Streaming worship (for anyone interested)
Robby_e
Hillsboro Oregon. I thought if anyone was interested, listen to some of our
praise and worship online (some sermons too). I have some original songs
too.
Feedback is welcome.
Thanks.
Rob Goodwin
http://www.oasislife.org/worship/
Mark Tindall
> Hi, I'm a praise and worship leader for Oasis Christian Life Center in
> Hillsboro Oregon.
I'm sorry.
applegas
@dnews.tpgi.com.au:
Why are you sorry? Oregon is GORGEOUS!!! :)
God bless,
Sarah
Mark Tindall
> >> Hi, I'm a praise and worship leader for Oasis Christian Life Center in
> >> Hillsboro Oregon.
> >
> > I'm sorry.
>
> Why are you sorry? Oregon is GORGEOUS!!! :)
Oregon is a great place to be. I'm sorry he is a "praise and worship"
leader when most have no idea what praise or worship is.
Pente Mantra: "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Glory to God! Bless the Lord!
Jesus, Jeusus, Jesus! Amen! Yabba-dabba-do! Polly wanna cracker!"
Repeat ad nauseum as though God is impressed the more you say it!
Does one praise God anywhere in the Pente Mantra: "Hallelujah! Praise the
Lord! Glory to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Bless the Lord! Amen."????
Suppose I chanted to my wife in the same manner: "HalleluBev! Praise the
Wife! Glory to Bev! Bev, Bev, Bev! Bless the Wife! So let it be!" Have
I praised my wife with these words? NO!
What makes you think that chanting "Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Glory
to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Bless the Lord! Amen." is praising God???
"Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Glory to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Bless
the Lord! Amen." can also be translated as " Let's praise YHWH! Let us
praise the Lord! Let us give glory to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Let us
bless the Lord! Let it happen."
Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! Glory to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Bless
the Lord! Amen." are CALLS or INVITATIONS to praise and NOT THE PRAISE
ITSELF!. The Psalmist says "Praise the Lord BECAUSE ...." The words after
"because" are the praise. "Praise the Lord!" means "Let us praise the
Lord!" It is a CALL or INVITATION to praise and not praise within itself.
In the same manner I can say "Let's praise my wife because ..." What follows
the "because" is the praise. "Let's praise my wife" is not praise per se.
The Macquarie Dictionary (The Australian standard from one of my
universities) states:
PRAISE:
n. 1. - the act of expressing approval or admiration
v. 2. - to express approval or admiration of
Other dictionaries define PRAISE with words like:
- warm approbation
- commend the merits of
- extol the attributes of
This means that praise has CONTENT. Where is the CONTENT in the Pente
Mantra??? There is NO CONTENT as it is merely a CALL TO PRAISE NOT PRAISE
ITSELF!
The CONTENT OF THE PRAISE is what comes after "(Let us) praise God because
..."
Another way of looking at it is by asking the question: "Why praise God?"
The answer is "Praise God because ....." Whatever your answer to WHY is
the PRAISE! This has CONTENT and MEANING.
The pente Mantra has NO CONTENT and WRONG MEANING attached to it.
Example: "Why praise my wife?" The answer is "Praise my wife because
....." Whatever your answer to WHY is the PRAISE! This has CONTENT and
MEANING.
This is simple basic plain English.
Salsaevery
(Not to mention that your circular reasoning makes you look like a fool.)
Sorry to have to say that.
Worship Deep Brother!
(NY, NY)
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:40cd...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Mark Tindall
>>most have no idea what praise or worship is.
.....
> > Repeat ad nauseum as though God is impressed the more you say >>it!
> > Does one praise God anywhere in the Pente Mantra: "Hallelujah! Praise
the
> > Lord! Glory to God! Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! Bless the Lord! Amen."????
....
>And you have "ZERO" spiritual insight.
Why? Because I dare criticise Jesus Jingles and God Ads as bad art with no
sensible lyric????
From Os Guinness, an evangelical Christian, "Fit Bodies, Fat Minds: Why
Evangelicals don't think and what to do about it" ( Baker Books; Grand
Rapids:1994)
p. 9 -11
...a leading problem in American evangelicalism - anti-intellectualism.
Anti-intellectualism is a disposition to discount the importance of truth
and the life of the mind. ...evangelicals have toned up their bodies and
dumbed down their minds. The result! Many suffer from a modern form of
what the ancient stoics called "mental hedonism" - having fit bodies but fat
minds. ...At root, evangelical anti-intellectualism is both a scandal and a
sin. It is a scandal in the sense of being an offense and a stumbling block
that needlessly hinders serious people from considering the Christian faith
and coming to Christ. it is a sin because it is a refusal, contrary to the
first of Jesus' two great commandments, to love the Lord our God with all
our minds.
p. 62
...evangelical artists - and poets, scriptwriters, sculptors, dancers and
actors - as the least understood and most alienated single group of people
in the evangelical churches.
p. 72
... the inability to read anything but the shallowest texts is equally
widespread. ... the body of Christ often gives the appearance of the
uncontrolled movements of a paraplegic.
Brenda G. Kent
LOL!
Bren
--
********************************************************
"Knowledge without wisdom is like stacking books
on the back of an ass"
Old Japanese saying.
Come visit my webpage at http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~wt211
*********************************************************
Mark Tindall
> polly wanna cracker?
Yabba-dabba-do!
"It doesn't matter WHAT you say as long as your heart is in the right
place." - Trew Kristyun
My heart is in the right place ... in my chest! ;-)
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
While it is true that God looks on the heart, it always matters what you
say.
Salsaevery
No. You have "ZERO" spiritual insight because "spiritual things are
spiritually discerned" and unless you are a Christian, you have no spiritual
discernment. So until you become a Christian, you have no authority to speak
on spiritual matters mainly because you are not capable to experience God on
a spiritual level. Besides, you haven't even listened to the music, you are
assuming what it's like because you hate Christians in general.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for
they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are
spiritually discerned.
I don't know for sure.... but my guess is that you carry some kind of a chip
on your shoulder toward the church for some injustice done to you in the
past. And instead of picking yourself up, dusting yourself off, and going on
with life, you decide to throw the baby out with the bath water and have
made it your mission to try and discredit Christians whenever possible.
Frankly, you aren't impressing anyone with your 'head knowledge'. There's a
huge difference between the invention of the mind 'head knowledge' and
spiritual insight 'wisdom'. I've gone back to read some of your other posts
in the near past... They lack any kind of spiritual insight as well. All
head garbage, sorry to say. No real depth. Anyone can quote the saying of a
handful of worn-out philosophers. I want to hear someone talk who has been
somewhere spiritually and carries some spiritual weight (wisdom), not some
emotional basketcase trying to discount God because he/she's been hurt in
the past. Get over it - then get some wisdom... and then I'll listen.
I'm just not impressed.
Salsaevery
<m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:40cd...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Mark Tindall
> No. You have "ZERO" spiritual insight because "spiritual things are
> spiritually discerned"
Rubbish. Everyone has a God given mind to discern with and spirit =mind.
"In the introduction to The Road Less Travelled, I wrote that I make little
distinction between the mind and the spirit, and therefore make no
distinction between spiritual growth and mental growth. You cannot separate
thinking - intellect - from psychological and spiritual growth."
- from M Scott Peck 'The Road Less Travelled and Beyond; Spiritual Growth In
An Age of Anxiety' (Rider; London 1997) p. 49
> and unless you are a Christian, you have no spiritual
> discernment.
I have been a Christian for over 30 years.
>Besides, you haven't even listened to the music
I have been in the CCM scene and recorded an album. I have constantyly
listened to the music having been there in the beginning with Larry Norman
in the 60s.
> you are assuming what it's like because you hate Christians in >general.
I don't hate Christians. I am a Christian.
> I don't know for sure....
That's for sure!
> Frankly, you aren't impressing anyone with your 'head knowledge'.
Frankly you aren't impressing anyone with your pious platonic dichotomy of
spirit over body.
>There's a huge difference between the invention of the mind 'head
>knowledge' and spiritual insight 'wisdom'.
Your 'spiritual wizdumb' has no wisdom.
Try learning something about the history of Christian music.
--
######################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
Mark Tindall
> > > polly wanna cracker?
> > Yabba-dabba-do!
> > "It doesn't matter WHAT you say as long as your heart is in the right
> > place." - Trew Kristyun
> > My heart is in the right place ... in my chest! ;-)
>
> While it is true that God looks on the heart, it always matters what you >
say.
Tell that to the writers of Jesus Jingles and your "prais and worship"
leader!
Polly wanna a cracker or a Jesus Jingle or art that says something???
Salsaevery
The Spirit and the mind are indeed separate and cannot be interchanged.
Doing so reveals an extreme lack of even the fundamentals of the human
creature and goes against 70 - 80% of the theme of the New Testament which
clearly defines the two as separate. This should be basic foundation for
someone calling themselves a Christian.... especially of so many years.
> >Besides, you haven't even listened to the music
> I have been in the CCM scene and recorded an album. I have constantyly
> listened to the music having been there in the beginning with Larry Norman
> in the 60s.
And, I was talking about listening to the worship music that started this
particular string of comments (not CCM in general). I agree with you though
that CCM is grossly lacking in much substance now days (in general). The
worship music of Oasis (which is here in question) I think is relatively
good compared to much I have heard.
Thanks
Salsaevery
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:40ce...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
Dumb.
Why do you think Jesus taught that the overflow of the heart IS the mouth ?
Because, at the end of the day, it's what in the intent and integrity
and honesty of a person to worship God as they are, NOT in the words,
music, form or style.
lawrence
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > > > polly wanna cracker?
> > > Yabba-dabba-do!
> > > "It doesn't matter WHAT you say as long as your heart is in the right
> > > place." - Trew Kristyun
> > > My heart is in the right place ... in my chest! ;-)
> >
> > While it is true that God looks on the heart, it always matters what you >
> say.
>
>
> Tell that to the writers of Jesus Jingles and your "prais and worship"
> leader!
Actually, I spent a year as the worship leader of a small Baptist church
not far from the seminary. Generally we extolled God's virtues, gave
thanks for certain things and also all things, sang thematic hymns that
sedgewayed between the worship and the message, and prayed together.
> Polly wanna a cracker or a Jesus Jingle or art that says something???
>
>
More like talk about how awesome He is "How Great Thou Art" talk about
how He reigns in majesty "Majesty!" and how He is risen from the dead
"He is risen!"
Then we would give thanks and pray.
God is awesome and great, He reigns, and in Christ He has risen from the
dead. Let's never forget, that God is holy "Holy! Holy! Holy!"
Sermon on how the power of God can deliver us from a wasted life and
give us a holy life.
Or that's a rough sketch of it anyway. It was fluid, not fixed.
psalmsmith
"(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
> psalmsmith wrote:
>
> > In article <40cd42db$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Brenda G. Kent" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>polly wanna cracker?
> >>
> >>
> >>Yabba-dabba-do!
> >>
> >>"It doesn't matter WHAT you say as long as your heart is in the right
> >>place." - Trew Kristyun
> >>
> >>My heart is in the right place ... in my chest! ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > While it is true that God looks on the heart, it always matters what you
> > say.
>
> Dumb.
>
> Why do you think Jesus taught that the overflow of the heart IS the mouth ?
Because it is true. The construct we cashe in our hearts forms our
every thought and action, whatever that object may be.
The ultimate point of the lesson, is how in Christ, we have been given
the opportunity to place His now-living person, into that place we cashe
in our hearts.
> Because, at the end of the day, it's what in the intent and integrity
> and honesty of a person to worship God as they are, NOT in the words,
> music, form or style.
>
> lawrence
Never said it was otherwise, however you cannot worship God by singing
songs that dishonor Him. We can all think of a song that would dishonor
Him right? Is it the music, or is it what's being said? You set the
cut where you want it, but remember your thoughts are a product of what
you feed your head.
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
> In article <40ce3a60$1...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>,
> "(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>psalmsmith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <40cd42db$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
>>> "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Brenda G. Kent" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>polly wanna cracker?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yabba-dabba-do!
>>>>
>>>>"It doesn't matter WHAT you say as long as your heart is in the right
>>>>place." - Trew Kristyun
>>>>
>>>>My heart is in the right place ... in my chest! ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>While it is true that God looks on the heart, it always matters what you
>>>say.
>>
>>Dumb.
>>
>>Why do you think Jesus taught that the overflow of the heart IS the mouth ?
>
>
> Because it is true. The construct we cashe in our hearts forms our
> every thought and action, whatever that object may be.
Cashe? What the heck is that word?
> The ultimate point of the lesson, is how in Christ, we have been given
> the opportunity to place His now-living person, into that place we cashe
> in our hearts.
>
>
>>Because, at the end of the day, it's what in the intent and integrity
>>and honesty of a person to worship God as they are, NOT in the words,
>>music, form or style.
>>
>>lawrence
>
>
> Never said it was otherwise, however you cannot worship God by singing
> songs that dishonor Him. We can all think of a song that would dishonor
> Him right?
That's probably where we can beg to differ.
Is complaining to God dishonouring Him? (Job)
Is saying "life sucks" and is hard dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
Is saying "God, I can't find you at times" dishonouring Him? (Psalms)
Is a cry of pain and anguish about situation and circumstance
dishonouring Him ? (Lamentations)
Is saying "I want truth and justice" dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
Is disrespecting those who seek to bring another person down
dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
The Bible says all creation gives glory to God.
Even if a song or music doesn't talk about God in verbatim, it still
talks about the life we have as humans and that's something worth
knowing about (especially when it talks about hard and nasty issues we
have to face).
> Is it the music, or is it what's being said?
Neither. As soon as you start factoring the style or form of music or
what's been said as a "mark" of whether or not it's honouring God or
not, you judge by the externals, not by what God sees in the heart
(something he admonished Samuel for during David's anointing).
As soon as you start thinking the music or what's been said IS more
important than the integrity and honesty of the artist in conveying
whatever message they want to communicate through the song, you head
towards the heresy of certain types of music being demonic and evil and
just, well, unChristian.
> You set the cut where you want it, but remember your thoughts are a product of what
> you feed your head.
I know this. So tell me why the music or what's been said is a GREATER
testimony to Christ than the integrity and honesty and authenticity of
the artist who writes, sings and produces the music ?
Think about it.
lawrence
Brenda G. Kent
Homer Simpson on the Bible : "too preachy !"
:)
psalmsmith
"(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
> psalmsmith wrote:
> >
> > Because it is true. The construct we cashe in our hearts forms our
> > every thought and action, whatever that object may be.
>
> Cashe? What the heck is that word?
cache
> > The ultimate point of the lesson, is how in Christ, we have been given
> > the opportunity to place His now-living person, into that place we cashe
> > in our hearts.
> >
> >
> >>Because, at the end of the day, it's what in the intent and integrity
> >>and honesty of a person to worship God as they are, NOT in the words,
> >>music, form or style.
> >>
> >>lawrence
> >
> >
> > Never said it was otherwise, however you cannot worship God by singing
> > songs that dishonor Him. We can all think of a song that would dishonor
> > Him right?
>
> That's probably where we can beg to differ.
>
> Is complaining to God dishonouring Him? (Job)
no, but perhaps Psa 13 is a better example.
> Is saying "life sucks" and is hard dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
yes and no. BTW I don't find "life sucks" in the psalms. Saying "life
sucks" means you are telling God that He was wrong for making you live;
but we all tell God that life is hard, I am sure, and in the end to His
honor of course.
> Is saying "God, I can't find you at times" dishonouring Him? (Psalms)
no
> Is a cry of pain and anguish about situation and circumstance
> dishonouring Him ? (Lamentations)
no
> Is saying "I want truth and justice" dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
no
> Is disrespecting those who seek to bring another person down
> dishonouring Him ? (Psalms)
depends on what you actually do; because if you curse a man which was
made in the image of God, how can you say you love God, who is more vast
that we can possibly imagine? Perhaps we just cursed a bit of God by
accident, so now what?!?!?! Oops, you can't take it back either.
We can't begin to comprehend the vastness of God. God is in things
right now that you and I will never know. So you should be careful when
cursing beings that were made in His image; as in the end, you just
might be cursing yourself.
> The Bible says all creation gives glory to God.
Indeed it does. It also says that men can choose to follow after good
and evil.
> Even if a song or music doesn't talk about God in verbatim, it still
> talks about the life we have as humans and that's something worth
> knowing about (especially when it talks about hard and nasty issues we
> have to face).
It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
"praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
> > Is it the music, or is it what's being said?
>
> Neither. As soon as you start factoring the style or form of music or
> what's been said as a "mark" of whether or not it's honouring God or
> not, you judge by the externals, not by what God sees in the heart
> (something he admonished Samuel for during David's anointing).
Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor God.
You can try to justify it all you like, saying, 'you shouldn't look at
how it looks on the outside,' but the whole time you are feeding that
music into your brain, it is building within you a structure of thought
and a pattern of behavior.
"You are what you eat" is the appropriate phrase, and there is nothing
that any of us can do about that. If you listen to a heavy metal band
shout "I HATE GOD! I HATE GOD!" all day and all night, then your life
will evolve to reflect a hatred of God, whether you actually feel that
way or not.
Because God has used scripture to hilight a dichotomy between the spirit
and the flesh, does not mean that the flesh is completely irrelevant.
Do not forget that our own flesh is sustained in the communion of the
Church. This was paid for by Christ with His own flesh. Each time our
flesh finds corruption again, it must be cleansed by the flesh of Christ
lest the communion of the Church disintegrate.
As Paul said, God has shown His awesome grace in the covering of our
sin, but should we take advantage of that grace in order to please
ourselves? Should we sin that grace may abound?
[Romans 5:21-6:7]
[21] Sin ruled by means of death. But God's
kindness now rules, and God has accepted us because
of Jesus Christ our Lord. This means that we will
have eternal life.
[6:1] What should we say? Should we keep on
sinning, so that God's wonderful kindness will show
up even better? [2] No, we should not! If we are dead
to sin, how can we go on sinning? [3] Don't you know
that all who share in Christ Jesus by being baptized
also share in his death? [4] When we were baptized,
we died and were buried with Christ. We were
baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ
was raised to life by the glory of God the Father.
[5] If we shared in Jesus' death by being
baptized, we will be raised to life with him. [6] We
know that the persons we used to be were nailed to
the cross with Jesus. This was done, so that our
sinful bodies would no longer be the slaves of sin.
[7] We know that sin doesn't have power over dead
people.
Romans 5:21-6:7 :: Contemporary English Version (CEV)
> As soon as you start thinking the music or what's been said IS more
> important than the integrity and honesty of the artist in conveying
> whatever message they want to communicate through the song, you head
> towards the heresy of certain types of music being demonic and evil and
> just, well, unChristian.
Not at all, but if you find a song that sings, "All Christians are
stupid. your god doesn't exist. [insert random blasphemy here]" then
the cold hard fact is that song does not worship God. There are a
million and one justifications we can come up with as to why to listen
to it, but just because we want to listen to it, cannot make blasphemy
into something that honors God.
And the idea that the physical world is only imaginary doesn't really
cut it. Jesus had to slog through this world to carry our cross, and we
can't even help a little bit to carry His?
Anyway, there is no 'type' of music that is evil or demonic. There are
just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence, immorality,
and open rebellion against God.
The trick is being mature enough in the faith to be able to discern
between them.
> > You set the cut where you want it, but remember your thoughts are a
> > product of what
> > you feed your head.
>
> I know this. So tell me why the music or what's been said is a GREATER
> testimony to Christ than the integrity and honesty and authenticity of
> the artist who writes, sings and produces the music ?
An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ. An artist
who sings good things is testifying in His favor.
Not all artists sing good things. Not all artists sing bad things
either.
It is not "just because you sing" that you are honoring God, because if
you are dishonoring Him with the lyric then you are promoting the
dishonor of God, and coming against what He has built. "Blessed is the
man that does not walk in the council of those hostile to God" advised
David, and it is good advice!
> Think about it.
>
> lawrence
thank you, that's good advice.
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
Psalm 69.
<snip to point>
>>The Bible says all creation gives glory to God.
>
>
> Indeed it does. It also says that men can choose to follow after good
> and evil.
This doesn't make certain bands demonic.
>
>>Even if a song or music doesn't talk about God in verbatim, it still
>>talks about the life we have as humans and that's something worth
>>knowing about (especially when it talks about hard and nasty issues we
>>have to face).
>
>
> It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
> "praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
And do you understand WHY they are saying such stuff ?
It's almost coming across that you're saying death metal and goths are
demonic..
>>>Is it the music, or is it what's being said?
>>
>>Neither. As soon as you start factoring the style or form of music or
>>what's been said as a "mark" of whether or not it's honouring God or
>>not, you judge by the externals, not by what God sees in the heart
>>(something he admonished Samuel for during David's anointing).
>
>
> Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
> worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor God.
The Bible advocates rape in parts (if you choose to take the
TrueChristian perspective on the world).
> You can try to justify it all you like, saying, 'you shouldn't look at
> how it looks on the outside,' but the whole time you are feeding that
> music into your brain, it is building within you a structure of thought
> and a pattern of behavior.
Which is ?
> "You are what you eat" is the appropriate phrase, and there is nothing
> that any of us can do about that. If you listen to a heavy metal band
> shout "I HATE GOD! I HATE GOD!" all day and all night, then your life
> will evolve to reflect a hatred of God, whether you actually feel that
> way or not.
Really ?
That means people don't have a choice in how they intepret what they
listen to. That means people are automatons and whatever we get fed
wWILL result in our lives, regardless of the personal, moral and
intellectual choices we make.
Perhaps by listening to a band that shouts "I hate God" you might gain
an understanding as to WHY they hate God (and more often than not, it's
due to the Church being self-righteous when the Church is imperfect).
It remains YOUR choice whether you choose to follow them in their lyrics
and rant against God, or you choose to listen to it to understand WHY
they are saying what they're saying. Music has a message, after all.
> Because God has used scripture to hilight a dichotomy between the spirit
> and the flesh, does not mean that the flesh is completely irrelevant.
There is NO dichotomy. There never was a dichotomy.
> Do not forget that our own flesh is sustained in the communion of the
> Church. This was paid for by Christ with His own flesh. Each time our
> flesh finds corruption again, it must be cleansed by the flesh of Christ
> lest the communion of the Church disintegrate.
Eh ? Without the Christianese jargon, and in English please.
What is worship ?
> There are a million and one justifications we can come up with as to why to listen
> to it, but just because we want to listen to it, cannot make blasphemy
> into something that honors God.
So bad music is about blasphemy and heresy ?
> And the idea that the physical world is only imaginary doesn't really
> cut it. Jesus had to slog through this world to carry our cross, and we
> can't even help a little bit to carry His?
I'm not suggesting otherwise.
> Anyway, there is no 'type' of music that is evil or demonic. There are
> just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence, immorality,
> and open rebellion against God.
Demonic artists ?
Please clarify and expand on this statement.
> The trick is being mature enough in the faith to be able to discern
> between them.
Which is where the whole idol meat saga talked about by Paul regarding
those who are weak in conscience comes into play.
>>>You set the cut where you want it, but remember your thoughts are a
>>>product of what
>>>you feed your head.
>>
>>I know this. So tell me why the music or what's been said is a GREATER
>>testimony to Christ than the integrity and honesty and authenticity of
>>the artist who writes, sings and produces the music ?
>
>
> An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ. An artist
> who sings good things is testifying in His favor.
An artist singing evil things is testifying to what they know of
humanity. Nothing more, nothing less.
Humanity is many and varied. Not all bits should be celebrated, yet
likewise, not all issues should be censored or merely passed over in an
attempt to silence discussion on the real issue.
> Not all artists sing good things. Not all artists sing bad things
> either.
Still, they are trying to communicate something. What is that <something>?
> It is not "just because you sing" that you are honoring God, because if
> you are dishonoring Him with the lyric then you are promoting the
> dishonor of God, and coming against what He has built.
So you're telling me an artist who has integrity in their work and life
cannot be used by God, regardless of what they sing?
(Cue: the American Idol entrants, and the Aussie Idol winner, Guy
Sebastian, an open professing Christian who sings top 40 pop songs)
> "Blessed is the man that does not walk in the council of those hostile to God" advised
> David, and it is good advice!
Ah, but the council is not the public marketplace, and most artists are
busking their wares in the public marketplace, not being used by
counsellors and psychologists as means of gaining advice and guidance
for people's lives.
lawrence
Mark Tindall
> > Rubbish. Everyone has a God given mind to discern with and spirit
>=mind.
>
> The Spirit and the mind are indeed separate and cannot be >interchanged.
Then tell me what spirit is according to your view ...and how it fits into
any psychological model.
Mark Tindall
> It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
> "praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
Christian art CAN mention that if it is a true depiction of the words of a
character.
> Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
> worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor >God.
It can if it is the authentic voice of the Other. Art is not bound by
fundamentalist piety.
> the whole time you are feeding that music into your brain, it is building
within you a structure of thought
> and a pattern of behavior.
Garbage! Most Christian musicians over the last 2000 years have listened to
a wide variety of music of all topics and themes.
> Because God has used scripture to hilight a dichotomy between the > spirit
and the flesh
It doesn't exist except in the platonic aberration of fundamentalist
pietists.
> Not at all, but if you find a song that sings, "All Christians are
> stupid. your god doesn't exist. [insert random blasphemy here]" then >
the cold hard fact is that song does not worship God.
But is is still art and may be worthy when taken in context with the rest of
the artwork and the artist's lifelone body of work.
> Anyway, there is no 'type' of music that is evil or demonic.
Correct.
> There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and
> violence, immorality, and open rebellion against God.
A Christian artist may also portray this rebellion as it is true.
> An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ.
Not necessarily. Rembrandt portrayed the blinding ofd Samson which was not
a good thing ...but it was true thing portrayed by a Christian artist.
> An artist who sings good things is testifying in His favor.
Not necessarily.
Mark Tindall
> Actually, I spent a year as the worship leader of a small Baptist church
> not far from the seminary. Generally we extolled God's virtues, gave
> thanks for certain things and also all things, sang thematic hymns that >
sedgewayed between the worship and the message, and prayed >together.
If it has CONTENT then it that is a good thing.
> how He reigns in majesty "Majesty!"
A great example of a Jesus Jingle bcause it NEVER praises God or worships
God!!!! It is a plea to worship but one never gets around to it in the
lyric. Look at the lyric. Analyse the lyric in full.
Mark Tindall
> Perhaps by listening to a band that shouts "I hate God" you might gain
> an understanding as to WHY they hate God (and more often than not, it's
> due to the Church being self-righteous when the Church is imperfect).
Lawrence, are you advocating the use of one's God given brain to understand
one's culture????
> > Because God has used scripture to hilight a dichotomy between the spirit
> > and the flesh, does not mean that the flesh is completely irrelevant.
>
> There is NO dichotomy. There never was a dichotomy.
I know that, you know that, but do platonic pietists know that?
> What is worship ?
The Pente Mantra?
> So bad music is about blasphemy and heresy ?
Or just the woefully bad music from artists like the Legendary Stardust
Cowboy? (Ask me for a mp3 if you are game enough to listen)
> Demonic artists ?
Like Alice Cooper ...a Christian who plays golf with Pat Boone.
DOH!
> (Cue: the American Idol entrants, and the Aussie Idol winner, Guy
> Sebastian, an open professing Christian who sings top 40 pop >songs)
Obviously he is not a Trew Kristyun and will burn in hell for singing
secular humanist songs! ;-)
Mark Tindall
> as long as it is not screaming worship!
> Homer Simpson on the Bible : "too preachy !"
That's why I like the nice 'n' easy Gregorian chants ...try finding those in
a contemporary church service!
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
> "(: Lawrence Meckan :)" wrote:
>
>
>
>>Perhaps by listening to a band that shouts "I hate God" you might gain
>>an understanding as to WHY they hate God (and more often than not, it's
>>due to the Church being self-righteous when the Church is imperfect).
>
> Lawrence, are you advocating the use of one's God given brain to understand
> one's culture????
The men of Issachar did it, and were commended as following God in the
Bible.
1 Chron 12:32
"men of Issachar, who understood the times and knew what Israel should
do-200 chiefs, with all their relatives under their command;"
IOW, yes.
>>So bad music is about blasphemy and heresy ?
>
> Or just the woefully bad music from artists like the Legendary Stardust
> Cowboy? (Ask me for a mp3 if you are game enough to listen)
I'm not game. Sorry.
>>Demonic artists ?
>
> Like Alice Cooper ...a Christian who plays golf with Pat Boone.
>
> DOH!
>
>>(Cue: the American Idol entrants, and the Aussie Idol winner, Guy
>>Sebastian, an open professing Christian who sings top 40 pop >songs)
>
>
> Obviously he is not a Trew Kristyun and will burn in hell for singing
> secular humanist songs! ;-)
Exactly.
lawrence
Mark Tindall
> >>So bad music is about blasphemy and heresy ?
> >
> > Or just the woefully bad music from artists like the Legendary Stardust
> > Cowboy? (Ask me for a mp3 if you are game enough to listen)
>
> I'm not game. Sorry.
Chicken! ;-) See the post Beautiful Music.
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
Majesty,- worship His majesty,
unto Jesus be glory, honor, and praise,-
Majesty, Kingdom authority,-
flow from His throne, unto His own,
His anthem raise!
My take-
"Worship the King, give Him glory honor and praise!
"His authority extends over we who believe in Him,
"and will extend outward into all the world!"
It even goes on to praise Jesus for rising to glory, from death!
It evokes the majesty of God, which is the whole point. If you have a
sermon that involves God's awesome reign, then singing this song before
it will help them to remember the message three weeks later when they
have to rely on God to get over something.
A familiar strain of music tickles at the edge of your mind, and it
comes back, yeah, that sermon about the majesty of God! He is so big I
don't have to worry about getting over this thing, as long as I am with
Him. So he lifts up a prayer, and thus church did what church was
supposed to do: provide material for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit
to lead you on through the week according to God's will.
Some songs are like that, made very easy to remember for that very
purpose. To attach to teachings, sermons, or even "randomly" to the
sort of lessons learned in everyday life.
When that teaching (that you once heard but dimly remember) becomes
necessary to your walk, sure enough, the Holy Spirit will play some
familiar song in your ear, and walk you right into what you need.
Mark Tindall
> > > how He reigns in majesty "Majesty!"
> >
> > A great example of a Jesus Jingle bcause it NEVER praises God >>or
worships God!!!! It is a plea to worship but one never gets >>around to it
in the lyric. Look at the lyric. Analyse the lyric in full.
>
> Majesty,- worship His majesty,
What does the term "majesty" refer to?
- God
-Jesus
- the attribute of either God or jesus?
It is not clear!
> unto Jesus be glory, honor, and praise,-
i.e. A PLEA for you to give Jesus glory, honour and praise.
> Majesty, Kingdom authority,-
Here the term "majesty" seems to indicate an attribute of God (not Jesus).
> flow from His throne, unto His own,
Whose throne??? God's or Jesus' throne?
> His anthem raise!
i.e. a PLEA to raise an anthem to either God or Jesus (the object of the
anthem is is uncertain!)
So WHRERE in this is ANY glory, honour and praise????
There is NONE!!!!
It only says that authority flows from either god's or Jesus' tyhrone. that
may be construed as praise ...but not particularly exciting.
It is a very badly written lyric.
> "Worship the King, give Him glory honor and praise!
Good. Which King? When does this giving of glory, honour and praise ever
happen???? Not in the song!
> "His authority extends over we who believe in Him,
> "and will extend outward into all the world!"
Good. One minor piece of praise. Whoopee!
> It even goes on to praise Jesus for rising to glory, from death!
Where is the praise?????
- "So exalt lift up on high
'lift up" means crucify
> the name of Jesus
Jesus who died
Now glorified
King of all kings"
If it means exalting Jesus' name then it is a PLEA that is NEVER realised in
the lyric.
> It evokes the majesty of God, which is the whole point.
No it doesn't! Not by any stretch of the imagination. This is basic English
101.
A good melody does not mean a good (or worthwhile) lyric.
It has very little content. it is a CALL to praise which never happens in
the lyric.
Use your God-given brain!!!!
psalmsmith
If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these promptings when
God chooses that way to lead you next time. In the meantime, I'm just a
messenger reporting on one aspect of how God sometimes leads me.
He uses well-known songs to trigger deeper memories of teachings as they
become necessary.
I am sorry if you find that offensive, but that's just how it is. Take
it or leave it.
Mark Tindall
God is not speaking to me through you unless God is a brain dead idiot.
Speaking of which, why do I have to leave my brain at the church door and
sing crappy Jesus Jingles that do not say anything and pretend that I am
praising and worshipping God by offering him crap????
> He uses well-known songs to trigger deeper memories of teachings > as they
become necessary.
The Vegemite song and "The Pub With No Beer" are well known in Australia
...but that does not mean that they are good songs to praise and worship
God.
If I were to sing "Majesty" I would be treating God like an idiot. God
deserves better. Christians attending a church service deserve better. Some
of us actually look at the lyric and don't bother to sing if it says nothing
of any importance.
Asking people to praise and worship is NOT the same as actually praising and
worshipping. Most praise and worship leaders mistake the two as the same
thing.
Because most churches have kicked out the real artists we only have Kristyun
Krap left in the church services. Since most of the church service is about
singing this foul smelling crap I don't bother to go. I don't like having
to leave my brain and artistic talent at the door.
Rowland Croucher
"psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
news:psalmsmith-A1C46...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
Psalmsmith: a question for you (and others):
Which of today's songs/hymns will still be popular in, say, 30-40 years'
time?
(I have a list, and will be interested to compare it with yours).
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/
Mike Barefield
"Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:40cedb1b$0$1239$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I have no idea and I don't think it matters. The songs I grew up with
(Baptist Church), were horrorable for the most part when I look back. The
music was written from probably 1850 - 1930. The music style was not
familar, hard to sing, phrases that had lost their meaning. Also, some of
them were just full of bad dotrine.
However, I suspect the people who sung them when they were new, loved them
and worshipped God with them as we do today with the new stuff that is
coming out.
As long as the words express a love for God, praise, worship, a call to
worship, a call to evangelize, etc. and people will enter into singing and
worshipping with that music, it is good and should be used.
I would hope / pray that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit will continue to
produce new, wonderful music as long as anyone still loves God on the face
of the earth.
Just my thoughts...
Mark Tindall
> > Which of today's songs/hymns will still be popular in, say, 30-40
>> years' time?
> > (I have a list, and will be interested to compare it with yours).
>
> I have no idea and I don't think it matters. The songs I grew up with
> (Baptist Church), were horrorable for the most part when I look back.
>.... phrases that had lost their meaning. Also, some of
> them were just full of bad dotrine.
Sounds like today's Jesus Jingles!
> As long as the words express a love for God, praise, worship, a call > to
worship, a call to evangelize, etc. and people will enter into singing > and
worshipping with that music, it is good and should be used.
What if you go to a church service and you never hear any praise or worship
because every Jesus Jingle sung there is a call to praise or worship and not
real real praise or worship?
The word :"awesome" in churches is becoming like the word "groovy" was to
the 60s ....sickening!
Mike Barefield
The Bible says to sing in the Spirit and the understanding. It also says
that we who worship will do so in Spirit and Truth.
There is much music out there today that supports that direction.
>
> The word :"awesome" in churches is becoming like the word "groovy" was to
> the 60s ....sickening!
>
>
>
Mark I have seen you post along these lines quite a bit lately. You must
have some serious issues from your perspective, but I don't see it.
There are wonderful songs with great music out there today. These songs
allow people to express their heart of love for God and to enter into His
presence.
Traditionally the music of the day has had overtones of popular music, which
I think is great - people can relate. If the lyrics express proper doctrine
and love for God it is a winner.
Sorry you see so many issues. I have love the last 30 years of popular
Christian praise and worship as it has evolved. Not all of it, but much of
it.
Mark Tindall
> > What if you go to a church service and you never hear any praise or
> worship
> > because every Jesus Jingle sung there is a call to praise or worship and
> not
> > real real praise or worship?
>
> The Bible says to sing in the Spirit and the understanding.
What if there is no understanding" in any of the Jesus Jingles?
I've been to church services where that is the case.
> It also says that we who worship will do so in Spirit and Truth.
What if there is no truth in any of the the Jesus Jingles?
I've been to church services where that is the case.
> There is much music out there today that supports that direction.
Not chosen in the churches I've visited locally.
> > The word :"awesome" in churches is becoming like the word >>"groovy" was
to the 60s ....sickening!
>
> Mark I have seen you post along these lines quite a bit lately. You
> must have some serious issues from your perspective, but I don't >see it.
Why do you assume it is MY problem?
The church has a major problem with art!
Artists puke at what they see in some contemporary churches.
I posted "Song, Interpretation, and Meaning" which highlights some of the
problems ...but Christians don't know the problem and therefore cannot
address it! The assume everything is ok. it isn't! Most of the Christian
artists have fled for their lives away from the church. Why sing Kriostyun
Kitsch every week????
> There are wonderful songs with great music out there today.
Name 'em ... and give the lyrics that I can analyse. ill demonstrate where
they are faulty in construction and are neither praise nor worship.
> These songs allow people to express their heart of love for God and >to
enter into His presence.
To the contrary, the majority are CALLS to praise and worship but never get
around to either praising or worshipping ...as I clearly demonstrated with
"Majesty".
> If the lyrics express proper doctrine and love for God it is a winner.
"IF" ... the IF means something. Woirds have meaning ... a fact that most
Christians fail to see in the lyrics that they sing!
> Sorry you see so many issues. I have love the last 30 years of
>popular Christian praise and worship as it has evolved.
I am revolted by most of it as it is "praise that is not praise" ...a 1000
calls to praise where you never get to praise God at all. It must be the
work of the Devil! It is the only rational solution.
Mike Barefield
>
> > > What if you go to a church service and you never hear any praise or
> > worship
> > > because every Jesus Jingle sung there is a call to praise or worship
and
> > not
> > > real real praise or worship?
> >
> > The Bible says to sing in the Spirit and the understanding.
>
>
> What if there is no understanding" in any of the Jesus Jingles?
>
> I've been to church services where that is the case.
>
>
> > It also says that we who worship will do so in Spirit and Truth.
>
> What if there is no truth in any of the the Jesus Jingles?
>
> I've been to church services where that is the case.
>
>
> > There is much music out there today that supports that direction.
>
> Not chosen in the churches I've visited locally.
>
>
> > > The word :"awesome" in churches is becoming like the word >>"groovy"
was
> to the 60s ....sickening!
> >
> > Mark I have seen you post along these lines quite a bit lately. You
> > must have some serious issues from your perspective, but I don't >see
it.
>
>
> Why do you assume it is MY problem?
I don't if it is "your" problem. I just know you have raised the issue.
I don't see a problem from where I am.
>
> The church has a major problem with art!
>
> Artists puke at what they see in some contemporary churches.
What do artists have to do with worshipping God? Why is their perspective an
issue?
>
> I posted "Song, Interpretation, and Meaning" which highlights some of the
> problems ...but Christians don't know the problem and therefore cannot
> address it! The assume everything is ok. it isn't! Most of the
Christian
> artists have fled for their lives away from the church. Why sing
Kriostyun
> Kitsch every week????
>
>
>
> > There are wonderful songs with great music out there today.
>
> Name 'em ... and give the lyrics that I can analyse. ill demonstrate
where
> they are faulty in construction and are neither praise nor worship.
No thanks. I don't care to go through it. I understand that you have your
issues.
Mark Tindall
> > The church has a major problem with art!
> > Artists puke at what they see in some contemporary churches.
>
> What do artists have to do with worshipping God? Why is their
> perspective an issue?
In the Temple the artists were the one's doing the music. They were also
given a tithe for their work.
As the artists have fled for their creative lives from the church you are
left with the jingle creators and Kristyun Kitsch every week.
I can't worship or praise God with crap.
Mike Barefield
> "Mike Barefield" wrote:
>
>
> > > The church has a major problem with art!
> > > Artists puke at what they see in some contemporary churches.
> >
> > What do artists have to do with worshipping God? Why is their
> > perspective an issue?
>
>
> In the Temple the artists were the one's doing the music. They were also
> given a tithe for their work.
Their lives were decicated to God and to His glory. Is that still the case?
>
> As the artists have fled for their creative lives from the church you are
> left with the jingle creators and Kristyun Kitsch every week.
I guess I don't know any Christian artists who have deserted the church, so
if they are leaving, I cannot tell it.
Another point however, is that art is in the eye of the beholder. All of
your concerns my be in your eye.
Mike Bugal
news:40cedb1b$0$1239$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> time?
Some of the best songs today only have their choruses being used in many church
services and song books. I think that the entire song in many cases will endure,
but the "chorus" usage will disappear. Rich Mullins' songs. "Awesome God" and
"Step By Step" are good examples of this. So is "We Bring The Sacrifice Of
Praise". But that may not be true. In our hymnal Andre Crouch's "My Tribute"
(1971) consists only of the chorus part. That these songs are being published in
hymnals probably means that they will be around for a long time... since many
churches tend to keep the same hymnal for a long, long time. Here are some
others that I think will be around:
"How Majestic Is Your Name"
"He Is Exalted"
"As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
"Shout To The Lord"
"The Heart of Worship"
His and Yours,
Mike Bugal
Heartland Christian Ministries
http://www.hcm2.org
Mark Tindall
> > Which of today's songs/hymns will still be popular in, say, 30-40 years'
> > time?
>
> Rich Mullins' songs. "Awesome God"
Puke. A call to praise. "Awesome, awesome, totally awesome!" ...
sickening like the word groovy in the 60s. Reminds me of Paul Simon's
"Feelin' Groovy" ...a song he wishes he'd never written.
> "We Bring The Sacrifice Of Praise".
Keeps talking about praise but never actually gets to doing any praise
within the lyric. Like most Jesus Jingles.
>In our hymnal Andre Crouch's "My Tribute"
> (1971) consists only of the chorus part.
That is praise! To God be the glory for the things he hath done. A pity
Andre was busted for coke possession ... but we won't mention that. ;-)
> "As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to god.
Mike Bugal
> "Mike Bugal" wrote:
>
> > > Which of today's songs/hymns will still be popular in, say, 30-40 years'
> > > time?
> >
> > Rich Mullins' songs. "Awesome God"
>
> Puke. A call to praise. "Awesome, awesome, totally awesome!" ...
> sickening like the word groovy in the 60s. Reminds me of Paul Simon's
> "Feelin' Groovy" ...a song he wishes he'd never written.
>
>
> > "We Bring The Sacrifice Of Praise".
>
> Keeps talking about praise but never actually gets to doing any praise
> within the lyric. Like most Jesus Jingles.
You must never have heard the whole song:
Lord, we’ve come into this house
And we’ve gathered in Your Name
It’s a privilege to be here
We’re so very glad we came.
We can sense Your holy presence
And the warmth of Your embrace
As we lift our hearts in worship
We bring the sacrifice of praise.
[Chorus] We bring the sacrifice of praise
Into the house of the Lord
We bring the sacrifice of praise
Into the house of the Lord
And we offer up to You
The sacrifices of thanksgiving
And we offer up to You
The sacrifices of joy
Lord, You’ve taught us in Your Word
To give thanks in everything
You’ll provide a place of refuge
Beneath the shadow of Your wings
So we purpose to obey You
And to walk in all Your ways
Lord, in every situation
We’ll bring the sacrifice of praise.
[Chorus]
>
> >In our hymnal Andre Crouch's "My Tribute"
> > (1971) consists only of the chorus part.
>
> That is praise! To God be the glory for the things he hath done. A pity
> Andre was busted for coke possession ... but we won't mention that. ;-)
>
That a man may have fallen doesn't negate the greatness of what he once did...
or may yet do. That should be of comfort to one at your point in your spiritual
life.
> > "As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
>
> Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to god.
>
Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the relationship between
Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the Bride), so that attribution is
natural.
Mark Tindall
> > > "We Bring The Sacrifice Of Praise".
> >
> > Keeps talking about praise but never actually gets to doing any >>praise
within the lyric. Like most Jesus Jingles.
>
> You must never have heard the whole song:
Unfortunately I've heard it many times in church ... it still makes me
retch.
> [Chorus] We bring the sacrifice of praise ..
> The sacrifices of thanksgiving ...
> The sacrifices of joy ...
Why are praise, thanksgiving and joy a sacrifice?
It makes no sense.
> > > "As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
> > Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to >God.
>
> Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
> relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
>Bride), so that attribution is natural.
If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
Song of Solomon
1.. "Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better
than wine." A fitting beginning for a pornographic poem. 1:2
2.. "He shall lie all night betwixt my breasts." And to think the
fundamentalists complain about prime time TV. 1:13
3.. "I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was
sweet to my taste." Gosh, is this a biblical description of fellatio, or
what? 2:3
4.. "His left hand is under my head and his right hand doth embrace me."
Hmm, I wonder if his left hand knows what his right hand is doing. 2:6
5.. Our heroine takes her lover into her mother's bedroom and asks not to
be disturbed "till he please." 3:4-5
6.. "Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins." I'm not sure
that I get this one. Were the breasts really big, did they jiggle around a
lot, or what? 4:5
7.. "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door, and my bowels
were moved for him." Is the "hole of the door" her clitoris and the "bowel
movement" an orgasm? I hope so, or this verse is really disgusting. 5:4
8.. "My hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling
myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. I opened to my beloved; but my beloved
had withdrawn himself." 5:5-6
9.. More filthy talk about navels, bellies, thighs, and breasts. 7:1-3
10.. "How pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! ... Thy breasts shall
be as clusters of the vine." Sounds like Penthouse waxing poetic. 7:6-8
11.. "Let us get up early to the vineyards ... there will I give thee my
loves." Sounds like they're going to do it in the vineyards. 7:12
12.. "His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should
embrace me." 8:3
13.. "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts ... But my breasts
[are] like towers." 8:8-10
from http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/sex/long.htm
Mike Bugal
> "Mike Bugal" wrote:
>
> > > > "We Bring The Sacrifice Of Praise".
> > >
> > > Keeps talking about praise but never actually gets to doing any >>praise
> within the lyric. Like most Jesus Jingles.
> >
> > You must never have heard the whole song:
>
> Unfortunately I've heard it many times in church ... it still makes me
> retch.
>
>
> > [Chorus] We bring the sacrifice of praise ..
> > The sacrifices of thanksgiving ...
> > The sacrifices of joy ...
>
> Why are praise, thanksgiving and joy a sacrifice?
>
> It makes no sense.
"The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and
the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of
hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of *them that
shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD*. For I will
cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD."
(Jeremiah 33:11)
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that
is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." (Hebrews 13:15)
His and yours,
Mike Bugal
> "Mike Bugal" wrote:
>
> > > > "As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
> > > Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to >God.
> >
> > Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
> > relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
> >Bride), so that attribution is natural.
>
>
> If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
You do understand what the word "allegory" means, don't you?
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
> "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:40d0347d$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
>>"Mike Bugal" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>"As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
>>>>
>>>>Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to >God.
>>>
>>>Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
>>>relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
>>>Bride), so that attribution is natural.
>>
>>
>>If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
>
>
> You do understand what the word "allegory" means, don't you?
Even if it's allegorical, it's still naughty :)
lawrence
Brenda G. Kent
Christians here.......so nice to hear from one who is not a "Stepford"
Christian!
Blessings
Bren
--
********************************************************
"Knowledge without wisdom is like stacking books
on the back of an ass"
Old Japanese saying.
Come visit my webpage at http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~wt211
*********************************************************
psalmsmith
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> >
> > If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these promptings when
> > God chooses that way to lead you next time.
>
> God is not speaking to me through you unless God is a brain dead idiot.
> Speaking of which, why do I have to leave my brain at the church door and
> sing crappy Jesus Jingles that do not say anything and pretend that I am
> praising and worshipping God by offering him crap????
I didn't ask you to hear anything *I* was saying, I just said that if
you don't like this method that God has chosen to lead myself and
countless other people -- then next time you see it, ignore it.
> > He uses well-known songs to trigger deeper memories of teachings > as they
> become necessary.
>
> The Vegemite song and "The Pub With No Beer" are well known in Australia
> ...but that does not mean that they are good songs to praise and worship
> God.
I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender stocks
his bar.
> If I were to sing "Majesty" I would be treating God like an idiot. God
> deserves better. Christians attending a church service deserve better. Some
> of us actually look at the lyric and don't bother to sing if it says nothing
> of any importance.
So, you own God now, that you can dictate to the rest of us what He does
and does not like in the way of worship music? You complain about
conservative intolerance, and now you dictate the kinds of worship music
God is and is not allowed to like?
I hate to tell you, but you are more intolerant than any ultra
right-wing radical conservative I have ever met. I mean, even the Jerry
Fallwells, Pat Robertsons of this world eventually come to a point where
"that's between you and God."
> Asking people to praise and worship is NOT the same as actually praising and
> worshipping. Most praise and worship leaders mistake the two as the same
> thing.
Most praise and worship leaders use music as a tool to help the
congregation come to a stillness in their hearts where they can openly
offer praise and worship to God.
> Because most churches have kicked out the real artists we only have Kristyun
> Krap left in the church services. Since most of the church service is about
> singing this foul smelling crap I don't bother to go. I don't like having
> to leave my brain and artistic talent at the door.
>
I think the more likely story is that /you/ were asked to leave a church
for acting all foul and disrespectful like you do here, and that you
just transferred your experience globally, abd just told yourself this
church asked you to leave 'because you loved Christ too much."
The hard, cold truth is that a lot of church hymns that maybe you don't
like, have helped millions upon millions of people grow into a closer
relationship with God.
What blows my mind, is that I haven't seen you say thing one against the
fella who wants to use Ozzy Osbourne in his worship services, but if I
don't know anything else before I leave here, I'll know that you sure do
hate "Majesty!"
I don't know. It looks to me like you are a very angry person who likes
his anger more than he likes God. Of course we all experience a time
like that -- maybe not with anger but something else -- but it's the
same concept.
God keep you, and show you the way out of this wilderness.
Mark Tindall
> > > > > "We Bring The Sacrifice Of Praise".
> > > > Keeps talking about praise but never actually gets to doing any
>>>>>praise within the lyric. Like most Jesus Jingles.
> > > You must never have heard the whole song:
> > Unfortunately I've heard it many times in church ... it still makes me
> > retch.
> > > [Chorus] We bring the sacrifice of praise ..
> > > The sacrifices of thanksgiving ...
> > > The sacrifices of joy ...
> > Why are praise, thanksgiving and joy a sacrifice?
> > It makes no sense.
>
> (Jeremiah 33:11)
> (Hebrews 13:15)
It still makes no sense. The song never gets around to do what is requested
and praise, thanksgiving and joy come from the inner overflow of one's
being. It is no sacrifice but a celebration.
Mark Tindall
> > > Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
> > > relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
> > >Bride), so that attribution is natural.
> >
> > If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
>
> You do understand what the word "allegory" means, don't you?
As an artist I probably have more of an idea than you.
Mark Tindall
> >>>>>"As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
> >>>>Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to >God.
> >>>Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
> >>>relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
> >>>Bride), so that attribution is natural.
> >>If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
> > You do understand what the word "allegory" means, don't you?
>
> Even if it's allegorical, it's still naughty :)
Yep!
psalmsmith
> > Demonic artists ?
>
> Like Alice Cooper ...a Christian who plays golf with Pat Boone.
>
> DOH!
http://www.jesusjournal.com/jj_testimony/cooper.html
"I used to celebrate moral decay, the
decadence of it," he admitted. "I can look back on
what I did then and what I'm doing now and they're
two different things. But at the time I was the
poster boy for moral decay, you know. So yeah, I've
got a lot to be forgiven for...out of ignorance, I
thought I was doing the right thing. I was totally in
agreement that every guy should sleep with every girl
and drink as much as they can. I don't believe that
now. I don't believe in it, because I see how
destructive it is."
Alice Cooper
Mark Tindall
> Mark...you are such a refreshing change from some of the more
> conservative Christians here.......so nice to hear from one who is not > a
"Stepford" Christian!
The whole point of my comments on this thread is to get people to think
about what they do in their relationship with God.
Words have meaning. All I've looked at in my comments are whether the lyric
is praise and / or worship according to a dictionary definition. (This is a
very superficial and shallow approach to what an artist does with a whole
work of art) When I first stated that many Christians say it doesn't matter
what you say (read previous posts) the cry was "Oh, yes it does m,atter what
you say!" When you point out that what they say doesn't make sense then
the cry changes to "It just matters what's in your heart." You can't have
it BOTH ways!
This is linked to why I don't attend church.
The songs are usually sappy and I have a huge cd collection of much better
songs I'd rather listen to and sing along to.
The sermons are one-way communiction and one doesn't get to dialogue about
the content. I learn faster fronm reading. The pastor can send me out a
copy of his sermon and could read it in a minute.
The prayers are made up and not spontaneous from the heart ... nor in a
closet as Jesus said.
10 minute weekly chat about the weather over instant coffee (I prefer the
brewed stuff) isn't any type of community ...or reward for being bored to
death for the past hour ... or up to two hours depending on the
denomination.
God is everywhere and not just in church on a Sunday.
What's left in a church service that would be a benefit to me?
Songs that aren't art are not a benefit to me.
Teaching delivered in an inappropriate style is not a benefit to me..
Insincere prayers are not a benefit to me.
Superficial chat is not a benefit to me.
At least in the Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox churches there is usual a
lot of visual art that you can look at if you are bored. Most churches
don't even have that.
For all this I get to pay 10% of my gross wage and add on more money in the
form of "offerings".
Basically I'm being screwed on a weeklky basis in church.
I now stay at home on a Sunday and save 10%
Church is unconnected with daily life.
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
> > "praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
>
> Christian art CAN mention that if it is a true depiction of the words of a
> character.
Music that curses God, is /not/ Christian. I don't care how much you
try and justify it. That's just the way it is. You can like it, or you
can live with it. But asking God to approve of music that curses Him is
just not going to happen. I'm sorry.
> > Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
> > worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor >God.
>
> It can if it is the authentic voice of the Other. Art is not bound by
> fundamentalist piety.
And neither is it bound by liberalist intolerance.
> > the whole time you are feeding that music into your brain, it is building
> within you a structure of thought
> > and a pattern of behavior.
>
> Garbage! Most Christian musicians over the last 2000 years have listened to
> a wide variety of music of all topics and themes.
Likewise, most Christians have watched the news and seen all kinds of
atrocities on television. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that
your thought-life arises out of what you feed your brain. I thought
everyone over the age of 12 knew that. Not only is it obvious, it's
basic common sense. Your thoughts come from what you feed your brain.
Just because a 400 pound man might holler and scream denials that eating
a gallon of ice cream every day won't hurt him, nevertheless a year from
now he will weigh 500 pounds. That's basic physiology. The fact that
your thought-life reflects what you feed your brain, is basic
psychology; along the same lines as the ice cream example above.
> > Because God has used scripture to hilight a dichotomy between the > spirit
> and the flesh
>
> It doesn't exist except in the platonic aberration of fundamentalist
> pietists.
Paul found plenty to distinguish between flesh and spirit.
> > Not at all, but if you find a song that sings, "All Christians are
> > stupid. your god doesn't exist. [insert random blasphemy here]" then >
> the cold hard fact is that song does not worship God.
>
> But is is still art and may be worthy when taken in context with the rest of
> the artwork and the artist's lifelone body of work.
So let me get this straight; you would rather hear Marilyn Manson's
"Anti-Christ Superstar" in a church than the venerable church-hymn
"Majesty!"
Hmm, as shocking as that is, somehow I'm not really suprised.
> > Anyway, there is no 'type' of music that is evil or demonic.
>
> Correct.
>
>
> > There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and
> > violence, immorality, and open rebellion against God.
>
> A Christian artist may also portray this rebellion as it is true.
Of course. I never said otherwise.
> > An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ.
>
> Not necessarily. Rembrandt portrayed the blinding ofd Samson which was not
> a good thing ...but it was true thing portrayed by a Christian artist.
The context of that story is a description of God's holiness and grace.
Rembrant was not painting something evil, he was painting something
holy, that had a chapter on what was evil.
Someone who sings a song because he hates God and Christ, and means to
get other people to hate Him too, is not even remotely the same thing,
and that should be patently obvious.
> > An artist who sings good things is testifying in His favor.
>
> Not necessarily.
>
Perhaps not from the POV of someone who would rather see music from Ozzy
and Marilyn in a church than the hymns; but I assure you that is not a
POV shared by God.
Mark Tindall
> > > If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these promptings
when
> > > God chooses that way to lead you next time.
> >
> > God is not speaking to me through you unless God is a brain dead idiot.
> > Speaking of which, why do I have to leave my brain at the church door
and
> > sing crappy Jesus Jingles that do not say anything and pretend that I am
> > praising and worshipping God by offering him crap????
>
> I didn't ask you to hear anything *I* was saying, I just said that if
> you don't like this method that God has chosen to lead myself and
> countless other people -- then next time you see it, ignore it.
That is like implying that God uses Nazi concentration camps (because some
people became Christian in these camps) and that I should ignore them next
time they happen (like the German people did)
Singing Jesus Jingles instead of good art is like eating stale rancid bread
when a banquet is laid out in front of you.
> > > He uses well-known songs to trigger deeper memories of
>>> teachings as they become necessary.
> >
> > The Vegemite song and "The Pub With No Beer" are well known in
>>Australia ...but that does not mean that they are good songs to >>praise
and worship God.
>
> I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender >stocks
his bar.
I God has a LOT to do with it! Jesus turned the water intio wine. Its a
story in the bible.
> > If I were to sing "Majesty" I would be treating God like an idiot. God
> > deserves better. Christians attending a church service deserve >>better.
Some of us actually look at the lyric and don't bother to sing if >> it says
nothing of any importance.
>
> So, you own God now, that you can dictate to the rest of us what He >does
and does not like in the way of worship music?
No. I refuse to treat God like an idiot even if the rest of the church
congregation treats God like an idiot.
> You complain about conservative intolerance, and now you dictate
> the kinds of worship music God is and is not allowed to like?
Who says Jesus Jingles ("worship music") are any type of worship or praise?
That is the point. They aren't!!!! The Jesus jingles treat God like an
idiot.
Do you think it is appropriate to treat God like an idiot?
If not, why do ypou treat God like an idiot by singing Jesus Jingles to
Him?????
> > Asking people to praise and worship is NOT the same as actually
>>praising and worshipping. Most praise and worship leaders >>mistake the
two as the same thing.
...
> > Because most churches have kicked out the real artists we only >>have
Kristyun Krap left in the church services. Since most of the >>church
service is about singing this foul smelling crap I don't bother >>to go. I
don't like having to leave my brain and artistic talent at the >>door.
>
> The hard, cold truth is that a lot of church hymns that maybe you don't
> like, have helped millions upon millions of people grow into a closer
> relationship with God.
People became Christians in the nazi death campos as well ...but i don't
recommend it as a normal way.
> What blows my mind, is that I haven't seen you say thing one against > the
fella who wants to use Ozzy Osbourne in his worship services,
I'd go to a church to gear Ozzy's views on God.
Christians are more concerned about not changing their man made tradition of
Jesus Jingle singing than looking at the truth.
You can keep blaming it on the people that are leaving the church in droves
or you can start to look at the problems within the church and change.
People don't want to attend church and leave their brain outside.
I'm happy staying at home on a Sunday and saving 10%.
Some "smith" of Psalms! Learn your art!!!!!!
Mark Tindall
> > > Demonic artists ?
> > Like Alice Cooper ...a Christian who plays golf with Pat Boone.
> > DOH!
>
> http://www.jesusjournal.com/jj_testimony/cooper.html
>
> "I used to celebrate moral decay, the
> decadence of it," he admitted. "I can look back on
> what I did then and what I'm doing now and they're
> two different things. But at the time I was the
> poster boy for moral decay, you know. So yeah, I've
> got a lot to be forgiven for...out of ignorance, I
> thought I was doing the right thing. I was totally in
> agreement that every guy should sleep with every girl
> and drink as much as they can. I don't believe that
> now. I don't believe in it, because I see how
> destructive it is."
>
> Alice Cooper
Alice sings his SAME hit songs in concert ...but is still a Christian.
Mark Tindall
> > > It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
> > > "praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
> >
> > Christian art CAN mention that if it is a true depiction of the words of
a
> > character.
>
> Music that curses God, is /not/ Christian.
You don't know much about art, do you?
Some psalm smith!!!!
> > > Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
> > > worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor >God.
> >
> > It can if it is the authentic voice of the Other. Art is not bound by
> > fundamentalist piety.
>
> And neither is it bound by liberalist intolerance.
Heh?
> Paul found plenty to distinguish between flesh and spirit.
... and what about Jesus???????
> So let me get this straight; you would rather hear Marilyn Manson's
> "Anti-Christ Superstar" in a church than the venerable church-hymn
> "Majesty!"
Not in a church service which is aimed at worshipoping the infinite One God
as I do not think it is approppriate to place art which is contrary to the
ethos of Christinity in a church service ... but at a concert stadium I
would muych prefer to hear Marilyn Manson than listen to Jesus Jingles. At
least his work is art. I appreciate all forms of art even if i disagree
with the content of the art.
Why do you think artists flee the church?????
> > > An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ.
> > Not necessarily. Rembrandt portrayed the blinding ofd Samson
>> which was not a good thing ...but it was true thing portrayed by a
>>Christian artist.
>
> The context of that story is a description of God's holiness and >grace.
Samson visited prostitutes.
> Rembrant was not painting something evil, he was painting >something
holy, that had a chapter on what was evil.
Rembrandt painted the blinding of Samson in graphic detail ...and the work
was BANNED .... and you say that such a blinding is not evil????
See picture at
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/r/rembran/painting/biblic1/samson.html
Learn about ART!!! If you really are a psalm smith learn how to smith
psalms!!!!
The following is from the fundamentalist Francis Schaeffer ..who you will
note does NOT share your view on a dichotomy between spirit and flesh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
from http://www.jberryman.com/quotebookSchaeffer.html
quotes from Art and the Bible, by Francis Schaeffer...
As evangelical Christians, we have tended to relegate art to the very fringe
of life. The rest of human life we feel is more important. Despite our
constant talk about the Lordship of Christ, we have narrowed its scope to a
very small area of reality. We have misunderstood the concept of the
Lordship of Christ over the whole of man and the whole of the universe and
have not taken to us the riches that the Bible gives us for ourselves, for
our lives, and for our culture
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Lordship of Christ over the whole of life means that there are no
Platonic areas in Christianity, no dichotomy or hierarchy between the body
and the soul. God made the body as well as the soul, and redemption is for
the whole man.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Christianity is really true, then it involves the whole man, including
his intellect and creativeness. Christianity is not just "dogmatically" true
or "doctrinally" true. Rather, it is true to what is there, true in the
whole area of the whole man in all of life.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How often do Christians think of sexual matters as something second-rate.
Never, never, never should we do so, according to the Word of God. The whole
man is made to love God; each aspect of man's nature is to be given its
proper place. That includes the sexual relationship, that tremendous
relationship of one man to one woman. At the very beginning God brought Eve
to man. A love poem can thus be beautiful.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Christian is the one whose imagination should fly beyond the stars.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christianity is not just "dogmatically" true or "doctrinally" true. Rather,
it is true to what is there, true in the whole area of the whole man in all
of life.
The ancients were afraid that if they went to the end of the earth, they
would fall off and be consumed by dragons. But once we understand that
Christianity is true to what is there, including true to the ultimate
environment -- the infinite, personal God who is really there -- then our
minds are freed. We can pursue any question and can be sure that we will not
fall off the end of the earth. Such an attitude will give our Christianity a
strength that is often does not seem to have at the present time.
But there is another side to the Lordship of Christ, and this involves the
total culture -- including the area of creativity. Again, evangelical or
biblical Christianity has been weak at this point. About all that we have
produced is a very romantic Sunday school art.
We do not seem to understand that the arts too are supposed to be under the
Lordship of Christ.
I have frequently quoted a statement from Francis Bacon, who was one of the
first of the modern scientists and who believed in the uniformity of natural
causes in an open system. He, along with other men like Copernicus and
Galileo, believed that because the world had been created by a reasonable
God, they could therefore pursue the truth concerning the universe by
reason. There is much, of course, in Francis Bacon with which I would
disagree, but one of the statements which I love to quote is this: "Man by
the Fall fell at the same time from his state of innocence and from his
dominion over nature. Both of these losses, however, can even in this life
be in some part repaired; the former by religion and faith, the latter by
the arts and sciences." How I wish that evangelical Christians in the United
States and Britain and across the world had had this vision for the last
fifty years!
The arts and the sciences do have a place in the Christian life -- they are
not peripheral. For a Christian, redeemed by the work of Christ and living
within the norms of Scripture and under the leadership of the Holy Spirit,
the Lordship of Christ should include an interest in the arts. A Christian
should use these arts to the glory of God -- not just as tracts, but as
things of beauty to the praise of God. And art work can be a doxology in
itself.
Rowland Croucher
> I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender stocks
> his bar.
Read John 2 :-)!
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > > > It doesn't have to talk about God verbatim. But it can't talk about
> > > > "praise satan!" and "holy hell!" and drek like that.
> > >
> > > Christian art CAN mention that if it is a true depiction of the words of
> a
> > > character.
> >
> > Music that curses God, is /not/ Christian.
>
> You don't know much about art, do you?
>
> Some psalm smith!!!!
Actually, I know quite a bit about both religious and secular art
throughout history, not that that matters to you. The point has not
changed. Music that curses God, is /not/ Christian.
No matter how many times you call me stupid or ignorant or silly or
whatever else you have in your insult vocabulary, it will not change the
fact that music that curses God, is /not/ Christian.
> > > > Music that commits blasphemy, advoctes theft and rape, music that
> > > > worships other gods such as money and power. These do not honor >God.
> > >
> > > It can if it is the authentic voice of the Other. Art is not bound by
> > > fundamentalist piety.
> >
> > And neither is it bound by liberalist intolerance.
>
> Heh?
Such as yours. Your every move seems to be an attempt to deny
conservative believers legitimacy. You are working harder against the
cause of conservative Christianity, than the Ku Klux Klan works against
civil rights.
> > Paul found plenty to distinguish between flesh and spirit.
>
> ... and what about Jesus???????
It is not my position that Paul disagrees with Jesus. Is it yours?
> > So let me get this straight; you would rather hear Marilyn Manson's
> > "Anti-Christ Superstar" in a church than the venerable church-hymn
> > "Majesty!"
>
> Not in a church service which is aimed at worshipoping the infinite One God
> as I do not think it is approppriate to place art which is contrary to the
> ethos of Christinity in a church service ... but at a concert stadium I
> would muych prefer to hear Marilyn Manson than listen to Jesus Jingles. At
> least his work is art. I appreciate all forms of art even if i disagree
> with the content of the art.
>
> Why do you think artists flee the church?????
ANYONE can call themselves an 'artist' regardless of whether they are
capable of producing art. I can certainly see why YOU would flee the
church, and from what I've seen of your personality thus far, you seem
to only consider people 'artists' if they are exactly like yourself.
> > > > An artist who sings evil things is testifying against Christ.
> > > Not necessarily. Rembrandt portrayed the blinding ofd Samson
> >> which was not a good thing ...but it was true thing portrayed by a
> >>Christian artist.
> >
> > The context of that story is a description of God's holiness and >grace.
>
> Samson visited prostitutes.
And David committed adultery, and both Moses and David committed murder.
What about it?
> > Rembrant was not painting something evil, he was painting >something
> holy, that had a chapter on what was evil.
>
> Rembrandt painted the blinding of Samson in graphic detail ...and the work
> was BANNED .... and you say that such a blinding is not evil????
>
> See picture at
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/r/rembran/painting/biblic1/samson.html
>
>
> Learn about ART!!! If you really are a psalm smith learn how to smith
> psalms!!!!
Your saying that other people are ignorant, does not make them ignorant.
> The following is from the fundamentalist Francis Schaeffer ..who you will
> note does NOT share your view on a dichotomy between spirit and flesh.
I don't HAVE a dichotomy between flesh and spirit. God instructs us to
discern between the flesh and the spirit. That is not the same thing as
saying that the flesh is the polor opposite of the spirit.
How many times do I have to say the same things over and over and over
and over again before you stop labelling me with doctrines I do not hold?
The flesh and the spirit are not the same thing. The Spirit is GOD and
God is not a creature. The soul is the breath of life, that was
breathed into us by the Spirit of God.
I understand that you hate Conservative Christians, but that's no excuse
for making things up about them.
psalmsmith
psalmsmith
"Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
wrote:
> "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:psalmsmith-1BCFB...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> > In article <40ce...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> > I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender stocks
> > his bar.
>
> Read John 2 :-)!
And the wedding in Cana is supposed to somehow translate into the idea
that if a bar runs out of beer it's God's fault????
Dear Lord, I hope nobody gets the idea that ANYBODY in this newsgroup
knows You!
applegas
news:psalmsmith-E845A...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com:
I hope you realize what you've just done.
Mark Tindall
> > > Paul found plenty to distinguish between flesh and spirit.
> > ... and what about Jesus???????
>
> It is not my position that Paul disagrees with Jesus. Is it yours?
Yes ... on some points.
> > > Rembrant was not painting something evil, he was painting >>>something
holy, that had a chapter on what was evil.
> > Rembrandt painted the blinding of Samson in graphic detail ...and >>the
work was BANNED .... and you say that such a blinding is not >>evil????
> > See picture at
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/r/rembran/painting/biblic1/samson.html
> > Learn about ART!!! If you really are a psalm smith learn how to >>smith
psalms!!!!
>
> Your saying that other people are ignorant, does not make them >ignorant.
Reread the above. You said the painting is about "something holy". Is
blinding someone holy? See the larger version of the paitining and the
graphic depiction of Samson's eye being pierced.
Please explain.
> > The following is from the fundamentalist Francis Schaeffer ..who
>> you will note does NOT share your view on a dichotomy between >>spirit
and flesh.
> I don't HAVE a dichotomy between flesh and spirit.
So you say ... but your actions speak otherwise.
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > > > If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these promptings
> when
> > > > God chooses that way to lead you next time.
> > >
> > > God is not speaking to me through you unless God is a brain dead idiot.
> > > Speaking of which, why do I have to leave my brain at the church door
> and
> > > sing crappy Jesus Jingles that do not say anything and pretend that I am
> > > praising and worshipping God by offering him crap????
> >
> > I didn't ask you to hear anything *I* was saying, I just said that if
> > you don't like this method that God has chosen to lead myself and
> > countless other people -- then next time you see it, ignore it.
>
> That is like implying that God uses Nazi concentration camps (because some
> people became Christian in these camps) and that I should ignore them next
> time they happen (like the German people did)
Less drugs. Try less drugs.
I said that God uses hymns to trigger memories in His people and give
them insight into the current situation. If you don't like it, then
next time you remember a hymn, ignore it.
Now you have God killing Jews in Nazi prizon camps???????????????
I am dead serious here. Less drugs man.
Mark Tindall
> > > > Like Alice Cooper ...a Christian who plays golf with Pat Boone.
> > > > DOH!
> > >
> > > http://www.jesusjournal.com/jj_testimony/cooper.html
Full article ....in context ....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rock star Alice Cooper shocked the world in the 1970s with an
alcohol-fueled stage show that explored taboos ranging from murder to
necrophilia. Years later he shocked the rock world by quietly embracing
Christianity.
Cooper has rarely talked about his faith, but in an exclusive October, 2000
interview with Lonn Friend, editor of the on-line rock magazine KNAC.COM,
Cooper spoke at length about his drinking days, faith in God, and views on
the shock-rockers who are following in his footsteps.
Cooper said he was introduced to alcohol when he began his music career, and
drank heavily for the next 15 years. "I was a totally functional alcoholic,
probably the most functional alcoholic ever. I never missed a show. I never
stumbled. I never slurred a word. I mean I was the Dean Martin of rock n'
roll," he told KNAC.COM.
Cooper said divine intervention is what broke his drinking habit in the
mid-1980s. "I honestly think I was simply and completely healed," he said.
"I guess you can call it a miracle. It's the only way I can explain it. It
was absolutely eliminated from my life."
Cooper has often been called the model for today's shock-rockers, including
Marilyn Manson. While he doesn't criticize Manson for his on-stage
theatrics, Cooper takes issue with Manson's anti-Christian stance.
"He's very vocal about it," Cooper told KNAC.COM. "I believe [the Manson
album] AntiChrist Superstar was pointed right directly at me. I didn't
volley the first shots in this whole thing. His whole anti-Christian thing,
and I'm like 'Hey, I'm Christian, and I'm not going to denounce what I
believe.' I can be a rock 'n' roll star, a Christian and Alice Cooper."
Cooper continued, "I think Marilyn had a really bad Christian experience
when he was younger. My guess is he got involved with some
less-than-Christian-Christians and that really, forgive the expression,
nailed him. You know, he's one of the greatest button pushers I've ever met.
And I know that game because I invented that game...Manson clicked because
he found a whole new set of buttons to push, he even pushed my buttons,
which is pretty impressive since I was pushing buttons before he was born."
Cooper's embrace of Christianity was more a return to faith than a coming to
faith. "I was pretty much convinced all my life that there was just one God
and there was Jesus Christ and there was the Devil," he said.
"You couldn't believe in God without believing in the Devil. I always tell
bands that the most dangerous thing you can do is to believe in the concept
of the Devil or the concept of God, because you're not giving them full
credit. When you believe in God, you've got to believe in the all-powerful
God. He's not just God, He's the all-powerful God and He has total control
over everyone's life. The Devil, on the other hand, is a real character
that's trying his hardest to tear your life apart. If you believe that this
is just mythology, you're a prime target because you know that's exactly
what Satan wants: To be a myth. But he's not a myth, of this I'm totally
convinced. More than anything in the world, I'm convinced of that."
Cooper continued, "We have to make a choice. And everybody, at some point in
their lives, has to make that choice. When people say, 'How do you believe
this? Why do you believe this?' I just say nothing else speaks to my heart.
This doesn't speak to my intellect, it doesn't speak to my logic - it speaks
right to my heart and right to my soul, deeper than anything I've ever
thought of. And I totally believe it. That being said, I'm not a very good
Christian. I mean, none of us are ever 'good' Christians. That's not the
point. When you're a Christian, it doesn't mean you're gonna be good, it
means you've got a harder road to pull."
Though some have questioned combining his faith in God with his
rock-and-roll background, Cooper doesn't see a conflict. "I'm the first one
to rock as loud as I can, but when it comes to what I believe, I'm the first
one to defend it too," he said. "It has also gotten me in trouble with the
staunch Christians who believe that in order to be a Christian you have to
be on your knees 24 hours a day in a closet somewhere. Hey, maybe some
people can live like that, but I don't think that's the way God expected us
to live. When Christ came back, He hung out with the whores, the drunks and
miscreants because they were people that needed Him. Christ never spent His
time with the Pharisees."
But while Cooper may still speak to some of his old themes, he has a new
message today.
"I used to celebrate moral decay, the decadence of it," he admitted. "I can
look back on what I did then and what I'm doing now and they're two
different things. But at the time I was the poster boy for moral decay, you
know. So yeah, I've got a lot to be forgiven for...out of ignorance, I
thought I was doing the right thing. I was totally in agreement that every
guy should sleep with every girl and drink as much as they can. I don't
believe that now. I don't believe in it, because I see how destructive it
is."
Spiritual awakening is happening around the world, Cooper believes. "It's
obvious humanity is craving for answers directly born of awareness," he
said. "That's the healthiest thing I've seen in a long time because there is
something better and everybody's gotta find it in their own way. People
aren't feeling fulfilled by how many cars they own or the size of their
stock portfolio.
Even the addicts are saying, 'It doesn't matter how many drugs I take, I'm
not fulfilled. This isn't satisfying.' There's a spiritual hunger going on.
Everybody feels it. If you don't feel it now, you will. Trust me. You will."
EP News Service
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now read the following from
http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/a/al/alice_cooper.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alice Cooper
Vincent Damon Furnier (born February 4, 1948), better known as Alice Cooper,
is a heavy metal singer, musician and composer. He is best known for his
stage performances, which are often theatrical and violent, utilizing
make-up, electric chairs, guillotines, decapitated human heads, fake blood,
and boa constrictors.
Alice Cooper was originally just the name of Furnier's band. By the mid
1970s, Furnier officially changed his own name to Alice Cooper for a highly
successful solo career.
Furnier, born in Detroit and heavily influenced by The Beatles, formed a
number of rock bands in the 1960s, including the Earwigs, The Spiders, and
The Nazz. Furnier, upon learning that Todd Rundgren also had a band called
the Nazz, changed the band's name to Alice Cooper, which at that time
included guitarist Mike Bruce, guitarist Glen Buxton, bassist Dennis
Dunaway, and drummer Neal Smith, After moving to California in 1968, the
band enlisted Shep Gordon as their manager, and the band was soon signed to
Frank Zappa's label, Straight Records - releasing two competent but
outlandish albums to a frosty public and critical reception.
Although the band incorporated theatrics in their stage act from the outset,
a chance case of press misreporting an unfortunate, unrehearsed stage
routine involving Alice and a live chicken lead to the band changing tack -
capitalising on tabloid sensationalism and creating a new sub-genre, Shock
Rock. A major hit single soon followed in 1971's "I'm Eighteen", from the
Love it to Death album. The band's mix of shock and glam captured a teen
audience bored with bearded, denim-clad hippy bands and in the summer of
1972, Alice Cooper served up School's Out to their hungry audience, their
biggest success. The album reached number two on the charts and sold over a
million copies. The title song became a Top 10 hit in the US and a number
one single in the UK.
album cover
Billion Dollar BabiesBillion Dollar Babies, released in 1973, was the band's
most commercially successful album, reaching no. 1 in both the US and
Britain. That album's first single, "No More Mr. Nice Guy," became a Top 10
hit in Britain, and reached number 25 in the U.S. With a string of
successful thematic, or concept, albums in the bag, the band played sell-out
tours around the world - attempts to ban their shocking act by politicians
and pressure groups only serving to fuel the myth of Alice Cooper and
generate more audience interest.
In 1975, Cooper dropped his fellow band members and released his first solo
album, Welcome to my Nightmare. Cooper was backed by Lou Reed's band,
guitarist Dick Wagner, guitarist Steve Hunter, bassist Prakash John,
keyboardist Joseph Chrowski, and drummer Penti Glan. The album was another
top 10 hit for Cooper. The album featured his hit song and feminist anthem,
"Only Women Bleed", but without the old band this album marked out the
direction Alice would now take - a move toward rock's mainstream.
After three further disappointing albums, in 1977 Cooper was hospitalized in
the New York sanitarium for alcoholism. Ironically this proved fruitful for
a surprise return to form on the hard-rocking, semi-autobiographical album
From The Inside. The life changing event also led Cooper, whose father was a
Baptist minister, to become a Christian. Around this time Cooper lead
celebrities in raising money to remodel the famous HOLLYWOOD sign in
California. Cooper himself chipped in over $27,000 for the project, doing it
in memory of friend and comedian Groucho Marx.
Albums from the beginning of 1980s, Flush The Fashion, Special Forces,
Zipper Catches Skin and DaDa were not successful in commercial way, they
were very strange and bizarre at that time, and are now considered cult
classics. Cooper then released Constrictor (1986) which had more success,
followed by Raise Your Fist And Yell (1987). In 1989 he released his
best-selling album Trash with the hit singles "Poison", "Bed Of Nails" and
"House Of Fire".
In 1991. album Hey Stoopid was released, and the song with same name became
one of the anti-drug anthems. In 1994 he released The Last Temptation which
contains deeper theological thoughts. Then, a pause that lasted for 6 years
and a great comeback in 2000. with Brutal Planet. Strong, dark and loud with
motives from brutality of a real world without much philosophy, it is one of
most realistic rock albums ever. Brutal Planet was succeeded by Dragontown
(2001). (Dragontown is the worst city on Brutal Planet.)
Cooper continues to record and tour heavily to this date. Many artists and
rock bands claim to be fans of Cooper's, including Kiss, Alice In Chains,
U2, Guttermouth, The Rolling Stones, Yngwie J. Malmsteen, Tool, UFO, Michael
Jackson, Megadeth, and of course Marilyn Manson, who has been called an
imitation of Cooper.
Cooper owns a rock and roll club called Cooperstown in Arizona and loves to
golf.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Tindall
Truth in Strange Places
Life on Alice Cooper's Brutal Planet
Truth is found in the strangest places. Consider the new album, Brutal
Planet, by Alice Cooper, the father of shock rock. The strong moral message
that pervades the album may go unnoticed by those easily offended by
Cooper's dark and disturbing style. Indeed, many sensitive souls will
dismiss Cooper's songs from the shadowy side of human existence as an
improper medium for communicating truth and virtue. Consequently, Cooper's
album will probably not receive the hearing it deserves. That would be
unfortunate, given the substance underlying his sinister style.
In his strange and twisted manner, Alice Cooper sings of the good, the true,
and the beautiful. But he does so by placing these things against the bleak
backdrop of evil, self-deception, and ugliness. This unpleasant setting
understandably makes us uncomfortable. But it is only against this backdrop
that the supreme value of truth and the preciousness of hope can be fully
displayed in all their goodness and glory.
The opening words of the title track, Brutal Planet, provide the context for
the entire album:
We're spinning round on this ball of hate
There's no parole, there's no great escape
We're sentenced here until the end of days
And then my brother there's a price to pay
The world is likened to a vast prison camp filled with inmates who have no
hope for escape. In the midst of the song, female background singers,
representing those who live cushioned lives shielded from evil's destructive
power, sing of the perfection and beauty of this world:
"This world is such perfection" (What a sight)
"It's just like paradise" (For my eyes)
"A truly grand creation" (What a sight)
"From up here it looks so nice" (For my eyes)
Cooper challenges these idealists to come down from their ivory towers and
see that the view from the streets is much more terrifying:
It's such a brutal planet
It's such a living hell
It was a holy garden
That's right where Adam fell
It's where the bite was taken
It's where we chose to sin
It's where we first were naked
This is where our death begins
Through Biblical imagery, Cooper paints a picture of life that is much more
realistic than the idealists. In the process, Cooper confronts original sin,
placing his finger directly on the source behind all the ills of this brutal
planet. Like a tour guide of torture and misery, Cooper points out places on
this planet where evil has extended its icy claws:
Here's where we keep the armies
Here's where we write their names
Here's where the money god is
Here's our famous hall of shame
Here's where we starve the hungry
Here's where we cheat the poor
Here's where we beat the children
Here is where we pay the whores…
Right here we stoned the prophets
Built idols out of mud
Right here we fed the lions
Christian flesh and Christian blood
Down here is where we hung him
Upon an ugly cross
Over there we filled the ovens
Right here the holocaust
Other songs on the album build upon the theme introduced in the title song.
In Wicked Young Man, Cooper suggests that the source of human evil lies
first and foremost in the human heart. Simply put, people do evil because
people are evil.
I am a vicious young man, oh I am a wicked young man
It's not the games that I play, the movies I see, the music I dig,
I'm just a wicked young man
Very few in popular media are willing to point so clearly to the obvious
source of any evil act--the individual committing the crime. Instead, blame
is laid on environment, entertainment (video games, movies, music), economic
advantage or disadvantage, family upbringing, chemical imbalance, genetic
disposition, etc. By focusing on things and people outside the culpability
of the individual, the evil perpetrator is relieved of all personal
responsibility. Meanwhile, the true source underlying every evil act--an
evil, unbelieving, selfish and sinful heart--is forgotten.
In Sanctuary, rather than singing of the church, as one might expect, Cooper
sings of the safety of one's own room. He sings of a man whose love of
privacy causes him to view his own personal space as a sanctuary from the
rest of the world. In the process, he grows cold to the needs and concerns
of those around him.
In Eat Some More, Cooper laments the vast reservoir of food that is
purposefully wasted, as millions starve around the globe.
Sixty million tons of meat
Spoiling in the stinking heat
Train full loads of moldy bread
Millions will still go unfed…
Worms in fruit an ugly sight
They're begging for a single bite
Our garbage dumps are mountains high
While other people sadly die
In the midst of such incredible waste, he ridicules the gluttonous appetite
of the American people.
We can't see we're going blind
We're just dying on the vine
We're all sinking from the weight
Open wide and salivate
Do you like the taste?
Stuff it in your face
Its not nice to waste
In Gimme, Cooper takes on the persona of the devil, offering to fulfill
people's desires if they will merely bow down to him. Cooper puts his finger
on the source of all the brutal planet's evil, exposing the greedy, selfish
cravings that lead to mistreating others, and ultimately, to one's own
self-destruction.
Don't you wish you had it all
Don't you deserve to have it all
Kneel down and tell me what you need
In Cold Machines, Cooper laments the depersonalization and alienation of
society through technology. We are no longer fellow human beings on the
brutal planet. Rather, we are cold machines functioning together in the
prison-cell of technological expediency.
It is a strange day when the king of shock-rock has more to say about real
life than many contemporary preachers. Cooper's sinister stage persona
allows him to pursue themes that are normally (and sadly) off-limits in the
Christian marketplace of ideas. The preciousness of truth and the supreme
value of hope are held in low esteem in the church because these treasures
are rarely positioned against the backdrop of radical evil and hopelessness.
Only when we are willing to come down from our ivory towers and see the
brutal planet in all its ugliness and sickness will we be in a position to
point to the only hope available for the life-long inmates around us.
Truth is found in the strangest places. However, this should not surprise
those who believe that ultimate truth is found in a naked bleeding prisoner
writhing in agony on a Roman torture stake upon a garbage-heap outside of
Jerusalem, as the cushioned religious leaders look on with glee.
© Richard J. Vincent, September 25, 2000
John McComb
> "I used to celebrate moral decay, the
> decadence of it," he admitted. "I can look back on
> what I did then and what I'm doing now and they're
> two different things. But at the time I was the
> poster boy for moral decay, you know. So yeah, I've
> got a lot to be forgiven for...out of ignorance, I
> thought I was doing the right thing. I was totally in
> agreement that every guy should sleep with every girl
> and drink as much as they can. I don't believe that
> now. I don't believe in it, because I see how
> destructive it is."
>
> Alice Cooper
Hmmmm. Who'd a thunk it. I love stories like this
and like the testimony of Biker_for_Jesus. They are
like Jesus' own parables come to life.
Yours in Christ
John
Mark Tindall
> > > > > If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these
>>>>promptings when God chooses that way to lead you next time.
....
> > That is like implying that God uses Nazi concentration camps
>> (because some people became Christian in these camps) and that >>I should
ignore them next time they happen (like the German people >>did)
>
> Less drugs. Try less drugs.
I quit the drug of church.
> > Singing Jesus Jingles instead of good art is like eating stale rancid >>
bread when a banquet is laid out in front of you.
.....
> > I refuse to treat God like an idiot even if the rest of the church
> > congregation treats God like an idiot.
.....
> > Do you think it is appropriate to treat God like an idiot?
> > If not, why do you treat God like an idiot by singing Jesus Jingles to
> > Him?????
...
psalmsmith
applegas <appl...@NO.SPAM.sunflower.com> wrote:
> psalmsmith <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in
> news:psalmsmith-E845A...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com:
>
> > In article <40d0e5b8$2$12960$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
> > "Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> >> news:psalmsmith-1BCFB...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> >> > In article <40ce...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> >> > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender
> >> > stocks his bar.
> >>
> >> Read John 2 :-)!
> >
> > And the wedding in Cana is supposed to somehow translate into the idea
> > that if a bar runs out of beer it's God's fault????
> >
> > Dear Lord, I hope nobody gets the idea that ANYBODY in this newsgroup
> > knows You!
> >
>
> I hope you realize what you've just done.
I'd rather that a visitor coming in here believed EVERYBODY was lost,
than to accept bizarre ideas like Marilyn Manson makes better worship
music than most church hymns!
Diana
Then that of course would have been better to have said
than what you prayed. Think next time before hitting
send. There are good Christian people here in ACC. I do
agree with you about the Marilyn Manson thing as I much
prefer my church hymns.
Take care and God Bless
Diana
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
Do church hymns really matter at the end of the day?
Does the style of music really matter at the end of the day?
NO.
Integrity in the hearts of men towards God matters. That is the ONLY
qualifier for what "worship" is.
Stop focussing on the externals or else you'll end up vain..
lawrence
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > > > > > If you don't like how it works, then don't follow these
> >>>>promptings when God chooses that way to lead you next time.
> ....
> > > That is like implying that God uses Nazi concentration camps
> >> (because some people became Christian in these camps) and that >>I should
> ignore them next time they happen (like the German people >>did)
> >
> > Less drugs. Try less drugs.
>
> I quit the drug of church.
But apparently you haven't quit the drug of selective editing, or
manipulating someone elses words in an attempt to make your own position
appear more plausable.
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" wrote:
>
> > > > Paul found plenty to distinguish between flesh and spirit.
> > > ... and what about Jesus???????
> >
> > It is not my position that Paul disagrees with Jesus. Is it yours?
>
> Yes ... on some points.
That explains a lot.
> > > > Rembrant was not painting something evil, he was painting >>>something
> holy, that had a chapter on what was evil.
> > > Rembrandt painted the blinding of Samson in graphic detail ...and >>the
> work was BANNED .... and you say that such a blinding is not >>evil????
> > > See picture at
> http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/r/rembran/painting/biblic1/samson.html
> > > Learn about ART!!! If you really are a psalm smith learn how to >>smith
> psalms!!!!
> >
> > Your saying that other people are ignorant, does not make them >ignorant.
>
> Reread the above. You said the painting is about "something holy". Is
> blinding someone holy? See the larger version of the paitining and the
> graphic depiction of Samson's eye being pierced.
>
> Please explain.
The painting is not about just the blinding of Samson. The event is
taken from the larger context of the book of Judges. You can no more
take the one painting out of context and say that it speaks evil for
itself than you can take a single verse of scripture out of context and
say that IT speaks evil for itself.
You can take the single sentence "And God repented of the evil that He
thought to do" and by removing it from context you can re-engineer God
into a wishy-washy creature that thinks evil thoughts. It's the context
of the verse that prevents such abuse, and likewise the painting of
Rembrant has a larger context too: the book of Judges.
> > > The following is from the fundamentalist Francis Schaeffer ..who
> >> you will note does NOT share your view on a dichotomy between >>spirit
> and flesh.
> > I don't HAVE a dichotomy between flesh and spirit.
>
> So you say ... but your actions speak otherwise.
Why, because I make a discernment between the spirit and the flesh as
God also does?
Mark Tindall
> > > Dear Lord, I hope nobody gets the idea that ANYBODY in this >>>
newsgroup knows You!
> > I hope you realize what you've just done.
>
> I'd rather that a visitor coming in here believed EVERYBODY was
> lost, than to accept bizarre ideas like Marilyn Manson makes better >
worship music than most church hymns!
I've never said that.
Marilyn Manson makes better art than most Jesus Jingles.
psalmsmith
You make a LOT of assumptions that you are not qualified to make. Like
the fact that I only focus on the superficial trappings of Christ and
His church, for instance.
Because I recognize that you cannot go out and lie, steal, or murder "so
long as your heart is in the right place" does not mean that I believe
Christianity is based on superficial works.
Everyone should know that the faith of Christ is all about the condition
of a man's heart. I have argued and defended that point as much if not
more than anybody else on usenet these last 6 or so years.
Nevertheless, that does not make the physical reality of the world we
live in completely irrelevant.
The good Samaritan was a friend of the wounded traveller BECAUSE he
stopped to help, not because of what was going on in his head or his
heart at the time.
The religious people who passed the traveller by may have had all kinds
of 'good intentions' like they had to stay ceremonially clean for
something or other when they arrived at their destination. In their
hearts, they may well have believed that they were passing by the
wounded traveller for the greater good of God's will.
In truth, however, it was not the religious leaders that God approved
of, but the Samaritan. Not because his heart was filled with pity and a
desire to see the traveller well again, but because he stopped, and
helped the poor man.
psalmsmith
"Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
Art is in the eye of the beholder. Just because you PERSONALLY would
rather listen to death metal then church hymns, doesn't mean that all
church hymns suck, and all death metal is cool. That should be obvious.
Of course, this comes as no suprise to any of us. Your actions and
speech are a product of what you feed your brain. Clearly they have had
an influence here, whether you choose to recognize that or not.
psalmsmith
"Diana" <*?*@*?*.com> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in
> message
> >
> > I'd rather that a visitor coming in here believed EVERYBODY
> > was lost, than to accept bizarre ideas like Marilyn Manson
> > makes better worship music than most church hymns!
>
> Then that of course would have been better to have said
> than what you prayed. Think next time before hitting
> send. There are good Christian people here in ACC. I do
> agree with you about the Marilyn Manson thing as I much
> prefer my church hymns.
>
> Take care and God Bless
> Diana
>
>
There may actually be good Christian people in ACC. I don't see a whole
lot of evidence for that, however. And I would much rather a stranger
think that I was lost, than to believe that this crowd speaks for
Christianity.
That way, they will have a MUCH better opportunity to believe Christ
later when they hear Him, if they don't have this bizarre prejudicial
opinion that Jesus Christ should look like Ozzy Osbourne on a bad day.
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
They're not assumptions.
I've been in discussions with those of the Reformed and Presbyterian and
Independent Baptist persuasion who are suckered into believing certain
styles of music are of the devil (when they're not), certain people are
not people, but demons in the flesh and certain bands are DEMONIC. They
tend to focus on the externals as "worship" when the intent of the heart
of man is what qualifies as "worship" or not.
I speak from experience in dealing with such a line of thought when I
said what I stated above.
You said certain bands were demonic and certain people were demonic, and
the ONLY other people I see saying such stuff are those who have sold
their faith short..
Do you subscribe to a view that certain styles of music are evil or demonic?
"The hard, cold truth is that a lot of church hymns that maybe you don't
like, have helped millions upon millions of people grow into a closer
relationship with God." : by these words, it seems so..
> Like the fact that I only focus on the superficial trappings of Christ and
> His church, for instance.
I didn't say you said this. Look again at my words. My point was about
what worship is, not about
> Because I recognize that you cannot go out and lie, steal, or murder "so
> long as your heart is in the right place" does not mean that I believe
> Christianity is based on superficial works.
Integrity means words and actions go hand in hand, matching up to each
other.
I do believe you're burning down your own sock puppet by stating what
you have above, not anything I'm dealing with. Bury your dead,
smouldering strawman, please.
> Everyone should know that the faith of Christ is all about the condition
> of a man's heart. I have argued and defended that point as much if not
> more than anybody else on usenet these last 6 or so years.
So where's the line that certain bands are demonic coming from ?
> Nevertheless, that does not make the physical reality of the world we
> live in completely irrelevant.
I never said it did..
> The good Samaritan was a friend of the wounded traveller BECAUSE he
> stopped to help, not because of what was going on in his head or his
> heart at the time.
So how are you helping by calling certain bands demonic ?
> The religious people who passed the traveller by may have had all kinds
> of 'good intentions' like they had to stay ceremonially clean for
> something or other when they arrived at their destination. In their
> hearts, they may well have believed that they were passing by the
> wounded traveller for the greater good of God's will.
And like the Levite who passed by the wounded man, you think certain
bands are demonic / ritually unclean..
> In truth, however, it was not the religious leaders that God approved
> of, but the Samaritan. Not because his heart was filled with pity and a
> desire to see the traveller well again, but because he stopped, and
> helped the poor man.
"There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence,
immorality, and open rebellion against God."
Have you at least sought to understand these artists, or is this your
vaunted opinion (without proof)?
lawrence
psalmsmith
"(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
> psalmsmith wrote:
> > In article <40d10...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>,
> > "(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>Do church hymns really matter at the end of the day?
> >>Does the style of music really matter at the end of the day?
> >>
> >>NO.
> >>
> >>Integrity in the hearts of men towards God matters. That is the ONLY
> >>qualifier for what "worship" is.
> >>
> >>Stop focussing on the externals or else you'll end up vain..
> >>
> >>lawrence
> >
> >
> > You make a LOT of assumptions that you are not qualified to make.
>
> They're not assumptions.
Obviously they are.
> I've been in discussions with those of the Reformed and Presbyterian and
> Independent Baptist persuasion who are suckered into believing certain
> styles of music are of the devil (when they're not), certain people are
> not people, but demons in the flesh and certain bands are DEMONIC. They
> tend to focus on the externals as "worship" when the intent of the heart
> of man is what qualifies as "worship" or not.
I am not a reformed baptist. I am not a presbyterian. And I am not an
independant baptist, either.
I do not believe that 'certain styles of music are of the devil,' I
never have believed such a thing, and I have made that clear several
times here, in this group, in the last week.
In fact, day before yesterday I just burned a road-mix of several
Christian metal bands to listen to in my car.
But does /any/ of that make a difference to you -- or do you simply like
your original opinion better, and just plan on ignoring these facts?
I mean, why let the facts get in the way of a good character
assassination, right?
> I speak from experience in dealing with such a line of thought when I
> said what I stated above.
'with such a line of though' but you ASSUME that I share this line of
thought with some fellow I never met. Admit it. Go on, it's not that
hard. I'll even help you figure out what to say: "Yes, I assumed that
you thought this way before I had enough information to know for
certain." Try it, you might like it. It's only truth after all.
> You said certain bands were demonic and certain people were demonic, and
> the ONLY other people I see saying such stuff are those who have sold
> their faith short..
OH, so you are telling me that if you have enough FAITH, then you will
know that there are no demonic people? Hmm. Sounds to me like the kind
of faith the devil is selling. Jesus Christ HIMSELF cast out demons.
Are you telling me that HE didn't have enough faith to recognize that
'there are no demonic people?'
> Do you subscribe to a view that certain styles of music are evil or demonic?
>
> "The hard, cold truth is that a lot of church hymns that maybe you don't
> like, have helped millions upon millions of people grow into a closer
> relationship with God." : by these words, it seems so..
Dude, put down the crack pipe.
"some church hymns have brought people closer to God" = "certain styles
of music are demonic" ???????
What planet does THAT logic come from?
> > Like the fact that I only focus on the superficial trappings of Christ and
> > His church, for instance.
>
> I didn't say you said this. Look again at my words. My point was about
> what worship is, not about
Worship is ascribing WORTH
> > Because I recognize that you cannot go out and lie, steal, or murder "so
> > long as your heart is in the right place" does not mean that I believe
> > Christianity is based on superficial works.
>
> Integrity means words and actions go hand in hand, matching up to each
> other.
Jack the Ripper had integrity because he never transgressed against what
he thought he ought to do. He just went out and did it. His heart and
his hands were not in conflict with one another. Personally, I'd rather
be the friend of a weak Christian who is struggling to find his way,
than be friends with Jack the Ripper.
> I do believe you're burning down your own sock puppet by stating what
> you have above, not anything I'm dealing with. Bury your dead,
> smouldering strawman, please.
I'm sorry, I don't speak 'spin.' perhaps you could translate? You said
that it doesn't MATTER what the song says on the outside, and I simply
explained why it does.
> > Everyone should know that the faith of Christ is all about the condition
> > of a man's heart. I have argued and defended that point as much if not
> > more than anybody else on usenet these last 6 or so years.
>
> So where's the line that certain bands are demonic coming from ?
Demonic music comes from demonic people. Whether that's elevator music
or heavy metal; or anything inbetween. Likewise, inspired music comes
from inspired people. Whether that's elevator music or heavy metal, or
anything in between. This is all basic stuff. Christianity 101 stuff.
> > Nevertheless, that does not make the physical reality of the world we
> > live in completely irrelevant.
>
> I never said it did..
Then you agree that if a song lyric is blasphemous towards God, then
that song dishonors God, right?
> > The good Samaritan was a friend of the wounded traveller BECAUSE he
> > stopped to help, not because of what was going on in his head or his
> > heart at the time.
>
> So how are you helping by calling certain bands demonic ?
You do far, far more damage by implying Jesus Christ was off His rocker
for casting demons out of people.
I'm sorry, but some people are just inspired by evil. Whether that idea
is popular or not, is irrelevant -- it's simply true.
> > The religious people who passed the traveller by may have had all kinds
> > of 'good intentions' like they had to stay ceremonially clean for
> > something or other when they arrived at their destination. In their
> > hearts, they may well have believed that they were passing by the
> > wounded traveller for the greater good of God's will.
>
> And like the Levite who passed by the wounded man, you think certain
> bands are demonic / ritually unclean..
What on earth are you talking about? The illustration was simply an
example about how what we do in the physical world, MEANS something.
> > In truth, however, it was not the religious leaders that God approved
> > of, but the Samaritan. Not because his heart was filled with pity and a
> > desire to see the traveller well again, but because he stopped, and
> > helped the poor man.
>
> "There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence,
> immorality, and open rebellion against God."
That remains true.
> Have you at least sought to understand these artists, or is this your
> vaunted opinion (without proof)?
>
> lawrence
I don't listen to things that dishonor God. Blessed is the man who does
NOT walk in the council of those hostile towards God, who does NOT stand
in the practices of condemned people, and who does NOT dwell in the
dwellingplace of mockers and scorners.
I learn enough about a [random] band to avoid injecting their poison
into my own head. It is not my calling to analyze their lyric and point
out to others why they are dishonoring God. Perhaps if you like, God
will raise up a worker in His kingdom that DOES have that calling, and
you can ask him.
As for me, I will continue to do as God instructs, and to walk in truth.
And I won't pretend that a lie is the truth, just because it would make
me more popular either.
Diana
Well then instead of the prayer you prayed would not it
have been much better to Pray "O Lord please give new
people coming to this ng the gift of discerning of the
spirits" ?
Hey it is early morning here I mean early early LOL so
smile God loves you !
Diana
(: Lawrence Meckan :)
> In article <40d12c99$1...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>,
> "(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>psalmsmith wrote:
>>
>>>In article <40d10...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>,
>>> "(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>>Do church hymns really matter at the end of the day?
>>>>Does the style of music really matter at the end of the day?
>>>>
>>>>NO.
>>>>
>>>>Integrity in the hearts of men towards God matters. That is the ONLY
>>>>qualifier for what "worship" is.
>>>>
>>>>Stop focussing on the externals or else you'll end up vain..
>>>>
>>>>lawrence
>>>
>>>
>>>You make a LOT of assumptions that you are not qualified to make.
>>
>>They're not assumptions.
>
>
> Obviously they are.
Nope. I'm using your own words against you :)
>
>>I've been in discussions with those of the Reformed and Presbyterian and
>>Independent Baptist persuasion who are suckered into believing certain
>>styles of music are of the devil (when they're not), certain people are
>>not people, but demons in the flesh and certain bands are DEMONIC. They
>>tend to focus on the externals as "worship" when the intent of the heart
>>of man is what qualifies as "worship" or not.
>
>
> I am not a reformed baptist. I am not a presbyterian. And I am not an
> independant baptist, either.
Hello? I said "THEY". "They" does not mean YOU. Basic English 101.
> I do not believe that 'certain styles of music are of the devil,' I
> never have believed such a thing, and I have made that clear several
> times here, in this group, in the last week.
>
> In fact, day before yesterday I just burned a road-mix of several
> Christian metal bands to listen to in my car.
>
> But does /any/ of that make a difference to you -- or do you simply like
> your original opinion better, and just plan on ignoring these facts?
I'm listening. You say that certain types of music aren't of the devil
and then you go and say there are demonic artists out there..
> I mean, why let the facts get in the way of a good character
> assassination, right?
I'm not aiming at you. I'm aiming at your own contradiction: certain
types of music aren't of the devil AND there being demonic artists.
>>You said certain bands were demonic and certain people were demonic, and
>>the ONLY other people I see saying such stuff are those who have sold
>>their faith short..
>
>
> OH, so you are telling me that if you have enough FAITH, then you will
> know that there are no demonic people?
No. Read above..
> Hmm. Sounds to me like the kind
> of faith the devil is selling. Jesus Christ HIMSELF cast out demons.
> Are you telling me that HE didn't have enough faith to recognize that
> 'there are no demonic people?'
No. Try again, and read what I said ABOVE.
>>Do you subscribe to a view that certain styles of music are evil or demonic?
>>
>>"The hard, cold truth is that a lot of church hymns that maybe you don't
>>like, have helped millions upon millions of people grow into a closer
>>relationship with God." : by these words, it seems so..
>
>
> Dude, put down the crack pipe.
Dude, explain your contradiction.
>>>Like the fact that I only focus on the superficial trappings of Christ and
>>>His church, for instance.
>>
>>I didn't say you said this. Look again at my words. My point was about
>>what worship is, not about
>
>
> Worship is ascribing WORTH
Yeah, and if people don't know God, they'll ascribe WORTH to whatever
they can find.
That in itself is a point of contact for evangelism. Why the WORTH of
God is much greater than anything in this world.
If you actually understood those whom you seem to shun (because you
don't want to hear blasphemous stuff), perhaps you would understand this.
>>>Because I recognize that you cannot go out and lie, steal, or murder "so
>>>long as your heart is in the right place" does not mean that I believe
>>>Christianity is based on superficial works.
>>
>>Integrity means words and actions go hand in hand, matching up to each
>>other.
>
>
> Jack the Ripper had integrity because he never transgressed against what
> he thought he ought to do. He just went out and did it. His heart and
> his hands were not in conflict with one another. Personally, I'd rather
> be the friend of a weak Christian who is struggling to find his way,
> than be friends with Jack the Ripper.
Godwin's Law has now been invoked. Have a nice day :)
>>>Everyone should know that the faith of Christ is all about the condition
>>>of a man's heart. I have argued and defended that point as much if not
>>>more than anybody else on usenet these last 6 or so years.
>>
>>So where's the line that certain bands are demonic coming from ?
>
>
> Demonic music comes from demonic people. Whether that's elevator music
> or heavy metal; or anything inbetween. Likewise, inspired music comes
> from inspired people. Whether that's elevator music or heavy metal, or
> anything in between. This is all basic stuff. Christianity 101 stuff.
So where's the demon, dude?
>>>Nevertheless, that does not make the physical reality of the world we
>>>live in completely irrelevant.
>>
>>I never said it did..
>
>
> Then you agree that if a song lyric is blasphemous towards God, then
> that song dishonors God, right?
It still doesn't make the artist DEMONIC, right ?
>>>The good Samaritan was a friend of the wounded traveller BECAUSE he
>>>stopped to help, not because of what was going on in his head or his
>>>heart at the time.
>>
>>So how are you helping by calling certain bands demonic ?
>
> You do far, far more damage by implying Jesus Christ was off His rocker
> for casting demons out of people.
I never implied such. What makes you think I did imply such ?
I've also pointed out a gaping assumption you did on your own regarding
what I'm talking about.
> I'm sorry, but some people are just inspired by evil. Whether that idea
> is popular or not, is irrelevant -- it's simply true.
Inspired by evil is different than being demonic, isn't it ?
Inspiration is different than divine (or demonic) dictation.
You seem to be attacking a very generic evil-type thing. You swap terms
like demonic artists, inspired by evil and similar synonyms around like
they're going out of fashion. :-S
>>>The religious people who passed the traveller by may have had all kinds
>>>of 'good intentions' like they had to stay ceremonially clean for
>>>something or other when they arrived at their destination. In their
>>>hearts, they may well have believed that they were passing by the
>>>wounded traveller for the greater good of God's will.
>>
>>And like the Levite who passed by the wounded man, you think certain
>>bands are demonic / ritually unclean..
>
>
> What on earth are you talking about? The illustration was simply an
> example about how what we do in the physical world, MEANS something.
"There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence,
immorality, and open rebellion against God."
Where's the demon ?
In the music ?
In the lyric ?
In the artist ?
In the style?
Where?
>>>In truth, however, it was not the religious leaders that God approved
>>>of, but the Samaritan. Not because his heart was filled with pity and a
>>>desire to see the traveller well again, but because he stopped, and
>>>helped the poor man.
>>
>>"There are just some demonic artists who advocate chaos and violence,
>>immorality, and open rebellion against God."
>
>
> That remains true.
On what basis ?
Where's the demon you're trying to point out ? Where is it located ?
>>Have you at least sought to understand these artists, or is this your
>>vaunted opinion (without proof)?
>>
>>lawrence
>
>
> I don't listen to things that dishonor God. Blessed is the man who does
> NOT walk in the council of those hostile towards God, who does NOT stand
> in the practices of condemned people, and who does NOT dwell in the
> dwellingplace of mockers and scorners.
Then the Apostle Paul was being a heretic by debating the Athenians
regarding their religious persuasions, if I decide to apply your logic
to your brethren. He was, after all, in the marketplace of mockers and
scorners of the One True God.
> I learn enough about a [random] band to avoid injecting their poison
> into my own head. It is not my calling to analyze their lyric and point
> out to others why they are dishonoring God. Perhaps if you like, God
> will raise up a worker in His kingdom that DOES have that calling, and
> you can ask him.
>
> As for me, I will continue to do as God instructs, and to walk in truth.
You say you walk in truth. What use is truth without love and
understanding, even understanding of those who are rejecting God ?
> And I won't pretend that a lie is the truth, just because it would make
> me more popular either.
Nobody said anything about lies. Boy, you really, really, really, need
to chill out. :-S
lawrence
psalmsmith
In article <40d14...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com>,
Amazing Grace
Excuse me!!You are making a blanket statement here because you dont agree
with someone else that post here.
That is about as ridiculous as picking out a state and saying there are no
christians in it. You obviously dont know everyone here or you would know
better.
God Bless, Grace
Rowland Croucher
Interesting... and in my prayers this morning I was thanking the Lord for
the wonderful variety of committed Christian people on this newsgroup !!!
--
Shalom!
Rowland Croucher
http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/
psalmsmith
"Amazing Grace" <lad...@infionline.net> wrote:
> "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:psalmsmith-E845A...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> > In article <40d0e5b8$2$12960$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
> > "Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> > > news:psalmsmith-1BCFB...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> > > > In article <40ce...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> > > > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender
> stocks
> > > > his bar.
> > >
> > > Read John 2 :-)!
> >
> > And the wedding in Cana is supposed to somehow translate into the idea
> > that if a bar runs out of beer it's God's fault????
> >
> > Dear Lord, I hope nobody gets the idea that ANYBODY in this newsgroup
> > knows You!
>
> Excuse me!!You are making a blanket statement here because you dont agree
> with someone else that post here.
> That is about as ridiculous as picking out a state and saying there are no
> christians in it. You obviously dont know everyone here or you would know
> better.
> God Bless, Grace
>
>
If there /are/ any Christians in here, then they are AWFUL quiet in the
face of stuff like someone who says he is a Christian while praying for
people he doesn't like, to die. I tell you *I've* never been anywhere
where there were genuine Christians about, that let stuff like that
slide.
You are going to have to do better than that, to convince me that there
are any Christians left in this group.
I'm sorry Grace, but if you let behavior like that go unchallenged, then
you frankly deserve to have people wonder whether or not you are really
a Christian.
Seriously; why am I THE ONLY ONE IN HERE standing against the bizarre
notion that Marilyn Manson makes music that honors God more than the
majority of church hymns?
I am not kidding when I say that the Kingdom would be better off if
strangers coming into this group today thought NOBODY here was saved.
That is NOT the way it should be, obviously, but apparently nobody in
here cares enough about how it SHOULD be to stand up for it.
It's like "la-dee-dah" skipping rope outside of a concentration camp.
"well as long as they don't come for ME it's all good." I'm sorry
Grace, but that's just not good enough.
You don't have to challenge them if you don't want to; but if you don't,
then don't be suprised or offended when a believer comes by and reaches
the conclusion that there aren't any other believers in this group.
Diana
Firstly you speak to Ms. Grace with respect. Secondly
you are trying to keep the flame war going about Vera
and you will not succeed as Mark took that prayer off
his posts
Third you are not the only one who has said anything.
Sarah and others spoke out
Also just yesterday *I* told you that I did not agree
about Marilyn Manson. I listen to Southern Gospel Music
mainly and rarely listen to anything else.
So Glen if you do not like what Mark or others say it
is best you use your block sender as that is why it was
added to a newsreader. Or the delete key. Best thing
you want to stop someone from telling it wrong is stop
debating them and then they only have themselves to
debate with so think Glen doesn't that mean it will
stop then?
Please too many were hurt during that flame war so stop
bringing up things that happened. A lady just yesterday
came very humbly and apologized and she was a main
player so I think it needs dropped now. Unless you of
course Glen like discord.
Once again you have *ass*summed something about the
participants in this news group and that Glen is not
wise nor is it correct.
Diana
****TBC****
Mark, (MBT), Seems to be no more than a flamer here at Acc but because he
attacked Vera and Griz, MBT was welcomed by many in this group. Most of what
he says is anti-Christian or anti- church.
Like most flamers, his statement serve only to evoke a fleshly reaction that
then shows the concerned Christian in a bad light if he responds in anger,
sort of like Mike Bugal or Pastor Steve Winters but unlike most trolls or
flamers MBT from time to time post some interesting things and has been
polite to some.
Most of the mature Christians have backed away from this eight month flame
war while others try to show Mark the love of God through friendly
conversation.
MBT serve to teach all of us here at Acc to guard our hearts from all
bitterness.
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the
Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any
**root of bitterness** springing up trouble you, and thereby many be
defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for
one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when
he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place
of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
(Heb 12:14-17 KJV)
Mike Bugal
news:QYgAc.1368$1F6....@fe37.usenetserver.com...
> Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the
> Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any
> **root of bitterness** springing up trouble you, and thereby many be
> defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for
> one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when
> he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place
> of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
>
> (Heb 12:14-17 KJV)
Much as this unrepentant false witness bearing and reviling hypocrite will do at
the Throne... unless he comes to repentance before then. His "religion" that
allows him to sin without conscience will not save him, only true *relationship*
with the Father through Jesus Christ will. Where that relationship exists
arrogant sin (such as lying and reviling) cannot. Until then TBC is just a hell
bound religionist spouting the words of Christianity to fit in so that you may
be deceived, but totally unaffected by those words in his manner of life.
His and Yours,
Mike Bugal
Heartland Christian Ministries
http://www.hcm2.org
psalmsmith
"Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
wrote:
> "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> news:psalmsmith-E845A...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> > In article <40d0e5b8$2$12960$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>,
> > "Rowland Croucher" <rccro...@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > "psalmsmith" <psalm...@blyahoook.com> wrote in message
> > > news:psalmsmith-1BCFB...@news2-ge0.southeast.rr.com...
> > > > In article <40ce...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>,
> > > > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't think God has a whole lot to do with how well a bartender
> stocks
> > > > his bar.
> > >
> > > Read John 2 :-)!
> >
> > And the wedding in Cana is supposed to somehow translate into the idea
> > that if a bar runs out of beer it's God's fault????
> >
> > Dear Lord, I hope nobody gets the idea that ANYBODY in this newsgroup
> > knows You!
>
> Interesting... and in my prayers this morning I was thanking the Lord for
> the wonderful variety of committed Christian people on this newsgroup !!!
Committed to what, exactly?
Aside from the obvious non-christians and in-name-only-christians, all I
see is apathy and indifference. Maybe three regular posters who are
committed to follow Christ, and their numbers are dwindling daily.
The rest stand by and watch, uncaring, while mobs and gangs brutalize
people whose only crime is standing up for truth in Jesus Christ. (I am
absolutely NOT talking about myself here) I dunno - perhaps they find
it entertaining. All I know is that I /don't/ find it amusing.
Any Christians who ARE in here, should take this as a wake-up call. You
don't have to be as zealous about this as I am, in fact *I* don't even
want to be as zealous about this as I am. But it seems now I am the
only one in here taking a stand.
Five quiet voices speak louder than one person shouting at the top of
his lungs.
I could be about other business in this group; I'd MUCH rather be
posting studies and discussions &c. But watching these 'Christians'
sitting by and watching while hurting people get brutalized, without
saying a single word. has gotten me extraordinarily angry.
You folks can do that all you want, no problem. I have NO PROBLEM with
people who do not want to get involved -- but DO NOT act like that and
say it's 'Christian.' The Jesus Christ *I* know whould never act like
that.
Ninure Saunders
<m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote:
-"Brenda G. Kent" wrote:
-
-> Mark...you are such a refreshing change from some of the more
-> conservative Christians here.......so nice to hear from one who is not > a
-"Stepford" Christian!
-
-The whole point of my comments on this thread is to get people to think
-about what they do in their relationship with God.
-
-Words have meaning. All I've looked at in my comments are whether the lyric
-is praise and / or worship according to a dictionary definition. (This is a
-very superficial and shallow approach to what an artist does with a whole
-work of art) When I first stated that many Christians say it doesn't matter
-what you say (read previous posts) the cry was "Oh, yes it does m,atter what
-you say!" When you point out that what they say doesn't make sense then
-the cry changes to "It just matters what's in your heart." You can't have
-it BOTH ways!
-
-This is linked to why I don't attend church.
-
-The songs are usually sappy and I have a huge cd collection of much better
-songs I'd rather listen to and sing along to.
-
-The sermons are one-way communiction and one doesn't get to dialogue about
-the content. I learn faster fronm reading. The pastor can send me out a
-copy of his sermon and could read it in a minute.
-
-The prayers are made up and not spontaneous from the heart ... nor in a
-closet as Jesus said.
-
-10 minute weekly chat about the weather over instant coffee (I prefer the
-brewed stuff) isn't any type of community ...or reward for being bored to
-death for the past hour ... or up to two hours depending on the
-denomination.
-
-God is everywhere and not just in church on a Sunday.
-
-What's left in a church service that would be a benefit to me?
-
Well, you make some inter4esting points, let me share with you what I
gain.benefit from " goimh yo church" and or "worship service""
"My" congregation is truly a "community of faith".
1) We really do try and take care of each other. If someone falls sick,
or is hurt, or is need..we do try and help. Sometimes all we can do is
pray, sometines we can actually pick up a bill for rent, or food, or
medicine.
2) We celebrate together....no one HAS to spend a holiday alone for example.
3) We learn from each other...we are a diverse crowd. We are Black,
White, Asian , Asian. We come from different socio-economic strata. We
are different in where we are on our spiritual path/spiritual growth. I
have often said that if "we" had been anywhere else other than church..it
is doubtful that most of us would have bothered to take the time to know
and vare about each other..to make deep friendships.
4) Every Sunday we "do Communion"/"Share the Lord's Supper"...it is here
that many in my congregation tht they feel God's oresence most strongly
and geel the most connected to other human beings..I admit that is true
for me as well. There is nothing I can do byself that even comes close to
what I experience when I "share the bread and cup" with other believers!!
5) Okay this may sound trivial..but I lobr singing songs of praise to God
with a bunch of people. Its fun. I ca sing alone, but t just isn't the
same.
Hmmm.."church" seems to me, as I look at what I have written, which isn't
everything I could say, church is about God, me, and community.
Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
http://Rainbow-Christian.tk
The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My latest Poll
When is it okay to "ignore" the commands of Jesus?
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Votelet/35280
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
My Online Diary
http://www.ninure.deardiary.net
-
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
Amazing Grace
I have no intention of trying to convince you of anything. Its quite obvious
to the regulars here where you are coming from. This group is tired of
threats, demands and being told what we must do or we are not Christians.
We are tired of the flame wars.
I know that I am a Christian. Nothing you can think or say is going to
change that.
This is my last reply on this subject.
Grace
applegas
There are a lot of good Christian people here. You wouldn't know because
you have your blinders on.
Good luck and God bless,
Sarah
Feather Forestwalker
"(: Lawrence Meckan :)" <lme...@SMEEyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40d04...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com...
> Mike Bugal wrote:
>
> > "Mark Tindall" <m_b_t...@NOSPAMtpg.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:40d0347d$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> >
> >>"Mike Bugal" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>"As The Deer" (originally 1984 but back in wide usage again)
> >>>>
> >>>>Originally a love song from Song of Solomon but re-atributed to >God.
> >>>
> >>>Many consider the Song of Solomon to be an allegory of the
> >>>relationship between Christ and the church (the Bridegroom and the
> >>>Bride), so that attribution is natural.
> >>
> >>
> >>If so Jesus does naughty things with the church .....
> >
> >
> > You do understand what the word "allegory" means, don't you?
>
> Even if it's allegorical, it's still naughty :)
>
> lawrence
Why is the celebration of love between a man and a woman considered
"naughty"? Why is this obvious passage of Scripture so degraded by that
term? A husband and a wife are celebrating what GOD gave them, correct? So
how does that become "naughty"?
And if this expression of love between a husband and wife are considered
allegorical to Christ's love for the church (His Bride), the ecstacy
involved goes well beyond any fleshly understanding. . .
IMHO.
God bless,
Feather
---
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(: Lawrence Meckan :)
Mark has been quite open about where he got the "curse". It was from a
Christian Comedy book, parodying what churches do badly.
> I tell you *I've* never been anywhere where there were genuine Christians about, that let stuff like that
> slide.
And you're a genuine Christian and everyone else who disagrees with your
POV isn't?
> You are going to have to do better than that, to convince me that there
> are any Christians left in this group.
Psalmsmith, there are Christians in this NG. Some of them just don't
agree with you :)
> I'm sorry Grace, but if you let behavior like that go unchallenged, then
> you frankly deserve to have people wonder whether or not you are really
> a Christian.
Now that's effective. Not. :-P
A veiled threat bringing the salvation of Grace into question simply to
prop up your vaunted rant that there's no Christians in this NG.
> Seriously; why am I THE ONLY ONE IN HERE standing against the bizarre
> notion that Marilyn Manson makes music that honors God more than the
> majority of church hymns?
Because you're the ONLY ONE who believes everyone else is saying such a
thing.
Perhaps that's why you're standing up against such weird behaviour;
because the weird behaviour is your own shortcomings and
misunderstanding of other people's perspective coming into play..
> I am not kidding when I say that the Kingdom would be better off if
> strangers coming into this group today thought NOBODY here was saved.
Well, considering your rant is based on a misunderstanding on your part,
perhaps you should look to get your house in order before you go around
saying every else isn't a Christian ?
> That is NOT the way it should be, obviously, but apparently nobody in
> here cares enough about how it SHOULD be to stand up for it.
And what way SHOULD it be ?
Demonic artists are in the world (you can't even show this), so
therefore you condemn certain types of people since you can't even show
where this demon is..
> It's like "la-dee-dah" skipping rope outside of a concentration camp.
> "well as long as they don't come for ME it's all good." I'm sorry
> Grace, but that's just not good enough.
It's not good enough for you to pontificate your views based on a
misunderstanding on your part. You play the part of a court jester too
easily.
> You don't have to challenge them if you don't want to; but if you don't,
> then don't be suprised or offended when a believer comes by and reaches
> the conclusion that there aren't any other believers in this group.
Then perhaps if you listened to those around you, you might NOT end up
with such an understanding IN THE FIRST PLACE..
All I see is Psalmsmith ranting and raving on and on how there are no
Christians in this newsgroup when you have shown yourself unable to
engage perspectives and ideas DIFFERENT than your own. It's what seems
to have cascaded into this misunderstanding about Marilyn Manson as
worship in the first place.
Have a good morning,
lawrence
Mark Tindall
> > > I'd rather that a visitor coming in here believed EVERYBODY was
> > > lost, than to accept bizarre ideas like Marilyn Manson makes better >
> > worship music than most church hymns!
> > I've never said that.> >
> > Marilyn Manson makes better art than most Jesus Jingles.
>
> Just because you PERSONALLY would
> rather listen to death metal then church hymns, doesn't mean that all
> church hymns suck, and all death metal is cool.
I didn't sday that. I said "Marilyn Manson makes better art than most Jesus
Jingles."
You are assuming that all hymns are Jesus Jingles. I use the term Jesus
Jingles for all types of kitsch music in the church.
> Your actions and speech are a product of what you feed your brain.
So ........ if you feed your brain on mindless Kristyun Kitsch .....????
That is my point!!!!
Mark Tindall
> Mark, (MBT), Seems to be no more than a flamer here at Acc ...
>Most of what he says is anti-Christian or anti- church.
Have you ever bothered to D I A L O G U E with me ...or are you going to
remain twice as boring?
> fleshly
Ah ...the ol' Grizian dichotomy raises its ugly head.
Such Trew Kristyun luv!
--
######################
... quoting from James Barr's book "Fundamentalism" on the three
distinguishing features of the Fundamentalist '... an assurance that those
who do not share their religious viewpoint are not really true Christians at
all.' - Peter Cameron "Heretic" (Doubleday; Sydney: 1994) p. 178
Mark Tindall
> in my prayers this morning I was thanking the Lord for
> the wonderful variety of committed Christian people on this >newsgroup !!!
Ditto!
Mark Tindall
> I could be about other business in this group; I'd MUCH rather be
> posting studies and discussions &c.
I've been discussing art and the church (in the context of songs) with you
and given you plenty of information an links. Lawrence also entered the
discussion.
You have turned the discussion to a flame of the other Christians on ACC.
Such Trew Kristyun luv!
applegas
Mark,
I'm afraid that psalmsmith isn't actually listening to what you are
saying. He apparently has Vera disease, in that he only reads what he
wants to and turns it against you.
So, we have another person to tell us how we aren't Christians. Happy
Happy Joy Joy!
God bless you!
Sarah
Mark Tindall
> "My" congregation is truly a "community of faith".
As it should be.
> 1) We really do try and take care of each other. If someone falls
> sick, or is hurt, or is need..we do try and help. Sometimes all we
> can do is pray, sometines we can actually pick up a bill for rent, or
> food, or medicine.
I have had more help from aheist friends in this manner than from any group
of Christians.
> 2) We celebrate together....no one HAS to spend a holiday alone for
>example.
I see the church service as a celebration with all that implies.
> 3) We learn from each other...we are a diverse crowd. We are
> Black, White, Asian , Asian. We come from different socio-
> economic strata. We are different in where we are on our spiritual
>path/spiritual growth. I have often said that if "we" had been anywhere
>else other than church..it is doubtful that most of us would have
>bothered to take the time to know and vare about each other..to make >deep
friendships.
This was the case in a great church we belonged to in Sydney. In Maitland,
the City of Excitement, it is unusual to see any other than middle class
under-educated whites.
> 4) Every Sunday we "do Communion"/"Share the Lord's Supper"...
My best experiences of this were at Teachers College with fresh baked flat
bread and grape juice ... and a big meal. ike an entree to a banquet.
> 5) Okay this may sound trivial..but I lobr singing songs of praise to
> God with a bunch of people. Its fun. I ca sing alone, but t just isn't
the
> same.
I enjoy it if the songs have meaning.
> Hmmm.."church" seems to me, as I look at what I have written, which >
isn't everything I could say, church is about God, me, and community.
It is the community aspect that church isn't about in my local area. I'd
find more community going along to the local pub.