Continuity questions
Ueno
I have some questions that has been nagging me ever since I got into Batman.
I'm fairly new to Batman so apologies if these questions' been done to
death.
First of all, in 'Year One,' Gordon's wife was Barbara, and she was pregnant
and had a BOY, but in 'Killing Joke,' Barbara was his DAUGHTER. I even read
somewhere that Barbara that was crippled by the Joker was Gordon's NIECE.
Now that I just finished NML, I noticed that Gordon's wife is named 'Sarah.'
If someone could explain this all to me, or point me to a web page that has
the info.
Thanks for any help!
Loren Di Iorio
: First of all, in 'Year One,' Gordon's wife was Barbara, and
: she was pregnant and had a BOY, but in 'Killing Joke,'
: Barbara was his DAUGHTER.
In Y1, Jim's wife was named Barbara, yes. They had a son,
James Jr. After being fed up with Jim's obsession with his work
on the force, Barbara took James Jr. back with her to Chicago,
where Jim and Barbara used to live.
The redhead who's become known as Jim's daughter is really
the daughter of his brother and sister-in-law, Roger and Thelma
Gordon. Jim took her in, when Thelma and Roger were killed
in a car accident.
: I even read somewhere that Barbara that was crippled by the
: Joker was Gordon's NIECE.
This is a recent development in an issue of GK, around #7 or so.
It's not verified that Barbara *is* his niece, only that the
possibility exists.
: Now that I just finished NML, I noticed that Gordon's wife is
: named 'Sarah.'
Sarah Essen (whom I thought appeared in Y1 somewhere)
worked with Jim in the GCPD, and was married to him after
Jim and Barbara separated.
...Loren
Christopher Adams
>> is named 'Sarah.'
>
> Sarah Essen (whom I thought appeared in Y1 somewhere)
> worked with Jim in the GCPD, and was married to him after
> Jim and Barbara separated.
Yes. In fact, Jim Gordon and Sarah Essen had a brief affair in the course
of "Year One"; although he confessed to Barbara and she forgave him, this
may have been another part of why she went back to Chicago.
--
Chris "The Tramp" Adams
I am the way of all flesh.
"Lion King? Abolutely. Soundtrack? Yes."
XEAUIK EREF EM-NEMMET
Your Procreative Organ Is Next
Upon The Sacrificial Altar.
Josh Dull
Prior to "Batman: Year One", Barbara Gordon was James Gordon's
daughter.
Jim's wife in "Year One" just happens to share the same name. Because
Barbara the daughther didn't appear in "Year One", later writers had to
explain this. What they came up with was Jim's orphaned niece, Barbara,
whom he adopted.
This Barbara would go on to become Batgirl, and was shot by The Joker
in "The Killing Joke". Still wheelchair bound she know serves as the
information
broker Oracle.
Because of strains on their marriage, Barbara the wife divorced Jim and took
their son with her.
Later Jim would reunite with Sarah Essen, the woman he fell for in "Year
One",
and they eventually married.
Years later evidence would surface that indicates Jim had an affair with his
sister-in-
law that resulted in Barabara. Whether it's true or not (or will be brought
up
ever again) has yet to be seen.
Josh
Loren Di Iorio
: This is a recent development in an issue of GK, around #7 or so.
: It's not verified that Barbara *is* his niece, only that the
: possibility exists.
Silly Loren - I shoulda said, "It's not verified that Barbara is
his daughter..." I got mixed up. :)
...Loren
Rayctate
>I have some questions that has been nagging me ever since I got into Batman.
>I'm fairly new to Batman so apologies if these questions' been done to
>death.
That never stopped us before.
>First of all, in 'Year One,' Gordon's wife was Barbara, and she was pregnant
>and had a BOY, but in 'Killing Joke,' Barbara was his DAUGHTER. I even read
>somewhere that Barbara that was crippled by the Joker was Gordon's NIECE.
Okay, "Killing Joke" was intended to be an imaginary story.
It was an elseworlds novel before the elseworlds novel--you can may note a
framed photo of Batman, Batwoman--Kathy Kane, Bat-Girl--Betty Kane, Bat Mite
and Ace the Bathound.
None of these characters existed in the new singular universe at the time.
In the new universe, Barbara's mother is killed in an auto accident, and her
father I believe commits suicide.
She is then adopted by Jim and Barbara Gordon. It's total rubbish when you get
right down to it, and you shouldn't even bother remembering it since everybody
else chooses to ignore it while stubbornly refusing to accept Dr. Fate,
Kryptonian science and the Purple Healing Ray of the Amazons as means to get
Batgirl back in action.
>I even read somewhere that Barbara that >was crippled by the Joker was
Gordon's >NIECE.
Total garbage. The Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke was THE Barbara Gordon.
Alan Moore was dealing with the icons. He was not concerned with what else was
going on around him. This is why Batman drives the near original Batmobile.
This is why Batman and the Joker share a history together--otherwise, they
would have known each other and hated each other for about a year or two.
That's not nearly enough.
This is why the story has impact. Alan Moore is saying okay imagine if you
will a world where only Batman and his Family exists and existed. Now, let's
have the Joker do something reprehensible. Something that not only touches us
on a human level but on a deep personal level. He cripples Batgirl. Perhaps,
the best scene in the whole book is Batman going to see her in the hospital.
"Barbara...It's me Bruce."
That lets you know. This is not just Batman visiting the Commisioner's
daughter because he feels bad. This is Batman visiting a fallen comrade who
has saved his life and the JLA's lives time and again. This is somebody whom
he considers a friend and family.
>Now that I just finished NML, I noticed that Gordon's wife is named 'Sarah.'
>If someone could explain this all to me, or point me to a web page that has
>the info.
Got married again. No need to worry about her. She's as dead as a Dalek.
Ray
"I'm half-human, on my mother's side."--The eighth Doctor
jayembee
> Okay, "Killing Joke" was intended to be an imaginary story.
No, it wasn't.
> It was an elseworlds novel before the elseworlds novel--you can
> may note a framed photo of Batman, Batwoman--Kathy Kane,
> Bat-Girl--Betty Kane, Bat Mite and Ace the Bathound.
> None of these characters existed in the new singular universe at
> the time.
That photo was not meant to be taken literally within the context
of the story. It was an in-joke, an Easter Egg, if you will. It has no
bearing on the continuity status of the story at hand.
> In the new universe, Barbara's mother is killed in an auto accident,
> and her father I believe commits suicide.
Correct.
> She is then adopted by Jim and Barbara Gordon. It's total rubbish
> when you get right down to it,
Why? The only problem involved is reconciling it with the current
canonical timeline, but then, a *lot* of things are difficult to
reconcile with the current canonical timeline.
> and you shouldn't even bother remembering it since everybody
> else chooses to ignore it while stubbornly refusing to accept Dr.
> Fate, Kryptonian science and the Purple Healing Ray of the
> Amazons as means to get Batgirl back in action.
No one ignores it. They just choose not to dwell on it, because
it effectively makes no difference in how the character relates
to everyone else, especially Commissioner Gordon. He and
Barbara are *emotionally* father and daughter, regardless of
what her birth certificate might say.
>> I even read somewhere that Barbara that was crippled by
>> the Joker was Gordon's NIECE.
> Total garbage. The Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke was THE
> Barbara Gordon.
As opposed to what other Barbara Gordon?
> Alan Moore was dealing with the icons. He was not concerned
> with what else was going on around him.This is why Batman
> drives the near original Batmobile.
It's an artistic choice to evoke a certain mood. It's not indicative
of anything continuity-wise.
> This is why Batman and the Joker share a history together--
> otherwise, they would have known each other and hated each
> other for about a year or two. That's not nearly enough.
This makes no sense. In 1987, continuity wasn't only a year old.
In *external* terms, yes, it was. The "new continuity" Batman
had only been around since Miller's YEAR ONE. But the mistake
you're making is believing that everything that came after Y1
follows in a contiguous line. It doesn't. In continuity terms, Y1
was simply retelling Batman's origin story for the new continuity.
As such, it was set years in the past. The very next issue, BATMAN
#408 had a Batman who'd been fighting crime for years, not one
who'd just had his first adventure a month before.
> This is why the story has impact. Alan Moore is saying okay
> imagine if you will a world where only Batman and his Family
> exists and existed. Now, let's have the Joker do something
> reprehensible. Something that not only touches us on a human
> level but on a deep personal level. He cripples Batgirl. Perhaps,
> the best scene in the whole book is Batman going to see her in
> the hospital.
> "Barbara...It's me Bruce."
> That lets you know. This is not just Batman visiting the
> Commisioner's daughter because he feels bad. This is Batman
> visiting a fallen comrade who has saved his life and the JLA's
> lives time and again. This is somebody whom he considers a
> friend and family.
Exactly. But none of this is invalidated by TKJ being part of
current continuity.
-- jayembee (jerry period boyajian at-sign eds period com)
"Buster, this trip downriver has been truly special.
Downright Twainian in a Hitchcockian sort of way."
3.1415926535897932.....
rayc...@aol.com (Rayctate) wrote:
> Okay, "Killing Joke" was intended to be an imaginary story.
Really?
I don't think it's continuity was ever an issue. I recently read
"Artists on Comic Art", which features an interview with Brian Bolland.
The Killing Joke was actually produced because Brian wanted to do a
Batman story, and asked for his favourite writer, Alan, to be brought in
to script it for him.
For him, it was meant to be this super-tight, final-word Batman story,
but apparently Alan considered it "Just another Bat-book", which would
seem to indicate at the very least a lack of interest in the continuity
status of the plot.
> This is why the story has impact. Alan Moore is saying okay imagine
> if you will a world where only Batman and his Family exists and
> existed.
A lot of the best Bat-stories do work only when you completely ignore
the rest of the DCU. Batman's actions (and the reactions that accompany
them) are far too... human, and close to normal people to fit happily
in with the all-powerful, world-wrecking meta-human universe.
> Ray
__
/\thagoras
--
http://www.stsm.demon.co.uk/pythoughts/ - Updated 27/3/01
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