More evidence of miracles: 'Dead mother and son' alive after Christmas 'miracle'
gabriel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8435457.stm
A mother from Colorado who doctors said had died while giving
birth to her son, has said it is a Christmas miracle that both
she and the boy are alive.
Tracey Hermanstorfer's heart stopped beating and her son Coltyn
appeared lifeless after the Caesarean section on Christmas Eve
(24 December).
However a few minutes after he was delivered, both began
breathing again.
Dr Stephanie Martin told Good Morning America she could not
explain how the pair survived.
Mrs Hermanstorfer and her husband Mike told the American
television show that their baby was now healthy and they were
doing "good" following the drama at Colorado Springs Memorial
Hospital.
'Heart attack'
The couple, who already had two children, had to go into the
hospital seven weeks earlier than planned.
Her husband, 37, said his wife was tired after receiving an
epidural during the labour but after closing her eyes, she
"wasn't waking up".
She stopped breathing and she is believed to have suffered a
heart attack before her heart stopped beating entirely.
Dr Martin said she was called in and the outlook was grim since
in most situations like this, "despite the best efforts of the
team", the mother was often unable to be revived.
She said doctors then tried to focus on delivering the baby but
when he was born he was "limp" and "completely lifeless".
Mr Hermanstorfer told the Associated Press news agency: "I had
everything in the world taken from me, and in an hour and a half
I had everything given to me."
Dr Martin said she did not have a "great explanation" for why Mrs
Hermanstorfer's heartbeat returned.
"Somewhere between four and five minutes she had been without
heart rate and had stopped breathing a minute or two prior to her
heart stopping," she said.
The doctors were then able to resuscitate the baby.
Despite tests, she said doctors were still not sure about what
had happened.
However Mrs Hermanstorfer and her husband Mike have said they
believed it was down to a miracle.
She said: "I got a second chance in life."
Dr Martin said she would take help from wherever it came.
Bob LeChevalier
>More evidence of miracles.
I was going to post this myself. You said that it never happened that
someone's heart stopped and then they came back to life, and then that
very thing happened.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8435457.stm
Of course it isn't at all "evidence of miracles"
The woman and her husband "believe" it was a miracle, but that doesn't
make it one. But there is no reason at all to suspect any
supernatural involvement. And just because scientists don't have an
explanation, doesn't make it a miracle either.
To have evidence of miracles, you need evidence that a supernatural
agent or force was involved. Produce the agent, or give it up.
lojbab
---
Bob LeChevalier - artificial linguist; genealogist
loj...@lojban.org Lojban language www.lojban.org
::: Jesus is LORD :::
slj1k5dq1940gmuls...@4ax.com
That is just a wonderful miracle! God is so good! His name be praised
forever and ever!
Just have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQsVlFfqxWE
I do not believe in accidents... I found there are none. All goes
according to God's plan. Some are protected by His angels, while others
are called to die. Why? Who could say but only God alone.
My niece died on the highway 20 years ago under weird circumstances. She
had heard a noise at her car, stopped and called the police for help
form an emergency phone at the side of the road. She went back to her
car, and then another car driver came, fell asleep right there and
crashed her car into my niece who died shortly afterwards from a heart
shock. I was no believer at that time, but I was very angry with God and
how He could allow such things to happen. Again and again I accused Him
and wanted to know why He had taken her, but left me there? The same
year I got my answer. I was pregnant, and that was why He had not taken
me. He made me a follower later, and that was another reason why. My
sister, the girl's mother, is no believer, so she cannot forgive God
taking her child away, and there is nothing I could say to comfort her.
All I can do is trust God enough to know that He always does the right
things, and I guess I will be surprised to hear His answer about it -
later.
I believe we will then see all the miracles that He has done in our
lives, in our neighborhood, in our town or country. There is nothing
that would escape His eyes, although He often shuts them when He sees
all the hate from the creatures He made.
If we humans would all be more aware of that, we would probably do more
good things and praise God for all He gives us every day and every day.
If we humans all knew that life will continue after we pass away here on
earth, for life is of a substance that cannot be destroyed ever, all
those things we now feel are so important would lose their meaning, and
we could be free from the evil and live for a better world - which will
come. We can rely on the Lord with that, for He said so.
"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle
of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his
people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God
shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more
death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne
said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for
these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am
Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is
athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." - Revelation
21:3-6 KJV
A Happy New Year 2010!
Jesus is LORD!
--
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://the-beauty-of-the-psalms.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://bible-prophecy-and-revelation.blogspot.com/
Mordecai
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
Hmm
I am not a person who either believes - nor does not believe in miracles.
If they exist - then they will be heard of rarely so I will probably never
come near one myself.
I am both an atheist and a theist (both models make accurate predictions of
the universe, and I cannot disprove either - so I use both).
But I thought I would discuss "miracles.'
I am going to go into QM and the more extreme use of the QM predicts the
impossible. Such as the creation of a Boeing 747 spontaneously on the moon,
or walking through walls. These things occur once in many lifetimes of the
universe - and it requires belief in QM.
Myself? I am unsure that the mathematics used in QM can be taken to this
extreme. This is about "does the mathematical model represent reality
completely, or only to a limit." I suspect there is a limit and these
predictions - whilst true in the mathematical model, are not true in the
real world ... but it is a guess and I mark it as such.
But ... suppose that QM is true and you can walk through a wall, and you
do.
Remember it is not repeatable as it occurs in many lifetimes of the
universe.
But YOU have walked through the wall, I have not.
So you come to me and tell me that you walked through a wall - and of
course, I am sceptical. Did you? Questions - non repeatable - I can only
doubt.
I cannot confirm it - you cannot confirm it - there are other explanations
(blackouts for example) ... I am forced to dismiss the incident.
Here is the problem - you cannot prove a miracle. Not even a "natural
miracle."
This has nothing to do with what occurred.
Miracles - even if they occur - do not prove a deity.
Miracles are very, very rare.
Miracles are unprovable.
As a sceptic - I am forced to dismiss miracles. They are ... neutral.
As a sceptic of my own ideas of the universe - I must allow for their
possibility, but note that as they are improbable, they might as well be
ignored.
They cannot be counted upon, predicted, or controlled in any way. They are
as .. important ... in my scheme of things as luck such as winning lotto.
If perchance I get one .. great. But it cannot prove much.
I have a few things in my life which are ... inexplicable.
As an atheist - I shrug as a lack of an explanation does not imply
anything.
As a theist - I look with wonder - but is remains inexplicable with the
label "G_d" assigned to it.
I laugh when I hear about miracles.
I happen to be a devoted theist and assign many things to my deity ... but
I am also a dedicated atheist and laugh at my own pretensions.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
gabriel
Indeed! Amen!
gabriel
"Somewhere between four and five minutes she had been without
heart rate and had stopped breathing a minute or two prior to her
heart stopping," she said.
So she did not breath for 5-7 minutes (4-5 minutes no heart rate,
and 1-2 minutes before that no breathing).
The doctors were then able to resuscitate the baby.
It was observed by several witnesses. It was inexplicable and
clearly a miracle as at that point.
> This has nothing to do with what occurred.
>
> Miracles - even if they occur - do not prove a deity.
> Miracles are very, very rare.
They prove there's something supernatural going on. People don't
go without breathing for 5-7 minutes and then suddenly start
breathing again, let alone a baby *and* her mother together at
the same time.
> Miracles are unprovable.
They continue to be observed, and recur again and again. So
miracles are scientific fact. But science is impotent to explain
them, so they just pretend they don't exist lest people start
considering God more than they already do, which of course also
shows their bias and subsequent inability, both intentional and
otherwise, to reach the logical conclusion science demands in
such cases: that naturalism is not all there is to the world.