Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
Deacon
John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in
Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears
fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean
because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in
you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 If anyone
does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If
you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
desire, and it shall be done for you.8 By this My Father is glorified,
that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
NKJV
I must first caution that we must keep the entirety of this passage
involved in the study. To take a verse out of context here detracts
from the message and the study. So in answering this question try to
keep the entire passage in mind.
Now the question. If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
happens to you?
Keep in mind also that these verses are the subject of much controversy,
so let's keep focused on Christ who is the subject of this passage.
That said, your answers please.
May the Lord grant us wisdom as we meditate on His Word,
Deacon
Chayil
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F3D1F13...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> First the Scripture:
> John 15:1-8
> "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in
> Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears
> fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean
> because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in
> you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
> vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
>
> 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
> him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 If anyone
> does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
> they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If
> you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
> desire, and it shall be done for you.8 By this My Father is glorified,
> that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
> NKJV
>
> I must first caution that we must keep the entirety of this passage
> involved in the study. To take a verse out of context here detracts
> from the message and the study. So in answering this question try to
> keep the entire passage in mind.
>
> Now the question. If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
> happens to you?
Well, first I guess we should determine if Jesus is in fact speaking about
believers here. I think that He is due to the fact that Jesus starts out
saying that he is referring to those branches that are "in Him" (verse 2).
The only ones that are "in Christ" to my knowledge are those who are saved.
Another reasn why I think these branches are believers is because Jesus
says, "You are already clean." To me this represents forgiveness of sin.
Now, after the cleansing, the instruction is to abide.
There seem to be 2 descriptions of what happens to those branches in Christ
that don't produce fruit (or don't abide). 1) They are taken away from the
vine (Christ) - verse 2. and 2) They are cast out, withered, gathered,
thrown in the fire, and burned. To me, this means that the unfruitful
branches are no longer a part of the Body of Christ.
I think it may be good for us to also examine what it means to abide. To
me, this is not so much about whether believers stumble or commit sin, but
whether their heart departs from the Lord. This also seems consistent with
Scripture's admonition to believers to abide in the faith (i.e. those who
endure to the end shall be saved). It shows that we can be engrafted into
the vine (salvation) but choose not to remain in the vine as determined by
our continued faith in and faithfulness to Him. This seems similar to
Romans 11:17-22 which says,
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive
tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and
fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou
boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The
branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of
unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed
lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of
God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou
continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
Just my initial thoughts.
Chayil
This should be a good study. Thank you for raising it Deacon!
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F3D1F13...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> First the Scripture:
> John 15:1-8
> "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in
> Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears
> fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean
> because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in
> you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
> vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
>
> 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
> him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 If anyone
> does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
> they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If
> you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
> desire, and it shall be done for you.8 By this My Father is glorified,
> that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
> NKJV
>
> I must first caution that we must keep the entirety of this passage
> involved in the study. To take a verse out of context here detracts
> from the message and the study. So in answering this question try to
> keep the entire passage in mind.
>
> Now the question. If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
> happens to you?
Well, first I guess we should determine if Jesus is in fact speaking about
Just my initial thoughts.
The Enigma
Dear Deacon,
I don't have much time to type but I will offer this for your consideration:
1 Cor 3:8-15:
"The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be
rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are
God's field, God's building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a
foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each
one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other
than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this
foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work
will be shown for what it is, because the Day [of Judgement] will bring it to
light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of
each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as
one escaping through flames."
Chayil
"The Enigma" <enigma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8e3707d3.03081...@posting.google.com...
Hi Engima,
Although you haven't added your thoughts on this verse, I thought I would
begin by adding mine. This Scripture definitely seems consistent with the
message given in John 15:1-8 as it also confirms that individuals who do not
abide in the faith are cut off from the Body of Christ.
I Corinthians Chapter 3 addresses aspects of ministry for Christ. Paul
starts the Chapter by admonishing the people of Corinth for creating
divisions amongst themselves about who was the better minister or who had
the better ministry. He advises the people that he and the other ministers
are all fellow laborers who are tending to the harvest of souls together,
but that God alone is responsible for the increase of His husbandry.
Paul then compares the harvest of souls to a building. This is consistent
with Peter referring to Believers as living stones that build up the
spiritual house of God. Continuing in the same vein as the harvest analogy,
Paul expresses how He has laid a foundation of Christ for the Church, but
how other ministers will continue to add to the church (or build upon this
foundation of Christ). He then cautions these fellow builders (ministers)
to take care how they build on to this structure and to make sure that what
they add to the building (harvest of souls) is consistent with the
foundation (Christ).
Paul then switches from speaking about the process of building upon the
foundation (reaping the harvest of believers) to looking at the types of
materials being used to build the structure (the types of believers being
added to the church). He says that these may consist of gold, silver,
precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble. Remember now, Paul is speaking of
building a spiritual house of God where we (individual believers) are God's
building. The harvest of souls are now represented in the building
materials (lively stones) used to construct God's building.
Paul says that everyman's work (those souls he has won for Christ) will be
tried by fire. The ministers whose works (saved souls) abide in salvation
will receive a reward. But those ministers whose works perish in the fire
(souls that have not abided in salvation) will suffer lost. The individual
ministers themselves however will not lose their salvation just because
their converts may not have abided, but their reward will be less. This is
also consistent with I Corinthians 9:1 where Paul refers to the Church at
Corinth as His "work" in the Lord.
Paul was basically trying to tell the Corinthians not to worry about whose
ministry they were saved under because God alone is responsible for the
increase to the Church. He was also telling them not to boast amongst
themselves regarding who was the greater minister, because God Himself would
judge the effectiveness of each ministry and would reward each minister
accordingly.
God Bless
Vera Six
thank you for the question.
Yes, I see, it is a really good one.
Well - let me see if I can think of an answer to start with ...
[Maybe one should clear what is meant by the "fruit", too.]
> If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
> happens to you?
I would say it means death if you do not live with Jesus -
as he is the vine on who you should absolutely rely
to bear fruit. This means to have a very close relationship
to Jesus and never to do anything that is not driven by him.
So all we do should come from him and should be because
of him. [If it does not come from him - where else should
it come from? I'll leave that answer out here as it would
lead off the track a bit.] If not, the fruit will be rotten and cut off,
however.
If my intentions and decisions, my way of life is motivated
by Jesus, I will bear fruit, if not, God will judge about me from
the fruit. The Father will cut me off from Jesus completely - and
this is death as well as Jesus is life.
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life;
no one comes to the Father but by Me.
Joh 14:6
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
In the vine,
Vera
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F3D1F13...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
pablo
hi enigma -- i am jumping in just to say hi. i have been praying and
praying for your family and the new baby -- and maybe you gave a
report and i missed it. but, i would love to know how things went and
are going so far. maybe another thread as not to mess deacon's up
(like i am doing).
i want to continue to pray for your new addition and the family and
yourself as well (aka all of you). it's something that i sense a
prompting to do, and something i do gladly and willingly too. plus,
as i look at my little one and pray for her -- yours gets a prayer
too. it's an easy way for me to remember.
mostly, i am a simple pray-er asking simply for God's blessings --
blessing that you may bless God, blessings that you may bless others
and blessings that you may be blessed.
peac3e.
pablo
Vera Six
:-)
"pablo" <ba...@sushi.co.jp> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:2d487387.03081...@posting.google.com...
sensible2me
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F3D1F13...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> John 15:1-8
> "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in
> Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears
> fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean
> because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in
> you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
> vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
>
> 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
> him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 If anyone
> does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
> they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If
> you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
> desire, and it shall be done for you.8 By this My Father is glorified,
> that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
> NKJV
>
> I must first caution that we must keep the entirety of this passage
> involved in the study. To take a verse out of context here detracts
> from the message and the study. So in answering this question try to
> keep the entire passage in mind.
>
> Now the question. If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
> happens to you?
>
Consider what is di*VINE.
Plant all the fruits of the spirit and grow into them. They are are
extended from Him to us and becoming them/those "One by one" these fruits
in/of him does require an action of faith to believe and become the many
spirits or fruits of God.
If not what happens to us? We remain in the dark, death, blind, ignorant,
stumbling, drunk and cease to exist in LIFE.
WE have no excuses for being ugly or warranting disgusting behaviours when
Christ is here to lead us in His WAY*S that we become his Disciples
disciplined in mind, heart and body.
It is God's will that everyone become every fruit of God even if we have to
learn the hard way. (Trial by fire = withered branch)
Thats my view. Thanks and God Bless
Steve Sebastian
on this scripture. The meditation is written by Andrew Murray and is
available on the net in pdf form.
Highly reccomend it.
Blessings in Christ,
Steve
Deacon
<snip>
> Dear Deacon,
> I don't have much time to type but I will offer this for your consideration:
>
> 1 Cor 3:8-15:
> "The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be
> rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are
> God's field, God's building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a
> foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each
> one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other
> than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this
> foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work
> will be shown for what it is, because the Day [of Judgement] will bring it to
> light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of
> each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
> If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as
> one escaping through flames."
Good verses to add. When you have time elaborate please on the last
verse quoted. It is a key verse in studying the ones I began the study on.
Thanks.
May the Lord bless you and keep you always,
Deacon
Deacon
So I take this to mean you can lose your salvation?
>
> I think it may be good for us to also examine what it means to abide. To
> me, this is not so much about whether believers stumble or commit sin, but
> whether their heart departs from the Lord. This also seems consistent with
> Scripture's admonition to believers to abide in the faith (i.e. those who
> endure to the end shall be saved). It shows that we can be engrafted into
> the vine (salvation) but choose not to remain in the vine as determined by
> our continued faith in and faithfulness to Him. This seems similar to
> Romans 11:17-22 which says,
>
> "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive
> tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and
> fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou
> boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The
> branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of
> unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
> highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed
> lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of
> God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou
> continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
>
Yes, this is a good passage to look at. Continue your thought please, I
can see this leading to a discussion on salvation. That is perfectly
alright with me in this particular study if need be.
I'm interested to see what else you say, so please continue.
Oh, don't forget that line I told you to remind me to quote if we
discussed salvation. ;-)
God Bless,
Deacon
Deacon
> Hi Deacon,
>
> thank you for the question.
>
> Yes, I see, it is a really good one.
>
> Well - let me see if I can think of an answer to start with ...
>
> [Maybe one should clear what is meant by the "fruit", too.]
>
>
From your answer I think you know what fruit is. ;-)
If anyone else wonders, fruit is born when you lead someone to Christ
and they accept Him as Lord and Savior at His drawing them to Himself.
>>If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
>>happens to you?
>
>
> I would say it means death if you do not live with Jesus -
> as he is the vine on who you should absolutely rely
> to bear fruit. This means to have a very close relationship
> to Jesus and never to do anything that is not driven by him.
> So all we do should come from him and should be because
> of him. [If it does not come from him - where else should
> it come from? I'll leave that answer out here as it would
> lead off the track a bit.] If not, the fruit will be rotten and cut off,
> however.
>
> If my intentions and decisions, my way of life is motivated
> by Jesus, I will bear fruit, if not, God will judge about me from
> the fruit. The Father will cut me off from Jesus completely - and
> this is death as well as Jesus is life.
>
Death in what way is the key. So if you could elaborate a little please?
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>
> Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life;
> no one comes to the Father but by Me.
> Joh 14:6
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>
>
> In the vine,
>
> Vera
>
All green and leafy with lots of fruit,
Deacon
Deacon
That's good I like it.
> Plant all the fruits of the spirit and grow into them. They are are
> extended from Him to us and becoming them/those "One by one" these fruits
> in/of him does require an action of faith to believe and become the many
> spirits or fruits of God.
> If not what happens to us? We remain in the dark, death, blind, ignorant,
> stumbling, drunk and cease to exist in LIFE.
Ok, but what if we are indeed saved?
> WE have no excuses for being ugly or warranting disgusting behaviours when
> Christ is here to lead us in His WAY*S that we become his Disciples
> disciplined in mind, heart and body.
We certainly don't. I agree.
> It is God's will that everyone become every fruit of God even if we have to
> learn the hard way. (Trial by fire = withered branch)
More. Give me more. Very Good so far, so give me more.
> Thats my view. Thanks and God Bless
>
>
Good points, thank you also.
May the Lord bless you in all that you do,
Deacon
Vera Six
I can try to. I mean death in a spiritual way. I mean death after the
physical death on earth. We all have to die, but for me it means just
to walk over to go on living forever in a different sphere together with
God.
Mankind fell apart from God by not obeying his will, which meant
to live in sin. Sin means separation from God. [It is not the sin itself,
but the separation from God that makes it really bad.] God is life,
separation from God is death - meaning being far away from God.
This is the situation we are in on earth. We live apart from God
due to sin, and in general we had no chance to get out of this
jam, if God would not have had his wonderful idea of sending
Jesus. Jesus is the bridge we can walk over if we want to live
with God again. We cannot free ourselves from our sins. We
have to accept Jesus who paid for our sin and thus made it possible
that God does not regard our sins any more. Jesus has paid for them
already. But we have to stick to him, otherwise we cannot refer to
him for having paid for our debts. We are not released of it any
longer.
It is a question of a second death. From this life on earth we
know a bit what death means, how terrible it is. We were all once
sentenced to this death, but we got a second chance through
Jesus. When he died on the cross it was not just the death
on earth, but also the complete separation from the Father, from
life. [So Jesus overcome this second death, too. But that is my
personal idea only, I am not sure.] That is why he cried
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
... Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (which being
translated is, My God, My God, why did You forsake
Me?)
Mar 15:34
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
We have to stay in the vine, in Christ, if we want to be
spiritually alive. [This life needs a birth, by the way.] If we
are in Christ, we will bear fruit and will not have to be faced
with the second - and eternal - death.
> >><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> >
> > Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life;
> > no one comes to the Father but by Me.
> > Joh 14:6
> >
> >><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> >
> >
> > In the vine,
> >
> > Vera
> >
>
> All green and leafy with lots of fruit,
> Deacon
I wished there were more and more and more...
So I have to get closer and closer to Jesus,
getting all there is from him.
I wish you lots of fruit, and more and more,
may God be your gardener and bless you,
Vera
sensible2me
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
> sensible2me:
Souls have always been saved by grace. It's a graceful understanding ( A
fruit of the spirit)
It is acknowledging it or accepting it "gracefully" and then gracefully
applying the fruits of the Holy Spirit in our every walk of life.
"Forgiveness" (fruit )"kindness" (fruit ) meekness (fruit ) and becoming one
with Christ. (Branch of the tree of LIFE)
Live and Learn to Live and learn it well till it becomes you and you become
the very LIFE God planned.
> > WE have no excuses for being ugly or warranting disgusting behaviours
when
> > Christ is here to lead us in His WAY*S that we become his Disciples
> > disciplined in mind, heart and body.
>
> We certainly don't. I agree.
>
> > It is God's will that everyone become every fruit of God even if we have
to
> > learn the hard way. (Trial by fire = withered branch)
>
> More. Give me more. Very Good so far, so give me more.
>
sensible2me:
New shoots always spring forth.
Chayil
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F3E41BB...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> > There seem to be 2 descriptions of what happens to those branches in
Christ
> > that don't produce fruit (or don't abide). 1) They are taken away from
the
> > vine (Christ) - verse 2. and 2) They are cast out, withered, gathered,
> > thrown in the fire, and burned. To me, this means that the unfruitful
> > branches are no longer a part of the Body of Christ.
>
> So I take this to mean you can lose your salvation?
I wouldn't say that. I was just trying to look at what the verses say.
They seem to show that those who are appended to Jesus (engrafted to the
vine) can also be removed from this position. We may be speaking of the
same thing, but the reason I hesitate to agree with your statement is that
the Scripture does not say that the branch lost its connection to the vine.
It says that the branch is cut off. Losing salvation sounds to me like
"Oops, I misplaced my keys." In these Scriptures this "taking away" or
"casting out" seems to be deliberate action.
If you are appended to Christ's Body and then taken away, cast out, or cut
off, from that Body, then it seems obvious that this is describing a
severing of one's connection to the Body. Is that what you mean by "lose
your salvation?"
> > "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive
> > tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root
and
> > fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou
> > boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then,
The
> > branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of
> > unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not
> > highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take
heed
> > lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity
of
> > God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou
> > continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."
> >
>
> Yes, this is a good passage to look at. Continue your thought please, I
> can see this leading to a discussion on salvation. That is perfectly
> alright with me in this particular study if need be.
Okay. I am not sure what part you wanted me to elaborate on, but I'll share
with you my thoughts on the above Scripture. Paul is speaking about what
position the nation of Israel has with God in light of the fact that
salvation has been offered to the Gentiles. He compares Jesus to the root
of the olive tree and the Jews and Gentiles to the various branches. He
says that some of the original branches (Jews) were broken off because of
their unbelief. He goes on to say that we (Gentiles) were grafted in among
the original branches of the tree because of faith. (I also think it could
be interesting to discuss the difference between the two olive trees as it
pertains to the new creations we become in Christ, but I am not sure that
this is the path you want me to go down. Maybe in another study!)
Anyway, Paul goes on to say that we should not be boastful about the fact
that some of the original branches (Jews) were broken off in order that we
may be engrafted in. One reason we shouldn't boast is because our being
attached to the vine is not of our own doing, but we are dependant upon the
root (Jesus). In the event that we should become proud about the fact that
we are engrafted into the tree, we should remember the actions that God took
against some of the original branches. For He has proven that He can and
will spare not branches by breaking them off from the tree. In looking at
His actions, we can see demonstrated both the goodness and the severity of
God. The severity is witnessed by His cutting off those branches (Jews)
which fell due to unbelief. God's goodness is seen in that He engrafted us
into His body (tree). In fact, we will continue to see His goodness, if we
continue in His goodness. If we do not continue in His goodness, then we
will experience the severity of God that was demonstrated to some of the
original branches in that we too will be cut off.
> I'm interested to see what else you say, so please continue.
>
> Oh, don't forget that line I told you to remind me to quote if we
> discussed salvation. ;-)
Bro. Deacon, I am not the least worried! {;-) Hopefully, what I said
before will edify others when you quote it again. If not, then it serves as
an opportunity for me to grow as others correct any parts of my statement
that is not true. Either way, only good can come of it!
I love you guys and I appreciate the ooportunity to learn and share with
you!
>
>
> God Bless,
> Deacon
>
Deacon
Thanks steve. I already have it in written form. You're correct it is
good.
Blessings and peace be with you,
Deacon
pablo
> First the Scripture:
> John 15:1-8
> "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
Jesus is the true vine of the Father
(interesting note #1 "true" can mean -- opposite to what is imperfect
defective, frail, uncertain)
2 Every branch in
> Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
every person who does not bear fruit is taken away
(interesting note #2 "branch" means -- tender shoot or tender,
flexible, fragile branch and comes from the verb, "to break.")
and every branch that bears
> fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
the branches that bear fruit are pruned by the Father, so they may
keep on bearing fruit, more and more.
3 You are already clean
> because of the word which I have spoken to you.
earlier Jesus has spoken to peter about being clean:
john 13
8 Peter said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered
him, " If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me."
9 Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but
also my hands and my head."
10 Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his
feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He
said, "Not all of you are clean."
Ephesians 5
26 so that He (Jesus) might sanctify her (the Church), having
cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
John 17
17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
here it seems the metaphor is that being clean is analogous to being
pruned. but, the mention of how this is done -- through the word --
seems to point to the setting apart of the disciples unto God, in
bearing much fruit.
the cleansing comes in the truth (not in falsehood) and in the word
(the divine message of God not speculation).
(interestin note #3. the word for prune means, "to purge or cleanse").
4 Abide in Me, and I in
> you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
> vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
so, is the branch in Me in verse 1 that does not bear fruit one that
could be described as abiding in Jesus? i do not think so.
it might speak of the connection all have to the true vine as from
john 1:3. as opposed to the spiritual and living connection of the
believer.
the 1:3 connection would not bear fruit. the spiritual and living
connection would bear fruit.
(interestin note #4 abide in the greek is imperitive meaning an
absolute command).
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
> him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
bearing fruit is a sure sign that someone is alive and connected to
Christ. a vine that is not connected certainly cannot bear fruit --
and will do nothing but wither and die.
6 If anyone
> does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
> they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
as i said above.
7 If
> you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
> desire, and it shall be done for you.
this is repeated:
John 16
23 "In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly,
truly, I say to you, if ***you ask the Father*** for anything in My
name, He will give it to you.
and stands in contrast to the time prior to the Holy Spirit.
John 14
13 "Whatever you ask in My name, ***that will I do***, so that the
Father may be glorified in the Son.
8 By this My Father is glorified,
> that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
disciples bear much fruit, so the believer can expect to be cleansed
by the word and pruned by the Father in their experience of life.
>
> Now the question. If you are a believer and do not bear fruit what
> happens to you?
i cannot contradict this verse:
John 10
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can
snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is
greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I
and the Father are one."
or this verse:
John 6
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to
me I will never drive away. 39And this is the will of him who sent me,
that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up
at the last day.
so, if we are a believer and we fail to bear fruit -- we are not
connected to Christ. it would seem to be a pretty good indication
that we are not connected to Christ -- and not believers.
does this mean that we might have a season of not bearing fruit and
thus be cast out?
i do not think so.
which brings me to the notion of the breaking of breakable branches:
///////
it seems the breaking of the branches is true for both those who do
not bear fruit and those who do bear fruit. only, the branches that
bear fruit are broken (pruned) in order to bear more and more fruit.
and the branches which are not bearing fruit are broken off to be cast
away, to wither and to be burned.
the question posed here might be: are you a productive disciple or
are you worthless? do not make the mistake of thinking that being
productive will come from yourself, you are a branch. being
productive, being alive, comes from the vine -- not the branch.
it is not an option presented -- but a command -- "abide in me" --
which is given to the disciples -- and the whole analogy might hinge
more strongly on -- not what happens to a believer who does not bear
fruit - but -- a stearn commandment -- you are expected to bear fruit
-- and to do so is accomplished by abiding in me and abiding in my
love and by loving one another.
///////
there is much to chew on here -- but i am not so sure we can leave
out:
john 15
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my
love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as
I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have
told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be
complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his
friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no
longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's
business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I
learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose
me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that
will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
17This is my command: Love each other.
well, that's my ramble around -- i will have to think some on this.
peac3e.
pablo
Deacon
Believers have a choice in all things. Believers don't have to follow
after God and thus bear fruit. That is what I'm getting at, what about
believers who don't bear fruit?
>
>>>WE have no excuses for being ugly or warranting disgusting behaviours
>>
> when
>
>>>Christ is here to lead us in His WAY*S that we become his Disciples
>>>disciplined in mind, heart and body.
>>
>>We certainly don't. I agree.
>>
>>
>>>It is God's will that everyone become every fruit of God even if we have
>>
> to
>
>>>learn the hard way. (Trial by fire = withered branch)
>>
>>More. Give me more. Very Good so far, so give me more.
>>
>
>
> sensible2me:
> New shoots always spring forth.
>
Direct and to the point. Works for me. :-)
>
Shalom,
Deacon
Deacon
<snip for reply only>
>
> well, that's my ramble around -- i will have to think some on this.
>
> peac3e.
> pablo
Nice ramble. Take your time I value your input. Of particular interest
is the part about the believer not bearing fruit. I do believe that
this is addressed in the passage and that you can indeed be a believer
and choose not to abide in Christ. It is the consequences that I will
leave for debate for a time.
Thanks pablo.
May the Lord rest His Mighty Hand upon you always,
Deacon
Deacon
> Hi Deacon,
>
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
> news:3F3E41BB...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
>>>There seem to be 2 descriptions of what happens to those branches in
>>
> Christ
>
>>>that don't produce fruit (or don't abide). 1) They are taken away from
>>
> the
>
>>>vine (Christ) - verse 2. and 2) They are cast out, withered, gathered,
>>>thrown in the fire, and burned. To me, this means that the unfruitful
>>>branches are no longer a part of the Body of Christ.
>>
>>So I take this to mean you can lose your salvation?
>
>
> I wouldn't say that. I was just trying to look at what the verses say.
> They seem to show that those who are appended to Jesus (engrafted to the
> vine) can also be removed from this position. We may be speaking of the
> same thing, but the reason I hesitate to agree with your statement is that
> the Scripture does not say that the branch lost its connection to the vine.
> It says that the branch is cut off. Losing salvation sounds to me like
> "Oops, I misplaced my keys." In these Scriptures this "taking away" or
> "casting out" seems to be deliberate action.
>
> If you are appended to Christ's Body and then taken away, cast out, or cut
> off, from that Body, then it seems obvious that this is describing a
> severing of one's connection to the Body. Is that what you mean by "lose
> your salvation?"
>
Close, I think. What I mean in as few words as I can possibly use would
be, moving from Grace to Condemnation. It is the point of view of many
that being cast out and burned up means suffering the fires of Hell.
I'm not going to say what I think just yet, but this is what I'm driving
at. I wasn't sure of your take on the verses you mentioned, but I have
a better idea and if you want to add further please do.
That would be interesting, but I think another thread/study would be
best. Oh, your elaboration is just what the Deacon ordered. Thanks.
> Anyway, Paul goes on to say that we should not be boastful about the fact
> that some of the original branches (Jews) were broken off in order that we
> may be engrafted in. One reason we shouldn't boast is because our being
> attached to the vine is not of our own doing, but we are dependant upon the
> root (Jesus). In the event that we should become proud about the fact that
> we are engrafted into the tree, we should remember the actions that God took
> against some of the original branches. For He has proven that He can and
> will spare not branches by breaking them off from the tree. In looking at
> His actions, we can see demonstrated both the goodness and the severity of
> God. The severity is witnessed by His cutting off those branches (Jews)
> which fell due to unbelief. God's goodness is seen in that He engrafted us
> into His body (tree). In fact, we will continue to see His goodness, if we
> continue in His goodness. If we do not continue in His goodness, then we
> will experience the severity of God that was demonstrated to some of the
> original branches in that we too will be cut off.
>
I see where you're coming from. I need to think about what you're
saying and if a particular point jumps out at me I'll respond again.
>
>>I'm interested to see what else you say, so please continue.
>>
>>Oh, don't forget that line I told you to remind me to quote if we
>>discussed salvation. ;-)
>
>
> Bro. Deacon, I am not the least worried! {;-) Hopefully, what I said
> before will edify others when you quote it again. If not, then it serves as
> an opportunity for me to grow as others correct any parts of my statement
> that is not true. Either way, only good can come of it!
>
> I love you guys and I appreciate the ooportunity to learn and share with
> you!
>
Mine is but to serve and also to grow. You aid in that process so I
also thank you and offer my love as your Brother in Christ.
Shalom,
Deacon
Deacon
Now I understand what you're saying, but still I ask yet again. The
believer that wanders and doesn't come back. What of them? They are
not "truly" in the vine as they are caught up in whatever sin has
captured them, but are they lost because of their situation? Do they
suffer condemnation?
>
>
>>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>>>
>>> Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life;
>>> no one comes to the Father but by Me.
>>> Joh 14:6
>>>
>>>
>>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>>>
>>>
>>>In the vine,
>>>
>>>Vera
>>>
>>
>>All green and leafy with lots of fruit,
>>Deacon
>
>
> I wished there were more and more and more...
> So I have to get closer and closer to Jesus,
> getting all there is from him.
>
> I wish you lots of fruit, and more and more,
> may God be your gardener and bless you,
>
> Vera
>
>
He is and He does.
May the Lord find you useful,
Deacon
Diana
Dear Deacon,
I myself would love to know the answer to that same question.
Di
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F4061...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3F3E4336...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Now I understand what you're saying, but still I ask yet again. The
> believer that wanders and doesn't come back. What of them? They
are
> not "truly" in the vine as they are caught up in whatever sin has
> captured them, but are they lost because of their situation? Do they
> suffer condemnation?
> Deacon
>
>
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4061...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
in my opinion - yes, of course. If a person is "cut off" from Jesus
completely he is condemned by God. But no believer would like
to be separated from Jesus, and driven by him will show fruit.
Why should we ever wanted to leave the vine?
I phoned with a friend yesterday and spoke about this question,
he pointed to Heb 6: 4-8:
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers
of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God
and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen
away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put
Him to an open shame.
(For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it,
and brings forth plants fit for those by whom it is dressed,
receives blessing from God.
But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is a
curse, whose end is to be burned.)
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
It means hell for those.
We should not forget, however, that we are still sinners,
sometimes more, sometimes less, but living in the
vine means to be forgiven all the time if we do not sin with the
intention to leave God. That would be fatal. In Heb 6 it is
the intention to leave God that matters, not the sinning itself.
> >>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> >>>
> >>> Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life;
> >>> no one comes to the Father but by Me.
> >>> Joh 14:6
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>In the vine,
> >>>
> >>>Vera
> >>>
> >>
> >>All green and leafy with lots of fruit,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > I wished there were more and more and more...
> > So I have to get closer and closer to Jesus,
> > getting all there is from him.
> >
> > I wish you lots of fruit, and more and more,
> > may God be your gardener and bless you,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> He is and He does.
>
> May the Lord find you useful,
> Deacon
>
I'll do my best to please him as you do.
Have a very good day in the Lord,
Vera
Deacon
Patience and I'll tell you what the main body of belief is on this.
Even to the point of lining out the Greek if necessary.
God Bless,
Deacon
Deacon
> Hi Deacon,
>
Hello again,
>>
>>Now I understand what you're saying, but still I ask yet again. The
>>believer that wanders and doesn't come back. What of them? They are
>>not "truly" in the vine as they are caught up in whatever sin has
>>captured them, but are they lost because of their situation? Do they
>>suffer condemnation?
>
>
> in my opinion - yes, of course. If a person is "cut off" from Jesus
> completely he is condemned by God. But no believer would like
> to be separated from Jesus, and driven by him will show fruit.
> Why should we ever wanted to leave the vine?
>
> I phoned with a friend yesterday and spoke about this question,
> he pointed to Heb 6: 4-8:
>
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>
> For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
> and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers
> of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God
> and the powers of the world to come, and who have fallen
> away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance,
> since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put
> Him to an open shame.
> (For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it,
> and brings forth plants fit for those by whom it is dressed,
> receives blessing from God.
> But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is a
> curse, whose end is to be burned.)
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>
Good scripture, wrong people. These who have tasted the Spirit don't
yet know the fullness of Christ. Those who believe do. There is much
commentary on this passage and the basics are that those who have
encountered God, but don't yet fully believe are in danger if they
should fall away. A believer is said to fully believe and know the
fullness of Christ. There are sermons preached on this topic and I
could continue for some time. I'll just say that this is not a
reference for the passage in John. If you really want more here just
say so and I'll post some of those commentaries. Especially dealing
with verse 5.
>
>
>
> It means hell for those.
Don't think so, but I'll wait a couple of days more and then post an
answer to this particular question. This is usually the main point of a
study on these verses BTW.
>
> We should not forget, however, that we are still sinners,
> sometimes more, sometimes less, but living in the
> vine means to be forgiven all the time if we do not sin with the
> intention to leave God. That would be fatal. In Heb 6 it is
> the intention to leave God that matters, not the sinning itself.
>
>
Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
<snip>
>
>
> I'll do my best to please him as you do.
>
> Have a very good day in the Lord,
>
> Vera
>
>
That is all we can do. Our best.
Be blessed this day in the name of Jesus,
Deacon
Deacon
***correction - on this particular point.***
Vera Six
Now, dear Deacon,
let me put it this way:
As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
are saved.
Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
live without Jesus again.
But I must say, I have never thought about it this way when
reading the verses you quoted.
If you bear no fruit, you are no believer any longer. The two
things belong together.
(That is why your question implies something that cannot
be. It leads you into a circle...)
Difficult...
> <snip>
> >
> >
> > I'll do my best to please him as you do.
> >
> > Have a very good day in the Lord,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> That is all we can do. Our best.
>
> Be blessed this day in the name of Jesus,
> Deacon
Be blessed, too
Vera
Deacon
>>
>>Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
>>another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
>>discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
>
>
> Now, dear Deacon,
>
> let me put it this way:
>
> As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
> are saved.
>
> Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
> They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
> live without Jesus again.
>
> But I must say, I have never thought about it this way when
> reading the verses you quoted.
>
> If you bear no fruit, you are no believer any longer. The two
> things belong together.
>
> (That is why your question implies something that cannot
> be. It leads you into a circle...)
>
> Difficult...
>
>
Very. (Remember I ask hard questions :-) )
As far as your salvation being lost, it is not possible in my book.
Prime example:
Rom 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor
principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor
height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate
us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV
If one is saved you are in the hands of God and I don't find any "loop
holes" in the above verses. Our salvation is sure. The problem is the
verses first quoted sound like you can lose your salvation. Give me a
little time and I'll post the why that isn't the case.
Also for consideration:
Isaiah 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.
NKJV
Isaiah 51:6
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
And look on the earth beneath.
For the heavens will vanish away like smoke,
The earth will grow old like a garment,
And those who dwell in it will die in like manner;
But My salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not be abolished.
NKJV
Hebrews 5:9
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
to all who obey Him, NKJV
Remember to separate these from the passage in John. Take them as
evidence of eternal salvation.
One other verse for now:
Rom 8:1
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
NKJV
Thoughts?
God Bless,
Deacon
Chayil
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
news:3F4108E1...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
Just wanted to jump in here to say that I agree with Vera's interpretation
of Hebrews 6:4-8. I too think these verses are speaking of those who have
been saved. For one reason, if this Scripture refers to those who didn't
fully believe or did not have the full knowledge of Christ when they fell,
then it says that these false converts have no other opportunity to
experience the true salvation of God.
This is illogical to me because every false convert WILL fall away by the
mere fact that they are not in a true saving relationship with God. If Jesus
Christ is the "root" (as referred to in the initial posting) that "holds us
up" then someone who is not appended to that root will of course fall away.
So according to that interpretation of this Scripture, such a person has no
additional hope of receiving salvation because they didn't get it right the
first time. It is therefore impossible to renew them again unto repentance.
I know many people, myself included, whose first attempts to find God were
trapped in error (I myself am a former Catholic). My efforts to find God
and serve God in these other organizations continually let me down, but God
used those experiences to draw me into a real relationship with Him. He
didn't say, "Sorry. You knew a little bit about me initially and that
wasn't enough to carry you through, so now it is too late for you." This is
what we would have to believe if these Scriptures depict those who were not
saved.
Also, the Scripture itself leads me to believe that Paul is referring to
those who are saved:
1. The person in question has been "enlightened."
Ephesians 1:18 "The eyes of your understanding being 'enlighten ed'; that
ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the
glory of his inheritance in the saints"
Hebrews 10:32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye
were 'illuminated', ye endured a great fight of afflictions"
_____________
2. They have tasted of the heavenly gift.
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
_____________
3. They are partakers of the Holy Spirit
Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, 'partakers' of the heavenly calling,
consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; "
Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made 'partakers' of Christ, if we hold the
beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; "
_____________
4. They have tasted the good Word of God
I Peter 2:2-3 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that
ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
5. They have tasted of the powers of the world to come.
Ephesians 1:19-21 "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to
us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he
wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own
right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power,
and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this
world, but also in that which is to come:"
_____________
6. They have already been renewed unto repentence once before.
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according
to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of
the Holy Ghost;"
Don't throw any pudding!
Deacon
<snip>
> Just wanted to jump in here to say that I agree with Vera's interpretation
> of Hebrews 6:4-8. I too think these verses are speaking of those who have
> been saved.
Cool. I'll take that as a please post at least on theologian's work on
the subject. Thus:
Heb 6:4-8
He (the writer of Hebrews) shows how far persons may go in religion,
and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5.
(1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of
their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional
knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great
deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were
opened (Num 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter
darkness.
(2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy
of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to
taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who
taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a
taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if
they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking
up their cross, and following Christ.
(3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his
extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the
name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the
apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving
grace.
(4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish
of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much
of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and
mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them.
(5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may
have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going
to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn
apostates. Now hence observe,
[1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet
it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they
were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is
here said of apostates.
[2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints.
These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not
totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the
purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the
everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things
and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the
word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots
will not stand.
2. The apostle describes the dreadful case of such as fall away after
having gone so far in the profession of the religion.
(1.) The greatness of the sin of apostasy. It is crucifying the Son of
God afresh, and putting him to open shame. They declare that they
approve of what the Jews did in crucifying Christ, and that they would
be glad to do the same thing again if it were in their power. They pour
the greatest contempt upon the Son of God, and therefore upon God
himself, who expects all should reverence his Son, and honour him as
they honour the Father. They do what in them lies to represent Christ
and Christianity as a shameful thing, and would have him to be a public
shame and reproach. This is the nature of apostasy.
(2.) The great misery of apostates.
[1.] It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. It is
extremely hazardous. Very few instances can be given of those who have
gone so far and fallen away, and yet ever have been brought to true
repentance, such a repentance as is indeed a renovation of the soul.
Some have thought this is the sin against the Holy Ghost, but without
ground. The sin here mentioned is plainly apostasy both from the truth
and the ways of Christ. God can renew them to repentance, but he seldom
does it; and with men themselves it is impossible.
[2.] Their misery is exemplified by a proper similitude, taken from the
ground that after much cultivation brings forth nothing but briers and
thorns; and therefore is nigh unto cursing, and its end is to be burned,
v. 8. To give this the greater force here is observed the difference
that there is between the good ground and the bad, that these
contraries, being set one over against the other, illustrate each other.
First Here is a description of the good ground: It drinketh in the rain
that cometh often upon it. Believers do not only taste of the word of
God, but they drink it in; and this good ground bringeth forth fruit
answerable to the cost laid out, for the honour of Christ and the
comfort of his faithful ministers, who are, under Christ, dressers of
the ground. And this fruit-field or garden receives the blessing. God
declares fruitful Christians blessed, and all wise and good men account
them blessed: they are blessed with increase of grace, and with further
establishment and glory at last. Secondly, Here is the different case of
the bad ground: It bears briers and thorns; it is not only barren of
good fruit, but fruitful in that which is bad, briers and thorns,
fruitful in sin and wickedness, which are troublesome and hurtful to all
about them, and will be most so to sinners themselves at last; and then
such ground is rejected. God will concern himself no more about such
wicked apostates; he will let them alone, and cast them out of his care;
he will command the clouds that they rain no more upon them. Divine
influences shall be restrained; and that is not all, but such ground is
nigh unto cursing; so far is it from receiving the blessing, that a
dreadful curse hangs over it, though as yet, through the patience of
God, the curse is not fully executed. Lastly, Its end is to be burned.
Apostasy will be punished with everlasting burnings, the fire that shall
never be quenched. This is the sad end to which apostasy leads, and
therefore Christians should go on and grow in grace, lest, if they do
not go forward, they should go backward, till they bring matters to this
woeful extremity of sin and misery.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition.
Copyright (c) 1991)
<snip>
Let me know if you want more.
Shalom,
Deacon
Chayil
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> wrote in message
> Chayil wrote:
> <snip>
> > Just wanted to jump in here to say that I agree with Vera's
interpretation
> > of Hebrews 6:4-8. I too think these verses are speaking of those who
have
> > been saved.
>
> Cool. I'll take that as a please post at least on theologian's work on
> the subject. Thus:
> Heb 6:4-8
> He (the writer of Hebrews) shows how far persons may go in religion,
> and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5.
> (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of
> their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional
> knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great
> deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were
> opened (Num 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter
> darkness.
However, the use of the Greek word translated "enlightened in the New
Testament verses is used to refer to those who have been "enlightened" or
"illuminated by Christ. In addition to reviewing the sample Scriptures I
posted, it may also be helpful to review the other uses of this word in the
NT. Luke 11:36, John 1:9, I Corinthians 4:5, Ephesians 1:18, Ephesians 3:9,
II Timothy 1:10, Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 10:32, Revelation 18:1; Revelation
21:23, Revelation 22:5
In every other use of this word, it refers to the light that God alone can
give man. I don't understand why the use of this word would be compared to
its apperance of an OT word that is completely different, escpecially when
there is ample usage of the word in other parts of the NT to help illustrate
what it means.
> (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy
> of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to
> taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who
> taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a
> taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if
> they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking
> up their cross, and following Christ.
On what basis are we limiting the application of the word "taste" to imply
that it is not the full experience? Scripture also says that Jesus "tasted"
death for every man. Are we to assume that this means He did not fully die?
If you refer to the Scripture that was posted, you will see that God uses
this word to refer to those who are saved. There is no biblical ground for
saying that this word denotes something less than a fullness what is being
discussed. Taste and see that the Lord is good!
> (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his
> extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the
> name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the
> apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving
> grace.
And these gifts were sometimes bestowed on those who did have true saving
grace.
> (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish
> of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much
> of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and
> mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them.
There is no indication of this in this scripture. What is the proof that
"taste" means something less than the whole, real experience?
I believe that there is ample evidence that such individuals are in fact
saved. There is very little Scriptural evidence given for the positions
above, but a lot of theorizing about why it can't mean what it states.
While I cannot do so now, I will respond later to the rest of the posting
below. However, I wanted to provide some quick Scriptural context for the
statements above.
Thanks!
CBrown7281
>From: Deacon
>Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
>> They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
>> live without Jesus again.
>>
What about the promise that "all who believe will never be disatisfied"
If we are truely "in Christ " we will never leave Him , because he promised us
that we will be forever content "in Him"...
Any who do fall away, were never "really in Him" to begin with...
They were Christians in name only...
Cal...
Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
within you, with gentleness and respect...
Vera Six
You are saved if you believe. But you can stop to believe.
Why should there be the sin against the Holy Spirit? This
can only be done by believers and is unforgivable.
Be blessed,
Vera
CBrown7281 schrieb in Nachricht
<20030819105421...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
The Enigma
> "The Enigma" <enigma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:8e3707d3.03081...@posting.google.com...
>
> Although you haven't added your thoughts on this verse, I thought I would
> begin by adding mine. This Scripture definitely seems consistent with the
> message given in John 15:1-8 as it also confirms that individuals who do not
> abide in the faith are cut off from the Body of Christ.
>
> I Corinthians Chapter 3 addresses aspects of ministry for Christ. Paul
> starts the Chapter by admonishing the people of Corinth for creating
> divisions amongst themselves about who was the better minister or who had
> the better ministry. He advises the people that he and the other ministers
> are all fellow laborers who are tending to the harvest of souls together,
> but that God alone is responsible for the increase of His husbandry.
>
> Paul then compares the harvest of souls to a building. This is consistent
> with Peter referring to Believers as living stones that build up the
> spiritual house of God. Continuing in the same vein as the harvest analogy,
> Paul expresses how He has laid a foundation of Christ for the Church, but
> how other ministers will continue to add to the church (or build upon this
> foundation of Christ). He then cautions these fellow builders (ministers)
> to take care how they build on to this structure and to make sure that what
> they add to the building (harvest of souls) is consistent with the
> foundation (Christ).
>
> Paul then switches from speaking about the process of building upon the
> foundation (reaping the harvest of believers) to looking at the types of
> materials being used to build the structure (the types of believers being
> added to the church). He says that these may consist of gold, silver,
> precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble. Remember now, Paul is speaking of
> building a spiritual house of God where we (individual believers) are God's
> building. The harvest of souls are now represented in the building
> materials (lively stones) used to construct God's building.
> Paul says that everyman's work (those souls he has won for Christ) will be
> tried by fire. The ministers whose works (saved souls) abide in salvation
> will receive a reward. But those ministers whose works perish in the fire
> (souls that have not abided in salvation) will suffer lost. The individual
> ministers themselves however will not lose their salvation just because
> their converts may not have abided, but their reward will be less. This is
> also consistent with I Corinthians 9:1 where Paul refers to the Church at
> Corinth as His "work" in the Lord.
Dear Chayil,
How are you? Thank you for your insight and response to this verse.
I have never looked at this verse from your aspect. I'll quickly
explain how I have understood this verse:
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly
stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is,
because the Day [of Judgement] will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's
work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If
it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but
only as one escaping through flames."
I have always understood the "man" mentioned in this verse as the
individual believer. What I mean is, Christ is the foundation in my
life but what is built (in regards to this verse) is built by me. I
never saw this verse being specific to ministers of the Gospel, but
your view definitely fits! The reason why I approached this verse in
this manner is because of the "Day of Judgment" mentioned. There are
numerous verses in scripture that speak of everyone having to give an
account at the Day of Judgment. For example...
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange at the fiery suffering among
you that is coming to try you, as if a strange thing were happening to
you,
1Pe 4:13 but, according as ye have fellowship with the sufferings of
the Christ, rejoice ye, that also in the revelation of his glory ye
may rejoice -- exulting;
1Pe 4:14 if ye be reproached in the name of Christ -- happy [are ye],
because the Spirit of glory and of God upon you doth rest; in regard,
indeed, to them, he is evil-spoken of, and in regard to you, he is
glorified;
1Pe 4:15 for let none of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or
evil-doer, or as an inspector into other men's matters;
1Pe 4:16 and if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; and let him
glorify God in this respect;
1Pe 4:17 because it is the time of the beginning of the judgment from
the house of God, and if first from us, what the end of those
disobedient to the good news of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous man is scarcely saved, the ungodly and
sinner -- where shall he appear?
1Pe 4:19 so that also those suffering according to the will of god, as
to a stedfast Creator, let them commit their own souls in good doing.
I have always thought the two passages in scripture are talking about
the same event. 1 Peter 4:18 seems to be consistent with 1
Corinthians 3:15 in regards to the righteous man being "scarcely
saved" and "escaping through the flames".
Here is something to consider about the "fire" and "flames" in these
passages:
Hebrews 12:29: for also our God [is] a consuming fire.
Regardless of this, I appreciate your insight! Thank you.
CBrown7281
>You are saved if you believe. But you can stop to believe.
>Why should there be the sin against the Holy Spirit? This
>can only be done by believers and is unforgivable.
>
Vera,
How are you?
I hope this note finds you well...
About The unpardonable sin:
It is my understanding that this is not believers but rather unbelievers...
The only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin of rejecting the convicting
work of the Spirit...
In other words, IF I continue in unbelief then I can never find forgiveness
for my sins, it is the work of the Spirit to convict us of our sins , but if we
continue to reject the Spirits call/promptings then forgiveness and salvation
can not be attained...
If we remain in this state until we die, then we are in deed in an unpardoned
position and doomed to be unforgiven for all eternity...
Your friend Cal...
The Enigma
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4108E1...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
<snipped for length>
> > Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
> > another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
> > discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
>
> Now, dear Deacon,
>
> let me put it this way:
>
> As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
> are saved.
>
> Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
> They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
> live without Jesus again.
Dear Vera,
How are you? I have been watching this thread and remaining silent.
However, I'm breaking my silence because I find this issue you are
speaking about intriguing. I have had this kind of discussion with my
wife. She believes that one can lose their salvation. I do not
believe so and I will show some scripture why. For the record, I am
not looking for a debate but I really want how you support your view
scripturally. Ok, here are a few of the references with some
comments.
1 Peter 1:22Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth
through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart
one another love ye earnestly, 23being begotten again, not out of
seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God -- living
and remaining -- to the age;
If we are born again with an "incorruptible" seed, does that mean the
seed planted in us becomes "corruptible" if someone stops believing?
2 Corinthians 5:17so that if any one 'is' in Christ -- 'he is' a new
creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all
things.
If a Christian is in Christ and is a "new creature" and the old things
passed away, can the "old things" come back if they passed away?
Romans 6:6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him, that
the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the
sin;
If our old man (sinful nature?) was crucified with him, does the "old
man" come off the cross and back into the person who stop believing?
Ephesians 2:8for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and
this not of you -- of God the gift, 9 not of works, that no one may
boast; 10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to
good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
I'm sure if you'd got this far in my post you were waiting for this
reference. :o) I'm not going to break down this verse and insult
your intelligence. What I mean is, I'm sure you know what point I'm
trying to make here. That being said, I do not understand how a
person can believe they can lose their salvation in light of this
verse. If salvation is works based, then I can see how a person can
lose their salvation. According to this scripture, salvation is not
works based. Faith is a gift from God (1 Cor. 12:9).
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of
wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing
by the same Spirit;
and...
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to
every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to
think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a
measure of faith,
This is not a complete list by any means. In my opinion, and this is
probably going to offend to a degree, the teaching that one can lose
their salvation appears to be a means to keep people in fear and
obedient. In my opinion, I think in some cases it's a form of
spiritual abuse because it can leave a person wondering if they were
really saved.
2 Timothy 2:11Stedfast 'is' the word: For if we died together -- we
also shall live together; 12if we do endure together -- we shall also
reign together; if we deny 'him', he also shall deny us; 13if we are
not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.
So if a person is no longer stedfast, Jesus remains stedfast because
he is not able to deny himself. If this is true, and I believe it is
because it's scriptural, then how can a person lose their salvation if
they are not longer stedfast but Jesus still remains stedfast to the
person?
All I ask is if you reply to use scripture for me to consider. Thanks
in advance.
God Bless You,
The Enigma
P.S. One more question, do you really think that anyone who is truly a
believer become an unbeliever? I'm not talking about someone who has
stopped going to "church", or someone that lives a questionable
lifestyle. I'm talking about someone that once truly believed and
completely turned around the opposite direction, not believing at all.
I know there are Christians that struggle with addictions but I've
never really heard of someone going the other way to that extreme. Do
you know of anyone like this? Again, just curious.
Vera Six
> >You are saved if you believe. But you can stop to believe.
> >Why should there be the sin against the Holy Spirit? This
> >can only be done by believers and is unforgivable.
> >
>
> Vera,
>
> How are you?
fine, thank you - and you?
> I hope this note finds you well...
Yes, thanks. :-)
> About The unpardonable sin:
>
> It is my understanding that this is not believers but rather unbelievers...
> The only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin of rejecting the convicting
> work of the Spirit...
> In other words, IF I continue in unbelief then I can never find forgiveness
> for my sins, it is the work of the Spirit to convict us of our sins , but if we
> continue to reject the Spirits call/promptings then forgiveness and salvation
> can not be attained...
> If we remain in this state until we die, then we are in deed in an unpardoned
> position and doomed to be unforgiven for all eternity...
Right, but there could be situations where people fall apart. Our faith is
tempted from time to time. There are doubts sometimes - and what if we
changed our mind? What if a person suddenly worshipped Allah, for example, because he fell in love with a Muslim? So you think it is
not possible if you are
really a believer?
I really cannot answer this question. From the logical aspect I would
like to say it is possible to be condemned. From my subjective view,
however, I could not imaging falling apart from God for good.
Again it is a question of belief which can be destroyed - what will happen if?
Can a believer become an unbeliever again?
> Your friend Cal...
>
> Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
> within you, with gentleness and respect...
Vera,
your friend, too
CBrown7281
>Date: 8/19/03 3:29 PM Central Daylight Time
Hello again Vera,
Yes I am well, thank you...
>Right, but there could be situations where people fall apart. Our faith is
>tempted from time to time.
We may fall on board, but never overboard...
>There are doubts sometimes - and what if we
>changed our mind?
Well, we may doubt for a time, but God will never aloow us to stay in this
condition...He will "spank our little behinds" and "move us" to a point where
we will call out to Him for strength, and at that point we will receive it...He
will never leave us nor forsake us, never,never, never...
The Bible is clear, once we have come to the point where we truely believe,
then He will do all that He has promised and in so doing none, that are given
to Christ will be lost...
>What if a person suddenly worshipped Allah, for example, because he fell in
>love with a Muslim?
Can it be , that someone who has come to know such a loving Savior , that they
can find someone who they can love more than Him? No, I do not think so...not
if their love is genuine...
>So you think it is
>not possible if you are
>really a believer?
No Vera, I do not...no human can every hope to show more love than what
Christ did for us, for no one has so much to sacrifice as what our Lord had..
.He gave up much more than just His life, and that is all anyone here could
even hope to offer another...not even close...
>Can a believer become an unbeliever again?
Not if they have placed their "belief" in Christ who has never broken a
single promise to anyone at any time...
Your Friend, Cal...
Deacon
I assume this was for Vera Six???
Deacon
Here is another:
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have
tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
We must 'go on toward perfection;' "For," if we fall away, after having
received enlightenment, God will not "permit" - it will be impossible to
renew us again to repentance. But see Luke 18:27.
For those - 'in the case of those.'
Once enlightened - once for all illuminated by the Word of God, taught
in connection with 'baptism' (to which, in Heb 6:2, as once for all
done, "once enlightened" here answers) (cf. Eph 5:26). This passage
originated the subsequent application of 'illumination' to baptism.
Illumination was not supposed inseparably to accompany baptism.
Chrysostom says 'Heretics have baptism, not illumination: they are
baptized in body, not enlightened in soul: as Simon Magus was baptized,
but not illuminated.' That "enlightened" here means knowledge of the
truth appears from comparing [footisthentes (NT:5461)] "illuminated,"
Heb 10:32, with the corresponding Heb. 6:26 , "knowledge of the truth."
Tasted, [for themselves: geusamenous (NT:1089)]. As "enlightened" refers
to sight, so taste follows (1 Peter 2:3).
The heavenly gift - Christ given by the Father: revealed by the
enlightening word: bestowing peace in the forgiveness of sins and the
Holy Spirit (John 3:16; 4:10; 6:32; 2 Cor 9:15): answering to "baptisms"
(Heb 6:2: cf. Acts 22:16) and "the Son of God" (Heb 6:6): distinct from
"the Holy Spirit" in the next clause, who also is "the gift of God"
(Acts 8:20).
Made partakers of the Holy Spirit - distinct from, though inseparably
connected with, "enlightened," "tasted of the heavenly gift," Christ:
answering to "laying on of hands" after baptism, then generally
accompanied with the impartation of the Holy Spirit in miraculous gifts.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)
Hebrews 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Tasted the good word of God - distinct from "tasted OF (genitive) the
heavenly gift." We do not yet enjoy all the fullness of Christ, but only
a taste OF "the heavenly gift;" but believers may taste the whole of
God's "good word" (accusative) of promise already. The promise of Canaan
to Israel typified "the good word" of God's promise of the heavenly
rest, (Heb 4.) Therefore immediately follows "the powers of the world to
come." As 'enlightening' and 'tasting of the heavenly gift,' Christ, the
Bread of Life, answers to FAITH, so "made partakers of the Holy Spirit,"
to CHARITY, the first fruit of the Spirit; and "tasted the good word of
God, and the powers of the world to come," to HOPE. Thus the triad of
privileges answers to the Trinity-Father, Son, and Spirit-in their
respective works toward us. "The world to come" is the Christian
dispensation, viewed in its future glories, though already begun in
grace. It stands in contrast to the course of this world (Eph 2:2),
which is disorganized, because God is not its spring of action and end.
By faith Christians make the world to come a present reality. "The
powers" of this new spiritual world, exhibited in outward miracles
partly, and then, as now, especially consisting in the Spirit's inward
influences, are the foretaste of the coming inheritance, and lead the
believer to seek to live as the angels, to 'sit with Christ in heavenly
places,' to set the affection on things above, and not on things on
earth, and to look for Christ's coming. This "world to come" thus
corresponds to "resurrection of the dead and ... eternal judgment" (Heb
6:2), the first Christian principles which the Hebrew believers had been
taught by the Christian light thrown back on their Old Testament (note,
Heb 6:1-2). "The world to come," which, as to its "powers," exists
already in the redeemed, will pass into a fully realized, manifested
fact at Christ's coming (Col 3:4).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)
Hebrews 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing
they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open
shame.
If, [kai (NT:2532) parapesontas (NT:3895)] - 'And (yet) have fallen
away' (cf. a less extreme declension, Gal 5:4). Here a total apostasy is
meant. The Hebrews had not yet so fallen away; but he warns them that
such would be the end of retrogression, if, instead of 'going on to
perfection,' they should need to learn again the first principles (Heb 6:1).
To renew them again. "Once" (Heb 6:4) already made anew, now they need
'renewal' over "again."
Crucify to themselves - 'are crucifying to themselves' Christ, instead
of crucifying the world unto them by the cross of Christ (Gal 6:14). So
Heb 10:29.
The Son of God - His dignity marks the heinousness of their offence.
Put him to an open shame, [paradeigmatizontas (NT:3856)] - 'make a
public example of' Him, as of a malefactor suspended on a tree. What the
carnal Israel did outwardly, those who fall away from light do inwardly:
they virtually crucify again the Son of God: 'they tear Him out of their
hearts, where He fixed His abode, and exhibit Him to the open scoffs of
the world as something powerless and common' (Bleek in Alford). The
Montanists and Novatians used this passage to justify the lasting
exclusion from the Church of the lapsed. The Catholic Church always
opposed this, and re-admitted them on repentance, without re-baptism.
Persons may be in some sense 'renewed' yet fall away finally; for "renew
... again" implies that they have been ONCE RENEWED; but not that 'the
elect' can fall away (John 10:28). A temporary faith is possible,
without one thereby being of the elect (Mark 4:16-17; John 8:31,35;
15:2,5-6).
God's grace is not limited, as if it were "impossible" for God to
reclaim even such a rebel so as yet to look on Him whom he has pierced.
The impossibility rests in their having known in themselves once the
power of Christ's sacrifice, yet now rejecting it: there cannot possibly
be new means for their renewal afresh: the means provided by God's love
they now, after experience of them, deliberately and continuously
reject: their conscience being seared, "twice dead" (Jude 12), they are
past hope, except by a miracle of God's grace. 'It is the curse of evil
eternally to propagate evil. The bar to repentance is in the apostate's
present attitude toward God, not in his past history, nor in God's
attitude toward him. He who abides not in the Christian experiences
which he had objectively, was, at the very time when he had them, not
subjectively true to them; otherwise, on the principle, "Whosoever hath,
to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance" (Matt 13:12),
he would have abided in them, and not have fallen away' (Tholuck). Such
a one was never a Spirit-led disciple of Christ (Rom 8:14-17). The sin
against the Holy Spirit, though similar, is not identical with this; for
that may be committed by those outside the church (as in Matt
12:24,31-32); this, only by those inside.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)
Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and
bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth
blessing from God:
The earth - rather (no article), 'land.'
Which drinketh in - not merely receiving it on the surface: those who
enjoy, objectively, Christian experiences, in some sense renewed by the
Holy Spirit; true of those who persevere, and those who "fall away."
The rain that cometh oft upon it - not merely falling over, or toward
it, but falling and resting upon, so as to cover it [the genitive, ep'
(NT:1909) autees (NT:846): not the accusative]. The "oft" implies, on
God's part, the riches of abounding grace ('coming' spontaneously and
frequently); on the apostate's part, the perversity whereby he does
continual despite to the Spirit's oft-repeated motions. Compare "how
often," Matt 23:37. The heavenly rain falls both on the elect and the
apostates.
Bringeth forth - the natural result of 'having drunk in the rain.'
Meet - such as the master of the soil wishes. The opposite of "rejected"
(Heb 6:8).
By whom, [di' (NT:1223) hous (NT:3739)] - rather, 'for (i.e., on account
of) whom;' namely, the lords of the soil; not the labourers, as the
English version-namely, God and Christ (1 Cor 3:9). The heart is the
earth; man, the dresser; herbs are brought forth meet, not for the
dresser, by whom, but for God, the owner, for whom, it is dressed. The
plural is, the owners, whoever they may be; here. God.
Receiveth, [metalambanei (NT:3335)] - 'partaketh of.'
Blessing - fruitfulness. Contrast God's curse causing unfruitfulness,
Gen 3:17-18; spiritually, Jer 17:5-8.
From God. Man's use of means are vain unless God bless (1 Cor 3:6-7).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)
Hebrews 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto
cursing; whose end is to be burned.
That which rather (Greek, no article), 'but if it (the "land," Heb 6:7)
bear' [ekferousa (NT:1627), not so good as tiktousa (NT:5088)];
"bringeth forth," Heb 6:7; said of the good soil.
Briers, [tribolous (NT:5146)] - 'thistles.'
Rejected - by God, after having been tested [adokimos (NT:96)]. Reprobate.
Nigh unto cursing - verging to being given up to its own barrenness by
God's just curse. "Nigh" (near) softens the severity of "it is
impossible," etc. (Heb 6:4,6). The ground is not yet actually cursed.
Whose - of which (land) the end is [eis (NT:1519) kausin (NT:2740)] unto
burning, at the last judgment. As the land of Sodom was given to
"brimstone, and salt, and burning" (Deut 29:23); so as to the ungodly
(Matt 3:10,12; 7:19; 13:30; John 15:6; 2 Peter 3:10). Jerusalem, which
so resisted the grace of Christ, was then near unto cursing, and in a
few years was "burned." Compare Matt 22:7, an earnest of a like fate to
all abusers of God's grace (Heb 10:26-27).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)
For consideration.
Shalom,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F414028...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> >>
> >>Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
> >>another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
> >>discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
> >
> >
> > Now, dear Deacon,
> >
> > let me put it this way:
> >
> > As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
> > are saved.
> >
> > Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
> > They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
> > live without Jesus again.
> >
> > But I must say, I have never thought about it this way when
> > reading the verses you quoted.
> >
> > If you bear no fruit, you are no believer any longer. The two
> > things belong together.
> >
> > (That is why your question implies something that cannot
> > be. It leads you into a circle...)
> >
> > Difficult...
> >
> >
>
> Very. (Remember I ask hard questions :-) )
yes, very hard ones. I have really never worried about it by now. ;-)
> As far as your salvation being lost, it is not possible in my book.
Okay, okay, okay .... you have convinced me. We are saved. Forever.
I knew this already...
Maybe the whole image of the vine is just a "would happen but does not".
It all depends on the term "believer".
You can be switched on to "believer" but this cannot be switched off
any more. Right?
Anyhow, I would not like to test it out, saved or not saved.
> Prime example:
> Rom 8:38-39
> 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor
> principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor
> height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate
> us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> NKJV
>
> If one is saved you are in the hands of God and I don't find any "loop
> holes" in the above verses. Our salvation is sure. The problem is the
> verses first quoted sound like you can lose your salvation. Give me a
> little time and I'll post the why that isn't the case.
There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
cannot fall out.
> Also for consideration:
> Isaiah 45:17
> 17 But Israel shall be saved by the LORD
> With an everlasting salvation;
> You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
> Forever and ever.
> NKJV
>
> Isaiah 51:6
> 6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
> And look on the earth beneath.
> For the heavens will vanish away like smoke,
> The earth will grow old like a garment,
> And those who dwell in it will die in like manner;
> But My salvation will be forever,
> And My righteousness will not be abolished.
> NKJV
>
> Hebrews 5:9
> 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation
> to all who obey Him, NKJV
Yes, thanks for that. There are many more other verses that underline
your view. I know. There is enough evidence for it.
> Remember to separate these from the passage in John. Take them as
> evidence of eternal salvation.
Right.
> One other verse for now:
> Rom 8:1
> 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
> Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
> NKJV
>
> Thoughts?
The same as before - as long as you believe you are saved.
But God will keep you in him. Cal gave a good explanation to this.
I wish you a lot of strawberries, oranges, peaches, cherries,
apples and bananas, may you have some nice coloured dreams
of those. (Why should you be better off than me?)
God bless you,
Vera
Vera Six
"The Enigma" <enigma...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8e3707d3.03081...@posting.google.com...
> "Vera Six" <ver...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<bhr3rk$shq$06$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4108E1...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
> <snipped for length>
>
> > > Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
> > > another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
> > > discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
> >
> > Now, dear Deacon,
> >
> > let me put it this way:
> >
> > As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
> > are saved.
> >
> > Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
> > They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
> > live without Jesus again.
>
> Dear Vera,
> How are you?
I am fine, thank you. And you?
> I have been watching this thread and remaining silent.
Why? It is just a conversation about some special verses.
Why are you so upset? Because I say what I take from those?
I was not waiting at all. I am just trying to understand the verses about
the vine Deacon quoted in the beginning of this thread.
> I'm not going to break down this verse and insult
> your intelligence.
Which verse do you mean?
> What I mean is, I'm sure you know what point I'm
> trying to make here.
No, not really.
> That being said, I do not understand how a
> person can believe they can lose their salvation in light of this
> verse. If salvation is works based,
I have never ever anywhere said that.
> then I can see how a person can
> lose their salvation. According to this scripture, salvation is not
> works based. Faith is a gift from God (1 Cor. 12:9).
Of course. We agree on that.
> 1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of
> wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
> 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing
> by the same Spirit;
>
> and...
>
> Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to
> every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to
> think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a
> measure of faith,
>
> This is not a complete list by any means.
I know that - there is much evidence for that. We agree.
> In my opinion, and this is
> probably going to offend to a degree, the teaching that one can lose
> their salvation appears to be a means to keep people in fear and
> obedient. In my opinion, I think in some cases it's a form of
> spiritual abuse because it can leave a person wondering if they were
> really saved.
How comes you have such a strange idea of my thinking?
You are going a bit too far by that.
I am not the teacher here - maybe you? I just want to learn something.
> 2 Timothy 2:11Stedfast 'is' the word: For if we died together -- we
> also shall live together; 12if we do endure together -- we shall also
> reign together; if we deny 'him', he also shall deny us; 13if we are
> not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.
>
> So if a person is no longer stedfast, Jesus remains stedfast because
> he is not able to deny himself. If this is true, and I believe it is
> because it's scriptural, then how can a person lose their salvation if
> they are not longer stedfast but Jesus still remains stedfast to the
> person?
>
> All I ask is if you reply to use scripture for me to consider. Thanks
> in advance.
Yes, this is the Scripture for you to consider (the same Scripture
I am trying to consider here):
John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in
Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears
fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean
because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 Abide in Me, and I in
you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the
vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in
him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 If anyone
does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and
they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If
you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you
desire, and it shall be done for you.8 By this My Father is glorified,
that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
NKJV
I am really very much looking forward to your explanation how to
explain this:
> 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away
and this:
> 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and
is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and
they are burned.
Now it is your turn.
My explanation was:
As long as we are believers we are saved.
What is wrong with that?
You can chose any time not to believe. If this was different, we
would not have a free will any more. But we have.
I - from my personal view on others - cannot say if somebody could
stop being a believer. I only know about myself. I really do not know
what might happen to others.
> God Bless You,
> The Enigma
>
> P.S. One more question, do you really think that anyone who is truly a
> believer become an unbeliever?
How can I know? I can only look on foreheads, not inside.
> I'm not talking about someone who has
> stopped going to "church", or someone that lives a questionable
> lifestyle. I'm talking about someone that once truly believed and
> completely turned around the opposite direction, not believing at all.
I do not know. I cannot imagine it for me, though.
> I know there are Christians that struggle with addictions but I've
> never really heard of someone going the other way to that extreme. Do
> you know of anyone like this? Again, just curious.
I am not from a Christian home. I only knew a lot of atheists before I met
Jesus and I really do not know. Those who may have drifted apart will not
show up at church. But I know several who say they were born again once
but are now against God and believing in him. Now you can say, they were
no true believers. But who can say? Only God will know about this, not me.
Yours in Christ,
Vera
Vera Six
Hello again dear friend Cal,
> Yes I am well, thank you...
>
> >Right, but there could be situations where people fall apart. Our faith is
> >tempted from time to time.
>
> We may fall on board, but never overboard...
Yes, you have explained this very well.
> >There are doubts sometimes - and what if we
> >changed our mind?
> Well, we may doubt for a time, but God will never aloow us to stay in this
> condition...He will "spank our little behinds" and "move us" to a point where
> we will call out to Him for strength, and at that point we will receive it...He
> will never leave us nor forsake us, never,never, never...
That convinces me, Cal.
> The Bible is clear, once we have come to the point where we truely believe,
> then He will do all that He has promised and in so doing none, that are given
> to Christ will be lost...
Right, but what does the cut off branch and the burning mean? Why
is it there in the Scripture? Jesus could have left that.
> >What if a person suddenly worshipped Allah, for example, because he fell in
> >love with a Muslim?
>
> Can it be , that someone who has come to know such a loving Savior , that they
> can find someone who they can love more than Him? No, I do not think so...not
> if their love is genuine...
But who can say? I cannot. Only God can. Maybe the verses are meant
that God will find out by the fruit who is a true believer and who is not.
> >So you think it is
> >not possible if you are
> >really a believer?
>
> No Vera, I do not...no human can every hope to show more love than what
> Christ did for us, for no one has so much to sacrifice as what our Lord had..
> .He gave up much more than just His life, and that is all anyone here could
> even hope to offer another...not even close...
Yes, I know.
> >Can a believer become an unbeliever again?
>
> Not if they have placed their "belief" in Christ who has never broken a
> single promise to anyone at any time...
That is my opinion, too - not "if"... But it is not a clear "no". At least if
you have to consider others, not yourself.
> Your Friend, Cal...
Your friend Vera again.
> Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
> within you, with gentleness and respect...
This pleases me much - where did you get it from?
Deacon
> Hello Deacon,
>
Hi Vera Six,
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F414028...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
>>Vera Six wrote:
>>
>>>>Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
>>>>another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
>>>>discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
>>>
>>>
>>>Now, dear Deacon,
>>>
>>>let me put it this way:
>>>
>>>As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
>>>are saved.
>>>
>>>Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
>>>They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
>>>live without Jesus again.
>>>
>>>But I must say, I have never thought about it this way when
>>>reading the verses you quoted.
>>>
>>>If you bear no fruit, you are no believer any longer. The two
>>>things belong together.
>>>
>>>(That is why your question implies something that cannot
>>>be. It leads you into a circle...)
>>>
>>>Difficult...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Very. (Remember I ask hard questions :-) )
>
>
> yes, very hard ones. I have really never worried about it by now. ;-)
>
Once a teacher always a teacher!! ;-)
>
>>As far as your salvation being lost, it is not possible in my book.
>
>
> Okay, okay, okay .... you have convinced me. We are saved. Forever.
>
> I knew this already...
>
> Maybe the whole image of the vine is just a "would happen but does not".
>
> It all depends on the term "believer".
>
> You can be switched on to "believer" but this cannot be switched off
> any more. Right?
>
Let me just say it's a complex issue and the simple answer is yes.
> Anyhow, I would not like to test it out, saved or not saved.
AMEN!!
>
>
>>Prime example:
>>Rom 8:38-39
>> 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor
>>principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor
>>height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate
>>us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
>>NKJV
>>
>>If one is saved you are in the hands of God and I don't find any "loop
>>holes" in the above verses. Our salvation is sure. The problem is the
>>verses first quoted sound like you can lose your salvation. Give me a
>>little time and I'll post the why that isn't the case.
>
>
> There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
> cannot fall out.
>
Right. (I think)
Ok. I can live with that.
> But God will keep you in him. Cal gave a good explanation to this.
>
That he did.
> I wish you a lot of strawberries, oranges, peaches, cherries,
> apples and bananas, may you have some nice coloured dreams
> of those. (Why should you be better off than me?)
>
We share in Christ equally. Amen?
> God bless you,
>
> Vera
>
>
May He open the windows of Heaven in your life,
Deacon
The Enigma
> Hi Enigma,
>
> "The Enigma" <enigma...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8e3707d3.03081...@posting.google.com...
> > "Vera Six" <ver...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<bhr3rk$shq$06$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> > > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4108E1...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >
> > <snipped for length>
> >
> > > > Another issue here is, can you lose your salvation? I'm working on
> > > > another post on that very issue. Of course I am more than happy to
> > > > discuss it here also if you like. Just let me know.
> > >
> > > Now, dear Deacon,
> > >
> > > let me put it this way:
> > >
> > > As long as we believe, we are in this vine and will bear fruit and
> > > are saved.
> > >
> > > Of course people can stop to believe and lose salvation.
> > > They can deny the Holy Spirit any time. They can decide to
> > > live without Jesus again.
> >
> > Dear Vera,
> > How are you?
>
> I am fine, thank you. And you?
I'm doing good. I was a little "irregular" this morning but other
than that I feel pretty good.
> > I have been watching this thread and remaining silent.
>
> Why? It is just a conversation about some special verses.
> Why are you so upset? Because I say what I take from those?
>
Vera,
What gave you the impression that I was upset? Just curious.
The Enigma
>
> hi enigma -- i am jumping in just to say hi. i have been praying and
> praying for your family and the new baby -- and maybe you gave a
> report and i missed it. but, i would love to know how things went and
> are going so far. maybe another thread as not to mess deacon's up
> (like i am doing).
Hey Pablo,
Thanks for your thoughts and prayers. Here is a link to the post I
made a few weeks ago that is more detailed about how things have been
for me and my family.
> i want to continue to pray for your new addition and the family and
> yourself as well (aka all of you). it's something that i sense a
> prompting to do, and something i do gladly and willingly too. plus,
> as i look at my little one and pray for her -- yours gets a prayer
> too. it's an easy way for me to remember.
Thank you again. I will do the same for you.
> mostly, i am a simple pray-er asking simply for God's blessings --
> blessing that you may bless God, blessings that you may bless others
> and blessings that you may be blessed.
>
> peac3e.
> Pablo
I really appreciate it! God Bless You.
The Enigma
Vera Six
I think you are a great enrichment to this group. :-)
You may speak in tongues or not: I love you, Sister (sister, right?).
Be blessed,
Vera
"Chayil" <cha...@bellsouth.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:0fd0b.14770$sA4....@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
Vera Six
> What gave you the impression that I was upset? Just curious.
I had the impession from the whole post and from the style. It sounded a bit upsetto me.
Did I misunderstand it, Enigma?
In Christ,
Vera
pablo
> ba...@sushi.co.jp (pablo) wrote in message news:<2d487387.03081...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > hi enigma -- i am jumping in just to say hi. i have been praying and
> > praying for your family and the new baby -- and maybe you gave a
> > report and i missed it. but, i would love to know how things went and
> > are going so far. maybe another thread as not to mess deacon's up
> > (like i am doing).
>
> Hey Pablo,
> Thanks for your thoughts and prayers. Here is a link to the post I
> made a few weeks ago that is more detailed about how things have been
> for me and my family.
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=8e3707d3.0308070409.247dd04c%40posting.google.com
>
wow, thanks -- glad to hear that the wife and the baby (who takes
after you) made it through the birthing process and the recovery.
i will add your church issue and the friends issue to my prayers --
though honestly, i mostly pause and ask simply for God's blessings in
your life when i pray.
you nailed something incredibly important about relationships and
church in your post. i too live 100's of miles away from my home
town. i missed your post while visiting home -- and i was able to
visit my home church on a wednesday night.
an old friend asked me, "how long have you been gone?" and it just
hit me that i had left that place almost 10 years before. and yet, on
that evening (and most of my closest friends do not even attend on
wednesdays) i didn't have to do a thing to pick back up those old
relationships.
an entire room full of people and the years meant very little, if
nothing, in our ability to hook up and make contact on a meaningful
level.
it's because we spent years building those bonds -- they are strong.
when we move it takes a great deal of time to build new bonds and to
shift our paradigm from the last community we were in to the new one.
when it comes to church - it's even harder, because we are all
different in many ways, and churches tend to follow the birds of a
feather principle at some point in their history - they flock
together.
i was taught that if a person doesn't know 6 people by their first
name in 6 weeks that the highest probability is that the person will
drop out of that church (or church in general).
i think it's obvious by the commandments that we were created for
relationships -- created for loving God and created for community (the
loving of one another).
i ramble on this because i think you have touched on one of the more
powerful forces of the christian life -- the relational aspect.
most people, well at least many people, retain the relationships they
inherited and live within 50 miles of where they were born. they say
those numbers are changing, but the last info i heard in a conference
was that the "mobile culture" was actually returning home or moving on
in 1-3 years.
but, some of us have had the privilege and challenge of moving beyond
the relationships we inherited and have been "forced" to face a
reality of relationships, it takes time, it takes effort, it takes
choices, it takes change, it is not easy.
i say it is a privilege because any time we see a new person walk into
a church -- we know what courage they are displaying and we should be
more understanding of the sensitive nature of what they are doing. we
should be the most hospitiable people on earth -- and sadly, in many
cases, we simply are not.
sorry about the ramble.
thanks for pointing me to the update.
peac3e.
pablo
The Enigma
Hi Vera,
Sorry if my posting style came across the wrong way. I was not upset
in my post at all! I promise you that I was not upset.
I'm curious to know, are you from Germany?
Vera Six
sorry if I was wrong. Maybe I was upset reading it? ;-)
Yes, I am German. I live near Cologne there.
Be blessed,
Vera
"The Enigma" <enigma...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:8e3707d3.03082...@posting.google.com...
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F430DAA...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
okay - we agree on this.
> > Anyhow, I would not like to test it out, saved or not saved.
>
> AMEN!!
You see, this question has never come into my mind by now.
> >>Prime example:
> >>Rom 8:38-39
> >> 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor
> >>principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor
> >>height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate
> >>us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> >>NKJV
> >>
> >>If one is saved you are in the hands of God and I don't find any "loop
> >>holes" in the above verses. Our salvation is sure. The problem is the
> >>verses first quoted sound like you can lose your salvation. Give me a
> >>little time and I'll post the why that isn't the case.
> >
> >
> > There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
> > cannot fall out.
> >
>
> Right. (I think)
Right. But what about the free will?
Oh - I have just saved your life! That is all I wanted... ;-)
> > But God will keep you in him. Cal gave a good explanation to this.
> >
>
> That he did.
Right.
> > I wish you a lot of strawberries, oranges, peaches, cherries,
> > apples and bananas, may you have some nice coloured dreams
> > of those. (Why should you be better off than me?)
> >
>
> We share in Christ equally. Amen?
Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
> > God bless you,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> May He open the windows of Heaven in your life,
> Deacon
Oh yes, I would enjoy that.
May he fill your life with love, joy and peace.
Vera
Deacon
> Hi Deacon,
>
Hello again,
<snip>
>>>There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
>>>cannot fall out.
>>>
>>
>>Right. (I think)
>
>
> Right. But what about the free will?
You really want to get into predestiny?
There is only one way I know of that a Christian could fall. That would
be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't really think a true Christian
could do that however, so once save always saved. Heck I don't even
like thinking about it.
Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
share. :-)
>
>
>>>God bless you,
>>>
>>>Vera
>>>
>>>
>>
>>May He open the windows of Heaven in your life,
>>Deacon
>
>
> Oh yes, I would enjoy that.
>
> May he fill your life with love, joy and peace.
>
> Vera
>
>
He does. Hallelujah!
This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it,
Deacon
Vera Six
sorry - I was lacking concentration a bit.
[snip]
> <snip>
> >>>There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
> >>>cannot fall out.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Right. (I think)
> >
> >
> > Right. But what about the free will?
>
> You really want to get into predestiny?
I am not quite sure if I really want that. I have my views on
it, and I want to keep them. They are good. :-)
> There is only one way I know of that a Christian could fall. That would
> be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't really think a true Christian
> could do that however, so once save always saved. Heck I don't even
> like thinking about it.
I do not either.
I talked about this subject with my best friend and sister in the Lord.
She was raised in a very strict Christian home and told me she had
quitted Jesus - after her conversion. So this is possible. She also
referred to Judas Iscariot, and to Demas:
For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present
world, and he has departed to Thessalonica.
2Ti 4:10
Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
the big ones. :-)
Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
[Ha, ha - good place, Cyberia. If things were this easy
in real life...]
> >>>God bless you,
> >>>
> >>>Vera
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>May He open the windows of Heaven in your life,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > Oh yes, I would enjoy that.
> >
> > May he fill your life with love, joy and peace.
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> He does. Hallelujah!
>
> This is the day the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it,
> Deacon
Hallelujah - of course. I hope I will not forget about that.
Have a wonderful day in the Lord,
Vera
Deacon
> Hi Deacon,
>
Hi Vera Six
> sorry - I was lacking concentration a bit.
>
I know the feeling. Now what the heck was I doing???? ;-)
> [snip]
>
>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
>>>>>cannot fall out.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Right. (I think)
>>>
>>>
>>>Right. But what about the free will?
>>
>>You really want to get into predestiny?
>
>
> I am not quite sure if I really want that. I have my views on
> it, and I want to keep them. They are good. :-)
Cool.
>
>
>>There is only one way I know of that a Christian could fall. That would
>>be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't really think a true Christian
>>could do that however, so once save always saved. Heck I don't even
>>like thinking about it.
>
>
> I do not either.
>
> I talked about this subject with my best friend and sister in the Lord.
>
> She was raised in a very strict Christian home and told me she had
> quitted Jesus - after her conversion. So this is possible. She also
> referred to Judas Iscariot, and to Demas:
>
> For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present
> world, and he has departed to Thessalonica.
> 2Ti 4:10
>
Demetrius left Paul not God. I said before you can freely walk away
from God after you accept Him, but He will not leave you ever. I know I
tried to myself. He just kept after me until I came back. Again if I
had chosen not to return I would not be writting this. I might be at
home with Him. I glad I came back. Don't get me wrong I'd rather be in
Heaven, but here I can still bring the gospel to others. I look at
people with different eyes since I started the ministry. The lost just
break my heart. I know their fate even if they won't accept it. If I
can be useful and yield to God, He can and does use me to bring them to
Himself. That is why I'm glad I returned to Him.
>
<snip>
>>>Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
>>
>>Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
>>God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
>>share. :-)
>
>
> Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
> the big ones. :-)
>
> Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
>
I'll share. Don't think I could eat all the strawberries that God can
provide. :-D
> [Ha, ha - good place, Cyberia. If things were this easy
> in real life...]
>
Amen Sister.
>
Memory verse for the day - Psalms 118:24
Be blessed and at peace,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F47C704...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> > Hi Deacon,
> >
>
> Hi Vera Six
>
> > sorry - I was lacking concentration a bit.
> >
>
> I know the feeling. Now what the heck was I doing???? ;-)
;-)
But I am better now. Just wait, my friend ...
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>>There is no "loop hole", but all depends on being in Christ. Okay - you
> >>>>>cannot fall out.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Right. (I think)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Right. But what about the free will?
> >>
> >>You really want to get into predestiny?
> >
> >
> > I am not quite sure if I really want that. I have my views on
> > it, and I want to keep them. They are good. :-)
>
> Cool.
Yes, cool!
I mean, if you just think of --------------- okay, I'll stop. ;-)
> >>There is only one way I know of that a Christian could fall. That would
> >>be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't really think a true Christian
> >>could do that however, so once save always saved. Heck I don't even
> >>like thinking about it.
> >
> >
> > I do not either.
> >
> > I talked about this subject with my best friend and sister in the Lord.
> >
> > She was raised in a very strict Christian home and told me she had
> > quitted Jesus - after her conversion. So this is possible. She also
> > referred to Judas Iscariot, and to Demas:
> >
> > For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present
> > world, and he has departed to Thessalonica.
> > 2Ti 4:10
> >
>
> Demetrius left Paul not God. I said before you can freely walk away
> from God after you accept Him, but He will not leave you ever.
Yes, but he left Paul "having loved this present world". If you love
the world, you do not love Jesus. Wrong?
> I know I tried to myself. He just kept after me until I came back.
Maybe. That is what happened to my friend, too. She came back.
> Again if I had chosen not to return I would not be writting this.
> I might be at home with Him. I glad I came back.
I am glad about that, too, Deacon! :-) I would not have met you,
otherwise. I really would have missed something.
> Don't get me wrong I'd rather be in
> Heaven, but here I can still bring the gospel to others. I look at
> people with different eyes since I started the ministry. The lost just
> break my heart. I know their fate even if they won't accept it. If I
> can be useful and yield to God, He can and does use me to bring them to
> Himself. That is why I'm glad I returned to Him.
Yes, we have a job to do. The best thing in life can be to lead
people to Jesus. To plant seeds, too. >
> <snip>
> >>>Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
> >>
> >>Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
> >>God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
> >>share. :-)
> >
> >
> > Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
> > the big ones. :-)
> >
> > Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
> >
>
> I'll share. Don't think I could eat all the strawberries that God can
> provide. :-D
But you must. ;-) [How mean can I be...]
> > [Ha, ha - good place, Cyberia. If things were this easy
> > in real life...]
> >
>
> Amen Sister.
>
> >
>
> Memory verse for the day - Psalms 118:24
This IS the day...
Thank you - this helped me much.
Sisterly love,
Vera
Deacon
> Hi Deacon again,
>
Howdy Ma'am,
Let's just say that you can make the mistake of putting "things" before
God in your life. That may or may not mean you stop loving Jesus. It
may just means you need a course correction in your walk.
>
>>I know I tried to myself. He just kept after me until I came back.
>
>
> Maybe. That is what happened to my friend, too. She came back.
>
>
>>Again if I had chosen not to return I would not be writting this.
>>I might be at home with Him. I glad I came back.
>
>
> I am glad about that, too, Deacon! :-) I would not have met you,
> otherwise. I really would have missed something.
>
Flattery will get you everywhere. ;-)
>
>>Don't get me wrong I'd rather be in
>>Heaven, but here I can still bring the gospel to others. I look at
>>people with different eyes since I started the ministry. The lost just
>>break my heart. I know their fate even if they won't accept it. If I
>>can be useful and yield to God, He can and does use me to bring them to
>>Himself. That is why I'm glad I returned to Him.
>
>
> Yes, we have a job to do. The best thing in life can be to lead
> people to Jesus. To plant seeds, too. >
>
Amen.
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
>>>>
>>>>Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
>>>>God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
>>>>share. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
>>>the big ones. :-)
>>>
>>>Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
>>>
>>
>>I'll share. Don't think I could eat all the strawberries that God can
>>provide. :-D
>
>
> But you must. ;-) [How mean can I be...]
>
No we must share. God doesn't like greed!! :-)
>
May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4AD1AF...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
right, I would suggest it just means sinning "having loved this
present world".
> >>I know I tried to myself. He just kept after me until I came back.
> >
> >
> > Maybe. That is what happened to my friend, too. She came back.
> >
> >
> >>Again if I had chosen not to return I would not be writting this.
> >>I might be at home with Him. I glad I came back.
> >
> >
> > I am glad about that, too, Deacon! :-) I would not have met you,
> > otherwise. I really would have missed something.
> >
>
> Flattery will get you everywhere. ;-)
No no - I mean what I say. I really love to have found somebody
in you with who I can talk about the Bible. Great!
> >>Don't get me wrong I'd rather be in
> >>Heaven, but here I can still bring the gospel to others. I look at
> >>people with different eyes since I started the ministry. The lost just
> >>break my heart. I know their fate even if they won't accept it. If I
> >>can be useful and yield to God, He can and does use me to bring them to
> >>Himself. That is why I'm glad I returned to Him.
> >
> >
> > Yes, we have a job to do. The best thing in life can be to lead
> > people to Jesus. To plant seeds, too. >
> >
>
> Amen.
>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>>Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
> >>>>
> >>>>Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
> >>>>God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
> >>>>share. :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
> >>>the big ones. :-)
> >>>
> >>>Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I'll share. Don't think I could eat all the strawberries that God can
> >>provide. :-D
> >
> >
> > But you must. ;-) [How mean can I be...]
> >
>
> No we must share. God doesn't like greed!! :-)
Okay, but what about throwing them into a vanilla pudding?
My mother sometimes had this as lunch for us when it was hot
outside.
> May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
> Deacon
:-)
Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
in most aspects.
May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
next month, next year and eternally.
Yours in Christ,
Vera
Deacon
Hello again Sister Vera,
>>>>Demetrius left Paul not God. I said before you can freely walk away
>>>
>>>>from God after you accept Him, but He will not leave you ever.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, but he left Paul "having loved this present world". If you love
>>>the world, you do not love Jesus. Wrong?
>>>
>>
>>Let's just say that you can make the mistake of putting "things" before
>>God in your life. That may or may not mean you stop loving Jesus. It
>>may just means you need a course correction in your walk.
>
>
>
> right, I would suggest it just means sinning "having loved this
> present world".
>
I thought I said that. ;-)
>
>
>>>>I know I tried to myself. He just kept after me until I came back.
>>>
>>>
>>>Maybe. That is what happened to my friend, too. She came back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Again if I had chosen not to return I would not be writting this.
>>>>I might be at home with Him. I glad I came back.
>>>
>>>
>>>I am glad about that, too, Deacon! :-) I would not have met you,
>>>otherwise. I really would have missed something.
>>>
>>
>>Flattery will get you everywhere. ;-)
>
>
> No no - I mean what I say. I really love to have found somebody
> in you with who I can talk about the Bible. Great!
>
Not to worry. I knew what you meant. I just appreciate kind words.
Thanks.
>
>>>>Don't get me wrong I'd rather be in
>>>>Heaven, but here I can still bring the gospel to others. I look at
>>>>people with different eyes since I started the ministry. The lost just
>>>>break my heart. I know their fate even if they won't accept it. If I
>>>>can be useful and yield to God, He can and does use me to bring them to
>>>>Himself. That is why I'm glad I returned to Him.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, we have a job to do. The best thing in life can be to lead
>>>people to Jesus. To plant seeds, too. >
>>>
>>Amen.
>>
>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Okay, but I get the strawberries. Amen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now wait just a minute here!!! I love strawberries. Being as how it's
>>>>>>God's garden I'm quite sure there is enough to go around. So we can
>>>>>>share. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Okay, I'll share the straberries with you. But only if I get
>>>>>the big ones. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Okay - you can have them all if you like them so much.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I'll share. Don't think I could eat all the strawberries that God can
>>>>provide. :-D
>>>
>>>
>>>But you must. ;-) [How mean can I be...]
>>>
>>
>>No we must share. God doesn't like greed!! :-)
>
>
> Okay, but what about throwing them into a vanilla pudding?
> My mother sometimes had this as lunch for us when it was hot
> outside.
>
Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
a cold day!!
>
>
>>May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
>>Deacon
>
>
> :-)
>
> Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
> in most aspects.
>
Glad to hear it.
> May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
> next month, next year and eternally.
>
Life eternal in heaven with God, is as blessed as I can get.
May the Lord keep you and bless you in all things,
Deacon
Vera Six
Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
> >>May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
> > in most aspects.
> >
>
> Glad to hear it.
It helped a lot.
May all your good wishes in Christ come true...
> > May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
> > next month, next year and eternally.
> >
>
> Life eternal in heaven with God, is as blessed as I can get.
>
> May the Lord keep you and bless you in all things,
> Deacon
>
Shalom y ahab,
Vera
:-)
Deacon
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4CEBD...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
>>Vera Six:
>>
>>Hello again Sister Vera,
>>
>>
>>
>>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
>>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
>>a cold day!!
>
>
> Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
>
Sure. All you want.
>
>
>
>>>>May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
>>>>Deacon
>>>
>>>
>>>:-)
>>>
>>>Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
>>>in most aspects.
>>>
>>
>>Glad to hear it.
>
>
> It helped a lot.
>
> May all your good wishes in Christ come true...
>
>
>>>May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
>>>next month, next year and eternally.
>>>
>>
>>Life eternal in heaven with God, is as blessed as I can get.
>>
>>May the Lord keep you and bless you in all things,
>>Deacon
>>
>
>
> Shalom y ahab,
>
> Vera
>
> :-)
>
>
>
>
eirene kai agape,
Deacon
Vera Six
> Vera Six wrote:
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F4CEBD...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >
> >>Vera Six:
> >>
> >>Hello again Sister Vera,
> >>
> >>
> <snip>
> >>
> >>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
> >>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
> >>a cold day!!
> >
> >
> > Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
> >
>
> Sure. All you want.
No, we share. :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
> >>>>Deacon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>:-)
> >>>
> >>>Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
> >>>in most aspects.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Glad to hear it.
> >
> >
> > It helped a lot.
> >
> > May all your good wishes in Christ come true...
> >
> >
> >>>May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
> >>>next month, next year and eternally.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Life eternal in heaven with God, is as blessed as I can get.
> >>
> >>May the Lord keep you and bless you in all things,
> >>Deacon
> >>
> >
> >
> > Shalom y ahab,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> > :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> eirene kai agape,
> Deacon
I trust you, Deacon. This cannot be anything bad...
Same to you... ;-)
May mercy, peace, and love be yours in abundance!
:-)
Vera
P.S.: Ecc. will have to wait until tomorrow - I am too tired
today, only slept four hours yesterday... But tomorrow there
is another day that the Lord has made, maybe... A good day
for me for Bible study.
Deacon
You're right. Not bad at all.
Translation - peace tied together closely with love.
>
> Same to you... ;-)
>
> May mercy, peace, and love be yours in abundance!
>
> :-)
>
> Vera
Shalom,
Deacon
>
> P.S.: Ecc. will have to wait until tomorrow - I am too tired
> today, only slept four hours yesterday... But tomorrow there
> is another day that the Lord has made, maybe... A good day
> for me for Bible study.
>
>
Memory verse for the day:
Matthew 11:28-30
Sweet dreams.
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F516E2A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
[snip]
> >>>>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
> >>>>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
> >>>>a cold day!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Sure. All you want.
> >
> >
> >
> > No, we share. :-)
Maybe we could have frozen strawberry dip in chocolate at our
party. :-)
ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ
I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
on them to be seen?
> >>>>>>May the day find you smiling in the joy that is Jesus,
> >>>>>>Deacon
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>:-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Somehow - yes - this has helped. I was a very good day
> >>>>>in most aspects.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Glad to hear it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>It helped a lot.
> >>>
> >>>May all your good wishes in Christ come true...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>May the Lord bless you today, tomorrow, this week, next week,
> >>>>>next month, next year and eternally.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Life eternal in heaven with God, is as blessed as I can get.
> >>>>
> >>>>May the Lord keep you and bless you in all things,
> >>>>Deacon
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Shalom y ahab,
> >>>
> >>>Vera
> >>>
> >>>:-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>eirene kai agape,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > I trust you, Deacon. This cannot be anything bad...
>
> You're right. Not bad at all.
>
> Translation - peace tied together closely with love.
Really not bad...
> > Same to you... ;-)
> >
> > May mercy, peace, and love be yours in abundance!
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Vera
>
> Shalom,
> Deacon
>
> >
> > P.S.: Ecc. will have to wait until tomorrow - I am too tired
> > today, only slept four hours yesterday... But tomorrow there
> > is another day that the Lord has made, maybe... A good day
> > for me for Bible study.
> >
> >
>
> Memory verse for the day:
> Matthew 11:28-30
>
> Sweet dreams.
:-)
Yes, that day I was really loaded...
Thanks, they were great, must have been, as I cannot remember.
Last night, however, someone took my camera and threw it heavily
against a wall, without any further reaon than to hurt me.
I was very sad about that and happy to wake up. I do not
remember if this dream was in colour this time. I think so.
Que le Dieu tout puissant te bénisse,
Vera
Deacon
> Hi Deacon again,
>
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F516E2A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>>>>>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
>>>>>>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
>>>>>>a cold day!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sure. All you want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No, we share. :-)
>>
>
> Maybe we could have frozen strawberry dip in chocolate at our
> party. :-)
>
> ضضضضضضضضضضض
>
> I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
> on them to be seen?
>
Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue. Strange or what.
God bless,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F53D5E8...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> > Hi Deacon again,
> >
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F516E2A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >>>>>>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
> >>>>>>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
> >>>>>>a cold day!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure. All you want.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>No, we share. :-)
> >>
> >
> > Maybe we could have frozen strawberry dip in chocolate at our
> > party. :-)
> >
> Cool! :-)
>
> > ضضضضضضضضضضض
> >
> > I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
> > on them to be seen?
> >
> Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
:-D
how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
at least, err...., let me think .....
For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
Yes, strange...
And who wins?
> God bless,
> Deacon
Shalom,
y mucho dinero, poco trabajo,
Vera
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F53D5E8...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> > Hi Deacon again,
> >
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F516E2A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >>>>>>Sounds good. I've got something I like better though. Dip strawberry in
> >>>>>>chocolate and freeze. Wow is that good on a hot day. It's even good on
> >>>>>>a cold day!!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Great! Can I have some of it? It is a cool day today.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Sure. All you want.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>No, we share. :-)
> >>
> >
> > Maybe we could have frozen strawberry dip in chocolate at our
> > party. :-)
> >
> Cool! :-)
>
> > ضضضضضضضضضضض
> >
> > I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
> > on them to be seen?
> >
> Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
:-D
how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
at least, err...., let me think .....
For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
Yes, strange...
Deacon
> Well, Deacon,
Yes I am thank you. And you?
Hi Vera,
<snip>
>>>ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ
>>>
>>>I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
>>>on them to be seen?
>>>
>>
>>Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
>
>
> :-D
>
> how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
> concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
> at least, err...., let me think .....
>
Pay?!? I don't think so. The best thing(s) is(are) free.
> For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
>
Like the ones in my garden.
>
<snip>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue. Strange or what.
>
>
> Yes, strange...
>
> And who wins?
>
I do. Of course!!
>
>>God bless,
>>Deacon
>
>
> Shalom,
> y mucho dinero, poco trabajo,
>
> Vera
>
>
si pero, mucho dinero y mucho trabajo por el Señor
buenos tardes y vaya con Dios,
Deacon
Vera Six
> Vera Six wrote:
> > Well, Deacon,
>
> Yes I am thank you. And you?
>
> Hi Vera,
>
> <snip>
> >>>ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ
> >>>
> >>>I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
> >>>on them to be seen?
> >>>
> >>
> >>Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
> >
> >
> > :-D
> >
> > how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
> > concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
> > at least, err...., let me think .....
> >
>
> Pay?!? I don't think so. The best thing(s) is(are) free.
Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
> > For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
> >
>
> Like the ones in my garden.
Oh - are there strawberries? Fine. For the straberry party...
> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue.
> >>Strange or what.
> >
> > Yes, strange...
> >
> > And who wins?
> >
>
> I do. Of course!!
Oh, I do not believe this. You are only dreaming of it. ;-)
> >>God bless,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > Shalom,
> > y mucho dinero, poco trabajo,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> si pero, mucho dinero y mucho trabajo por el Señor
>
> buenos tardes y vaya con Dios,
> Deacon
Buenas noches amigo mio,
y vaya todos los dias con Dios
y con mucho amor, hasta manana,
es muy tarde, soy mucho tranquilo.
Ahora no ecribo mas. Solamente
Vera
:-)
P.S.: What about writing in Spanish and leaving every second
letter out? Nobody would really notice that I do not know Spanish
at all... poco solamente pc slmne
Deacon
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F57BA23...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
>>Vera Six wrote:
>>
>>>Well, Deacon,
>>
>>Yes I am thank you. And you?
>>
>>Hi Vera,
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
>>>>>on them to be seen?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
>>>
>>>
>>>:-D
>>>
>>>how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
>>>concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
>>>at least, err...., let me think .....
>>>
>>
>>Pay?!? I don't think so. The best thing(s) is(are) free.
>
>
> Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
Why, I did!! :-)
>
>
>>>For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
>>>
>>
>>Like the ones in my garden.
>
>
> Oh - are there strawberries? Fine. For the straberry party...
>
Yes, why not.
>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue.
>>>>Strange or what.
>>>
>
>>>Yes, strange...
>>>
>>>And who wins?
>>>
>>
>>I do. Of course!!
>
>
> Oh, I do not believe this. You are only dreaming of it. ;-)
>
You betcha, my dream so I get to win. :-)
>
>>>>God bless,
>>>>Deacon
>>>
>>>
>>>Shalom,
>>>y mucho dinero, poco trabajo,
>>>
>>>Vera
>>>
>>>
>>
>>si pero, mucho dinero y mucho trabajo por el Señor
>>
>>buenos tardes y vaya con Dios,
>>Deacon
>
>
> Buenas noches amigo mio,
> y vaya todos los dias con Dios
> y con mucho amor, hasta manana,
> es muy tarde, soy mucho tranquilo.
>
> Ahora no ecribo mas. Solamente
>
> Vera
>
> :-)
>
> P.S.: What about writing in Spanish and leaving every second
> letter out? Nobody would really notice that I do not know Spanish
> at all... poco solamente pc slmne
>
No I don't think so. Someone would think your had an acronym disease.
hasta la vista y vaya con Dios,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F59606A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>>ضضضضضضضضضضض
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I do not know if these are strawberries. Are there Os plus two dots
> >>>>>on them to be seen?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Not sure but I'll buy the image none the less.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>:-D
> >>>
> >>>how much do you offer for it? I mean, it was difficult to
> >>>concentrate on the details, and the idea itself is worth
> >>>at least, err...., let me think .....
> >>>
> >>
> >>Pay?!? I don't think so. The best thing(s) is(are) free.
> >
> >
> > Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
>
> Why, I did!! :-)
Okay. Convinced. You are right again, of course. :-)
You can get the painting free.
But only if you hang it up in your living-room.
I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
> >>>For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Like the ones in my garden.
> >
> >
> > Oh - are there strawberries? Fine. For the straberry party...
> >
>
> Yes, why not.
Great.
ضضضضضضضضضضضضضضضض
I have just made a copy of the picture above. So if anybody else
is interested... (I know this is called inflation, but as it is free...)
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue.
> >>>>Strange or what.
> >>>
> >
> >>>Yes, strange...
> >>>
> >>>And who wins?
> >>>
> >>
> >>I do. Of course!!
> >
> >
> > Oh, I do not believe this. You are only dreaming of it. ;-)
> >
>
> You betcha, my dream so I get to win. :-)
Your dream... All belongs to you, nothing to me. I think
this is very unjustice. I will write a letter of complaint. Huh.
> >>>>God bless,
> >>>>Deacon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Shalom,
> >>>y mucho dinero, poco trabajo,
> >>>
> >>>Vera
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>si pero, mucho dinero y mucho trabajo por el Seٌor
> >>
> >>buenos tardes y vaya con Dios,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > Buenas noches amigo mio,
> > y vaya todos los dias con Dios
> > y con mucho amor, hasta manana,
> > es muy tarde, soy mucho tranquilo.
> >
> > Ahora no ecribo mas. Solamente
> >
> > Vera
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > P.S.: What about writing in Spanish and leaving every second
> > letter out? Nobody would really notice that I do not know Spanish
> > at all... poco solamente pc slmne
> >
>
> No I don't think so. Someone would think your had an acronym disease.
Have you ever read Welch? You should... It looks exactly like
this, only the words are much longer. I'll go and bring you some
occasionally...
> hasta la vista y vaya con Dios,
> Deacon
Hasta luego, y siempre vaya con Dios tambien,
Vera
Deacon
<snip>
>>>Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
>>
>>Why, I did!! :-)
>
>
> Okay. Convinced. You are right again, of course. :-)
>
> You can get the painting free.
>
> But only if you hang it up in your living-room.
>
> I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>
No thank you, I have lots of those.
>
>>>>>For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Like the ones in my garden.
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh - are there strawberries? Fine. For the straberry party...
>>>
>>
>>Yes, why not.
>
>
> Great.
>
> 种种种种种种种种
>
> I have just made a copy of the picture above. So if anybody else
> is interested... (I know this is called inflation, but as it is free...)
>
>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue.
>>>>>>Strange or what.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, strange...
>>>>>
>>>>>And who wins?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I do. Of course!!
>>>
>>>
>>>Oh, I do not believe this. You are only dreaming of it. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>You betcha, my dream so I get to win. :-)
>
>
> Your dream... All belongs to you, nothing to me. I think
> this is very unjustice. I will write a letter of complaint. Huh.
>
I forward you letter to the committee. Oh BTW I'm the committee.
>
>
>
> Hasta luego, y siempre vaya con Dios tambien,
>
> Vera
>
>
si, si.
God bless,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5AB2A6...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Hello Vera,
>
> <snip>
> >>>Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
> >>
> >>Why, I did!! :-)
> >
> >
> > Okay. Convinced. You are right again, of course. :-)
> >
> > You can get the painting free.
> >
> > But only if you hang it up in your living-room.
> >
> > I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
> >
>
> No thank you, I have lots of those.
paintings? Nails? Strawberries? ;-)
> >>>>>For me, those are strawberries. Very sweet ones.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Like the ones in my garden.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Oh - are there strawberries? Fine. For the straberry party...
> >>>
> >>
> >>Yes, why not.
> >
> >
> > Great.
> >
> > 种种种种种种种种
> >
> > I have just made a copy of the picture above. So if anybody else
> > is interested... (I know this is called inflation, but as it is free...)
> >
> >
> >>>><snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>Hey I have dreams without pictures at times only dialogue.
> >>>>>>Strange or what.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Yes, strange...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And who wins?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>I do. Of course!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Oh, I do not believe this. You are only dreaming of it. ;-)
> >>>
> >>
> >>You betcha, my dream so I get to win. :-)
> >
> >
> > Your dream... All belongs to you, nothing to me. I think
> > this is very unjustice. I will write a letter of complaint. Huh.
> >
>
> I forward you letter to the committee. Oh BTW I'm the committee.
Dear Mr Committee,
Let me tell you that you are very unjust. I think it is unfair that
you have all and I have nothing. You have dreams, dialogues,
the strawberries, even the white colour is reserved for you. And
you are always right. And now it is even your turn. That is very
unfair, very, really.
Sincerely,
Google
> > Hasta luego, y siempre vaya con Dios tambien,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> >
>
> si, si.
>
> God bless,
> Deacon
God bless you, too,
Vera
Canys y neb a'm caffo i, a gaiff fywyd, ac a feddianna ewyllys da gan yr
ARGLWYDD.
Vera
CBrown7281
>From: "Vera Six" ver...@t-online.de
>I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>No thank you, I have lots of those.
How about a hammer?
"If I had a hammer. I'd hammer in the morning, I'd hammer in the evening, all
over this land..."
Sorry, I tried sooo hard to resist, but alas...In the
end , my creative side of my brain won out...
Cal...
PS I'd rather be a hammer than a nail, yes I would, I truely would...
Vera Six
> >Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
> >From: "Vera Six" ver...@t-online.de
>
> >I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>
> >No thank you, I have lots of those.
>
> How about a hammer?
Great idea! Nobody thought of that. I wonder how Deacon
would get the nails into the wall without one ... press them
deeply... LOL
> "If I had a hammer. I'd hammer in the morning, I'd hammer in the
> evening, all over this land..."
Ha, ha - If you had... But you have not. Or have you?
> Sorry, I tried sooo hard to resist, but alas...In the
> end , my creative side of my brain won out...
> Cal...
>
> PS I'd rather be a hammer than a nail, yes I would, I truely would...
El condor pasa...? No pasa nada.
Vera
- friend of people keeping hammers and nails together -
CBrown7281
>
Yo poder no comprende, ayudar mi el stupido . Por favor?
Gracias, Calboa
Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
within you, with gentleness and respect...
Deacon
> Hello Deacon,
>
> "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5AB2A6...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
>
>>Hello Vera,
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>>Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
>>>>
>>>>Why, I did!! :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Okay. Convinced. You are right again, of course. :-)
>>>
>>>You can get the painting free.
>>>
>>>But only if you hang it up in your living-room.
>>>
>>>I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>>>
>>
>>No thank you, I have lots of those.
>
>
> paintings? Nails? Strawberries? ;-)
>
All three!!!
Dear Google,
From the committee, so noted and summarily dismissed. The committee
has spoken so shall it be.
Feel free to appeal to the next Higher Authority. The committee defers
in all things to His Will.
Sincerely,
The Committee
>
>
>>>Hasta luego, y siempre vaya con Dios tambien,
>>>
>>>Vera
>>>
>>>
>>
>>si, si.
>>
>>God bless,
>>Deacon
>
>
> God bless you, too,
>
> Vera
>
> Canys y neb a'm caffo i, a gaiff fywyd, ac a feddianna ewyllys da gan yr
> ARGLWYDD.
>
>
I hope that was nice.
God bless you and keep you,
Deacon
Deacon
>>Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
>>From: "Vera Six" ver...@t-online.de
>
>
>>I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>
>
>>No thank you, I have lots of those.
>
>
> How about a hammer?
>
> "If I had a hammer. I'd hammer in the morning, I'd hammer in the evening, all
> over this land..."
> Sorry, I tried sooo hard to resist, but alas...In the
> end , my creative side of my brain won out...
You go bro...
> Cal...
>
> PS I'd rather be a hammer than a nail, yes I would, I truely would...
Amen!
CBrown7281
>You go bro...
Thank you my Fellow servant...
Cal...
Deacon
>>Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
>>From: Deacon
>
>
>>You go bro...
>
>
> Thank you my Fellow servant...
>
You're most welcome my brother in Christ...
Shalom,
Deacon
Deacon
> "CBrown7281" <cbrow...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:20030908161352...@mb-m04.aol.com...
>
>>>Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
>>>From: "Vera Six" ver...@t-online.de
>>
>>>I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
>>
>>>No thank you, I have lots of those.
>>
>> How about a hammer?
>
>
> Great idea! Nobody thought of that. I wonder how Deacon
> would get the nails into the wall without one ... press them
> deeply... LOL
>
>
With my hard head of course. ;-D
Be blessed,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5D002C...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
LOL - You seem to have even more criminal energy than me...
No, I would not really like this idea...
It will ruin the wall, maybe... ;-)
> Be blessed,
> Deacon
Be blessed, too,
Vera
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5CEF7A...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> Vera Six wrote:
> > Hello Deacon,
> >
> > "Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5AB2A6...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
> >
> >>Hello Vera,
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>>Right, but who said this(these) is(are) one of the best thing(s)?
> >>>>
> >>>>Why, I did!! :-)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Okay. Convinced. You are right again, of course. :-)
> >>>
> >>>You can get the painting free.
> >>>
> >>>But only if you hang it up in your living-room.
> >>>
> >>>I could send you a nail if you do not have any.
> >>>
> >>
> >>No thank you, I have lots of those.
> >
> >
> > paintings? Nails? Strawberries? ;-)
> >
>
> All three!!!
Three paintings? I only know of two.
Dear Mr Committee,
I will take it under consideration in my next prayer.
Sincerely,
> >>>Hasta luego, y siempre vaya con Dios tambien,
> >>>
> >>>Vera
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>si, si.
> >>
> >>God bless,
> >>Deacon
> >
> >
> > God bless you, too,
> >
> > Vera
> >
> > Canys y neb a'm caffo i, a gaiff fywyd, ac a feddianna ewyllys da gan yr
> > ARGLWYDD.
> >
> >
>
> I hope that was nice.
Very nice - that is really Welsh. I have never seen a funnier language...
I wonder how they can pronounce this.
> God bless you and keep you,
> Deacon
Same to you, dear Brother.
Have a great day again in the Lord,
Vera
Deacon
No remember I study martial arts, drive nail with one hit from head.
Must see nail as already being in wall. yyyyyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh
whoa, where am I??? Man that's gotta hurt. Oweeee. Poor nail.
:-D
Another day another knot.
Be blessed,
Deacon
CBrown7281
>Must see nail as already being in wall. yyyyyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh
I hope it was not a finishing nail...or the wall was not made out of "crick"
, which is concrete made to look like brick...
Anyway you look at it, that is really gonna leave a mark...
Deacon
>>Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
>>From: Deacon a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God
>
>
>
>
>>Must see nail as already being in wall. yyyyyyyeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh
>
>
> I hope it was not a finishing nail...or the wall was not made out of "crick"
> , which is concrete made to look like brick...
>
> Anyway you look at it, that is really gonna leave a mark...
On the nail or the wall?? ;-)
CBrown7281
>From: Deacon a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God
>On the nail or the wall?? ;-)
Which indeed?
With all the cheap alloys and Gyp-board on the market...Who's to say?
A great thought for us all to remember :
Christians are much like a grade 8 bolt or a high grade nail...
They are firm in their tasks, and galvanized to encourage action to preserve
integrity...
Vera Six
> >El condor pasa...? No pasa nada.
> >
>
> Yo poder no comprende, ayudar mi el stupido . Por favor?
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrriba!
Con mucho gusto, muchacho. Pero por que? Su espanol
es mejor que el mio.
> Gracias, Calboa
De nada, Verana (no "Veranda")
> Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
> within you, with gentleness and respect...
Si, si...
CBrown7281
>Con mucho gusto, muchacho. Pero por que? Su espanol
>es mejor que el mio.
Tu a simpatico... Senorita Verana
Calboa...
Deacon
>>Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
>>From: Deacon a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God
>>Date: 9/9/03 5:48 PM Central
>
>
>>On the nail or the wall?? ;-)
>
>
> Which indeed?
> With all the cheap alloys and Gyp-board on the market...Who's to say?
>
> A great thought for us all to remember :
>
> Christians are much like a grade 8 bolt or a high grade nail...
> They are firm in their tasks, and galvanized to encourage action to preserve
> integrity...
Amen bro.
Prov 20:7
7 The righteous man walks in his integrity;
His children are blessed after him.
NKJV
Shalom,
Deacon
Vera Six
"Deacon" <a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3F5E2D92...@ofTheMostHigh.God...
Unbelievable - what man can do, they fly to the moon, they make
pudding out of pulver, they ... Oh, let me see, this must hurt...
I feel pity with you.
Take those plasters, please: #######################
Is there anything else I could do for you? ;-)
B.b., B.D.
bedoda-padi...
Vera
CBrown7281
>From: Deacon a_Se...@ofTheMostHigh.God
>Prov 20:7
>7 The righteous man walks in his integrity;
>His children are blessed after him.
>NKJV
Amen, Deacon...
Shalom to you as well..
Vera Six
"CBrown7281" <cbrow...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:20030909195021...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Bible Study Question #2 from you friendly neighborhood Deacon
> >From: "Vera Six" ver...@t-online.de
>
> >Con mucho gusto, muchacho. Pero por que? Su espanol
> >es mejor que el mio.
>
> Tu a simpatico... Senorita Verana
Tu muy mas... Senor Calboa.
Buenas noches,
Verana
>
> Calboa...
>
>
>
> Be always ready to give an answer to every man about the hope that lies
> within you, with gentleness and respect...
Si, si...