Why doesn't God prove His existence?
Pastor Frank
>Doug Schiffer wrote:
>>
>> Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof
>
>I've seen worse than you become strong Christians, so I certainly don't
>write you off. But I know enough to realize you need a work of God done
>in your soul before it would be fruitful to try and reach out to you on
>the reality of Christ. Who can say when, how or if that will happen?
>
An excellent reply Vince. Jesus was taunted continually by skoffers to
"prove" Himself and God. Even His closest disciple would ask: "Show us the
Father, and we will be satisfied" and Jesus answered: "Having seen me you
have seen the Father" (John 14:8,9). I just can see his little minds
reeling: What the heck does He mean by THAT?
When it comes to understanding with your heart, times haven't changed,
have they?
Pastor Frank
(i.e. Jesus)
Nothing is more powerful than an individual
acting out of his conscience, thus helping
to bring the collective conscience to life.
- Norman Cousins (1915- )
Pastor Frank
>
>So in other words, your god only provides evidence to those who don't
>need it. I think your god needs to go back to school and learn something
>about advertising.
>
You have absolutely no idea what Christianity is all about. Christianity
is about ideals one tries to live up to, about character development, about
caring love for others, about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48) It is not about
demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to be saved
and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these religious NGs
scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the example of
the successes. But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
Pastor Frank
"God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him
must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."
-- Jesus in John 4:24
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God."
--Romans 8:14
Mephisto
Unconciously these Christians who have been touched are tricking themselves.
In the words of Karl Marx (1818-1883) "Religion is the opium of the masses".
Also, a second question. Why does Pastor Frank keep telling atheists to
leave this group and argue somewhere else? I thought the whole point of a
discussion group was to discuss things, if everyone holds exactly the same
view then discussion is impossible and you don't gain anything. Pastor
Frank, why don't you go and start some agreement groups for yourself and see
how many people you get.
Mephisto
Member of the anti-Frank campaign
KPF
Pastor Frank
>On Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:27:51 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>
>> You have absolutely no idea what Christianity is all about.
Christianity
>>is about ideals one tries to live up to, about character development,
about
>>caring love for others, about perfection,
>
>> as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
>>perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
>
>(From memory may not be exact.)
>
What about them? Do you really expect ANYONE to be perfect EVER? The
perfection in God's eyes is not BEING perfect but AIMING to be perfect, to
make the achievement of perfection one's aim in life. Like a loving father
he will pour out His grace upon all those who love Him. Though God loves all
unconditionally, only those who love God in return will find the kingdom of
God heaven, all others will find it to be hell.
>>It is not about
>>demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to be saved
>>and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
>> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these religious
NGs
>>scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the example of
>>the successes.
>> But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
>>Pastor Frank
>
>Making the world a better place for my descendants.
For YOUR descendants only, hey?
>Removing superstitions.
>learning how to get thing done with less work. Building a more efficient,
society.
> Making the world a safer, more comfortable, healthier place. Teaching my
children
>to respect the rights of other. Teaching them to not use force against
those who do
>not accept their beliefs.
>Loving your self and those near and dear to you. Works for me.
There are few difference between your aims and those of Christians, only
the results are different. You pat yourself on the back and "love yourself"
narcissistically for being so good, whereas a Christian knows he does
everything but by the grace of God, wo gave him the wherewithal, he
therefore gives thanks to his Father in heaven and glorifies the goodness of
his God.
Not worrying that I
>may offend God by some action or thought. Not fretting that some ones life
style or
>beliefs, may cause him to go to hell.
I believe you. I met many atheists who will let you go over a cliff in
the interest of personal privacy. Even though he could have warned you, he
truly feels he is NOT 'his brother's keeper' and looks out ONLY for himself
and his.
Having no need to be a nosy busybody, not
>worrying about enforcing the laws of a god, who is not able to enforce them
himself,
>and depend on me to do his work for him.
You obviously don't know what the word "God" means. God is NOT another
person with super-powers, a la comic strip, but "a spirit", as Christ
explains: "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in
Spirit and in Truth." (Jesus in John 4:24) as well as: "He that hath seen me
hath seen the Father" (Jesus in John 14:9) In the latter it is safe to
assume Jesus meant His Spiritual attributes, rather than His physical ones.
Therefore God lives and expresses Himself in and through people. (Much like
Satan does also)
> I could go on for several pages, you should be able to understand from
this.
>
>>"God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him
>>must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."
>> -- Jesus in John 4:24
>>"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
>>they are the sons of God."
>> --Romans 8:14
> Christians believe in a god who demands fear and unquestioned belief. Any
hint of
>doubt is a deadly sin.
This is NOT so. There are certain denominations who preach that, but
these are denominations which are NOT sola scriptura. "Let us reason
together,saith the Lord" (Isa. 1:18) precludes that a "hint of doubt is a
deadly sin".
A miserable life of suffering, with any pleasure imperiling
>the chance to spending eternity in a paradise, where there will be no
pleasure or
>chance of pleasure to tempt you.
> All want to go to this heaven, but no sooner than possible. Beg god ie
pray to spare
>or save your life a while longer. Delay going to Paradise as long as
possible.
> Lets see I want to go to heaven,and live there for all eternity. But not
now or any
>time soon. To get there I have to die, I don`t want to die.
>I think that is really stupid.
>
That's all wrong and unscriptural. A small area of sexual debauchery is
declared off limits, and any who chafe at that, ignoring the manifold
"pleasures" that God wants us to enjoy, is a chronic complainer who wouldn't
find "pleasure" anyway, even were he to fall over it. It's the old saw: A
Christian rejoices that his glass is half full, an atheist complains it's
half empty.
Pastor Frank
"God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him
must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."
-- Jesus in John 4:24
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God."
--Romans 8:14
"He that hath seen me hath seen the Father"
- Jesus in John 14:9
Myles
news \News\, n [From New; cf. F. nounelles. News ?s plural in form, but is
commonly used with a singular verb.] 1. A report of recent occurences;
information of something that has lately taken place, or of something before
unknown; fresh tindings; recent intelligence.
Now that we know it's a newsgroup again.
Continue...
Mephisto <S...@radical88.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7tftr1$pcp$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Pastor Frank
>
>Actually, it is a newsgroup. Hence the word news.
>news \News\, n [From New; cf. F. nounelles. News ?s plural in form, but is
>commonly used with a singular verb.] 1. A report of recent occurences;
>information of something that has lately taken place, or of something
before
>unknown; fresh tindings; recent intelligence.
>Now that we know it's a newsgroup again.
>
NGs have in common is, they are all Christian, there isn't an atheist Group
among them. Still we seem to have a whole lot of atheists here, who insist
posting their news to the wrong newsgroup.
Are you supposing they post here because they seek to proselytize us
Christians into becoming atheists? Or perhaps like dogs, they would rather
drop their turds into somebody else's yard?
Pastor Frank
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
that which spitefully use you and persecute you".
-- Jesus in Matt. 5:44
Mephisto
groups where only the admins post "news" and noone replies, discussion
groups, such as this, are ones where one person posts his opinion, and
others then reply with their opinion so that hopefully we can all improve
our understanding. Thesis+Anti-thesis=Synthesis.
Mephisto
Myles <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:37fe...@news.cadvision.com...
> Actually, it is a newsgroup. Hence the word news.
>
> news \News\, n [From New; cf. F. nounelles. News ?s plural in form, but is
> commonly used with a singular verb.] 1. A report of recent occurences;
> information of something that has lately taken place, or of something
before
> unknown; fresh tindings; recent intelligence.
>
> Now that we know it's a newsgroup again.
>
Pastor Frank
>
>Can there be such a thing as news in a religious group? News groups are
>groups where only the admins post "news" and noone replies, discussion
>groups, such as this, are ones where one person posts his opinion, and
>others then reply with their opinion so that hopefully we can all improve
>our understanding. Thesis+Anti-thesis=Synthesis.
>> > Mephisto
>> > KPF
>> >
material related to the name of News Group, and NOT just a place to trash
burn and flame and display a nasty disposition.
Those that do trash flame and burn in Christian NGs are the Biblical
devils Jesus drove out of those they possess. Jesus did NOT befriend devils
but just commanded them to come out of their victims.
Pastor Frank
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places."
-- Ephesians 6:12
barry nelson
you keep talking about what the newsgroup is for, supposedly,
yet you go on and on, calling people devils. is it perhaps
you that is perpetuatiing the very thing you rail against?
--
"I wouldn't want to belong to any club
that would have me as a member."
-Groucho Marx
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> I'm glad you understand what our NGs are for. There are for
discussing
>> material related to the name of News Group, and NOT just a place to
trash
>> burn and flame and display a nasty disposition.
>> Those that do trash flame and burn in Christian NGs are the Biblical
>> devils Jesus drove out of those they possess. Jesus did NOT befriend
devils
>> but just commanded them to come out of their victims.
>>
>you keep talking about what the newsgroup is for, supposedly,
>yet you go on and on, calling people devils. is it perhaps
>you that is perpetuatiing the very thing you rail against?
>--
Jesus was silent before Pilate and the Sanhedrin. Did the devils go
away? Disappear? Lay off lambasting and persecuting Jesus? Did Jesus cave in
and befriend the Sanhedrin to save His life? Did he refrain from calling
evil evil or devils devils?
Furthermore I don't call "people" devils, for no person can ever BE a
devil, he can only be possessed by devils.
You know who is possessed by devils by their unrelenting negativity,
that drives some to murder, others to suicide but ALWAYS in the direction of
death, NEVER towards life and that more abundantly (Jesus in John 10:10).
Pastor Frank
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it
more abundantly. -- Jesus in John 10:10
barry nelson
"27 ś "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good
to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;
and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even
your shirt.
30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes
away your goods do not ask them again.
31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
For even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit
is that to you? For even sinners do the same." -Luke/Chapter 6
doug_s...@my-deja.com
"Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Doug Schiffer wrote in message <36BB175C...@dreamscape.com>...
> >
> >So in other words, your god only provides evidence to those who don't
> >need it. I think your god needs to go back to school and learn
something
> >about advertising.
> >
Incorrect. I used to be a Christian, so I know what it is all about.
I think your problem with my statements is precisely that I am on the
mark. That angers you.
>Christianity
> is about ideals one tries to live up to,about character development,
about
> caring love for others,
When are you going to start demonstrating that caring love for others -
in particular me?
> about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
> perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
That is of course an exercise in futility, which leads to broken
personalities, wrecked morality, abusiveness, hypocrisy and all the
rest of the traits that Christians are justly famous (or infamous) for.
> It is not about
> demanding proof of His existence from God,
The existence of god is the pivotal point around which the whole scheme
of Christianity turns. For if God doesn't exist, then all the rest of
the religion collapses into utter uselessness.
> but what we must do to be saved
> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
If God doesn't exist, then salvation is a meaningless buzzword, for we
will never "be" with him in his non-existent heaven.
> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
religious NGs
> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
example of
> the successes.
I hope you're not trying to offer yourself as one of the successes.
> But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
To live, to laugh, to cry, to love, to feel joy, to watch a sunrise, to
have rapturous ecstasy and all the rest. All without the need for a
cosmic overseer.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Vexen UK
> Doug Schiffer wrote in message <36BB175C...@dreamscape.com>...
> is about ideals one tries to live up to, about character development,
about
> caring love for others, about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be
ye
> perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
Humanism is about ideals, humanity, social conditions, kindness,
honesty, and we don't need to externalize any thing.
Why do you need to believe in God to have good ideals? If we took away
your belief in God would you become an immoral violent person? Of
course not. So why bother with all the time-wasting fear-inspiring
hunts for salvation?
Salvation is right in front of our eyes: It is compassion and
understanding of the people and environment around us. It is not about
externalisation of "evil" into an unseen force. This only makes
suffering ambigious. Human life is about love of people, not about
worshipping an ideal but acting it out without dihonesty.
> It is not about
> demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to be
saved
> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
Jesus said (in the Gospel of Thomas) , "Heaven is here right now, and
all we have to do is see it"
THIS is something I can believe in. Hell is hell for those who can't
behave. For those who question the validity of other's lives. Hell is
what YOU make it. You pretend it's a REAL place - you are scary because
you can't admit that Human beings are the source of good and evil, not
some coward who doesn't show himself even if he could.
> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
religious NGs
> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
example of
> the successes. But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
"But then," says Pastor Frank, "to what purpose is an atheist's life
anyway?"
You finish my point nicely, the point of an atheists life is PEOPLE,
not GODS, and your lack of understanding of the point of an atheists
life confirms that you only care for your own kind, you are the type of
person who causes wars, fighting and suffering. Deal with it and stop
pretending you *know* anything of human suffering.
Vexen UK, the perky sqwrl-fur cyberpunky bounce maniac industrialist
geek with shades (of course).
my main index page: http://members.xoom.com/VexenUK
Satanism pages/justification: http://solcities.co.uk/members/satanism
Pastor Frank
>In article <4lzK3.1629$i3.5...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> "Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Doug Schiffer wrote in message <36BB175C...@dreamscape.com>...
>> >
>> >need it. I think your god needs to go back to school and learn
>> >something about advertising.
>> >
>
>I think your problem with my statements is precisely that I am on the
>mark. That angers you.
>
Why would your religion or lack of it "anger" anyone?
>>Christianity
>> is about ideals one tries to live up to,about character development,
>>about caring love for others,
>
>When are you going to start demonstrating that caring love for others -
>in particular me?
>
I bet you would love to have people "demonstrate their love for you" by
sending you all their money, hey?
>> about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
>> perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
>
>That is of course an exercise in futility, which leads to broken
>personalities, wrecked morality, abusiveness, hypocrisy and all the
>rest of the traits that Christians are justly famous (or infamous) for.
>
I see. Trying to be good, makes you evil. Great logic!!!! In that case
you should try to be evil, perhaps that will result in you being good?
>> It is not about
>> demanding proof of His existence from God,
>
>The existence of god is the pivotal point around which the whole scheme
>of Christianity turns. For if God doesn't exist, then all the rest of
>the religion collapses into utter uselessness.
>
Why would that be so? Don't you maintain you can be good without God?
How much better when you attend church every Sunday and spend a great deal
of time and effort and earning and practicing to be good. Or do you think
that comes natural, is instinctual and needs no practice? "Useless"
indeed!!!!
>> but what we must do to be saved
>> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
>
>If God doesn't exist, then salvation is a meaningless buzzword, for we
>will never "be" with him in his non-existent heaven.
>
Quite the contrary. Jesus makes it clear heaven is not just in the
hereafter, but right in the here and now. We both know that hell exists in
the here and now, so why not heaven?
>> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
>religious NGs
>> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
>>example of the successes.
>
>I hope you're not trying to offer yourself as one of the successes.
>
Why not? What do you know about me? When Christ came into my life He
brought His Kingdom of heaven with Him, and as long as I am with Jesus I
live in the Kingdom of heaven, and so could you. I thank the Lord for every
glorious minute of my life with Him. Whom do YOU thank and glorify?
>> But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
>
>To live, to laugh, to cry, to love, to feel joy, to watch a sunrise, to
>have rapturous ecstasy and all the rest. All without the need for a
>cosmic overseer.
>
All those things are transitory pleasures which can cease any second,
and beyond those gapes the black hole of eternity where there is wailing and
gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12). But I can see you are well aware of that
disquiet, that secret desperation and terror lacking any cause, or that
Biblical "worm that never dies" and are looking for answers. That's why you
are here in our religious NGs, are you not?
Pastor Frank
"I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live".
--Jesus in John 11:25
Pastor Frank
>"Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Doug Schiffer wrote in message <36BB175C...@dreamscape.com>...
>>
>> is about ideals one tries to live up to, about character development,
>about
>> caring love for others, about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be
>>ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
>
>honesty, and we don't need to externalize any thing.
>Why do you need to believe in God to have good ideals? If we took away
>your belief in God would you become an immoral violent person? Of
>course not. So why bother with all the time-wasting fear-inspiring
>hunts for salvation?
>Salvation is right in front of our eyes: It is compassion and
>understanding of the people and environment around us. It is not about
>externalisation of "evil" into an unseen force. This only makes
>suffering ambigious. Human life is about love of people, not about
>worshipping an ideal but acting it out without dihonesty.
>
>> demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to be
>saved
>> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
>
>all we have to do is see it"
>THIS is something I can believe in. Hell is hell for those who can't
>behave. For those who question the validity of other's lives. Hell is
>what YOU make it. You pretend it's a REAL place - you are scary because
>you can't admit that Human beings are the source of good and evil, not
>
>> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
>religious NGs
>> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
>example of
>
>anyway?"
>
>You finish my point nicely, the point of an atheists life is PEOPLE,
>not GODS, and your lack of understanding of the point of an atheists
>life confirms that you only care for your own kind, you are the type of
>person who causes wars, fighting and suffering. Deal with it and stop
>pretending you *know* anything of human suffering.
>
nothing anyone could disagree with, except one, and that is God. You have to
understand, that human judgment vacillates according to fashion. "Custom
will reconcile people to any atrocity; and fashion will drive them to
acquire any custom". (George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950). The function of God
is to provide stability and permanency to a moral code or behavioural
ideals, in order to ensure they will NOT be subverted over time.
You also seem to forget, that though you belong to a minority who can
think, the majority of mankind doesn't think, but does whatever comes
natural, which follows the directive: "Do unto other.....whatever you can
get away with", the evidence of which are the ever increasing number of
fresh mass-graves throughout the world.
Therefore the humanist belief in the "basic goodness of man" is an
illusion. Man is basically a Simian who will bully and fight for food,
living space and mating rights. Give him weapons and he will kill
thoughtlessly and mercilessly if given the opportunity. Only the fear of the
law, and prayerfully the love of our Lord will keep him in check. Therefore
belief in the Lord (temporal as well as eternal) is an important component
in man's psychology and serves to preserve a modicum of civility in our
civilization. No civilization in history has survived long without a
powerful, loved and respected Lord.
Pastor Frank
"Be ye therefore perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect"
- Jesus in Matt. 5:48
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,
gentleness, goodness, faith, generosity, self control."
- Galatians 5:22-23
doug_s...@my-deja.com
"Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> doug_s...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7ufg90
> >> Doug Schiffer wrote in message
<36BB175C...@dreamscape.com>...
> >> >
don't
> >> >need it. I think your god needs to go back to school and learn
> >> >something about advertising.
> >> >
> >
> >I think your problem with my statements is precisely that I am on the
> >mark. That angers you.
> >
>
> Why would your religion or lack of it "anger" anyone?
Frank, can you HONESTLY say that you don't get angry with atheists
practically every day on this newsgroup. (PS: Please remember that
your religion calls lying a sin, and that liars are amongst those
condemned to hellfire along with gays and murderers before responding)
BTW: I noticed that you failed to address the issue that I used to be a
Christian in your response. The simple fact is, at one time I believed
in God, Jesus, the bible and all the rest. Further, I have studied
your religion extensively since my de-conversion some years ago. I
would safely say that I am better acquainted with Christian beliefs and
history than 95% of Christians.
> >>Christianity
> >> is about ideals one tries to live up to,about character
development,
> >>about caring love for others,
> >
> >When are you going to start demonstrating that caring love for
others -
> >in particular me?
> >
>
> I bet you would love to have people "demonstrate their love for
you" by
> sending you all their money, hey?
No, I wasn't going to make that request, even though Jesus himself
commands you to give away whatever people ask of you. I know your
behavior well enough to know that that teaching is one that you
wouldn't dream of following.
No, the type I was thinking about would mean that you would use calmer
statements, rather accusing atheists of dropping "turds" in your
favorite newsgroup. Please don't deny it - dejanews remembers.
> >> about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
> >> perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
> >
> >That is of course an exercise in futility, which leads to broken
> >personalities, wrecked morality, abusiveness, hypocrisy and all the
> >rest of the traits that Christians are justly famous (or infamous)
for.
> >
>
> I see. Trying to be good, makes you evil.
No, demanding perfection is what encourages evil. Also, claiming that
all evil can be wished away by just saying that you "believe" in a
cosmic phantom is a teaching that encourages evil.
> Great logic!!!! In that case
> you should try to be evil, perhaps that will result in you being good?
A healthy attitude would be to strive for good, and to follow a teacher
that leads a good life. The god of Christianity is a terrible example,
as most of the bible shows him murdering, pillaging and stealing from
others. It's a lot like having Caligula as the moral exemplar of your
belief system.
And the facts of the world bear out that Christian beliefs are
defective. The vast majority of prison inmates in this country are
Christians, while non-believers are way under-represented. The
Southeastern part of this country is more Christian (aka the bible
belt) than the Northeast. Guess what area has the worst violent crime
rate per capita?
> >> It is not about
> >> demanding proof of His existence from God,
> >
> >The existence of god is the pivotal point around which the whole
scheme
> >of Christianity turns. For if God doesn't exist, then all the rest
of
> >the religion collapses into utter uselessness.
> >
>
> Why would that be so? Don't you maintain you can be good without
God?
Precisely.
> How much better when you attend church every Sunday and spend a great
deal
> of time and effort and earning and practicing to be good.
I don't spend much time going to church on Sunday (other than a
religious census project), yet my behavior is more moral than most
Christians.
> Or do you think
> that comes natural, is instinctual and needs no practice? "Useless"
> indeed!!!!
As a method of instilling morality, Christianity is demonstrable
failure.
> >> but what we must do to be saved
> >> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
> >
> >If God doesn't exist, then salvation is a meaningless buzzword, for
we
> >will never "be" with him in his non-existent heaven.
> >
>
> Quite the contrary. Jesus makes it clear heaven is not just in the
> hereafter, but right in the here and now. We both know that hell
exists in
> the here and now,
I know of nowhere in the here and now where people suffer in a lake of
fire for all eternity.
> so why not heaven?
The practice of morality does generate rewards, but requires no belief
in Jesus, the bible or the rest of Christianity.
>
> >> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
> >religious NGs
> >> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
> >>example of the successes.
> >
> >I hope you're not trying to offer yourself as one of the successes.
> >
>
> Why not? What do you know about me?
I know you spend a lot of time writing messages calling people names
and generally spreading the message that Christianity hasn't succeeded
in making you a decent person. Sometimes I seriously think you may be
an atheist troll.
>When Christ came into my life He
> brought His Kingdom of heaven with Him, and as long as I am with
Jesus I
> live in the Kingdom of heaven, and so could you.
If that's where you are now, I say "no thanks".
> I thank the Lord for every
> glorious minute of my life with Him.
Would that include the glorious minutes you spend calling atheists
names?
> Whom do YOU thank and glorify?
I thank people who do me favors, who do exceptionally good jobs, my
parents, etc. Glorification seems like a waste of time to me.
> >> But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
> >
> >To live, to laugh, to cry, to love, to feel joy, to watch a sunrise,
to
> >have rapturous ecstasy and all the rest. All without the need for a
> >cosmic overseer.
> >
>
> All those things are transitory pleasures which can cease any
second,
Correct, making them all the more valuable.
> and beyond those gapes the black hole of eternity where there is
wailing and
> gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).
You don't have to look very far to see why Christianity is such an
abject failure. What else could you expect from a belief system that
raises extortion to a fundamental tenet?
Pastor Frank
>> Why would your religion or lack of it "anger" anyone?
>
>Frank, can you HONESTLY say that you don't get angry with atheists
>practically every day on this newsgroup. (PS: Please remember that
>your religion calls lying a sin, and that liars are amongst those
>condemned to hellfire along with gays and murderers before responding)
>
A Christian is not to get angry EVER. But that does NOT mean Christians
are to be welcome doormats to every demon possessed twit trolling our
Christian NGs to stomp, wipe his feet on as well as trash and flame. I have
learned to tell demons off, wthout getting angry. What about you?
>BTW: I noticed that you failed to address the issue that I used to be a
>Christian in your response.
So? I used to be an atheist.
The simple fact is, at one time I believed
>in God, Jesus, the bible and all the rest.
One time I would have laughed at you and call you a dimwit.
Further, I have studied
>your religion extensively since my de-conversion some years ago. I
>would safely say that I am better acquainted with Christian beliefs and
>history than 95% of Christians.
>
Sure you are. Sure. It doesn't take much intelligence to make mincemeat
out of the Bible, as well as consider Christianity a cannibalistic religion
because Christ advocated, that His adherents eat His flesh and drink His
blood or have no part in Him (John 6:53). The problem is entirely to find
profound meaning in something akin to abstract art, where "intelligence"
isn't the deciding factor in understanding philosophical symbolism and
metaphor.
>> >>Christianity
>> >> is about ideals one tries to live up to,about character
>> >>development, about caring love for others,
>> >
>> >When are you going to start demonstrating that caring love for
>> >others -in particular me?
>>
>> I bet you would love to have people "demonstrate their love for
>>you" by sending you all their money, hey?
>
>No, I wasn't going to make that request, even though Jesus himself
>commands you to give away whatever people ask of you. I know your
>behavior well enough to know that that teaching is one that you
>wouldn't dream of following.
>
For someone sure of his facts, your certainly give a lot of credence to
your suppositions of, as well as beliefs and judgments about others, don't
you? Let's see your supporting evidence of your judgment of "my behaviour"
and let us scrutinize and evaluate the standards by which you judge, for if
you can't do that, everybody will know you are just a "blow-hard".
>No, the type I was thinking about would mean that you would use calmer
>statements, rather accusing atheists of dropping "turds" in your
>favorite newsgroup. Please don't deny it - dejanews remembers.
>
What would you what call those Stix imitators are doing here? I have
never seen you complain even at the worst language of trolling atheist in
our Christian NGs. Why not?
>> >> about perfection, as Jesus admonished us: "Be ye
>> >> perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
>> >
>> >That is of course an exercise in futility, which leads to broken
>> >personalities, wrecked morality, abusiveness, hypocrisy and all the
>> >rest of the traits that Christians are justly famous (or infamous)
>> >for.
>>
>> I see. Trying to be good, makes you evil.
>
>No, demanding perfection is what encourages evil. Also, claiming that
>all evil can be wished away by just saying that you "believe" in a
>cosmic phantom is a teaching that encourages evil.
>
>> Great logic!!!! In that case
>> you should try to be evil, perhaps that will result in you being good?
>
>A healthy attitude would be to strive for good, and to follow a teacher
>that leads a good life. The god of Christianity is a terrible example,
>as most of the bible shows him murdering, pillaging and stealing from
>others. It's a lot like having Caligula as the moral exemplar of your
>belief system.
>
You say you studied the bible, but you don't even know the difference
between Christianity and Judaism. Christ did no such thing of what you
accuse Him.
>And the facts of the world bear out that Christian beliefs are
>defective. The vast majority of prison inmates in this country are
>Christians, while non-believers are way under-represented. The
>Southeastern part of this country is more Christian (aka the bible
>belt) than the Northeast. Guess what area has the worst violent crime
>rate per capita?
>
In that case the parole board should let prisoners confessing to be
atheists out sooner. As soon as this becomes the norm, you will have nothing
but atheists in prison, guaranteed.
>> >> It is not about
>> >> demanding proof of His existence from God,
>> >
>> >The existence of god is the pivotal point around which the whole
>scheme
>> >of Christianity turns. For if God doesn't exist, then all the rest
>of
>> >the religion collapses into utter uselessness.
>> >
>>
>> Why would that be so? Don't you maintain you can be good without
>God?
>
>Precisely.
>
>> How much better when you attend church every Sunday and spend a great
>>deal of time and effort and earning and practicing to be good.
>
>I don't spend much time going to church on Sunday (other than a
>religious census project), yet my behavior is more moral than most
>Christians.
>
Exactly my point. What evidence have you got, that good behaviour in
instinctual and comes natural and doesn't need to be taught, nor practiced?
If you consider yourself "more moral than most Christians" are you ready to
serve as a role-model to our youth? How much time and money do you spend to
bring the behaviour of troubled youth, or that of self-destructive adults,
up to your standard?
>> Or do you think
>> that comes natural, is instinctual and needs no practice? "Useless"
>> indeed!!!!
>
>As a method of instilling morality, Christianity is demonstrable
>failure.
>
Even the worst numb-skulls and lame-brains can say "it's a failure" of
everything without offering evidence. It takes genius to come up with a
better method of "instilling morality" that even the "lame-brains" and
"numb-skulls" can follow. What's YOUR solution?
>> >> but what we must do to be saved
>> >> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
>> >
>> >If God doesn't exist, then salvation is a meaningless buzzword, for
>> >we will never "be" with him in his non-existent heaven.
>>
>> Quite the contrary. Jesus makes it clear heaven is not just in the
>> hereafter, but right in the here and now. We both know that hell
>>exists in the here and now,
>
>I know of nowhere in the here and now where people suffer in a lake of
>fire for all eternity.
>
Like I said, perhaps philosophical symbolism and metaphor aren't you cup
of tea? I know lots of addicts who live in "a lake of fire" while looking
for their next fix, don't you?
>> so why not heaven?
>
>The practice of morality does generate rewards, but requires no belief
>in Jesus, the bible or the rest of Christianity.
>
Well, I'm glad you see 'some' reward in religious practice. We find
Jesus serving as a role model, and His spirit strengthening us in our human
weakness. You have no such help nor comfort and I don't envy you, for
temptation looms ever so large, that even the elect may lose their faith, if
that were possible (Matt. 24:24). You are immune to overpowering temptation
and don't need help?
>>
>> >> Being an atheist, you have been wasting your life in these
>> >religious NGs
>> >> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
>> >>example of the successes.
>> >
>> >I hope you're not trying to offer yourself as one of the successes.
>>
>> Why not? What do you know about me?
>
>I know you spend a lot of time writing messages calling people names
>and generally spreading the message that Christianity hasn't succeeded
>in making you a decent person. Sometimes I seriously think you may be
>an atheist troll.
>
Where do I call anyone non-Biblical names, and only on providing ample
evidence of their intent? Are you habitually into accusing sans presenting
evidence? It's one of the hallmarks of Satan's minions, for the word "Satan"
means accuser, prosecutor. But every proper prosecutor knows you have to
present evidence, or have your case dismissed and risk defamation suits.
>>When Christ came into my life He
>> brought His Kingdom of heaven with Him, and as long as I am with
>>Jesus I live in the Kingdom of heaven, and so could you.
>
>If that's where you are now, I say "no thanks".
>
>> I thank the Lord for every
>> glorious minute of my life with Him.
>
>Would that include the glorious minutes you spend calling atheists
>names?
>
Do you know what the word "evidence" means?
>> Whom do YOU thank and glorify?
>
>I thank people who do me favors, who do exceptionally good jobs, my
>parents, etc. Glorification seems like a waste of time to me.
>
God doing you a favour by keeping you healthy and alive in a tolerable
environment doesn't count, hey?
>> >> But then, to what purpose is an atheist's life anyway?
>> >
>> >To live, to laugh, to cry, to love, to feel joy, to watch a sunrise,
>to
>> >have rapturous ecstasy and all the rest. All without the need for a
>> >cosmic overseer.
>>
>> All those things are transitory pleasures which can cease any
>second,
>
>Correct, making them all the more valuable.
>
>> and beyond those gapes the black hole of eternity where there is
>>wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).
>
>You don't have to look very far to see why Christianity is such an
>abject failure. What else could you expect from a belief system that
>raises extortion to a fundamental tenet?
>
If that's you opinion, you know nothing about Christianity, nor
appreciate what God did for you coming in the form of Christ to suffer and
die for your sins and shortcomings, so that you might be saved and live
eternally with Him in heaven.
Pastor Frank
<7uiv71$f2c$1...@nntp5.atl.mindspring.net>...
>In article <380CFDAB...@bluegrass.net>,
>David Lindauer <cam...@bluegrass.net> wrote:
>>Therion Ware wrote:
>>
>>> I'd be interested to know what rights you think humanity has before
>>> God.
>>
>>Try none?
>
>Only if it can be demonstrated that it actually exists.
>
>>> >ignoring God & yelling at God & denying God won't change God!
>
>The person who said that also has to demonstrate that it
>exists outside the imagination of its followers.
"Has to demonstrate"? How do you demonstrate "A Spirit"?
Pastor Frank
>Therion Ware wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested to know what rights you think humanity has before
>> God.
>
>Try none?
>
Christ we believe in was defined by Christ: "God is a Spirit, and they that
worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." (Jesus in John 4:24).
Note the word "Spirit" is used twice which should give you a clue as to its
meaning. It's not a ghost, OK?
Anyway, "In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God and the
Word was God" (John 1:1). Rights? You must be kidding.
barry nelson
>
> doug_s...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7ui9n0$k8e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <BVOO3.4203$i3.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
> > "Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >> Why would your religion or lack of it "anger" anyone?
> >
> >Frank, can you HONESTLY say that you don't get angry with atheists
> >practically every day on this newsgroup. (PS: Please remember that
> >your religion calls lying a sin, and that liars are amongst those
> >condemned to hellfire along with gays and murderers before responding)
> >
> A Christian is not to get angry EVER. But that does NOT mean Christians
> are to be welcome doormats to every demon possessed twit trolling our
> Christian NGs to stomp, wipe his feet on as well as trash and flame. I have
> learned to tell demons off, wthout getting angry. What about you?
boy, if you think the name calling you've been engaged in is done
"without getting angry", i'd hate to see you when you *are* angry.
> >BTW: I noticed that you failed to address the issue that I used to be a
> >Christian in your response.
>
> So? I used to be an atheist.
>
> The simple fact is, at one time I believed
> >in God, Jesus, the bible and all the rest.
>
> One time I would have laughed at you and call you a dimwit.
>
> Further, I have studied
> >your religion extensively since my de-conversion some years ago. I
> >would safely say that I am better acquainted with Christian beliefs and
> >history than 95% of Christians.
> >
>
> Sure you are. Sure. It doesn't take much intelligence to make mincemeat
> out of the Bible, as well as consider Christianity a cannibalistic religion
> because Christ advocated, that His adherents eat His flesh and drink His
> blood or have no part in Him (John 6:53). The problem is entirely to find
> profound meaning in something akin to abstract art, where "intelligence"
> isn't the deciding factor in understanding philosophical symbolism and
> metaphor.
he didn't say any of these things, pastor. he said he studied
your religion and rejected it, not that he didn't understand
the symbolism involved.
> For someone sure of his facts, your certainly give a lot of credence to
> your suppositions of, as well as beliefs and judgments about others, don't
> you? Let's see your supporting evidence of your judgment of "my behaviour"
> and let us scrutinize and evaluate the standards by which you judge, for if
> you can't do that, everybody will know you are just a "blow-hard".
calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
> >No, the type I was thinking about would mean that you would use calmer
> >statements, rather accusing atheists of dropping "turds" in your
> >favorite newsgroup. Please don't deny it - dejanews remembers.
>
> What would you what call those Stix imitators are doing here? I have
> never seen you complain even at the worst language of trolling atheist in
> our Christian NGs. Why not?
most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
<snip>
> Where do I call anyone non-Biblical names, and only on providing ample
> evidence of their intent? Are you habitually into accusing sans presenting
> evidence? It's one of the hallmarks of Satan's minions, for the word "Satan"
> means accuser, prosecutor. But every proper prosecutor knows you have to
> present evidence, or have your case dismissed and risk defamation suits.
um, i found these quotes by you posted in this newsgroup. tell
me sir, are the words "turd" and "asshole"m and "horsecrap"
biblical? here's what you've said:
"Are you a Christian hater, like the original poster? An atheist
God-hater? An anti-Christian asshole, out to persecute us Christian in our
own NGs? An lying atheist refuting trashing and flaming Troll from hell?"
"Horse-crap!!! I ONLY post to Christian NGs, and ONLY those atheist
defecating their God, Bible and Christian-hating turds in our Christian
News Groups are called "atheist Trolls from hell". Since you don't
believe in "hell" this should hardly matter to you, should it now?"
not a very honest appraisal of yourself, was it, pastor?
<snip>
Pastor Frank
>
>calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
>of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
>
>foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
>beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
>faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
>
Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible in
our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing that
are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
Pastor Frank
>Shit, shit,
>Frankie just squeals,
>Frankie's god-sludged little mind,
>Poor deluded Frank -- just another mindfucked bleater.
>Bullshit. You're an imbecilic bleater.
> pixieist crap you're belching
>magic space pixies
>communicate via 'folded-hand radio'.
>you're a confused and deluded idiot.
>ad-fucking-nauseam,
>your stupid drivel.
>you're a christer
>to lie, dodge, weave, shift, and evade
>That pixie-son 'saviour' of yours
>Xian syncophants obsequiously rimming god's holy anus every Sunday
>you lying toe-rag.
>crap
>pus-knuckle
>as far up your arse as you can shove them.
>You're just TOO FUCKING STUPID and too bleaterism-biased
>Oh, and your mother was a lice-infested swamp beast who spent her life
>giving blow-jobs to dead inmates in various prison morgues.
> you vapid, lying fuck.
>sputtering your idiotic pixyist fantasies
>drivel
>just SHUT YOUR LYING HOLE
>idiot fantasies
>flying fuck WHAT idiocy delude yourself
>Prick.
>bullshit positions
>bogus crap
>BRAINLESS PIGSHIT >
>suppurating smegma you're squirting
>Eat shit and fuck off you stinking LIAR.
>the dank sea-hag who lets you throw a fuck into her rancid gucket whenever
she's drunk
>christer
>you're an inconsistent, special pleading, puddle of gangrenous slush.
>magic pixie you call 'God' and a magic pixie called 'Squeaker'
>nose-golem called 'Frank.' He buzzes around your slobbering face and
>you're as stupid as my last turd.
>your stupidity
>you vacuous fucking bonehead.
>suckrash.
>And stop eating the scabs off your sores you sick pseudo-christer
>bilge-beast.
>picking them off your crotch
<spit>
>Wanker.
>Stix
>*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
>"Mysticism is a disease of the mind."
>*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Sniper
[snip]
I have been lurking in these newsgroups for a while now, and I seldom
run across this kind of language. I have noticed you calling quite a
few people atheist trolls and demons, who did nothing more than not
agree with your views. No one would expect you to speak kindly of
someone who calls you names as the ones above, but again, the lion's
share of posts that I've read have not done so. This Stix fellow is
obviously not someone you will likely be able to communicate with,
but what has Bobbi or Striker said that would lead you to imply
they somehow are devils, or atheist trolls? It seems you have taken
the foul language of one poster and used that as an excuse to call
all posters who don't think as you do, devils and trolls. This is
more than a little disingenuous, don't you think?
barry nelson
>
> barry nelson wrote in message <380D1132...@nospam.net>...
> >
> >calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
> >of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
> >
> >most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
> >foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
> >beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
> >faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
> >
> I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
i appreciate that this person stix hasn't been very
nice to you. i also appreciate that he has called
you some pretty nasty names. i would suggest two
things to you:
1) ignore people who are that abusive towards you
2) don't confuse people who don't agree with you
with those who are abusive. they're not the same.
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
>> Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible
in
>> our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing
that
>> are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
>>
>nice to you. i also appreciate that he has called
>you some pretty nasty names. i would suggest two
>things to you:
>1) ignore people who are that abusive towards you
>2) don't confuse people who don't agree with you
>with those who are abusive. they're not the same.
>--
Christians hold holy. There is an ancient saying: "Those who topple people's
gods will incur their wrath". I'm not about to let Satan's minions come here
into our Christian NGs, nor my church to lambaste, trash and flame our God
and His Bible as well as abuse His saints.
You can consider such rude behaviour "not agreeing with me" as much as
you want, but we both know, that's a crock and the only reason Satan's
Trolls behave that way is to STOP religious discussions and most of all
conversions.
It's time you started discussing posts instead of their authors. That's
all I'm going to say about this to you. From now on I will only answer your
theological points.
barry nelson
>
> "I am the resurrection and the life, and he that believeth in me,
> though he were dead, yet shall he live".
> --Jesus in John 11:25
let me ask you something: is calling posters devils a theological
point? why is it that you feel it's justifiable to call other's
names like that, yet chastise those who question your tactics by
criticizing their "lack" of "theological points"? if you believe
yours is a religion of love, then pointing out a loving way to
respond to those who disagree with you *is* a theological point.
or do you think i have to have bible verses posted in order to
be taken seriously by others in these newsgroups?
Striker
myself though. I think I know who you are but I could be wrong.
Been wrong before.
Thanks for the kind words.
Striker
Sniper wrote in message <380E5723...@gotcha.com>...
:Pastor Frank wrote:
:
:[snip]
:
:> Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and
His Bible in
:> our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain
those doing that
:> are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
:>
:> Pastor Frank
:
:I have been lurking in these newsgroups for a while now, and I
:
Vexen UK
> Vexen UK wrote in message <7ufhmp$nsj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >honesty, and we don't need to externalize any thing.
> >Why do you need to believe in God to have good ideals? If we took
away
> >your belief in God would you become an immoral violent person? Of
> >course not. So why bother with all the time-wasting fear-inspiring
> >hunts for salvation?
> >Salvation is right in front of our eyes: It is compassion and
> >understanding of the people and environment around us. It is not
about
> >externalisation of "evil" into an unseen force. This only makes
> >suffering ambigious. Human life is about love of people, not about
> >worshipping an ideal but acting it out without dihonesty.
> >
> >> demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to
be
> >saved
> >> and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
> >
> >all we have to do is see it"
> >THIS is something I can believe in. Hell is hell for those who can't
> >behave. For those who question the validity of other's lives. Hell is
> >what YOU make it. You pretend it's a REAL place - you are scary
because
> >you can't admit that Human beings are the source of good and evil,
not
> >some coward who doesn't show himself even if he could.
> >
> >religious NGs
> >> scoffing and laughing at the failures instead of following the
> >example of
anyway?
> >
> >"But then," says Pastor Frank, "to what purpose is an atheist's life
> >anyway?"
> >
> >You finish my point nicely, the point of an atheists life is PEOPLE,
> >not GODS, and your lack of understanding of the point of an atheists
> >life confirms that you only care for your own kind, you are the type
of
> >person who causes wars, fighting and suffering. Deal with it and stop
> >pretending you *know* anything of human suffering.
> >
> That's quite a sermon and would fit just about any church. There
is
> nothing anyone could disagree with, except one, and that is God. You
have to
> understand, that human judgment vacillates according to fashion.
Yes, at one point one could be slandered for being non-straight. Now we
have a better understanding of the things that cause humans to be the
way they are, and we know that having a sexuality, even a gay one, is
not immoral or punishable. That is BETTER, MORE MORAL, reduces pain,
suffering, hate, etc, and it is also evolutionary morality. Without
evolutionary morality we would still be suffering under the slave-
master morality of the romans ... don't forget your Church was
instrumental in affecting such changes.
There is not a moral person in the world who can say that some of the
classical definitions of immoral were wrong - and this is testiment to
the fact that we NEED to keep things moving, feminism, racism,
sexuality-ism (whatever the word is), etc, because the Human species
DOES make mistakes, and therefore we need the room to be able to change
our minds.
Absolute morals lead to a bigotted rigidity, even when we are wrong and
do evil unto others.
> The function of God
> is to provide stability and permanency to a moral code or behavioural
> ideals, in order to ensure they will NOT be subverted over time.
And do you claim you KNOW, then, what is moral and what is not? As a
children learns, and as the human species learns, we are able to
regulate our selves more and more humanely, with greater knowledge. We
no longer kill spastic children, because we understand their
predicament, if we stick to old values we'd still think they were the
devil incarnate and slaughter them appropriately.
> You also seem to forget, that though you belong to a minority who
can
> think, the majority of mankind doesn't think, but does whatever comes
> natural, which follows the directive: "Do unto other.....whatever you
can
> get away with", the evidence of which are the ever increasing number
of
> fresh mass-graves throughout the world.
The average life expectancy is increasing, the world is becoming safer.
Of course, it doesn't help that certain powerful Churches prevent us
from giving proper sex education, or condoms, to those who most need it.
In the UK, BTW, we are experiencing a reduction in crime over time, ie,
less violent crime, you're statement is only true of some countries.
> Therefore the humanist belief in the "basic goodness of man" is an
> illusion. Man is basically a Simian who will bully and fight for food,
> living space and mating rights. Give him weapons and he will kill
> thoughtlessly and mercilessly if given the opportunity. Only the fear
of the
> law, and prayerfully the love of our Lord will keep him in check.
I think parenting, education and standards of living are more
instrumental in the development of a stable adult that are "fear of the
law, and prayer"
In fact, if we stopped telling people they were inherently immoral
(like the Christian theology does) people would have more self respect
and confidence all ronud. Positive feedback is a better psychology than
negative feedback, the former induces nice personality while the latter
merely makes people *act* nice whilst they see fit.
> Therefore
> belief in the Lord (temporal as well as eternal) is an important
component
> in man's psychology and serves to preserve a modicum of civility in
our
> civilization. No civilization in history has survived long without a
> powerful, loved and respected Lord.
China. For most of it's history it maintained a better medical,
violence and humanitarian record than Western countries. (Erm, until
communism, anyway). I say that no country with a strong monotheistic
god can have internal peace. Most countries thank god, (all Western
countries) are experiencing a decline in religion (in Europe this has
occured since the 1930's)
I like arguing with you BTW, because last time we met you won the
argument (although I can't remember what it was about - perhaps about
whether or not sub-adults or such go to heaven or not)
Pastor Frank
>"Pastor Frank" <NOSPA...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> Vexen UK wrote in message <7ufhmp$nsj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> >
>> >Humanism is about ideals, humanity, social conditions, kindness,
>> >honesty, and we don't need to externalize any thing.
>> >Why do you need to believe in God to have good ideals? If we took
>away
>> >your belief in God would you become an immoral violent person? Of
>> >course not. So why bother with all the time-wasting fear-inspiring
>> >hunts for salvation?
>> >Salvation is right in front of our eyes: It is compassion and
>> >understanding of the people and environment around us. It is not
>about
>> >externalisation of "evil" into an unseen force. This only makes
>> >suffering ambigious. Human life is about love of people, not about
>> >worshipping an ideal but acting it out without dihonesty.
>> >
>> >> It is not about
>> >> demanding proof of His existence from God, but what we must do to
>> >> be saved and eventually be with Him in His heaven.
>> >
>> >Jesus said (in the Gospel of Thomas) , "Heaven is here right now, and
>> >all we have to do is see it"
That applies to hell as well.
Being gay never was immoral or punishable. If you read the Bible you
will see that ONLY and ALL sexual actions outside holy and sanctified
marriage between a man and a woman are sinful and punishable. Whether you
are gay or not is immaterial.
That is BETTER, MORE MORAL, reduces pain,
>suffering, hate, etc, and it is also evolutionary morality. Without
>evolutionary morality we would still be suffering under the slave-
>master morality of the romans ... don't forget your Church was
>instrumental in affecting such changes.
>There is not a moral person in the world who can say that some of the
>classical definitions of immoral were wrong - and this is testiment to
>the fact that we NEED to keep things moving, feminism, racism,
>sexuality-ism (whatever the word is), etc, because the Human species
>DOES make mistakes, and therefore we need the room to be able to change
>our minds.
>Absolute morals lead to a bigotted rigidity, even when we are wrong and
>do evil unto others.
>
You have an enormous amount of freedom in a Biblically literate society,
AS LONG AS there is broad consensus as to the few restrictions to that
freedom. What you propose will lead to an immoral selfish and cruel society,
as it has so many times in the past, for if there are no absolutes,
EVERYHTING is possible. And where everything IS possible, everything
possible WILL occur eventually. Therefore we need absolutes held by
consensus or face self-destruction.
>> The function of God
>> is to provide stability and permanency to a moral code or behavioural
>> ideals, in order to ensure they will NOT be subverted over time.
>
>And do you claim you KNOW, then, what is moral and what is not? As a
>children learns, and as the human species learns, we are able to
>regulate our selves more and more humanely, with greater knowledge. We
>no longer kill spastic children, because we understand their
>predicament, if we stick to old values we'd still think they were the
>devil incarnate and slaughter them appropriately.
>
Precisely no one can agree on on the game rules of life we have killed
more people in this century than all previous centuries combined, and fresh
mass graves are added at an alarming rate.
>> You also seem to forget, that though you belong to a minority who
>can
>> think, the majority of mankind doesn't think, but does whatever comes
>> natural, which follows the directive: "Do unto other.....whatever you
>can
>> get away with", the evidence of which are the ever increasing number
>>of fresh mass-graves throughout the world.
>
>The average life expectancy is increasing, the world is becoming safer.
>Of course, it doesn't help that certain powerful Churches prevent us
>from giving proper sex education, or condoms, to those who most need it.
>
Looks like mass-graves don't faze you. I guarantee you, that once
everone runs amuck to assert his rights your sex addiction will be of very
minor concern to you.
>In the UK, BTW, we are experiencing a reduction in crime over time, ie,
>less violent crime, you're statement is only true of some countries.
>
>> Therefore the humanist belief in the "basic goodness of man" is an
>> illusion. Man is basically a Simian who will bully and fight for food,
>> living space and mating rights. Give him weapons and he will kill
>> thoughtlessly and mercilessly if given the opportunity. Only the fear
>>of the law, and prayerfully the love of our Lord will keep him in check.
>
>I think parenting, education and standards of living are more
>instrumental in the development of a stable adult that are "fear of the
>law, and prayer"
>
In a hedonistic society "parenting" is of no interest to those seeking
to satisfy the lusts of their flesh. You again predicate you whole
worldview on your middle class values, which are held but by a vocal,
literate and well off minority.
>In fact, if we stopped telling people they were inherently immoral
>(like the Christian theology does) people would have more self respect
>and confidence all ronud. Positive feedback is a better psychology than
>negative feedback, the former induces nice personality while the latter
>merely makes people *act* nice whilst they see fit.
>
>> Therefore
>> belief in the Lord (temporal as well as eternal) is an important
>component
>> in man's psychology and serves to preserve a modicum of civility in
>our
>> civilization. No civilization in history has survived long without a
>> powerful, loved and respected Lord.
>
>China. For most of it's history it maintained a better medical,
>violence and humanitarian record than Western countries. (Erm, until
>communism, anyway).
You suffer from a powerful delusion about China, which is typical of the
European middle class who haven't looked at the facts. But that's a very
large subject. What I said about the common people needing a Lord, king,
emperor, temporal as well as spiritual still stands. Like so many vocal
middle class people you are under the illusion, that the uneducated will
follow your directives, because you are smart and have academic credence.
But let them decide for themsleves what is right, and you will quickly
realize they are contemplating whether it would be profitable to kill you
and take what is yours. After all they will reason, you educated blokes have
taken advantage of the poor long enough.
Looks to me you are rather young and inexperienced in mass psychology
and unaware what man is capable of, given a chance. And you are intent of
giving him that chance aren't you? They will eat you alive Bub.
I say that no country with a strong monotheistic
>god can have internal peace. Most countries thank god, (all Western
>countries) are experiencing a decline in religion (in Europe this has
>occured since the 1930's)
>I like arguing with you BTW, because last time we met you won the
>argument (although I can't remember what it was about - perhaps about
>whether or not sub-adults or such go to heaven or not)
>
No country without a strong moral consensus vested in eternal absolutes
has prospered in all of history. You sound like a young intellectual playing
with an all-consuming fire.
Pastor Frank
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."
-- Jesus in John 3:6
Bobbi
Frank...do you even care or realize how hate-filled you sound?
Vexen Crabtree
> >> Vexen UK wrote in message <7ufhmp$nsj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >> >Humanism is about ideals, humanity, social conditions, kindness,
> >> >honesty, and we don't need to externalize any thing.
> >> >Why do you need to believe in God to have good ideals? If we took
> >away
> >> >your belief in God would you become an immoral violent person? Of
> >> >course not. So why bother with all the time-wasting fear-inspiring
> >> >hunts for salvation?
> >> >Salvation is right in front of our eyes: It is compassion and
> >> >understanding of the people and environment around us. It is not
> >about
> >> >externalisation of "evil" into an unseen force. This only makes
> >> >suffering ambigious. Human life is about love of people, not about
> >> >worshipping an ideal but acting it out without dihonesty.
and
> >> >all we have to do is see it"
>
> That applies to hell as well.
Of course, because the Human definitions of Heaven and Hell start and
end with the individual. That's life.
> >Yes, at one point one could be slandered for being non-straight. Now
we
> >have a better understanding of the things that cause humans to be the
> >way they are, and we know that having a sexuality, even a gay one, is
> >not immoral or punishable.
>
> Being gay never was immoral or punishable. If you read the Bible
you
> will see that ONLY and ALL sexual actions outside holy and sanctified
> marriage between a man and a woman are sinful and punishable. Whether
you
> are gay or not is immaterial.
I wasn't getting in to the "is the Bible homophobic debate", I didn't
mention the Bible, I just stated that in history homosexuality has been
punishable. Therefore it is GOOD that morals change over time as a
result of knowledge we gain, as a species, about ourselves.
> That is BETTER, MORE MORAL, reduces pain,
> >suffering, hate, etc, and it is also evolutionary morality. Without
> >evolutionary morality we would still be suffering under the slave-
> >master morality of the romans ... don't forget your Church was
> >instrumental in affecting such changes.
> >There is not a moral person in the world who can say that some of the
> >classical definitions of immoral were wrong - and this is testiment
to
> >the fact that we NEED to keep things moving, feminism, racism,
> >sexuality-ism (whatever the word is), etc, because the Human species
> >DOES make mistakes, and therefore we need the room to be able to
change
> >our minds.
> >Absolute morals lead to a bigotted rigidity, even when we are wrong
and
> >do evil unto others.
> You have an enormous amount of freedom in a Biblically literate
society,
> AS LONG AS there is broad consensus as to the few restrictions to that
> freedom. What you propose will lead to an immoral selfish and cruel
society,
No it wont, and it has been shown to do the exact opposite, such as in
Europe.
> as it has so many times in the past, for if there are no absolutes,
> EVERYHTING is possible. And where everything IS possible, everything
> possible WILL occur eventually. Therefore we need absolutes held by
> consensus or face self-destruction.
No, you perhaps would consider yourself to be free to do anything, but
society imposes rules and laws for the good of it's members: THATS what
is moral, not inhibiting people's behaviour using an old, out of date
code written by people who existed in completely different
circumstances.
> >And do you claim you KNOW, then, what is moral and what is not? As a
> >children learns, and as the human species learns, we are able to
> >regulate our selves more and more humanely, with greater knowledge.
We
> >no longer kill spastic children, because we understand their
> >predicament, if we stick to old values we'd still think they were the
> >devil incarnate and slaughter them appropriately.
> >The average life expectancy is increasing, the world is becoming
safer.
> >Of course, it doesn't help that certain powerful Churches prevent us
> >from giving proper sex education, or condoms, to those who most need
it.
> Looks like mass-graves don't faze you. I guarantee you, that once
> everone runs amuck to assert his rights your sex addiction will be of
very
> minor concern to you.
There are more people in the world, therefore there are more deaths.
The Human Body dies, thats a fact. Average life expectancy has gone up,
people are living longer, therefore less people are dying young.
"your sex addiction" - mine? What are you talking about?
> >In the UK, BTW, we are experiencing a reduction in crime over time,
ie,
> >less violent crime, you're statement is only true of some countries.
> >
<snip>
> >I think parenting, education and standards of living are more
> >instrumental in the development of a stable adult that are "fear of
the
> >law, and prayer"
> >
>
> In a hedonistic society "parenting" is of no interest to those
seeking
> to satisfy the lusts of their flesh. You again predicate you whole
> worldview on your middle class values, which are held but by a vocal,
> literate and well off minority.
Parenting is of utmost importance, along with education. Most Bible-
believers come from a stable home, with a good education, surely you
don't doubt the importance of family and parenting?
Secondly, there is nothing middle class in my past, or in my family.
That's another story, however, email me should you be _that_ interested
in my personal sex life/family history. It's off topic.
> >> Therefore
> >> belief in the Lord (temporal as well as eternal) is an important
> >component
> >> in man's psychology and serves to preserve a modicum of civility in
> >our
> >> civilization. No civilization in history has survived long without
a
> >> powerful, loved and respected Lord.
If we stopped telling people they were inherently immoral
(like the Christian theology does) people would have more self respect
and confidence all ronud. Positive feedback is a better psychology than
negative feedback, the former induces nice personality while the latter
merely makes people *act* nice whilst they see fit.
> >China. For most of it's history it maintained a better medical,
> >violence and humanitarian record than Western countries. (Erm, until
> >communism, anyway).
>
> You suffer from a powerful delusion about China, which is typical
of the
> European middle class who haven't looked at the facts. But that's a
very
> large subject.
Umm. Perhaps you suffer from a powerful delusion about human beings,
but you have no idea how much I know about China. Please describe then,
how these are wrong: In history, China had a better welfare, medical,
educational and stable record than other countries (until Communism).
> What I said about the common people needing a Lord, king,
> emperor, temporal as well as spiritual still stands. Like so many
vocal
> middle class people you are under the illusion, that the uneducated
will
> follow your directives, because you are smart and have academic
credence.
Like so many monotheists, you believe what you want regardless. What is
the stereotype of a "vocal middle class person", because you seem quite
sure that I am one! Describe the stereotype and I'll let you know which
bits apply to me. I might have became that stereotype. I dunno.
Yes, people need guidance, but not in a figure head. Because history
shows us that when we put a single person in control it goes wrong.
Nearly every country has put with periods of dictatorship and the
result has always been bad. An organized government system, with law-
proposers and voting, is the best way. Unless you can show me otherwise
(but you'll have to start inventing stuff).
> But let them decide for themsleves what is right, and you will quickly
> realize they are contemplating whether it would be profitable to kill
you
> and take what is yours. After all they will reason, you educated
blokes have
> taken advantage of the poor long enough.
Aha, does this mean you are uneducated and bitter? I don't care. You
seem obsessed with my social class rating. I don't care about that,
it's not important. We're discussing theology and politics (ish) at the
moment. Want my history? try Simon.Crabtree.Com for some "safe"
information.
Educated folks have not taken advantage of the poor, otherwise there
would be no unemployment benefit, pension schemes, etc. I could not
take advantage of someone, in this country, just because they are poor.
> Looks to me you are rather young and inexperienced in mass
psychology
> and unaware what man is capable of, given a chance. And you are
intent of
> giving him that chance aren't you? They will eat you alive Bub.
"Bub"?, the only things that reminds me of is "Beezlebub" but I don't
think that was the meaning of "Bub". Perhaps you meant "Bud"?
I am inexperienced in mass psychology, I don't understand how or why it
works, but I do have enough empirical evidence to decide which systems
through history have worked and which ones haven't.
> I say that no country with a strong monotheistic
> >god can have internal peace. Most countries thank god, (all Western
> >countries) are experiencing a decline in religion (in Europe this has
> >occured since the 1930's)
> No country without a strong moral consensus vested in eternal
> absolutes has prospered in all of history. You sound like a young
> intellectual playing with an all-consuming fire.
Er, the example I gave provoked a response that claimed the example
wouldn't be true. And you insulted me at the same time! Does this mean
you've ran out of logic, or perhaps that it's true?
Vexen UK, the perky sqwrl-fur cyberpunky bounce maniac industrialist
geek with shades (of course).
my main index page: http://members.xoom.com/VexenUK
Satanism pages/justification: http://solcities.co.uk/members/satanism
C de Haan
because he's to lazy! DUH!
Doug Schiffer
Pastor Frank wrote:
> barry nelson wrote in message <380D1132...@nospam.net>...
> >
> >calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
> >of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
> >
> >most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
> >foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
> >beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
> >faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
> >
> I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
> Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible in
> our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing that
> are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
You might try first proving that you are not a minion of Satan.
--
Hate is not overcome by hate ;
by Love alone is hate appeased.
This is an eternal law.
- Dhamma Pada, verse 3
Pastor Frank
>Pastor Frank wrote:
>> barry nelson wrote in message <380D1132...@nospam.net>...
>> >
>> >calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
>> >of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
>> >
>> >most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
>> >foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
>> >beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
>> >faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
>> >
>> I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
>> Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible
in
>> our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing
that
>> are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
>
>You might try first proving that you are not a minion of Satan.
>--
and I sing His praises. Who or what do YOU glorify in our Christian NGs?
Pastor Frank
To live a single day and hear a good teaching is better than to live a
hundred years without knowing such teaching.
- Buddha, B.C. 568-488
Libertarius
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> > barry nelson wrote in message <380D1132...@nospam.net>...
> > >
> > >calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
> > >of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
> > >
> > >most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
> > >foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
> > >beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
> > >faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
> > >
> > I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
> > Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible in
> > our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing that
> > are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
>
> You might try first proving that you are not a minion of Satan.
===>Or at least that you are not under the control of any extraterrestrial
alien forces.
Robert Lauzeckas
Libertarius wrote:
Good question. Read MAYBE at this site and you'll know why.
<ADDRESS>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/6058/</ADDRESS>
Doug Schiffer
Pastor Frank wrote:
> Doug Schiffer wrote in message <3811EB54...@dreamscape.com>...
> >Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> >> I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
> >> Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible
> in
> >> our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing
> that
> >> are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
> >
> >You might try first proving that you are not a minion of Satan.
> >--
> I post to glorify my Lord and His inerrant Word in our Christian NGs,
> and I sing His praises.
What if your god is Satan. Can you prove he is not?
> Who or what do YOU glorify in our Christian NGs?
Reason.
Darren McHugh
faith??
Darren McHugh
Doug Schiffer wrote:
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>
> > barry nelson wrote in message <380D1132...@nospam.net>...
> > >
> > >calling people "atheist trolls", "demons from hell", and "minions
> > >of satan" are plently with which to judge your behavior, sir.
> > >
> > >most of the people that you've called "devils" have not used
> > >foul language, sir. they simply haven't shared your religious
> > >beliefs. as a pastor, isn't your job to try to share your
> > >faith, instead of calling non-believers "evil"?
> > >
> > I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
> > Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible in
> > our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing that
> > are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
>
> You might try first proving that you are not a minion of Satan.
> --
Jon L
NCaylor
Romans 1:20 From the time the world was created, people have seen
the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his
invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature. So they
have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
Nokosugi
Soooo.....Where's this proof again? Am I supposed to read between the
lines or something?
Nokosugi
Nokosugi
>
> > > I have been abused by the best, Sir, see below.
> > > Personally I don't mind being flamed, but trashing God and His Bible in
> > > our Christian NGs is quite another matter, and I maintain those doing that
> > > are Satan's minions from hell. Prove they are not!
I can easily prove I am not one of "Satan's minions from hell". Follow along, if
you can: Since there is no proof for the existence of Satan, it would logically
stand to reason that there is a very good chance he does not exist. The reason
there is no proof is because he has never interacted in any way with humanity.
Since he has never interacted with humanity, there is no way he could have
"minions", "associates", or whatever you want to call them. Therefore, since there
are no minions of Satan, I can not be one of what doesn't exist.
Nokosugi
NCaylor
existance to anyone. He's already given as much 'proof' as you're
going to get. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. But with
the proof He has given, you no longer have any excuse for not
believing Him.
Nokosugi
of his existence? If you see a tree and think, "That has to be from a
divine source" is that really proof?
Nokosugi
John boy
I say that my god Leroy created what's around you. Believe it or not, it's
up to you.
NCaylor <nca...@theriver.com> wrote in message
news:3832F656...@theriver.com...
helpu
John boy wrote in message ...
>Zero proof. None. Nada. More bible babble.
>I say that my god Leroy created what's around you. Believe it or not, it's
>up to you.
Helpu
Ok so worship him(Leroy) and entrust ur life to his power