The Deity of Christ in Scripture
glenn
The Deity of Christ in Scripture
Jesus [the Spirit of Christ] existed before the [physical, human] man
Jesus was born. That simple fact, as found in scripture, clearly proves
the deity of Christ.
[KJV] Genesis 1:26
"And God said, Let us make man in our image.
Note that the term "Us" indicates TWO Beings.
Moses clearly tells us that Father and Son were together at the creation
of the heavens and earth, and made us in their own [likeness] image.
Since Father and Son were together before creation and were together at
and during creation, then the Son is deity.
[KJV] John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the*] God, and
the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with [the] God. All
things were made by him; and without him [Spirit of Christ] was not any
thing made that was made.
*See John 1:1 at
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
John clearly tells us that the Son of God, the Word, the expression of
God, was with God the Father BEFORE Creation, and was in fact
instrumental in the Creation of all that exists.
Since John tells us that the Spirit of Christ was with His Father before
creation, he proves the deity of Christ.
[KJV] John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am. [I exist.]
John clearly tells us that Jesus stated that He [Jesus] was older than
Abraham, that He PREEXISTED Abraham, therefore, that He [Jesus] was a
living [Spirit] being before Abraham was born, and BEFORE [the human
being] Jesus was born!
The subject of the discussion between Jesus and the Jewish Pharisees was
"how old are you?" The CONTEXT was not who he was, or if he appeared to
Moses in the burning bush, but how old he was.
The trinitarians must remove this verse from it's context in an attempt
to falsify it's meaning in order to defend the false doctrine of the
triune god!
Jesus STATED He was older than Abraham, thus He states that he is deity.
[THAT is what the Pharisees understood him to mean, and THAT is why they
wanted to stone him.]
The Spirit of Christ:
[KJV] Romans 8:9
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the
Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of
Christ, he is none of his.
Paul clearly defines two Spirit Beings: the Spirit of God, and the
Spirit of Christ.
[KJV] I Peter 1:11
"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was
in them did signify, when it [Spirit of Christ] testified beforehand the
sufferings of [the death of Jesus] Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Peter clearly states that the Spirit of Christ "was in them"... That the
Spirit of Christ pre-existed the man born as the son of Mary, Jesus.
Since the Spirit of Christ [that is, Jesus] "was in them" and testified
to them, then the scripture clearly teaches the deity of Christ.
Therefore, since the scripture clearly teaches the deity of Christ ASIDE
from and APART from the false doctrine of a triune god (trinity), then
to deny the false doctrine of the trinity is NOT to deny the deity of
Christ.
Glenn
His witness
Acts 1:18, Rev 11:3
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat
in the tent door in the heat of the day;
18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by
him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door,
and bowed himself toward the ground,
18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight,
pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Notice: three persons, One Lord
Matt
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Notice: Name singular, three persons
Jim
The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
Mystery of the Trinity.
glenn
> Gen
>
> 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat
> in the tent door in the heat of the day;
>
> 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by
> him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door,
> and bowed himself toward the ground,
>
> 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight,
> pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
>
>
> Notice: three persons, One Lord
False:
Three MEN (not three persons)
ONE of those men was the Lord
Two of those men were angles WITH the Lord.
>
> Matt
>
> 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations,
> baptizing them in the
> name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
>
> Notice: Name singular, three persons
False:
Mat 28:19 was falsified AFTER the pagans began to use Greek metaphysical
logic to formulate false doctrine.
The doctrine of a triune god is false doctrine: it is NOT a doctrine
which Christ taught to his disciples, and the Apostles did NOT include
that false doctrine in the New Testament.
Glenn
r m
> Gen
>
> 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat
> in the tent door in the heat of the day;
>
> 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by
> him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door,
> and bowed himself toward the ground,
>
> 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight,
> pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
>
> Notice: three persons, One Lord
That's not convincing since we know that "you cannot see my face, for
man shall not see me and live."
I
>> Gen 18:1
...
>> Notice: three persons, One Lord
>
> That's not convincing since we know that "you cannot see my face, for
> man shall not see me and live."
There is another problem.
1. There are three men - and no god who is one of the humans.
2. The three men are greeted with "lord" not the divine name.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BERESHIT
(Book of Genesis)
Chapter 18
1. And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the
tent door in the heat of the day;
2
and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against
him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed
down to the earth,
3
and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away,
I pray thee, from thy servant.
from http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Genesis18.htm#1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & links
http://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
MY SOUNDCLICK PAGE- download my original songs in mp3 format
http://www.soundclick.com/marktindall
r m
> "r m" wrote:
> >> Gen 18:1
> ...
> >> Notice: three persons, One Lord
>
> > That's not convincing since we know that "you cannot see my face, for
> > man shall not see me and live."
>
> There is another problem.
>
> 1. There are three men - and no god who is one of the humans.
> 2. The three men are greeted with "lord" not the divine name.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> BERESHIT
> (Book of Genesis)
> Chapter 18
> 1. And HaShem appeared unto him by the terebinths of Mamre, as he sat in the
> tent door in the heat of the day;
> 2
> and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against
> him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed
> down to the earth,
> 3
> and said: 'My lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away,
> I pray thee, from thy servant.
>
> fromhttp://www.hareidi.org/bible/Genesis18.htm#1
There's the possibility that the 3 men were God's messengers (angels)
which makes sense. Yes, I'd noticed that the 'lord' in Gen 18:3 is
not the divine name, too.
I put it down to be piece of incidental account detail like 3 visitors
that came to see the infant Jesus (yet no one makes a theological
point about it).
Cheers.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> --
> MY BLOG - MARK T - my thoughts on Christianity & linkshttp://www.blognow.com.au/strooth/
pyotr filipivich
Dec 2009 19:54:48 -0800 (PST) did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
Because there were not "three magi". "Some is a non-determinate
number.
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
r m
> Let the Record show that r m <roym...@gmail.com> on or about Tue, 8
thnx - point taken
Cheers.
LuckyLuke
"glenn" <gamc...@spiritone.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:4b1ef0c0$0$52303$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
>
> [KJV] Genesis 1:26
> "And God said, Let us make man in our image.
You just proved the deity of Men in Scripture...
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Wesley P. Walters
As different as para-Christian groups or cults are from each other,
most have one thing in common: they hate the biblical teaching of the
Trinity. They want their God to be simplistic, uncomplicated, and less
complex than the world He created. They want a God reduced to terms
they can get their finite minds around.
Modern advances in science have shown that the created world is an
extremely complex mechanism. Those who work in nuclear physics or
molecular biology are continually discovering the complexity of the
world God has created.
In fact, some complex, seemingly contradictory data has yet to be
fitted into a rational system that explains the relationships. A
simple thing like "light" is known to move like "waves" yet strike
like "particles." Atomic physicists are still struggling to put
together a theory that can fully explain this apparent contradiction.
Those who work in the complex mathematical equations of quantum
mechanics are told by their instructors that "If you think that you
really understand quantum mechanics and how it applies to reality,
that proves you do not understand it." One of the basic theorems is
that if the speed of a particle is known, then its location can not be
known, and the more accurately you know its location, the less
accurately you know its speed. This does not seem very logical to the
average person, but it works very well in atomic physics, in which
scientists get very close to the essence of matter.
Thus, while scientists are continually learning more about how complex
and even apparently contradictory the world of created reality is,
cults that reject the complexity of the God who made this reality are
proliferating. They, along with Moslems and modern Jews, taunt
Christians, saying: "How can there be just one God, and yet the Father
be God, the Son be God and the Holy Spirit be God? Is He the Son of
Himself and the Father of both?"
Even though Christ Himself taught that the name [singular] of God in
which we baptize is Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19), all
cults falsely assert that the doctrine of the Trinity is a teaching
that grew out of fourth century paganism. So unified are the cults in
this assertion that they appear to be using the same erroneous Church
history book and parroting one another.
The truth is that by the time of Christ, the first century A.D., the
Jews themselves, on the basis of the Old Testament, were coming to an
understanding of the complexity of Yahweh.
The Teachings of The Targums
When the Jews returned from Babylonian captivity 450 years before the
birth of Jesus, they had adopted Aramaic as their native language.
Although it is a dialect of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic is about as
different from it as modern Italian is from its classical Latin
ancestor. Consequently, during the first and early second centuries
A.D., Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Old Testament were made.
These translations, called Targums, were The Living Bibles of their
day, an interpretive paraphrase of Scripture. They help us see how
these first-century Jews understood their Old Testament.
One of the striking things these Targums show is that first century
Jews had come to understand the phrase "the Word of God" as referring
to a divine entity within God Himself, yet distinguishable at times
from God. J.W. Etheridge, in the introduction to his translations of
the Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan, has given us a number of examples
of this Jewish understanding of the term, "the Word" (Aramaic: Memra).
In Genesis 18:1, where the Hebrew Bible says Yahweh (Jehovah) appeared
to Abraham, the Targum says, "The Word of the Lord appeared to
Abraham." Further on, where the Hebrew reports "Yahweh rained down
upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of
heaven," the Targum states that "the Word of the Lord sent down upon
them sulphur and fire from the presence of the Lord out of
heaven." (Genesis 19:24)
In Genesis 16, when Hagar sees "the Angel of the Lord," the Targum
says she saw "the Word of the Lord." After seeing this "Word" (Memra)
she says, "Here has been revealed the glory of the Shekineh of the
Lord." Then, according to the Jerusalem Targum, "Hagar returned thanks
and prayed in the name of the Word of the Lord, who had appeared to
her." Thus the Word not only is regard- ed as the presence of deity,
but is in some manner personally distinguishable from the Lord.
In Genesis 28:20 the Targum of Onkelos paraphrases Jacob's vow, "If
God will be with me... then Yahweh will be my God" with the words, "If
the Word of the Lord will be my help... the Word of the Lord shall be
my God." Again, the Angel of Yahweh who spoke to Moses at the burning
bush (Exodus 3:14) is designated by the Jerusalem Targum as "the Word
of the Lord."
The distinct personality of this Divine Word is seen pointedly in
Jonathan's Targum of Isaiah 63:7-10. There, where the Hebrew text
speaks of Yahweh being their Savior, the Targum reads, "the Word
(Memra) was their Redeemer." (vs. 8) When the Israelites continued to
disobey, then "His Word (Memra) became their enemy, and fought against
them" -- an action ascribed to Yahweh in the Hebrew text. Again in
Isaiah 45:22 the Targum of Jonathan exhorts, "Look unto My Word and be
saved."
While this personalizing of the Word was being expressed in Palestine
in the Targums of Jesus' day, Philo, an Egyptian Jew and contemporary
of Jesus, was expressing similar thoughts in even more distinct words.
In his essay "On the Creation," Philo states that man was not made in
the image of some creature, but in the image of God's own uncreated
Word. He wrote: "for the Creator, we know, employed for its making no
pattern taken from among created things, but solely, as I have said,
His own Word."
Philo continues: "Man was made a likeness and imitation of the Word,
when the Divine Breath was breathed into his face. ("On the Creation,"
XLVIII: 139, Loeb Edition I, pp. 110-111)
In his work on Noah, Philo again expresses the teaching that man is
made by "the First Cause" (that is, God) in the image of "the Eternal
Word:" "Our great Moses likened the fashion of the rea- sonable soul
to no created thing, but averred it to be a genuine coinage of that
dread Spirit, the Divine and Invisible One, signed and impressed by
the seal of God, the stamp of which is the Eternal Word."
He continues: "...man has been made after the Image of God (Genesis
1:27), not however after the image of anything created... man's soul
having been made after the image of the Archetype, the Word of the
First Cause." ("Noah's Work as a Planter," I:18-20, Loeb III, pp.
222-223)
Thus, the eternal Word is in some sense distinguishable from God, and
yet at the same time is, like God, uncreated, rational and the bearer
of the divine image. This comes very close to the teaching of the New
Testament that the Word was distinguishable from God, and yet was God.
As John 1:1 expresses it, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word
was with God, and the Word was God." It also appears similar to Paul's
teaching that the Son is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians
1:15); and the writer of Hebrews statement that the Son "is the exact
representation of His being." (Hebrews 1:3)
Philo, however, goes further. He says that God is the king and
shepherd of all creation, but rules and controls it through his
eternally existing Word, whom Philo calls God's "First-born Son."
His "hallowed flock" of created things God directs by his divine laws,
setting over it His true Word and first-born son, who shall take upon
Him its government like some viceroy of a great king. ("On Husbandry,"
I:51, Loeb III, pp. 134-135)
Philo has God expressing Himself in this manner: "I alone... sustained
the Universe to rest firm and sure upon the Mighty Word, who is My
viceroy." ("On Dreams," I:241, Loeb V, pp. 424- 425)
Therefore this eternal Word, God's first-born Son, is the upholder of
the whole creation, "the everlasting Word of the eternal God is the
very sure and staunch prop of the Whole. He it is, who extending
Himself from the midst to its utmost bounds... keeps up through all
its length Nature's unvanquished course, combining and compacting all
its parts. For the Father who begat Him constituted His Word such a
Bond of the Universe as nothing can break." ("Noah's Work as a
Planter," I:8-9, Loeb III, pp. 216-217)
This reflects the same thought that Paul expressed about the Son as
being the one "in whom all things hold together." (Colossians 1:17) It
also reminds also reminds us of Hebrews 1:3, which depicts the Son as
"sustaining all things by his powerful Word."
Philo continues his discussion of the Word by maintaining that to
those incapable of seeing the supreme cause, God Himself, He appears
to them in the form of His Angel, the Word: "For just as those who are
unable to see the sun itself, see the gleam of the parahelion and take
it for the sun, and take the halo round the moon for that luminary
itself, so some regard the image of God, His Angel, the Word, as His
very self." ("On Dreams," I:239, Loeb V, pp. 422-423) This sounds very
similar to the teaching tha t the Son is "the radiance (or outshining)
of God's glory" (Hebrews 1:3), the only part of God's nature that
people are allowed to see. This is true because "no one has ever seen
God," but "the only begotten God... He has made Him known." (John
1:18) Thus, Jesus, the Son, can say, "Anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father." (John 14:9)
Philo further explained that God, being light, is "the archetype of
every other light." As such He is "prior to and high above every
archetype." Thus He holds the position of "a model of a model," that
is, He is the model for His Word, which Word becomes the model for
creation. The Word, therefore, contains all the qualities of God. As
Philo expressed it, "the model or pattern was the Word which contained
all His fullness -- light, in fact." ("On Dreams," I:75, Loeb V, pp.
336-337) Paul expressed a similar thought when he wrote that in the
Son all God's fullness dwells. (Colossians 1:19; 2:9)
To Philo, therefore, the Word of God is the eternal, uncreated Word
containing all the fullness of God and bearing His image. That divine
image which the Word bears is the image in which man was created. The
Word is further the sustainer, upholder and ruler of the world,
carrying on the governing of all things, as God's viceroy, and
containing all God's fullness.
While the Word is not a created thing and carries on all the functions
of God, Philo is clear that there are not two gods -- although he does
not attempt to explain how this can be. Philo's teaching is,
therefore, very close to the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Philo
reached his conclusions without the aid of the New Testament and
certainly without deriving his ideas from pagan notions of deity. The
Old Testament teaching that the Angel of Yahweh is really the presence
of Yahweh Himself seems to have strongly influenced Philo's ideas.
To relegate the doctrine of the Trinity, therefore, to a fourth-
century adaptation of paganism is to ignore the conclusions that
several Jewish theologians and teachers had reached four centuries
earlier, from God's revelations given to Israel before the time of the
coming of Christ. At the very time that the Word was becoming flesh
(John 1:1, 14), Jewish writers were already beginning to see that
God's Word could in some way be distinguished from God the Father
Himself, yet have all the fullness of God contained in Him.
http://prophecyarchive.com/ray/barr-family.com/godsword/trinity.htm
®
r m <roy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's not convincing since we know that "you cannot see my face, for
> man shall not see me and live."
On the Deity of Christ in Scripture...
John 8:23-24
(23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from
above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:58-59 NIV
(58) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was
born, I am!"
(59) At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid
himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 10:30-33 NIV
(30) I and the Father are one."
(31) Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
(32) but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great
miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
(33) "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the
Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Philippians 2:6-7 KJV
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the
form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of
angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
Do you believe the doctrine of Christ is that Jesus is God, or do
you claim He is only a man?
Hebrews 4:15 NIV
(15) For we do not have a high priest who is unable to
sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been
tempted in every way, just as we are�yet was without sin.
John 8:46-47 NIV
(46) Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the
truth, why don't you believe me?
(47) He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you
do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
2 Corinthians 5:21 NIV
(21) God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in
him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 Peter 2:22 NIV
(22) "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
Do you believe that the doctrine of Christ is that Jesus was
without sin, or do you believe He was a sinful man?
Joel 2:32 NIV
(32) And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be
saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be
deliverance, as the LORD has said, among the survivors whom the
LORD calls.
(Note: LXX has "Kurios" for "LORD")
(LORD = YHVH, from H1961 ("to exist"), self existing, or eternal
(Strongs')
"The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel,
particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses
(Exo_6:2-3)" (WordStudy)
Exodus 3:14-15 NIV
(14) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to
say to the Israelites: 'I AM (H1961) has sent me to you.'"
(15) God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD,
the God of your fathers�the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and
the God of Jacob�has sent me to you.' This is my name forever,
the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to
generation.
John 8:58-59 NIV
(58) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was
born, I am!"
(59) At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid
himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
John 8:23-24
(23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from
above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
(24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
Now, back to the fulfillment of Joel 2:32:
Romans 10:9-13 NASB
(9) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and
believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will
be saved;
(10) for with the heart a person believes, resulting in
righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in
salvation.
(11) For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT
BE DISAPPOINTED."
(12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the
same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on
Him;
(13) for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Same word for "Lord" as the LXX uses for LORD in Joel 2:32.
Except this time, it directly shows Jesus as the Lord who is the
fulfillment of that prophecy.
Do you believe the doctrine of Christ is that God saves people
who reject the idea that Jesus is God, and who claim He is a
sinful man, or do you believe it's necessary to believe He is
sinless God?
Do you want to share in the ministry of someone who does not
abide in the doctrine of Christ, by greeting and welcoming such a
person?
(See: http://bit.ly/5Lc1jV or
<bICdnf16Scn3IIjW...@giganews.com>).
<4a81...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>
(http://bit.ly/5gNQkG)
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
I
> On the Deity of Christ in Scripture...
Jesus of Nazareth is NOT the Exclusive One God Yahweh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COMPARISON BETWEEN
THE ONE GOD YAHWEH
&
THE HUMAN JESUS OF NAZARETH
The infinite One God Yahweh is:
- everywhere (omnipresent):
- all knowing (omniscient)
- all powerful (omnipotent)
- Spirit
- eternal, self-existent
- invisible
- immutable (unchangeable)
- does not urinate, deficate or pass wind.
- does not get tired or sleep.
- does not die.
- sends but is not sent
- rules but is not ruled over
- commands but is not commanded
- anoints the human Messiah / Christ
BUT
The finite historic time / space human Jesus of Nazareth is:
- confined / restricted to his human body
- doesn't know when the end will come
- heals a man in stages with spittle and dust
- cannot do miracles because of people's unbelief.
- human flesh with a spirit.
- began as a fetus inside Mary
- totally visible from his birth till his death.
- changed in the normal physical and psychological stages of all humans /
aged.
- urinated, deficated and passed wind.
- got tired and slept
- died by Roman execution.
- was sent and did not send
- is ruled over
- is commanded
- is anointed by God
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
Exodus 20:1-6 (JPS Tanakh)
"I the LORD (YAHWEH) am your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
the house of bondage: You shall have NO OTHER GODS BESIDE ME (YAHWEH)." -
Deuteronomy 5:6-7 (JPS Tanakh)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people of
Israel "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage".
THEREFORE
Jesus is NOT the infinite One God Yahweh and "You will have no gods other
than me (the infinite One God Yahweh)".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Who is greater the ANOINTER or the ANOINTED?
The ANOINTER (the One God / Yahweh) is far greater than the ANOINTED:
1. CYRUS (Isaiah 45:1)
2. THE PATRIACHS (Psalm 105:15)
3. ISRAEL (Habakkuk 3:13, Psalm 28: 8; 84:10)
4. JESUS OF NAZARETH (Act 2:36)
IF "Messiah" means "God" then why aren't Cyrus, the Patriachs and Israel
considered to be the One God (Yahweh) alongside Jesus of Nazareth???????
-
"God was IN Christ" (2 Cor. 5:19-21) NOT "God WAS Christ"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JESUS baptised for the forgiveness of his SINS
DOES GOD SIN?????
- Mark 1:4 "John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, PREACHING A
BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS."
- Matthew 3:6 "They were BAPTISED by him the river Jordan, CONFESSIING THEIR
SIN"
- Luke 3:3 " and he went into all the region about the Jordan, PREACHING A
BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN"
ANY sinner seeing Jesus of Nazareth being baptised by John the Baptist would
immeditely think that it was the SAME baptism that Johnthe Baptist had
always given - BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS" - the
phrase that is used repeatedly for John the Baptist's baptism.
ANY sinner seeing Jesus of Nazareth being baptised by John the Baptist would
also immeditely think that Jesus had repented of his sins for there was NO
OTHER REASON that John the Baptist baptised.
If John the Baptist HAD baptised Jesus differently then he would have stated
so and made sure to say that "Jesus is God! He doesn't need forgiveness. I
am about to baptise him for his ministry." INSTEAD JOHN THE BAPTIST IS NOT
SURE THAT JESUS OF NAZARETH IS "THE ONE" (MESSIAH / CHRIST)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Read Matthew 11: 2-3 and Luke 7:19.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 11: 2-3
Now when John heard about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his
disciples and said to him,"ARE YOU HE WHO IS TO COME, OR SHALL WE LOOK FOR
ANOTHER?"
Luke 7: 19
And John, calling to him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord,
saying, "ARE YOU HE WHO IS TO COME, OR SHALL WE LOOK FOR ANOTHER?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above two passages clearly demonstrate that John the Baptist didn't
think Jesus of Nazareth was the One God Yahweh and was uncertain whether he
was really the Messiah / Christ!!!!!
One should use one's God-given mind and integrate what is clearly stated by
John the Baptist in Matthew 11: 2-3 (written 85 CE) and Luke 7:19 (written
90
CE). I also note that the later John's Gospel (written 90 - 120 CE) omits
John the Baptist's questions as well as his baptism of Jesus as, by this
time,
it is an embarrassment to have Jesus as "god" being baptised for his sins
and then later being asked wherther he really is the Messiah or not by the
person who did the baptism!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18 - He (JESUS) said to him, "Why do you ask ME
about the good ? There is ONLY ONE who is good, that is, GOD.
Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34 (JESUS speaking) "MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast thou
forsaken me?
John 14:28 - My Father (YAHWEH) is GREATER than I (JESUS)
John 20:17 - "I [Jesus] am ascending to MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, MY GOD
AND YOUR GOD"
Act 2:36 - " Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that GOD
[YAHWEH] has MADE him both Lord (BOSS) and Christ, this JESUS whom you
crucified."
1 Corinthians 11:3 - The HEAD of Christ is GOD.
1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is ONE GOD God, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND
MEN, the MAN Christ Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 5:31 - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 1:18 - No man has seen god.
Since people saw Jesus of Nazareth - then Jesus of Nazareth CANNOT be God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Numbers 23: 19 - God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man,
that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he
promise and not fulfill?
Mark 13: 32 - "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
If God and Jesus were the same person, how come the son does not know the
time, only the father does??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus himself is not the proper object of faith.
...
Jesus called on his followers to trust the Father, to believe in God's
domain or reign. The proper object of faith inspired by Jesus is to trust
what Jesus trusted. For that reasonm, I am not primarily interested in
affirmations about Jesus but in the truths that inspired and informed Jesus.
To call for faith in Jesus is to subsititute the agent for the reality, the
proclaimer for the proclaimed. ...
Jesus pointed to God's domain, something he did not create, something he
did not control. I want to discover what Jesus saw, or heard, or sensed that
was so enchanting, so mezmerizing, so challenging that it held Jesus in its
spell. And I do not want to bhe misled by what his followers did: instead of
looking to see what he saw, his devoted disciples tended to stare at the
pointing finger. Jesus himself should notbe, must not be, the object of
faith. That would be to repeat the idolatry of the first believers.
From Robert W. Funk "Honest To Jesus: Jesus for a New Millenium" (Hodder &
Stoughton: 1996) pp. 304-305
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Trinitarianism ... the belief that there are three to the essence of God, is
a belief accepted by all contemporary Christians. Judaism strongly
disagrees. It stands firm in maintaining that God is One - without
partners, self-sufficient, and indivisible. ... One is not Three and Three
is not One. ... Judaism has serious difficulties with a number of
trinitarian major premises:
- God is not human. Man is not God. The Christian doctrine of the
Incarnation ... goes against the fundamental Jewish belief that God is
incorporeal - that He has no body and cannot be affected by any of the
weaknesses of the flesh. To say that God died then died on the cross seems
incomprehensible. God cannot die - just as He does not "live" in human
form.
- To worship Jesus as God is to violate the commandment that "You shall have
no other gods before Me." ... "And the man Moses ..." (Numbers 12:3). God
was careful to delineate the difference between Himself and human beings.
Jews can't accept that a man or woman could possibly be God.
- Most disturbing of all to the Jewish idea of monotheism in the Trinity is
that Judaism recognises no intermediary between God and man. The first of
the Ten Commandments, "I am the LORD your God," is written with a Hebrew
word that implies a singular "your." God speaks to every person directly
and says, "I am accessible to you without any middle man." For the Jew,
this means that he has an open line to God Himself. Praying to the Son to
get to the Father goes against one of the major beliefs of Judaism, as later
codified by Maimonides: "To Him and to Him alone shall you pray directly."
A Jew belives that no-one else is supposed to talk for him, live for him -
and certainly not die for him.
from Rabbi Benjamin Blech "The Complete Idiot's Guide To Understanding
Judaism" (Alpha:2003) pp. 9-10
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pre-Easter Jesus / Post-Easter Jesus
4 B.C.E. to 30 C.E. / 30 C.E. to present
Corporeal, human being of flesh and blood Spiritual / non-material
reality
Finite and mortal / Infinite, eternal
Human / Divine
A Jewish peasant / King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Figure of the past / Figure of the present
Jesus of Nazareth / Jesus Christ
Monotheistic Jew / Becomes the second person of the trinity, "God with a
human face"
Galilean Jew of the first century / "The Face of God" (metaphor based on
2 Cor. 4:6 Beholding the glory of God in the face of Christ)
The ONLY AUTHENTIC human time / space historic Jesus of Nazareth is the
Pre-Easter Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE CONFUSION OF LORDS
"Lord" = "YHWH" in the Old Testament
"Lord" = "lord / boss" (refering to Jesus of Nazareth) in the New Testament
THEREFORE
YHWH = Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The confusion only works because of the substituted word ("Lord") for "YHWH"
in the Old Testament is the same word for "boss" in the New Testament.
--
Lord does not mean God.
Lord means master / boss.
1) property owners are called Lord (Matt. 20:8, kurios is "owner" - NIV)
2) heads of households were called Lord (Mk 13:35, owner=kurios).
3) slave owners were called Lord (Matt. 10:24, master=kurios).
4) husbands were called Lord (1 Pet. 3:6, master=kurios).
5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30, sir=kurios).
6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26, His Majesty=kurios).
7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63, sir=kurios).
glenn
That several Jewish theologians conceived that "The Word" was
distinguished from God the Father is NOT in any way support for the
pagan doctrine of a triune god.
glenn
false assumption.
®
glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
> the pagan doctrine of a triune god.
Are you calling Diana a "pagan"?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:04:40 GMT,
In newsgroup "alt.christnet.christianlife",
Article <s329h.30186$pq4....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>,
Subject: For those who really really care
"Diana" <NO@.NO.com> wrote:
**************************************************************
We believe in one God, existing eternally in three persons,
identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and
referred to as the Holy Trinity.
**************************************************************
Meanwhile, which Bible truth do you reject?
1) Jesus is God (the Being)
2) There is only one God.
Mordecai
� wrote:
> On Wed, 12/09/09, at 5:15:22PM,
> glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
> > the pagan doctrine of a triune god.
>
> Are you calling Diana a "pagan"?
>
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:04:40 GMT,
> In newsgroup "alt.christnet.christianlife",
> Article <s329h.30186$pq4....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>,
> Subject: For those who really really care
> "Diana" <NO@.NO.com> wrote:
> **************************************************************
> We believe in one God, existing eternally in three persons,
> identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and
> referred to as the Holy Trinity.
> **************************************************************
>
> Meanwhile, which Bible truth do you reject?
>
> 1) Jesus is God (the Being)
> 2) There is only one God.
Number one of course.
This "great and fantastic truth" is not stated but ... there are only
"pointers' which people use to CONCLUDE this.
Mean while, i will leave you telling people that
1) The Jews who know whom we worship ... worship JC.
2) In knowing whom we worship, we consciously worship JC
Such wondrous biblical truths you espouse.
Oh I forgot. JC was "hidden" from us Jews so JC was a stupid lying git when
he said we know whom we worship and we only worshiped the father as we do
not know JC who is our G_d whom we know except ... do not know him whom we
worship.
No no no. I forgot. JC was not part of the trinity until he died and then
he became G_d and thus only after JC died did he become the G_d of Israel
and not to be confused with Yahweh, as the name of G_d used to be Yahweh
but the new Yahweh which we cannot worship as we do not know him. Thus when
JC spoke, we did know whom we worshiped but afterwards we did not.
No?
Tell me, I know the name of the relationship between christians and G_d ...
it is called father.
And I know the relationship/name of the one sent from G_d called Jesus -
salvation.
And I know the relationship/name of the one sent by both the father and by
Jesus called the holy spirit.
What is the name and relationship you have to this triune G_d and why is
his name not exalted?
Fred Blogs, with no duty, no power given to him, no authority, no task, no
relationship, this unknown G_d you worship WITHOUT A NAME ... I will call
his name Fred Blogs.
There you are, you now have a name for your triune G_d.
Don't call upon his name as he has no power to save, no power to comfort,
no power to raise you ... but go and worship him.
The power of Fred Blogs ... well there is nobody more powerful than the
Father and the father is part of fred Blogs so fred Blogs is equally as
powerful as the father.
The father and the lesser power of your god who is sent, jesus ... does not
make fred Blogs more powerful or greater than the father.
Adding in the still lesser power of the twice sent holy spirit does not
make Fred Blogs more powerful than the father.
The bible speaks in terms of power, and in terms of duty.
You speak of "essence"
So I will leave you congratulating yourself that by the POWER OF YOUR
INTELLECT you have deduced the essence of G_d ... and the fact the bible
does not speak your language ... hey ... you boast in your intellectual
discovery and try to teach me to spit on the bible and the intent of the
authors of the bible to direct you into power and relationships ...
because you have an INTELLECTUAL concept which you claim cannot be wrong.
I will leave you worshiping a G_d with no name, no power, and no authority
... and return to the G_d I know.
You obviously do not worship my G_d, and I definitely do not worship your
intellectual masturbation god.
BTW - your mental masturbation intellectual idolatrous god is not the god
of the Nicene council.
In fact - they, (not me) label you an heretic.
Modalsim is forbidden
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
FYI - Philo was Jewish, not
a pagan.
Jim
2Ti 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
glenn
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>
>
>
> "glenn" <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote in message
> news:4b1ef0c0$0$52303$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
>
>
You are welcome, Dear Sister.
As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm the deity of Christ --
because the scripture clearly teaches the deity of Christ!
Therefore, every time Randy(R) accuses me of denying the deity of Christ
he again demonstrates that he is a liar and false accuser.
Therefore, when any trinitarian/theologian states that it is ONLY by the
acceptance of and belief in the doctrine of a triune god that we accept
and affirm the deity of Christ, they are a wrong.
Any Christian (ANY) can accept the deity of Christ by simply reading the
scripture.
Glenn
glenn
> On Wed, 12/09/09, at 5:15:22PM,
> glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
>> the pagan doctrine of a triune god.
>
>
> Are you calling Diana a "pagan"?
I'm not calling Diana anything, I'm calling you a liar, a false teacher,
and a false accuser.
>
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:04:40 GMT,
> In newsgroup "alt.christnet.christianlife",
> Article <s329h.30186$pq4....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>,
> Subject: For those who really really care
> "Diana" <NO@.NO.com> wrote:
> **************************************************************
> We believe in one God, existing eternally in three persons, identified
> as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and referred to as the Holy
> Trinity.
> **************************************************************
>
>
> Meanwhile, which Bible truth do you reject?
>
> 1) Jesus is God (the Being)
There is no scripture which states that "Jesus is God (the Being)"
By this (#1.) you are meaning the triune god, which false doctrine I reject.
As I have said countless times, I affirm that Jesus is God.
According to John, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as his Lord and his God.
[KJV] John 20:28
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Therefore, since the scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is God, then I
affirm and acknowledge that Jesus is God.
> 2) There is only one God.
Scripture clearly teaches that there are many gods.
Moses wrote
[KJV] Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Therefore stating and confirming that there are other gods.
Even Jesus himself stated that...
[KJV] John 10:34
"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
So when you use the term "god, God, or GOD," you need to define your terms.
I realize, of course, that a clear definition of terms is an anathema to
a sophist and false teacher such as yourself.
Knowing beforehand that you are NOT about to allow a clear definition of
the term "God", or acknowledge the many ways that term has been used in
the scripture, both old and new testaments, I will ask:
Jesus stated that He had been given all power...
Mat 28:18
"... All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
#1. Who gave Jesus all power?
#2. When did Jesus receive all Power?
#3. Is there any scripture which states that Jesus is Ruler? If so, when
did He begin to rule?
#4. If Jesus has ALL Power in Heaven and Earth, and if Jesus does Reign,
is there ANY scripture which states that He will lay down His Power and
cease His Reign.
Considering the above scriptural evidence:
A. Jesus did NOT have all power prior to being given all power.
B. Jesus received All Power from someone who DID HAVE All Power to give.
Together A & B indicate two distinctly separate individual beings, just
as the terms "Father" and "Son" indicate two distinctly separate
individual beings.
C. Since the Son of God, The Word, was with God the Father in the
beginning, and in fact created all things so that nothing which was
created without Him was created, then it is evident that He (Jesus, the
Son of God) received ALL Power from His Father BEFORE his act of Creation.
D. Yes, there is scripture which declares that Jesus is Absolute Ruler
of His Kingdom, Israel, and since He is absolute Ruler with ALL Power,
then He is God.
E. It is clearly stated that Jesus must reign until His enemies are
defeated, placed under His feet. This indicates two distinct and
separate individuals: 1, Jesus, and 2, HE who will place His enemies
under His feet.
F. It is clearly stated that Jesus, having destroyed the last enemy,
death, will submit His Kingdom to God the Father. This indicates two
distinct and separate individuals: 1, Jesus, and 2, HE to whom Jesus
will give His Kingdom.
Since the term "God" may indicate a kind of being, or a being who rules
with all Power and absolute authority, and since scripture declares that
Jesus does in fact rule with all power and absolute authority, He is God.
However, there is no scripture which states or declares that God the
Father and His Son are the same being, and therefore the false doctrine
of a triune god is a lie of Satan.
By teaching that false doctrine, and by falsifying scripture to teach
that false doctrine, and by lying and bearing false witness against
those who reject that false doctrine, you, Randy�, are a servant of Satan.
I am fully aware, Randy�, that attempting to show you the truth taught
in the Word of God is in fact throwing pearls to a swine.
May God have mercy on you while you still live,
before your soul is lost.
Glenn
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and
undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the
catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and
Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the
substance.
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another
of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of
the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit
uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and
the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And
yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated,
but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is
Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they
are not three almighties, but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And
yet they are not three gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit
Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each
Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by
the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is
of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy
Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but
proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons;
one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or
less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and
co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity
and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved is must think thus of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the
right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the
Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his
mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational
soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His
godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who,
although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one,
not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the
manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but
by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so
God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended
into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into
heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from
whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all
men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their
own works. And they that have done good shall go into life
everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he
cannot be saved.
Pastor Dave
<gamc...@spiritone.com> spake thusly:
> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm
> the deity of Christ -- because the scripture clearly
> teaches the deity of Christ!
No you don't. You claim He is "a lesser god".
That's you, worshipping "gods". And yet,
you have the gall to call the doctrine of
the Triune God "pagan"? Please! <chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
Don't put a question mark where God put a period.
pyotr filipivich
Wed, 09 Dec 2009 15:17:32 -0800 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
which one: "you (Glenn) proved"
"the deity of Men"
or "in scripture"?
Use as many screens as necessary...
pyotr
®
Pastor Dave <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:26:20 -0800, glenn
> <gamc...@spiritone.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm
>> the deity of Christ -- because the scripture clearly
>> teaches the deity of Christ!
>
> No you don't. You claim He is "a lesser god".
>
> That's you, worshipping "gods". And yet,
> you have the gall to call the doctrine of
> the Triune God "pagan"? Please!<chuckle>
>
Correct.
®
glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
> You are welcome, Dear Sister.
>
> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm the deity of Christ --
So you're claiming there are two Gods, or you're admitting that
you reject and call on all christians to reject the idea that
Jesus is that same God being as is the Father?
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 07:22:10 -0700,
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <4a37aa92$0$52310$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net>,
Glenn <gl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
**************************************************************
Therefore Jesus is not "God" in the same definition as is "GOD."
**************************************************************
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:17:23 -0700,
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article <4a380be4$0$86443$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net>,
Glenn <gl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
**************************************************************
Randy � wrote:
> Now, where is the moron who will contend Glenn means the same
> thing they do when he pretends to acknowledge Jesus as "God"?
I don't.
**************************************************************
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:53:02 -0800,
in article <12mhiak...@corp.supernews.com>,
oldwetdog <g.aed...@yahoo.com> wrote:
**********************************************************
>First, you mis-comprehend the meaning of the word "God."
>The Term "God" means "Ruler," not "being" (although it is
>sometimes used in that way.)
>
>GOD The Father is that Being which Fathered One Son.
>HE, GOD The Father, gave all power to His Only Son and sat Him on
>HIS Throne -- Therefore the Son is Ruler (God) of His Kingdom.
**********************************************************
Thus, by "God", you don't agree Jesus is God the Being, but only
a god (delegated ruler). In so doing you reject the deity of
Christ, which is blasphemy, and worship a god beside God, which
is idolatry.
I
> Randy Young � wrote:
>> Meanwhile, which Bible truth do you reject?
>> 1) Jesus is God (the Being)
>> 2) There is only one God.
>
> Number one of course.
Ditto.
1. Jesus never claimed to be the Exclusive Jewish One God who brought the
people of Israel out of Egypt.
2. God is not "THE Being". In fact God is not "A being" at all! All beings
are creations OF God and finite THINGS. God is the ground of ALL being -
that which makes being possible. Philosophers describe God as "Being
itself" (which is the same thing as the "ground of all being" / "that which
creates being"). This is why paul can say we "live and move and have our
BEING" in God (not the human Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 17:28).
> No no no. I forgot. JC was not part of the trinity until he died and then
> he became G_d
Yep! It is a description made by segments of the early church and NEVER
stated by the historic tiome / space Jesus of Nazareth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pre-Easter Jesus / Post-Easter Jesus
4 B.C.E. to 30 C.E. / 30 C.E. to present
Corporeal, human being of flesh and blood Spiritual / non-material
reality
Finite and mortal / Infinite, eternal
Human / Divine
A Jewish peasant / King of Kings and Lord of Lords
Figure of the past / Figure of the present
Jesus of Nazareth / Jesus Christ
Monotheistic Jew / Becomes the second person of the trinity, "God with a
human face"
Galilean Jew of the first century / "The Face of God" (metaphor based on
2 Cor. 4:6 Beholding the glory of God in the face of Christ)
The ONLY AUTHENTIC human time / space historic Jesus of Nazareth is the
Pre-Easter Jesus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--
glenn
> On Wed, 12/09/09, at 7:26:20PM,
> glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>
>> You are welcome, Dear Sister.
>>
>> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm the deity of Christ --
>
>
> So you're claiming there are two Gods
Scripture confirms that there are multiple gods:
Do you deny scripture?
Moses:
[KJV] Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
and,
Jesus:
[KJV] John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Define the term "God," and give scripture to support your definition.
No?
I din't think you could, or would.
Attempting to discuss truth with a demonstrated liar, such as you are,
is throwing pearls to swine.
So I don't offer this reply in hope that it may have any meaning to you,
Randy�, but that other readers may discover some benefit.
Again I say, the scripture clearly reveals the deity of Christ, and the
false doctrine of a triune god is NOT required to support Jesus claim of
Deity.
As Thomas proclaimed, so do I:
[KJV] John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
It is not Jesus as God or the Deity of Jesus I reject, Randy�, it is you
and the false doctrine of a triune god I reject.
Glenn
Mordecai
jwshe...@satx.rr.com wrote:
> The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>
Jim.
STOP CROSS POSTING!
Next - I like reality.
I can take a hammer and bash reality and it will stand.
I can take a pile driver and drop it on reality and it will stand.
I can light a bush fire and it will burn anything possible and reality will
stand.
I can destroy YOUR concept of Trinity without a blink of an eye because
YOUR concept of Trinity is wrong.
I have concepts of trinity I cannot destroy, that I can hit with a 25
pound sledge hammer and it will bounce ...
But yours is so frigging pathetic that I can destroy it easily.
ANYONE who has to resort to IMPLYING that because philo tried to reconcile
Judaism with greek thought that this implied that he spoke of trinity is
not defending truth but is shit scared of it and has to prop it up, and
keep it away from any test.
Here is a test for you.
G_d got himself a name in Egypt for when he brought out the children of
Israel, the nations round about heard and feared.
What deeds have been done in the name of your "trinity G_d?"
I am look looking at G_d through the lens of "Name of G_d" and I know there
are versions of Trinity which are in harmony with the council of nicea and
its rulings which can withstand this scrutiny.
Just because your concept of "trinity" cannot ... just means that your idea
on trinity is wrong.
Not that the doctrine of trinity is wrong.
When your doctrine can pass this test ... and I assure you that the
doctrine of trinity can pass this test ... then tell me about it.
Until then - do not confuse people with your false doctrine of trinity or
link it to the Nicene council and their doctrine of trinity.
Modalism is an official heresy.
®
glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
> � wrote:
>> On Wed, 12/09/09, at 7:26:20PM,
>> glenn <gamc...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You are welcome, Dear Sister.
>>>
>>> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm the deity of Christ --
>>
>>
>> So you're claiming there are two Gods
>
> Scripture confirms that there are multiple gods:
You didn't see the capital "G"?
> Do you deny scripture?
>
> Moses:
> [KJV] Exodus 20:3
> Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> and,
>
> Jesus:
> [KJV] John 10:34
> Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye
are gods?
>
>
>
Been through this with you already:
The KJV simply doesn't insert quotation marks around
the word "god", or "gods". In many other places, it directly
says "gods", "which are no gods". Thus, the meaning is that
they shall worship no other "gods" (which are no gods):
Do men make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!"
(Jeremiah 16:20 NIV)
And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods,
but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they
have destroyed them. (Isaiah 37:19 KJV)
Has a nation ever changed its gods? (Yet they are not gods at
all.) But my people have exchanged their Glory for worthless
idols. (Jeremiah 2:11 NIV)
"Why should I forgive you? Your children have forsaken me and
sworn by gods that are not gods. I supplied all their needs,
yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of
prostitutes. (Jeremiah 5:7 NIV)
> Define the term "God," and give scripture to support your definition.
>
> No?
> I din't [sic] think you could, or would.
Another lie. This has been answered repeatedly. John 1, for
instance, uses Theos both for Christ and God the Father, when it
says the word (Christ) was with God (theos), and was God (theos).
And please don't try to play your Jehovah's Witness' shell game,
by claiming the absence of the article means Jesus is "a" god,
because Greek shows the subject of the sentence not by word
order, but by the use of the article, and it shows the predicate
nominative by the absence of the article (see http://bit.ly/79r8GH).
The meaning of JHVH means the eternally self existing one. And
yes that does refer to Him as God the Being, because there is
only one eternally self-existing God, and "AM" notes a state of
being, not simply a title.
Joel 2:32 says whoever calls on the name of JHVH (LXX translates
it "Kurios") will be saved, and Romans 10:13 shows Christ as the
fulfillment of that verse, by the same term "Kurios".
Jesus said if you don't believe "I am", you will die in your
sins, then clarified what he meant, stating, "before Abraham was,
I am" (John 8). Then they picked up stones to kill him.
[]
> Again I say, the scripture clearly reveals the deity of Christ,
> and the false doctrine of a triune god is NOT required to
support Jesus claim of
> Deity.
You do not, by "deity", mean that Jesus is God the Being. You
mean He is a god (delegated ruler). Thus you worship what you
believe to be a god along side God (the Being), which is idolatry.
I don't.
**************************************************************
> As Thomas proclaimed, so do I:
> [KJV] John 20:28
> And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
But you claim that by "God", Thomas meant a god (delegated
ruler), not God the Being. Thus, you are not admitting Jesus is
the one God Being, but are simply calling Him your delegated ruler.
> It is not Jesus as God or the Deity of Jesus I reject, Randy�, it is you
> and the false doctrine of a triune god I reject.
No, you reject the idea that Jesus is the one God (Being), which
is what the people you argue against mean by "deity". Thus, you
are simply trying to hide behind a shell game of confusion.
In My Fathers House
[...]
> > Define the term "God," and give scripture to support your definition.
>
> > No?
> > I din't [sic] think you could, or would.
>
> Another lie.
Why do you call it a lie? I don't see where you define the term
"God".
> This has been answered repeatedly. John 1, for
> instance, uses Theos both for Christ and God the Father, when it
> says the word (Christ) was with God (theos), and was God (theos).
>
> And please don't try to play your Jehovah's Witness' shell game,
> by claiming the absence of the article means Jesus is "a" god,
> because Greek shows the subject of the sentence not by word
> order, but by the use of the article, and it shows the predicate
> nominative by the absence of the article (seehttp://bit.ly/79r8GH).
Where do we see you define the term "God" there?
> The meaning of JHVH means the eternally self existing one. And
> yes that does refer to Him as God the Being, because there is
> only one eternally self-existing God, and "AM" notes a state of
> being, not simply a title.
Okay you define the term (or name) "JHVH" using the term God. Where
do you define the term God?
> Joel 2:32 says whoever calls on the name of JHVH (LXX translates
> it "Kurios") will be saved, and Romans 10:13 shows Christ as the
> fulfillment of that verse, by the same term "Kurios".
>
> Jesus said if you don't believe "I am", you will die in your
> sins, then clarified what he meant, stating, "before Abraham was,
> I am" (John 8). Then they picked up stones to kill him.
Where do you define the term God?
> > Again I say, the scripture clearly reveals the deity of Christ,
>
> > and the false doctrine of a triune god is NOT required to
> support Jesus claim of
> > Deity.
>
> You do not, by "deity", mean that Jesus is God the Being. You
> mean He is a god (delegated ruler). Thus you worship what you
> believe to be a god along side God (the Being), which is idolatry.
Uh do you ever define the term God? You said it was a lie when Glenn
said he thought you wouldn't and couldn't. Yet you don't.
>[...]
I don't see it any any of this either. Correct me if I missed it.
®
In My Fathers House <hso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 9, 10:55 pm, �<pulpitf...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>>> > > Define the term "God," and give scripture to support your definition.
>> >
>>> > > No?
>>> > > I din't [sic] think you could, or would.
>> >
>> > Another lie.
> Why do you call it a lie? I don't see where you define the term
> "God".
[]
> Uh do you ever define the term God? You said it was a lie when Glenn
> said he thought you wouldn't and couldn't. Yet you don't.
You weren't aware of the 391 instances where the "God" of
believers is identified and defined as JHVH, or where JHVH said
there was no other god beside Him, or you weren't aware that fact
has been presented to Glenn repeatedly already?
The definition of JHVH _IS_ the definition of the one God whom
believers worship, and I've noted that repeatedly in previous
discussions with Glenn.
See what happens when you don't quote every past article to
support your claims? House uses it as a platform for denial.
Then if you do quote it, he says you are insane and spamming.
1) The God of believers identifies and defines Himself as JHVH:
(NASB) Gen_27:20; Exo_6:7; Exo_8:28; Exo_10:8; Exo_10:16;
Exo_10:17; Exo_15:26; Exo_16:12; Exo_20:2; Exo_20:5; Exo_20:7;
Exo_20:10; Exo_20:12; Exo_23:19; Exo_23:25; Exo_34:24; Exo_34:26;
Lev_11:44; Lev_18:2; Lev_18:4; Lev_18:30; Lev_19:2; Lev_19:3;
Lev_19:4; Lev_19:10; Lev_19:25; Lev_19:31; Lev_19:34; Lev_19:36;
Lev_20:7; Lev_20:24; Lev_23:22; Lev_23:28; Lev_23:40; Lev_23:43;
Lev_24:22; Lev_25:17; Lev_25:38; Lev_25:55; Lev_26:1; Lev_26:13;
Num_10:9; Num_10:10; Num_15:41; Deu_1:10; Deu_1:21; Deu_1:26;
Deu_1:30; Deu_1:31; Deu_1:32; Deu_2:7; Deu_2:30; Deu_3:18;
Deu_3:20; Deu_3:21; Deu_3:22; Deu_4:2; Deu_4:3; Deu_4:4;
Deu_4:10; Deu_4:19; Deu_4:21; Deu_4:23; Deu_4:24; Deu_4:25;
Deu_4:29; Deu_4:30; Deu_4:31; Deu_4:34; Deu_4:40; Deu_5:6;
Deu_5:9; Deu_5:11; Deu_5:12; Deu_5:14; Deu_5:15; Deu_5:16;
Deu_5:32; Deu_5:33; Deu_6:1; Deu_6:2; Deu_6:5; Deu_6:10;
Deu_6:13; Deu_6:15; Deu_6:16; Deu_6:17; Deu_7:1; Deu_7:2;
Deu_7:6; Deu_7:9; Deu_7:12; Deu_7:16; Deu_7:18; Deu_7:19;
Deu_7:20; Deu_7:21; Deu_7:22; Deu_7:23; Deu_7:25; Deu_8:2;
Deu_8:5; Deu_8:6; Deu_8:7; Deu_8:10; Deu_8:11; Deu_8:14;
Deu_8:18; Deu_8:19; Deu_8:20; Deu_9:3; Deu_9:4; Deu_9:5; Deu_9:6;
Deu_9:7; Deu_9:16; Deu_9:23; Deu_10:9; Deu_10:12; Deu_10:14;
Deu_10:17; Deu_10:20; Deu_10:22; Deu_11:1; Deu_11:2; Deu_11:12;
Deu_11:13; Deu_11:22; Deu_11:25; Deu_11:27; Deu_11:28; Deu_11:29;
Deu_11:31; Deu_12:4; Deu_12:5; Deu_12:7; Deu_12:9; Deu_12:10;
Deu_12:11; Deu_12:12; Deu_12:15; Deu_12:18; Deu_12:20; Deu_12:21;
Deu_12:27; Deu_12:28; Deu_12:29; Deu_12:31; Deu_13:3; Deu_13:4;
Deu_13:5; Deu_13:10; Deu_13:12; Deu_13:16; Deu_13:18; Deu_14:1;
Deu_14:2; Deu_14:21; Deu_14:23; Deu_14:24; Deu_14:25; Deu_14:26;
Deu_14:29; Deu_15:4; Deu_15:5; Deu_15:6; Deu_15:7; Deu_15:10;
Deu_15:14; Deu_15:15; Deu_15:18; Deu_15:19; Deu_15:20; Deu_15:21;
Deu_16:1; Deu_16:2; Deu_16:5; Deu_16:6; Deu_16:7; Deu_16:8;
Deu_16:10; Deu_16:11; Deu_16:15; Deu_16:16; Deu_16:17; Deu_16:18;
Deu_16:20; Deu_16:21; Deu_16:22; Deu_17:1; Deu_17:2; Deu_17:8;
Deu_17:12; Deu_17:14; Deu_17:15; Deu_18:5; Deu_18:9; Deu_18:12;
Deu_18:13; Deu_18:14; Deu_18:15; Deu_18:16; Deu_19:1; Deu_19:2;
Deu_19:3; Deu_19:8; Deu_19:9; Deu_19:10; Deu_19:14; Deu_20:1;
Deu_20:4; Deu_20:13; Deu_20:14; Deu_20:16; Deu_20:17; Deu_20:18;
Deu_21:1; Deu_21:5; Deu_21:10; Deu_21:23; Deu_22:5; Deu_23:5;
Deu_23:14; Deu_23:18; Deu_23:20; Deu_23:21; Deu_23:23; Deu_24:4;
Deu_24:9; Deu_24:13; Deu_24:18; Deu_24:19; Deu_25:15; Deu_25:16;
Deu_25:19; Deu_26:1; Deu_26:2; Deu_26:4; Deu_26:5; Deu_26:10;
Deu_26:11; Deu_26:13; Deu_26:16; Deu_26:19; Deu_27:2; Deu_27:3;
Deu_27:5; Deu_27:6; Deu_27:7; Deu_27:9; Deu_27:10; Deu_28:1;
Deu_28:2; Deu_28:8; Deu_28:9; Deu_28:13; Deu_28:15; Deu_28:45;
Deu_28:47; Deu_28:52; Deu_28:53; Deu_28:58; Deu_28:62; Deu_29:6;
Deu_29:10; Deu_29:12; Deu_30:1; Deu_30:2; Deu_30:3; Deu_30:4;
Deu_30:5; Deu_30:6; Deu_30:7; Deu_30:9; Deu_30:10; Deu_30:16;
Deu_30:20; Deu_31:3; Deu_31:6; Deu_31:11; Deu_31:12; Deu_31:13;
Deu_31:26; Jos_1:9; Jos_1:11; Jos_1:13; Jos_1:15; Jos_1:17;
Jos_2:11; Jos_3:3; Jos_3:9; Jos_4:5; Jos_4:23; Jos_4:24; Jos_8:7;
Jos_9:9; Jos_9:24; Jos_10:19; Jos_22:3; Jos_22:4; Jos_22:5;
Jos_23:3; Jos_23:5; Jos_23:8; Jos_23:10; Jos_23:11; Jos_23:13;
Jos_23:14; Jos_23:15; Jos_23:16; Jdg_6:10; Jdg_6:26; 1Sa_12:12;
1Sa_12:14; 1Sa_12:19; 1Sa_13:13; 1Sa_15:15; 1Sa_15:21; 1Sa_15:30;
1Sa_25:29; 2Sa_14:11; 2Sa_14:17; 2Sa_18:28; 2Sa_24:3; 2Sa_24:23;
1Ki_1:17; 1Ki_2:3; 1Ki_10:9; 1Ki_13:6; 1Ki_13:21; 1Ki_17:12;
1Ki_18:10; 2Ki_17:39; 2Ki_19:4; 2Ki_23:21; 1Ch_11:2; 1Ch_22:11;
1Ch_22:12; 1Ch_22:18; 1Ch_22:19; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:20; 2Ch_9:8;
2Ch_16:7; 2Ch_20:20; 2Ch_28:10; 2Ch_30:8; 2Ch_30:9; 2Ch_35:3;
Neh_8:9; Neh_9:5; Psa_76:11; Isa_7:11; Isa_37:4; Isa_41:13;
Isa_43:3; Isa_48:17; Isa_51:15; Isa_55:5; Isa_60:9; Jer_2:17;
Jer_2:19; Jer_3:13; Jer_13:16; Jer_26:13; Jer_40:2; Jer_42:2;
Jer_42:3; Jer_42:4; Jer_42:5; Jer_42:13; Jer_42:20; Jer_42:21;
Eze_20:5; Eze_20:7; Eze_20:19; Eze_20:20; Hos_12:9; Hos_13:4;
Hos_14:1; Joe_1:14; Joe_2:13; Joe_2:14; Joe_2:23; Joe_2:26;
Joe_2:27; Joe_3:17; Amo_9:15; Mic_7:10; Zep_3:17; Zec_6:15;
2) JHVH says there is no other god beside Him:
(Isaiah 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no
saviour.
(Isaiah 44:8) Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told
thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my
witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know
not any.
(Isaiah 45:5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no
God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(Isaiah 45:6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and
from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and
there is none else.
(Isaiah 45:21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take
counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who
hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no
God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none
beside me.
(Isaiah 47:8) Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to
pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart,
I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow,
neither shall I know the loss of children:
(Isaiah 47:10) For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou
hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath
perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none
else beside me.
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land
of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no
other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3).
Definition of God is JHVH, is eternally self existing one. Get it?
Now, since JHVH is identified as the eternally self existing God
of believers, and says there is no other god beside Him, why does
Glenn claim to worship both the Father and Son as "God", while
denying they are the same being?
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>hold the catholic faith.
What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
commanded by Peter [who is supposed to be their venerated teacher] thus they
are still languishing in their sins because they stupidly sprinkle water on
unbelieving babies who haven't a clue who Christ is, let alone believe in
him, and the Catholic blaspheming 'fathers' forbid them being baptised even
when they finally do believe many years later.
If you don't want the dead-cert-short-cut to "hell" don't dare latch-on to
the unwashed RCC.
Even it's appalling history both past and present shows it's murderous
Inquisition fruits for all to see and marvel at.
Why...many of it's blaspheming, supposed Holy Spirit guided 'fathers' are
now languishing is varies jails for buggery or the rape of the children of
their diminishing flocks.
As Jesus stated....."By their fruits [actions and works] shall ye know
them."
__
Veff...
"4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my
people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered
her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her
double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her
double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so
much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen,
and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come
in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned
with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." Rev 18:3-8 (KJV)
I
> I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land
> of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no
> other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3).
...
> why does Glenn claim to worship both the Father and Son as "God", while
> denying they are the same being?
The human historic time / space Jesus of Nazareth did NOT bring the people
of Israel out of Egypt and so CANNOT be the Exclusive One God Yahweh who
brought the people of Israel out of Egypt. You've even said so above. ;-)
"Use your God-given brain and don't be ignorant like Randy Young �" - Mark
17:4 (MTV)
Pastor Dave
<gamc...@spiritone.com> spake thusly:
>>> As you can easily see, I DO believe and affirm
>>> the deity of Christ --
>>
>> So you're claiming there are two Gods
>
> Scripture confirms that there are multiple gods:
>
> Do you deny scripture?
>
> Moses:
> [KJV] Exodus 20:3
> Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
This is why I have no respect for you. You're
more than willing to twist Scripture to suit your
sick purpose!
The truth is, the Bible says that there aren't
actually any other gods.
"Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone
at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia,
this Paul hath persuaded and turned away
much people, saying that they be no gods,
which are made with hands." - Acts 19:26
"And the Lord shall scatter you among the
nations, and ye shall be left few in number
among the heathen, whither the Lord shall
lead you. And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands, wood and stone,
which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor
smell." - Deuteronomy 4:27-28
These "other gods" are not real, so when
you try to twist Scripture to claim that the
Bible says that there are other gods, so it's
okay to call Jesus "another god", comparing
Him to them, which is what you just did,
then you are saying that Jesus isn't real.
> It is not Jesus as God or the Deity of Jesus
> I reject
Yes it is, or you wouldn't be playing this game
with words in the Scriptures.
> it is... the false doctrine of a triune god I reject.
Again, you call Jesus "a lesser god" and you just
compared Him to the false gods made of wood
and stone, that do not see, nor hear, nor eat,
nor smell.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Fear does not have any special power unless you
empower it by submitting to it." - Les Brown
duke
<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>>hold the catholic faith.
>
>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
>Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
>baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
>commanded by Peter [who is supposed to be their venerated teacher] thus they
>are still languishing in their sins because they stupidly sprinkle water on
>unbelieving babies who haven't a clue who Christ is, let alone believe in
>him, and the Catholic blaspheming 'fathers' forbid them being baptised even
>when they finally do believe many years later.
Please show where baptism is ONLY TO BE CONFERRED on professed "believers". Such
actions relegate dead youth to less than full heaven due to the presence of the
original sin nature.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
®
arah
There are a number of alarming verses in the Bible that pass through
the polytheist trinitarian christians without being noticed or
pondered upon. Matthew 16:39 above raises a very serious red flag
about Jesus being our so-called "Creator" and the whole lie of the
polytheist trinity paganism religion. Jesus in the verse openly
admitted that he basically had no Divine Will -- that he is nothing
without GOD Almighty -- that he is just a creation from GOD Almighty.
This is by the way was not the first time Jesus openly admits this.
There are several verses and situations where Jesus refuted the
polytheist trinity pagan lie:
1- Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me
good? No one is good but God alone.”
2- John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"
3- John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"
4- Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not
even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
5- Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said
to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:
Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from
his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by
what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
By the way, the Spirit of GOD Almighty came upon many in the Bible
before and after Jesus.
6- Also, the "God" (hotheos) title that was given to Jesus was also
given to many others before him and after him in the Bible.
Ironically, even satan was called "hotheos" (God) in the New
Testament. The only Unique Attribute for GOD Almighty that wasn't
given to anyone else beside GOD Almighty is "Yahweh", which means "The
Eternal". Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/godtitle.htm
to see the full proofs.
2- Jesus' repetitive Prayers contradicted his very own teachings:
Let us look at the following from the Bible:
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and
prayed....(From the NIV Bible, Matthew 16:39)"
"So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time,
saying the same thing. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:44)"
"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent
the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the
streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They
have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet,
and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in
secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for
they think that they shall be HEARD FOR THEIR MUCH SPEAKING. Be not ye
therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have
need of, before ye ask him. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)"
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane,
and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he
began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and
prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could
you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not
possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your
will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their
eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third
time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
Jesus said "no vain repetitions" in Prayers. But how many times did
Jesus pray over the same thing in such a small period of time? 3
times in Matthew 26:36-44, and endlessly in Luke 6:12. Let us again
look at the following verse:
"One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent
the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"
When Jesus prayed ENDLESSLY all night long in Luke 6:12, did he not
repeat his prayers? His main focus was on GOD Almighty saving him
from the crucifixion. Jesus' prayers all night long, which obviously
were far more than just 3 times, were repetition after repetition
after repetition, compromising his very own commands about not doing
"vain repetitions."
It is really interesting that Jesus decided to bow down to Allah
Almighty. This rare and not so usual practice in Christianity is
something we Muslims do 5 times every single day. What Jesus did
during his most desperate times in trying to glorify GOD Almighty in
the best possible way he can to grab GOD Almighty's attention and to
show Him that he (Jesus) is giving Him (GOD) everything he can and is
bringing himself in the lowest possible humility before Him, we
Muslims simply do it 5 times every day without being desperate to
glorify GOD Almighty.
Very Important Note: Practicing Muslims do ask GOD Almighty in
Prayer when their faces are on the ground during the 5-daily prayers.
I was taught that this is the best position to ask Allah Almighty in.
My point is that what Jesus did during his most desperate times, we
Muslims do it every single day! It seems to me that any practicing
Muslim glorifies GOD far better than what Jesus in the Bible did and
will ever do.
The incident of Jesus bowing to GOD Almighty in worship is often
ignored by Trinitarian Christians. I am surprised that Trinitarian
Christians don't even have any problem with the seriousness of this
incident. Let us look at few points here:
1- When Jesus bowed down to GOD Almighty only during his desperate
times and not in any other time, this tells us that Jesus did not
worship GOD Almighty properly during his normal times, because he
immediately compromised the normal way that he taught his followers:
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou
hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy
Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (From the KJV
Bible, Matthew 6:5-8)"
2- Jesus did not pray in secret to GOD Almighty. He prayed in a
totally different and better way. Jesus contradicted his very own
commands.
3- Jesus' incident was simply telling GOD: GOD, I will not sit in my
room and pray to you in secret as I commanded my followers. I will do
even more to you. I will bow down to you and worship you in the
maximum humility, and I pray that you save me from the pain that I am
about to go through. This is my extra bonus prayer to you GOD!
Please save me!!
Of course this unclassy and hypocritical standard that lacks dignity
and respect to GOD Almighty by all means by the Jesus of the man-
altered and corrupted bible is not accepted in Islam. You either pray
to GOD Almighty consistently or you don't. But to treat GOD Almighty
like this is frankly in my opinion blasphemous, because you're
attempting to act smart with GOD Almighty and not be a true Servant.
In other words, once you get your thing out of Him, then you won't
"degrade yourself" and bow down to Him again?
That's blasphemy!!
3- Jesus begged GOD Almighty for Mercy:
Let's again go back to Matthew 16:39:
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane,
and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he
began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and
prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could
you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not
possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your
will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their
eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third
time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
Again, Very Important Note: The liars from the English translators
should've wrote "...Yet not as I WISH, but as you WILL...". This
would've been the most proper and accurate translation by the
polytheist trinitarian pagans who are dying to prove the lie about
Jesus being the Creator of the Universe by any cost, even through
lying and deceiving.
4- (as mentioned above but with different details) Jesus bowed down
to GOD Almighty only once during his most desperate times! This is
hypocrisy by the way:
Let's again go back to Matthew 16:39:
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane,
and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he
began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND
PRAYED, "My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could
you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not
possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your
will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their
eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third
time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
We Muslims prostrated with our faces down to the ground to GOD
Almighty at least a total of 17 times in the 5-daily sets of Prayers.
We do it while we're not desperate to seek GOD Almighty's Mercy.
Jesus on the other hand so hypocritically compromised again his
"prayer rules" and he eventually found the BEST WAY to worship GOD
Almighty! He found it during his most desperate times. No Prayer is
better than putting your face down to the ground before THE LORD
ALMIGHTY, your Creator, and make your wishes and Prayers to Him while
your face is humbled down to the ground before HIM.
The fact that Jesus compromised even his rules of Praying and
prostrated to GOD Almighty like we Muslims do ONLY PROVES that the
Islamic way of Praying is indisputably THE BEST WAY, even according to
Jesus himself (not that I as a Muslim require his approval)!!
It also proves beyond the shadow of the doubt that Jesus is NOT my
Creator, because my Creator is THE ALMIGHTY GOD who doesn't beg and
cry and pray to anyone.
5- GOD Almighty Created pain and death, and Jesus feared them!
Let's again go back to Matthew 26:36-44:
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane,
and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he
began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the
point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND
PRAYED, "My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me.
Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could
you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The
spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not
possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your
will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their
eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third
time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
The very fact that Jesus begged GOD Almighty for Mercy because he
feared the pain and death of the crucifixion proves that Jesus FEARED
PAIN AND DEATH! Yet, the Creator of this Universe, GOD Almighty, did
also Create pain and death. It doesn't make any sense that GOD would
fear the pain and death that He Created. This again proves that Jesus
is not the Creator of the Universe.
Don't forget also that according to the Old Testament, Jesus was
supposed to have the Spirit of Fear (Fearing GOD Almighty) in him:
Isaiah 11:1-3
"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a
Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of
wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the
LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by
what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"
I don't know about your god, but my GOD Almighty doesn't fear
anything!
6- The GOD of the O.T. Punishes to death those who cursed HIS HOLY
NAME. How could Jesus escape to Egypt from King Herod and still be
this Mighty and Arrogant GOD?
If Jesus is our Creator as the polytheist trinitarian pagans believe,
then how could he run away from King Herod to Egypt, while GOD
Almighty in the Old Testament Punishes to death those who even curse
his Holy Name?
How could GOD be so Mighty and Arrogant in the Old Testament, and yet
be a total pussy who runs away from a creation of His in the New
Testament?
Let us look at what the Bible says:
Leviticus 24
15 Say to the Israelites: 'If anyone curses his God, he will be held
responsible;
16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death.
The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born,
when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
Matthew 2
13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a
dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child (Jesus) and his mother
(Mary) and ESCAPE to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is
going to search for the child to kill him."
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and
left for Egypt,
.........
19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to
Joseph in Egypt
20 and said, "Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land
of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child's life are
dead."
There are few points to notice here:
1- Jesus can not be the Arrogant and Sovereign GOD Almighty who
Punishes to death those who Curse His Holy Name, because he escaped to
Egypt from the fear of getting killed. Even if GOD was a "baby", that
still should not take away even an atom from His Will, Might, Glory,
Sovereignty and Holiness. Jesus' escape certainly erases all of that
and makes GOD a weak, absolutely helpless and coward -- that is
assuming that the polytheist trinity pagan LIE is true, which it
isn't.
2- For those Roman Catholic pagans who worship Mary, Mary too can not
be a GODDESS because she too escaped to Egypt. She can't be the wife
of GOD Almighty. And GOD Almighty does not have wives anyway:
"To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can
He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He
hath full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 6:101)"
Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
(The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"
"They say: 'God hath begotten a son' :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him
belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders
worship to Him. (The Noble Quran, 2:116)"
7- In original Hebrew, "son of GOD" literally means "SERVANT OF
GOD". See proofs:
Please visit:
"Son of God" literally means "Servant of God" in Hebrew. Bible agrees
with Islam, not with pagan trinity and today's wrong and twisted
translations of "Son of God".
The Bible directly claims that ANY "Son of GOD" is a "God"!
(Refutation to Jesus' being God meaning that he is GOD Almighty).
The definition of "Son of God" in Islam.
Son of GOD: Some Muslims' Misconception.
"Son of Man" does not mean "GOD" or "Son of GOD"
8- What about the authority in Heaven and Earth that was given to
Jesus?
Let us look at what the Bible says:
Matthew 28
17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Luke 4
5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant
all the kingdoms of the world.
6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and
splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I
want to.
7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours."
Luke 10
18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and
to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.
20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice
that your names are written in heaven."
Few points to notice:
1- In Matthew 28:17, it is important to know that the polytheist
trinitarian pagan liars of the English translation purposely put
"worshiped him" to make Jesus appear to be the GOD of the Universe.
The correct translation is "kneeled to him". The reason I say this
is because people in the Bible are kneeled to and even prostrated to:
1 Samuel 24
7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to
attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way.
8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the
king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated
himself with his face to the ground.
9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on
harming you'?
Notice how David called Saul "my lord". While this is elaborated on
much greatly in this article, but I just find it quite ridiculous that
trinitarian Christians use "Jesus is lord" as a desperate proof for
their lies about Jesus being our so-called "Creator".
Also, when David prostrated his face down to the ground to Saul, was
he worshiping Saul as if Saul was GOD Almighty?
Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/worship_jesus.htm for
more details and refutations.
2- In Luke 4:5-6, even satan had been given "power" and "authority".
3- In Luke 10:18-20, we again see that satan had been given a great
authority, and Jesus gave the authority that was given to him to his
disciples so they can over come the evil of satan.
4- Since Jesus was GIVEN the "authority" and "power", then this
obviously means that GOD Almighty Gave it to him. It also means that
Jesus DID NOT OWN this authority and power. He had to wait for it to
be GIVEN to him from GOD Almighty.
5- The speech in Matthew 28:17-19 is a figurative one. I've written
a detailed article showing many examples of obvious figurative and
metaphoric speech in the Bible.
9- None of Jesus' Miracles were unique in the Bible:
Many trinitarians falsely claim that since Jesus performed awesome
miracles then he must be the Creator of the Universe. What they
apparently don't know is that none of Jesus' miracles were unique!
Prophets in the Old Testament before Jesus did raise the dead, cure
the blind, heal leprosy, etc...
No Prophet could perform any type of Miracle without the Permission
and Will of Allah Almighty:
"It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by
inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger
to reveal, with God's permission, what God wills: for He is Most High,
Most Wise. (The Noble Quran, 42:51)"
Please visit: Jesus' Miracles were not unique in the Bible.
By the way, "Allah" was GOD Almighty's original Name in the Bible
according to the Hebrew and Aramaic sources.
10- Conclusion:
After reading all of this, do you still have the slightest doubt that
Jesus is only a creation of GOD Almighty and a great Prophet? Do you
still believe in the biggest lie satan ever invented, which is the
polytheist trinity paganism?
Embrace Islam, the True and Divine Religion of GOD Almighty, and you
will be saved! Islam is very simple and requires no mediators
between you and your Creator. If you believe in the Absolute One and
Living GOD Almighty and associate no partners (gods, idols, human,
etc...) with Him, then you have become a Muslim. You do not need to
believe in satan's invented LIES about believing in a mediator (Jesus
or anyone else) to be between you and your Creator. You have been
given the irrevocable Divine Right to have a straight and direct
relationship with GOD Almighty:
"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them):
I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let
them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That
they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"
"It was We Who Created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul
makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein. (The
Noble Quran, 50:16)"
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He
begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
(The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"
"Then Praise be to Allah, Lord of the heavens and Lord of the earth-
Lord and Cherisher of all the worlds! To Him be Glory throughout the
heavens and the earth: and He is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom!.
(The Noble Quran, 45:36-37)"
"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to
common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah;
that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among
ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn
back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to
Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
As you've also seen above, the Biblical "Son of God" is only an
invented LIE about GOD Almighty having children, Divine Children. In
the original Hebrew, "son of GOD" literally means "Servant of GOD".
GOD Almighty Has no sons and no partners. Everything beside Him is a
creation.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm
On Dec 10, 4:31 pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
::: Jesus is LORD :::
blasphemous nonsense now. Will that ever stop, so the Christians can do
their job again?
--
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://the-beauty-of-the-psalms.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://bible-prophecy-and-revelation.blogspot.com/
glenn gamc...@spiritone.com wrote in
4b209152$0$86439$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net
®
::: Jesus is LORD ::: <jesus-...@lycos.com> wrote:
> For six years sectarian Glenn has been trashing the group with his
> blasphemous nonsense now. Will that ever stop, so the Christians can do
> their job again?
Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
(Revelation 20).
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
Jim
Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth
all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.
Mordecai
"jwshe...@satx.rr.com" wrote:
> Ex 3:14 - And God said unto Moses,
> I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
> Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
> I AM hath sent me unto you.
>
> Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them,
> Verily, verily, I say unto you,
> Before Abraham was, I am.
>
Denies JC is G_d.
>
> Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him,
> My Lord and my God.
Umm ... to shove this one down your throat ... Thomas spoke in either
Hebrew or Aramaic. What words did he use in Hebrew or Aramaic which were
translated into the Greek and English as you have declared.
You will work out this is a false translation REAL quick.
Plus context, plus psychology.
Three witnesses.
He probably said "MY L_rd and master" which fits hebrew, the greek, the
situation and the psychology of the Jews.
>
>
> Jim
>
> Col 2:9 - For in him dwelleth
> all the fulness of the Godhead
> bodily.
Do you know what Godhead means in the Jewish context?
So far ... batting zero.
Zadok
<jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message ...
> Ex 3:14 - And God said unto Moses,
> I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
> Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
> I AM hath sent me unto you.
>
>
> Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them,
> Verily, verily, I say unto you,
> Before Abraham was, I am.
And in Green Eggs and Ham, Sam I am is the hero!!
> Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him,
> My Lord and my God.
Jesus called himself the SON OF MAN!!
Numbers 23: 19 -
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should
change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not
fulfill?
WHAT?? God is not a SON OF MAN!!!
Mark 13: 32 - The verse that trinity people hate -
32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor
the Son, but only the Father.
What Jesus did not know what God knows??
Mark 13: 32 proves that Jesus and God are not one!!
Smile.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
Mark 13: 32 - The verse that trinity people hate -
32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
heaven, nor
the Son, but only the Father.
What Jesus did not know what God knows??
Mark 13: 32 proves that Jesus and God are not one!!
If you are going to oppose a doctrine,
at least know what it is.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the
right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the
Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his
mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational
soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His
godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who,
although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one,
not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the
manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but
by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so
God and man is one Christ;
http://www.kencollins.com/why-09.htm
Jim
The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
Mystery of the Trinity.
Zadok
>
> Mark 13: 32 - The verse that trinity people hate -
>
> 32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in
> heaven, nor
> the Son, but only the Father.
> What Jesus did not know what God knows??
>
> Mark 13: 32 proves that Jesus and God are not one!!
>
> If you are going to oppose a doctrine,
> at least know what it is.
>
>
>
>
> Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also
> believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the
> right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus
> Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the
> Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his
> mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational
> soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His
> godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who,
> although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one,
> not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the
> manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but
> by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so
> God and man is one Christ;
What a cute little flight of fancy!!
> The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
>
> It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
> but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
>
> It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
>
> The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
> Mystery of the Trinity.
What a cute little flight of fancy!!
I
> Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that working for
Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
--
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so
unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi
glenn
Thanks for this perfect example of a liar and false accuser being in
agreement with a liar and false accuser!
LuckyLuke
"I" <I@backagain00000000002> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:4b215a14$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Randy Young "�" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
>
>
> The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
> devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that working for
> Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
That's a good question...
r m
> "I" <I@backagain00000000002> ha scritto nel messaggionews:4b215a14$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
>
> >> Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
>
> > The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
> > devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that working for
> > Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
>
> That's a good question...
The ng was exorcised some years ago, where Satan and his minions were
ordered away.
At one time the injunction Mat 10:8 was said to be obeyed " heal the
sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons".
I can't explain why demonic activity is still prevalent. Maybe more
exorcism is needed.
Cheers.
I
>> > The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
>> > devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that
>>> working for Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
>> That's a good question...
>
> The ng was exorcised some years ago, where Satan and his minions
> were ordered away.
>
> At one time the injunction Mat 10:8 was said to be obeyed " heal the
> sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons".
>
> I can't explain why demonic activity is still prevalent. Maybe more
> exorcism is needed.
Matthew 17:18-21 may have to be "claimed as a promise". Obviously this type
of demon can only be removed by prayer and fasting.
I suggest that Randy Young � and Vera Six try:
1. PRAYER of forgiveness.
2. FASTING from posting anything on alt.christnet.christianlife
If they try that for the next decade it should work.
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe. Really! Try to believe even if
it's bloody stupid and irrational. Why? Because I said so, that's why!
Don't ask questions. Just believe." - Mark 17: 1- 3 (MTV)
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
news:17r1i5ddoci6u7c73...@4ax.com...
Please show me first in the NT, where unbelievers were commanded to be
baptised.....
Thanks.
__
Veff...
<*{{{{><
r m
I reasoned the other day that having to break-fast in the morning, I
must have been fasting beforehand. I do it every day. :-)
Cheers.
glenn
Demonic activity is prevalent because Witch Vera is still here.
Demonic activity is ongoing because certain individuals, such as
Randy(r), Ike and "Pastor" Dave continue to falsify Gods Word to teach
and defend false doctrine and attack -- with lies and false accusations
-- any and all who do not submit to their "leadership."
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
Households were baptised. As a gnostic so-called
you keep confusing belief with understanding. The
children of believing parents has faith in the milk and
faith being given them.
Jim
Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
even from his mother's womb.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
faith being given them.
Jim
Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
even from his mother's womb.
Ac 10:47 - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be
baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
pyotr filipivich
<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Thu, 10 Dec 2009
08:31:13 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>>hold the catholic faith.
>
>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
>Christian teaching,
Bzzzt, thank you for playing, and please accept a copy of the home
game as you leave the stage.
Because it is apparent, you don't know what you are talking about.
Specifically, that the Athanasian Creed was written in the fourth
century (that's the 300's). Centuries before the Great Schism, and
long before the western Church became The Roman Church. Further, the
"Catholic" faith to which he refers was not, and is not, the 'modern'
(anything after the 11th Century) Roman variation, but is the whole
totality of the Faith as taught by the Apostles to Faithful Men, who
taught it to other Faithful men, generation after generation.
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
It has been said, however that it is neither Athanasian nor a Creed.
It is purely Western, was originally composed in Latin, and included the
filioque.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
duke
<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Matthew 28:16-20 (New International Version)
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had
told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has
been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing
them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you
always, to the very end of the age."
Footnotes:
a.Matthew 28:19 Or into; see Acts 8:16; 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Cor. 1:13; 10:2 and
Gal. 3:27.
duke
>
>
>There are a number of alarming verses in the Bible that pass through
>the polytheist trinitarian christians without being noticed or
>pondered upon. Matthew 16:39 above raises a very serious red flag
>about Jesus being our so-called "Creator" and the whole lie of the
>polytheist trinity paganism religion. Jesus in the verse openly
>admitted that he basically had no Divine Will -- that he is nothing
>without GOD Almighty -- that he is just a creation from GOD Almighty.
Jesus is God himself become man, fully man. Everything he did was as a man,
never using his divine will.
duke
>Jesus called himself the SON OF MAN!!
His human mother, Mary
duke
>
><jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message ...
>> Ex 3:14 - And God said unto Moses,
>> I AM THAT I AM: and he said,
>> Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel,
>> I AM hath sent me unto you.
>>
>>
>> Joh 8:58 - Jesus said unto them,
>> Verily, verily, I say unto you,
>> Before Abraham was, I am.
>
>And in Green Eggs and Ham, Sam I am is the hero!!
>
>> Joh 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him,
>> My Lord and my God.
>
>Jesus called himself the SON OF MAN!!
His mother Mary was fully human.
duke
>What a cute little flight of fancy!!
>What a cute little flight of fancy!!
You wearing your dress today, z?
Zadok
YOU FOOL!! You don't even have the ability to read what was posted.
You were asked to show in the bible, where an unbeliever was ever baptised,
and you idiot, you can't do it.
You know why Idiot??
You had to believe before you could be baptised!!
Smile.
Pastor Dave
<gamc...@spiritone.com> spake thusly:
And yet, all we have is YOU accusing people of that.
Hmmm... I wonder what that could make you?
<chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
- Vulcan saying
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
news:7mk3i5l6quoi288d5...@4ax.com...
> Let the Record show that "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
> <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Thu, 10 Dec 2009
> 08:31:13 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>>>hold the catholic faith.
>>
>>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
>>Christian teaching,
>
> Bzzzt, thank you for playing, and please accept a copy of the home
> game as you leave the stage.
>
> Because it is apparent, you don't know what you are talking about.
I told you what I was talking about...."the Catholic faith is complete
Anathema to 1st Century
Christian teaching."
> Specifically, that the Athanasian Creed was written in the fourth
> century (that's the 300's). Centuries before the Great Schism, and
> long before the western Church became The Roman Church. Further, the
> "Catholic" faith to which he refers was not, and is not, the 'modern'
> (anything after the 11th Century) Roman variation, but is the whole
> totality of the Faith as taught by the Apostles to Faithful Men, who
> taught it to other Faithful men, generation after generation.
So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion ["Being
buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of Christ?
Sprinkling water on unbelieving babies heads is not a 1st Century baptism
either.
__
Veff...
--
The most dangerous enemies to Christ are those who pretend to be his
friends, but are not faithful to his doctrine or the doctrine of his
ordained
Apostles.
<*{{{{><
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
" So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion
["Being
buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of
Christ?
We are saved by faith, not knowledge(i.e. Greek gnossis)
so-called.
Sprinkling water on unbelieving babies heads is not a st Century
baptism
either.
__
Veff...
Not on unbelieving babies, but on
the babies of believers.
Ac 2:39 - For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
even from his mother's womb.
Ac 10:47 - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be
baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
I showed where John the Baptist has the
Holy Ghost from his mother's womb,
and where those who have the Holy Ghost
shouldn't be denied bahptism, be a man
and admit you are wrong.
Jim
1Pe 2:2 - As newborn babes,
desire the sincere milk of the word,
that ye may grow thereby:
::: Jesus is LORD :::
"Faith" - the Italian version is "Truth".
As a child I really loved God. I did not need much, and I know now that
God was my best playmate at that time. Times were not very good, but I
was happy.
It was rather clear to me that God had to be somewhere. I lost him out
of sight, however, when I met enough people who did not believe in God
and offered other things that looked more interesting at first sight.
Curious as I was I tried out a lot. Feeling the emptiness without God, I
went around to look for Him again - and I found Him exactly there where
He had always been. Or better: He found me...
I met Jesus in the internet some years ago, and I gave him my life in
March 2000. I hope He will go on changing me until I am the way my
Heavenly Father wants me to be. I am surely very far from this. But in
his grace God has accepted me as one of his Children nevertheless,
because I put all my faith into his Son who died for me and my sins and
was the first to overcome death. Now I can live forever, and all who
call upon His name as well.
I like music, of course, Christian music, Vangelis, classical music,
rock music (Oldies), Peter Maffay, music from Israel and more.
I have a cute little cat, and I had a dog in former times, several
budgies and a very sweet rabbit. As a child I had a white mouse who went
to school with me. A rather educated mouse.
I love children very much. They are so sweet and so full of hope.
My favourite book is the Bible. I like the Gospel of John most, Genesis
and Revelation. Oh, and the Corinthians, and Romans, Ecclesiastes, Job,
ha, I almost forgot to mention Isaiah. Matthew? Not bad. Mark as well,
or Luke. You should read one of the Gospels... Well, but what about the
Proverbs? They are always good to have a look at - and the beautiful
Psalms. I think Ruth is a beautiful love story, and Esther is a good
example of what standing up for others in the eyes of God looks like.
Hmmm... there is also much comfort in the story of Joseph and his
brothers (starting in Genesis 37). What you can learn there? Hey, become
cool, let go, let God. Whatever it is, give it to Him. He will guide
you, and all will be well in the end.
My favourite Bible scripture is 1. Cor. 13, of course, but this one,
too:
Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
you are Mine.
Isaiah 43: 1
I love it, because it is true, as the whole Bible is God's word.
I am looking for the time when this will have come true:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the
first earth had passed away. And the sea no longer is. And I, John, saw
the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband. And I heard a great voice
out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He
will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will
be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away all tears from
their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying
out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He
said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to
me, It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To
him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the Water of Life freely.
He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he
will be My son. Revelation 21:1-7 MKJV
And this is my story:
Vera's Story
- for you -
I am addressing myself to you, as I know you are open-minded and
good-humoured, and will not condemn me for things that I really did not
know better at that time. The following is really a quite crazy story
and nothing for people who don't believe there might be something
outside of the world that is revealed to us over our senses. But it
might be interesting for you, as I know you really want to find out
about the secrets that make up what we call "life".
I had to find out that our senses actually grant us only a rather small,
restricted access to our world, and I found this out after I had dealt
with all those things that science can offer to us extensively.
Weird enough, in retrospective I know that God has never really left me,
and I do not know why. He must love me very much. To say that in
advance - God is everything for me. It IS a love affair (but nothing
sexual as someone thought here).
I would also like to apologize to you in advance, dear readers, if you
cannot follow my thoughts, as several things have become so normal to my
way of thinking that I sometimes forget that you might not understand
me, because you have not experienced what I have experienced. It is so
much enclosed in my ideology that I might not notice. In this case do
not hesitate to ask me about more details.
When I was born, there was Mummy and Daddy, my sister Angel and my
brother Michael (names changed). My father had been a Roman Catholic
before he dared to marry my mother, who was a Protestant - so he was
excommunicated from the church, and church never used to be a subject at
home. But when my brother became 14, he was confirmed at the Lutheran
State's Church. At that time I was five, and I started to become
interested in God and went to Sunday church - alone - as often as I
could to listen to the Gospel. I could not get enough of that. Weird, I
cannot really remember that my sister was confirmed, too, but she must
have been. Maybe they did not want to take me there - I was a very vivid
child, you see.
I went to school and found out that I knew more than others. The first
day I went there I told my mother afterwards that two girls one row in
front of me would stay down. I was right with that. This kind of
intuitive knowledge about people should follow me for the rest of my
life. I know who people are after they say some sentences. Too bad -
this intuition never worked when I tried to find a partner, however.
I loved to learn at school, especially in the first years. We were
rather poor in post-war Germany, there were no flats, and so we lived in
a small flat with two rooms only. I did not even own a bed of my own,
but I did not mind much, as I could choose where to sleep at night. I
loved to sleep in my father's bed. My father and me, we were a big team,
maybe because I did not know what was wrong with him. He was a gambler,
and our family was burdened with his addiction. My parents both smoked,
my mother had to work full-time, and I was a child that was more in the
way than anything else, I guess.
I learned to play alone, and as we lived in the town's centre, there
was not much to do for me. I was a child that loved to be outside, and
it was a pain for me if I had to stay in all day when it rained. I did
not need much - no toys, just some stones or screws or maybe a tree to
climb on - that could make me happy. Weird, I had no playmates, but in
my fantasy there were always some around me.
But there were some children where my grandmother lived. There was
Kaethe who told me there was no God. Oh, you should have seen me how
much I tried to explain that to her... "Look", I said, "all is from God.
Just take a table, and see that it is made of wood, and wood is from
trees, and trees - where do they come from? They are there, but God made
them. Everything there is comes from God!" Kaethe did not really believe
me, but had no better answer, either.
There were other children there, but I was not allowed to play with
them. They played some "doctor games", and one day I did not obey my
granny and played with them, but in the end I was angry about them for a
reason I cannot remember anymore, and so I went to my granny and told
her about the games the children were playing there. Weird, somehow I
knew that this was not really allowed. My granny said, "Oh dear, don't
ever go with them - if you do, God will not give you any children one
day."
That was hard. She did not know what she had done by telling me such a
nonsense, and it should follow me throughout the years to come. I knew:
God would never give me any children, and I suffered silently but much
when I thought of it.
I must have been the same age when my brother said that if things would
continue the way they did, there would be another World War within the
following five years. Oh dear - my brother was so intelligent, and I
never doubted that he was right. This and all the stories my granny had
told about World War II... They had been bombed out twice. My
grandfather did not have to fight in the army, because his father had
died in World War I and he had to care for his mother. He was not liked
much by the Nazis because he had not become a member in their party. But
he was responsible for the distribution of materials to build houses or
for coal and such things, because he worked for the town. This brought
him incarnation later, and he was kept single in a cell first, and later
in a camp. But in the end he was fully rehabilitated by the American
investigators, but he never really recovered from the time in prison.
I will also never forget the story my granny told me about the horse she
found in the street. It had been burned and black after a bombing night.
I loved horses so much. I think I would have died for this horse if I
could have made it alive again by that. My heart was crying over that
story, and I could hardly think of it without feeling the pain. And the
idea of another war had kept me - and I started to pray in the evenings
in bed, night after night, and nobody knew. I had so much fear, and I
prayed that God might help me to sleep. I could not sleep, but always
had to think about the horse and the war, and that I would never get
children and was a very bad child. One day I made up my mind that I
would go to our "Bundeskanzler" in case a war was ahead, and tell him
that this would be very bad, and that he should not allow this to
happen. I wanted to convince him personally, and beg him not to allow
this...
I am not sure, but maybe my prayers were heard. There has not been
another World War, and I am still praying for that. Maybe if we all
do...
When I was about eight, we moved to a suburb where I was very happy.
Though I was alone very often, I did not mind that much. I spent most of
the time outside in the wood, preferably at a secret place I called the
"Quelle" - the "Fountain".
One day after a night at my granny's place (my grandfather had died when
I was five, and I had not met my father's parents at all), she said we
would go home by tram. I loved to go by tram, and so I whistled on the
way, and sang songs. But my granny stopped me, and told me to be quiet.
We came home, and all the family was there. I knew something was very
wrong. I missed my father... But nobody really told me what had
happened. After a while I could guess... he had died. I was eleven then.
About half a year later my granny died as well.
So I was in touch with death rather early. I did not really believe the
people were dead. I knew they were not, they were just not there
anymore, and that was bitter. I did not ask God about it then. Maybe I
did not trust him enough to be able to explain...
Things changed a little. My father was not there anymore, and my mother
had not thought of denying the heritage, and so all the debitors came
and wanted money from her. But there was no money, and she offered to
pay them all back in small sums, and they all accepted that. She had to
work a lot, and I was alone at home, and after a while she dated again,
and so I was also alone at night. I led a very free life, and freedom
still means much to me.
When I was 13 my mother had met a man who should become my step-father.
He was very rich, and we had a better life then. He drank a lot, and
this was a problem, but somehow we got along well. They married when I
was 15, and he always wanted to adopt me, but my mother was too just.
She did not allow that, or he would have had to adopt my sister and my
brother as well, but they had a family of their own at that time
already, so my step-father denied that.
My "terrible teens" were really terrible. I started to smoke at 13, and
I always had a heartache because I fell in love with the wrong boys all
the time. Many liked me, but I did not like them, and vice versa. Tears,
tears, tears...
My mother got a heavy heart attack when I was 17, and that dominated her
life - and ours - from then on. We travelled a lot. I am glad that I
could visit so many places in the world. I was in Israel, in Egypt, in
Spain, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Italy, Austria, Greece...
Then I had a boy-friend who was a little older than me. He lived in the
village where we had a caravan, and one day I got a call at home. A
friend told me that my boy-friend had had a horrible accident. He had
been in a car driven by someone who had drunk and no driving license
when the police wanted to stop him. But the driver preferred to speed
up - and crashed into the wall of a house. My boy-friend was dead at
once, I was told. I saw this driver two weeks later drinking again at a
pub as if nothing had happened.
I had really loved George - that was his name, and I swore never to
forget him. I really did not forget him for more than ten years. It was
as if my life was at an end, too, and I thought it did not matter
anymore, whatever I did. I was like paralized.
I had another boy-friend, but was not really behind this relation, and
so I left him - poor one - after five years.
I met another man whom I married later. But shortly before we married,
he became very ill. He begged me not to let him down and marry him, and
so I married him after having lived with him for about three years
without being married, although it was a very bad situation to marry. I
did not know what it was at first, but then it was clear that he was
bi-polar. His depression was all my first marriage was about. I really
loved him very much, but could not really help him. He did not want to
see friends or go out, just be at home, me the only one he could stand
around him. After two years he got a little better, but his father got
the same illness. This is some comfort for me - it is hard for family
members not to feel guilty. But we really loved one another before he
became ill, all of a sudden.
When we married, my mother and my step-father separated and later got
divorced, because he had met another woman... and then my husband met
another woman in a sauna and betrayed me, and so I fired him and got
divorced very soon. My mother had become even more ill with cancer, and
she had to have a surgery. I pleaded to God to save her from that, but
He remained silent. So I thought there is no God, maybe a God far away,
but I could not know who He was, or if He was only some form of energy
or an alien.
My life was a ruin - everything had turned upside down, and I had just
started to study when I married. Then my mother died of cancer after a
long period of suffering. She died at the age of 58 on her birthday. I
came to the hospital in the morning with a bundle of red amaryllis - her
favorite flowers, but she had fallen into a coma already. But strange,
she opened her eyes to look at me for some seconds, and then she fell
back into the coma, and never woke up again. There was snow on that 4th
of December, and I will never forget the flowers in contrast to the
white landscape. I loved her so much...
I was so lonesome in this world after she was not there anymore, and did
not know how to make it in a world where you could not trust anybody. I
went over the asphalt pavement with the little dog my mother had left
and said to some God in Heaven I really did not believe in: "God, if you
are there, give me a sign that times will change for me some day! If you
exist, then let me find a cloverleaf with four leaves here on spot!!" I
turned my face to the ground, and what did I see growing next to a
dandelion at the wall of a house? Right you are! It was a cloverleaf
with four leaves, which are very, very seldom - growing on the pavement!
I thought I could not trust my eyes! I picked it up, dried and pressed
it and put it into my purse where it still is, not in a good shape
anymore, because I found it more than twenty years ago. Funny - God
reminded me of it later the seconds before I decided to give my life to
Jesus.
I lost the ground. I went out every night, and I did not care much about
things... I did not end my studies, because I could not afford to drive
to the university. I stopped the studies in the middle of the exams
which I had passed - half of them. But I did not register for the rest,
and the time to finish the studies simply ran out.
Some years later I met my second husband who drank a lot. But I did not
care much, and I drank a lot with him at that time (but never became
addicted). Then the phone rang one day again...
It was my sister. She informed me that my dear niece had had an
accident.
When I heard she was dead I shouted, "Why? Why? Why have you not taken
me? Why have you not taken me? Why?" (more...)
I was very angry with God. He had taken away everything from me! And now
he had taken away my dear niece who was the most beautiful and the
dearest girl I knew. My life was nothing worth at all - so why not me?
He had not even granted me own children, taken away my family, my
husband, my financial security, and now he had even taken my niece away
from me. She had heard a noise at her car and stopped on the motorway on
a sunny summer afternoon. She had phoned the police, and on her way back
to the car another car bumped into her beautiful body after the driver
had fallen asleep. She died of shock about half an hour later.
I could not bear any more, and I cried and cried and shouted why God had
taken her. Maybe he had heard that I really meant that. I would have
changed places with my niece if that had only been possible. I had no
family anymore, no real job, no money, no hope, no desires, and she was
so young and beautiful, 20 years of age...
But God had other plans with me.
I became pregnant that same year, and I know that this was a miracle,
and God gave my son to me. My later husband could not get any children,
and it had not been the time for me to become pregnant. I immediately
knew it, though. It was certain. When I did a pregnancy test some weeks
later and it was negative, I could not believe it. But that was just
because I knew it before a test could prove it. We married shortly after
that, and my husband was also very happy to become a father - and his
parents were happy to have a grand-child. My son's grandfather died
shortly before Christmas in 2006, and my son was the last person whom he
recognised. I know that my son meant much to him in his life.
But too bad that my husband could not stop drinking, and so this
marriage was a horror. I would say there was no marriage at all, and
after a while I got ill with my spine and the sciatic nerve. This was a
time when I thought about jumping from a bridge, but fortunately it was
just the idea. The pain was so heavy then, that I thought I could not
stand it. The worst thing was that I could not sleep at night, and I
could not stand, sit or lie, but only walked, up and down, and lost so
much weight that I was shocked about that. There were also severe
problems with my husband, financial problems as well, and I did not know
how to solve all of this. And there was the baby. But then I thought I
had to solve one problem after the other...
It was really not an easy decision for me to leave my husband, but I
decided to do so right after my recovery. I had a surgery at the
intervertebral discs that had pressed on the nerve, and - praise the
Lord! - I recovered fast, and then moved away from my husband to raise
my child alone. I do not want to go into detail about my marriage here,
and I have come over all that. But I was rather broken the first years
after that, and I wanted to stay alone for a longer time, because I
wanted to be a good mother, if I had not done much else good in my life.
But that meant to stay alone every evening, and every night, and it
meant much hardship, too, with regard to many aspects.
But it also meant much time for myself. Time to think it all over. Time
to find out what was really important in life. And I meditated much
doing autogenic training which I had taught myself. I went out much with
my little son, and he was the center of my life. I read much, mostly
scientific books about the universe, the evolution theory or philosophy
and such things. I wanted to know everything about life, about this big,
big puzzle that only waited for me to be put together. I had always
talked with my mother about these things, but she had warned me I should
not worry about all of this too much, and that we would never know...
But I just did not give up.
An endless number of pieces lying there. I had to pick them all up, but
what was the sense in all of that?
Some were pieces which did not build the picture of life, but just fit
in to make a larger part complete. Others were much clearer. They showed
colours and objects, yes. There were white ones, more than black ones,
and that was good. But I needed all to get the picture of truth. I
really had never hoped to get something so clearly as I got them later.
One day when I felt like sitting in a trap, very lonely, empty and
hopeless, I spoke to God again, who I did not really believe in, and I
just wanted to try out if something would happen, "God, if you are
really there, come into my life and change it!"
And that is how it all began...
The story I am telling you starts at this point, but I think it is
important to understand what had happened in my life before.
*******
I had a dream that night. I dreamed I was in the hall, painting the
walls white. There was a mess like there is when you paint walls, but a
neighbor came and rebuked me, "You are not allowed to do what you are
doing there, it is changing particles..."
I woke up and wondered what this dream might mean. Weird, I got the
answer the next night. There was a scientific TV show about materia and
anti-materia, and that they had found out to make anti-materia visible!
Hey, I was thrilled by that idea of the existence of parallel universes,
and I decided to look for literature about this, but I did not find any.
That was weird. I knew there had to be an answer... I sat down and
turned the computer on, and I imagined to write into another parallel
universe... The answers were really amazing... I asked if I might get
there... "YES" I asked if there were others.... "YES" I asked if my
niece was there, maybe "Yes, she is here" - Can I visit her? "But of
course, just come over". But how could I tell her I had no contact to my
sister? "BUT YOU HAVE IT"
BANG! - that was it! I must say that I had argued with my sister and
broken the contact for a while. She wanted to tell me how to live, but
she is a very different person than me - I do not want to say more about
that, as it is not really relevant here. But I understood now that I had
had the contact to her all the time, yes, over our minds. It was
telepathy! It was her that had not left me in peace, so I had asked God
to help me...
I decided to go and take the very next book about such things I could
get at a book shop. Strange, strange, the first book I got there was a
book with the name "Magie" - which means "magic". There were some
meditations described, and so I tried them out, and, weird enough, I
succeeded right away... One day when I was meditating on cleaning me
from bad influences it happened that something like a lightening hit me,
and I really could do many things after that. I healed people by laying
hands in them. Oh dear - but if I could really influence things and
people by that... Okay, I tried it all out and found that it worked. But
I also knew that magic goes the fastest way, and this could be through
oneself. If all my thoughts had an influence in this world... I had to
control them, I found, and started to do so, and denied all the bad
ideas that came into my mind. I was shocked how many bad thoughts had
passed just like that without control before. After a while the bad
ideas did not come anymore, and I must say, I was a completely new
person with much compassion for others, but also with the feeling to
have to save this world, which was also like a curse on me. I had so
much responsibility now, and if I could, was it not my duty to do good?
And I tried to save this world, very hard. I went to the highest spot in
my town, closed my eyes and visualized a wave of love leaving me, going
round the world,coming back to my place, being multiplied at every spot
where there were people open to be touched by it and pass it away
again... A world wide web spun of love that would reach everybody in the
end...
I still have a poem (in German, however, but I can translate it) which I
wrote in those days. I called it "The Wave of Love". I guess I really
started something by that.
Wave of Love
It was sent,
that wave, by her -
the wave of love.
It is flooding the earth,
coating it well -
the wave of love.
It is protecting the earth, taking it,
then piling up
at places where it can find same
and breaks there,
foaming,
just to get back to her
with stronger power
whispering:
WE ARE ONE!
And it was sent
that wave by her -
the wave of love...
First it was all very thrilling, but it also had some ugly side effects
that you saw shadows everywhere and got panic attacks. I concentrated on
aura magic and telepathy, and that worked really well. Then I heard a
voice one evening, saying, "Well, now say good-bye to all your friends.
It is time to leave..." That was so ugly and shocked me so much that I
reduced my activities, and there was no voice anymore. I decided to use
my "skills" for healing purposes only, and found that all the other
ideas to use magic were simply wrong and could do more harm than not.
Then I met a Christian in a forum in the internet, and he asked me if I
knew that God would not want me to do these things. I had never thought
of God, I must confess, but he told me that Christians would know about
such things. I had not reckoned with that. I had thought that he would
not take me seriously at all, but he did. And I could believe there
might be God, yes. I had experienced that there are things between
heaven and earth which we cannot explain, and that there is a spiritual
world.
I was so much attracted of what he said. I could feel there was more to
it than mere words. He really seemed to live with God, and when he spoke
of that it always hit me. But if there was a living God, I wanted to get
to know him! Yes, that was what I wanted with all my heart. And Jesus?
No, I could not really say yes to a god that was a man, that was too
simple. Well, but was the truth not mostly rather simple?
What would a god do if he wanted to contact his people? Maybe taking the
form of his creatures and live among them? Why not? And what would a god
do provided he was good? Yes, He would be like Jesus! He would exactly
do the things that Jesus did on earth. And the miracles? Oh, it had
become so easy to believe in them after all my experiences with magic.
And then it happened. God himself touched me with his love. He bent down
to me. He attracted me, and I could not resist this overwhelming love.
Like a magnet He drew me closer and closer to Him. And I started reading
the Bible, after so many books I had read, so many that had led to
nowhere but more questions.
Reading the Bible God spoke to me, and I could understand that he spoke
personally to me, yes, to me! He spoke to me right from the Bible - the
Words there were addressed only to me, only to me. He showed me how
people are, how I am, and how He is and who He is. And he made it very,
very clear that he loved me so much.
And I suddenly knew the truth - though I did not know the name of my
great God yet. It took me a bit longer to understand that God had come
down to earth as a man to die - for me, and for all the others. It took
me much too long. But God was patient with me.
I surrendered my life to God being seen and heard by more than 300
people during an evangelisation at the church where I was baptized
later. I was the only one who did so that evening, and I really did not
know anyone there. I thought about what God had done for me, how much he
had always loved me and how badly I had behaved against him, showing him
no love at all, not believing in Him. That was my biggest sin, yes. I
had not asked him in my life, not counted him in. I had even been into
esoteric without a single thought if he might like that idea. That was
bad. Suddenly there was just God and me. He told me: "Vera, I gave you
the cloverleaf as a sign, remember? I gave you your child, I have sent
you my love all the time - but you do not even want to know me... What
else do I have to do to make you believe in me?" I did not notice the
300 people around me who I did not know and who listened to me
confessing I wanted to give my life to Jesus. I will never forget that.
My real life started that moment. Born again, yes, a new creature. No
further looking for answers, everything was so clear now. All there is
in the Bible is true. It is true not because you might find it logical -
though it is. It is true the moment God himself speaks to you. He IS the
way, and the truth and the life, and you suddenly understand, and it is
more than just a feeling, or believing, indeed everything is clear. It
is an impressive experience.
I am no witch anymore, of course, and I have lost all my power and
thrown away all the magic books I had. I depend completely on God, but
He mostly answers my prayers, especially if I ask for others.
God lives with me now - that is the best thing! He is there, around me
all the time, yes, all the time. He guides me, and he comforts me. His
name is Jesus Christ. I can trust him, always, I can lean back and rely
on him. I know I am safe now, and I know nothing can really ever happen
to me.
He is the true and living God, sent to earth to die for my sins by His
Father in Heaven, His Holy Spirit still on earth and alive for His
people.
Everybody should listen to what God is telling him... Everybody should
ask for a cloverleaf from God. He is speaking to everybody, sending his
love to everybody.
Just listen carefully...
(From: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/vera%27s_story.html)
glenn gamc...@spiritone.com wrote in
4b218c92$0$86439$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net
®
Thanks for sharing your testimony.
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
pyotr filipivich
21:02:59 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:7mk3i5l6quoi288d5...@4ax.com...
>> Let the Record show that "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>> <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Thu, 10 Dec 2009
>> 08:31:13 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
>> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>>>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>>>>hold the catholic faith.
>>>
>>>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
>>>Christian teaching,
>>
>> Bzzzt, thank you for playing, and please accept a copy of the home
>> game as you leave the stage.
>>
>> Because it is apparent, you don't know what you are talking about.
>
>I told you what I was talking about...."the Catholic faith is complete
>Anathema to 1st Century
>Christian teaching."
And like I said, what you call "Catholic" is not the Catholic and
Apostolic Faith, as practiced in the ancient church, or today. Just
because the Latins call their ecclesiastical community "Catholic"
doesn't mean much. They've been busy redefining things for a
millennia, so the confusion is obvious.
>
>> Specifically, that the Athanasian Creed was written in the fourth
>> century (that's the 300's). Centuries before the Great Schism, and
>> long before the western Church became The Roman Church. Further, the
>> "Catholic" faith to which he refers was not, and is not, the 'modern'
>> (anything after the 11th Century) Roman variation, but is the whole
>> totality of the Faith as taught by the Apostles to Faithful Men, who
>> taught it to other Faithful men, generation after generation.
>
>So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion ["Being
>buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of Christ?
>Sprinkling water on unbelieving babies heads is not a 1st Century baptism
>either.
Apparently, then you don't believe in one baptism for the
forgiveness of sins.
And I'm also afraid you're reading modern protestantism back into
the historical record. Infant baptism was part and parcel of the
Church since Pentecost. "Unless one is born of water and spirit, he
cannot enter into the Kingdom of God! What is born of the flesh is
flesh. What is born of the Spirit is spirit." Unless you are born from
above, through baptism in Water and the Spirit, you shall not see the
Kingdom of God. That is not a case of "eventually, when you die, you
will go to heaven." That is "If you are born from above, by baptism
in water and the spirit, you will see the Kingdom of God, in the here
and now." (Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God!)
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>>What the modern variation of Roman Catholicism, to which you refer, may
>>be, I am not sure. Its scholasticism? Augustine? But even there, we
>>are starting to see differences no more severe than Antioch and
>>Alexandria of old. Even many of the things pointed out by Photius seem
>>to be coming to resolution, and the conflicts of the reformation in the
>>West mostly resolved. The real issue, in my mind, is the Pope
>>exercising power over the whole Church, and perhaps the filioque, but
>>even there, Vatican I is beginning to be seen with new perspective, and
>>the conciliar nature of the Church, the equality of bishops in apostolic
>>authority, may not be far off the horizon. I hope that we will see the
>>Papacy earn the trust of the East again, and the East forgive the many
>>hurts dealt it by and often insensitive West.
>
> From your mouth to God's ear. The problems are unfortunately tied
>up in human vanities; and the formal problems which lead to the
>excommunications and anathematizing in 1054 have only gotten set in
>stone since then.
One of the things that helped to set it in stone, though rarely mentioned in
discussions, dialogues and the like, was the publication of Anselm's "Cur Deus
homo", which was hugely influential in the West, and hardly at all in the
East.
It changed Western soteriology, and made it more difficult for East and West
to understand each other.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
The instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth
wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words,
even when the needy speaketh right.
But the liberal deviseth liberal things;
and by liberal things shall he stand (Isaiah 32:7-8).
glenn
> On Fri, 12/11/09, at 6:38:54PM,
> ::: Jesus is LORD ::: <jesus-...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
>> My name is Vera,
Snip drivel
>
>
> Thanks for sharing your testimony.
>
Anyone who compares Vera's words with her conduct on this NewsGroup soon
learns the truth about her.
(..Matt B...)
A lie is a lie
boasting is against God's word
Matt
I
Amen!
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
metaphysical
logic to formulate false doctrine."
"most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
original to matthew. Hope this helps,
– Bart Ehrman"
"the scholarly concensus is that Matthew 28:19 as it appears in ALL
MSS that contain Matthew 28:19 is original."
http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/l-ray-smith-and-matthew-2819/
Jim
The icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev
It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre -
but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the
Mystery of the Trinity.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
(Paperback)
~ Anselm of Canterbury (Author), Brian Davies (Editor), Gill Evans
(Editor)
Product Description
Although utterly convinced of the truth of Christianity, Anselm of
Canterbury struggled to make sense of his religion. He considered the
doctrines of faith an invitation to question, to think, and to learn;
and he devoted his life to confronting and understanding the most
elusive aspects of Christianity. His writings on matters such as free
will, the nature of truth, and the existence of God make Anselm one of
the greatest theologians and philosophers in history, and this
translation provides readers with their first opportunity to read his
most important works within a single volume.
http://www.amazon.com/Anselm-Canterbury-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0192825259
::: Jesus is LORD :::
hfrlro$s2q$1...@news.eternal-september.org
> "I" <I@backagain00000000002> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:4b215a14$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>
>>
>>> Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
>>
>>
>> The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
>> devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that working
>> for Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
>
> That's a good question...
He flees from us, but not from them - that is the problem in this group.
And they love to have him so close, sitting in their necks.
This group is actually good material for teaching how the devil works on
people. It is a valuable source for newbies to learn his evil people can
become when the devil has grabbed them. It is sad, though, and they
cannot be helped - according to God.
--
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://the-beauty-of-the-psalms.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://bible-prophecy-and-revelation.blogspot.com/
glenn
> "Mat 28:19 was falsified AFTER the pagans began to use Greek
> metaphysical
> logic to formulate false doctrine."
>
> "most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
> original to matthew. Hope this helps,
Argumentum Ad Populum
The argument based upon what most or all people think or believe is
characterized and shown to be sometimes persuasive but normally fallacious..
Just because most people believe the moon is made of green cheese does
not make the moon green cheese.
Learn to think.
Try this:
http://www.google.com/search?q=logical+fallacies&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Hope that helps.
jwshe...@satx.rr.com
> jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com wrote:
> > "Mat 28:19 was falsified AFTER the pagans began to use Greek
> > metaphysical
> > logic to formulate false doctrine."
>
> > "most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
> > original to matthew. Hope this helps,
>
> Argumentum Ad Populum
> The argument based upon what most or all people think or believe is
> characterized and shown to be sometimes persuasive but normally fallacious..
>
> Just because most people believe the moon is made of green cheese does
> not make the moon green cheese.
>
> Learn to think.
>
"most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
original to matthew. Hope this helps,
– Bart Ehrman"
"the scholarly concensus is that Matthew 28:19 as it appears in ALL
MSS that contain Matthew 28:19 is original."
http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/l-ray-smith-and-matthew-2819/
The empirical evidence is that all
the MSS that contain Matthew 28:19
have it.
How did your redactor add it to all
the copies in the ancient world? Maybe
he used a flying carpet to get arround.
Learn to think. You dodged the reason
they think so.
Jim
Heb 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so
great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin
which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race
that is set before us,
pyotr filipivich
about Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:45:44 +0200 did write/type or cause to
appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:15:11 -0800, pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Let the Record show that "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
>><broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Thu, 10 Dec 2009
>>08:31:13 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
>>alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
>>>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
>>>>hold the catholic faith.
>>>
>>>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
>>>Christian teaching,
>>
>> Bzzzt, thank you for playing, and please accept a copy of the home
>>game as you leave the stage.
>>
>> Because it is apparent, you don't know what you are talking about.
>>Specifically, that the Athanasian Creed was written in the fourth
>>century (that's the 300's). Centuries before the Great Schism, and
>>long before the western Church became The Roman Church. Further, the
>>"Catholic" faith to which he refers was not, and is not, the 'modern'
>>(anything after the 11th Century) Roman variation, but is the whole
>>totality of the Faith as taught by the Apostles to Faithful Men, who
>>taught it to other Faithful men, generation after generation.
>
>It has been said, however that it is neither Athanasian nor a Creed.
It is a creed, but not in the western sense of the word.
>
>It is purely Western, was originally composed in Latin, and included the
>filioque.
It does seem to have been composed in Latin, and not Greek. But
then again, the Nicene Creed was written in Greek, and "filioque" is a
Latin word, added by a Visigoth Bishop to the translation of the Greek
creed.
Remove that innovation and it is still a good statement of the
Fatih.
tschus
pyotr
glenn
> On Dec 12, 12:04 am, glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>> jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com wrote:
>>> "Mat 28:19 was falsified AFTER the pagans began to use Greek
>>> metaphysical
>>> logic to formulate false doctrine."
>>> "most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
>>> original to matthew. Hope this helps,
>> Argumentum Ad Populum
>> The argument based upon what most or all people think or believe is
>> characterized and shown to be sometimes persuasive but normally fallacious..
>>
>> Just because most people believe the moon is made of green cheese does
>> not make the moon green cheese.
>>
>> Learn to think.
>>
>
> "most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
> original to matthew. Hope this helps,
"Most scholars" ...??????
Mordecai
Glenn it is called deception.
The textual scholars do think the verse was there, but they also think the reference to the father, son and holy spirit was an addition to the verse.
That is, it is not an entirely new verse added in, but rather a sentence added to an existing verse and this sentence (not the whole verse) is the bit in question.
There is a way of deceiving where you tell the absolute truth in a way
which is interpreted by others as a lie.
In this case the scholars agree that this verse was in the original
but think it was altered.
The part which is not accepted by the scholars is the part Jim wishes
to use to promote his ideas.
Jim claims correctly that they think the verse is in the original (true) but leaves out that they think it was altered by this additional sentence.
This he testifies that what the textual critics think that this PART
of the verse was in the original when they do NOT!
He has told the truth. He has spoken nothing but the truth ... but
in deliberately withholding "the whole truth", he has tried to bring deception.
But ... who is Jim trying to deceive?
The textual critics? No ... they know what they believe.
The people who seek to know the real words of the bible? They study
the texts and the reports of the scholars and will not be deceived.
It is people who just want another to find answers for them.
In this case, some lazy biblical critics, and most christians.
I always ask three question - what do they do, how do they do it and why do they do it.
Jim here is trying to deceive christians.
His deeds are pretty plain ... this is what he has accomplished. He
has given them a false report designed to allow them to believe that the
verse is supported..
His method? He is using slander on textual scholars to do so ...
So what is his motive?
To convey truth? No ... you can A-bomb the truth and it will remain
truth. If you believed it was truth - you would not need to deceive others
- you only do that if you do not think the evidence will stand up.
To enlighten? No.
To discuss? No again.
To impose a belief system which he knows is suspect and is determined that he is going to believe despite all evidence to the contrary, and he is going to try to force others to believe like him?
That is the only motive I can come up with to try to deceive Christians
that a verse is supported by the textual critics when it is not.
Mind you, you might deduce another motive for Jim to go out of
his way to deceive christians.
I am sure G_d can come up with many more ... but I can only find this
one motive.
Deeds I can see ... with a fair degree of accuracy ...
Methods likewise.
Motives are less ... easily discerned.
I give the overall process a 70% accuracy.
But this sure seems to be the trend of Jim, trying to assert a reality
upon events which are not worthy of that degree of reliability. And using
methods which are not truth motivated to do so.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality
is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
glenn
> On Dec 12, 12:04 am, glenn <gamccl...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>> jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com wrote:
>>> "Mat 28:19 was falsified AFTER the pagans began to use Greek
>>> metaphysical
>>> logic to formulate false doctrine."
>>> "most textual scholars think that the verses are almost certainly
>>> original to matthew. Hope this helps,
>> Argumentum Ad Populum
>> The argument based upon what most or all people think or believe is
>> characterized and shown to be sometimes persuasive but normally fallacious..
>>
>> Just because most people believe the moon is made of green cheese does
>> not make the moon green cheese.
>>
>> Learn to think.
>>
>
Can't you read scripture, man?
"MOST SCHOLARS" rejected Jesus, and condemned Him to death!!!
Are you paying attention?
gabriel
Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: >The Text of the Athanasian Creed
: >Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
: >hold the catholic faith.
:
: What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
: Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
: baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
: commanded by Peter
Correct.
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world,
and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
Romans 10:10 KJV
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and
with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Water baptism does not save. It's merely a public profession of
faith. But we are commanded to be baptized after being saved.
It's our faith, given by the leading of God, that saves us.
Acts 2:38-39 KJV
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
call.
Some misunderstand these verses. Even though the promise is unto
these people, they were commanded to first repent. It's not until
a person comes of age to understand repentance that they can
repent and finally be saved.
: [who is supposed to be their venerated teacher] thus they
: are still languishing in their sins because they stupidly sprinkle water on
: unbelieving babies who haven't a clue who Christ is, let alone believe in
: him, and the Catholic blaspheming 'fathers' forbid them being baptised even
: when they finally do believe many years later.
:
: If you don't want the dead-cert-short-cut to "hell" don't dare latch-on to
: the unwashed RCC.
: Even it's appalling history both past and present shows it's murderous
: Inquisition fruits for all to see and marvel at.
: Why...many of it's blaspheming, supposed Holy Spirit guided 'fathers' are
: now languishing is varies jails for buggery or the rape of the children of
: their diminishing flocks.
: As Jesus stated....."By their fruits [actions and works] shall ye know
: them."
: __
: Veff...
: "4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my
: people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
: plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered
: her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her
: double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her
: double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so
: much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen,
: and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come
: in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned
: with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her." Rev 18:3-8 (KJV)
®
gabriel <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:31:13 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist"<broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> :>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
> :>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
> :>hold the catholic faith.
> :
> : What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
> : Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
> : baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
> : commanded by Peter
Gabe,
Can you go into your options and change your quote delimiters to
">", instead of ":"?
The reason is because most news clients don't recognize ":" as
quoted text, and because it is therefore difficult to distinguish
your text from the person you're quoting.
gabriel
wrote:
: On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:31:13 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
: <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:
: >>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
: >>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
: >>hold the catholic faith.
: >
: >What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
: >Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
: >baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
: >commanded by Peter [who is supposed to be their venerated teacher] thus they
: >are still languishing in their sins because they stupidly sprinkle water on
: >unbelieving babies who haven't a clue who Christ is, let alone believe in
: >him, and the Catholic blaspheming 'fathers' forbid them being baptised even
: >when they finally do believe many years later.
:
: Please show where baptism is ONLY TO BE CONFERRED on professed "believers". Such
: actions relegate dead youth to less than full heaven due to the presence of the
: original sin nature.
By the beliefs of the RCC, if a baby dies before receiving water
baptism (and many do) such a baby is also relegated to hell. Same
problem.
The Bible does not say what happens to babies that die before
coming to an age of understanding to be able to repent. Perhaps
he allows their soul another chance being born in another baby.
Who knows? But not knowing does not mean we should make up our
own version of the doctrines of the Bible to cover our lack of
knowledge on the matter.
Proverbs 3:5 KJV
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
thine own understanding.
:
:
: The Dukester, American-American
gabriel
"jwshe...@satx.rr.com" <jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
: On Dec 10, 3:13�pm, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
: <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: > "duke" <duckgumb...@cox.net> wrote in message
: >
: > news:17r1i5ddoci6u7c73...@4ax.com...
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: > > On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:31:13 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist"
: > > <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
: >
: > >>>The Text of the Athanasian Creed
: > >>>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
: > >>>hold the catholic faith.
: >
: > >>What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st Century
: > >>Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even been
: > >>baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
: > >>commanded by Peter [who is supposed to be their venerated teacher] thus
: > >>they
: > >>are still languishing in their sins because they stupidly sprinkle water
: > >>on
: > >>unbelieving babies who haven't a clue who Christ is, let alone believe in
: > >>him, and the Catholic blaspheming 'fathers' forbid them being baptised
: > >>even
: > >>when they finally do believe many years later.
: >
: > > Please show where baptism is ONLY TO BE CONFERRED on professed
: > > "believers". Such
: > > actions relegate dead youth to less than full heaven due to the presence
: > > of the
: > > original sin nature.
: >
: > Please show me first in the NT, where unbelievers were commanded to be
: > baptised.....
: > Thanks.
: > __
: > Veff...
: > � <*{{{{><
:
:
: Households were baptised. As a gnostic so-called
: you keep confusing belief with understanding. The
: children of believing parents has faith in the milk and
: faith being given them.
So a baby's faith in milk saves them from hell?
:
: Jim
:
: Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
gabriel
"jwshe...@satx.rr.com" <jwshe...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
: On Dec 10, 6:29�pm, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"
: � children of believing parents have faith in the milk and
: � faith being given them.
:
: � Jim
:
: � Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
: � � � � � � � �and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
: � � � � � � � �and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
: � � � � � � � �even from his mother's womb.
This is a specific case of a prophet being risen for God's use -
not a typical way that everyone gets saved.
:
: Ac 10:47 - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be
: baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
:
:
Which shows it's not baptism that saves. It's the Word of God
that saves.
Acts 10:44-48 KJV
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on
all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were
astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the
Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be
baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These people have already received the Holy Ghost - and now they
are to be baptized with water.
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the
Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Romans 10:17 KJV
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word
of God.
Water baptism does not save. It is merely a public profession of
faith after the fact.
(..Matt B...)
<jesus-...@lycos.com> wrote:
>LuckyLuke fonta...@hotmail.com wrote in
>hfrlro$s2q$1...@news.eternal-september.org
>> "I" <I@backagain00000000002> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> news:4b215a14$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>> Randy Young "�" <pulpi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Unfortunately Satan will not be bound until Christ returns
>>>
>>>
>>> The bible that Randy Young luvs more than God says to resist the
>>> devil and he will flee from you. (James 4:7). Why ISN'T that working
>>> for Randy Young & Vera Six ??????
>>
>> That's a good question...
>
>He flees from us, but not from them - that is the problem in this group.
>And they love to have him so close, sitting in their necks.
>
>This group is actually good material for teaching how the devil works on
>people. It is a valuable source for newbies to learn his evil people can
>become when the devil has grabbed them. It is sad, though, and they
>cannot be helped - according to God.
Vera Six you used to be a witch as you admit. So how can you claim
anyone can't be "" helped - according to God""
If a witch can become Christian then how can you claim that.
Show proof please?
God Bless
Matt
>
>
>
> --
>
(..Matt B...)
duke
>Water baptism does not save. It's merely a public profession of
>faith. But we are commanded to be baptized after being saved.
>It's our faith, given by the leading of God, that saves us.
The act of baptism makes one a Christian by promise, not water, but is a
requirement.
Jesus said that one cannot see the kingdom of God unless born again. You know,
it's the fulfillment of a promise to clean up one's act and follow Jesus that
counts.
Better luck next time.
>Some misunderstand these verses. Even though the promise is unto
>these people, they were commanded to first repent. It's not until
>a person comes of age to understand repentance that they can
>repent and finally be saved.
Yet below the age of reason, nominally 16, one is not mature enough to fully
appreciate wrongdoing. And hence cannot sin and cannot then repent of sin.
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
news:0ee623e6-4ed9-4470...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> " So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion
> ["Being
> buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of
> Christ?
>
> so-called.
>
> Sprinkling water on unbelieving babies heads is not a st Century
> baptism
> either.
> __
> Veff...
>
> Not on unbelieving babies, but on
> the babies of believers.
The babies are still unbeleivers and so are not entilted to be baptised [
and uslessly sprinkling a few drops of water on a baby means nothing at
all ].
> Ac 2:39 - For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
> all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And once they are 'called' just as Paul was, will be baptised just as he
was.
> Lu 1:15 - For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord,
> and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink;
> and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost,
> even from his mother's womb.
So every child born is a 'John the baptist' ?
You are in cookoo land again, Jim.
> Ac 10:47 - Can any man forbid water, that these should not be
> baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
>
> I showed where John the Baptist has the
> Holy Ghost from his mother's womb,
So show were every new-born child has the Holy Spirit from birth, Jim.
Thanks.
> and where those who have the Holy Ghost
> shouldn't be denied bahptism,
If they have the Holy Spirit and believe in Christ they are entitled to be
baptised.
If they don't believe as new-born babies cannot, they are not entitled to be
baptised by water immersion, that is for believers only, and flicking water
on a persons head is NOT a 1st Century baptism either.
>be a man
> and admit you are wrong.
I am NOT wrong....I am spot on.... and dead right....{;o;}
So why should I lie just to please those who are ignorant regarding the
reasons and necessity of being baptised after believing in Christ?
> 1Pe 2:2 - As newborn babes,
> desire the sincere milk of the word,
> that ye may grow thereby:
Which means earnestly listen to what the Word is saying and desire it in the
same the way babies do their own mothers milk.
__
Veff...
--
Disclaimer:
I am no man's personal enemy in merely secular matters.
But when they approach me on the premises of the Truth as was taught and
practised in the 1st Century,
then they are either my friends or my foes, and I am theirs.
I am their friends for the Truth's sake, or I am their foe for the Truth's
sake.
Indeed, the most dangerous enemies to Christ are those who pretend to be his
friends,
but are not faithful to his doctrine or the doctrine of his ordained
Apostles.
<*{{{{><
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
news:0ee623e6-4ed9-4470...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> " So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion
> ["Being
> buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of
> Christ?
>
> We are saved by faith, not knowledge(i.e. Greek gnossis)
> so-called.
Oh! you need more then faith, "Faith without works is DEAD" you also need
obedience, and the first commandment given by both Christ and Peter after
belief is to get yourself baptised.
You cannot escape it.
__
Veff...
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
I certainly do.....but the RCs and it's whore daughters of today fail to
obey Christ's calling to be baptised once they do believe in him.
> And I'm also afraid you're reading modern protestantism back into
> the historical record. Infant baptism was part and parcel of the
> Church since Pentecost.
Not in the Bibles I have ever read...only "believers" were commanded to be
baptised in the NT.
So please show us where unbelievers were baptised.
Thanks.
__
Veff...
<*{{{{{><
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
news:j947i5p5ht5j4rd0j...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:31:13 -0000, "1st Century Apostolic
> Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> : >The Text of the Athanasian Creed
> : >Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he
> : >hold the catholic faith.
> :
> : What absolute tosh, the Catholic faith is complete Anathema to 1st
> Century
> : Christian teaching, why..... since the 13th Century they aren't even
> been
> : baptised by water burial AFTER coming to a knowledge of Christ as is
> : commanded by Peter
>
> Correct.
> Mark 16:15-16 KJV
> 15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world,
> and preach the gospel to every creature.
> 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
> that believeth not shall be damned.
>
> Romans 10:10 KJV
> 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and
> with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
>
> Water baptism does not save.
It does make up part of the vital process, for if one is not baptised today,
they have disobeyed Christ and Peter and have refused to "Put on Christ" and
his saving name.
"27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
Christ........29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and
heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:26-29 (KJV)
Thus today, baptism is essential to "Put on Christ" and become Abraham's
seed.
Those who refuse are not part of Christ neither are they "Abraham's seed".
>It's merely a public profession of
> faith.
It's much more....see above.
Also it is the processes in which a man is "Born again of water" a second
time, which Jesus stated is essential if one wishes to enter his kingdom.
>But we are commanded to be baptized after being saved.
> It's our faith, given by the leading of God, that saves us.
It's our works also....."20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith
without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac
his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and
by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which
saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye SEE then how that by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED, and NOT by faith
ONLY." James 2:19-24 (KJV)
I hope you too can see that now, Gabriel.
> Acts 2:38-39 KJV
> 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
> one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
> and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
> all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
> call.
>
> Some misunderstand these verses. Even though the promise is unto
> these people, they were commanded to first repent. It's not until
> a person comes of age to understand repentance that they can
> repent
And then be immersed in water being "Buried with him in baptism".
>and finally be saved.
Only after the "Few-saved" of the "Many-called" have been accounted worthy
after their judgement day.
__
Veff...
glenn
>
> That is the only motive I can come up with to try to deceive Christians
> that a verse is supported by the textual critics when it is not.
> Mind you, you might deduce another motive for Jim to go out of his way
> to deceive christians.
> I am sure G_d can come up with many more ... but I can only find this
> one motive.
>
> Deeds I can see ... with a fair degree of accuracy ...
> Methods likewise.
> Motives are less ... easily discerned.
>
> I give the overall process a 70% accuracy.
> But this sure seems to be the trend of Jim, trying to assert a reality
> upon events which are not worthy of that degree of reliability. And
> using methods which are not truth motivated to do so.
>
>
> --
> Mordecai!
>
> When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
> When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality
> is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
>
>
Thanks for your comments Mordecai...
I agree that there certainly was a Matthew 28:19
My personal belief, after reading a lot of commentary and studying the
similar scriptures and usage, is that the original text most likely said...
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in My name..."
The "father, son and holy ghost" being the trinitarian formula devised
sometime after AD 300... and /inserted/ later...
The term "holy ghost" is a late usage, meaning "Holy Spirit" which, it
seems to me, is meaning "Spirit of God."
The "Spirit of God" *IS* God the Father, NOT a persona of a multiple
person being; just as the "Spirit of Christ" IS Jesus the Son of God,
NOT a second being of a multiple persona.
At any rate, I believe some people, such as Randy(R), "Pastor" Dave,
Vera and Ike, are simply liars in their mind and soul, and have no love
of truth, and in fact, hate truth and must attack truth and anyone who
believes Truth, or any idea or doctrine which opposes the lies and false
doctrine they themselves believe and teach.
Other people, perhaps a majority of humans, believe what they wish to
believe regardless if they can demonstrate it to be truth or not -- and
having believed it, they feel confident in that belief, then if someone
or some idea contradicts their chosen belief they feel threatened and
must attack that which threatens them.
The triune god is NOT the God of Abraham, or Moses
[KJV] Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Taken in the context of the time, and nations and false gods which the
Children of Israel were in the midst, this is scripture is a clear
statement that the Lord of Israel is *NOT A TRIUNE BEING*
Glenn
pyotr filipivich
Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Sat,
12 Dec 2009 19:53:08 -0000 did write/type or cause to appear in
alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
So, what you are saying is that the "mentally handicapped", the
brain damaged, and those who otherwise lack the mental capacity you
have decided is necessary for salvation, are going to hell.
So, not just Sole Fide, but Sola Fide and Knowledge, and
understanding. Plus being old enough.
What ever happened to "allow the little children to come to Me."?
Or "Except you have the faith of a small child, you shall not enter
the kingdom of God"?
Matt 18.
At that time, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, �Who then is
greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?�
Jesus called a little child to himself and set him in their midst.
He then said, �Amen, I tell you that unless you change and become as
little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
But whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in
the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever receives such a little child in my Name
receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe
in me to stumble, it would be better for such a person that a huge
millstone be hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of
the sea.
pyotr filipivich
Traditionalist" <broadband1234[remove]@ntlworld.com> on or about Sat,
alt.religion.christian.episcopal the following:
You missed this minor detail ^^^^^
>>>
>>>> Specifically, that the Athanasian Creed was written in the fourth
>>>> century (that's the 300's). Centuries before the Great Schism, and
>>>> long before the western Church became The Roman Church. Further, the
>>>> "Catholic" faith to which he refers was not, and is not, the 'modern'
>>>> (anything after the 11th Century) Roman variation, but is the whole
>>>> totality of the Faith as taught by the Apostles to Faithful Men, who
>>>> taught it to other Faithful men, generation after generation.
>>>
>>>So how come Catholics are no longer baptised by water immersion ["Being
>>>buried with him in baptism" ] AFTER they come to a knowledge of Christ?
>>>Sprinkling water on unbelieving babies heads is not a 1st Century baptism
>>>either.
>>
>> Apparently, then you don't believe in one baptism for the
>> forgiveness of sins.
>
>I certainly do.....but the RCs and it's whore daughters of today fail to
>obey Christ's calling to be baptised once they do believe in him.
So nu, do you advocate that infants not be raised up in a
Christian home, because they are unbelievers, being too young to
understand the teachings?
>
>> And I'm also afraid you're reading modern protestantism back into
>> the historical record. Infant baptism was part and parcel of the
>> Church since Pentecost.
>
>Not in the Bibles I have ever read...only "believers" were commanded to be
>baptised in the NT.
So the whole household of the Phillipian jailer did not include
the children?
>So please show us where unbelievers were baptised.
Interesting conjecture. How many unbelievers actually were
baptized? That is to say, how many who were baptized, remained
believers? I recall that St Paul writes to Timothy that Demas has
fallen in love with the world and left the Way and gone to
Thessolinika.
Post the writing of what gets called scripture, there is Julian
the Apostate.
Of course, there is the small question of what baptism means, does
and
®
> It does make up part of the vital process, for if one is not baptised
> today, they have disobeyed Christ and Peter and have refused to "Put on
> Christ" and his saving name.
> "27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
> Christ........29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and
> heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:26-29 (KJV)
>
> Thus today, baptism is essential to "Put on Christ" and become Abraham's
> seed.
> Those who refuse are not part of Christ neither are they "Abraham's seed".
Doesn't Romans 6:1-14 clearly show the Holy Spirit baptizes us
into Christ at the moment of faith in Christ's death and
resurrection? And don't the gospels say of Christ that He will
baptize with the Holy Ghost? And didn't Paul say Christ sent me
"not to baptize", but to preach the gospel? Yes, water baptism
is a public testimony of your identification with Christ, but it
is the Holy Spirit baptism that results in our changed position
and blessings with God, not the physical water.
duke
wrote:
>>Oh! you need more then faith, "Faith without works is DEAD" you also need
>>obedience, and the first commandment given by both Christ and Peter after
>>belief is to get yourself baptised.
>>You cannot escape it.
> So, what you are saying is that the "mentally handicapped", the
>brain damaged, and those who otherwise lack the mental capacity you
>have decided is necessary for salvation, are going to hell.
Not if they can't freely and by choice provide said love.