while Wayne is quick to accuse others of mental illness - and also tell them to consider Dragon's wisdom.... "It is good to remember that we outwardly criticize what we most vehemently deny in ourselves. "
He mentioned that the CoS attack on the Elmiran mission - run by some friends of his, conducting spiritual research, was - in his words, like a corporate takeover
"But the group in Elmira weathered it, resisted the worst of what was basically a hostile corporate raid. Harry and Avra were tough as nails and very dedicated to their group, and led one of the very few out of the original couple of hundred groups around the world that survived the initial onslaught that in most areas cleaned out the bank accounts totally, took peoples houses and businesses, and left them walking away dazed. Harry gathered with the people in their group, agreed to pull together, everybody put in a few more bucks to pay the rent and hire the lawyers and whatever, and agreed that when the storm blew over, when the ship came in, everyone would get happy: just the way Gentlemen Adventurers agreements have always worked. "
and it occured to me - that the "corporate" in question was CoS and the group in question was his friends harry and Av
yet despite his daunting discription of the event - I have never seen Wayne speak out against these actions by COS nor anyone refer to HP's opinion of them...
On 17 July, 17:27, HAPPYsamuri <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> "But the group in Elmira weathered it, resisted the worst of what was > basically a hostile corporate raid. Harry and Avra were tough as nails > and very dedicated to their group,
?
why would the group need H and A's dedication ?
was the "group" at risk from CoS ?
I thought the only people who would be at risk here would be those who had a contractual relationship with COS
and led one of the very few out of
> the original couple of hundred groups around the world that survived > the initial onslaught that in most areas cleaned out the bank accounts > totally, took peoples houses and businesses, and left them walking > away dazed. Harry gathered with the people in their group, agreed to > pull together, everybody put in a few more bucks to pay the rent and
pay the rent - who would benefit from this ?
did these people live in "group" accomodation ?
were they unable to (as Wayne so politely put's it) "get a job" and pay for their own accomodation ?
> hire the lawyers and whatever, and agreed that when the storm blew > over, when the ship came in, everyone would get happy: just the way > Gentlemen Adventurers agreements have always worked. "
WHEN the SHIP came in ?
a sailor keeps a ship afloat so he doesn't drown - no ones life was at stake was it?
a gentlemen makes an adventurers agreement in with the understanding that they recieve their share of the "success" of the "venture"
what was the "payoff" for this "venture" ?
what was the "venture" ?
paying the rent ? or hiring the float tank ?
10/10 for a romantic seafaring turn of phrase
shame H didn't know you at the time Wayne - you would have put him up if he couldn't pay his rent wouldn't you ?
waynemcmahon View profile More options 6 Dec 2005, 06:15 I don't disagree that Harry owned the mission, Jack. And though I've heard it was because he was the only one in the Elmira study group that would sign the contract with the C of S, I'm not sure I fully believe it. But also, wasn't it just one of several businesses that Harry owned at the time? I have my own reasons for believing that Harry was not in "complete and total endorsement" of Scientology because even his detractors claim he was also studying and pushing Bashar, Seth, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions and philosophies too.
We aren't talking Los Angeles here, Jack. We're talking a tiny "city" in the forgotten forests of upstate New York. The mission contract was more a blanket legal cover that allowed a variety of practices. And all this was way way back when Scientology was fun and there was no vicious military management and such. More than a few of us wish those days were back, but I'm never setting foot in ANY Scientology organisation again until it's reformed either internally or in the field they call "freezone." Even a few years ago I would had recommended it to friends, but those days are over.
I had heard that Harry was the originator of the term "free zone" and had a sign to that effect on his building. In fact, Eldon claimed that. That doesn't sound that
> waynemcmahon > View profile > More options 6 Dec 2005, 06:15 > I don't disagree that Harry owned the mission, Jack. And though I've > heard it was because he was the only one in the Elmira study group > that > would sign the contract with the C of S, I'm not sure I fully believe > it. But also, wasn't it just one of several businesses that Harry > owned at the time?
dunno Wayne - you're the one who visited his library around 87
> I have my own reasons for believing that Harry was not in "complete > and > total endorsement" of Scientology because even his detractors claim > he > was also studying and pushing Bashar, Seth, Buddhism, Hinduism and > other > religions and philosophies too.
why would you need his detractors opinion when you have seen his library ?
but business is business and contractual obligation is blind to ones philosophical or "church loyalties"
> We aren't talking Los Angeles here, Jack. We're talking a tiny "city" > in > the forgotten forests of upstate New York. The mission contract > was > more a blanket legal cover that allowed a variety of practices.
On Jul 17, 7:27 am, HAPPYsamuri <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> while Wayne is quick to accuse others of mental illness - and also > tell them to consider Dragon's wisdom.... > "It is good to remember that we outwardly criticize what we most > vehemently deny in ourselves. "
> He mentioned that the CoS attack on the Elmiran mission - run by some > friends of his, conducting spiritual research, was - in his words, > like a corporate takeover
Hap, For some history on the Cof$ assault on mission holders during the early 1980s, you might be interested in this lengthy (37-article) account by Mike Goldstein about his work with the late John Galusha. He was involved with Hubbard in the early days, and subsequently developed a spinoff technique called Idenics (which focuses mainly on identities and viewpoints). http://www.freezoneplanet.org/index.html
> "But the group in Elmira weathered it, resisted the worst of what was > basically a hostile corporate raid. Harry and Avra were tough as nails > and very dedicated to their group, and led one of the very few out of > the original couple of hundred groups around the world that survived > the initial onslaught that in most areas cleaned out the bank accounts > totally, took peoples houses and businesses, and left them walking > away dazed. Harry gathered with the people in their group, agreed to > pull together, everybody put in a few more bucks to pay the rent and > hire the lawyers and whatever, and agreed that when the storm blew > over, when the ship came in, everyone would get happy: just the way > Gentlemen Adventurers agreements have always worked. "
> and it occured to me - that the "corporate" in question was CoS and > the group in question was his friends harry and Av
> yet despite his daunting discription of the event - I have never seen > Wayne speak out against these actions by COS nor anyone refer to HP's > opinion of them...
On 19 July, 00:20, Eldon <EldonB...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hap, > For some history on the Cof$ assault on mission holders during the > early 1980s, you might be interested in this lengthy (37-article) > account by Mike Goldstein about his work with the late John Galusha. > He was involved with Hubbard in the early days, and subsequently > developed a spinoff technique called Idenics (which focuses mainly on > identities and viewpoints).http://www.freezoneplanet.org/index.html
so hard to get a historical perspective - i guess the US circa 74 was spawning lots of stuff like this post VN Nixon and the 60s
Werner - for instance
... this idea that it was a "group" and HP was a businessman who put his name on the contract cos no one else would - just seems a little naive - but then i suppose they were young at the time
but i can't help seeing a potential ambiguity in Wayne's retelling of the story
from one perspective they are a bunch of equals - spiritual researchers in an team working together on a gentlemen's adventurer's agreement
from another they are HP's group - and HP is justified in taking all the spoils of the gentlemen's agreement into spiritual research
either way the "group dynamic" here is unclear
------------
in my understand of group dynamics - the most charismatic member of the group is not always the most intelligent, or the best suited to leadership - dispite the advantages that charisma brings to leadership
and all this - few can doubt the effects my work has had on the collective - misses the effect of the collective or group on the individual's work...
that HP's library was important and helped "perculate" the work - is missing the effect of the 'people" around him - apparently a group od 'piritual researchers" we are lead to believe - or were the merely the "subjects" for HP's spiritual experimentation
how much "influence' did the "research" of these individuals in this happy group of collaboraters bring to H's body of knowledge ?
both at a "collective consciouness" level and a mere pragmatic one -
what if Margy hadn't hired the float tank - for instance
would the "material" have perculated in any other way at any other time ...
On Jul 17, 2:14 pm, HAPPYsamurai <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> the onslaught of the STORM
> On 17 July, 17:27, HAPPYsamuri <profstock...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > "But the group in Elmira weathered it, resisted the worst of what was > > basically a hostile corporate raid. Harry and Avra were tough as nails > > and very dedicated to their group,
> ?
Wayne is lying here, whether knowingly or not. (The intersect between his own delusions and attempts to delude others seems to be a broad gray area.)
The group in Elmira, according to Gale and others, had little idea about what was going on during the years that led up to the final court decision in 1986. The Scientology "finance police" came to examine the books, but there were two sets anyway -- and the accurate ones with the cash transactions weren't at the Mission.
It wasn't until after the court decision that Hari said, "Surprise! Your advance payments were for services that can no longer be delivered, and anyway, those have now become contributions to the legal defense fund. So tough shit; that's water under the bridge. Bui you can now start paying me all over again for the Avatar course, and I'll try to hypnotize you into thinking you created the mess I put you in, all by yourself."
> why would the group need H and A's dedication
It was the other way around.
> was the "group" at risk from CoS ?
In fact, Hari once stated to me that he sent some of the group's money to the Buffalo Scientology org. But apparently Scientology has no record of having received the payments. If they had, they would at least have delivered the services.
> I thought the only people who would be at risk here would be those who > had a contractual relationship with COS
> and led one of the very few out of
> > the original couple of hundred groups around the world that survived > > the initial onslaught that in most areas cleaned out the bank accounts > > totally, took peoples houses and businesses, and left them walking > > away dazed. Harry gathered with the people in their group, agreed to > > pull together, everybody put in a few more bucks to pay the rent and
> pay the rent - who would benefit from this ?
> did these people live in "group" accomodation ?
Those Scientology missions were not group endeavors. The operators were INDIVIDUAL Scientology mission holders with their own franchise operations. Some of the companies were for-profit and some were non- profit. Some of them, like Martin Samuels and Alan Walter, had chain operations. Others, like Ray Kemp and Bent Corydon, had large single- location operations that had upwards of a hundred staff members. Hari was a small-time operator by comparison.
> were they unable to (as Wayne so politely put's it) "get a job" and > pay for their own accomodation ?
> > hire the lawyers and whatever, and agreed that when the storm blew > > over, when the ship came in, everyone would get happy: just the way > > Gentlemen Adventurers agreements have always worked. "
> WHEN the SHIP came in ?
That's what Hari told people at the Scientology mission when they were paid next to nothing because "there was no money" and Avra was buying expensive bling. It was total extortion, according to people who were there, as described in the Elmira Gazette articles and The Wiz of Orlando.
It surprises you that the C of S, at war with Harry and hundreds of others, at war both in the courts and for hearts and minds, would claim they never got the student's money and that they should go sue Harry? The C of S stated policy for handling enemies is to DESTROY THEM UTTERLY. Now after 30 years of you complaining about them, you're crediting them with honesty and decency and fair business practice? Ha. You're a hypocrit but that's not news.
You also know that Gazette article was a plant by a couple of vicious failed Scientologists and that even the newspaper itself has asked you not to post it or use it for more of the libel that cost you $400,000 in Federal Court.
Eldon, it's been 20, 30, 40 years since some of these events in your life. Grow up.
>>>"But the group in Elmira weathered it, resisted the worst of what was >>>basically a hostile corporate raid. Harry and Avra were tough as nails >>>and very dedicated to their group,
>>?
> Wayne is lying here, whether knowingly or not. (The intersect between > his own delusions and attempts to delude others seems to be a broad > gray area.)
> The group in Elmira, according to Gale and others, had little idea > about what was going on during the years that led up to the final > court decision in 1986. The Scientology "finance police" came to > examine the books, but there were two sets anyway -- and the accurate > ones with the cash transactions weren't at the Mission.
> It wasn't until after the court decision that Hari said, "Surprise! > Your advance payments were for services that can no longer be > delivered, and anyway, those have now become contributions to the > legal defense fund. So tough shit; that's water under the bridge. Bui > you can now start paying me all over again for the Avatar course, and > I'll try to hypnotize you into thinking you created the mess I put you > in, all by yourself."
>>why would the group need H and A's dedication
> It was the other way around.
>>was the "group" at risk from CoS ?
> In fact, Hari once stated to me that he sent some of the group's money > to the Buffalo Scientology org. But apparently Scientology has no > record of having received the payments. If they had, they would at > least have delivered the services.
>>I thought the only people who would be at risk here would be those who >>had a contractual relationship with COS
>>and led one of the very few out of
>>>the original couple of hundred groups around the world that survived >>>the initial onslaught that in most areas cleaned out the bank accounts >>>totally, took peoples houses and businesses, and left them walking >>>away dazed. Harry gathered with the people in their group, agreed to >>>pull together, everybody put in a few more bucks to pay the rent and
>>pay the rent - who would benefit from this ?
>>did these people live in "group" accomodation ?
> Those Scientology missions were not group endeavors. The operators > were INDIVIDUAL Scientology mission holders with their own franchise > operations. Some of the companies were for-profit and some were non- > profit. Some of them, like Martin Samuels and Alan Walter, had chain > operations. Others, like Ray Kemp and Bent Corydon, had large single- > location operations that had upwards of a hundred staff members. Hari > was a small-time operator by comparison.
>>were they unable to (as Wayne so politely put's it) "get a job" and >>pay for their own accomodation ?
>>>hire the lawyers and whatever, and agreed that when the storm blew >>>over, when the ship came in, everyone would get happy: just the way >>>Gentlemen Adventurers agreements have always worked. "
>>WHEN the SHIP came in ?
> That's what Hari told people at the Scientology mission when they were > paid next to nothing because "there was no money" and Avra was buying > expensive bling. It was total extortion, according to people who were > there, as described in the Elmira Gazette articles and The Wiz of > Orlando.
>>a sailor keeps a ship afloat so he doesn't drown - no ones life was at >>stake was it?
>>a gentlemen makes an adventurers agreement in with the understanding >>that they recieve their share of the "success" of the "venture"
>>what was the "payoff" for this "venture" ?
>>what was the "venture" ?
>>paying the rent ? >>or hiring the float tank ?
>>10/10 for a romantic seafaring turn of phrase
>>shame H didn't know you at the time Wayne - you would have put him up >>if he couldn't pay his rent wouldn't you ?
How much did you lose when the missions shut down?
Were you in Elmira? I seem to recall you talking about having spent some time in New York doing some logging. Was that around the time the Elmira mission got closed down?
It's really hard to believe anything you say cuz' you have some many stories and they all seem to happen in the same time frame. I understand why others call you a liar. As a matter of fact I call you a liar, of sorts anyway. I mean what do you call it when someone says they know and you believe them and then find out it was just a line of BS?
Daku will say it's my creation....ha ha ha! Just like a true Avatar. If someone lies to you, or steals from you, or does you wrong in some way, you're responsible. Not the other guy. I say that's hogwash!
What really draws you to post here? Personal vendetta?
> waynemcmahon > View profile > More options 6 Dec 2005, 06:15 > I don't disagree that Harry owned the mission, Jack. And though I've > heard it was because he was the only one in the Elmira study group > that > would sign the contract with the C of S, I'm not sure I fully believe > it. But also, wasn't it just one of several businesses that Harry > owned at the time? > I have my own reasons for believing that Harry was not in "complete > and > total endorsement" of Scientology because even his detractors claim > he > was also studying and pushing Bashar, Seth, Buddhism, Hinduism and > other > religions and philosophies too.
> We aren't talking Los Angeles here, Jack. We're talking a tiny "city" > in > the forgotten forests of upstate New York. The mission contract > was > more a blanket legal cover that allowed a variety of practices.
Not true. Even the earlier, more liberal contract allowed only "standard Scientology." A few "wealth" manuals by some mission holder and Ruth Minsull's books were sold at Scientology bookstores, but they had to be appropriately fawning and gratefully acknowledge that the author was wholly inspired by LRH tech. Then those got pulled when the old despot went totally paranoid.
People at the Elmira mission told me that Bashar tapes were heavily promoted, because Hari had bought one set to use as a master, and then had Avra sell duplicates to his Scientology parishioners. You couldn't do that with books at the time, but cassette tapes were easy to bootleg.
> And > all > this was way way back when Scientology was fun and there was no > vicious > military management and such. More than a few of us wish those days > were > back, but I'm never setting foot in ANY Scientology organisation > again > until it's reformed either internally or in the field they call > "freezone." Even a few years ago I would had recommended it to > friends, > but those days are over.
> I had heard that Harry was the originator of the term "free zone" and > had a sign to that effect on his building. In fact, Eldon claimed > that.
There you go again, putting lies in my mouth that I have to correct. Gale and Carmen told me he put the term "free zone" over the word Scientology on the sign in front of the building. Other former mission holders had already coined that term. Mark Jones started a little tabloid newspaper called "Free Spirit" that may still be published. Hari advertised the Avatar course in it.
