KDE4, Xubuntu, Synaptics, Composing, Coding with EmacsSpeak
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
I'm a Windows power user relying mostly on synthetic speech but also
using a bit of magnification and the unmagnified screen to get around.
Nowadays Linux would seem like a viable platform for making music as
well, in addition to programming in. Unixisms I like include especially
Perl, regular expressions and lately LaTeX, all on the WIn32 side
currently. But despite being sight impaired, I'm still a GUI fan.
I have a couple of questions on the state of Linux accessibility:
1. I tried Gutsy when it came out in VmWare but found out that you can
not use the convenient, graphical package manager without having to
spawn another instance of the screen reader for security reasons.
failing to know how to do this was a major hurdle personally. So does
anyone know if this will be fixed in the up coming Ubuntu release? I'm
planning to give it a try in VmWare or Wubi as well. In comparison, when
UAC kicks around in Vista Narrator knows how to reboot itself as needed.
I know Orca is much more customizable than Narrator, but that's beside
the point.
2. When will KDE 4 be accessible as a screen reader user, what reader do
they go with, and why haven't they updated their accessibility page for
literally years? Personally, the little I've used it in VmWare, I simply
find Gnome uninspiring, annoyingly Windows like in bad keyboard
usability, and lacking the huge amount of configurability I've love as a
power user and strongly associate with Linux. I also need to tweak
custom colors for high contrast and KDE's options for these were
graphical, neat and so much more powerful. in contrast, Gnome had no
graphical color adjustments for years, and even these days, the
adjustments are very basic. Enough to get around, but as annoyingly
limited, as the classic colors in Windows, for no obvious reason. I hate
that.
The fact that all my sighted LInux friends do use KDE, actively bash
Gnome and generally only know about KDE does contribute to this, too.
In addition to getting accessible music software and highly intelligible
speech, I would say that geting my hands at KDE properly is one big
thing I'm eagerly waiting for in the future.
3. Will Xubuntu have Orca some day? contrary to my expectations though
being light it also does use GTK+, meaning Orca should be able to read
that environment, too. I'm hoping their desktop might be more KDE-like
than Gnome and it would also make a much lighter testing environment in
a VmWare virtual machine. Having tested the 7.10 Xubuntu release, I
didn't find Orca at all in the run box with alt+f2.
4. Is there an easy way of getting eSPeak to work with EmacsSpeak? I've
heard so much about Emacs that I'd like to give it a try some day. I
really need eSpeak since it is so much more intelligible than Festival
is and nowadays, due to me suggesting it and testing it a bit, speaks
Finnish, too, which is crucial in e-mail and books. Despite not being a
big fan of the command line when not wearing my programmer hat, I'm a
big fan of dedicated tools, like good text editors.
5. Are the apps for making music in LInux accessible? I know Ardour uses
GTK2 and since Audacity's widgets are rather native in Windows, I reckon
they are in LInux, too. Howabout ROse Garden and the piano roll in
particular? One of the key requirements for me to use the piano roll in
Sonar is its full zoom. And Sound FOrge is so much more accessible with
light on dark waveform colors, so I'm hoping these are changeable in
Audacity as well. I would like to control multiple MIDI syhnths, do a
bit of multi track recording and if I get the keyboard focus to
accessible soft synth panels, that would rock. I kinda like ChucK as a
sort of poor man's NI Reaktor, all be it with much lower level
programming. ALl this would require getting my M-Audio Audiophile 192
and MidiSport 4X4 working, however, in addition to RealTek sound for
Orca. Does LInux make it hard to manage which audio apps use which
outputs?
6. Is there dedicated support in emacsSpeak for blind programming or
would it be easy to add? When reviewing someone else's code I know to be
syntatctically correct, I would really like it to not read each and
every paren, by convention, and also by using a language parser, read
the meaning of operators rather than the raw symbols, and in a sensible
order, too, though only Perl can parse Perl. Consider:
++$f{$_} for grep { /\w/ } map { split('', lc) } <>;
It could be read:
preinc lookup defVar in hash f
for call grep2
g1: block match regexp word char end regexp. end block
g2: call map2
m1: block call split2
s1: empty string,
s2: call lc0, end block, end m1
m2: null handle, end g2
This is still much easier to parse mentally than:
plus plus dollar f left brace dollar under line right brace for grep
left brace and so on.
Oddly, I still like the PErl syntax, since I also use a bit of
magnification to manage it. I also know a blind guy in blind programming
whose a Perl fan. IF this is possible in emacs speak, I would really
like to read the outer most list processing first i.e. the order the
list functions are evaluated not written in.
Proper reading of indentation in Python, too, would be extremely useful.
And to resurrect an idea we had with a LInux friend of mine, howabout a
singing lisp development system. Which would, due to the regular
language structure, rather than reading out parentheses, change the
pitch accordingly in a user specifiable musical scale and monotone
intonation. With a bit of training that could actually be preferrable to
hearing all the parens. That lead us to think of Lisp songs in addition
to Perl poetry, <smile>.
--
With kind regards Veli-Pekka Tätilä (vta...@mail.student.oulu.fi)
Accessibility, game music, synthesizers and programming:
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila
hermann
> I have a couple of questions on the state of Linux accessibility:
>
> 1. I tried Gutsy when it came out in VmWare but found out that you can
> not use the convenient, graphical package manager without having to
> spawn another instance of the screen reader for security reasons.
> failing to know how to do this was a major hurdle personally. So does
> anyone know if this will be fixed in the up coming Ubuntu release? I'm
> planning to give it a try in VmWare or Wubi as well. In comparison, when
Do you read the Orca list? If so, check out Luke Yellavich's mail on
the new accessibility features of Hardy; there is some improvement, but
still work to do.
> 2. When will KDE 4 be accessible as a screen reader user, what reader do
> they go with, and why haven't they updated their accessibility page for
> literally years? Personally, the little I've used it in VmWare, I simply
> find Gnome uninspiring, annoyingly Windows like in bad keyboard
> usability, and lacking the huge amount of configurability I've love as a
> power user and strongly associate with Linux. I also need to tweak
> custom colors for high contrast and KDE's options for these were
> graphical, neat and so much more powerful. in contrast, Gnome had no
> graphical color adjustments for years, and even these days, the
> adjustments are very basic. Enough to get around, but as annoyingly
> limited, as the classic colors in Windows, for no obvious reason. I hate
> that.
>
> The fact that all my sighted LInux friends do use KDE, actively bash
> Gnome and generally only know about KDE does contribute to this, too.
> In addition to getting accessible music software and highly intelligible
> speech, I would say that geting my hands at KDE properly is one big
> thing I'm eagerly waiting for in the future.
As far as I know, there's no screen reader in KDE, and I suspect that
will last for a while. To refer again to the Orca list, they are often
talking about QT support, so that KDE and its apps can be used with
Orca, but this is - in my view - wishful thinking till nowadays.
> 3. Will Xubuntu have Orca some day? contrary to my expectations though
> being light it also does use GTK+, meaning Orca should be able to read
> that environment, too. I'm hoping their desktop might be more KDE-like
> than Gnome and it would also make a much lighter testing environment in
> a VmWare virtual machine. Having tested the 7.10 Xubuntu release, I
> didn't find Orca at all in the run box with alt+f2.
Again no. The Ubuntu team is concentrading on accessibility for Ubuntu
under Gnome.
> 4. Is there an easy way of getting eSPeak to work with EmacsSpeak? I've
> heard so much about Emacs that I'd like to give it a try some day. I
> really need eSpeak since it is so much more intelligible than Festival
> is and nowadays, due to me suggesting it and testing it a bit, speaks
> Finnish, too, which is crucial in e-mail and books. Despite not being a
> big fan of the command line when not wearing my programmer hat, I'm a
> big fan of dedicated tools, like good text editors.
Try Speech-dispatcher and Speechd-el. You need both packages, since
Speechd-el is based on Speech-dispatcher. There is no need for
Emacspeak and its server anymore; Speechd-el provides speech for the
normal Emacs editor. (I'm writing this with Emacs and Speechd-el).
Hermann
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
> Veli-Pekka Tätilä <vta...@mail.student.oulu.fi> writes:
> > I have a couple of questions on the state of Linux accessibility:
> >
> > 1. I tried Gutsy when it came out in VmWare but found out that you can
> > not use the convenient, graphical package manager without having to
> > anyone know if this will be fixed in the up coming Ubuntu release? I'm
> the new accessibility features of Hardy;
good enough experience out of Linux to seriously start using it. At any
rate I'm going to download Hardy now and try the Wubi installer with my
native hardware. Much better in terms of responsiveness and 3D
accelerated graphics than VmWare. 3D support, which I just learned, is
needed to have a full screen magnified view.
I downloaded and browsed through the March archive of the orca mailing
list and found out several interesting things. The most important is
that Ubuntu folks have managed to create an installer that neatly talks
through the whole thing without having to do any magic to get that
working from the end user point of view. That just rocks and is
something Windows still is not able to offer in a similar package.
They've also managed to configure Pulse Audio in such a way as to work
with speech, if I understood things correctly. Changing the output of
your speech synth, in a multi out system, though seemed non-trivial. In
Win Blows it can be done graphically, oh well.
The other major thing is that as you state later on KDE 4 support really
isn't there. THe problem is, lack of commitment and settling on the
particular technological framework needed for accessibility and
inter-process communication, the way I see it. I've also read that some
of the main menus in Xubuntu won't work, since they concentrate on Gnome
accessibility sadly enough. I see the rationale but I just don't like
Gnome very much.
I think one of the weaknesses of Linux accessibility is that there are
several competing environments only one of which is accessible at the
moment, so there's no choice for blind folks. On the GUI library side
you have QT, meaning SKype doesn't speak, TK meaning many Perl scripts
with a GUi don't speak, either, and other less frequently used
libraries. I think that Apple is in a very strong position here. ONly
one native library, as in Windows, but unlike in Windows, however, they
generally don't skin or customize just for the sake of visual coolness.
the net result is that more apps should be accessible out of the box.
> > 4. Is there an easy way of getting eSPeak to work with EmacsSpeak?
> Try Speech-dispatcher and Speechd-el. You need both packages, since
> Speechd-el is based on Speech-dispatcher. There is no need for
> Emacspeak and its server anymore;
Great to hear this, too. I'll try Emacs then. Also, are graphical ports
of Vim accessible? I've read a book about Vim and it made my mouth water
while still managing to be just a text editor, TM. If I could get a
Gnomeish port of Vim I could use it as a LInux equivalent of, say,
NoteTab Pro. By far whose most important and hugely time saving feature
is the ability to do PCRe regular expression matching. Saves me tens of
minutes of time on a daily basis avoiding linear speech listening. I
know LInux is very strong in regexp support, and PCRe regexp are from
Perl anyway, so I should have no worries there. Perl will work much
better in Linux, too.
hermann
>> > 1. I tried Gutsy when it came out in VmWare but found out that you can
>> > not use the convenient, graphical package manager without having to
>> > spawn another instance of the screen reader for security reasons. <snip>
>> > anyone know if this will be fixed in the up coming Ubuntu release? I'm
>> Do you read the Orca list? If so, check out Luke Yellavich's mail on
>> the new accessibility features of Hardy;
> Ah thanks for the tip. I reckon I should join the Orca list once I get
> good enough experience out of Linux to seriously start using it. At any
> rate I'm going to download Hardy now and try the Wubi installer with my
> native hardware. Much better in terms of responsiveness and 3D
> accelerated graphics than VmWare. 3D support, which I just learned, is
> needed to have a full screen magnified view.
>
> I downloaded and browsed through the March archive of the orca mailing
> list and found out several interesting things. The most important is
> that Ubuntu folks have managed to create an installer that neatly talks
> through the whole thing without having to do any magic to get that
> working from the end user point of view. That just rocks and is
> something Windows still is not able to offer in a similar package.
I guess you talking about the April archive; if not, check it for the
very latest news on that subject.
> They've also managed to configure Pulse Audio in such a way as to work
> with speech, if I understood things correctly. Changing the output of
> your speech synth, in a multi out system, though seemed non-trivial. In
> Win Blows it can be done graphically, oh well.
And that's a big disadvantage. If you want to use Pulseaudio and Orca
and leave the settings as they are, everything is fine. But setting up
SD as an alternative speech system to use it in either console or GUI,
you get in trouble. That needs improvement.
> The other major thing is that as you state later on KDE 4 support really
> isn't there. THe problem is, lack of commitment and settling on the
> particular technological framework needed for accessibility and
> inter-process communication, the way I see it. I've also read that some
> of the main menus in Xubuntu won't work, since they concentrate on Gnome
> accessibility sadly enough. I see the rationale but I just don't like
> Gnome very much.
>
> I think one of the weaknesses of Linux accessibility is that there are
> several competing environments only one of which is accessible at the
> moment, so there's no choice for blind folks. On the GUI library side
> you have QT, meaning SKype doesn't speak, TK meaning many Perl scripts
> with a GUi don't speak, either, and other less frequently used
> libraries. I think that Apple is in a very strong position here. ONly
> one native library, as in Windows, but unlike in Windows, however, they
> generally don't skin or customize just for the sake of visual coolness.
> the net result is that more apps should be accessible out of the box.
Apple is propritarian software, and that means that only one or a few
persons decide how the system is constructed. Open source means that
everyone can do what he/she wants, and [I think it is impossible to
implement standards. Who is to decide what these standards are, and
who has the power to force their implementation?
>> > 4. Is there an easy way of getting eSPeak to work with EmacsSpeak?
>> Try Speech-dispatcher and Speechd-el. You need both packages, since
>> Speechd-el is based on Speech-dispatcher. There is no need for
>> Emacspeak and its server anymore;
> Great to hear this, too. I'll try Emacs then. Also, are graphical ports
> of Vim accessible? I've read a book about Vim and it made my mouth water
I know nothing about Vim, indeed I don't like it. And as a
speech/braille only user, I don't have access to graphical programs,
unless they are fully supported by Orca, and I think Gvim, like
graphical Emacs, is not supported (but Speechd-el also works in the
Gnome terminal).
Hermann
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
And hope you don't mind the snippage. I'm basically going to post some
new questions in the same thread, since you very kindly answered my old
ones, and I know you follow this thread.
Ok, I've installed hardy today using Wubi to evaluate it as a file in
Windows. REminds me of the old BeOS 5 installation in that regard.
Except that this is much easier. I could even specify that I wanted to
start with a screen reader and now after having answered a handful of
accessible Windows dialogs have a dual boot option. I can hit enter to
launch WIndows or down and enter to launch Ubuntu now.
Even my mAudio Audiophile 192 sound card was picked up and configured by
Linux as was the screen resolution, system time zone, keyboard and a
great many other things. I've even managed to duplicate my windows
classic color scheme already and set up a decent Magnifier-like windowed
magnifier in addition to eSpeak.
I've got several questions and some gripes about Orca, roughly in the
order of importance.
Q1: When I'm asked for my password, how do I ensure that Orca can read
the screens after that? I tried sudo orca, or something like that, but
it neither recalled my Orca settings nor came up speaking the window.
What's the recommended way to deal with synaptics and Orca anyway?
Trying out new software is one of the first things I'd like to try. I've
Googled a bit but came up enpty handed.
Q2: How do I read the Orca help using Orca itself? I can scroll around
the help window but nothing is spoken. Is there a keyboard help mode? In
particular I'd really need shortcuts for toggling full screen
magnification on and off and switching the speech language between US
English and Finnish.
Q3: Braille doesn't work at all though seems enabled in Orca. My Display
is the USB based Braille Voyager. Any hints as to what I could try?
And now the gripes. These aren't really questions:
G1: eSpeak doesn't go as fast as I'd like even at the fastest graphical
speed, and there's a bit of lag before it speaks, which slows down my
work slightly.
G2: Orca says the checked state of a check box after the box, not before
it. I prefer the before setting since I can tell faster, then, based
solely on the state, that it is a check box and whether it is checked.
G3: I would really like ORca to interrupt the speech when new content
comes about. I've set up my key repeat rate very high So if I go in the
ORca prefs, hold tab for several seconds and don't press anything, Orca
keeps babbling old and meaningless settings for tens of seconds
afterwords. What I'd like, to cut to the latest prompts, would be the
option of flusshing any unspoken content when ever new content to be
spoken comes about. This is a real problem in using the cursor keys with
repeat to skip forward an indeterminate amount of menu items and trying
to listen to what comes next after that skip.
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
questions, and come up with new one's too.
> Q1: When I'm asked for my password, how do I ensure that Orca can read
> the screens after that?
The full instructions to work around this, which still requires user
intervention, are here:
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/SysAdmin
Oddly after following them to the letter launching admin tools from the
Gnome panel still does not make them speak. I saw Hermann's thread about
this, too. Did you ever get it solved? Currently it seems the command
line is required, maybe I could do a bit of Perl scripting ...
> I tried sudo orca, or something like that
Sudo su
And then whatever commands I want to run as root, ar the way to go.
> Q2: How do I read the Orca help using Orca itself?
Sadly, and I view this as a biggy, help is not natively accessible due
to Gnome's browser integration. If they had made it so pluggable as to
be able to use FireFox to render the help there would be no problem. A
lot of software specific fixes and help in Orca, including Firefox
navigation, is here:
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/AccessibleApps
The instructions for using help are here:
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/Yelp#details
For Orca hotkeys:
http://live.gnome.org/Orca/KeyboardCommands
I actually prefer the laptop layout even on the desktop. Since I veyr
rarely use the numpad but touch type all the time. Not to mention caps
plus space is much easier than ins plus space.
> Is there a keyboard help mode?
Orca key plus h, and esc to get out of it. Orca key is insert or caps
depending on the layout.
> shortcuts for toggling full screen magnification on and off
Probably not doable without scripting. No hotkey was listed.
> and switching the speech language between US English and Finnish.
Again nope. The languages are different voices, I'm not sure if there's
even a concept of language in how Orca sees eSpeak.
> Q3: Braille doesn't work at all though seems enabled in Orca.
Appears that I have to install BrlTTY separately to get this working.
Any tips how to configure it, have it auto start and install it using
Synaptic in the first place, would be appreciated.
PS: the biggest motivation to use LInux now for me is to try the apps I
would use if I could:
namely Thunder Bird and Firefox. Neither is supported by Supernova in
Windows.
Though I still hugely miss Meridian One Orpheus 3.x in LInux. It does
mean everything is half as slow, simply because eSpeak is neither as
snappy nor as intelligible. Oh what vendor lock-in. ORpheus is not
ported to LInux, it is Windows and CE only.
hermann
> Hi, After some Googling I've been able to answer some of my own
> questions, and come up with new one's too.
>
>> Q1: When I'm asked for my password, how do I ensure that Orca can read
>> the screens after that?
> The full instructions to work around this, which still requires user
> intervention, are here:
> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/SysAdmin
> Oddly after following them to the letter launching admin tools from the
> Gnome panel still does not make them speak. I saw Hermann's thread about
> this, too. Did you ever get it solved? Currently it seems the command
> line is required, maybe I could do a bit of Perl scripting ...
Did you place the .orbitrc file in your roots home directory?
If so, there's an easier way to access the admin apps:
Open a gnome-terminal and type:
sudo app-name
Example:
sudo network-admin
to access your network settings.
You're asked for your _user_ password. After having typed it the
program starts from the terminal without any problems.
>> I tried sudo orca, or something like that
> Sudo su
> And then whatever commands I want to run as root, ar the way to go.
See above.
>> Q3: Braille doesn't work at all though seems enabled in Orca.
> Appears that I have to install BrlTTY separately to get this working.
> Any tips how to configure it, have it auto start and install it using
> Synaptic in the first place, would be appreciated.
You mustn't install brltty, because it still exists.
Note: Braille support in Orca is only available, if you started brltty
in the text console or with your system.
I wonder why the display wasn't recognized with the system start.
To start brltty manually, do the following:
Open a text console and type:
sudo brltty -t xx
where "xx" stands for your Finish braille table. Brltty recognizes your
Voyager and your USB connection automatically. (am I right with that
display and connection?)
To start it permanently, you shouls first edit your /etc/brltty.conf
to check for the correct parameters. Read the file, it's self
explanatory.
Then type the following in a text console:
sudo update-rc.d brltty defaults
This sets startup links.
Finally make sure that the use of a braille display is checked in the
Orca preferences.
Hermann
P.S.: I recommend to join the Orca list.
hermann
> Hi Hermann,
> And hope you don't mind the snippage. I'm basically going to post some
> new questions in the same thread, since you very kindly answered my old
> ones, and I know you follow this thread.
>
> Ok, I've installed hardy today using Wubi to evaluate it as a file in
> Windows. REminds me of the old BeOS 5 installation in that regard.
This file must be about 3 GB in size. Where did you install it, in a NTFS
or a FAT32 partition? In the latter case i wonder, because you cannot
write such big files in FAT32.
[...]
> And now the gripes. These aren't really questions:
>
> G1: eSpeak doesn't go as fast as I'd like even at the fastest graphical
> speed, and there's a bit of lag before it speaks, which slows down my
> work slightly.
Cannot confirm this. If you turn speed up to 100%, you should no
longer be able to understand anything. The responsiveness of Espeak
seems pretty good to me.
Maybe it's a result of the special installation.
> G2: Orca says the checked state of a check box after the box, not before
> it. I prefer the before setting since I can tell faster, then, based
> solely on the state, that it is a check box and whether it is checked.
That's the way Orca works till now. I think this is better discussed
in the Orca list.
> G3: I would really like ORca to interrupt the speech when new content
> comes about. I've set up my key repeat rate very high So if I go in the
> ORca prefs, hold tab for several seconds and don't press anything, Orca
> keeps babbling old and meaningless settings for tens of seconds
> afterwords. What I'd like, to cut to the latest prompts, would be the
> option of flusshing any unspoken content when ever new content to be
> spoken comes about. This is a real problem in using the cursor keys with
> repeat to skip forward an indeterminate amount of menu items and trying
> to listen to what comes next after that skip.
Hope I've understood you right: This happens when you quickly scroll a dialog
or a file with a large content, or does it happen when you press the
control key while reading? In the latter case this must be a bug, but
in the first case your observations are right: This is one of the
annoying facts of Orca. It happens often when Orca does not respond
immediately in a dialog and you press tab several times. Orca is
silent and suddenly starts to run. I guess this is due to
inappropriate buffering. But the same: It should be discussed in the
Orca list.
Hermann
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
> > Windows. REminds me of the old BeOS 5 installation in that regard.
> This file must be about 3 GB in size.
files actually, not just one, and yes I'm using NTFS.
> > G1: eSpeak doesn't go as fast as I'd like even at the fastest graphical
> > speed, <snip>
> Cannot confirm this. If you turn speed up to 100%, you should no
> longer be able to understand anything.
Well, I can, and using Orpheus in Windows, I can go even much faster
with intelligible results. I've been using synthetic speech in US
English for about 10 years now, though am not a native speaker.
> The responsiveness of Espeak seems pretty good to me.
Actually it was not quite as bad as I recalled. The trouble is that some
settings are very slow, too. When you change themes, for example, it
takes several seconds for the speech to react. But this is a biggy in
Gnome responsiveness, rather than Orca. I stand corrected.
> > G2: Orca says the checked state of a check box after the box, not before <snip>
> That's the way Orca works till now. I think this is better discussed
> in the Orca list.
Agreed, I'll consider joining. regarding my third and final point your
impression about holding tab for a while was what I was after. good to
hear this Orca babbling away old stuff is not just an issue on my
machine. I recall things were much much worse back in Gnopernicus and
Debian, when I got speech working for the first time several years back.
LInux has advanced an amazing amount if we compare to the MS supplied
Windows tools. Magnifier was there in 98 and vista's Narrator is not
even in the same ballpark as Orca.
At any rate, in my other reply to this thraed, could you offer any input
as to how to get synaptic speaking with Orca? That is the biggest hurdle
at the moment. Creating the dot orbit rc file in the root's home dir
using nano, didn't help in my case.
Also any ideas for good Gnome file managers?
I use xplorer in Windows and it seems far more powerful than Nautilus
based on its docs. I've gotten used to several tabs in one window, two
panes for source and destination, wildcard filtering and other niceties.
I saw a reference to Gnome commander, do you know if it is any good and
equally importantly accessible?
hermann
[...]
>> > G1: eSpeak doesn't go as fast as I'd like even at the fastest graphical
>> > speed, <snip>
>> Cannot confirm this. If you turn speed up to 100%, you should no
>> longer be able to understand anything.
> Well, I can, and using Orpheus in Windows, I can go even much faster
> with intelligible results. I've been using synthetic speech in US
> English for about 10 years now, though am not a native speaker.
>
>> The responsiveness of Espeak seems pretty good to me.
> Actually it was not quite as bad as I recalled. The trouble is that some
> settings are very slow, too. When you change themes, for example, it
> takes several seconds for the speech to react. But this is a biggy in
> Gnome responsiveness, rather than Orca. I stand corrected.
OK, Gnome reacts sometimes a bit slow, not to compare with the
responsiveness of text Linux. But one addition:
Today I checked out Wubi, and I found a note that disk performance
might be reduced compared to an install on an originally Linux
partition; so keep this in mind.
[...]
> At any rate, in my other reply to this thraed, could you offer any input
> as to how to get synaptic speaking with Orca? That is the biggest hurdle
> at the moment. Creating the dot orbit rc file in the root's home dir
> using nano, didn't help in my case.
Do you know what has to be written in this file? Don't know it by
heart, but I think in the Orca wiki you can find the right hints; but
I guess you already read the page.
What's the exact name of Synaptic? Provided it is "synaptic", what's
the result of:
sudo synaptic
invoked from the Gnome terminal?
If you cannot use synaptic, I suspect you must use the text console
tools apt-get and aptitude, which I personally prefer.
> Also any ideas for good Gnome file managers?
> I use xplorer in Windows and it seems far more powerful than Nautilus
> based on its docs. I've gotten used to several tabs in one window, two
> panes for source and destination, wildcard filtering and other niceties.
One questionfor understanding: you don't talk about the Windows
Explorer? I guess the tool is really called "xplorer". I don't
remember having seen such features in MS Windows Explorer.
> I saw a reference to Gnome commander, do you know if it is any good and
> equally importantly accessible?
No. Unfortunately not all programs written for Gnome are accessible
in the same amount, even if the programers used gtk++.
I know the file manager Midnight Commander (mc), but it is again a
tool for the console, but it might be used in Gnome terminal too.
Hermann
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
achieved. Braille, speech and magnification as well as my custom color
scheme and the admin tools do work with Orca now, W00T. It took hours of
work but thanks to your posts, the Gnome live Wiki and a bit of
experimentation I got things solved. if I spend any extended time with
LInux, which depends on whether there's any real killer software I
cannot have in Windows, I'll definitely join the Orca list as promised,
hehe. hope that includes some apps for making music and programming. I'm
a big Perl fan at any rate.
I'm exploring and evaluating things now.
In the mean time, since I found Wubi a very excellent platform for
trying out LInux and figured out many other people have much the same
issues I do, I've created this little Web page walking you through the
basics assuming a bit of familiarity with Linux. here you are:
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/linux_access.html
I'm definitely a noob, though, despite having used the MS variety
including MS-DOS for about 15 years now. Quite annoying being migrated
from local guru status to total newbdom. The only things that are sort
of familiar are Unixisms borrowed from DOs, regular expressions,
everything borrowed to Perl from Unix and Windowsness of Gnome, briefly
put.
The basic problem I, and I imagine many other people, have, when
comparing Linux and Windows access and I realize this is very much
unfair, is comparing the current state of beta Windos screen reader
access of Supernova with the free Linux offerings and complaining. To be
fair, one should compare the free as in beer offerings, NVDA and System
Access to Go, in stead.
Veli-Pekka Tätilä
before I upset Unix folks, a correction:
Wrong preposition Unixisms borrowed to DOs, not from. I do realize most
of what was any good in DOs was just watered down Unix for dummies and
ripping most features out. Nough said, I'm going to get some sleep now.
hermann
> trying out LInux and figured out many other people have much the same
> issues I do, I've created this little Web page walking you through the
> basics assuming a bit of familiarity with Linux. here you are:
>
> http://www.student.oulu.fi/~vtatila/linux_access.html
I've read the page, and I think it is OK.
But two questions:
1. Are there no text consoles in this installation? For those who are
familiar with the text mode, it's preferable to use a console instead
of the Gnome terminal.
2. Why do you recommend different editors for different tasks? I think
it's a bit confusing to use nano, vim and gedit to edit 3 files. I
personally do prefer nano, and would tend to do all work with it.
Just a personal note: I don't like vim; perceiving it as confusing.
> The basic problem I, and I imagine many other people, have, when
> comparing Linux and Windows access and I realize this is very much
> unfair, is comparing the current state of beta Windos screen reader
> access of Supernova with the free Linux offerings and complaining. To be
> fair, one should compare the free as in beer offerings, NVDA and System
> Access to Go, in stead.
Why is Supernova beta? The comparism may not be fair, but on the other
hand, the Linux screen reader developers have no choice; they have to
catch up with the Windows development, since FS, GW-Micro and Dolphin
don't sleep.
Hermann