life and death : a matter of...
pablo
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any
tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
die."
romans 5: 12-14
12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there
was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit
commandment of God, as Adam did.
20God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they
were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness
became more abundant.
21So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now
God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with
God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
romans 10:8-13
8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
"The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
11As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be
disappointed. "
12Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same
Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
peac3e.
pablo
sensible2me
"pablo" <ba...@sushi.co.jp> wrote in message
news:2d487387.03070...@posting.google.com...
> genesis 2: 16-17
> 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any
> tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the
> knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
> die."
>
> romans 5: 12-14
> 12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
> brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
>
It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE. God
approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil and become
well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both
Man would not recognize peace if he did not know war. Or love if he did not
know hate. How would we learn to appreciate if God did not want us to learn
of his creation?
God did warn that as soon as we ate the knowledge of evil we as souls would
surely die for the goodness of God would be confusing and the soul of man
would have to find his way back to Gods goodness and it wouldn't be easy.He
would have to go through hell and high water to get there.
Mercy is always an offering of fruit of the tree of goodness.
> 13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there
> was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
>
sensible2me:
Yes, people sinned, it is the nature of evil and it is the other side of
Goodness. We can all have both or give up one and take up with the good
side of God.
> 14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit
> commandment of God, as Adam did.
>
> 20God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they
> were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness
> became more abundant.
sensible2me:
Goodness.....Light always overrules the darkness in man. Man can get caught
up in evil but goodness will surely outlive the death of goodness tha man
has suffered.
> 21So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now
> God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with
> God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
>
> romans 10:8-13
> 8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
> preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
> "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
> 9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
> your heart that God raised him from the dead,
sensible2me:
Death is a change from one existence to another. Jesus coming to earth was
death in itself. Jesus lived on earth where he was born to live in death on
earth where many people are just plain dead on earth from an overabundance
of too much evil. People think it, live it and breathe it. Jesus in himself
was the perfect well balanced tree of knowledge knowing both good and evil
and saw through the evil that he could bring the goodness of heaven on earth
and that we could see the goodness in him and become the goodness of God.
It is just as possible to be good as it is evil. Their is a balance but we
often don't see the good we still propose that evil is greater than goodness
and fall smack into it. .
you will be saved.
sensible2me:
Everytime we think not of God's goodness or think not of love, mercy, faith
and hope then call upon Jesus to help and he will save us from our getting
too deep or over our head in the evils of life.
> 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
> God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
> 11As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be
> disappointed. "
sensible2me:
Amen.. I beleive in his mind.......He will give me his thoughts to help me
save myself from making evil decisions. I believe in his heart and he will
give me his heart that I can use to help save me from breaking mine. I
believe in his body that he will give me his body (spirit body) to help me
save myself from drowning in pitfull sorrows of ignorance for my lack of
knowing the better side of goodness . I believe in his walk of life and what
he went through here on earth cause he went through hell while on earth too.
I beleive many things about Christ and it is never a shame that I believe in
trust, hope in myself and desire to be all that God intends for me to be
through the wholeness of Christ Jesus caue he's been here and done it and
says you go through it too and I'll be here when you need me. . .just call
my name.
> 12Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same
> Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
>
Amen
> 13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
>
sensible2me:
Amen and will call to be saved everytime I don't understand something or
get in too deep in the pit
( Oh gee something just came to me as I wrote the word "pit." I hope you
don't mind if I share. Pits come from fruit. Fruit comes from the tree of
knowledge of good and evil, sometimes we think we only have the pit, and
something I read earlier today in a book about Foods that are good for you
and food that are bad in the Dr's office. . Well I was reading about plums
in this book and it said that the pit of the plum had arsenic in it. That we
should not swallow the pit for it was poison and to call the poison center
if we somehow consumed too many pits.
WELL....It all comes together now as the pit of the fruit of evil is arsen
and poisonous to our souls and if we consumed too many of the pitfalls in
life we need to call on God for help for he is the poison control center.
I apologize if I typed to much for you to read. I get started and it just
comes.
God does Bless in many ways.
> peac3e.
> pablo
twice-born child
"sensible2me" <mca...@mail.advertisnet.com> wrote in message
news:vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com...
> sensible2me:
> It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE.
TBC> I thought this was the original sin.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou
mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt
surely die.
(Genesis 2:16-17 KJV)
"sensible2me" <mca...@mail.advertisnet.com> wrote in message
news:vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com...
>God approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil and
become
> well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both
TBC> God *never* approves of sin.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and
so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)
sensible2me
"twice-born child" <zephaniah...@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:3f0413e5$0$49442$a04e...@nnrp.fuse.net...
>
> "sensible2me" <mca...@mail.advertisnet.com> wrote in message
> news:vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> > sensible2me:
> > It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE.
>
> TBC> I thought this was the original sin.
> And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden
thou
> mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
> shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt
> surely die.
>
Hi tbc,
I know the sternness of the commandment for the commandment is still in
effect, for if we.... even today eat of the tree of knowledge and taste only
the evil side we suffer from too much of the negative and get caught up in
the evils.
We get caught up in "Suffering" and suffering is a form of death in
itself. As soon as Adam (soul) tasted the evil fruit,he had only known the
good fruit, the tree of life and all the other trees in the garden he became
"ashamed" and shame is a 'result' from eating the "shame" fruit of the tree
of knowledge.... it was in that moment that he died... when he was shamed
and tried to cover his shame. with loin cloth. Which is a long story but
has to do with our creativity and how we use the tree of knowledge to create
in our life.
Too much shame (fruit) is not good or is it good to pick the fruit of shame?
And should we be ashamed (fruit) doesn't God offer us the opposite fruit...
"forgiveness?"
The bible speaks about "eat" throughout its entire content and the fruit we
eat is of THAT tree. So is imperative that we eat the good fruit of the tree
of knowledge and not stay so consumed in evil everywhere.
How can we blame Adam for what we eat? When the tree still stands and we can
pluck whatever we desire?
pablo
> news:2d487387.03070...@posting.google.com...
> > genesis 2: 16-17
> > 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any
> > tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the
> > knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
> > die."
> >
> > romans 5: 12-14
> > 12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
> > brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
> >
> sensible2me:
> It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE.
i might suggest to you that the personal being God had commanded adam
not to eat of this tree -- a world of choices and all of them free --
with the exception of one -- and this came with a warning -- eat of it
and die.
death to those who hold to the transmigration of souls might see this
as an natural part of the world order -- escaping the cycle once one
has acheived such.
but, the biblical message is that the chains of sin went on humanity
in this one act. it is bondage to sin which has its logical result in
death -- in all aspects of the human.
upwardly dead -- seperation from knowing God
inwardly dead -- seperation from knowing our true self
outwardly dead -- alienated from our true purpose and the true depth
of the beauty of human relatonships.
in God's mercy -- we know the sustaining power of God (a being of
which we are not a part, but to whom we owe our breath to breath
existence).
in God's mercy -- we still have a sense of being and self -- but not
as we were made to be originally -- we are cut off from the vital
connection to God by sin. and just as a limb cut off from a tree may
appear to have life for a season -- it is no longer connected to its
source of life, nor its purpose.
in God's mercy -- we still can know the warmth of human love -- but
the beauty of such is marred beyond repair -- and of ourselves we have
no ability to bear the fruit of human relationships with the depth and
wonder that reflects the eternal relationship which has always been
and existed between the father, son, and holy spirit.
>God
> approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil and become
> well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both
> Man would not recognize peace if he did not know war. Or love if he did not
> know hate. How would we learn to appreciate if God did not want us to learn
> of his creation?
there is some valitidy in this thinking -- on this side of the garden
of eden. but, is it true that adam and eve were incapable of knowing
God, knowing God's goodness, knowing God's love, knowing peace,
knowing love, knowing light -- before such things existed in their
experience. in a dualistic universe such notions of the need for
darkness to appreciate or comprehend the light make sense -- but in an
creation which produced exponential growth in all of its design - such
a notion as: "one must know evil to understand what good is" is not
truly logical.
> God did warn that as soon as we ate the knowledge of evil we as souls would
> surely die for the goodness of God would be confusing and the soul of man
> would have to find his way back to Gods goodness and it wouldn't be easy.He
> would have to go through hell and high water to get there.
> Mercy is always an offering of fruit of the tree of goodness.
the ancient texts of God's interactions with humanity paint a
different picture. the hell and high water certainly is there -- as
people cut off from knowing God and living in a world of evil
(non-abstract evil, but rather personal evil) have found all of
creation marred and suffering abuse. much as a vase would suffer
abuse if it were being used for a hammer.
the ancient texts however present a God who takes upon himself the
work of rescuing those who are unable to rescue themselves -- see
God's covenant with abraham as an example.
>
> > 13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there
> > was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
> >
> sensible2me:
> Yes, people sinned, it is the nature of evil and it is the other side of
> Goodness. We can all have both or give up one and take up with the good
> side of God.
this still presupposes that evil must exist in order for goodness to
exist. at the very least you seem to be implying that unless there is
evil there will be no knowing of good.
again, those who were sent out by Jesus as ambassadors of the good
news of his kingdom wrote and taught that "there is no one who seeks
God, there are none who do righteous, we are all born slaves to sin
which results in death.
keep in mind that christianity affirms the totality of the person. we
are flesh, soul, and spirit -- and not merely spirit, or merely flesh,
or merely solipists perceiving the world as we will through our souls.
the whole package is subject to death in sin and the whole package is
given redemption in the work of Christ upon the cross.
>
> > 14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit
> > commandment of God, as Adam did.
> >
> > 20God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they
> > were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness
> > became more abundant.
>
> sensible2me:
> Goodness.....Light always overrules the darkness in man. Man can get caught
> up in evil but goodness will surely outlive the death of goodness tha man
> has suffered.
true light is much more powerful than darkness -- though after the
garden -- we are not light bearers -- or reflectors as the moon.
instead we are blind slaves in utter darkness. what may feel to be
true -- become increasingly clear to those who walk along the path of
righteousness. it is not the goodness of humanity however that is
spoken of in the verse you commented upon. if you look -- just
carefully -- it says that God gave laws to expose the utter fallen and
helpless condition of humanity -- and it is not mankind's goodness
that increases -- but the patience and kindness of God which increases
-- grace.
>
> > 21So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now
> > God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with
> > God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
> >
> > romans 10:8-13
> > 8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
> > preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
> > "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
> > 9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
> > your heart that God raised him from the dead,
>
> sensible2me:
> Death is a change from one existence to another. Jesus coming to earth was
> death in itself. Jesus lived on earth where he was born to live in death on
> earth where many people are just plain dead on earth from an overabundance
> of too much evil.
yes, the natural order of growth which God initiated in the garden and
upholds by his power insures that seeds of evil have produced an
overabundance of too much evil.
>People think it, live it and breathe it.
in all of my visions and dreams from God -- the world is always a most
filthy place -- beyond what i could imagine. you are right -- we
think it, live it, breathe it -- and i often say we track in on the
carpet of our experiences everywhere we go.
>Jesus in himself
> was the perfect well balanced tree of knowledge knowing both good and evil
> and saw through the evil that he could bring the goodness of heaven on earth
> and that we could see the goodness in him and become the goodness of God.
this has a name -- it is called the moral example theory of the
antonement -- a good google search might be enlightening.
> It is just as possible to be good as it is evil.
again, according to the wisdom of the ancient texts -- it is not.
>Their is a balance but we
> often don't see the good we still propose that evil is greater than goodness
> and fall smack into it. .
balance is always a good word -- though in a dualistic sense i refrain
from it - it is not as holistic as the biblical account 0f the 3 way
flow of life -- inward, upward, and outward. genesis reflects this
exponential model for the way life was intended to be -- cultivated by
humans yes, but unto abundance in all matters.
>
> you will be saved.
>
> sensible2me:
> Everytime we think not of God's goodness or think not of love, mercy, faith
> and hope then call upon Jesus to help and he will save us from our getting
> too deep or over our head in the evils of life.
do you suppose the God of the Old Testament is one God and the God of
the New Testament is another?
>
> > 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
> > God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
> > 11As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be
> > disappointed. "
>
> sensible2me:
> Amen.. I beleive in his mind.......He will give me his thoughts to help me
> save myself from making evil decisions. I believe in his heart and he will
> give me his heart that I can use to help save me from breaking mine. I
> believe in his body that he will give me his body (spirit body) to help me
> save myself from drowning in pitfull sorrows of ignorance for my lack of
> knowing the better side of goodness . I believe in his walk of life and what
> he went through here on earth cause he went through hell while on earth too.
> I beleive many things about Christ and it is never a shame that I believe in
> trust, hope in myself and desire to be all that God intends for me to be
> through the wholeness of Christ Jesus caue he's been here and done it and
> says you go through it too and I'll be here when you need me. . .just call
> my name.
as per what source do you know this is what Jesus has said or is
saying? an inner witness or a is there something of the ancients we
might look to for such wisdom as you have presented?
>
> > 12Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same
> > Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
> >
> Amen
>
> > 13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
sorry to cut this short -- i must run -- i will continue if you wish?
peac3e.
pablo
twice-born child
The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil is a historic fact, a real tree,
in a real garden. You seem to want to make *everything* in the bible some
sort of allegory but none the less Adam did eat and mankind fell into sin.
Adam was a real person, not just a soul. The problem is that in twisting
scriptures around to expound your philosophy you water down the gospel of
Jesus Christ. This is a friendly warning to you, the second one, try to
study the word of God under a good bible teacher who can teach you the
basics of the Christian faith.
~~~ {tbc}
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
But Jesus said, but "Not Everyone that saith Lord Lord.......only those who
do the will of my Father in heaven"
"If thou would enter life KEEP the commandments"
sensible2me
> > > "sensible2me" <mca...@mail.advertisnet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > >God approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil
> and
> > > become
> > > > well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both
> > >
> > > TBC> God *never* approves of sin.
> > >
Who created the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Who created good? Who
created evil?
Who created you? Who created me? Who created all things?
Do we both not eat of the tree of knowledge?
Where does knowledge come from? Isn't knowledge *fruit*? Doesn't knowledge
or lack of good proper knowledge *fruit of God* (law) prepare the way to
action?
I've made mistakes in my life...amen. Why? Cause I did not partake of
proper knowledge *fruit*
Do I learn from my mistakes. Yes....I do, but only when I change my mental
eating habits and stop or repent as John said in Matt3: 8. Christ often
spoke of the fruit of righteousness. It is not apples and oranges as we know
fruit. It is indeed knowledge which if we had the knowledge and it is ours
for the plucking cause Jesus said we could all become as Jesus ask us to
become only through the fruit of good, and it is plenty.
Why do you sin tbc? Is it because you want too? Or is it because you don't
know any BETTER way and haven't tasted the fruit of righteousness? I say
that to myself as well so please don't take it like I'm pounding your skin
and bruising your fruit. . I've been called a fruitcake and have called
people fruitcakes but to me thats a compliment for in me are many kinds of
bits and pieces of fruit both good and evil all wrapped up in one soul.
. I've tasted both sides and admit it and have experienced both and I now
know that the good of God is greater and far more interesting than any evil
fruit I could partake of that would cause me to take a less than good
action. . The next time you see an actual fruitcake remember it could be
you.
> > >
> > > Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
> and
> > > so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
> > >
Sin passes......... death passes and life begins only through the gate to
the garden of eden. The tree of life is also given that we eat thereof. IF
you eat plenty of fruit of righteousness don't you become what you eat? Or
is that not real?
When there is a famine in the land is it about food *knowledge* on your
kitchen table or is it about food *knowledge on your spiritual table?
God prepares a feast for us always and we must come and eat of the fruit of
righteousness.
> > > (Romans 5:12 KJV)
> > >
> > >
>
>
> The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil is a historic fact, a real
tree,
> in a real garden.
sensible2me:
I don't think I said the tree of knowledge was not real? I don't think I
said that their is not a real garden that we don't all have to tend to.
Do you pluck weeds? I know you have some kernals of truth growing in your
garden? I know you partake of the fruit of God and I know you
have a vineyard. I know you are rich in the fruits of the spirit so tell me
how did I say it is not real?
You seem to want to make *everything* in the bible some
> sort of allegory.
sensible2me:
Everything in the bible began in a invisible world that results in a
physical world. I see things in spirit where the invisible is visible to me
and it is sometimes hard to deal with people who only see with physical eyes
and do not know the beauty of the invisible spirtual world of Spirit. . If
I were to describe to you the love of God I could only say look with your
inner eyes and see him standing right there beside you encouraging you to
have faith, hope and love in everything you do.
.
but none the less Adam did eat and mankind fell into sin.
> Adam was a real person, not just a soul.
sensible2me:
I think tbc you are a soul and not a real person but a real soul who
inhabits a real temporary body but is a fulltime soul forever.. You see the
man is more important than the soul. I see the soul as more important than
the man.
If God created all things in the beginning and called your soul Adam and
your mind (Eve) as your helpmate to help you through the passage from death
(fall) to life (rise) wouldn't it make sense that you are responsible for
what you eat and not someone else? I can't make you eat anything you are
not willing to digest and that is the truth of spirit. I can only share my
fruit as you do yours.
The problem is that in twisting
> scriptures around to expound your philosophy you water down the gospel of
> Jesus Christ.
sensible2me:
I would never *water* down Jesus Christ. I do not have the power to water
down anything but only drink as it is given to me.
And btw isn't water used in the bible just as you portrayed it to me. Were
you speaking of actual water or were you speaking of invisible water that is
actually real but in a spirit sense? You say allegories don't cut the
mustard? And when you have mountains to climb are they real? A mountain of
faith you won't see with physical eyes but the mountains are real.
This is a friendly warning to you, the second one, try to
> study the word of God under a good bible teacher who can teach you the
> basics of the Christian faith.
>
sensible2me:
Been there and done that and fought like the devil just like you are, been a
baptist, a pentecost an assembly of God. Long story!.
One day I begged and asked God for direction of which denomination was his
favorite.
I got an answer in a big way and to this day He has given me fish to eat
along with the fruit of goodness.
Thanks for the warning but I shall always trust God and find his goodness in
everything. I couldn't find the goodness of God there cause it was so
negative all the time. Except at the end of a service and God would call on
me to get out of there and follow him. Long story too!
Take care and love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
Love ya too tbc and I can still consider you as friend even if I don't take
your warning to find God in a church building where someone else can teach
me better than HE.
> ~~~ {tbc}
>
>
>
pablo
> "pablo" <ba...@sushi.co.jp> wrote in message
> > 13For "Anyone who calls on the name of >the Lord will be saved."
that is true. Jesus was completely honest when he said this:
>
> But Jesus said, but "Not Everyone that saith Lord Lord.......only those who
> do the will of my Father in heaven"
matthew 17
A WARNING AGAINST FALSE PROPHETS
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
*** notice the false prophet comes in sheep's clothing -- in every
appearance a believer in Christ, but inwardly they are ferocisous
wolves. to stick with this shepherd's analogy -- there are some who
come among the sheep, appear to be sheep, but their motives are not to
follow the shepherd or to be a part of the flock. instead, they seek
to devour sheep and look at the sheep as a wooley buffet on 4 legs.
HOW TO RECOGNIZE THE WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING
16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears
good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear
bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that
does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus,
by their fruit you will recognize them.
***the overwhelming evidence is not appearance, or confessions made,
but in the fruit that is produced by these false prophets who come
among the sheep to steal, kill, and destroy.
THE FATE OF THE FALSE PROPHETS
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom
of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in
heaven.
***as Jesus has just noted, the wolves in sheep's clothing appear to
be sheep in every respect, and yet, they do not produce the fruit of
life, instead they produce fruit which will expose them for what they
really are. bearing fruit in the christian life is a life that does
the will of the Father in heaven. it is not what a person professes,
or what goes into a person that defiles them, but rather, it is what
proceeds from their hearts -- merely saying "Lord, Lord,' lacks
something doesn't it?
if you notice romans 10 speaks of the heart and the tongue. a
confession of the mouth from the heart is a saving faith, for it is
from the heart -- and salvation is first and foremost an inside job.
fruit of the heart will bear this out.
so, to erroneously apply this as something antithetical to the clear
call of faith and belief -- which the Bible has taught is more than a
mere intellectual ascent -- for even the demons have a knowledge of
the existence of God -- and they tremble. to believe in Jesus for
salvation comes by faith and faith comes by the hearing of the
message. the resultant grace manifested in the heart is the work of
God.
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away
from me, you evildoers!'
***jannes and jambres from the courts of pharoh are our model for
understanding this phenomenon -- for they countered the miracles of
moses -- but were they of God? were they doing the works of God or
speaking the prophecy of God? no.
many false teachers have come and many will come. working signs and
wonders. professing to be sheep -- but inside they are wolves hungry
for one thing -- leg of lamb.
>
> "If thou would enter life KEEP the commandments"
***again you have excised one line from the mouth of our Lord and i
assume you mean to make a doctrinal statement based upon this
discourse with the rich man. include all that Jesus spoke to the
young man. are all called to sell everything, and give to the poor,
and then follow Jesus?
as we have been taught by the holy apostle paul -- the law was given
so that sin might increase -- but where sin increased grace abounded
all the more.
he also taught us quite clearly that the law was added to the promise
of abraham's seed so that sin might be exposed.
the law and the commandments have no saving power, if they did then
there would have been no need for Christ and the cross.
instead, if you read the account honestly, you see that only one thing
stood between the rich man and life. it was that which stood between
him and following Jesus.
John 17
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 2"Father,
the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
For you granted him authority over all people that *he might give
eternal life to all those you have given him*. 3*Now this is eternal
life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom you have sent*.
romans 10:8-13
8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
"The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
11As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be
disappointed. "
12Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same
Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
why argue with paul?
peac3e.
pablo
sensible2me
"pablo" <ba...@sushi.co.jp> wrote in message
news:2d487387.03070...@posting.google.com...
> "sensible2me" <mca...@mail.advertisnet.com> wrote in message
news:<vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com>...
> > "pablo" <ba...@sushi.co.jp> wrote in message
> > news:2d487387.03070...@posting.google.com...
> > > genesis 2: 16-17
> > > 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any
> > > tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the
> > > knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
> > > die."
> > >
> > > romans 5: 12-14
> > > 12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
> > > brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
> > >
> > sensible2me:
plenty more good fruit we have yet to try. For sin shalt not have dominion
over you when grace is more sufficient.
> > It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE.
>
> i might suggest to you that the personal being God had commanded adam
> not to eat of this tree -- a world of choices and all of them free --
> with the exception of one -- and this came with a warning -- eat of it
> and die.
>
sensible2me:
One would think that as soon as Adam tasted the fruit he would be instantly
dead. He was but in a spiritual sense. It cost him dearly.... for he was
then alone and knew not the Spirit of God. (Life)
> death to those who hold to the transmigration of souls might see this
> as an natural part of the world order -- escaping the cycle once one
> has acheived such.
sensible2me:
The word "transmigration" sounds cold and without goal & purpose. God
created a plan with His goals and purpose in mind and every soul will meet
God's goals and find God's purpose. It is God's will that we do so. God's
will be done. There is no else.
>
> but, the biblical message is that the chains of sin went on humanity
> in this one act. it is bondage to sin which has its logical result in
> death -- in all aspects of the human.
>
sensible2me:
I agree that we tax ourselves with an overabundance of shame, guilt,
neglecting love in many shapes and forms and this holds us in bondage to
extra baggage that God would just soon have us hand over to him for we don't
know what to do with such but wallow in it in self pity.
I have to ask this question. If all things were made in the beginning
wouldn't that include your soul? Was your soul created by God? Was the
garden of Eden created for souls or just a man?
> upwardly dead -- seperation from knowing God
> inwardly dead -- seperation from knowing our true self
> outwardly dead -- alienated from our true purpose and the true depth
> of the beauty of human relatonships.
>
sensible2me:
I totally agree wholeheartedly. And what is our excuse? Can we actually
blame Adam for our choices of dead ways? Your saying Adam gave us the
choices of good and evil and if he hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge
we would only know good choices?
.
> in God's mercy --
sensible2me:
Another fruit off the same tree!
we know the sustaining power of God (a being of
> which we are not a part, but to whom we owe our breath to breath
> existence).
>
sensible2me:
Breath is a part of God. Did you mean apart from instead of a part from? The
only separation from God to me is death away from the spirit of God. Not
knowing or having any desire to know the beauty of God.
> in God's mercy -- we still have a sense of being and self -- but not
> as we were made to be originally -- we are cut off from the vital
> connection to God by sin. and just as a limb cut off from a tree may
> appear to have life for a season -- it is no longer connected to its
> source of life, nor its purpose.
>
sensible2me:
I agree... it is not God that cuts us off it is ourselves who wallow in
un-becoming ways.
But even in wallowing God is still present always will be, we just overcome
ourselves with unforgiveness or some other form of evil.
> in God's mercy -- we still can know the warmth of human love -- but
> the beauty of such is marred beyond repair -- and of ourselves we have
> no ability to bear the fruit of human relationships with the depth and
> wonder that reflects the eternal relationship which has always been
> and existed between the father, son, and holy spirit.
Sensible2me:
Where is your hope? It is hanging on a tree, pluck from the same tree that
Jesus ate from and see if the same fruit that Jesus ate could also become
you as it did HIM.
Many people cut themselves short from God by indicating that God is
incapable of making them holy so they do not sacrifice their evil fruits and
think this is the only thing LIFE had to offer them and they will just
settle for the lesser side. (death). WE all have a Father (God) we all are
sons of the father and the Holy Spirit dwells within every child of God so
what is our excuse? Laziness maybe or the devil told me I couldnt?
> >God
> > approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil and
become
> > well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both
> > Man would not recognize peace if he did not know war. Or love if he did
not
> > know hate. How would we learn to appreciate if God did not want us to
learn
> > of his creation?
>
> there is some valitidy in this thinking -- on this side of the garden
> of eden. but, is it true that adam and eve were incapable of knowing
> God, knowing God's goodness, knowing God's love, knowing peace,
> knowing love, knowing light -- before such things existed in their
> experience. in a dualistic universe such notions of the need for
> darkness to appreciate or comprehend the light make sense -- but in an
> creation which produced exponential growth in all of its design - such
> a notion as: "one must know evil to understand what good is" is not
> truly logical.
sensible2me:
Not when one wallows in evil swallowing it whole, and does not let go long
enough to see that their is also the good fruit of life. Taste of the
bitter fruit but remember to spit it out and do not become consumed by it
for it will eat you alive till dead.
Then..... begin to rise up out of death (grave) shake it off and learn to
LIVE as God would have us to LIVE. Forgiveness has always been one God's
greatest host. Man sometimes hits rock bottom but when he does he is well
tenderized so to speak to pick himself up and walk in a righteous manner.
>
>
> > God did warn that as soon as we ate the knowledge of evil we as souls
would
> > surely die for the goodness of God would be confusing and the soul of
man
> > would have to find his way back to Gods goodness and it wouldn't be
easy.He
> > would have to go through hell and high water to get there.
> > Mercy is always an offering of fruit of the tree of goodness.
>
> the ancient texts of God's interactions with humanity paint a
> different picture. the hell and high water certainly is there -- as
> people cut off from knowing God and living in a world of evil
> (non-abstract evil, but rather personal evil) have found all of
> creation marred and suffering abuse. much as a vase would suffer
> abuse if it were being used for a hammer.
>
> the ancient texts however present a God who takes upon himself the
> work of rescuing those who are unable to rescue themselves -- see
> God's covenant with abraham as an example.
>
sensible2me:
God has always been a rescuer and always will be. Do people really believe
in rescue for God's souls? Most will tell you "No" they only beleive he
rescued just their soul and their friends souls cause of a beleif rather
than doing and becoming the perfected being of LIFE.
All souls are the property of God and many things we don't see because
God's spirit has a way of teaching that we as fellow man have yet to realize
the beauty of a lesson learned and even a hard lesson..... learned. .
> >
> > > 13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there
> > > was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
> > >
> > sensible2me:
> > Yes, people sinned, it is the nature of evil and it is the other side of
> > Goodness. We can all have both or give up one and take up with the good
> > side of God.
>
> this still presupposes that evil must exist in order for goodness to
> exist. at the very least you seem to be implying that unless there is
> evil there will be no knowing of good.
>
sensible2me:
I'm saying that when God made the entire universe, Heavens, earth, sun, moon
stars, mankind etc. He created in all things both ..... positive (male)and
negative (female) for perfection to be the result. When we do not
understand the laws of nature and are more negative then positive it makes
for the balance to be off kilter and the disaster of our creativity is a
result. The tree of knowledge if you can imagine it in your mind would have
been perfectly shaped, perfectly balanced, perfectly
rounded out, beautiful, lush and green and ripe for picking with the same
amount of fruit on both sides. It would never die, always live and it would
always be a part of a perfect creation. What made it perfect? Life...and
life aint always easy when we don't know the other side of the tree..
> again, those who were sent out by Jesus as ambassadors of the good
> news of his kingdom wrote and taught that "there is no one who seeks
> God, there are none who do righteous, we are all born slaves to sin
> which results in death.
sensible2me:
There comes a day when we buckle up and say teach me Oh Lord. how to LIVE.
Is'nt there always a new day? A new opportunity to begin anew? Ambassabors
of Christ would be people who had "LIKE" qualities of life in them as did
Jesus. Like fruits, if you will.
> keep in mind that christianity affirms the totality of the person. we
> are flesh, soul, and spirit -- and not merely spirit, or merely flesh,
> or merely solipists perceiving the world as we will through our souls.
> the whole package is subject to death in sin and the whole package is
> given redemption in the work of Christ upon the cross.
>
sensible2me:
Christ teaches us to expect good things in Life. The whole package is in a
plan far greater than we as humans can fathom. I beleive Jesus died on a
cross and is not the cross so much....... as what it was... as it was a tree
and the symbolic meaning of a cross where the two sides met and became one
and Christ being in the center leaving death going into LIFE.. . Trees in
the bible mean more than they do here on earth. Life in God's eyes means
more than it does here on earth and in our shallow graves we think we found
life cause we beleive in redemption of the cross. WE ain't seen nothing yet
by the hand of God when it comes to LIFE and the LIVING GOD who instructs us
to LIVE and repent and yet people still hang onto sin like it never goes
away from them.
> > > 14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit
> > > commandment of God, as Adam did.
> > >
> > > 20God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they
> > > were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness
> > > became more abundant.
> >
> > sensible2me:
> > Goodness.....Light always overrules the darkness in man. Man can get
caught
> > up in evil but goodness will surely outlive the death of goodness tha
man
> > has suffered.
>
> true light is much more powerful than darkness -- though after the
> garden -- we are not light bearers -- or reflectors as the moon.
> instead we are blind slaves in utter darkness. what may feel to be
> true -- become increasingly clear to those who walk along the path of
> righteousness. it is not the goodness of humanity however that is
> spoken of in the verse you commented upon. if you look -- just
> carefully -- it says that God gave laws to expose the utter fallen and
> helpless condition of humanity -- and it is not mankind's goodness
> that increases -- but the patience and kindness of God which increases
> -- grace.
>
sensible2me:
And if man does not take patience and kindness upon himself and try it on
for size then he would have no knowledge of what they truly mean. They would
only be words and not an actual experience.
sensible2me:
So there is no overcome? No way to righteousness?
> >Their is a balance but we
> > often don't see the good we still propose that evil is greater than
goodness
> > and fall smack into it. .
>
> balance is always a good word -- though in a dualistic sense i refrain
> from it - it is not as holistic as the biblical account 0f the 3 way
> flow of life -- inward, upward, and outward. genesis reflects this
> exponential model for the way life was intended to be -- cultivated by
> humans yes, but unto abundance in all matters.
>
> >
sensible2me:
Okay but inward balance and upward balance and scales are often used in a
symbolic sense to teach us about balance. The scales tipped to one side
makes me wonder where is the perfection of standing in the middle without
gravity pulling us in one direction or another.
> > you will be saved.
> >
> > sensible2me:
> > Everytime we think not of God's goodness or think not of love, mercy,
faith
> > and hope then call upon Jesus to help and he will save us from our
getting
> > too deep or over our head in the evils of life.
>
> do you suppose the God of the Old Testament is one God and the God of
> the New Testament is another?
>
> > sensible2me:
I think that man due to the fruit of knowledge he was biting into saw God as
mean, revengeful, hateful and quick to harm and as the LIVING God began to
give to man his goodness man had a change of heart. A dead heart that is
seeing the light but fractions of it for he is still bitter from too much
one sidedness. God never gives up though!
sensible2me:
The source is pure TRUST! And pure Trust comes from only one source and it
is as pure as the LIVING GOD who offers it as a gesture of goodwill to all
who ask.. I say that truthfully. It took me many years to truly trust God
enough where I had to let go of everything I ever learned from man and start
fresh and begin a new life in Christ.
>
>____________________________________
Thanks Pablo and I don't want to argue with you either as some would
propose, that is not my intention. I only share as everyone else does.
> > Sorry for too long a post but we're talking about God here and how do we
keep him short.
I guess one word would do . LOVE
Thomas Hankin
news:vg7g4mg...@corp.supernews.com:
> It was not a crime for Adam (soul) to eat of the tree OF KNOWLEDGE.
> God approved of it for the soul of man must learn both good and evil
> and become well endowed with wisdom and understanding of both.
Ummm.... I was just wondering what version of the Bible you are using for
the basis of this statement.
Tom.
sensible2me
"Thomas Hankin" <thomas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93ADCBC1441CDth...@66.185.95.104...
sensible2me:
Hi Tom and it's okay to wonder.
Has God ever created anything that did not have a perfect purpose in life?
"Wisdom".... Knowledge of what is true or right *coupled* with *good*
judgement.
What does *coupled* mean in wisdom?
I have many bibles..... all kinds. I usually read the KJV cause most
people are more familiar with it than any other.
God Blesses......Always.
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
These are they that excuse sin and pretend that to "believe" is sufficient
to be saved, without being obedient to Christ and Apostolic doctrine and
practises .
Jesus stated.
"If thou would enter life keep the commandments"
> romans 10:8-13
> 8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
> preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
> "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
> 9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
> your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
> 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
> God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
Unless you are obedient to the commandments and the Father's Will you cannot
be saved, states Jesus.
"16 Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
"
Matt 19:16-17 (KJV)
> 13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
> why argue with paul?
Or Jesus himself.
"IF thou wilt enter into life, KEEP the commandments."
Matt 19:16-17 (KJV)
"14 Blessed are they that **DO his commandments,** that they may **have
RIGHT** to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the
churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and
morning star. "
Rev 22:14-16 (KJV)
Jeff...
pablo
let's put back in what you snipped - i will deal with your missuse of
the words of Jesus in a moment -- but honestly -- you hold an
erroneous belief that people who hold to the true gospel of faith
alone for salvation do so -- to excuse sin -- sin is not excused --
you fail to see the cross -- and fail to comprehend that sin has been
punished -- the wages of sin is death -- and in your theology -- the
cross becomes meaningless and a bloody mess for no good reason at all.
unless you are more than taught -- unless you are born from above --
you cannot understand these things or much less see or enter the
kingdom. it is the failing of your cult to take the cross and the
blood of the lamb and to make a mockery of it - by making little of
belief.
just as moses lifted the serpent in the desert -- even so must the Son
of Man be lifted up. what in the world does your wack theology make
of this -- what did those bitten by the fiery serpents have to do to
be healed of their terminal condition?
we do not excuse sin -- we hold the remedy in one thing -- Christ and
Christ crucified and raised from the dead -- if this is not true -- we
are to be pitied above all.
<what you snipped>
<what you snipped concerning Jesus and the rich man>
> > "If thou would enter life KEEP the commandments"
***again you have excised one line from the mouth of our Lord and i
assume you mean to make a doctrinal statement based upon this
discourse with the rich man. include all that Jesus spoke to the
young man. are all called to sell everything, and give to the poor,
and then follow Jesus?
as we have been taught by the holy apostle paul -- the law was given
so that sin might increase -- but where sin increased grace abounded
all the more.
he also taught us quite clearly that the law was added to the promise
of abraham's seed so that sin might be exposed.
the law and the commandments have no saving power, if they did then
there would have been no need for Christ and the cross.
instead, if you read the account honestly, you see that only one thing
stood between the rich man and life. it was that which stood between
him and following Jesus.
John 17
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 2"Father,
the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
For you granted him authority over all people that *he might give
eternal life to all those you have given him*. 3*Now this is eternal
life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom you have sent*.
>
> > romans 10:8-13
> > 8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
> > preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
> > "The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
> > 9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
> > your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
> > 10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
> > God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
>
> Unless you are obedient to the commandments and the Father's Will you cannot
> be saved, states Jesus.
>
> "16 Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
> 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
> one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
> "
> Matt 19:16-17 (KJV)
so, your position has you piting paul against Jesus -- when the two
are in harmony you find yourself resorting to a glarring contradiction
-- i know you are raised in argument and for contention does your cult
exist, live, move, and breath. but, your use of this text is
deplorable -- and dishonest -- and wrong.
if you would enter life -- then by all means -- keep all the
commandments -- do it. and keep the ones Jesus stated to the young
man. but remember, if anyone has broken one of them, you break them
all. your conscience must surely be seared -- or else you would know
the truth -- and proclaim the wonders of the cross -- but instead you
preach death and think it is life.
>
> > 13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
> > why argue with paul?
>
> Or Jesus himself.
> "IF thou wilt enter into life, KEEP the commandments."
> Matt 19:16-17 (KJV)
>
> "14 Blessed are they that **DO his commandments,** that they may **have
> RIGHT** to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
> city.
Revelation 22:14 (King James Version)
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right
to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city."
Revelation 22:14 (New King James Version)
"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the
right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the
city."
texts that support the kjv reading are: 205 [8th century], 209 [7th
century], 1611(supp) [8th century text -- this portion missing and
later supplied by another hand -- date uncertain].
texts that support the reading below: aleph [4th century], A [5th
century], 1006 [6th century], 1842 [8th century], 2050 [1107], 2053
[8th century], 2062[8th century], it(ar) [4th century], vg [4th
century], cop [3rd century], eth [ethoipic version 6th century],
Ps-Athanasius(mss - within notes) [? 4th,5th century], Ambrose [397],
Fulgentius [533], Apringius [after 551], Ps-Athanasius [? 4th, 5th
century].
all the oldest and best Greek manuscripts for this Scriptural passage
read "Blessed are they that wash their robes ...", so it seems that
this verse gives no support whatsoever for your use of the text.
Consider other Bible translations of this verse:
Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right
to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:14 (New American Bible)
"Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the
tree of life and enter the city through its gates!"
Revelation 22:14 (Revised Standard Version)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right
to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates."
Revelation 22:14 (New Revised Standard Version)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the
right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates."
Revelation 22:14 (Good News Bible)
"Happy are they who wash their robes clean and so have the right to
eat the fruit from the tree of life and to go through the gates into
the city."
Revelation 22:14 (New International Version)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right
to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
Revelation 22:14 (Darby Version)
"Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the
city."
concerning the washing of robes -- consider revelation's witness:
revelation 7
7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These
are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their
robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
the washing of robes made clean is done by the blood of the lamb.
/////////////
i would not leave out this important text either:
1 John 5:6-13
1 John 5
6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not
with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the
Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in
agreement.
9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is
greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified
concerning His Son.
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in
himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,
because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given
concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life,
and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of
God does not have the life.
///////////
This Is Written That You May Know
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
///////////
>
> 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
> idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
yes, outside -- in hell there are those who, like their father satan,
love to make lies, and like john has written in the verses above:
10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in
himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar,
because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given
concerning His Son.
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life,
and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of
God does not have the life.
> 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the
> churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and
> morning star. "
> Rev 22:14-16 (KJV)
>
> Jeff...
jeff, consider the cross -- seriously -- listen to your worship in
your ecclesia -- look at how people conduct themselves -- by all means
-- write down each of the commandments which Jesus spoke to the rich
man -- and follow them with all your might -- that you may enter into
life -- but the moment you break one -- you are lost.
at that moment please remember the cross upon which Jesus died.
peac3e.
pablo
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
Pablo, you are rather mixed up I am afraid, you are using the word "Law" in
this post which was actually referring to the Law given to Moses, that has
been fulfilled, so yes, obeying that law is foolishness, and if you fall in
one point you are guilty of all.
But under Christ's law, we have forgiveness if we confess our sin, but we
must try and obey the commandments given to us, including Apostolic teaching
and practises.
So to pretend that if we sin yet do not confess them, it doesn't actually
matter as Christ has already died for all our sins anyway, sets a very
dangerous precedent and leads people astray, for they then think that
whatever sins they may commit, such sins have already been forgiven, even if
they do not repent of them.
Jeff...
pablo
Jeff, i am sorry because you were the one who brought up the matter of
the law in your reply to my original post (supplied below).
you quoted: "If thou would enter life KEEP the commandments"
which is a conversation directly concerning the 10 commandments and
eternal life between Jesus and a rich young man.
if i am to call your use of this scripture into question concerning
salavation through faith and faith alone -- then there is no avoiding
it's immediate context.
if you recall the rich young man replied to Jesus by asking, "which
ones (commands)?"
Jesus responded by telling him 6 of the 10 commandments (and he
restated the 10th "love your neighbor as yourself" which is a
postive way of saying "thou shalt not cover thy neighbor's...").
these are the 6 of the 10 which speak of our horizontal relationships
between one another. though a case can be made that the vertical
commandments are implied within this story.
most easily seen are commandments 1 and 2 because 1) the young man had
money for a god and 2) he worshiped graven coins over a jealous God.
i would even suggest (though it might be a stretch) that his initial
question spoke nothing of loving God, serving God, or worshiping God
-- and betrayed a view that he envisioned eternal life as just another
something to be purchased (in this case by a good act or work). in
such a way he gives some evidence that he has taken the name of the
Lord as his own -- but in vain.
and finally, Jesus called the rich young man to make his life a
sabbath of sorts, to leave his wealth and labor and to have confidence
in God's provision of treasures in heaven by giving all to the poor
and following Jesus. while this may not be the letter of the law, it
is in keeping with the spirit.
and on these counts the man was exposed as a sinner.
so, am i truly mixed up -- to deal with your use of a text in a poor
fashion. for by it you seemed to imply that unless someone keeps the
commandments they cannot enter into life.
you posted this right after the teaching of paul which clearly said,
"everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
so, what are you saying -- you brought up the law -- and pited it
against salvation by faith in Christ and his work on the cross.
this text is not one you should use again in such a fashion -- it
truly is something you should repent of doing.
i will hasten to add, that my original post is very clearly portrayed
in this story -- for didn't Jesus truly answer the man's question by
saying, "why do you call me good, there is none good, but God...."
if none are good, then what hope does the young man have of doing a
good act by which he might obtain eternal life? certainly none. for
all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
i think your sect does not believe that Jesus lived a sinless life --
i hope for your sake i am wrong in this assumption. however, if Jesus
lived a good and sinless life -- well, you draw the implications from
his words concerning who alone is good. certainly, we know that he
was the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, a lamb
without spot or blemish, a sinless man.
>
> But under Christ's law, we have forgiveness if we confess our sin, but we
> must try and obey the commandments given to us, including Apostolic teaching
> and practises.
>
> So to pretend that if we sin yet do not confess them, it doesn't actually
> matter as Christ has already died for all our sins anyway, sets a very
> dangerous precedent and leads people astray, for they then think that
> whatever sins they may commit, such sins have already been forgiven, even if
> they do not repent of them.
>
> Jeff...
Jeff, i was speaking of salvation based upon faith in the work of the
Christ upon the cross as a complete act of salvation for all who
believe.
but, as you have written above, we are in agreement. i have not said
that we should pretend that if we sin it doesn't matter as Christ has
already died for our sins anyway.
instead, i am holding up the apostolic teaching of paul:
Galatians 3
Faith or Observance of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes
Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the
Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now
trying to attain your goal by human effort?
4Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing?
5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you
observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
you would be correct to note that paul is speaking to judaizers here
-- people who would call the saved by faith to come under the yoke of
obeying the law of moses in order to attain not only salvation (for
these were believers) but to attain their goal by human effort.
and this is the precident, that it is by the Spirit, it is by faith,
it is by the cross that we are saved and that we attain our goal.
you speak of confessing sins -- repenting of sins -- and i would like
to ask you a question concerning this matter.
will the believer who sins, a believer who was made righteous by God,
through the Spirit, by faith, by the cross of Christ -- then attempt
to make things right in their lives when they sin -- by human effort?
or by the Spirit? will this be done on the basis of human deeds or
upon the basis of the finished work of the cross?
i do not think the bible teaches us that God forgives us simply
because he is tolerant of sin, or capable of overlooking sin due to
his great kindness (and his kindness is great).
rather, God is just and it is upon the basis of a saved life, a new
creation life, and the work of Christ which has accomplished this life
-- that God forgives. without the cross their is no forgiveness or
being made in right standing with God.
this is true for the lost person, it is true for the saved person.
i sense that if we took this into another arena you would agree most
heartily with me -- for if we asked the pentitent follower of Christ -
to do acts of penance for their sins -- you and i would call such
things folly. for no amount of crawling on one's knees, nor lighting
candles, nor reciting verses or prayer will endear our hearts to God.
such an attempt at human effort to make oneself right with God --
would be an afront to the cross and to the blood and to the Spirit.
it would also be a waste of time -- for by human effort -- the cross
is made meaningless.
again jeff, please consider the cross and the real question concerning
what it meant for God to make a way of salvation on behalf of a
humanity that was so fallen -- that nothing could be done on our part
to rescue us.
draw near the one lifted up in the wildreness, gaze upon him and be
healed. do not perish with those who are already condemned, because
judgement has already been passed -- the verdict is in -- all have
sinned. but, to those who gaze upon the one made in everyway in the
likeness of his brethren and yet lived a sinless life -- to be the
lamb of sacrifice to atone for your sin and my own -- sins of
yesteryear and sins of today and sins of tommorrow -- he is our great
hope. he is the hope. the only hope.
peac3e.
pablo
p.s. i am still baffeled by your posting the two verses you did as a
reply to the scriptures below? it makes little or no sense?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
original post
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
genesis 2: 16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any
tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely
die."
romans 5: 12-14
12When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam's sin
brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. And though there
was no law to break, since it had not yet been given,
14they all died anyway--even though they did not disobey an explicit
commandment of God, as Adam did.
20God's law was given so that all people could see how sinful they
were. But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness
became more abundant.
21So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now
God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with
God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
romans 10:8-13
8Salvation that comes from trusting Christ--which is the message we
preach--is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say,
"The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart."
9For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in
your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with
God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.
11As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be
disappointed. "
12Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same
Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
13For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Pure Joy
> read "Blessed are they that wash their robes ...",
> peac3e.
> pablo
Hey pablo, would you have access to these older manuscripts....
I found in the ISV (International Standard Version)
Rev.22:14 stated as you mentioned...
"Blessed are they that wash their robes ...",
Pure Joy
pablo
actually no.
but i am certain some of them are online -- i will make a file -- once
i have a good list -- if they exist -- i will post it on group or put
it on a webpage.
is the ISV online -- i would love to read it and about it.
concerning the verse in question -- i suppose when one is confident in
the finished work of Christ -- and the outworking of holiness that
flows from that life -- one is not too concerned about either
translation.
both are about purity and holiness above all else.
but when one encounters a legalistic mindset -- then pointing out the
text with greater evidential support holds some important
distinctions.
either way -- holiness is about being and the doing which flows from
our being made new in Christ. and the commandments are a pure
reflection of God's holiness set in precept form and underpinned by
principles of God which ultimately point us to the holy personage of
God. no one can be made holy by doing -- but those who are made holy
by the death burial and resurrection of our Lord, certainly are doers
of the word and not hearers only.
either way -- we need to read texts in long portions and not in short
sound bites -- the meaning is always enhanced by taking in meat as
opposed to sipping milk. though, i think we should continue to sip
the milk -- and just add the meat to our diets as we mature.
peac3e.
pablo