Are there any here that will stand up for Benny Hinn?
Wayne W.
love God whom we have not seen?
I am aghast at what happened to today. We do have separate groups on this
NG after all. I was hoping to unite us in prayer, but taking up for Benny
Hinn led me to write things hard to be understood, and I have been
blackballed by several. Even one whom I thought shared my love for the
Church, and me. God bless you Vera.
Do you want me to leave this group? I leave it in God's and your hands.
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Wayne W.
Upon This Rock
"Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Many detest this ministry...
I sat in his brother Henry Hinn's congregation in Vancouver BC for three
years twice a week...Henry spoke of his brother often, of course....
I find they tend to a definite "showmanship." I find that detracts from a
sincere message somehow, yet I believe both of these brothers are called to
evangelist....
I think the biggest spot against the ministry of Benny Hinn is that it has
taken of too much of a pray TV appearance....too flashy.....but Benny always
gives God glory for healings...He claims no part in it really. All the
healed ones come up to him to announce they were healed..."out there" in the
masses....
I think it would be expected to have opposition.. that is a sign of the
Lord's work, for all spiritual things are birthed in adversity....
utr
Wayne W.
"Upon This Rock" <fer...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:WoU0b.21$XS....@news0.telusplanet.net...
-snip-
>
> I think it would be expected to have opposition.. that is a sign of the
> Lord's work, for all spiritual things are birthed in adversity....
>
> utr
Thank you, but is there anyway around this opposition? :'o( I guess not.
Diana
hey nobody would miss my big mouth LOL.
Wayne, Benny Hinn is not God. I like him too but he is not what we are
to defend. God is Truth. Men, Benny and the rest of us do and still
and will make mistakes until we are in our New Glorified Bodies the
day Christ comes for us.
Now hey. Take my hands, wrap them around you in a big ole bear hug and
hold on tight cause we got Souls to win for Jesus ! ! ! ! Amen?????
Di
"Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Diana
Now Ferv, don't fall away in shock that I agreed with you LOL.
Di
"Upon This Rock" <fer...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:WoU0b.21$XS....@news0.telusplanet.net...
>
Upon This Rock
"Diana" <(H)(U)(G)(S)> wrote in message
news:3f44231c$0$13104$a04e...@nnrp.fuse.net...
> NO YOU DON'T ! ! You are not leaving here. If you do I will again but
> hey nobody would miss my big mouth LOL.
>
> Wayne, Benny Hinn is not God. I like him too but he is not what we are
> to defend. God is Truth. Men, Benny and the rest of us do and still
> and will make mistakes until we are in our New Glorified Bodies the
> day Christ comes for us.
>
> Now hey. Take my hands, wrap them around you in a big ole bear hug and
> hold on tight cause we got Souls to win for Jesus ! ! ! ! Amen?????
>
> Di
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the upswing and light heartedness....
utr
Diana
you have a passion for the Lord and like I tell the others we can
plant the seed but...........The job to make it grow belongs to the
Holy Spirit.
Di
"Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:zXU0b.2108$BP7....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
Michael Christ
> If we cannot stand up for Benny Hinn whom we have seen, how can we say we
> love God whom we have not seen?
>
> I am aghast at what happened to today. We do have separate groups on this
> NG after all. I was hoping to unite us in prayer, but taking up for
Benny
> Hinn led me to write things hard to be understood, and I have been
> blackballed by several.
How come it is okay for Wayne to blackball me?
All I asked him was, can he find God in a cup of coffee?
Perhaps, to his blessing, that he has had to taste his own cooking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Holy Spirit has come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Sons are born of Me. They are My Spirit.
In them is no darkness at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Only One Spirit loves...and loves indeed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chuck Stamford
"Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Hey Wayne,
I know you don't know me, but I've been in and out of this newsgroup for
some time now. The last two months I quit posting altogether, but now I'm
back, at least for a while. I'd like to give you a little background on
myself and then make a suggestion if you don't mind.
I'm fifty-five years old now, and have been a "born again" Christian since I
was thirty. My converstion to Christianity didn't happen through someone
witnessing, or listening to a preacher, or reading the Bible. It sort of
came "out of the blue" like a lightening bolt without any human
intermediaries acting as God's "tools". For the first month or so after
this experience the Holy Spirit drove me into the Bible with such a hunger
and thirst for more of the glimpse of eternal, agape love I'd just recieved
that I read it from cover to cover in that first mont/six weeks. After
completing the first reading, I began the second, and continue (although at
a much less rigorous pace to my shame) to this day.
The reason I'm telling you about my conversion and the dramatic desire it
gave me to read God's word (when until then I'd had absolutely no desire to
read it and never had) is that this desire to know what God has revealed by
His Holy Spirit in ages past was fueled by a deep paranoia that some person
was going to come along and volunteer to "explain" what had happened between
God and me. It was a short time after I'd begun my second reading that God
began to lay on my heart that I should fellowship with other Christians, and
He led me to a (then) small church called Calvary Chapel. The founding
pastor of that church is still the pastor of the original church
congregation...his name is Chuck Smith. I was immediately impressed by him.
The love of God seemed to just flow out of him. And when he taught out of
the Bible (he used to say God didn't call him to preach, but to teach...and
he has been ever faithful to that calling as far as I know), I could hear
the Spirit within me agreeing with almost every word out of his mouth.
His ministry has been truly blessed by God. Beginning just forty or so
years ago, Chuck Smith has seen the Holy Spirit raise up literally hundreds
of pastor/teachers from his congregation who have gone all over the world
teaching the Bible, and having God raise up their ministries into regular
church congregations. And with the leading and grace of the Spirit, that
original small group of believers (it actually started as a home Bible
study!) has become over 900 congregations spread all over the world! At
present, although Calvery Chapel has no real doctrinal profession as do most
major denominations, and thus should be categorized as a non-denominational
church, it has grown so large that it is currently listed as a major
"denomination" on at least one website devoted to the demographics of
Christianity in the U.S.A.! But Chuck Smith has pretty much stayed the same
as the first time I ever saw him. He still seems to wear a suit until it
wears out. He lives in no lavish house, nor drives an overpriced car. He
does no advertising or promotional schemes for his ministry. And as far as
I know, he owns no real property (i.e. real estate) but the house he and his
family live in. To me, he is the epitome of a man of God.
Now why on earth did I tell you all of this? For two reasons mainly, both
of which I hope you will take to heart and be encouraged. The first reason
is that in my life the relationship I have with God is the most personal
thing possible. When God made Himself known to me we were alone in eternity
for that brief moment of temporal time, and I can still hear His voice
tearing through every wall I'd ever erected against Him...saying, "I love
you". As long as I live, no matter whether I'm saved or lost in eternity, I
will always have that moment in His presence that made all physical reality
into the shadow I have since come to know that it is. I know like I know
that I'm sitting here tonight writing this, that the God I worship and love
IS God; that He does as HE will and when He chooses to do it. He can use
one of His children for a moment, an hour, or a lifetime...but nothing we do
will make Him choose which it will be in our lives. He acts according to no
"biblical formula" of holiness, for all such "formulae" are merely the
limited human understanding of who He is. The Spirit goes where He will.
When He comes it is not because He was invited in faith, but because He
chooses to come. When He leaves it is not because He was asked to go by our
actions (even though we can grieve Him by our actions), but because He
chooses to go for His own purposes.
What am I trying to say here? Simply that no man, no matter how wonderfully
used of God he is; no matter how much his ministry has grown by the blessing
and strengthening of the Spirit, no matter how much he trusts in God; no man
has a guarantee from God that He will continue to use him in the future as
He has in the past. The Bible tells us that Jesus, God the Son, described
John the Baptist as greater in the Spirit than any other man who had ever
lived! Yet at the end of his life, languishing in Herod the tetrarch's
prison, waiting to be beheaded, the Spirit apparently withdrew from him,
prompting him to send to Jesus for the answers to the doubt that had begun
to grow in the Spirit's absence, like some fetid mushroom in the dark. Why
would the Spirit do this to such a loyal servant when his need for
strengthening and reassurance from God was at its zenith? Perhaps to make
of John an example for all the generations of disciples to come. To show us
graphically that whether the Spirit is obviously immersing us in His abiding
glory and blessing so that no cup can hold it, or seemingly deserting us, we
all need to look to Jesus for our answers and assurances, for this is the
will of the Father. I truly believe that when John's disciples returned to
him with Jesus' words, John trusted in those words and the Spirit returned
to strengthen him until the very last, and then ushered him into the throne
room of God...having, even in his moment of doubt and spiritual loneliness,
done all that God had asked.
What does this have to do with Binny Hinn? Or your reaction to criticisms
of him and his ministry? Simply this: Binny Hinn doesn't matter all that
much to the work of God, nor does his ministry. Chuck Smith doesn't matter
all that much, nor does his ministry. John the Baptist didn't matter all
that much either! It is Jesus that matters. God works through men
sometimes, and sometimes He works without them. The men don't matter; it is
the work of God, the Son of God who is awesome. If I were to find out
tomorrow that Chuck Smith had been salting away millions of dollars over the
years by skimming the tithes, it would bother me very little. If Binny Hinn
is ever found to be providing false miracles as spiritual "entertainment"
for his flock, or engaging in some other heinous act of fraud, that
shouldn't bother you either. It is not Chuck or Binny who calls us. It is
not Chuck or Binny who leads and guides us. It is the Spirit working in and
through them AT THE TIME they are a blessing to us that we look to, and the
Spirit can use ANYONE
So please don't make decisions on who you will fellowship with and who you
will turn away from based simply on what they think of a minister you think
is special. Doing this would be giving place to the devil, not walking in
the Spirit. Who knows, next week or next momth, if you stay that long, the
Spirit may use you to say exactly what needs to be said to a unique
individual at exactly the correct time, and you will be truly blessed by God
for trusting only in Him, waiting only on Him, loving Him first before all
others.
May the Lord bless and keep you
Chuck Stamford
>
>
Christine
Wow! that was just a wonderful testimonial, thank you.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
...ahhhhhh such a sweet sweet mystery....
Diana
Nice to meet you and thanks for a very nice post and for sharing with
all of us.
Diana
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ekZ0b.9122$S_.850@fed1read01...
Upon This Rock
> news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > If we cannot stand up for Benny Hinn whom we have seen, how can we say
we
> > love God whom we have not seen?
reluctantly snipped to focus in......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is one of the most wise and Spirit led offering of words from the heart
of the Spirit of God that I have ever seen put to print, and it pales many
others into significance...I sense a true kindred spirit with you, for much
of what you have said about God and his interaction with you has occurred to
me as well, and you have also given me an understanding of the withdrawals
that occur in principal, for they are only "withdrawals" not "leavings" as
it is become a season like the Lord once told me..."There will be seasons
when the presence of My Spirit will not be readily manifest in order that
your faith may be tested"...I am going to be saving this to file and
meditating and praying upon it, for I need deeper understanding in these
things....
Love in the Lord, Upon this rock/fervent
Upon This Rock
Typo removal sorry meant to write "insignificance" in line three....
> This is one of the most wise and Spirit led offering of words from the
heart
> of the Spirit of God that I have ever seen put to print, and it pales many
> others into "insignificance"...I sense a true kindred spirit with you, for
Vera Six
great post!
Be blessed,
Vera
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:ekZ0b.9122$S_.850@fed1read01...
Vera Six
I do not want you to leave here.
But I do not stand up for Benny Hinn, either.
I have never heard about him before I came to this group.
He is just another man, nothing more.
I only stand up for our Lord Jesus Christ.
I really would love to forgive you, Brother.
You should know the Holy Ghost is not only present
when somebody is speaking in tongues. He is not restricted
to that, and inside of any believer there is, as He makes
faith possible. If you say somebody has no Holy Spirit,
you tell him not to believe at all.
Forgive me if I hurt you by anything. I did not mean to.
To stop all the fighting, I reach you my hand herewith.
I hope you can take it. We do not have to share all views
to be one body, do we?
Is that okay with you?
Vera
"Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
Griz
with all things of the Spirit, very timely too.
I thank God for you and for your willingness to speak when He say, "Speak".
(or "type"!).
I agree -- this whole thing with Benny Hinn is a tempest in a teapot and
really means little in the grand scheme of things. What matters, is Jesus
Christ -- crucified for our sins and raised to life three days later.
That is what our Salvation hinges upon -- not any man or ministry or
observance or manifestation or gift.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brian Garrison
Wayne,
Please don't go. This is how God is glorified: In spite of our
differences in theology and ministry, we put our love of Christ before
all. I know Vera as a very godly woman, she will forgive and forget.
These things happen from time to time. Don't beat yourself up.
Glorfy God with all the other believers and stand for God. Join in
the victory and resist Satan by refusing to divide the body.
Praise Him!
-Brian
The Enigma
Dear Wayne,
For starters, please don't leave the group! Benny Hinn is not worth
leaving over.
Secondly, I admit that I do not accept what Benny Hinn does or teaches
based on his many false prophecies and bad doctrines. Most of what he
does, there is not a scriptural basis for them.
Benny Hinn has made numerous proclamations about the return of Jesus
Christ. He has said that Jesus is appearing in physical form to the
Muslims. He also prophesied that Jesus was going to appear in
"physical form" on stage at one of his crusades. Wayne, there is no
denying that such claims as his is blasphemy and our Savior prophesied
about such people:
Matthew 24:23 'Then if any one may say to you, Lo, here 'is' the
Christ! or here! ye may not believe; 24 for there shall arise false
Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and
wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
There are many other prophecies that Benny Hinn has been wrong on, but
claiming that Jesus Christ is going to appear in physical form on
stage is the worst in my opinion. This is a False Prophecy, my
friend. Please observe Deuteronomy 18:22:
22 that which the prophet speaketh in the name of Jehovah, and the
thing is NOT, and cometh NOT -- it is the word which Jehovah hath NOT
spoken; in PRESUMPTION hath the prophet spoken it; -- thou art not
afraid of him.
I highlighted a few words in CAPS to emphasize what is being said in
Deuteronomy 18:22. Benny Hinn has made a lot of "presumptions" and
called them Prophecy! Presumptions passed off as Prophecy is False
Prophecy! It's one thing to teach something where others may find
fault with the teaching, because in most instances the teaching has
come from studying with a human mind. It's possible to miss scripture
or misunderstand scripture when approaching it with a human mind. A
Prophecy, on the other hand, carries a connotation that the God Most
High is speaking *through* that person and scripturally speaking, that
is consistent. People can make mistakes on teaching based on faulty
studying, but there are *ZERO* mistakes when it comes to Prophecy if
it comes from God. If there is a mistake or the prophecy does not
come to pass, it's false! Let's continue with Matthew 24:25:
25Lo, I did tell you beforehand. 26'If therefore they may say to
you, Lo, in the wilderness he is, ye may not go forth; lo, in the
inner chambers, ye may not believe; 27for as the lightning doth come
forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also
the presence of the Son of Man;
Do you believe that if someone says Christ is appearing in places
other than the wilderness or the inner chambers that he is really
there? Of course not! However, millions of Christians are feeding on
the false prophecies of Benny Hinn. They turn a blind eye to the
blatant heresies and false prophesy. This isn't a matter of a mistake
in teaching. He's making a mockery of all the real Prophets that were
*TORTURED* AND *KILLED* because of their Prophesies! If you don't
know about any of the Prophets that were killed in scripture, read 1
Kings 19. Try and imagine how desperate Elijah was in his prayer. He
was so worried because he felt he was the only Prophet taking a stand
for God. The "he's only a man, and men make mistakes" defense for
Benny Hinn (I'm not saying you used this) is not a valid defense for
someone who utters false prophesies. Real Prophets for God are
*NEVER* wrong.
Wayne, I have no interest in debating on the topic of tongues, slain
in the spirit, prosperity doctrines, healings ONLY at crusades,
ect...because those topics are debatable. However, I'm *PLEADING*
with you to not support, take a stand for, or continue to feed on the
heresies of a False Prophet! There is *NO* scriptural support for
false prophets being accepted on any level. I could point you to
articles, audio clips, and false prophesies made by Benny Hinn that
are legitimate. I could point out programs aired on TBN that you
could purchase from them as well. I don't think there is a Christian
alive that would want to debate that False Prophesies are O.K.
Why would you stand up for a known False Prophet?
Folks, where is the outrage?!?! I am outraged that Benny Hinn
continues to miss the mark completely in his Prophesies and *NO ONE*
appears to be holding him accountable. It offends me that he
continues to be on The Baal Network with his millions of followers,
knowing that he is a False Prophet. Like I said above, it offends me
because it does make a *mockery* of the Real Prophets that were
zealous for God and were killed because of it!
Besides that, one has to wonder the following:
1. If he has the gift of tongues, why does he need interpreters when
he goes to foreign countries?
2. If he has the gift of healing, why is he not visiting the Hospitals
and healing the sick? I don't doubt that if *ANYONE* on A.C.C. truly
had the gift of healing, the last thing any of you would be doing is
holding crusades and collecting money. I know *ALL* of you would be
visiting the nursing homes and hospitals healing the sick. If I'm
wrong about anyone here, then shame on you for even considering an
exploitation of the Holy Spirit.
JPF
BTW love both Chucks, Smith and Swindol.
Be blessed.
Joy <><
John D
<shells...@cox.net> wrote:
>What does this have to do with Binny Hinn? Or your reaction to criticisms
>of him and his ministry? Simply this: Binny Hinn doesn't matter all that
>much to the work of God, nor does his ministry. Chuck Smith doesn't matter
>all that much, nor does his ministry. John the Baptist didn't matter all
>that much either! It is Jesus that matters. God works through men
>sometimes, and sometimes He works without them. The men don't matter; it is
>the work of God, the Son of God who is awesome. If I were to find out
>tomorrow that Chuck Smith had been salting away millions of dollars over the
>years by skimming the tithes, it would bother me very little. If Binny Hinn
>is ever found to be providing false miracles as spiritual "entertainment"
>for his flock, or engaging in some other heinous act of fraud, that
>shouldn't bother you either. It is not Chuck or Binny who calls us. It is
>not Chuck or Binny who leads and guides us. It is the Spirit working in and
>through them AT THE TIME they are a blessing to us that we look to, and the
>Spirit can use ANYONE
Hear, hear! Well said!
Chuck Stamford
"Christine" <savedb...@hotmail.ca> wrote in message
news:ooo8kv8lv7302rn2i...@4ax.com...
And all too often for my carnal nature a bittersweet mystery. It encourages
me that you are encouraged.
God bless you and yours
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
I have always believed that the eternal Spirit of God is not a capricious
Person. The Person I met twenty-five years ago could not possibly be
Someone who moves in, then moves out, then moves in again ad infinitum;
driven this way and that by our present mood, level of faith, or feelings.
I'm not sure I can confidently profess a "Once saved always saved" type of
Christianity (but then again there are several biblical passages that seem
to be saying just that!), but I DO know who God is. He is eternal,
unchanging selfless Love between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
He is Love so intense and pure that the Scripture rightly calls Him "...a
consuming fire", and all that draws near becomes either immersed within that
Fire or refined away into smoke and ash. He does not "decree" this; it is
just how who He is MUST relate to what He has created. Yet He is humble,
meek, and full of mercy, so that for all of His desire for us and in spite
of His eternal purpose to hold us close within Himself, He keeps just enough
distance so that we are not destroyed.
By His Spirit He invites us to lay hold of the faith in His Son He has given
to each by the ministry of His Spirit, and He warns us that we must wrap
ourselves tight within, leaving nothing we expect to take with us into
eternity outside of that wedding garment as we enter into the pure glory of
His presence at the marriage feast of His Son.
If there is one question a Christian can truly and rightly ask of God, it
has to be why do you love me so? You have no need for me. You lack
absolutely nothing. You are perfect in all of Your ways. Why would You
love a thing such as I, and at such unfathomable cost to Yourself? I know
that I don't think of this as often as I should, and I doubt I'm much
different than most, but what of God's heartache, His unending grief over
those countless numbers whom He will eternally love, yet who will not have
this "wedding garment" to shield them from the infinite heat of the pure
love between Father, Son, and Spirit? He could have so easily created
nothing at all and avoid this unimaginable pain, yet here we are, both lost
and saved. Love that has done what has been done for things such as me is
truly something to meditate on for the rest of our eternal lives. Glory to
God in the highest!
The Lord bless and keep you and yours
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
"John D" <johnyay...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f4522e6....@news.supernews.com...
And well met, John.
God bless and keep you and yours
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
"JPF" <f8th...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:IY61b.102$0z3.3...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ekZ0b.9122$S_.850@fed1read01...
> >
> >
> BTW love both Chucks, Smith and Swindol.
> Be blessed.
> Joy <><
You know Chuck Smith? Small world afterall.
Btw, I love your name. :-)
God bless you and yours
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
"Vera Six" <ver...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:bi2l8h$eer$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Hi Chuck,
>
> great post!
>
> Be blessed,
>
> Vera
Thank you for the blessing, Vera. I read your apology to Wayne, and
although I didn't see any of the posts from either of you that apparently
caused the rift in your fellowship, seeing you offer the olive branch was a
real blessing for me. Now if Wayne will only respond to you in like manner
my joy and my purpose in posting will be complete.
Chuck Stamford
"Griz" <gr...@cois.on.ca> wrote in message
news:vk9nvse...@corp.supernews.com...
> A wonderful offering to the group and an inspiring testimony Chuck. And
as
> with all things of the Spirit, very timely too.
>
> I thank God for you and for your willingness to speak when He say,
"Speak".
> (or "type"!).
>
> I agree -- this whole thing with Benny Hinn is a tempest in a teapot and
> really means little in the grand scheme of things. What matters, is Jesus
> Christ -- crucified for our sins and raised to life three days later.
> That is what our Salvation hinges upon -- not any man or ministry or
> observance or manifestation or gift.
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz
Good to hear from you again, Craig. I'm glad to see that the newsgroup
still has so many Christians posting to it. I only hope it hasn't just lost
one.
When I wrote this last post, I believed that for the moment it was more
important to the Lord to set priorities in order than it was to preach
against some of the abuses of the gifts of the Spirit that go on in various
churches today. I don't know for a fact that Binny Hinn is encouraging
these kinds of abuse, so I really have nothing to say about him one way or
the other. However, these kinds of abuses DO go on, and I know this from my
own personal experience. They are not just confined to a given person,s
ministry either. They can crop up anywhere; in this person or that; at this
time or another. This was the other thing I was hoping to bring out; that
the Spirit "moves" according to His own unfathomable purposes, and no
ministry on earth can hold Him...or drive Him away! For example, I don't
believe anyone has ever been given the "gift of healing" on a continuing
basis. Almost no one is ever that sick! :-) No, really, I've often
wondered if the orthodox view of the gift of healing isn't too focused on
the human intermediary, and completely blind to who it is that gets well
when it operates.
Chuck Stamford
"Diana" <(H)(U)(G)(S)> wrote in message
> Hi Chuck
> Nice to meet you and thanks for a very nice post and for sharing with
> all of us.
>
> Diana
It's a pleasure to meet you also, Diana. I read over a few of your more
recent posts, and have been impressed by the spirit (Spirit) in which they
are written.
God bless you
Chuck Stamford
P.S. What the "hugs" about?
Chuck Stamford
> "Upon This Rock" <fer...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
> news:C%11b.6589$K44.266@edtnps84...
>
> Typo removal sorry meant to write "insignificance" in line three....
Not to worry, fervent. The Lord uses everything. For example, your "typo"
brought to mind just how important "context" is when we read a word in the
Bible! :-)
Diana
Thanks for your kindness. The Hugs are just for a warm greeting. I
like giving hugs and getting hugs. I hope a hurting heart when sees my
"Hugs" will know that I care about them.
Thanks again
Diana
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Umj1b.10825$S_.6695@fed1read01...
Vera Six
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:jgj1b.10822$S_.5125@fed1read01...
I would be very happy about this, too, Chuck.
I hope that Wayne will agree. He has done a great job
in this group by now. I really would not like to lose him.
Thank you for your kind words. :-)
We are to forgive, aren't we?
Shalom,
and have another great day in the Lord today,
and I hope you will stay here with us,
Vera
Griz
>When I wrote this last post, I believed that for the moment it was more
>important to the Lord to set priorities in order than it was to preach
>against some of the abuses of the gifts of the Spirit that go on in various
>churches today. I don't know for a fact that Binny Hinn is encouraging
>these kinds of abuse, so I really have nothing to say about him one way or
>the other. However, these kinds of abuses DO go on, and I know this from
>my own personal experience.
As do I. We would be fools to deny that such things do go on -- for
wherever there is something good and holy the devil will offer up miriad
corruptions of it.
And I wonder if sheer volume of corruptions he sets against something is any
indication of how close to the truth it strikes and the more devoted he is
to sullying it at all costs!?
Nobody can deny that there are abuses of spiritual gifts -- for even Jesus
spoke about this. But I firmly believe that when God's people are strong in
Him and listening to the Holy Spirit, such abuses will be testified against
by the Spirit of God Himself.
Rather than stand by and blow sirens and whistles (which deep down is really
a pride ploy), we should work to strengthen the body of Christ so each
person will know the Spirit's voice in their own hearts and they will
receive their warnings fresh and piping-hot and from the source -- rather
than as a "re-heat left-over" from middle-man!
Show a wise man a folly, and you will guard him from that particular folly
at that particular time. But give a wise man the tools to detect folly, and
you will have helped guard him from ALL folly for ALL time.
The devil bastardizes the Spiritual gifts because he knows that thru them,
we will be able to clearly discern his nefarious ploys. If he can scare
people away from even seeking them lest they start clucking like a chicken
in public, then he can continue to work in secret and mislead many.
> No, really, I've often
>wondered if the orthodox view of the gift of healing isn't too focused on
>the human intermediary, and completely blind to who it is that gets well
>when it operates.
Exactly. If our eyes are off of the One from whom all blessings flow we are
open to deception. If we are relying upon the healer to carry that ability
around within themselves and be able to turn it off and on like a switch,
then our eyes are on a person and what they can do for us (pride) and not on
what God might have in mind for that particular instance.
Not everyone is healed. Some of us, like Paul, carries infirmities and
afflictions and thorns throughout our lives so that when, in spite of the,
we publically claim that His grace is sufficient for us people will sit up
and take notice. To worship a God that is able to heal, even though healing
may not be visited upon us, is one of those things the worldly mind simply
cannot comprehend!
But something that those who are known by Jesus, understand and relate to!
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Pure Joy
> "Wayne W." <hwa...@nospam.sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:q3U0b.1391$QK1...@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com...
> > If we cannot stand up for Benny Hinn whom we have seen, how can we say
we
> > love God whom we have not seen?
> >
this
> > NG after all. I was hoping to unite us in prayer, but taking up for
> Benny
> > Hinn led me to write things hard to be understood, and I have been
> > blackballed by several. Even one whom I thought shared my love for the
> > Church, and me. God bless you Vera.
> >
> > Do you want me to leave this group? I leave it in God's and your hands.
> >
> >
> > Yours in Christ Jesus,
> > Wayne W.
> >
"Upon This Rock" <fer...@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:WoU0b.21$XS....@news0.telusplanet.net...
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Many detest this ministry...
>
> I sat in his brother Henry Hinn's congregation in Vancouver BC for three
> years twice a week...Henry spoke of his brother often, of course....
>
> I find they tend to a definite "showmanship." I find that detracts from a
> sincere message somehow, yet I believe both of these brothers are called
to
> evangelist....
>
> I think the biggest spot against the ministry of Benny Hinn is that it has
> taken of too much of a pray TV appearance....too flashy.....but Benny
always
> gives God glory for healings...He claims no part in it really. All the
> healed ones come up to him to announce they were healed..."out there" in
the
> masses....
>
> I think it would be expected to have opposition.. that is a sign of the
> Lord's work, for all spiritual things are birthed in adversity....
>
> utr
I think it's like this....
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a
devil.
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a
man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But
wisdom is justified of her children.
someone will always find something to gripe about regardless
Pure Joy
Chuck Stamford
"Diana" <(H)(U)(G)(S)> wrote in message
> Hi Chuck,
> Thanks for your kindness. The Hugs are just for a warm greeting. I
> like giving hugs and getting hugs. I hope a hurting heart when sees my
> "Hugs" will know that I care about them.
>
> Thanks again
> Diana
An excellent thought...keep thinking it. :-)
Chuck
Chuck Stamford
> Hi Chuck
>
> >When I wrote this last post, I believed that for the moment it was more
> >important to the Lord to set priorities in order than it was to preach
> >against some of the abuses of the gifts of the Spirit that go on in
various
> >churches today. I don't know for a fact that Binny Hinn is encouraging
> >these kinds of abuse, so I really have nothing to say about him one way
or
> >the other. However, these kinds of abuses DO go on, and I know this from
> >my own personal experience.
>
> As do I. We would be fools to deny that such things do go on -- for
> wherever there is something good and holy the devil will offer up miriad
> corruptions of it.
> And I wonder if sheer volume of corruptions he sets against something is
any
> indication of how close to the truth it strikes and the more devoted he is
> to sullying it at all costs!?
He's a crazed and crafty cat. I doubt we're going to come up with any
"formulae" here, especially when perhaps the strongest of us that has ever
drawn breath tells us simply to "stay inside the armor at all times"!
>
> Nobody can deny that there are abuses of spiritual gifts -- for even Jesus
> spoke about this. But I firmly believe that when God's people are strong
in
> Him and listening to the Holy Spirit, such abuses will be testified
against
> by the Spirit of God Himself.
Amen. This is what happens when the God we are worshipping is a living God!
> Rather than stand by and blow sirens and whistles (which deep down is
really
> a pride ploy), we should work to strengthen the body of Christ so each
> person will know the Spirit's voice in their own hearts and they will
> receive their warnings fresh and piping-hot and from the source -- rather
> than as a "re-heat left-over" from middle-man!
>
> Show a wise man a folly, and you will guard him from that particular folly
> at that particular time. But give a wise man the tools to detect folly,
and
> you will have helped guard him from ALL folly for ALL time.
>
> The devil bastardizes the Spiritual gifts because he knows that thru them,
> we will be able to clearly discern his nefarious ploys. If he can scare
> people away from even seeking them lest they start clucking like a chicken
> in public, then he can continue to work in secret and mislead many.
His lies haven't changed all that much since Genesis chapter two...produce
doubt in the goodness of God.
>
> > No, really, I've often
> >wondered if the orthodox view of the gift of healing isn't too focused on
> >the human intermediary, and completely blind to who it is that gets well
> >when it operates.
>
> Exactly. If our eyes are off of the One from whom all blessings flow we
are
> open to deception. If we are relying upon the healer to carry that
ability
> around within themselves and be able to turn it off and on like a switch,
> then our eyes are on a person and what they can do for us (pride) and not
on
> what God might have in mind for that particular instance.
> Not everyone is healed. Some of us, like Paul, carries infirmities and
> afflictions and thorns throughout our lives so that when, in spite of the,
> we publically claim that His grace is sufficient for us people will sit up
> and take notice. To worship a God that is able to heal, even though
healing
> may not be visited upon us, is one of those things the worldly mind simply
> cannot comprehend!
> But something that those who are known by Jesus, understand and relate to!
It probably speaks volumes about me as a person, but perhaps the most
powerful sermon I ever heard preached I heard on a Christian radio station
by a man whose name I've completely forgotten. He was so crippled by his
physical condition that it took about ten minutes of careful attention to
begin to understand him when he spoke, yet once I caught on his love of the
Lord and his constant message of sheer praises for the goodness and mercy of
God continually being poured out upon him would have been difficult for even
the stoniest heart to ignore. The man was a miracle of God BECAUSE of his
infirmities, and I believe this is true in all cases where God does not heal
the physical. It may not always be apparent to all of us...but it is my
belief that there is always someone out there for whom God's NOT healing is
a miracle.
May the Lord continue to bless you as you seek Him
Chuck
Chuck Stamford
>
> "Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:jgj1b.10822$S_.5125@fed1read01...
> >
> > "Vera Six" <ver...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > news:bi2l8h$eer$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
> > > Hi Chuck,
> > >
> > > great post!
> > >
> > > Be blessed,
> > >
> > > Vera
> >
> > Thank you for the blessing, Vera. I read your apology to Wayne, and
> > although I didn't see any of the posts from either of you that
apparently
> > caused the rift in your fellowship, seeing you offer the olive branch
was a
> > real blessing for me. Now if Wayne will only respond to you in like
manner
> > my joy and my purpose in posting will be complete.
>
> I would be very happy about this, too, Chuck.
>
> I hope that Wayne will agree. He has done a great job
> in this group by now. I really would not like to lose him.
>
> Thank you for your kind words. :-)
>
> We are to forgive, aren't we?
Beyond the impossible.
>
> Shalom,
> and have another great day in the Lord today,
> and I hope you will stay here with us,
>
> Vera
Thank you for the invite, Vera. Time is a little tight right now, but Lord
willing, I'll be popping in and out indefinitely.
May our Lord grant you peace all the days of your life
Chuck
Griz
You said:
>>>However, these kinds of abuses [of Spiritual gifts] DO go on, and I know
>>>this from my own personal experience.
>
>> As do I. We would be fools to deny that such things do go on -- for
>> wherever there is something good and holy the devil will offer up miriad
>> corruptions of it.
>> And I wonder if sheer volume of corruptions he sets against something is
>>any
>> indication of how close to the truth it strikes and the more devoted he
is
>> to sullying it at all costs!?
>He's a crazed and crafty cat. I doubt we're going to come up with any
>"formulae" here, especially when perhaps the strongest of us that has ever
>drawn breath tells us simply to "stay inside the armor at all times"!
Let's be careful we don't insult the cats!
And amen on the armor comment. Paul is painting a picture that would
identify with all the people in his original audience - a well-protected,
nigh invulnerable (by their standards) warrior ready to face whatever might
be tossed or fired his way.
That is how well-protected we should spiritually be every day when we step
out into the world -- and ESPECIALLY when we venture into spiritual
battlefields. They are invisible, but you can recognize them by the knot
that forms in your belly. If you're not protected, step back and reaffirm
your protection in Christ.
>>But I firmly believe that when God's people are strong
>>in Him and listening to the Holy Spirit, such abuses will be testified
>>against by the Spirit of God Himself.
>Amen. This is what happens when the God we are worshipping is a living
>God!
And only if. Games of applying Scriptures like a prescription salve won't
cut it in a spiritual battlefield. Only by getting past the application of
mere words and into the very principles of God will you be protected, and
able to discern when the ultimate counterfeiter is at work.
>> The devil bastardizes the Spiritual gifts because he knows that thru
them,
>> we will be able to clearly discern his nefarious ploys. If he can scare
>> people away from even seeking them lest they start clucking like a
chicken
>> in public, then he can continue to work in secret and mislead many.
>
>His lies haven't changed all that much since Genesis chapter two...produce
>doubt in the goodness of God.
Another good one he uses is to get our eyes off of Christ and things of
kingdom-benefit onto issues of self and self-benefit. Gift-worship is all
about what God can do for you. Christ-worship is all about what we can do
as an act of worship unto Him.
> The man was a miracle of God BECAUSE of his
>infirmities, and I believe this is true in all cases where God does not
heal
>the physical. It may not always be apparent to all of us...but it is my
>belief that there is always someone out there for whom God's NOT healing is
>a miracle.
I can testify to that. My mother was a miracle because God elected not to
heal her. I couldn't see that until the day of her funeral. The miracle
was in the sheer number who attended and that several of them made deeper
commitments to Christ! At a funeral! (There was even rumor of someone
saved!)
And I had never been to a reception afterwards that was more of a
celebration of life than a mourning of death. The moving of God through my
mother's life continued even after her physical death.
God does work miracles. Just not always the one WE think He should work.
And the ones He works in His way, are always so much better than the ones WE
thought He should work. We need to remember, He has his sights set on
eternity -- whereas we usually have our sights set no farther than the tips
of our own noses!
Yours in Christ,
Craig
Vera Six
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:15j3b.21011$S_.14379@fed1read01...
I would really appreciate it, Chuck.
I hope you will come to the big party next month... :-)
> May our Lord grant you peace all the days of your life
>
> Chuck
Be blessed,
Vera
Chuck Stamford
>
<snip>
>
> I hope you will come to the big party next month... :-)
Big party? You lost me here, Vera. What are you talking about?
God bless
Chuck
Wayne W.
stronger than ever in the Lord. We are at 48 churches, and growing. God is
going to get us together in the Spirit, because we are too stubborn to get
together in the flesh. ROFLOL.
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Wayne W.
Chuck Stamford
It was nice to hear from you again. I've added a few comments of my own
below to your excellent reply. Although we seem to express ourselves very
differently, it also seems to me we are in perfect accord on this subject.
"Griz" <gr...@cois.on.ca> wrote in message
news:vks78nn...@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Chuck
>
> You said:
> >>>However, these kinds of abuses [of Spiritual gifts] DO go on, and I
know
> >>>this from my own personal experience.
> >
> >> As do I. We would be fools to deny that such things do go on -- for
> >> wherever there is something good and holy the devil will offer up
miriad
> >> corruptions of it.
> >> And I wonder if sheer volume of corruptions he sets against something
is
> >>any
> >> indication of how close to the truth it strikes and the more devoted he
> is
> >> to sullying it at all costs!?
>
> >He's a crazed and crafty cat. I doubt we're going to come up with any
> >"formulae" here, especially when perhaps the strongest of us that has
ever
> >drawn breath tells us simply to "stay inside the armor at all times"!
>
> Let's be careful we don't insult the cats!
Peter said it first, Craig:
"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt
you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. Be
sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a
roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour"; 1 Peter 5:6-8 (NKJV)
> And amen on the armor comment. Paul is painting a picture that would
> identify with all the people in his original audience - a well-protected,
> nigh invulnerable (by their standards) warrior ready to face whatever
might
> be tossed or fired his way.
>
> That is how well-protected we should spiritually be every day when we step
> out into the world -- and ESPECIALLY when we venture into spiritual
> battlefields. They are invisible, but you can recognize them by the knot
> that forms in your belly. If you're not protected, step back and reaffirm
> your protection in Christ.
The temporal world, so the Bible informs us, is filled with two basic types
of "beings" (animate and inanimate), spiritual beings and physical beings.
Of the two we are told, only the spiritual beings are truly "real", and the
physical beings are to some degree only shadowy reflections of that true
spiritual reality that finds its sole ground of being in God. I believe
this, which means that for me there is NO place on earth where there is not
a raging spiritual battle going on right now. We don't have to "venture"
anywhere but consciousness to be totally engaged in spiritual combat on a
moment to moment basis.
I know what you mean though about the physical sensation you can sometimes
feel when you enter someplace that is dedicated to turning away God's
children from His eternal Truth in Christ. I once went with a couple of
Christian brothers to the opening ceremony for a new Mormon stake center (a
"stake center" is what the Mormons call one of their local churches). We
did this by the leading of the Spirit in answer to our prayers for the
salvation of Mormons, but when we'd prayed we hadn't really thought in terms
of going to this ceremony and giving them the Gospel. On the way there that
"knot" you spoke of was born in my stomach. I hadn't been a Christian very
long, didn't know the Bible all that well, and had never witnessed to a
stranger in my life, but I'd prayed, He'd answered, and I went...fear and
all. And once we got there we had no idea what exactly the Lord wanted us
to do, except give these people the Gospel as or providing the Lord opened a
door for us to do that.
We got there a little early and felt like the biggest square pegs in a round
hole ever. We just looked at each other wondering what the Lord would do
next...I mean after physically getting us there. We were looking for
"doors" without having any real idea of what one was going to look like when
we found it! Nothing happened in the parking lot. No one came up to us or
started a conversation, and that's what we'd decided we'd wait for as a sign
from God which of the congregation He had prepared to hear His Truth. It
came time for the service to begin...so we piled in with everybody else.
Now I've already said we were pretty nervous outside, but that was just
because no one could see the One who'd invited us. The nervousness came
from the not knowing for sure what was going to happen or how God was going
to bring it about, and that's a physical sensation completely understandable
in merely human terms. On the way in, and without any design by our little
group of three Christian witnesses, we got separated and ended up sitting in
different sections of the auditorium. We were each more "alone" now than at
any time prior, and I began to REALLY get nervous.
The service began. The leader (a Mormon bishop from another town) led the
congregation in an opening prayer, which as I recall was mostly about how
blessed everyone was to be a Mormon, and people around me are starting to
notice I'm not praying out loud with everyone else. I'm standing there like
a lump, not knowing what God is doing, and people are beginning to notice
me. My nervousness increases yet another notch. Now the bishop begins to
lead the congregation in song, but here again I can't sing along because the
words are only about how great it is to be a Mormon, and I can't bring
myself even to lipsink it. The stares become slightly more pronounced, and
the person next to me offers me a hymnal. Now I don't know what to do. Do
I take it and open it? Do I make some sign of polite refusal? What? God
is being very quiet just then.
I'd been silently praying since the service began, but it had been on the
order of, "Okay, You asked me to come and here I am...what now? This isn't
looking too good You know?" But when my nrevousness reached its zenith with
the simple gesture of that hymnal offering, my prayer changed to an inward
cry, "Could we just be alone for a few moments?", and I was suddenly filled
to overflowing with His Spirit and His peace. He was here and my fears were
gone. He brought with Him one of His gifts, the discerning of spirits. I
had known all along that these people were being decieved by a lie that was
keeping them from the saving grace of God, but up to the moment when God
gave me that gift I maintained somewhere in the back of my mind that this
lie was a lie of men as much as it was a lie of the devil. That idea died
when I began to feel on my skin a sensation as though I were being immersed
in a fog of cold oil. My skin actually began to feel oily to me, yet with
no oil apparent, and the Lord let me know that this was the presence of the
spirit in whose house I stood. Had it not been for the Spirit of the Lord
filling me at that moment, I would have bolted for the door!
The physical sensation only lasted for a few moments (thank God!), and with
God's grace we all (Christians and Mormons alike!) made it through the rest
of the ceremony. It wasn't until after the ceremony, in the parking lot,
that we discovered yet another reason (I've always believed that at least
one reason was so that the Lord could bless me with that gift of spiritual
discernment) the Lord had called us to come. He opened plenty of "doors"
for us to share the Gospel of His Son. We even got to share the Gospel with
the visiting Mormon bishop! No one renounced Mormonism publicly while we
were there, but I've always trusted God when He says His word never returns
to Him void. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the homes
of a few married couples to whom we spoke.
So yes, I believe that we can, and sometimes do have physical sensations of
the spiritual reality surrounding us...but most of the time our feelings are
explainable in terms of human emotions, weaknesses, and perceptions. My
nervousness at being at that ceremony was clearly explainable in human
terms. I was the enemy of their doctrines, a scorned, hated, pitied (take
your pick) Gentile to their eyes, and I was there in their midst uninvited
during a "crowning moment" of Mormonism. The fear was natural. But the
peace that came later in response to my prayers wasn't so natural. I
believed (and still do) that God was the author of that peace, but I suppose
that one who does not believe in God could still strongly argue that this
feeling is a natural result when one has convinced oneself that they now are
completely protected in a hostile environment, even if that protection is
imaginary. However, what can't be so easily argued away was the way in
which I became aware of the spirit of that place. I mean, what's with the
oil?! It's not a feeling that could be called "normal" in the situation I
was in...it isn't even biblical, at least in the sense that someone in the
Bible is ever said to have had a similar experience. And oil is used in the
Bible normally to signify the presence of the Holy Spirit...not a fallen
spirit! Yet there was never a doubt as I felt that sensation as to exactly
what the Lord was letting me "see".
The gifts of the Spirit are as real today as on Pentecost. There is no
"spiritual formula" for their manifestation. The Holy Spirit distributes
them to whomever He wills, and whenever He wants for His own purposes, not
ours. We can make ourselves unavailable to recieve them, but we can't make
the Spirit give one of them to us by simply asking. We can be "baptized" in
the Holy Spirit without the outward manifestation of any of the more
dramatic gifts of the Spirit, for the greatest of these gifts is simply the
love of God (1 Cor. 13). And I believe that every ministry built on a
foundation of manifesting the gifts of the Spirit other than those that are
given to ALL Christians surrendered to God's will in their lives, is a
ministry headed for serious trouble, as this is a foundation made of the
sand of personal experiences and not the Rock upon which we are called to
stand in personal faith.
>
> >>But I firmly believe that when God's people are strong
> >>in Him and listening to the Holy Spirit, such abuses will be testified
> >>against by the Spirit of God Himself.
>
> >Amen. This is what happens when the God we are worshipping is a living
> >God!
>
> And only if. Games of applying Scriptures like a prescription salve won't
> cut it in a spiritual battlefield. Only by getting past the application
of
> mere words and into the very principles of God will you be protected, and
> able to discern when the ultimate counterfeiter is at work.
>
> >> The devil bastardizes the Spiritual gifts because he knows that thru
> them,
> >> we will be able to clearly discern his nefarious ploys. If he can
scare
> >> people away from even seeking them lest they start clucking like a
> chicken
> >> in public, then he can continue to work in secret and mislead many.
> >
> >His lies haven't changed all that much since Genesis chapter
two...produce
> >doubt in the goodness of God.
>
> Another good one he uses is to get our eyes off of Christ and things of
> kingdom-benefit onto issues of self and self-benefit. Gift-worship is all
> about what God can do for you. Christ-worship is all about what we can do
> as an act of worship unto Him.
True. It is kind of paradoxical that we are told to desire the "best gifts"
(a designation in God's word I've always understood to mean the most
appropriate and efficient gift to aid in fulfilling God's will for us in any
given set of circumstances at hand), yet not focus our attention ON the
manifestation of those gifts of the Spirit. It is a fine line to thread; to
desire that which you should not focus upon when it is given. It is also
ironic that too much emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit manifesting in the
life of the minister or believer can actually be a symptom of a weak faith.
We are called to follow God's word and will in our lives beyond any of our
five senses. A too great emphasis on the public and/or outward display of
the gifts can simply be a desire to walk after the flesh; what our five
senses tell us, rather than after the Spirit in which we've been called. It
brings to my mind the words of Paul to the Galatians, "...having begun in
the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh?" And this can lead into
taking experience as our guide instead of God's word, and faith in that
word. It can lead, eventually, into interpreting God's word BY those
experiences instead of according to the full import of what it has to say on
any given subject. And using experience as our guide gives us the truths
that all religions lead to God, the dead can truly be brought up from the
grave by a spiritist, reincarnation of the soul is a reality, and any number
of other lies of Satan. Using experience as our guide, we have taken off
our armor and stand naked before the wiles of an enemy that is so much our
superior in every imaginable category of nature and being (knowledge,
intellect, power, motivation, etc.) that the battle is over before the first
shot is fired.
Once the Christian has reached this kind of "faith" in God's word, I don't
believe they have far to go before they arrive back at nearly the same level
of unbelief as when they hadn't made any commitment to Christ at all! The
only difference between the first state and the last being that the last is
couched in biblical language and a lot of running from charlatan to
charlatan, depending on who currently has the biggest show to put on. If a
person's "foundation" in Christ is the biggest "show" in town, how can they
claim to BE a Christian?
>
> > The man was a miracle of God BECAUSE of his
> >infirmities, and I believe this is true in all cases where God does not
> heal
> >the physical. It may not always be apparent to all of us...but it is my
> >belief that there is always someone out there for whom God's NOT healing
is
> >a miracle.
>
> I can testify to that. My mother was a miracle because God elected not to
> heal her. I couldn't see that until the day of her funeral. The miracle
> was in the sheer number who attended and that several of them made deeper
> commitments to Christ! At a funeral! (There was even rumor of someone
> saved!)
> And I had never been to a reception afterwards that was more of a
> celebration of life than a mourning of death. The moving of God through
my
> mother's life continued even after her physical death.
I am sorry to hear that the Lord has taken your mother from you. I know
that in so doing He has done what is best for you both, but having lost my
own mother as well I know that the loss is not so easy to bear, even knowing
it is by God's will and that it is done out of His great love for you both.
I hope that the Lord has healed the wound so great a personal loss must
leave.
>
> God does work miracles. Just not always the one WE think He should work.
That would be the absolute worst of all possible worlds wouldn't you
think...the one in which God usually did what we thought He should do?
>
> And the ones He works in His way, are always so much better than the ones
WE
> thought He should work. We need to remember, He has his sights set on
> eternity -- whereas we usually have our sights set no farther than the
tips
> of our own noses!
Speak for yourself, Mr. Magoo. I'm one of those who looks far ahead in the
planning of my actions. I have trained my body and mind through meditation,
prayer, and arduous physical exercise year after year until now (on a really
good day!) I can set my sights on dinner right after lunch is finished!
That's GOT to be what...four or five hours ahead? Talk about your far
gazers! :-)
Anyway, just trying to end this on a lighter note.
The Lord bless you and yours
Chuck
Chuck Stamford
> Chuck, thank you for your kindness. I appreciate it. I am here, and
getting
> stronger than ever in the Lord. We are at 48 churches, and growing. God
is
> going to get us together in the Spirit, because we are too stubborn to get
> together in the flesh. ROFLOL.
>
> Yours in Christ Jesus,
> Wayne W.
WAYNE!! BROHAMMMM!
So glad to hear from you and hear that you're doing fine. I've been waiting
with "baited" breath (some of the less sensitive that continually surround
me would call it halitosis, but what do they know!) to see you post again.
I am blessed indeed!!
Oh, btw, stubborn's not necessarily a bad thing. If God were not so
stubborn (and able to bear pain) we'd all be just another idea He could have
created, but didn't! It's what we're stubborn about that defines us all,
not so much the fact that we are. What's that old saying? If you don't
stand for something, you'll fall for anything?
May the Lord bless and keep you and yours
Chuck
P.S. Wayne, some unsolicited advice here (finest kind, right?): It's okay
to laugh at your own jokes, but rolling on the floor while you're doing it
is generally considered gauche. The only time its really socially
acceptable to roll on the floor with laughter is when it's MY joke, okay?
If you can remember this important social skill I'm confident you'll do well
in life :-)
Vera Six
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:W%d4b.22192$S_.47@fed1read01...
yes, there will be a big party here in this group online.
We are just thinking about what to do. I hope there will
be many good ideas. I will open up a special thread for
the ideas later. BTW: It starts on Sept. 23rd 2003, and
will last for a whole month. A party to praise God...
Well, you really should come along then...
> God bless
>
> Chuck
Be blessed, too,
Vera
Chuck Stamford
An excellent idea. Lord willing I'll try to "attend".
Since you're looking for ideas on a specific theme, how about calling it a
"Praise Party". A good theme might be everyone relating a specific example
from their lives in Christ where the Lord has moved in such a powerful way
that it just blew their socks off! Since there has been some recent
discussion here ABOUT the gifts of the Spirit, why not spend the time
sharing with each other the manifestation of those gifts in each of our
lives? It should be a powerful way to encourage each other and praise the
Lord if it is done in the Spirit.
The Lord bless and keep you and yours
Chuck
Griz
>How's by you, Craig?
>
>It was nice to hear from you again. I've added a few comments of my own
>below to your excellent reply. Although we seem to express ourselves very
>differently, it also seems to me we are in perfect accord on this subject.
Very well.
Had a bad back injury around mid-month, but it is healing nicely thanks to
lots of prayer and an understanding boss.
I trust things are well with you and yours?
Isn't that amazing the way God provides numerous insights into His heart --
as many as there are people. But all the true insights, are into the exact
same heart -- His! There is only One God: and though we may each sing a
different song, they all harmonize in a miraculous way when it comes to our
Lord and Saviour!
>>> Let's be careful we don't insult the cats!
>Peter said it first, Craig:
<snip a bit>
>" ...because your adversary the devil walks about like a
>roaring lion..."
LOL! Point well taken.
>The temporal world, so the Bible informs us, is filled with two basic types
>of "beings" (animate and inanimate), spiritual beings and physical beings.
>Of the two we are told, only the spiritual beings are truly "real", and the
>physical beings are to some degree only shadowy reflections of that true
>spiritual reality that finds its sole ground of being in God. I believe
>this, which means that for me there is NO place on earth where there is not
>a raging spiritual battle going on right now. We don't have to "venture"
>anywhere but consciousness to be totally engaged in spiritual combat on a
>moment to moment basis.
An excellent point. For even in the temples of creation, far from man's
influence, creation groans under the weight of the Curse. It will be
fascinating to explore the ecosystems and "energy-webs" of the New Earth (if
such terms are even still applicable!) Where our energy now comes from the
sun - captured in plants that are consumed with energy drop-off occurring at
every level of the chain - I believe our energy will come right from the
Son. In the early days of ACC there was an excellent (but
excessively-trolled thread) on the supposed conditions in the Garden of
Eden, and how in heaven the lion will lay down with the lamb -- indicating
no predation.
Our current ecosystem - still a creation of God - operates in an intricate
and self-sustaining way. But the whole predation thing took me a long time
to understand. Even though we might understand the principles of predation
being essential for the health of the prey-species, there's something
disconcerting about watching a crocodile tearing a zebra to pieces.
(sorry if that's a tad off-topic!)
>I know what you mean though about the physical sensation you can sometimes
>feel when you enter someplace that is dedicated to turning away God's
>children from His eternal Truth in Christ. I once went with a couple of
>Christian brothers to the opening ceremony for a new Mormon stake center (a
>"stake center" is what the Mormons call one of their local churches).
An excellent story. I snipped it only for space.
I think all Christian, if they really seek God's wisdom, are able to "feel"
something when evil is about. The "knot in the stomach" or "uneasiness" are
good ones, but they can also indicate a lot of other things as well (such as
food poisoning!). But with use and practice, we can soon sense quite
accurately when old whatsis or his servants are around. And a Spiritual
Christian vexes them to an incredible degree.
I was in one service (Christadelphian), where I felt uneasy from the start.
When the Lord's Supper was celebrated, I was conspicuously passed by -
because I wasn't part of their "club". When I asked on what Scriptural
grounds they did so, things got interesting!
>We even got to share the Gospel with
>the visiting Mormon bishop! No one renounced Mormonism publicly while we
>were there, but I've always trusted God when He says His word never returns
>to Him void. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the
homes
>of a few married couples to whom we spoke.
Simply amazing! I've had a few "parking lot" enounters as well! Renouncing
or condemning something that someone is currently relying upon, can
oftentimes create more stumbling-blocks than it clears. We really have to
learn to trust that it is NOT our fine words or well-woven arguments or
debates that God has promised to bless so that they do not return void! It
is His word that never returns void.
The best witness -- even in openly-hostile territory -- is still the best
reflection of Christ that we can muster. We've been blessed in this NG to
have seen the ministrations of people like Donna Kupp. Many were able to
discern quite quickly that while her words seemed quite fine at times, her
reflection of Christ was lacking. And when questioned on it, the
condemnations and vile messages from her husband began. Now we've seen the
result condemnations have on those who are resolute in what they believe.
How can we expect the outcome to be any different when we are confronting
spiritual resistance manifest through a person who happens to be very
resolute in what they have chosen to believe apart from the Christ of
Scriptures?
As my father likes to say, you attract more bees with honey than you do with
vinegar. And if our reflection is of Christ, they may taste and see that He
is indeed sweeter than honey - honey from the comb.
>So yes, I believe that we can, and sometimes do have physical sensations of
>the spiritual reality surrounding us...but most of the time our feelings
are
>explainable in terms of human emotions, weaknesses, and perceptions.
A point who's importance cannot be over-expressed. Discernment of spirits
is a gift, but it will come to nothing if you don't work at it. The child
gifted in music might happen across a piano and the gift might flourish --
but never so well or so certainly as when they receive proper lessons.
That knot in the pit of your stomach when you shake someone's hand might
just be aunt Martha's meatloaf coming back to haunt you!
(Discerning meatloaf, is another skill altogether!)
>The gifts of the Spirit are as real today as on Pentecost. There is no
>"spiritual formula" for their manifestation. The Holy Spirit distributes
>them to whomever He wills, and whenever He wants for His own purposes, >not
>ours. We can make ourselves unavailable to recieve them, but we can't make
>the Spirit give one of them to us by simply asking. We can be "baptized"
in
>the Holy Spirit without the outward manifestation of any of the more
>dramatic gifts of the Spirit, for the greatest of these gifts is simply the
>love of God (1 Cor. 13). And I believe that every ministry built on a
>foundation of manifesting the gifts of the Spirit other than those that are
>given to ALL Christians surrendered to God's will in their lives, is a
>ministry headed for serious trouble, as this is a foundation made of the
>sand of personal experiences and not the Rock upon which we are called to
>stand in personal faith.
The only thing I might want to add to this:
While we can't make the Spirit give us a gift by asking for it, we are
encouraged to "eagerly seek" them. As in "be ready in season and out of
season", for in any given situation God will use those who are ready and
willing to be used in a godly way. And my personal view is that just
because a gift is manifest through you once, does not necessarily mean that
it is "yours". (In reality, the gifts are God's to give or take as He sees
fit, but it would seem that we each have one or two that are a true
'inherent' gifting - sometimes masquerading as a part of our personality.
>It is kind of paradoxical that we are told to desire the "best gifts"
>(a designation in God's word I've always understood to mean the most
>appropriate and efficient gift to aid in fulfilling God's will for us in
any
>given set of circumstances at hand), yet not focus our attention ON the
>manifestation of those gifts of the Spirit. It is a fine line to thread;
to
>desire that which you should not focus upon when it is given.
Exactly what I've seen in Scripture as well Chuck. The "best gifts" are not
those that are best for us, but are best for the body; and not in our sight,
but in HIS.
And what a fine line it is.
I see the instances when even Elijah manifest what could be considered the
gift of Miraculous Deeds - calling down fire from heaven, ending a
multi-year drought, and beating the King's Chariot in a footrace over
sevearl kilometres. Yet a very short time later he is running for his life
from the angry Queen Jezebel, and growing despondent in the desert. I mean,
the man has just trounced 850 false-prophets, seen three miracles of God -
one where he out-ran a team of horses - and now he's cowering at the fear of
Jezebel's wrath?
The whole thing of works (especially ones that are clearly Spiritual in
origin) by me/through me/by God through me can really throw a body for a
loop if our humility is not immaculate before the Lord. Many of the highest
peaks are followed by the deepest valleys as we try to make sense out of
things.
>It is also
>ironic that too much emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit manifesting in the
>life of the minister or believer can actually be a symptom of a weak faith.
That it is. It shows we are looking only on the surface. A miraculous sign
is a wonderful thing -- but it has a way of growing old and being set aside
or even explained-away over time. Whereas a faith where there are no signs
to be had, is a very powerful thing.
If the faith is in miracles when the miracles cease, so too does the faith.
>A too great emphasis on the public and/or outward display of
>the gifts can simply be a desire to walk after the flesh
Exactly. It is seeking to buttress a weak faith with fleshly logic.
>A too great emphasis on the public and/or outward display of
>the gifts can simply be a desire to walk after the flesh; what our five
>senses tell us, rather than after the Spirit in which we've been called.
It
>brings to my mind the words of Paul to the Galatians, "...having begun in
>the Spirit are you now made perfect in the flesh?"
>And this can lead into
>taking experience as our guide instead of God's word, and faith in that
>word. It can lead, eventually, into interpreting God's word BY those
>experiences instead of according to the full import of what it has to say
on
>any given subject.
<again, snipping for space only!>
The Holy Spirit leads us through experiences we learn by, but the guide is
always God's word. The Holy Spirit never contravenes the word that He has
given. Now He may cast it in a light that you have never seen or thought of
before!
>It can lead, eventually, into interpreting God's word BY those
>experiences instead of according to the full import of what it has to say
on
>any given subject.
That is why the 'wisdom of the cross' is so vitally important. We need to
go to the cross and empty ourself until we are a totally empty vessel before
seeking God's word, God's face, God's wisdom. If He pours Spiritual wisdom
or insight into a vessel that is not empty and clean, the purity of God's
word is tainted.
I strongly suspect that this is what has happened in the case of ACC's two
favoritest legalists -- indeed to many of the false teachers we encounter.
They might say they have taken their lead from God's word and sought Him in
prayer and meditation and fasting. But if wisdom is received through a
filter of personal experiences, insights, wisdom, or logic, what they often
end up with is a mess that doesn't discern of the Spirit at all.
>Once the Christian has reached this kind of "faith" in God's word, I don't
>believe they have far to go before they arrive back at nearly the same
level
>of unbelief as when they hadn't made any commitment to Christ at all!
Maybe even worse-off than someone who has made no commitment. For they will
whip out God's word (their personal version), try to stand on it to claim
the promises of God, and be called wicked before all and told to depart.
(But possibly not before they are called to account for every single soul
they caused to stumble or led astray).
We should have no delusions that we are talking deadly-serious stuff here.
That is why we need to make sure we are standing firm on the Rock.
>I am sorry to hear that the Lord has taken your mother from you. I know
>that in so doing He has done what is best for you both, but having lost my
>own mother as well I know that the loss is not so easy to bear, even
knowing
>it is by God's will and that it is done out of His great love for you both.
>I hope that the Lord has healed the wound so great a personal loss must
>leave.
I thank you for that Chuck. There were abuse issues with her before her
life was totally given to Christ, and she died with only a hollow "forgiving
her's the right thing to do" lip service for me. Total forgiveness was
given posthumously, as a message I asked to be delivered to her by God.
It was (and somevalleys, still is) my greatest challenge to keep that
forgiveness real. For many years I used her presence in the Kingdom as a
good reason not to want to be there myself.
It's truly wicked some of the ploys the adversary uses against us. And we
are utterly defenseless against them - save in Christ.
>> God does work miracles. Just not always the one WE think He should
>work.
>That would be the absolute worst of all possible worlds wouldn't you
>think...the one in which God usually did what we thought He should do?
It would raise real issues of just who was God and who was the servant!
>> We need to remember, He has his sights set on
>> eternity -- whereas we usually have our sights set no farther than the
>>tips of our own noses!
>Speak for yourself, Mr. Magoo.
LOL! I'm at such an age that I'm just on the cusp of grasping the humour
there!
>I'm one of those who looks far ahead in the
>planning of my actions. I have trained my body and mind through
meditation,
>prayer, and arduous physical exercise year after year until now (on a
really
>good day!) I can set my sights on dinner right after lunch is finished!
>That's GOT to be what...four or five hours ahead? Talk about your far
>gazers! :-)
I'm so far-sighted I've actually conditioned myself to answer the phone when
it rings!
Well, I've enjoyed the chat Chuck!
Take care, and God bless!
Yours in Christ,
Craig
Wayne W.
LOL. You are so funny. What exactly is a broham? And as far as rolling on
the floor, haven't you heard of Holy Rollers? You might have thought those
were nuns on inline skates. <g>
Wayne
Vera Six
great ideas! I'll collect them in a special thread. :-)
Yours in Christ,
Vera
"Chuck Stamford" <shells...@cox.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:bBu4b.22310$S_.13549@fed1read01...
Chuck Stamford
> Hi Chuck.
Hi, Craig. Enjoyed reading your reply...as ususal :-) I've cut most of it
out because all I can add is "Amen". I did leave this little bit of it
here, though, because I found it so interesting that you'd bring it up sort
of "out of the blue" like this:
<snip>
Not just off topic, but temptingly off topic as well. Let me ask you a
question here whose answer isn't clear from your above. But first, let me
clear up a term you've used, i.e., "predation". My question will be using
the word in its most general sense - that action whereby any organism
extracts the energy necessary to carry on its metabolism from another
organism that it destroys in the process. Given that definition of the
word, do you believe that predation existed in the Garden of Eden before the
Fall? Also, was this the consensus of those Christians (ignoring the trolls
here) involved in the earlier thread?
God bless you
Chuck
Chuck Stamford
Sorry, showing my age? Or is it just a collocial thing? Well here's your
answer from the neighborhood of my youth:
"Broham" = "Brother a' mine", and "Brohammmm" = "Really glad to see ya'
brother a' mine".
And as far as rolling on
> the floor, haven't you heard of Holy Rollers? You might have thought those
> were nuns on inline skates. <g>
Please DON'T bring up nuns, okay. I'm a survivor of 12 years of Catholic
schools. It was an experience that was at least partially responsible for
my decision at twelve to renounce my faith in the existence of God. I don't
have fond memories of nuns, priests, brothers, or the Catholic school system
as a whole. I just praise God that His Spirit was able to shine through all
that "holier than thou" nonsense and restore my soul to the eternal life for
which God created it. I was pretty far gone in my 29th year when He let me
know in unmistakable terms that He not only existed, but that He loved me
more than I can express. Alleluiah! Maranatha!
The Lord bless and keep you, Wayne
Chuck
Wayne W.
shouldn't retell. I always thaought it harmless, but then in these last
days, we should make every effort not to offend. Please forgive my
stupidity.
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Wayne
Chuck Stamford wrote:
Mark
stand up for Jesus...and it is in the name of Jesus that the miracles are
taking place...news:W%d4b.22192$S_.47@fed1read01...
Mark
Chuck Stamford
> Sorry about the nuns on skates thing. It is an old protestant joke, that I
> shouldn't retell. I always thaought it harmless, but then in these last
> days, we should make every effort not to offend. Please forgive my
> stupidity.
>
>
> Yours in Christ Jesus,
> Wayne
It's not stupidity on your part, Wayne. It's just venting on mine....over a
time long past and fully recompensed by God's great love and grace toward
me. If I were a better Christian I would have let all that go a long time
ago. You didn't do anything here but accidently kick a rock over in my life
to let us both see what scuttled out from underneath. So please, don't
worry about it, and DEFINITELY don't take any responsibility. The fault is
mine, not yours.
God bless
Chuck
Griz
>Not just off topic, but temptingly off topic as well. Let me ask you a
>question here whose answer isn't clear from your above. But first, let me
>clear up a term you've used, i.e., "predation". My question will be using
>the word in its most general sense - that action whereby any organism
>extracts the energy necessary to carry on its metabolism from another
>organism that it destroys in the process. Given that definition of the
>word, do you believe that predation existed in the Garden of Eden before
the
>Fall? Also, was this the consensus of those Christians (ignoring the
trolls
>here) involved in the earlier thread?
LOL! I thought I remembered us first meeting under a similar thread!
Your definition of predation is interesting. For example, mosquitoes and
ticks prey on us without destroying us in the process. So I would accept
your definition of predation if we can find another word to describe what
various insects do to us!
Maybe a better definition would be "an unwelcomed inposition on another for
the sake of one's own benefit". Then we could also use the term predation
in other arenas, such as the financial!
Now before we get too deep into this, it should be said that we are entering
into pure speculation here! And not just that, but speculation who's
kingdom-relevance is marginal at best. Nobody's speculations on this topic
are likely to affect Salvation or Spiritual growth in any significant
fashion. We need to watch that our speculations do not take precident over
the pure and simple gospel.
Now aside from my early years in church and Bible study, I also a couple
years studying nature in secular studies. I also spent several years under
the teachings of the fellow who grew up in the early 1900's as a "wild
indian" hiding from the white men, never being placed on a reservation -
only seeing pitiful examples of Christ via people with expansionist agendas,
and insisting that all you needed to know about God you could learn through
the temples of Creation (which I've also heard referred to as "the 1st
edition of God's law" (Ps 19:1). So I have a rather unique background to
enter into this speculations on this topic as I have spent many an hour
immersing myself in nature as I now immerse myself in Scripture to
understand God better.
Now other than Gen 2:16
"The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you
may eat freely;" NASB
We are not really told how Adam derrived sustenance before the fall. We can
assume that things "good to eat" just sprung up, speculating from the
description given post-fall where Man had to toil and labour and till the
ground just to feed himself.
I would suggest, that if the passage from Gen 2 can be taken to mean that
ALL of Adam's nourishment was derrived from trees then we are talking about
fruit. And that is not predation because fruit is offered up by trees with
the intent of being attractive to various other mobile species so their
offspring can escape the shade of the parent's canopy.
This supposition of all their nourishment coming from fruit and not from
eating entire plants, in light of Gen 3:18.
". . . And you will eat the plants of the field"
Spoken as if this was something they had not done before.
I share this, because these are all questions I asked myself as I sought to
know God through His works in nature, and believe that as with any artist
the works are a valid reflection of the worker - so such speculations were
not used for prideful debate but to seek a closer vision of God. (If this
debate turns into anything other than seeking a deeper understanding of God,
I'll have to back out, K?)
And in the case of the fruit and the animal vector, it shows a wonderful
inter-dependency of species. The tree labours to produce that which is of
use to another, in exchange for the use of their mobility to give their
offspring a better chance at success. In the modern case of apples and
deer, the seeds are designed to pass unharmed through their digestive tract
to be deposited in <ahem> a nitrogen-rich environment.
So further, we could speculate that the first recorded act of predation was
in Gen 3:7 when the man and woman took fig leaves for a purpose not
orignally intended - to make themselves loin coverings.
And the second would have been by God Himself in v21 when God took the skins
of animals to make them coverings -- possibly the precursor to animals
(sheep etc) being asked to give up their lives to pay for Man's sin?
Offered up for consideration
Griz
Chuck Stamford
news:0yM4b.72046$la.17...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Did you want to add something here, Mark? If so, it didn't come across.
The Lord bless you
Chuck
Chuck Stamford
> I won't stand up for Benny Hinn, I don't know the man personally, but I
will
> stand up for Jesus...and it is in the name of Jesus that the miracles are
> taking place...
Good for you, Mark. You're looking in the right direction.
God bless
Chuck Stamford
Chuck Stamford
> Hi Chuck
>
> >Not just off topic, but temptingly off topic as well. Let me ask you a
> >question here whose answer isn't clear from your above. But first, let
me
> >clear up a term you've used, i.e., "predation". My question will be
using
> >the word in its most general sense - that action whereby any organism
> >extracts the energy necessary to carry on its metabolism from another
> >organism that it destroys in the process. Given that definition of the
> >word, do you believe that predation existed in the Garden of Eden before
> the
> >Fall? Also, was this the consensus of those Christians (ignoring the
> trolls
> >here) involved in the earlier thread?
>
> LOL! I thought I remembered us first meeting under a similar thread!
> Your definition of predation is interesting. For example, mosquitoes and
> ticks prey on us without destroying us in the process. So I would accept
> your definition of predation if we can find another word to describe what
> various insects do to us!
> Maybe a better definition would be "an unwelcomed inposition on another
for
> the sake of one's own benefit". Then we could also use the term predation
> in other arenas, such as the financial!
I'm not so in love with the definition that I proposed that I'm not willing
to entertain others, but let's agree first on what we're looking for
here...a definition of the word that is general enough to be all enclusive
within the biosphere, but not so general as to be reasonably applicable
outside the biosphere. How about - that action whereby any organism
extracts the energy necessary to carry on its metabolism from another
organism without the cooperation of that organism.? That adds a little
breadth to my original, and unless you want to wax overly allegorical, keeps
us within the realm of the biosphere. Or maybe you have a better suggestion
that accomplishes what we're looking for here.
>
> Now before we get too deep into this, it should be said that we are
entering
> into pure speculation here! And not just that, but speculation who's
> kingdom-relevance is marginal at best. Nobody's speculations on this
topic
> are likely to affect Salvation or Spiritual growth in any significant
> fashion. We need to watch that our speculations do not take precident
over
> the pure and simple gospel.
This is amazing, Craig. You couldn't possibly know this, but before I
submitted the short reply that I did, I wrote and erased a rather lengthy
one because after due consideration, I thought I was jumping too far ahead
on a subject I wasn't even sure you wanted to get into. That's not so
amazing in itself, but the fact that the draft I erased contained two
paragraphs warning against this very thing is! I wish now I'd kept it. I'm
sure the "coincidence" would have amazed you as well.
Needless to say, I agree with you wholeheartedly here. Any discussion on
this subject will of necessity go far beyond the very little explicit in the
Bible, and will rest mainly on the philosophical necessities tacit in the
implications of what it does say. That means a whole bunch of human
reasoning and a very little bit of Divine revelation...a combination that
doesn't have a very good track record.
Still, handled by two people in complete agreement that such a discussion is
fraught with both risks and rewards, and congnizant that it is not a private
conversation may be able to reap some spiritual profit from the exercise.
I'll let you tell me if, all things considered, you think it's worth it.
Given the "coincidence" alluded to, I'm not sure the Lord isn't telling us
to shut up here.
>
> Now aside from my early years in church and Bible study, I also a couple
> years studying nature in secular studies. I also spent several years
under
> the teachings of the fellow who grew up in the early 1900's as a "wild
> indian" hiding from the white men, never being placed on a reservation -
> only seeing pitiful examples of Christ via people with expansionist
agendas,
> and insisting that all you needed to know about God you could learn
through
> the temples of Creation (which I've also heard referred to as "the 1st
> edition of God's law" (Ps 19:1). So I have a rather unique background to
> enter into this speculations on this topic as I have spent many an hour
> immersing myself in nature as I now immerse myself in Scripture to
> understand God better.
So I can take it for granted that your view here would be more on the
"holistic" side than the "reductionist" side? Or am I just displaying my
personal bias about Indians?
I've got some, but in light of what I'm considering serious reservation on
the whole topic now, I suggest we both pray about it, and then you let me
know if you think we should proceed. Okay? If you feel the Lord leading
here, I can always come back and start with this post at its position in the
thread. With my newsreader (OE) and my server that's no problem at all.
God bless you and yours
Chuck
Griz
>How about [predation] - that action whereby any organism
>extracts the energy necessary to carry on its metabolism from another
>organism without the cooperation of that organism.? That adds a little
>breadth to my original, and unless you want to wax overly allegorical,
keeps
>us within the realm of the biosphere. Or maybe you have a better
suggestion
>that accomplishes what we're looking for here.
I think the important idea is that the energy is extracted at the expense -
and against the wishes - of another. I believe that would cover all the
bases and transmit the concept that I consider 'predation'.
>That's not so
>amazing in itself, but the fact that the draft I erased contained two
>paragraphs warning against this very thing is! I wish now I'd kept it.
I'm
>sure the "coincidence" would have amazed you as well.
That it amazed you, transmits the same sense of Divine co-ordination of
thoughts to me!
I think that is the basis of how we first came to each other's attention.
The topic of A & E and the Garden and the Curse was being speculated wildly
upon, and in the middle two previously un-introduced brothers who kept
trying to bring it back into focus as to what all the specuation might mean
to us here and now.
>That means a whole bunch of human
>reasoning and a very little bit of Divine revelation...a combination that
>doesn't have a very good track record.
Our reasoning abilities were given to us by God. We only seem to run into
trouble when we treat them as something that is over God. Personally, I
love godly speculations -- so long as all involved know that is what we are
expressing. I believe our imagination and intuition to be powerful tools
when in submission to Christ.
>I'll let you tell me if, all things considered, you think it's worth it.
>Given the "coincidence" alluded to, I'm not sure the Lord isn't telling us
>to shut up here.
I think it depends upon what we intend to do with such speculations
concerning the pre-fall ecosystem. Such a coincidence can mean to stop --
but it can also show that both parties are "in synch" on a particular topic
as well.
I'd be interested to hear what you have to think on my speculations of the
"fruit-only diet", and the 1st and 2nd acts of predation!
>So I can take it for granted that your view here would be more on the
>"holistic" side than the "reductionist" side? Or am I just displaying my
>personal bias about Indians?
I think the idea that all parts tie together to make the whole is a good
Spirital approach -- as in "All things work together for good .. .. .."!
But I seem to have a talent for shifting gears without stripping a cog! (I
also have been told I have an annoying tendency to go reductionist in the
face of holism and vice versa! "A good warrior should know how to dance!")
But for the sake of bringing balance and not just for the sake of playing
'devil's advocate'.
>I've got some, but in light of what I'm considering serious reservation on
>the whole topic now, I suggest we both pray about it, and then you let me
>know if you think we should proceed. Okay? If you feel the Lord leading
>here, I can always come back and start with this post at its position in
the
>thread. With my newsreader (OE) and my server that's no problem at all.
>>
>God bless you and yours
>
>Chuck
Or we could take it private.
But truthfully, there is a lot on the old NG "plate" right now. It might be
a good thing to reconsider adding another just now.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Chuck Stamford
I honestly don't recall this discussion, but then I seem to be not recalling
more things as time goes by! :-) I do remember getting into a similar
discussion with someone calling themselves "William" on another newsgroup
(if I "recall" correctly - alt.christnet.theology), but it was more of an
argument with him taking the side that the story of the corruption of
creation at the Fall of mankind finds no support in the physical sciences,
and is illogical when analyzed. He seemed to be after someone identifying
or describing some kind of physical force or energy that became active to
cause creation to change how it operated the other side of the Fall. A
whole different ball of wax to what is being contemplated here I would hope.
>
> >That means a whole bunch of human
> >reasoning and a very little bit of Divine revelation...a combination that
> >doesn't have a very good track record.
>
> Our reasoning abilities were given to us by God. We only seem to run into
> trouble when we treat them as something that is over God. Personally, I
> love godly speculations -- so long as all involved know that is what we
are
> expressing. I believe our imagination and intuition to be powerful tools
> when in submission to Christ.
Me too, but what happens when our "powerful tool" of imagination starts
imagining it is submitted to Christ in the middle of some complex
analysis...and the fact of the matter is that it isn't? That's the risk
I've alluded to and my concern. I don't believe it to be so great a risk
that such speculations should be categorically avoided, but the risk would
ALWAYS be there throughout the exercise.
>
> >I'll let you tell me if, all things considered, you think it's worth it.
> >Given the "coincidence" alluded to, I'm not sure the Lord isn't telling
us
> >to shut up here.
>
> I think it depends upon what we intend to do with such speculations
> concerning the pre-fall ecosystem. Such a coincidence can mean to stop --
> but it can also show that both parties are "in synch" on a particular
topic
> as well.
My concern is not so much that anything either of us had to say has the
potential for damage to us (long or short term), but we probably wouldn't be
the only two reading what was written...and we'd never know for sure who
else there was or what these speculations might engender in them.
> I'd be interested to hear what you have to think on my speculations of the
> "fruit-only diet", and the 1st and 2nd acts of predation!
I don't think the "fruit only diet" IS a speculation. I think it's obvious
from the text. As for #'s 1 & 2 acts of predation, I think we need to be
guided here more by the biblical definition of "death" than a modern
biological definition of "predation". This may lead away from what we were
thinking of analyzing (I'm not sure here), but using that Guide leaves #1 as
an act where no blood is shed, and #2 as an act where it is.
Some random thoughts here:
"Adam" is the translation of a Hebrew word that has several meanings,
representative are: "first man", "mankind", "red", and "earth" (adamah).
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to
make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes
atonement for one's life. Lev 17:11 (NIV)
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- for before
the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account
when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to
the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as
did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:12-14 (NIV)
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and
clothed them. Gen 3:21 (KJV) Obvious shedding of blood here.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou
mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die. Gen 2:16-17 (KJV)
Now here's the task: How do we hook all this together so that God is not
the first predator, yet preserve the apparent typology of Christ's future
ministry of reconciliation in God providing Adam and Eve "skins" as the
Divine preference over their choice of fig leaves? Without the shedding of
blood here the typology is completely destroyed.
>
> >So I can take it for granted that your view here would be more on the
> >"holistic" side than the "reductionist" side? Or am I just displaying my
> >personal bias about Indians?
>
> I think the idea that all parts tie together to make the whole is a good
> Spirital approach -- as in "All things work together for good .. .. .."!
> But I seem to have a talent for shifting gears without stripping a cog!
(I
> also have been told I have an annoying tendency to go reductionist in the
> face of holism and vice versa! "A good warrior should know how to
dance!")
> But for the sake of bringing balance and not just for the sake of playing
> 'devil's advocate'.
I also see things from both approaches, but I'm generally guided more by the
nature of what I'm trying to analyze than anything else. Some
things/concepts are better examined by tearing them down into simpler
"sub-units", while others would be basically destroyed if this was done.
>
> >I've got some, but in light of what I'm considering serious reservation
on
> >the whole topic now, I suggest we both pray about it, and then you let me
> >know if you think we should proceed. Okay? If you feel the Lord leading
> >here, I can always come back and start with this post at its position in
> the
> >thread. With my newsreader (OE) and my server that's no problem at all.
> >>
> >God bless you and yours
> >
> >Chuck
>
> Or we could take it private.
> But truthfully, there is a lot on the old NG "plate" right now. It might
be
> a good thing to reconsider adding another just now.
The biggest problem with a discussion like this will be keeping it within
some kind of parameters. We're skirting the edges of material that is so
foundational to the entire revelation of God that confining it may be near
impossible. Clearly NOT the type of discussion if you're already busy.
You have my e-mail address if you've not misplaced it. I don't have yours
anymore since I bought a new computer. If you want to have this discussion
outside the arena of a public newsgroup, and we can both be satisfied with
response times that fit comfortably within our respective schedules, I'd be
happy to enter into an in depth discussion with you on this subject. I'm
sure we could both profit from it as we keep it submitted to God's written
word and the leading of His Spirit.
God bless
Chuck
Griz
>> The topic of A & E and the Garden and the Curse was being speculated
>>wildly
>> upon, and in the middle two previously un-introduced brothers who kept
>> trying to bring it back into focus as to what all the specuation might
>>mean
>> to us here and now.
>I honestly don't recall this discussion, but then I seem to be not
recalling
>more things as time goes by! :-) I do remember getting into a similar
>discussion with someone calling themselves "William" on another newsgroup
>(if I "recall" correctly - alt.christnet.theology), but it was more of an
>argument with him taking the side that the story of the corruption of
>creation at the Fall of mankind finds no support in the physical sciences,
>and is illogical when analyzed. He seemed to be after someone identifying
>or describing some kind of physical force or energy that became active to
>cause creation to change how it operated the other side of the Fall. A
>whole different ball of wax to what is being contemplated here I would
hope.
Well, I don't claim to have a stellar memory as well. I tend to remember
spirits behind what a person says more than what exactly was said. I
thought it was in a thread like this that the Spirit first commended your
witness to me as 'of Him'.
It is fine to speculate on such unknowns as exactly what occurred before the
fall, and the metaphysics of the flow of energy pre- and post-fall. But
that cannot be done with anyone other than a child of God without it
resulting in an impasse as the god of intellect and logic tries to lock
horns with Yahweh God.
>Me too, but what happens when our "powerful tool" of imagination starts
>imagining it is submitted to Christ in the middle of some complex
>analysis...and the fact of the matter is that it isn't? That's the risk
>I've alluded to and my concern. I don't believe it to be so great a risk
>that such speculations should be categorically avoided, but the risk would
>ALWAYS be there throughout the exercise.
Yes. I believe that if the direction and the result of the speculation is
to lift up God, then there is hope for a godly outcome from the exercise.
But as you've said so well, our "powerful tool" of intellect loves to turn
things towards lifting up the self -- even to the point of deluding the
wielder into believing submission is to Christ when with every passing
minute their hat grows tighter and tighter.
So perhaps this is not the time and place for such speculations beyond where
we have already gone?
>My concern is not so much that anything either of us had to say has the
>potential for damage to us (long or short term), but we probably wouldn't
be
>the only two reading what was written...and we'd never know for sure who
>else there was or what these speculations might engender in them
Agreed.
And it is godly to think of others before the self. Good call Chuck!
>I don't think the "fruit only diet" IS a speculation. I think it's obvious
>from the text. As for #'s 1 & 2 acts of predation, I think we need to be
>guided here more by the biblical definition of "death" than a modern
>biological definition of "predation". This may lead away from what we were
>thinking of analyzing (I'm not sure here), but using that Guide leaves #1
as
>an act where no blood is shed, and #2 as an act where it is.
Harkening from my Native Studies, a death is a death - whether animal or
vegetable. I realize this stance cannot be supported from Scriptures -- and
that there is great onus put upon the shedding of blood.
But I erred in not making clear earlier that my expressed view in this case
drew upon lessons learned from my past journeys. (It's a view that I've
found very beneficial in helping me learn to respect all aspects of
Creation -- as in, how can we say we respect God when we treat the entirety
of His Creation with such disregard)
>Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through
>sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- for before
>the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account
>when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to
>the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,
>as
>did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. Romans 5:12-14 (NIV)
Well said.
>Now here's the task: How do we hook all this together so that God is not
>the first predator, yet preserve the apparent typology of Christ's future
>ministry of reconciliation in God providing Adam and Eve "skins" as the
>Divine preference over their choice of fig leaves? Without the shedding of
>blood here the typology is completely destroyed
I did not weigh my words carefully enough if they came across as calling God
a predator -- for He is not. He took that which was His when he created the
garments of skins for the man and the woman. But I can easily see Him
requiring them to watch so they could begin to see that their sin could not
be "cleanly" covered up but required the shedding of blood.
I believe this preserves the concept of us "putting on" the righteousness of
Christ as a garment. A raiment that comes to us as in the original model -
at great cost.
>I also see things from both approaches, but I'm generally guided more by
the
>nature of what I'm trying to analyze than anything else. Some
>things/concepts are better examined by tearing them down into simpler
>"sub-units", while others would be basically destroyed if this was done.
I think I tend more towards the holistic then -- because very few things
outside the laboratory can be isolated and distilled into their component
elements. In the natural world, everything has a bearing upon everything
else!
>The biggest problem with a discussion like this will be keeping it within
>some kind of parameters. We're skirting the edges of material that is so
>foundational to the entire revelation of God that confining it may be near
>impossible. Clearly NOT the type of discussion if you're already busy.
Right now I could not do such a discussion justice.
Maybe in the dead of winter on a day when a blizzard has shut everything
down!?
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Chuck Stamford
>
> >The biggest problem with a discussion like this will be keeping it within
> >some kind of parameters. We're skirting the edges of material that is so
> >foundational to the entire revelation of God that confining it may be
near
> >impossible. Clearly NOT the type of discussion if you're already busy.
>
> Right now I could not do such a discussion justice.
> Maybe in the dead of winter on a day when a blizzard has shut everything
> down!?
Remind my then...you know, it's that memory thing. By the dead of winter
it's only going to get worse! :=)
The Lord continue to bless you, Craig
Chuck
>
> Yours in Christ,
>
> Griz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>