The obvious madness of the Bible stories
Andrew W
Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright implausible.
The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of future
humanity to an endless torture in hell.
God creates Adam and Eve so dumb that they listen to and obey a serpent in a
tree, an obvious villain to anyone with a brain, and then God just
carelessly allows them to follow their stupid choices and condemn themselves
and all of future humanity.
Why would a loving Creator create such dumb beings and then let them do
something with such horrible results and far reaching consequences?
Do these people ever think about anything they read?
The story is as ridiculous, simplistic and banal as the president of America
allowing two teenagers the free choice to come to a military base and press
a button that will launch a missile and start a world wide nuclear war.
And yet Christian fundys accept and believe these stories without
question, just because priests and preachers started calling the Bible the
"word of God".
Unbelievable.
--
Andrew W.
When a brother acts insanely, he is offering you an
opportunity to bless him. His need is YOURS. You NEED the
blessing you can offer him. There is no way for you to have it
EXCEPT by giving it.
~ A Course in Miracles
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
Links page -
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner/links.htm
Doug
<removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote in article
<h29tah$aco$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
> Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
>
> Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright
> implausible.
>
> The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
> individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of future
> humanity to an endless torture in hell.
Only a gullible, uninformed person would say such a thing. There is not a
hint about "endless torture in hell" in the book of Genesis! Hell was not
one of the things God created. Actually the idea of unending infernal
torments was invented by pagan rulers of ancient Rome. It was introduced
into Christian doctrine by some of the early church fathers, from their
pagan past, and merged with the teachings of the New Testament.
Livy, an ancient historian, says Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome,
invented this superstition, to control "the rough and ignorant" plebs.
"Rome was now at peace; there was no immediate prospect of attack from
outside and the tight rein of constant military discipline was relaxed.
In these novel circumstances there was an obvious danger of a general
relaxation of the nation's moral fibre, so to prevent its occurrence Numa
decided upon a step which he felt would prove more effective than
anything else with a mob as rough and ignorant as the Romans were in
those days. This was to inspire them with the fear of the gods...and he
was in the habit of meeting the goddess Egeria at night, and that it was
her authority that guided him in the establishment of such rites."
Livy, History of Rome 1:19.
Another historian, Polybius, says in Histories VI,56: "But among all the
useful institutions, that demonstrate the superior excellence of the
Roman government, the most considerable perhaps is the opinion which the
people are taught to hold concerning the gods: and that, which other men
regard as an object of disgrace, appears in my judgment to be the very
thing by which this republic chiefly is sustained. I mean, superstition:
which is impressed with all it terrors; and influences both the private
actions of the citizens, and the public administration also of the state,
in a degree that can scarcely be exceeded. This may appear astonishing to
many. To me it is evident, that this contrivance was at first adopted for
the sake of the multitude. For if it were possible that a state could be
composed of wise men only, there would be no need, perhaps, of any such
invention. But as the people universally are fickle and inconstant,
filled with irregular desires, too precipitate in their passions, and
prone to violence; there is no way left to restrain them, but by the
dread of things unseen, and by the pageantry of terrifying fiction. The
ancients, therefore, acted not absurdedly, nor without good reason, when
they inculcated the notions concerning the gods, and the belief of
infernal punishments; but much more those of the present age are to be
charged with rashness and absurdity, in endeavoring to extirpate these
opinions. For, not to mention effects that flow from such an institution,
if, among the Greeks, for example, a single talent only be entrusted to
those who have the management of any of the public money; though they
give ten written sureties, with as many seals and twice as many
witnesses, they are unable to discharge the trusts reposed in them with
integrity. But the Romans, on the other hand, who in the course of their
magistracies, and in embassies, disperse the greatest sums, are prevailed
on by the single obligation of an oath to perform their duties with
inviolable honesty. And as, in other states, a man is rarely found whose
hands are pure from public robbery; so, among the Romans, it is no less
rare to discover one that is tainted with this crime. But all things are
subject to decay and change. This is a truth so evident, and so
demonstrated by the perpetual and the necessary force of nature, that it
needs no other proof."
> God creates Adam and Eve so dumb
> that they listen to and obey a serpent in a tree, an obvious villain to
> anyone with a brain, and then God just carelessly allows them to follow
> their stupid choices and condemn themselves and all of future humanity.
> Why would a loving Creator create such dumb beings and then let them do
> something with such horrible results and far reaching consequences? Do
> these people ever think about anything they read?
>
> The story is as ridiculous, simplistic and banal as the president of
> America allowing two teenagers the free choice to come to a military
> base and press a button that will launch a missile and start a world
> wide nuclear war. And yet Christian fundys accept and believe these
> stories without question, just because priests and preachers started
> calling the Bible the "word of God".
> Unbelievable.
--
Doug
The Doctor
Another fool posts supposition without proof.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nl2k.ab.ca
Ici doc...@nl2k.ab.ca God, Queen and country! Beware Anti-Christ rising!
Never Satan President Republic!
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. -Eric Hoffer
Von Hosearrest
"Andrew W" <removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:h29tah$aco$1...@news.motzarella.org...
> Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
>
>
Your surname sounds Jewish....so this is why you hate the Bible?
gabriel
: Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
:
: Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright implausible.
:
: The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
: individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of future
: humanity to an endless torture in hell.
You continue to pass off things that are not true as your
strawman argument, then argue against it.
People don't go to hell for sinning - they go to hell for
refusing to be forgiven - refusing to repent - refusing to "do
better" as you put it in other posts, in spite of having whatever
length of life they were given to do so.
God will save every single person that repents.
2 Peter 3:9 KJVR
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing
that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The problem is most will not repent, some by calling God's Word
ridiculous, simplistic and banal.
: God creates Adam and Eve so dumb that they listen to and obey a serpent in a
: tree, an obvious villain to anyone with a brain,
And yet you listen to a woman who claims to have personally
spoken with Jesus Christ in the 1960's rather than those that
walked alongside Jesus Christ.
: and then God just
: carelessly allows them to follow their stupid choices and condemn themselves
: and all of future humanity.
We have free will - just like God allows you to continue to
blindly follow a woman who claims she spoke with Jesus Christ in
the 1960's.
: Why would a loving Creator create such dumb beings and then let them do
: something with such horrible results and far reaching consequences?
Because he wants people with free will to choose him, not robots
who are brainwashed into having no choice on the matter.
: Do these people ever think about anything they read?
Good question. Why would anyone believe a woman who spoke with
Jesus Christ in the 1960's like you do? Don't these people ever
think about God's Word? You'd think they'd read the Bible and
what Jesus said to those he walked with and taught while He was
here.
:
: The story is as ridiculous, simplistic and banal as the president of America
: allowing two teenagers the free choice to come to a military base and press
: a button that will launch a missile and start a world wide nuclear war.
: And yet Christian fundys accept and believe these stories without
: question, just because priests and preachers started calling the Bible the
: "word of God".
: Unbelievable.
Far less unbelievable than that people believe they evolved from
populations of fish, or that a woman who claims she personally
spoke with Jesus Christ, and what He told her contradicts much of
what's in the Bible.
gabriel
: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:17:17 +1000, "Andrew W"
: <removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote in article
: <h29tah$aco$1...@news.motzarella.org>:
:
: > Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
: >
: > Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright
: > implausible.
: >
: > The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
: > individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of future
: > humanity to an endless torture in hell.
:
: Only a gullible, uninformed person would say such a thing. There is not a
: hint about "endless torture in hell" in the book of Genesis! Hell was not
: one of the things God created. Actually the idea of unending infernal
: torments was invented by pagan rulers of ancient Rome. It was introduced
: into Christian doctrine by some of the early church fathers, from their
: pagan past, and merged with the teachings of the New Testament.
Christ said more about hell than He said about heaven.
:
: Livy, an ancient historian, says Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome,
Doug
wrote in article <0kti45hguda9gjmdo...@4ax.com>:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:29:00 -0500, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
> : On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:17:17 +1000, "Andrew W" :
> <removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote in article :
> <h29tah$aco$1...@news.motzarella.org>: :
> : > Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories. : >
> : > Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright : >
> implausible.
> : >
> : > The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
> : > individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of
> future : > humanity to an endless torture in hell. :
> : Only a gullible, uninformed person would say such a thing. There is
> not a : hint about "endless torture in hell" in the book of Genesis!
> Hell was not : one of the things God created. Actually the idea of
> unending infernal : torments was invented by pagan rulers of ancient
> Rome. It was introduced : into Christian doctrine by some of the early
> church fathers, from their : pagan past, and merged with the teachings
> of the New Testament.
>
> Christ said more about hell than He said about heaven.
Scripture says everything, in heaven and earth, was created in six days.
If some place for the unending informal torment of the souls of those who
God created exists, it must have been created in those 6 days, but there
is no mention of such a place in the creation account of Genesis 1. And
God declared everything he had made as "good." In none of the 6 days was
such a place created by God.
In the KJV Bible the word translated "hell" in usually "sheol" in the OT,
(grave) and "Gehenna" in the NT. "Gehenna" occurs in the following
scriptures: Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark
9:43, 9:45, 9:47, Luke 12:5, and James 3:6. Gehenna was a valley near
Jerusalem, that was used as a garbage dump in the time of Jesus.
The translators of the KJV were influenced by church tradition, and by
ancient superstition, and they interpreted "Gehenna" as referring to a
place of torment of the souls of the wicked.
Easton's Bible Dictionary says:
Gehenna: (originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of
Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the
idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2
Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards
became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the
dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were
cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time
became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense
it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33;
Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6,
the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing
"Gehenna" in the margin.
The imagery of the references to Gehenna by Jesus is based not on Jewish
tradition, but on the history of the valley of Hinnom in the Bible, and
the words of the prophets. He used Gehenna to represent the condition of
persons who do not qualify for the kingdom of God, the holy city of the
saints.
The valley of Hinnom or Gehenna was a literal place, and for one to be
cast into it, meant being rejected from the holy city, which is a figure
of the kingdom of God, and the church in the New Testament. And so the
references to Gehenna in the gospel accounts apply to Christians, as a
warning, about being rejected from the kingdom. John wrote, in Revelation
22:4-5, "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have
right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
Whenever Gehenna is mentioned in the New Testament, there is no mention
of Satan, or torment. There are references to worms that don't die, and
fire that cannot be quenched, but nothing about souls suffering torment.
These are based on the prophecy of Isaiah 66:24. Note that a worm or
maggot usually does not die, but turns into a fly!
Jesus emphasized seeking the kingdom of God, and his righteousness,
[Matthew 6:33] and not being cast, out as unfit for the kingdom. He
particularly warned against false doctrines, and false teachers.
Jesus makes a distinction between death, and being cast into Gehenna, as
Gehenna was a symbol for the fate of those who are declared unfit for the
kingdom of God. The Jews who heard him preach, and saw his miracles, and
yet rejected him, are to be are raised up in the judgment with the people
of Nineveh, and of Sodom.
Jesus called Jews "the children of the kingdom" [Matthew 8:12] and warned
they would be "cast out into outer darkness" where "there shall be
weeping and gnashing of teeth." This was not necessarily their ultimate
fate, though, as Paul shows in Romans 11:23, "And they also, if they
abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to
graft them in again."
When Jesus said, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aionios)
fire" [Matthew 25:41], what fire is everlasting? Is it a literal fire?
The "unquenchable" nature of that fire proves it is not. All literal
fires go out.
Similarly, the "fire that shall never be quenched" of Mark 9:45 cannot be
a literal fire, as all literal fires eventually cease. This fire,
however, will apparently never cease.
Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not
pass away." This saying occurs in Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, and Luke
21:33.
Jesus said, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it
be already kindled?" He referred to the metaphorical fire of his word,
which was "already kindled" because his word had already been revealed,
by the prophets!
Jeremiah wrote, "Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like
a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" [Jeremiah 23:29]
Taking these scriptures together, it seems that God's word is the only
"fire" that will never be quenched. And so, God's word is the "fire" that
figuratively burns those who are cast into Gehenna! Thus, the "fire" of
Matthew 5:21-22 and Matthew 25:41 is a metaphor of God's word, which
consumes all the false ideas about death, hades, the afterlife, infernal
torment, etc.
In Jeremiah 7:31 God declares, about the burning of infants in Tophet,
"in the valley of the son of Hinnom" (the fires of Molech), that such a
thing had not entered his mind. Why do many think that in fact, God
intends an even more sinister fate for most of humanity? Why say that God
not only send the souls of men into a fiery hell, but prolongs their
torment forever? That is quite revolting to any normal, sane person!
Whether one is Muslim, Jew, or Christian, it would be wise to get rid of
the old superstition of unending infernal torment of unbelievers, as it
is clearly blasphemous. Cut it off, like the hand that offends! Pluck it
out, like the eye that offends, and causes people to miss out on entering
God's kingdom! I doubt that Jesus meant a literal hand or a literal eye.
But the "eye" of the mind, if infected with belief in the infernal
torment of unbelievers, is blinded to the true nature of God, and the
gospel. God promised Abraham that in his seed all nations will be
blessed! That is incompatible with the idea of unending infernal torment.
Consider the things that according to Jesus, in Matthew 25:40-47,
disqualify people from entering into life:
(1) not feeding a hungry person
(2) not giving a drink to a thirsty person
(3) not taking in a stranger
(4) not giving clothes to someone who was naked
(5) not visiting those who were sick, or in prison
Here are the things that Jesus said can result in one being thrown into
Gehenna:
(1) calling your brother a fool
(2) not plucking out your eye, when it causes you to stumble
(3) not cutting off your right hand, when it causes you to stumble
(4) hypocrisy
(5) having an unruly tongue
If being thrown into Gehenna means "everlasting" infernal torment, does
the punishment seem fair, and just? To me, it does not. But I suggest,
that is not what Jesus meant. Instead, when Jesus referred to Gehenna, it
was symbolic of being declared unfit for the kingdom of God. "Jerusalem,"
for Jesus, represented the church, his bride, and his kingdom, the holy
city of the saints. Jesus referred to Jerusalem as "the city of the great
King," Matthew 5:35. It is the "Jerusalem which is above," and "the
mother of us all," in Galatians 4:26. It is "the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem," and "the general assembly and church of the
firstborn," in Hebrews 12:22-23. The valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, was
where people in the earthly Jerusalem disposed of their refuse. So
Gehenna pictures the sorry fate of those who are rejected from the
kingdom of God, and does not allude to some place of infernal torment.
Jesus gave many warnings, that we should seek to avoid being rejected
from his kingdom.
One can be cast aside spiritually, and be outside of the kingdom of the
saints, in this present life, even when one is involved in the visible
church. This condition is portrayed by the Gentiles who occupy the outer
court of the temple in Revelation 11:2. The flaws that are listed above,
that can get a person thrown into Gehenna, depict sins against the spirit
of Christ.
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/OP/About_Gehenna.html
>
> :
--
Doug
bob young
gabriel wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:17:17 +1000, "Andrew W"
> <removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>
> : Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
> :
> : Genesis for a start is incredibly reckless, silly and downright implausible.
> :
> : The story of Adam and Eve is the one where God carelessly allows two
> : individuals to consign themselves to death, plus condemn *all* of future
> : humanity to an endless torture in hell.
>
> You continue to pass off things that are not true as your
> strawman argument, then argue against it.
>
> People don't go to hell for sinning - they go to hell for
> refusing to be forgiven - refusing to repent - refusing to "do
> better" as you put it in other posts, in spite of having whatever
> length of life they were given to do so.
>
> God will save every single person that repents.
Primitive nonsense
Andrew W
My surname is not Jewish and I do not hate the Bible.
What I do dislike though is the Bible being misused and used as an idol.
What I also dislike is fundy Christians using the Bible to spread negativity
and doom, and promoting separation (us and them) instead of unity.
gabriel
<removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
: Von Hosearrest wrote:
: > "Andrew W" <removethi...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
: > news:h29tah$aco$1...@news.motzarella.org...
: >> Fundy Christians can't see the lunacy of the Bible stories.
: >>
: >>
: >
: > Your surname sounds Jewish....so this is why you hate the Bible?
: >
:
: My surname is not Jewish and I do not hate the Bible.
: What I do dislike though is the Bible being misused and used as an idol.
: What I also dislike is fundy Christians using the Bible to spread negativity
: and doom, and promoting separation (us and them) instead of unity.
Jesus said,
Matthew 12:30 KJVR
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth
not with me scattereth abroad.
Luke 12:51-53 KJVR
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you,
Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided,
three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son
against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the
daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her
daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in
law.
gabriel
: On Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:21:30 -0400, gabriel <gabriel...@hotmail.com>
:
No, Hell was a place *prepared*.
Matthew 25:41 KJVR
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
and his angels:
And in like manner, Christ indicated he would "prepare" a place
for those who would join Him in heaven:
John 14:2 KJVR
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I
would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Same Greek word:
hetoimazo
het-oy-mad'-zo
From G2092; to prepare: - prepare, provide, make ready.
It was prepared after the fact of creation.
: In the KJV Bible the word translated "hell" in usually "sheol" in the OT,
In spite of all these speculations, what Christ says contradicts
them all.
Luke 12:4-5 KJVR
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill
the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which
after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say
unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 10:28 KJVR
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to
kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell.
Matthew 5:29-30 KJVR
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members
should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into
hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members
should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into
hell.
Matthew 11:22-24 KJVR
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and
Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be
brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been
done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained
until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the
land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Matthew 23:33 KJVR
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the
damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43-48 KJVR
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for
thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into
hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for
thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast
into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for
thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having
two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Luke 10:14-15 KJVR
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the
judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be
thrust down to hell.
Luke 16:22-28 KJVR
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by
the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was
buried;
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and
seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and
cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime
receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but
now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf
fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou
wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest
they also come into this place of torment.