Baptist Church Membership - Online Course
* Rowland Croucher *
I'm putting together some 'Baptist Church Membership Class' notes for
any Baptist Church to use for teaching those wanting to join. Any
Baptists out there: feel free to make comments and suggestions. Tell
your pastor (might save him/her some time, and other resources). It's
all a revision/update of a booklet I wrote for Australian and NZ
Baptists a couple of decades ago.
--
Shalom! Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/ (20,000 articles 4000 humor)
Mark T
> Any Baptists out there: feel free to make comments and suggestions.
What about ex-Baptists like myself.
"They come in many varieties!"
Amen!
I've met some great Baptist people who have become lifelong friends and
others (including pastors and those in "high places") whom I wouldn't trust
with anything whatsoever.
Relating this to a recent story told to me by a friend ......
Last week her friend had a cat for many years and it finally died. Because
the friend was ederly, frail and lived in a unit she couldn't bury the cat
in the backyard so she placed the dead cat in a box and wrapped it in brown
paper with string around it. The idea was to place the box in the waste bin
art the local shopping mall which is emptied every day. She placed the box
on the back seat, drove to the shopping mall and parked. A few teenage kids
were nearby. She was worried that she would get mugged and forgot to lock
the car as she did her shopping. When she came back her car had been broken
into and money stolen from her glove compartment ... and the box was gone!
I'd like to see the thief's face when he opened the box.
Baptist churches are like that box. You never know what you're gonna get.
--
My Blog - - my thoughts on Christianity/ song covers & pics & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
My Soundclick Page - download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
Sensi
>
> I'm putting together some 'Baptist Church Membership Class' notes for
> any Baptist Church to use for teaching those wanting to join. Any
> Baptists out there: feel free to make comments and suggestions. Tell
> your pastor (might save him/her some time, and other resources). It's
> all a revision/update of a booklet I wrote for Australian and NZ
> Baptists a couple of decades ago.
>
Sensi:
Hi Rowland,
That was interesting. I had always wondered who, when and
how the Baptist religion began. When I was a baptist a time
ago I asked my pastor that question, he didn't have an
answer other then they've been around since Jesus's time.
I'm glad to find the answer. Thanks
Mark T
> I had always wondered who, when and how the Baptist religion began. When
> I was a baptist a time ago I asked my pastor that question, he didn't have
> an answer other then they've been around since Jesus's time.
That's what EVERY denomination says!
If Jesus came back today he wouldn't recogniose any of teh church as being
exactly what he and his disciples had experienced.
KlugeHans
<sensi...@home.com> wrote:
The answer is the late sixteenth and seventeenth century (post reformation)
American Baptists have often lost touch with the history of their
denomination which has only a tentative connection with groups such as
anabaptists.
The history of the Baptists is best derived from European - especially UK
- Baptist sites
It os worth noting that outside America the Baptists are generally far
more liberal and progressive. Fundamentalism dominates the Strict Baptist
wing in Europe rather than the Baptists generally
The main problem of Baptists in the UK is they tend to be intellectually
rather weak thinkers
NOs...@no.spam
<rccro...@chopthisoutoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
>http://1monthtomeetthebaptists.blogspot.com/
>
>I'm putting together some 'Baptist Church Membership Class' notes for
>any Baptist Church to use for teaching those wanting to join. Any
>Baptists out there: feel free to make comments and suggestions. Tell
>your pastor (might save him/her some time, and other resources). It's
>all a revision/update of a booklet I wrote for Australian and NZ
>Baptists a couple of decades ago.
I Accessed the site, and noticed the following:
"Baptists therefore do not recognise the power of a bishop, synod,
conference, or assembly - unless in exceptional circumstances - to
determine or overrule the decisions of a local church. "
The only conferences or assemblies our faith would have would be a
group of Baptists from other Baptist Churches.
As for decision-making, EACH local Church makes their own decisions,
as each Church is run independently.
NOs...@no.spam
<moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>
>
>Baptist churches are like that box. You never know what you're gonna get.
Ridiculous comment, Mark.
KlugeHans
On the contrary you just confirmed his point of view in your previous post
YOU SAID
"The only conferences or assemblies our faith would have would be a
group of Baptists from other Baptist Churches.
As for decision-making, EACH local Church makes their own decisions,
as each Church is run independently."
_
To which I would ADD
Which is why American Baptist Churches are all too often full of ignorant
crap and prejudice
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>Which is why American Baptist Churches are all too often full of ignorant
>crap and prejudice
If you detest us so much, then why hang out here?
I don't want to argue with you, or anyone else, but blast it, I'm a
Baptist, and see no reason for our Church and our faith to be branded
as it is being.
^^^Sog
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:esp733tru7202ojh6...@4ax.com...
I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
world.
But Chuck I don't think Dave will ever answer your "yes and no" question.
Wow, just look up to the list this is being posted to and I can see a
Baptist group!!!
I'm out of here Jack!
<:^)
KlugeHans
Easy answer
You don't own it
It needs to change
And those inside the church seem not up to the task - they are too
cowardly to confront the deep theological problems of a hopelessly
outdated institution largely hijacked to prop up one of the filthiest of
administrations America has ever experienced
So long as Christians use their numbers for political clout what goes on
in Churches is EVERYONES business
And currently what goes on is BAD!
KlugeHans
<So...@no.smail.7722229706no.cow.com> wrote:
> I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
They did get at you rather early didn't they? I wonder how old you are
now. They got at me the day I was born - my parents being Baptists - but
I escaped between thirteen and seventeen years later
That was over forty years ago now - never regretted the escape but mourned
the chidhood the Baptists took from me for a long time.
>
> I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
> world.
I don't - most especially not for the American fundamentalist rubbish that
is doing so much damage utilising a tiny minority sub culture to create
social polarisation which may have disasterous consequences
KlugeHans
Cleve...@smartnag.com (KlugeHans) wrote:
There is more
"The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
heritage......"
Quote
"The questions we now need to be asking ourselves are not whether
religions have cultural and social effect. We have seen enough in our
time, at home and around the world, to know that they do.
The questions will have to be much more critical with respect to the kinds
of effects different religions have had in the making of cultures.
We are just about ready to admit that different cultures are different and
that they do make a difference in the way people think, behave, and relate
to others.
If comparative cultural analysis is the order for the day, don't we as
Americans have to include our own myths and religions? And why not learn
how to evaluate cultures in the light of the social issues and global
horizons that challenge our times?
Why can't we learn to talk about religion and culture in public as we look
for ways to imagine and create the sane societies we desperately need in
our multicultural world?
If we want to do that, and I think we must, the taboo on the Bible that is
now in place will have to be broken.
The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
heritage that is supposed to have given our nation its values and ethical
foundation.
The taboo is the sign that we all are complicit in the unacknowledged
agreement to let that story stand. It is time to find out whether we think
that wise. The only way to do that is to learn to talk openly in public
forum about religion, culture, and the Bible."
(Burton Mack - reparagraphed for clarity - from "Who EWrote The New Testament)
posted as recommendation
Diana
"^^^Sog" <So...@no.smail.775309029no.cow.com> wrote in message
news:1232a$4633eec1$d066ef45$25...@FUSE.NET...
If you must leave then God Speed and have a nice time in the Baptist group.
I too love the Baptists. I was one for over 8 years and was Blessed each
time I went there which was twice a week.
^^^Sog
"Diana" <diana.is.sa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:46340f3f$0$5730$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
~Sog
Diana
but glad you were joking. I was always slow catching on to a joke until
weeks later then I would bust out laughing when I finally caught on and my
family had a field day with me LOL
Mark T
> If you detest us so much, then why hang out here?
We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
> I'm a Burptist
My commiserations.
--
A Trew Kristyun is a deranged individual living in the current
Fundamentalist Dark Age who believes:
- The One God Yahweh is really three gods.
- Jesus, a finite Jew from Nazareth, is the infinite One God Yahweh
- A human sacrifice was required by God because God needs blood, gore and
guts in order to forgive sins.
- The Bible, a collection of fallible ancient Near Eastern books / letters /
myths, is "God's word" and inerrant
Mark T
> It needs to change
Change?!!!!!!!!
That's a swear word for fundamentalists!!!!!!
> And those inside the church seem not up to the task - they are too
> cowardly to confront the deep theological problems of a hopelessly
> outdated institution largely hijacked to prop up one of the filthiest of
> administrations America has ever experienced
In the USA the worsyt leader is a toss up between George W "WWIII" Bush and
Tricky Dicky "I'm Not A Crook" Nixon ... both obnoxious.
In OZ the worst leader is a toss up between Paul "The Recession We Had To
Have" Keating and Little Johnny "The Lying Rodent" Howard.
> So long as Christians use their numbers for political clout what goes on
> in Churches is EVERYONES business
> And currently what goes on is BAD!
Amen! It's the Fundamentalist Dark Age.
--
"Fundamentalism is demonic, and can only be met with the sword, or at least
a very vitriolic pen." - Peter Cameron
swa...@ozemail.com.au
> In article <Clever-Hans-2904071106120...@192.168.0.3>,
>
<snip>
I have been asking at various times and places during the last thirty-
one years why we all can't be just 'Christians'. I began to think that
way at that time after having seen some aspects of intense
interdenominational rivalry
in the previous decades.
The early Christian churches were known by their geographical
locations;
they were not known by titles such as (some order in development)
Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist. Presbyterian,
Congregational, Baptist, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventist.
Mormons, Pentecostalists and many more.
Indoctrinations can be deeply imprinted into our subconscious brains
and that implies also to Christians doctrines as they are taught in
the various denominations. They can all appear to be right, as they
are accepted when identification (membership) with a certain group is
desired.
Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door on Saturday morning. I didn't
give them the opportunity to tell me their beliefs as I had heard some
of them on previous occasions.
I told them that it would be a good plan if the leaders of all the
Christian denominations, sects and cults would decide what the basic
concepts of the teachings of Jesus Christ are.
I believe that Saul, later Paul, to whom Jesus appeared after His
ascension into heaven, was called by Jesus to provide the doctrine so
that Christ's life, teachings, death and resurrestion could be
understood in their fulfillment of the Old Testament and could be
taken to the Mediterranean peoples and from there into the whole world
in fulfillment of Christ's command to His disciples to "Go into all
the world and preach the Gospel."
> There is more
>
> "The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
> biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
> heritage......"
>
Our Judeo-Christian heritage has been slowly eroded, in Australia, in
the post-war years as secularists have used schools and the media.
That developed in greater intensity as Talkback radio began forty
years ago.
>
> "The questions we now need to be asking ourselves are not whether
> religions have cultural and social effect. We have seen enough in our
> time, at home and around the world, to know that they do.
>
> The questions will have to be much more critical with respect to the
> kinds of effects different religions have had in the making of cultures.
> We are just about ready to admit that different cultures are different and
> that they do make a difference in the way people think, behave, and
> relate to others.
> If comparative cultural analysis is the order for the day, don't we as
> Americans have to include our own myths and religions? And why not
> learn how to evaluate cultures in the light of the social issues and global
> horizons that challenge our times?
>
> Why can't we learn to talk about religion and culture in public as we look
> for ways to imagine and create the sane societies we desperately need > in our multicultural world?
> If we want to do that, and I think we must, the taboo on the Bible that is
> now in place will have to be broken.
>
> The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
> Biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
> heritage that is supposed to have given our nation its values and ethical
> foundation.
>
> The taboo is the sign that we all are complicit in the unacknowledged
> agreement to let that story stand. It is time to find out whether we think
> that wise. The only way to do that is to learn to talk openly in public
> forum about religion, culture, and the Bible."
>
The 'sermon-from-the-pulpit' has meant that many did not learn to
discuss the Christian faith in a friendly environment. Even mid-week
Bible Studies did not always help much in that way, especially as the
'one-size' was expected to fit everyone. The many articles and
postings on the Internet can be helpful in making us more Biblically
literate, although the pros and cons can take time to think
through.
> (Burton Mack - reparagraphed for clarity - from "Who EWrote The New Testament)
> posted as recommendation- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gladys Swager
NOs...@no.spam
<So...@no.smail.775309029no.cow.com> wrote:
>
><NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
>news:esp733tru7202ojh6...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:28:03 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
>> (KlugeHans) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Which is why American Baptist Churches are all too often full of ignorant
>>>crap and prejudice
>>
>>
>> If you detest us so much, then why hang out here?
>>
>> I don't want to argue with you, or anyone else, but blast it, I'm a
>> Baptist, and see no reason for our Church and our faith to be branded
>> as it is being.
>
>I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
>I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
>world.
>
I didn't become a Baptist until I was in my 20's. Prior to that, I had
been raised Presbyterian, but over the years, I found it leaning too
far into the arena of romanism.
Funny- I joined one Baptist church, but discovered some strange things
going on there, plus I was merely being 'accepted' there because I did
their landscaping. I left it, and went back to Presbyterianism, but
found it even more so like romanism.
Then, I joined another Baptist Church, and the rest is history. :o)
I've remained a Baptist ever since.
>But Chuck I don't think Dave will ever answer your "yes and no" question.
>
>Wow, just look up to the list this is being posted to and I can see a
>Baptist group!!!
>
>I'm out of here Jack!
>
><:^)
Hafta think up a new name for that . hmmmmmmm--- Bapto-phobia? !! LOL!
:OD
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>In article <1232a$4633eec1$d066ef45$25...@FUSE.NET>, "^^^Sog"
><So...@no.smail.7722229706no.cow.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
>
>They did get at you rather early didn't they? I wonder how old you are
>now. They got at me the day I was born - my parents being Baptists - but
>I escaped between thirteen and seventeen years later
>
You class it 'an escape'.......... That is certainly your prerogative.
But why label all Baptists over the actions of one church?
>That was over forty years ago now - never regretted the escape but mourned
>the chidhood the Baptists took from me for a long time.
>
The kids in our Church are happy, certainly from what I see. Our
Church also has its Junior Church, and a special kids' hymn before
they leave to attend it, combined with a story geared to Sunday-School
learning.
And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
lively hymns along with the traditionals.
If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
and belong to a Baptist Church?
>> I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
>> world.
>
>I don't -
Again - your choice.
Being members of the faith, and following Jesus is OURS.
NOs...@no.spam
<diana.is.sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>If you must leave then God Speed and have a nice time in the Baptist group.
>I too love the Baptists. I was one for over 8 years and was Blessed each
>time I went there which was twice a week.
Good morning, Diana. I hope both you and Sog enjoy posting to the
Baptist group.
Welcome to you both.
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>In article <esp733tru7202ojh6...@4ax.com>, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:28:03 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
>> (KlugeHans) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Which is why American Baptist Churches are all too often full of ignorant
>> >crap and prejudice
>>
>>
>> If you detest us so much, then why hang out here?
>>
>> I don't want to argue with you, or anyone else, but blast it, I'm a
>> Baptist, and see no reason for our Church and our faith to be branded
>> as it is being.
>
>Easy answer
>
>You don't own it
>
I never said I owned it. So?
Next? You still have not answered the question.
>It needs to change
>
Everything needs to change from time to time.
So- do you really think that by becoming more of an atheist will help
change the Church?
If so, why, and how?
>And those inside the church seem not up to the task - they are too
>cowardly to confront the deep theological problems of a hopelessly
>outdated institution largely hijacked to prop up one of the filthiest of
>administrations America has ever experienced
>
Oh?
Not all of us are cowards.
You don't even know our members.
Leave it to someone on the outside to try to tell us how to operate
the Church we belong to and love. You've obviously never even set foot
inside our Church, where we all regard each other as members of our
CHURCH FAMILY.
>So long as Christians use their numbers for political clout what goes on
>in Churches is EVERYONES business
The oldest cop-out there is.
Surely, if you expect me to take you 'seriously' in your quest to
stamp out the Baptist Church, you can do better than this.
However, your efforts would still fail, because I have no intentions
of abandoning the Baptist faith.
>And currently what goes on is BAD!
And you think what you are saying is 'good'???
Instead of encouraging, you're demoralizing and insulting our faith.
Oops- so sorry, but I will have to run soon.... I'm getting ready to
attend that 'terrible Baptist Church'.
Have a pleasant day....
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>There is more
>
>"The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
>biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
>heritage......"
Again, I never said the Bible was 'our property'.
That's the cult of romanism claiming that stupid line, not the
Baptists.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>Humph! Phar Lap is A-ok with you when he's attacking me!
>???
>
>I believe this phenomenon is called
> "Queen Liar's H y p o c r i s y !!"
>
>john w
Better take your meds and lie down for awhile, John... your insanity
is showing again.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>I'm guessing that he's directing the "ignorant crap and prejudice" at
>YOU, Elaine!
> "It fits!" You are probably the LEAST tolerant "Baptist" I have
>ever known!
>
>You also told a HUGE lie again, when you said:
>
>"I don't want to argue with you, or anyone else"
>
>You LOOK for things to argue with me about! I can be talking to any of
>a dozen other people, your name hasn't come up ONCE.
>That doesn't stop you from wading into a discussion that has NOTHING
>to do with you and picking a fight with ME!
>
>You LIVE to fight!
Paranoia AGAIN duly noted.... and furthermore, you could have said all
this crap in ONE post, not two - wasted space!
NOs...@no.spam
<moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>
>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
How wonderful you're so easily amused. But, alas, old boy, I am not a
'fundamentalist'.
I am simply a Baptist Christian, with good morals, and a good sense of
humor.
duke
wrote:
>I have been asking at various times and places during the last thirty-
>one years why we all can't be just 'Christians'. I began to think that
>way at that time after having seen some aspects of intense
>interdenominational rivalry
>in the previous decades.
Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in beliefs of
these different entities?
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
KlugeHans
"s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> I believe that Saul, later Paul, to whom Jesus appeared after His
> ascension into heaven, was called by Jesus to provide the doctrine so
> that Christ's life, teachings, death and resurrestion could be
> understood in their fulfillment of the Old Testament and could be
> taken to the Mediterranean peoples and from there into the whole world
> in fulfillment of Christ's command to His disciples to "Go into all
> the world and preach the Gospel."
I don't
I believe Paul was a fraud who used a fraudulent claim of divine authority
to totally wreck Christianity - effectively inventing the brand that led
to modern Christianity
KlugeHans
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2007 00:11:48 -0700, "s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >I have been asking at various times and places during the last thirty-
> >one years why we all can't be just 'Christians'. I began to think that
> >way at that time after having seen some aspects of intense
> >interdenominational rivalry
> >in the previous decades.
>
> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in
beliefs of
> these different entities?
>
> duke, American-American
actually very little difference
Protestantism is mostly Catholicism with its guts kicked out and the
difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy is a rather silly scrap
The Venetian transported rabble trashing Constantinople in the thirteenth
century - at the behest of the pope - didn't help relations, but
:-)
+++++++++
Mark T
>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>
> How wonderful you're so easily amused.
It's the way God made us ... with functioning brains to laugh at silly
things.
> alas, old boy, I am not a 'fundamentalist'.
Au contraire, my dear little Trew Kristyun, you are definitely a
fundamentalist. You fit the following features perfectly ......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A FUNDAMENTALIST
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist:
'Firstly, a fundamentalist has a very strong emphasis on the inerrancy of
the Bible, and believes in the absence from it of any sort of error.
Two, a strong hostility to modern theology and to the method, results and
implications of modern critical study of the Bible.
And three, an assurance that those who do not share their religious
viewpoint are not really true Christians at all.'
From Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I used to be a Baptist.
@there Vernono O
So the little uneducated twit likes to glom onto the latest big bad word
"fundamentalist" with zero knoeledge of ithe meaning of the word.
It just sounds bad and there are plenty of other idiots climbimg on the band
wagon.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah
KlugeHans
<diana.is.sa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you must leave then God Speed and have a nice time in the Baptist group.
> I too love the Baptists. I was one for over 8 years and was Blessed each
> time I went there which was twice a week.
I was one for between fourteen and seventeen years
I escaped
But I remember the musty smell
And the fact that the people were often nice but deluded
Mark T
... whatever ...
Dear Trew Kristyun Vermin O
Kissy kissy! Now you pucker up and greet me with a kiss. (Romans 6:16;
1Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians13:12; I Thessalonians 5:26; 1 Peter 5:14.)
I am refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You make silence
a wonderful thing to look forward to. However I took exception to your
recent scribble
It was:
[X] backmasked with Satanic messages
[X] Pagan
[X] New Age
[X] unChristian
[X] Secular Humanist
[X] written in King James English
[X] written in tongues and did not include the interpretation
Your attention is drawn to the fact that:
[X] You flamed the Archbishop of Canterbury
[X] You flamed the Pope
[X] You flamed God
[X] You contradicted Jesus
[X] You contradicted yourself several times
[X] You mindlessly chanted the Pente Mantra several times
[X] You repeatedly assumed unwarranted spiritual, moral or intellectual
superiority
My informed, considered, rational and logical answer to your scribble is in
the acronyms:
[X] AWGTHTGTTSA
[X] DBEYR
[X] DILLIGAD
[X] DQYDJ
[X] FUBAR
[X] GIGO
[X] HUYA
[X] LSHHTCMS
[X] NRN
[X] PMF
[X] SITD
[X] SOI
[X] TAFL
[X] VI
[X] YGBK
I'd explain them to you, but your brain would explode.
It is recommended that you:
[X] Buy an indulgence from me.
[X] Send me a triple tithe.
[X] Do penance.
[X] Devote your life to missionary work in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[X] Start up a Christian Clown Ministry
[X] Start up a Kristyun Skool
QUESTIONS TO UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER:
[X] Jesus said in Matthew 5:42, "Give to him that asketh thee, and from
him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." May I have your house
and car and may I borrow your most prized possession?
[X] Can I have your car after the Rapture?
[X] Have you ever sinned by eating rabbit, pork, shellfish (Leviticus 11:4,
7, 10)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by wearing clothes made of two types of material
(Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by cutting your hair (Leviticus 19:27)?
[X] Were you in the special class at school?
[X] Are you from the shallow end of the gene pool?
[X] Do you want fries with that?
Please save this message and review it occasionally to determine your
progress toward being;
[X] a tolerable Trew Kristyun
[X] a fully-functional human being
[X] integrated into humanity
[X] re-integrated into the wild
If what you don't know can't hurt you, you're practically invulnerable.
Thank you for taking the time to read this flame form.
Remember: Always carry your Trew Kristyun Poop Stick ....Deuteronomy
23:12 -13 "You are to have a place outside the camp where you can go when
you need to relieve yourselves. Carry a stick as a part of your equipment,
so when you have a bowel movement you can dig a hole and cover it up."
KlugeHans
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:54:19 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
> (KlugeHans) wrote:
>
> >In article <1232a$4633eec1$d066ef45$25...@FUSE.NET>, "^^^Sog"
> ><So...@no.smail.7722229706no.cow.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
> >
> >They did get at you rather early didn't they? I wonder how old you are
> >now. They got at me the day I was born - my parents being Baptists - but
> >I escaped between thirteen and seventeen years later
> >
> You class it 'an escape'.......... That is certainly your prerogative.
> But why label all Baptists over the actions of one church?
>
> >That was over forty years ago now - never regretted the escape but mourned
> >the chidhood the Baptists took from me for a long time.
> >
> The kids in our Church are happy, certainly from what I see. Our
> Church also has its Junior Church, and a special kids' hymn before
> they leave to attend it, combined with a story geared to Sunday-School
> learning.
> And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
> lively hymns along with the traditionals.
>
> If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
> you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
> and belong to a Baptist Church?
Because I have seen the dark side of all this and experienced it in my own
life.
Because I do not think Baptists in Europe and Australia are intentionally
cruel but their effect on children often is. This is in common with all
denominations
Because from what I observe, the American Baptist Churches are a long way
to the Right of even the European and Australian Baptist churches, which
are generally quite progressive in their thinking in comparison
Because I believe people need to know that escape is possible, even from
the Fundamentalist and Strict Baptist morass. And that - unlike in my day
of fifty years ago - one can escape almost unscathed
Because I believe the Baptists in the USA in common with others who usurp
the name of Jesus for their distortions are responsible for a malignant
distortion of both history and theology and the world is paying a very
dear price for this error.
What you are doing is claiming OWNERSHIP of the Bible and of the right to
comprehend the past. I would not mind that so much were that understanding
so patently incorrect, when put alongside the findings of a quarter
millenium of modern scholarship. You seem to want to harp back to the
world of the seventeenth century, taking things on faith in an incorrect
answer, rather than searching for an often readily available correct one.
The Bible belongs to Christians, Jews and non Christians alike. In the
West it is an important part of our heritage. It has been the source of
both war and peace and the inspiration and justification of feudalism
slavery and democratic law. The Bible even arguably underlies Marxism as
a creed. It certainly inspired much of what became fascism.
Like it or not analysis of the Bible is a vital matter for our present
civilisation. The difference with past attitudes is that in the modern age
it is time to come to terms with it, rather than to superstitiously revere
it without question as "Gods Word" one thing it patently isn't!. Much
that is contains is in fact malignant. We need to understand how it came
into being, what the real underlying history is and who people such as
Jesus really were
In the latter case we need this because of the rubbish that has been
written about him for the last two millenia - and because of how that
rubbish has been use to control and often destroy peoples lives. In the
most benevolent of churches I have experienced that negative as well as
the positive. So I speak out.
Why wouldn't I seek reform of the church of my childhood? But I do not
return as the prodigal son throwing my arms around my late father's neck
and saying "daddy, I was wrong, is there room for me in the pig sty?"
I return and say - "you encouraged me to learn , to become educated to
search, to seek. You encouraged me with sentences such as "seek and ye
shall find" I did - I'm back - This is what I found - this is what lies
over the hill."
I was born into a working class suburb of bombed out London. We aspired
to public housing, we were so poor. Londoners in their millions were,
after the war. We were educated in a society looking forward to better
times - progressing to a brighter future. But then the shutters came down
- somewhere around 1958 it started - maybe a little earlier. We found
ourselves to be a ninety second target of nuclear war. At the age of
twelve we felt threatened. By 1963 the progressive movements in both
Catholicism and Protestantism were under assault from the reactionary
forces of the Conservative Christian Fundamentalist Right - and an insane
superstitious religiosity descended upon the Churches who feared the
democratisation and rationalisation of society - a fear which a couple of
deacades before had led in Europe to their nazification in central Europe.
In your terms the "Antichrist" seized power in the churches. We left in
droves, filled often with despair and sadness mingled with disgust and
contempt
All that is happening in American Christianity I witnessed a generation to
two generations before. You don't have a Christian religion - what you
have is a fascist political power block masquerading as the successors to
Jesus. Jesus himself was pissed off out of your religion decades ago.
What you have is a piece of updated Victorian crap fantasy masqueraded as
the Saviour of mankind. The real man we sought has been rejected. Nobody
crucified Jesus the man more than YOU that are left in the churches did.
You do it every Sunday - Christ recrucified
So there is your answer. We moved ON - not away. The old church to many
of us is now little more than part of the market forces of twenty first
century politicas and economics. They have NO moral power - no attraction
to the intellect. They are not a source of support for peace and love and
compassion. Much of the time they are malignant evil and nasty. Their
property and finance branches are amongst the vilest groups to deal with
in a free market and all this malignancy is supported by tax breaks
Clean it up. That is what people like me are saying - Clean it up. The
only way you can do this is to go back to your origins - to OUR christian
origins. "Faith in things unseen" is OVER. It has had its disasterous
day. We need to go back and UNDERSTAND how we became what we are - to
understand the pattern that took the teachings of a probably real human
teacher and turned them into the modern nightmare of a planet spiuralling
into war and extinction
There is not much time. I am only one person . But more will follow
banging on your doors and saying "fix the mess". People will learn the
courage in your congregations to stand up and say what the fuck is going
on here. The theology MUST be reformed
And when they do - they will be doing it in Jesus name.
Apres moi le deluge
A reformation is already underway and the more it is resisted by the
reactionary Fundamentalists in your churches the more devastating the
inevitable collapse.
Jesus is supposed to have said "Three Days"
Bring them on - in Jesus name - the real Jesus who called the like of the
present temples a generation of Vipers.
Regards
KlugeHans
-
> Oh?
> Not all of us are cowards.
> You don't even know our members.
> Leave it to someone on the outside to try to tell us how to operate
> the Church we belong to and love. You've obviously never even set foot
> inside our Church, where we all regard each other as members of our
> CHURCH FAMILY.
>
-
My family served your church for a total of around one hundred and fifty
man years since 1930 - my father was a deacon.
Reform is NOT destruction
In fact it is your only hope for survival
KlugeHans
Nor is it the Word of God
It is a collection of frequently contradictory ancient documents
So lets start on common ground - or is that asking too much?
You can start with a cessation in the churches of the use of the Bible to
provide historical evidence and inerrant answers. It contains NEITHER
Then we might start to get somewhere
KlugeHans
Actually I am sorry but you are dominated far more by Fundamentalist
thinking than you think.
The extremity of fundamentalism in America sometimes makes it hard to spot
just how successfully they have made all Christians follow their path
Fundamentalism has you right where it wants you - the centre!
KlugeHans
> If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
> you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
> and belong to a Baptist Church?
>
I don't
I seek REFORM
And that seems to frighten you as a prospect - which is a worry - because
Jesus was a reformer
Who taught you to fear reform?
Who taught you in fact to fear the very Jesus you claim to adore?
QUOTE
"The writings in the New Testament were not written by eyewitnesses of an
overpowering divine appearance in the midst of human history. That is the
impression created by the final formation of the New Testament. Dismantled
and given back to the people who produced them, the writings of the New
Testament are the record of three hundred years of intellectual labor in
the interest of a thoroughly human construction.
The effect of the studied selection and arrangement of these texts must
therefore be seen as remarkable. Mythic rationalizations for very
different social notions and community traditions were forged into a
concerted testimony for the one true gospel and its single story line.
Differences among the various traditions represented in this selection
were erased. Mark could be read through the eyes of Paul, and Paul could
be read as a witness to the gospel according to Matthew, and so on. When
combined with the Jewish scriptures, moreover, for the reasons we have
been able to identify, the Christian Bible turns out to be a masterpiece
of invention. It is charged with the intellectual battles and resolutions
of untold numbers of persons who invested in a grand project three
centuries in the making. It finally reads as the epic they imagined to
sustain them, the history of God's plan to establish his kingdom on earth.
To be quite frank about it, the Bible is the product of very energetic and
successful mythmaking on the part of those early Christians.
We are the heirs of that legacy, as we are of the mythmaking of myriad
Christians from that time to this who worked with these texts to produce
yet other cultural configurations. As if taking a jewel in hand to catch
the light in yet another facet, Christians have manipulated the biblical
myths and symbols time and again to see themselves reflected anew
somewhere in its story. The image of the Christ has shifted with each new
epoch of that history, as has the shape of the basilicas and cathedrals
built to rehearse the biblical story. God's universe also had to expand in
order to encompass the vast horizons of the Bible's story of creation and
redemption. And the music of those cosmic spheres has been captured in a
glorious history of Western chants, masses, anthems, and symphonies. The
emergence of the distinctively Christian sense of awe, called worship, was
another inculcation of the biblical epic, as were the Books of Days for
private devotion, the first flowering of Christian art, and the Western
orientation to texts and publications.
These creations of Christian culture have shaped our Western souls, though
some archaic features linger only as a haunting resonance. And we also
know something of the struggle to be emancipated from the cosmic
encasement of the biblical world in our medieval past. From Petrarch's
"discovery" of beauty in the natural world, through the Copernican
revolution, Galileo's science, Renaissance art, the Reformation's revision
of history, the emergence of "secular" theater, the founding of
universities, Enlightenment literature, the industrial revolution, and the
modern history of political theory and the nation-state, the "birth" was
from the biblical womb and the struggle to be free was repeatedly
adolescent. No wonder the Bible is still among us. No wonder the effect of
the biblical epic can still be discerned in our nation's myths, our
leaders'policies, and the people's dreams and attitudes.
But the world is spinning faster now, and the times have changed our hopes
and fears and circumstances as never before. We face a situation in
America, and predicaments around the world, that call for serious
reflection, honest conversation, and hard intellectual labor. Shooting
from the political hip will no longer do. Harking back to the
Judeo-Christian tradition without spelling out what one means does not
help. Facile references to the Bible are sounding shrill. We are very
close to entertaining a public discourse about our nation's Christian
heritage that does not rise above the level of demagoguery.
Thus this book may help. There are, in fact, two ways in which it might
help, both of them due to its description of the historical and
intellectual process of the Bible's formation. One benefit would be to
help us see early Christian history as a chapter in the larger history of
human social formation and mythmaking. That alone would take the edge off
the Bible's mystique and let us analyze its logic just as we do with that
of all other myths, religions, and their cultures.
We have learned, for instance, that the Bible was produced in the process
of social change and that the process included the mythmaking that
eventually produced the Bible. Our study also tells us that mythmaking is
hard work, requires the best intelligence a society can muster, uses lots
of time and energy, and is in the last analysis a collective enterprise
linked to shared interests in (re)making a social construction. And one
more thing. Looking at early Christianity this way tells us that
mythmaking is born both of new ideas and of the rearranging of traditional
images already at hand. Some early Christians (but not all!) did want to
think that they were starting with a big bang, but even to imagine this
they had to work with old myths and models.
Mythmakers never start completely from scratch. But if that is so, if
early Christianity was a human labor in the bricolage (handicraft) of
creating something new from the bits and pieces of ideas at hand, some
new, some old, don't we also have to be circumspect as we do our own
rethinking of what we are about? Thus, a second benefit might be the sense
of distance from the Christian myth that results from such a redescription
of that early history. Seeing that the early Christians had their reasons
for imagining the world the way they did should come as a relief to any
thoughtful person who has wondered about the helpfulness of the gospel
story when tackling the social issues of our time.
Understanding those reasons lets us appreciate the mythmaking of those
early Christians even as we recognize that their reasons for telling their
stories are not good enough to be our reasons for continuing to tell the
stories just as they told them."
Burton Mack "Who Wrote The New Testament" 1995
Posted in the interests of recommendation and review
========
Quote
"The questions we now need to be asking ourselves are not whether
religions have cultural and social effect. We have seen enough in our
time, at home and around the world, to know that they do.
The questions will have to be much more critical with respect to the kinds
of effects different religions have had in the making of cultures.
We are just about ready to admit that different cultures are different and
that they do make a difference in the way people think, behave, and relate
to others.
If comparative cultural analysis is the order for the day, don't we as
Americans have to include our own myths and religions? And why not learn
how to evaluate cultures in the light of the social issues and global
horizons that challenge our times?
Why can't we learn to talk about religion and culture in public as we look
for ways to imagine and create the sane societies we desperately need in
our multicultural world?
If we want to do that, and I think we must, the taboo on the Bible that is
now in place will have to be broken.
The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
heritage that is supposed to have given our nation its values and ethical
foundation.
The taboo is the sign that we all are complicit in the unacknowledged
agreement to let that story stand. It is time to find out whether we think
that wise. The only way to do that is to learn to talk openly in public
forum about religion, culture, and the Bible."
(Burton Mack - reparagraphed for clarity - from "Who Wrote The New Testament)
posted as recommendation
KlugeHans
Cleve...@smartnag.com (KlugeHans) wrote:
> In article <p019335utc10ji0ml...@4ax.com>, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>
>
> > If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
> > you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
> > and belong to a Baptist Church?
> >
>
> I don't
>
> I seek REFORM
>
> And that seems to frighten you as a prospect - which is a worry - because
> Jesus was a reformer
>
> Who taught you to fear reform?
>
> Who taught you in fact to fear the very Jesus you claim to adore?
>
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the
daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
And a man零 foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he
that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my
sake shall find it.
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him
that sent me.
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a
prophet零 reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a
righteous man shall receive a righteous man零 reward."
Jesus in Matthew KJV
"And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against
Jesus to put him to death; and found none.
For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and
within three days I will build another made without hands."
Mark KJV
duke
>> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in
>beliefs of
>> these different entities?
33,000 different protest_ants faiths for starters.
Paul Duca
Paul
swa...@ozemail.com.au
> On 29 Apr 2007 00:11:48 -0700, "s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >I have been asking at various times and places during the last thirty-
> >one years why we all can't be just 'Christians'. I began to think that
> >way at that time after having seen some aspects of intense
> >interdenominational rivalry
> >in the previous decades.
>
> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in beliefs > of these different entities?
>
and not so great between others.
That is the tragedy of the Christian faith, more understandable in
some ways as the faith was taught from about 1 700 years ago when
there were no means of mass education that are available today, except
in the sense that denominational training programmes perpetuate their
own interpretations. Also I would think that those denominational
leaders who do become aware of errors in interpretation would be
somewhat loathe to state that to their members and even more loathe to
state the fact publically..
The information that I have is that the church at Rome found if
difficult to witness to the saving grace of Jesus Christ to the
indigenous peoples of the Mediterranean area in the first Christian
century because He was male and those peoples used clay fertility
goddesses (obviously female) as the centre of their worship.
That brought about the elevation of Mary to a position of reverence
and ultimately to her being titled 'the Mother of God', which she
wasn't as she was the mother of the earthly body of Jesus.
Other changes that came were special clothing for priests and their
celibacy (a doctrine that should never be imposed on anyone), the
naming of Peter as the first Pope, sainthood given to those you had
rendered special services, the reverence of relics, and the main one -
the selling of indulgences to limit the time spent in purgatory (that
itself not scriptural) - to pay for the building of St Peter's in
Rome and often by poor people (little abe to afford the expense) that
finally brought about the Protestant Reformation in the 1517. In more
modern times the assumption (ascension) of Mary into heaven in a
simialr way to that of Jesus was declared true doctrine.
There have come differences in Protestant doctrines over time as by
law in some countries only ten members are needed to register a new
church.
The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
> Pope Paul VI
Pope Paul VI would have to say that as the head of the Roman Catholic
Church. In the Mass it is believed that the bread and the wine become
the actual body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation) and to
receive Christ participation in the Mass is vital. However, I do not
believe that was what was meant by Jesus at the Last Supper. I believe
that He was speaking metaphorically
ie the bread and the wine were to represent His body and blood and
were to be remembrances to those who participated of the meaning of
Christ's death to them.
In my opinion the most perfect form of prayer is,
"Lord, be merciful to me a sinner. I believe in the work of Jesus
Christ that re-establishes my relationship with Him, with the Triune
God Almighty, and by which I will be able to participate in Eternal
Life after my death.
The Vatican, since the second Vatican Council of 1962 - 65 has been
working to re-establish itself as the leader in Christendom. However,
there are Christians who will never bow to the Pope or 'kiss his
ring', which is what John Paul II was desiring when in 1982 he said,
"All ye wanderers from Rome return."
The divisions in Christianity were caused by the fact that Rome
wandered from the scriptural truths and needs to reform.
Even if that reform occurs the Vatican should not be the centre of
Christendom - perhaps it should be in Switzerland as that country
remained neutral in the war years and has many denominations
represented among its members. Jerusalem, would not be available at
the present time because of the political situation there.
Gladys Swager
CB
>On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:41:08 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com (KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>>> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in
>>beliefs of
>>> these different entities?
>> actually very little difference
>
>33,000 different protest_ants faiths for starters.
The rcc: mother of all denominations
>
>
>duke,
swa...@ozemail.com.au
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:33:52 -0500, duke <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote:
<snip>
> >33,000 different protest_ants faiths for starters.
> The rcc: mother of all denominations
>
Quite some time ago I read parts of an encyclopedia listing all/most
of the denominations, sects and cults within the Christian faith. I
found it very disturbing that the New Testament,. the basic text of
the Christian faith, could have so many different interpretations and
practices imposed upon it. (With aplogies, I cannot remember the
author's name, but it contained about 800 pages.)
>
The Roman Catholic Church, in my opinion, cannot be called 'the mother
of all the denominations'. The hierarchy at Rome from the time of
Wycliff in England (late 1300's), through reformers on the Continent
including Luther's 95 theses on the door of the church in Wittenberg
on All Saints' Eve, 1517 and later did all in its power to stop the
reformers, but the Protestant Reformation proceeded, albeit with
problems of its own.
>
<snip>
When John Paul II apologised, sometime in the late 1990's as far as I
can recall, to a number of groups that the Vatican had offended, I
noted that Protestants were not mentioned.
Yes, there were Protestants who offended members of the Roman
Catholic Church.
I sensed that at Vatican II there were discussions on how to bring
about the re-emergence of the Vatican as the leader of the Christian
Churches, in a reaction to the Billy Graham Crusades that had swept
the world in the 1950's. My intuitions were right because I have
learnt from one website that an office for Christian Unity was setup
in 1967 at the Vatican.
But Christian unity is something that all Christians need to work on;
it is not for any one group to try to impose on others.
Gladys Swager
duke
Yep, the one started by Christ.
duke
wrote:
>> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in beliefs > of these different entities?
>Of course I do. The differences are greater between some denominations
>and not so great between others.
>That is the tragedy of the Christian faith, more understandable in
>some ways as the faith was taught from about 1 700 years ago when
>there were no means of mass education that are available today, except
>in the sense that denominational training programmes perpetuate their
>own interpretations. Also I would think that those denominational
>leaders who do become aware of errors in interpretation would be
>somewhat loathe to state that to their members and even more loathe to
>state the fact publically..
>The information that I have is that the church at Rome found if
>difficult to witness to the saving grace of Jesus Christ to the
>indigenous peoples of the Mediterranean area in the first Christian
>century because He was male and those peoples used clay fertility
>goddesses (obviously female) as the centre of their worship.
>That brought about the elevation of Mary to a position of reverence
>and ultimately to her being titled 'the Mother of God', which she
>wasn't as she was the mother of the earthly body of Jesus.
You have bad information re elevating Mary to reverence. Jesus is fully divine
(God as Father) and fully human (Mary as mother), and anyway you cut it, Mary
carried Jesus from fetus to birth like any woman.
She is not worshipped by any Chruch, nor does she have any divinity.
>Pope Paul VI would have to say that as the head of the Roman Catholic
>Church. In the Mass it is believed that the bread and the wine become
>the actual body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation) and to
>receive Christ participation in the Mass is vital. However, I do not
>believe that was what was meant by Jesus at the Last Supper. I believe
>that He was speaking metaphorically
Where did he say he was speaking "metaphorically"? In baptism, we are buried to
sin with Christ Col 2:12 and in the Eucharist he takes our lives as his Body and
Blood to the cross.
Why don't you believe what Christ said?
>ie the bread and the wine were to represent His body and blood and
>were to be remembrances to those who participated of the meaning of
>Christ's death to them.
>In my opinion the most perfect form of prayer is,
>"Lord, be merciful to me a sinner. I believe in the work of Jesus
>Christ that re-establishes my relationship with Him, with the Triune
>God Almighty, and by which I will be able to participate in Eternal
>Life after my death.
In the Mass, we go to the cross with Christ.
>The Vatican, since the second Vatican Council of 1962 - 65 has been
>working to re-establish itself as the leader in Christendom. However,
>there are Christians who will never bow to the Pope or 'kiss his
>ring', which is what John Paul II was desiring when in 1982 he said,
>"All ye wanderers from Rome return."
Hey, the protest_ants broke away in 1600AD, not vice versa.
>The divisions in Christianity were caused by the fact that Rome
>wandered from the scriptural truths and needs to reform.
No kidding. It was the protest_ers that "wandered", rejecting the words of
Christ passed on from Christ to Pope to Pope.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>What you are doing is claiming OWNERSHIP of the Bible and of the right to
>comprehend the past. I would not mind that so much were that understanding
>so patently incorrect, when put alongside the findings of a quarter
>millenium of modern scholarship. You seem to want to harp back to the
>world of the seventeenth century, taking things on faith in an incorrect
>answer, rather than searching for an often readily available correct one.
>
I have NEVER claimed 'ownership' of the Bible. When I say 'the Bible
GOD gave us', I refer to the Bible HE gave all Christians.... this is
said in counter to the romanist line about 'the romanist cult 'gave'
us the Bible'.
I SEARCH the Bible every day, and even after having read it in its
entirety more times now than I can count, I still continue to learn
from it.
I'm not interested in 'harping back' to the 17th C, although, I am
somewhat a historian in that I enjoy studying old British history from
the Tudor era.
>I was born into a working class suburb of bombed out London. We aspired
>to public housing, we were so poor.
Our family was not rich either. I am still working to pay off my
mortgage, and often wonder if I'll be even able to retire.
That still doesn't make my faith 'invalid'.
I denote a lot of anger in your comments - I'll leave it at this
juncture.
NOs...@no.spam
Let them enjoy their folly, Vernon.
Laugh and bemoan all they like, real faith will not be destroyed.
@there Vernono O
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:8lob33d2n2999gooq...@4ax.com...
Faith is imbued by God. It is a gift as stated in Eph 2:8
NOTHING CAN TAKE IT AWAY
Cults will come and go. A major cult will exist in end times.
@there Vernono O
"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
news:h28c33lhh2g5h25kd...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:36:19 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
> yourself, are you? Tell me you're not!
Oh, that was cogent and requested.
NOs...@no.spam
>
>"john w @yahoo.com>" <johnw<no> wrote in message
>news:h28c33lhh2g5h25kd...@4ax.com...
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:36:19 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:50:32 -0700, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>So the little uneducated twit likes to glom onto the latest big bad word
>>>>"fundamentalist" with zero knoeledge of ithe meaning of the word.
>>>>
>>>>It just sounds bad and there are plenty of other idiots climbimg on the
>>>>band
>>>>wagon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Let them enjoy their folly, Vernon.
>>>
>>>Laugh and bemoan all they like, real faith will not be destroyed.
>>
>> When you say, "real faith", Elaine, you aren't referring to
>> yourself, are you? Tell me you're not!
>
>
>Oh, that was cogent and requested.
>
Well, Vernon - like I already said:
"Let them enjoy their folly.
Laugh and bemoan all they like, real faith will not be destroyed."
It seems JW fits that category - a follower of folly, and a useless
bemoaner....
>
NOs...@no.spam
Right on.
>Cults will come and go. A major cult will exist in end times.
>
True ---- I do believe we're already in the end timers, yet the cult
of romanism still exists... but is day is dawning....
KlugeHans
"s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> But Christian unity is something that all Christians need to work on;
> it is not for any one group to try to impose on others.
There is NO hope for Christianity except through a process of death and
resurrection.
This process occurs in Scripture - not only in the story of Jesus but in
"his" story of tearing down the Temple and rebuilding it in three days
This process of deconstruction and building anew is the only one that will
work. The ancient theologies - the misinterpretations of the Bible - the
false history the self protective Heirarchies .....
They must all go
Then there is a chance of building something new
I used to go to a Methodist Church. Like many Victorian Churches it was
eaten out by dry rot - wet rot - ants - and death watch beetle. It was
quite a pretty church but there was nothing for it - it had to be torn
down before it fell down
In tearing it down the Christians retained some control
The alternative was to allow it to crash down around them and on top of them
Your choice
But there is very little time before the choice is taken away by the rot within.
che...@flapper.com
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:54:19 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
>(KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>>In article <1232a$4633eec1$d066ef45$25...@FUSE.NET>, "^^^Sog"
>><So...@no.smail.7722229706no.cow.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I got saved at a Baptist Vacation Bible school, I was seven years old!
>>
>>They did get at you rather early didn't they? I wonder how old you are
>>now. They got at me the day I was born - my parents being Baptists - but
>>I escaped between thirteen and seventeen years later
>>
>You class it 'an escape'.......... That is certainly your prerogative.
> But why label all Baptists over the actions of one church?
>
>>That was over forty years ago now - never regretted the escape but mourned
>>the chidhood the Baptists took from me for a long time.
>>
>The kids in our Church are happy, certainly from what I see. Our
>Church also has its Junior Church, and a special kids' hymn before
>they leave to attend it, combined with a story geared to Sunday-School
>learning.
We too have children's church (I teach third-fifth graders, plus the
sixth and seventh graders who want to come [almost half the class
:-)].
But not yesterday. Nope. I'm laid up! My wife asked me to pull a
weed, and although I did pull the weed, I pulled my damaged knee
worse! Went to one doc today. Will go to the orthopedic doc
tomorrow. Will likely have a brace OR another cortesone shot, OR
surgery. Awwww. . .
But yesterday, the KIDS were in charge of the whole worship service
(except for the Baptism of course, two of my seventh-grade girls were
baptized. . .and I didn't get to attend. . .:-( ) I'm told the
service was wonderful! Talk about your HAPPY kids!
>And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
>lively hymns along with the traditionals.
Us too! The kids LOVE to sing. And laughter is enjoyed by ALL, kids
AND adults.
>
>If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
>you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
>and belong to a Baptist Church?
>
>
>>> I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
>>> world.
>>
>>I don't -
>
I thank God for ALL of the Baptist churches everywhere! AND the
Lutherans. AND the Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, Bible churches,
and and and and. . .!
AND FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHOM WE SERVE!
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
che...@flapper.com
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:56:52 +1000, "Mark T"
><moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>
>>
>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>
>
> How wonderful you're so easily amused. But, alas, old boy, I am not a
>'fundamentalist'.
>
>I am simply a Baptist Christian, with good morals, and a good sense of
>humor.
I AM a fundamentalist. I BELIEVE in all of the "fundamentals" of
Biblical Christianity.
And I too have a good sense of humor.
in Christ Jesus,
Checker
KlugeHans
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 08:51:51 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
> (KlugeHans) wrote:
>
> >
> >What you are doing is claiming OWNERSHIP of the Bible and of the right to
> >comprehend the past. I would not mind that so much were that understanding
> >so patently incorrect, when put alongside the findings of a quarter
> >millenium of modern scholarship. You seem to want to harp back to the
> >world of the seventeenth century, taking things on faith in an incorrect
> >answer, rather than searching for an often readily available correct one.
> >
> I have NEVER claimed 'ownership' of the Bible. When I say 'the Bible
> GOD gave us', I refer to the Bible HE gave all Christians.... this is
> said in counter to the romanist line about 'the romanist cult 'gave'
> us the Bible'.
But God did not give it to Christians - that is nonsense
The Bible was written over several hundred years mostly by Jews. Some of
the New Testament may be of Gentile origin such as the letters from the
second century fraudulently attributed to disciples and to Paul. The
Bible exists as a collection of books that belong to all of us - that are
open to all of us to examine, research , investigate and add to our poetic
and literary culture. None of the Bibles documents are any more "Holy" or
less humanly produced than todays "Washington Post" or the manual you use
to run your video recorder. The Christian worship of these books is an
arrogant usurpation of books that belong to the world. How dare you
impose a particular interpretation -and so patently incorrect and
unfounded an interpretatation at tht "Word of God" indeed!
>
> I SEARCH the Bible every day, and even after having read it in its
> entirety more times now than I can count, I still continue to learn
> from it.
So you should - it is a very valuable set of books - But you would learn
far more if you got the superstitious factional nonsense out of your head
and asked the right questions - principally not "Why did Jesus say this
- do this - pray this" but why did a particular group of scribes or writer
SAY that Jesus "said this" "did this" "prayed this"
> I'm not interested in 'harping back' to the 17th C, although, I am
> somewhat a historian in that I enjoy studying old British history from
> the Tudor era.
Then please go back a little further and look at the Protestant
reformation - recognise in its history how much you are still religiously
a part of the old Catholic Empire - ho little the Baptist Church - sharing
a common history with Rome before the sixteenth century - has progressed
beyond it
>
> >I was born into a working class suburb of bombed out London. We aspired
> >to public housing, we were so poor.
> Our family was not rich either. I am still working to pay off my
> mortgage, and often wonder if I'll be even able to retire.
+
A little irrelevant advice on that
We paid off our mortgage by a simple strategy - We borrowed small blocks
of family money - five to ten thousand dollars - on short loans interest
free. We used the money to pay off the capital amounts of our interest
thereby reducing the repayments. This made it relatively easy to push
hard to pay off the small private loans . We then reborrowed where
possible and did it again. Quite quickly the capital reduction makes
repayments of personal private loans even easier and the loss of interest
after tax was minimal to the generous lenders
We were able to repay a twenty five year loan in this manner in only three
years appoximately. We were then able to help others in a similar
situation
It is worth looking at. The use of small blocks repaying capital is the
key to it - that and having the repayment instalments adjusted in order to
compensate for the reduction in capital loan. Somewhere in your family
or friends there is bound to be the odd few thousand that is sitting there
doing nothing - when your mortgage is gone it will be easy to repay the
kindness extended to you if only in extending the same to someone else.
Good luck
+
@there Vernono O
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:3pec33dtqm81d30nq...@4ax.com...
Percentagewise (terrible phrase) There are less Christians than EVER before
and more straight out atheists than ever before. Then there will be the
remnant.
@there Vernono O
<che...@flapper.com> wrote in message
news:6ntc331jqao41qm9s...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 07:55:03 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:56:52 +1000, "Mark T"
>><moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>>
>>
>> How wonderful you're so easily amused. But, alas, old boy, I am not a
>>'fundamentalist'.
>>
>>I am simply a Baptist Christian, with good morals, and a good sense of
>>humor.
>
> I AM a fundamentalist. I BELIEVE in all of the "fundamentals" of
> Biblical Christianity.
And that is what counts. All we have to do is avoid legalism.
It is what the Jew fell imto.
KlugeHans
<duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
=
>
> anyway you cut it, Mary
> carried Jesus from fetus to birth like any woman.
And the foetus got here as a result of its development from a fertilised egg
The egg was fertilised with human sperm from her sexual partner
All else is pious pigshit invented mostly in fourth century
Constantinople, building on a particularly silly fable first recorded by
the scribes who wrote the Gospel they called "according to Matthew" some
fifty years after Jesuses (supposed) death
It is all a bit daft really - the sort of story people tell babies
But Christians - unfortunately are often proud of their infantile status
Barry OGrady
>On 29 Apr 2007 00:11:48 -0700, "s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au>
>wrote:
>
>>I have been asking at various times and places during the last thirty-
>>one years why we all can't be just 'Christians'. I began to think that
>>way at that time after having seen some aspects of intense
>>interdenominational rivalry
>>in the previous decades.
>
>Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in beliefs of
>these different entities?
Christianity is popular because Christian can believe whatever they like.
Take Mark T, please! He hates Christianity and Christians with a passion
but still claims to be Christian.
>*****
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
I do not represent atheists or atheism
Barry OGrady
>In article <lm1933pap4jv6iphk...@4ax.com>, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:03:59 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com
>> (KlugeHans) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >There is more
>> >
>> >"The Bible is not the private property of the Christian churches. The
>> >biblical epic belongs to us all in the form of the Judeo-Christian
>> >heritage......"
>>
>>
>> Again, I never said the Bible was 'our property'.
>> That's the cult of romanism claiming that stupid line, not the
>> Baptists.
>
>Nor is it the Word of God
>
>It is a collection of frequently contradictory ancient documents
There is a simple way to resolve the contradictions, and that is by
looking at one passage at a time. Suppose you find a passage
saying some dude had 144,000 horseman at some time. You
know its true because the bible is without error, but then you
find another passage claiming only 14,000. That must be true
too. Just don't put the two passages side by side.
>So lets start on common ground - or is that asking too much?
>
>You can start with a cessation in the churches of the use of the Bible to
>provide historical evidence and inerrant answers. It contains NEITHER
>
>Then we might start to get somewhere
You miss the point of the bible being so contradictory. It allows Christians
to choose what they want to believe.
Barry OGrady
><NOs...@no.spam> wrote:
>
>>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>>
>> How wonderful you're so easily amused.
>
>It's the way God made us ... with functioning brains to laugh at silly
>things.
The God that doesn't exist? Did God create the stupid things too?
>> alas, old boy, I am not a 'fundamentalist'.
>
>Au contraire, my dear little Trew Kristyun, you are definitely a
>fundamentalist. You fit the following features perfectly ......
Marky is a fundamentalist who hates fundamentalists because
he hates himself.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>DISTINGUISHING FEATURES OF A FUNDAMENTALIST
They all think they are the only right one.
Dear Marky
I am refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. You make silence
a wonderful thing to look forward to. However I took exception to your
recent scribble
It was:
[X] backmasked with Satanic messages
[X] Pagan
[X] New Age
[X] unChristian
[X] Secular Humanist
[X] written in King James English
[X] written in tongues and did not include the interpretation
Your attention is drawn to the fact that:
[X] You flamed the Archbishop of Canterbury
[X] You flamed the Pope
[X] You flamed God
[X] You contradicted Jesus
[X] You contradicted yourself several times
[X] You mindlessly chanted the Pente Mantra several times
[X] You repeatedly assumed unwarranted spiritual, moral or intellectual
superiority
My informed, considered, rational and logical answer to your scribble is in
the acronyms:
[X] AWGTHTGTTSA
[X] DBEYR
[X] DILLIGAD
[X] DQYDJ
[X] FUBAR
[X] GIGO
[X] HUYA
[X] LSHHTCMS
[X] NRN
[X] PMF
[X] SITD
[X] SOI
[X] TAFL
[X] VI
[X] YGBK
I'd explain them to you, but your brain would explode.
It is recommended that you:
[X] Buy an indulgence from me.
[X] Send me a triple tithe.
[X] Do penance.
[X] Devote your life to missionary work in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[X] Start up a Christian Clown Ministry
[X] Start up a Kristyun Skool
QUESTIONS TO UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER:
[X] Jesus said in Matthew 5:42, "Give to him that asketh thee, and from
him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away." May I have your house
and car and may I borrow your most prized possession?
[X] Can I have your car after the Rapture?
[X] Have you ever sinned by eating rabbit, pork, shellfish (Leviticus 11:4,
7, 10)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by wearing clothes made of two types of material
(Leviticus 19:19; Deuteronomy 22:11)?
[X] Have you ever sinned by cutting your hair (Leviticus 19:27)?
[X] Were you in the special class at school?
[X] Are you from the shallow end of the gene pool?
[X] Do you want fries with that?
Please save this message and review it occasionally to determine your
progress toward being;
[X] a tolerable Trew Kristyun
[X] a fully-functional human being
[X] integrated into humanity
[X] re-integrated into the wild
If what you don't know can't hurt you, you're practically invulnerable.
Barry OGrady
>So the little uneducated twit likes to glom onto the latest big bad word
>"fundamentalist" with zero knoeledge of ithe meaning of the word.
You are right about Mark. He had a bad experience with his gay
brother being mistreated so he hates everything Christian, yet he
can't let go.
>It just sounds bad and there are plenty of other idiots climbimg on the band
>wagon.
There is noone else quite as bad as Mark. While others may express disdain
for Christians Marks actively shows his hatred.
>ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah
Barry
swa...@ozemail.com.au
> On 29 Apr 2007 18:34:37 -0700, "s...@ozemail.com.au" <swa...@ozemail.com.au wrote:
>
> >The information that I have is that the church at Rome found if
> >difficult to witness to the saving grace of Jesus Christ to the
> >indigenous peoples of the Mediterranean area in the first Christian
> >century because He was male and those peoples used clay fertility
> >goddesses (obviously female) as the centre of their worship.
> >That brought about the elevation of Mary to a position of reverence
> >and ultimately to her being titled 'the Mother of God', which she
> >wasn't as she was the mother of the earthly body of Jesus.
>
> You have bad information re elevating Mary to reverence. Jesus is fully > divine (God as Father) and fully human (Mary as mother), and anyway > you cut it, Mary carried Jesus from fetus to birth like any woman.
>
That did not make her 'the Mother of God'. She was the mother of the
earthy body of Jesus Who was born perfect because of the overshadowing
of the Holy Spirit in His conception. Mary, herself, was not perfect,
as is stated in the 'Immaculate Conception' -she was born of sinful
human parents as all humans are and have been since the sin of Adam
and Eve. Despite a sinful nature, through the right guidance persons
can grow into beings of high moral integrity. I believe Mary did have
that high moral integrity to be chosen by God to bring Jesus, as His
only begotten Son, into the world so that God in Jesus Christ
experienced death, the wages of sin, so that He could give us Eternal
Life as a free gift by faith in Him. .
> She is not worshipped by any Chruch, nor does she have any divinity.
>
Prayers are made to her. Some would even call her co-Redeemer with
Christ. From one website I found the title 'God-bearer' and I find
that more appropriate.
> >Pope Paul VI would have to say that as the head of the Roman
> > Catholic Church. In the Mass it is believed that the bread and the
> > wine become the actual body and blood of Christ (transubstantiation) > > and to receive Christ participation in the Mass is vital. However, I do
> > not >believe that was what was meant by Jesus at the Last Supper. I > > believe that He was speaking metaphorically
>
> Where did he say he was speaking "metaphorically"? In baptism, we
> are buried to sin with Christ Col 2:12 and in the Eucharist he takes our > lives as his Body and Blood to the cross.
> Why don't you believe what Christ said?
>
Colossians 2 : 12 Buried with Him in baptism (my comment 'in His death
about 1970 years ago'), ...we are raised with Him through the
operation of God Who has raised Him from the dead.
Romans 6 : 4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death;
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the
Father, even so we should walk in newness of life.
It is a fact that some members of Christian denominations, despite
baptism, have not 'walked in newness of life'. That could be because
of inadequate teaching on not understanding the fullness of the gospel
that had been given.
> >ie the bread and the wine were to represent His body and blood and
> >were to be remembrances to those who participated of the meaning of
> >Christ's death to them.
> >In my opinion the most perfect form of prayer is,
> >"Lord, be merciful to me a sinner. I believe in the work of Jesus
> >Christ that re-establishes my relationship with Him, with the Triune
> >God Almighty, and by which I will be able to participate in Eternal
> >Life after my death.
>
> In the Mass, we go to the cross with Christ.
>
So that implies that at each Mass Christ is again crucified???
Surely you must mean symbolically?? spiritually???
> >The Vatican, since the second Vatican Council of 1962 - 65 has been
> >working to re-establish itself as the leader in Christendom. However,
> >there are Christians who will never bow to the Pope or 'kiss his
> >ring', which is what John Paul II was desiring when in 1982 he said,
> >"All ye wanderers from Rome return."
>
> Hey, the protest_ants broke away in 1600AD, not vice versa.
>
And why? You haven't been taught that. Doctrines had been instituted
by Rome that were not true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And, by-the-way, from your previous postings all of the Christian
churches in the Mediterranean area were started by the first apostles
of Jesus Christ and in that sense started by Jesus Christ. The
followers of Jesus Christ were first called 'Christians' at Antioch.
The Orthodox churches are evidence today of that fact. Rome only
gained an ascendency through being on the crossroads of the ancient
world ('all roads lead to Rome') and through Constantine in AD 314.
Those who came to be called Protestants had no choice but to break-
away when the Popes in Rome would not accept that they had made
grievous mistakes - the crucial one being the indulgences in which
(supposedly) time in purgatory (that meant that Christ's sacrifice did
not cover all sins) could be lessened by the purchased of those
papers. .
> >The divisions in Christianity were caused by the fact that Rome
> >wandered from the scriptural truths and needs to reform.
>
> No kidding. It was the protest_ers that "wandered", rejecting the words > of Christ passed on from Christ to Pope to Pope.
>
I would assume that you mean from Peter from the fact that Jesus said
to him that he was Peter (rock) and upon this Rock (Peter's statement
that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God) Jesus would
build His church.
However, it is only tradition that Peter was in Rome as the leader of
Christians there. It is strange that Paul never wrote of Peter in that
position when he wrote what we now have as 'The Epistle to the
Romans'.
*****
Gladys Swager
CB
<swa...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
The protestants were those who were seeking the Truth from which the
rcc had strayed. There is only one church & the rcc is not it.
One reason there are so many denominations, of which the rcc is the
first, is because there is money in religion. \
Many are called, few are chosen.
There is only one Truth. If everyone seeks that Truth, there would be
no division. I do not desire to be in unity with an organization that
teaches error. Especially the rcc.
priests that wear big garments & hats, calling themselves "reverend" &
"father" and "holy" is against what the Bible teaches & I will have no
part of it.
>
>Gladys Swager
CB
>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 20:51:53 -0500, CB <count...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:33:52 -0500, duke <duckg...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:41:08 +1000, Cleve...@smartnag.com (KlugeHans) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Let me get this straight - you don't believe there is a difference in
>>>>beliefs of
>>>>> these different entities?
>>>> actually very little difference
>>>
>>>33,000 different protest_ants faiths for starters.
>>
>>The rcc: mother of all denominations
>
>Yep, the one started by Christ.
Sorry but Christ is not a murderer.
Nor is He a liar.
Nor does He hoard wealth.
Nice try.
>
>duke,
KlugeHans
god_fre...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> You miss the point of the bible being so contradictory. It allows Christians
> to choose what they want to believe.
>
> Barry
> =====
I don't miss the point at all mate and I agree with you
So long as you have a contradictory volume as your source of justification
you will always be able to claim you are in right. That is what
Christians do - it is how they abuse the Bible - desecrate it in fact
There are parallels in legislation - often legal conditions are
deliberately written this way whereby what exiist on page seven is
reversed on page 127. Development restrictions are especially written
that way. Which is how the mafia gets to build what it wants
It writes the laws
@there Vernono O
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 16:53:50 -0700, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>>news:6ntc331jqao41qm9s...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 07:55:03 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:56:52 +1000, "Mark T"
>>>><moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How wonderful you're so easily amused. But, alas, old boy, I am not a
>>>>'fundamentalist'.
>>>>
>>>>I am simply a Baptist Christian, with good morals, and a good sense of
>>>>humor.
>>>
>>> I AM a fundamentalist. I BELIEVE in all of the "fundamentals" of
>>> Biblical Christianity.
>>
>>
>>And that is what counts. All we have to do is avoid legalism.
>
>
> cough. choke. You're as legalist as it gets!
>
> smirk.
It's O.K.If you don't know what a legalist is.
God Chooses
The rest are results.
Oh, just for kicks. Do you know of a simngle legalistic belief that I have?
@there Vernono O
"Barry OGrady" <god_fre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:714b33dk8q7orlqc0...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:41:54 +1000, "Mark T"
> <moi@home0000000006woohoo0000006> wrote:
>
>><NOs...@no.spam> wrote:
>>
>>>>We like a good laugh at silly fundamentalists.
>>>
>>> How wonderful you're so easily amused.
>>
>>It's the way God made us ... with functioning brains to laugh at silly
>>things.
>
> The God that doesn't exist? Did God create the stupid things too?
>
>>> alas, old boy, I am not a 'fundamentalist'.
>>
>>Au contraire, my dear little Trew Kristyun, you are definitely a
>>fundamentalist. You fit the following features perfectly ......
>
> Marky is a fundamentalist who hates fundamentalists because
> he hates himself.
That can be said about many people. No Joke.
NOs...@no.spam
(KlugeHans) wrote:
>
>So you should - it is a very valuable set of books - But you would learn
>far more if you got the superstitious factional nonsense out of your head
>and asked the right questions - principally not "Why did Jesus say this
>- do this - pray this" but why did a particular group of scribes or writer
>SAY that Jesus "said this" "did this" "prayed this"
I am HARDLY superstitious.
As for why Jesus said or did whatever, ALL Christians mention His
Words and actions as a part of Christian admonition in many cases, or
simply in a learning experience concerning the Bible.
Sorry, but I do not swallow your comments concerning this.
NOs...@no.spam
I'm sorry to hear that, Checker.
Here's hoping and praying all will turn out well without the need for
surgery or the cortisone shot.
A brace is hopefully all you'll need (((((((((Checker)))))))))
>But yesterday, the KIDS were in charge of the whole worship service
>(except for the Baptism of course, two of my seventh-grade girls were
>baptized. . .and I didn't get to attend. . .:-( ) I'm told the
>service was wonderful! Talk about your HAPPY kids!
>
I'll bet they were -- it is a shame you were unable to make it-----I'm
sure you'd have loved to see them.
Yesterday here, it was Baptist Womens' Sunday- we had a special singer
there, and wow, did she have a VOICE!!!!!!
She hit some high notes that made the walls shake!!
>>And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
>>lively hymns along with the traditionals.
>
>Us too! The kids LOVE to sing. And laughter is enjoyed by ALL, kids
>AND adults.
Absolutely, and why not?
The guest singer, poor lady, she forgot to turn her tape off when she
finished the first song, and be darned if a Christmas song didn't
start up!!!!!!!!She raced up to the front again, and blushingly turned
it off pronto - She grabbed the "Pastor's hand as she raced back to
the pew, saying how sorry she was. everyone simply laughed with her,
not at---- and she calmed down!! :O)
>>
>>If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
>>you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
>>and belong to a Baptist Church?
>>
>>
>>>> I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
>>>> world.
>>>
>>>I don't -
>>
>I thank God for ALL of the Baptist churches everywhere! AND the
>Lutherans. AND the Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, Bible churches,
>and and and and. . .!
>
>AND FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHOM WE SERVE!
>
RIGHT ON.
>in Christ Jesus,
>Checker
NOs...@no.spam
Yes, unfortunately, more and more people are being 'turned off'
Christianity.
Too many cults and false teachings, I think.
NOs...@no.spam
I reckon I say I'm not because there are some practices and rules
which are man-made, and I don't recognize them.
However, I am still a follower of Jesus, no doubt about it. :o)
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:09:12 -0600, che...@flapper.com wrote:
> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>Checker may claim to be "Christian", but I have real doubts that he
>is!
>
>He has no forgiveness in him!
>
>"IF you do not forgive men, God will not forgive you!"
More lies from you, John..........
YOU are the totally unforgiving one, especially when you keep on
demanding 'apologies' from those of us who owe you NONE.
Grow up.
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>
>
>cough. choke. You're as legalist as it gets!
>
>smirk.
Grow up, short-bus johnnie.
Your childishness is really boring and utterly ridiculous.
@there Vernono O
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:14je33dhluhtrjlrg...@4ax.com...
God only calls just so many.
@there Vernono O
<NOs...@no.spam> wrote in message
news:89je331pprb5aooop...@4ax.com...
Let's see what the logic is there.
NONE are righteous.
Once saved always saved.
The corollary to that is. "If not saved, not saved."
che...@flapper.com
I appreciate your prayers. I was amazed at how the word got out to
the Christians I know (and whom I don't know) who have called with
encouragement and prayers.
Just got back from the orthopedic doc's. Nothing broken. The
ligament is likely not torn. BAD bone bruise, but it will heal. HUGE
brace to support it while I walk, but the brace will be good in the
future if I hurt it again.
And
BACK TO WORK TOMORROW! Yaaaaaay! GOD IS SOOOO KIND TO ME!
>
>>But yesterday, the KIDS were in charge of the whole worship service
>>(except for the Baptism of course, two of my seventh-grade girls were
>>baptized. . .and I didn't get to attend. . .:-( ) I'm told the
>>service was wonderful! Talk about your HAPPY kids!
>>
>I'll bet they were -- it is a shame you were unable to make it-----I'm
>sure you'd have loved to see them.
I will likely receive pictures of the baptisms at church next week.
And I'll congratulate them for obeying the Lord and tell them how
happy I am for them. They are a GREAT bunch of kid!
>
>Yesterday here, it was Baptist Womens' Sunday- we had a special singer
>there, and wow, did she have a VOICE!!!!!!
>She hit some high notes that made the walls shake!!
How do they DO that?!!!
>
>>>And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
>>>lively hymns along with the traditionals.
>>
>>Us too! The kids LOVE to sing. And laughter is enjoyed by ALL, kids
>>AND adults.
>
>Absolutely, and why not?
>
>The guest singer, poor lady, she forgot to turn her tape off when she
>finished the first song, and be darned if a Christmas song didn't
>start up!!!!!!!!She raced up to the front again, and blushingly turned
>it off pronto - She grabbed the "Pastor's hand as she raced back to
>the pew, saying how sorry she was. everyone simply laughed with her,
>not at---- and she calmed down!! :O)
When things like that happen they seem "earth-shattering," but then we
realize that they are just plain funny! And who should laugh at us
better than we ourselves?
>>>
>>>If YOU detest it, that, again, is your prerogative ------- but why do
>>>you try to ruin it for those of us who DO continue to believe in Jesus
>>>and belong to a Baptist Church?
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I for one thank God for the Baptist churches here in American and around the
>>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>>I don't -
>>>
>>I thank God for ALL of the Baptist churches everywhere! AND the
>>Lutherans. AND the Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, Bible churches,
>>and and and and. . .!
>>
>>AND FOR THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WHOM WE SERVE!
>>
>RIGHT ON.
In Jesus,
Checker
@there Vernono O
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Tue, 1 May 2007 08:58:46 -0700, "Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote:
> © 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
> may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>>
>
> John 3:16 that WHOSOEVER believes.
All believe. What or who makes the decision?
> John 3:17 For God does not want for ANY to perish!
Any of "HIS"
See John 12:40.
This is a Baptist News group.
>
>
> And-- GEe Whiz, vern! If only SOME are called, what if you WEREN'T
> ??
>
@there Vernono O
> x-no-archive: yes
> the terminology!
>
> chuckle.
>
> And when Jesus comes, and He points out your many sins of pride and
> arrogance (though I can't understand YOU being proud OR arrogant ???)
> I'm sure you will tell Jesus "you just don't understand what those
> words mean, Jesus!"
>
> Good luck with that!
>
>>
>>
>>God Chooses
>>The rest are results.
>>
>>Oh, just for kicks. Do you know of a simngle legalistic belief that I
>>have?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>It is what the Jew fell imto.
>>>>
>>>>> And I too have a good sense of humor.
>>>>>
>>>>> in Christ Jesus,
>>>>> Checker
>>>>
>>>
For those who are HIS, their sins are as far as east is from west. NEVER
remembered.
This is not an RCC News group.
swa...@ozemail.com.au
<snip>
> For those who are HIS, their sins are as far as east is from
> west. NEVER remembered.
With God, the past is past and that is the wonder of faith in Jesus
Christ
as Saviour and God.
>
However, past beliefs are carried over into the present
and are prepetuated in the denominational system that has become a
characteristic of the Christian faith.
> This is not an RCC News group.- Hide quoted text -
>
I am of the opinion that it is
a newsgroup to discuss aspects of Christinaity in Australia
in a more general way and surely includes discussion of the doctrines
of the various denominational groupings.
There is so much waste in denominational Christianity. Each
denomination has its own journals, its own buildings, its own clergy
doing somewhat similar activities, wasting time (up to twenty hours a
week or more rephrasing sermons as it would be termed
plagiarism to just read the sermons of others even of those no longer
living in this world.
I have been called a 'spiritual butterfly' as I have had membership in
three denominations and attendance at others (by circumstance rather
than by deliberate choice) and I came to see the stupidity of it all.
I came to an understanding of the value of interdenominal/non-
denominational Christianity in which Christians work together.
The Scripture Union Movement (Inter-Schools Christian Fellowships,
originally the Children's Special Services Mission) now in its one
hundred and fortieth year is a wonderful example. In the context of
the denominational nature of Christianity it supports many of those
groups, but does not dictate to them how they should organise.
However, as there is a threat to Christianity by secularists/atheists
it does seem that there is a need for more unity within it.
As I have been saying that for thirty one years - others have said it
for longer time periods, ie World Council of Churches, I have become
well aware of indoctrinations that determine the attitudes and actions
of many.
Those, whom I call 'professional Christians' ie in employment within
the various denominations there are constitutions and sets of rules
that they have agreed to abide by so it is difficult for them to make
changes.
So the status quo remains and it seems best 'not to rock the boat'.
Gladys Swager
Jani
"Vernono O" <Here @there> wrote in message
news:463788cf$0$4229$882e...@news.ThunderNews.com...
> This is a Baptist News group.
alt.christnet.christianlife, alt.religion.clergy and aus.religion.christian
are *not* baptist newsgroups. Please watch your crossposts.
Jani
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>x-no-archive: BWAAHAHAHAHAHA! Nope - it's ARCHIVED!
>On Tue, 01 May 2007 10:11:44 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
> Š 2007 John D Weatherly all rights reserved; no portion of this post
>may be used anywhere else without written permission of the author.
>
> You are VERY superstitious, you PATHOLOGICAL LIAR!
>
And you are a horses' petootie, short-bus.
> You believe you have seen "ghosts." You said it, quite a few of us
>challenged you on it, you shook your fist and stuck your jaw out and
>maintained you have seen "ghosts."
>
Too bad. I KNOW A ghost when I see one, and have had paranormal and
psychic experiences ALL MY LIFE.
I've also PHOTOGRAPHED ghosts.
You cannot argue with what you SEE.
> I wonder if you've told your Ms Pastor yet.
>
Yes, I did, as a matter of fact.
And since ghosts ARE mentioned in the Bible God gave us, my Pastor
also understood.
'You' simply hate the thought because it was me who mentioned it.
Too bad.
NOs...@no.spam
>On Tue, 01 May 2007 10:16:56 -0400, NOs...@no.spam wrote:
>>I'm sorry to hear that, Checker.
>>Here's hoping and praying all will turn out well without the need for
>>surgery or the cortisone shot.
>>A brace is hopefully all you'll need (((((((((Checker)))))))))
>
>I appreciate your prayers. I was amazed at how the word got out to
>the Christians I know (and whom I don't know) who have called with
>encouragement and prayers.
>
No problem. :o)
>Just got back from the orthopedic doc's. Nothing broken. The
>ligament is likely not torn. BAD bone bruise, but it will heal. HUGE
>brace to support it while I walk, but the brace will be good in the
>future if I hurt it again.
>
>And
>
>BACK TO WORK TOMORROW! Yaaaaaay! GOD IS SOOOO KIND TO ME!
>>
I am so glad it's nothing requiring surgery. The near-breaks, I know,
are often more painful than an actual break, especially where torn
ligaments are concerned.
I hope and pray for your speedy recovery, Checker.
>>>But yesterday, the KIDS were in charge of the whole worship service
>>>(except for the Baptism of course, two of my seventh-grade girls were
>>>baptized. . .and I didn't get to attend. . .:-( ) I'm told the
>>>service was wonderful! Talk about your HAPPY kids!
>>>
>>I'll bet they were -- it is a shame you were unable to make it-----I'm
>>sure you'd have loved to see them.
>
>I will likely receive pictures of the baptisms at church next week.
>And I'll congratulate them for obeying the Lord and tell them how
>happy I am for them. They are a GREAT bunch of kid!
>>
I do hope you get some good piccies.
At least you can remember it that way for years to come if you could
not be there in person.
>>Yesterday here, it was Baptist Womens' Sunday- we had a special singer
>>there, and wow, did she have a VOICE!!!!!!
>>She hit some high notes that made the walls shake!!
>
>How do they DO that?!!!
>>
I don't know ------ but for the little size of her, her voice was
Mount Everest by comparison!
>>>>And oh yes, we actually LAUGH in our Church too, as well as sing more
>>>>lively hymns along with the traditionals.
>>>
>>>Us too! The kids LOVE to sing. And laughter is enjoyed by ALL, kids
>>>AND adults.
>>
>>Absolutely, and why not?
>>
>>The guest singer, poor lady, she forgot to turn her tape off when she
>>finished the first song, and be darned if a Christmas song didn't
>>start up!!!!!!!!She raced up to the front again, and blushingly turned
>>it off pronto - She grabbed the "Pastor's hand as she raced back to
>>the pew, saying how sorry she was. everyone simply laughed with her,
>>not at---- and she calmed down!! :O)
>
>When things like that happen they seem "earth-shattering," but then we
>realize that they are just plain funny! And who should laugh at us
>better than we ourselves?
>>>>
Right on.
If we can't at least laugh at ourselves, we might as well fold!
NOs...@no.spam
wrote:
>shotgun!
uh-huh- more insane obsession on weapons.........