http://blog.inetg.net/ For the Christians, and those who believe in that 'Christian' rhetoric: Your book, 1 John, 3 Chapter Verses 7-11 (KJV)
7. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
In Plain Modern English
7. It is SIMPLE, do not let someone try to tell you differently: anyone that does good is good just like God himself. 8. Anyone that does things which they know is wrong is of the devil; because the devil has been the opposite of good ever since the beginning. SATAN means adversary, or against something. Because of this, the truth that shows everyone what is right and wrong is seen by everyone, so that everyone has a chance to destroy the devil. 9. Anybody that is born of God does not sin; because the seed of God remains in the person who is born of God. 10. Because of this simple concept, the things which people do are seen by everyone. Whoever does things which are not good is not of God, neither is anyone who hates another. 11. This is the same old babble you have always heard, you should love everyone because love is good, and good is God.
Commentary
One can easily make a deep philosophical dialog regarding the definitions of many words. However, let us break down each thought and through deduction bring forth the obvious.
I will begin with one basic belief that does not require a belief of gods, spirits, and witchcraft. The belief that everyone knows 'good' from 'bad', or 'right' from 'wrong'. At first glance one would say that is not accurate because right and wrong is subjective. The subjectiveness of right and wrong is irrelevant. If you do something wrong you know it. Unless I am insane, and actually do hear voices in my head, or I am the only one who knows right and wrong.
What is right? What is wrong? What is good? What is bad? Let us again use deduction. Is vanilla ice cream good? You know this answer. Does a cat feal good when it lays down in warm sunshine? Ah, it seems everyone does know what is good and what is not. What kind of man would beg for a knife for which he will use to castrate himself? Why don't you do this? Seems if one did not know good from bad all sorts of things would happen. One might just jump out of a fast moving vehicle during mid conversation. Obviously one must know what is good and what isn't. Again I could ask if we had no idea then how could we form laws for people to be governed by. It seems at the very least someone must have this skill. Maybe only Federal and World Court Judges know right from wrong.
There is no need in breaking down the 'how old must a baby be before it is ok to abort'. If one were to attempt to write down 'good' they would be writing all day. Simply because of its 'subjectiveness'. In regards to, 'Is it ok for two people of the same sex to marry?' or 'How old must a baby be before it is considered not bad to perform an abortion?' Come on... why are we even asking such a question? I always tell people, rather than waste our time debating if something is right or wrong, or good or bad let us first define what is right and wrong. Alas, we approach the fundamental problem! If we have no definition then why waste our time making laws? Of course any wise person knows why these questions are asked. One fundamental reason is the innate desire that humans want to know the truth. Why do you think you have scientists? People scour their planet everyday for more knowledge. Like a moth flying to a porch light man inevitably will be drawn to the light. He will always continue until his answers are satisfied.
Through deduction we can now say we have a clear definition of good and bad, right and wrong. If using such an elementary definition of good and bad how would one of those Christian verses look?
Perhaps all that nonsense the Christians parrot about Jesus saving them from their sins was true after all. I am curious though, if Jesus saved people from their sins, then why is there so much sinning? Oh and for those not familiar with that silly religious word sin here is the definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin defined: Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
Sin is just a word with a religious spin on it that means wrong, against some god. Christians claim their God is good, according to their book. They even claim he is love. I think often the confusion lies somewhere in that definition. It seems God is just something one worships. In essence the atheist may just well have a god of 'I don't believe in God'. Ones belief in god or not is irrelevant. God is just a title, rather an adjective. To say one does not believe in God would be similar to saying 'I don't believe in president.'
In conclusion, I gather that God, the ONE ALL TIME GOD of ALL, the ONE - would be the very definition of GOOD. Suppose one were to actually do good regardless of the cost to themselves? Seems that if one was 'born of God' that would be the status of an individual. Furthermore, it seems that that one would be as GOD.
> http://blog.inetg.net/ > For the Christians, and those who believe in that 'Christian' rhetoric: > Your book, 1 John, 3 Chapter Verses 7-11 (KJV)
> 7. > Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness > is righteous, even as he is righteous. > 8. > He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from > the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that > he might destroy the works of the devil. > 9. > Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth > in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. > 10. > In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the > devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he > that loveth not his brother. > 11. > For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we > should love one another.
> In Plain Modern English
> 7. > It is SIMPLE, do not let someone try to tell you differently: anyone > that does good is good just like God himself. > 8. > Anyone that does things which they know is wrong is of the devil; > because the devil has been the opposite of good ever since the > beginning. SATAN means adversary, or against something. Because of > this, the truth that shows everyone what is right and wrong is seen > by everyone, so that everyone has a chance to destroy the devil. > 9. > Anybody that is born of God does not sin; because the seed of God > remains in the person who is born of God. > 10. > Because of this simple concept, the things which people do are seen > by everyone. Whoever does things which are not good is not of God, > neither is anyone who hates another. > 11. > This is the same old babble you have always heard, you should love > everyone because love is good, and good is God.
> Commentary
> One can easily make a deep philosophical dialog regarding the definitions > of many words. However, let us break down each thought and through > deduction bring forth the obvious.
> I will begin with one basic belief that does not require a belief of gods, > spirits, and witchcraft. The belief that everyone knows 'good' from 'bad', > or 'right' from 'wrong'. At first glance one would say that is not > accurate because right and wrong is subjective.
Wrong. The words you quote were sent to people of God who had gained knowledge of truth from God thereby knowing right from wrong by "objective" principle.
The subjectiveness of
> right and wrong is irrelevant. If you do something wrong you know it. > Unless I am insane, and actually do hear voices in my head, or I am the > only one who knows right and wrong.
No person can know right from wrong according tot he higher principles of God unless they have been taught these by God.
> What is right? What is wrong? What is good? What is bad? Let us again use > deduction. Is vanilla ice cream good? You know this answer. Does a cat > feal good when it lays down in warm sunshine? Ah, it seems everyone does > know what is good and what is not. What kind of man would beg for a knife > for which he will use to castrate himself? Why don't you do this? Seems if > one did not know good from bad all sorts of things would happen. One might > just jump out of a fast moving vehicle during mid conversation. Obviously > one must know what is good and what isn't. Again I could ask if we had no > idea then how could we form laws for people to be governed by. It seems at > the very least someone must have this skill. Maybe only Federal and World > Court Judges know right from wrong.
> There is no need in breaking down the 'how old must a baby be before it is > ok to abort'. If one were to attempt to write down 'good' they would be > writing all day. Simply because of its 'subjectiveness'. In regards to, > 'Is it ok for two people of the same sex to marry?' or 'How old must a > baby be before it is considered not bad to perform an abortion?' Come > on... why are we even asking such a question? I always tell people, rather > than waste our time debating if something is right or wrong, or good or > bad let us first define what is right and wrong. Alas, we approach the > fundamental problem! If we have no definition then why waste our time > making laws? Of course any wise person knows why these questions are > asked. One fundamental reason is the innate desire that humans want to > know the truth. Why do you think you have scientists? People scour their > planet everyday for more knowledge. Like a moth flying to a porch light > man inevitably will be drawn to the light. He will always continue until > his answers are satisfied.
> Through deduction we can now say we have a clear definition of good and > bad, right and wrong. If using such an elementary definition of good and > bad how would one of those Christian verses look?
> Perhaps all that nonsense the Christians parrot about Jesus saving them > from their sins was true after all. I am curious though, if Jesus saved > people from their sins, then why is there so much sinning? Oh and for > those not familiar with that silly religious word sin here is the > definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin > defined: Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly > wrong.
> Sin is just a word with a religious spin on it that means wrong, against > some god. Christians claim their God is good, according to their book. > They even claim he is love. I think often the confusion lies somewhere in > that definition. It seems God is just something one worships. In essence > the atheist may just well have a god of 'I don't believe in God'. Ones > belief in god or not is irrelevant. God is just a title, rather an > adjective. To say one does not believe in God would be similar to saying > 'I don't believe in president.'
> In conclusion, I gather that God, the ONE ALL TIME GOD of ALL, the ONE - > would be the very definition of GOOD. Suppose one were to actually do good > regardless of the cost to themselves? Seems that if one was 'born of God' > that would be the status of an individual. Furthermore, it seems that that > one would be as GOD.
> Jim Reynolds > blog at inetg dot net
By not knowing God you cannot possibly speak truth about God. Very simple logic and reasoning.
Why did you include this website? It is simply a repeat of what you have posted here!
> One can easily make a deep philosophical dialog regarding the definitions > of many words. However, let us break down each thought and through > deduction bring forth the obvious.
Why would you want to do this?
> I will begin with one basic belief that does not require a belief of gods, > spirits, and witchcraft. The belief that everyone knows 'good' from 'bad', > or 'right' from 'wrong'. At first glance one would say that is not > accurate because right and wrong is subjective. The subjectiveness of > right and wrong is irrelevant. If you do something wrong you know it. > Unless I am insane, and actually do hear voices in my head, or I am the > only one who knows right and wrong.
Not so! No human is born with ANY knowledge. Everything you "know" has been taught to you.
<>< much diatribe snipped ><>
> Perhaps all that nonsense the Christians parrot about Jesus saving them > from their sins was true after all. I am curious though, if Jesus saved > people from their sins, then why is there so much sinning? Oh and for > those not familiar with that silly religious word sin here is the > definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin > defined: Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly
Without God's Word ( the Hopy Bible ) NO ONE would even know right and wrong, as it IS God who laid down the LAW in the first place.
And "SIN" is the transgression of God's LAW!
Is not going to "church" regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong? I don't think so, But it is a sin as it breraks God's LAW.
<>< more diatribe snipped ><>
> In conclusion, I gather that God, the ONE ALL TIME GOD of ALL, the ONE - > would be the very definition of GOOD. Suppose one were to actually do good > regardless of the cost to themselves? Seems that if one was 'born of God' > that would be the status of an individual. Furthermore, it seems that that > one would be as GOD.
Jim Reynolds, you sound like an ex-pat Mormon! You, by your own admission are not a believer.
Why are you posting in a "Christian" news group?
What is your REAL motive, as it appears to me that you are not here to learn?
Or are you simply playing at being satan's advocate?
> http://blog.inetg.net/ > For the Christians, and those who believe in that 'Christian' rhetoric: > Your book, 1 John, 3 Chapter Verses 7-11 (KJV)
> 7. > Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness > is righteous, even as he is righteous. > 8. > He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from > the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that > he might destroy the works of the devil. > 9. > Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth > in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. > 10. > In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the > devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he > that loveth not his brother. > 11. > For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we > should love one another.
> In Plain Modern English
> 7. > It is SIMPLE, do not let someone try to tell you differently: anyone > that does good is good just like God himself. > 8. > Anyone that does things which they know is wrong is of the devil; > because the devil has been the opposite of good ever since the > beginning. SATAN means adversary, or against something. Because of > this, the truth that shows everyone what is right and wrong is seen > by everyone, so that everyone has a chance to destroy the devil. > 9. > Anybody that is born of God does not sin; because the seed of God > remains in the person who is born of God. > 10. > Because of this simple concept, the things which people do are seen > by everyone. Whoever does things which are not good is not of God, > neither is anyone who hates another. > 11. > This is the same old babble you have always heard, you should love > everyone because love is good, and good is God.
> Commentary
> One can easily make a deep philosophical dialog regarding the definitions > of many words. However, let us break down each thought and through > deduction bring forth the obvious.
> I will begin with one basic belief that does not require a belief of gods, > spirits, and witchcraft. The belief that everyone knows 'good' from 'bad', > or 'right' from 'wrong'. At first glance one would say that is not > accurate because right and wrong is subjective. The subjectiveness of > right and wrong is irrelevant. If you do something wrong you know it. > Unless I am insane, and actually do hear voices in my head, or I am the > only one who knows right and wrong.
There are two kinds of people who consistently commit senseless "sinful" acts: Psychopaths, and Sociopaths. A psychopath is insane and knows no difference between "right" and "wrong". A sociopath knows the difference, but just doesn't care. People, in essence, are all one of the two. With out God to convict our hearts of sinful acts, we would all be Sociopaths.
> What is right? What is wrong? What is good? What is bad? Let us again use > deduction. Is vanilla ice cream good? You know this answer. Does a cat > feal good when it lays down in warm sunshine? Ah, it seems everyone does > know what is good and what is not. What kind of man would beg for a knife > for which he will use to castrate himself? Why don't you do this? Seems if > one did not know good from bad all sorts of things would happen. One might > just jump out of a fast moving vehicle during mid conversation. Obviously > one must know what is good and what isn't. Again I could ask if we had no > idea then how could we form laws for people to be governed by. It seems at > the very least someone must have this skill. Maybe only Federal and World > Court Judges know right from wrong.
The knowledge of right and wrong comes from God's Law. (Ever heard of the Ten Commandments) ANY sin committed today can be attributed to the breaking of one of those commandments. Example: A man embezzles from his company: THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Murder: THOU SHALT NOT KILL A person who is absorbed in himself, his money, and possessions: THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. A husband or wife has an affair: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY. A child takes a cookie and eats it before dinnertime when he has been told many times not to do so: HONOR AND OBEY THY FATHER AND MOTHER. I think you can get the point.
> There is no need in breaking down the 'how old must a baby be before it is > ok to abort'.
Abortion = MURDER. Life begins as soon as the sperm enters the egg. From the first live cell, it is a child, with a soul.
If one were to attempt to write down 'good' they would be
> writing all day. Simply because of its 'subjectiveness'. In regards to, > 'Is it ok for two people of the same sex to marry?'
SODOMY = SIN The Bible clearly states this in the book of Romans.
or 'How old must a
> baby be before it is considered not bad to perform an abortion?' Come > on... why are we even asking such a question? I always tell people, rather > than waste our time debating if something is right or wrong, or good or > bad let us first define what is right and wrong. Alas, we approach the > fundamental problem! If we have no definition then why waste our time > making laws? Of course any wise person knows why these questions are > asked. One fundamental reason is the innate desire that humans want to > know the truth. Why do you think you have scientists? People scour their > planet everyday for more knowledge. Like a moth flying to a porch light > man inevitably will be drawn to the light. He will always continue until > his answers are satisfied.
All of our nation's laws were originally built based upon the Ten Commandments. The laws that are being made today are Man's laws because this nation, and its leaders are turning their backs on God, the Bible, and the Ten Commandments.
> Through deduction we can now say we have a clear definition of good and > bad, right and wrong. If using such an elementary definition of good and > bad how would one of those Christian verses look?
> Perhaps all that nonsense the Christians parrot about Jesus saving them > from their sins was true after all. I am curious though, if Jesus saved > people from their sins, then why is there so much sinning?
Jesus died to take the PENALTY of sin so we could go to Heaven after we die. "For the wages of sin is death." (That means eternal death...i.e. in Hell) He did not die to stop sin from existing. As long as Satan is in this world, there will ALWAYS be sin.
Oh and for
> those not familiar with that silly religious word sin here is the > definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin > defined: Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly > wrong.
> Sin is just a word with a religious spin on it that means wrong, against > some god. Christians claim their God is good, according to their book. > They even claim he is love. I think often the confusion lies somewhere in > that definition. It seems God is just something one worships. In essence > the atheist may just well have a god of 'I don't believe in God'. Ones > belief in god or not is irrelevant. God is just a title, rather an > adjective. To say one does not believe in God would be similar to saying > 'I don't believe in president.'
God is love. We cannot attempt to logically break Him down and understand all that He is. The human mind cannot comprehend a being that is 100% omnipotent, omnipresent, and exists as 3 entities but is still only ONE God. (Trinity = God the Father, God the Son {Jesus}, and God the Holy Spirit) The Bible says that we have to come to God with the faith of a child: Just accept Him for who and what He is without trying to have a technical analysis of his existence and capabilities.
> In conclusion, I gather that God, the ONE ALL TIME GOD of ALL, the ONE - > would be the very definition of GOOD. Suppose one were to actually do good > regardless of the cost to themselves? Seems that if one was 'born of God' > that would be the status of an individual. Furthermore, it seems that that > one would be as GOD.
God is the definition of GOOD. He is the perfect example of all righteousness. It is a level of righteousness that no human being can obtain. Since we are human, it is our nature to sin. As I said earlier, we would sin constantly and without remorse if it weren't for God convicting our hearts of our sin. A person "born of God" is a metaphor for being born of God spiritually. No person does good for no reason. They do good because they want a reward. The reward could be recognition, money, or, in Christians' case, to please God. When I manage to abstain from sin, I know that I have pleased God, and being in God's favor is the best place to be in all existence. When I do sin, I know by the conviction in my heart that I have hurt Him, and my soul aches because of it. I have to ask his forgiveness and try my best not to do it again, regardless of the temptation. However, doing good will NOT grant you salvation. Salvation is a FREE GIFT. You have to accept it. After you accept it, you must have a personal relationship with God, therefore making the desire to do good in His sight. If there is no relationship, then you have not truly accepted it, you have not surrendered your all to Him, and therefore there is no salvation. From reading what you posted, I can tell that you need some serious guidance regarding the Christian faith. You should seek the counsel of a church pastor or deacon (any denomination you desire: Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.) to help you see the Light. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one cometh unto the Father except by Him. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End; the great "I Am"; King of
...
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:59:46 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>The knowledge of right and wrong comes from God's Law. (Ever heard of the >Ten Commandments)
Most people have heard of the ten commandments of the bible. Very, very few people know what they are.
>ANY sin committed today can be attributed to the breaking >of one of those commandments. Example: A man embezzles from his company: >THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Murder: THOU SHALT NOT KILL A person who is >absorbed in himself, his money, and possessions: THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY >OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. A husband or wife has an affair: THOU SHALT NOT >COMMIT ADULTERY. A child takes a cookie and eats it before dinnertime when >he has been told many times not to do so: HONOR AND OBEY THY FATHER AND >MOTHER.
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:59:46 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> > wrote:
> >The knowledge of right and wrong comes from God's Law. (Ever heard of the > >Ten Commandments)
> Most people have heard of the ten commandments of the bible. Very, very > few people know what they are.
> >ANY sin committed today can be attributed to the breaking > >of one of those commandments. Example: A man embezzles from his company: > >THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Murder: THOU SHALT NOT KILL A person who is > >absorbed in himself, his money, and possessions: THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY > >OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. A husband or wife has an affair: THOU SHALT NOT > >COMMIT ADULTERY. A child takes a cookie and eats it before dinnertime when > >he has been told many times not to do so: HONOR AND OBEY THY FATHER AND > >MOTHER.
Yes. The only problem with the 10 commandments is, the if you manage to adhere to them you will be so insufferably proud of yourself, that you will surely go to hell. It's called the "curse of the law".
Pastor Frank
THE COMMANDMENTS THE LORD GAVE MOSES on Mount Sinai to the Israelites. See Lev 34. Lev. 9 "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. 15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. 16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. 18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible. 20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. 21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless. 22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. 27 "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads." Lev 21: 9 " 'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"
Nevertheless, the point is, God DID say, "Honor and obey thy Father and Mother" Even if it isn't one of the "actual ten", as you say, it is still something God commanded us all to do.
Jonathan
"Stephen Poley" <sbpoleySpicedHamT...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:59:46 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> > wrote:
>>The knowledge of right and wrong comes from God's Law. (Ever heard of the >>Ten Commandments)
> Most people have heard of the ten commandments of the bible. Very, very > few people know what they are.
>>ANY sin committed today can be attributed to the breaking >>of one of those commandments. Example: A man embezzles from his company: >>THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Murder: THOU SHALT NOT KILL A person who is >>absorbed in himself, his money, and possessions: THOU SHALT NOT HAVE ANY >>OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. A husband or wife has an affair: THOU SHALT NOT >>COMMIT ADULTERY. A child takes a cookie and eats it before dinnertime >>when >>he has been told many times not to do so: HONOR AND OBEY THY FATHER AND >>MOTHER.
>> >The knowledge of right and wrong comes from God's Law. (Ever heard of > the >> >Ten Commandments)
>> Most people have heard of the ten commandments of the bible. Very, very >> few people know what they are.
>> >ANY sin committed today can be attributed to the breaking >> >of one of those commandments. Example: A man embezzles from his > company: >> >THOU SHALT NOT STEAL. Murder: THOU SHALT NOT KILL A person who is >> >absorbed in himself, his money, and possessions: THOU SHALT NOT HAVE >> >ANY >> >OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. A husband or wife has an affair: THOU SHALT NOT >> >COMMIT ADULTERY. A child takes a cookie and eats it before dinnertime > when >> >he has been told many times not to do so: HONOR AND OBEY THY FATHER AND >> >MOTHER.
> Yes. The only problem with the 10 commandments is, the if you manage to > adhere to them you will be so insufferably proud of yourself, that you > will > surely go to hell. It's called the "curse of the law".
> Pastor Frank
> THE COMMANDMENTS THE LORD GAVE MOSES > on Mount Sinai to the Israelites. See Lev 34.
Leviticus 34? Leviticus only has 27 chapters.... It's Leviticus 20:9-27
> Lev. 9 "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He > has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own > head. > 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife > of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to > death. > 11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his > father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will > be on their own heads. > 12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be > put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on > their own heads. > 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them > have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will > be > on their own heads. > 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both > he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be > among > you. > 15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to > death, and you must kill the animal. > 16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with > it, > kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood > will be on their own heads. > 17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father > or > his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be > cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and > will be held responsible. > 18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has > sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she > has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. > 19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your > mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of > you > would be held responsible. > 20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They > will be held responsible; they will die childless. > 21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; > he > has dishonored his brother. They will be childless. > 22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land > where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. > 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am > going > to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred > them. > 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to > you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD > your God, who has set you apart from the nations. > 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean > animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by > any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I > have set apart as unclean for you. > 26 You are to be holy to me [3] because I, the LORD , am holy, and I > have set you apart from the nations to be my own. > 27 "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be > put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own > heads." > Lev 21: 9 " 'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a > prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. > Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "When men strive together one with another, and > the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the > hand > of him that smiteth him and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the > secrets: Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her"
"K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message <news:q92Yc.6145$LH6.513768@twister.southeast.rr.com>... > Nevertheless, the point is, God DID say, "Honor and obey thy Father and > Mother" Even if it isn't one of the "actual ten", as you say, it is still > something God commanded us all to do.
> Jonathan
If you are a Christian, then you should follow the commandments listed by Jesus. There are only six:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
So you see, you can forget all about the Old Testament--Jesus did. Jesus ignored all that guff about keeping the Sabbath, dietary rules, not speaking the name of God, and idolatry. Jesus rejected Moses's rules about stoning sinners and divorce. Jesus was not a Jew.
And not being a Jew, Jesus's message is not of the Jewish Old Testament. Jesus spurned the Old Testament examples of murder, incest, and pillaging. Jesus called the Old Testament promoters vipers, liars, and sons of satan. He hated them and warned his followers against following them. Everything Jesus said and did during his short life was the antithesis of the profane teachings of the Old Testament.
So Christians should shun Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, and Genesis, and Exodus, and all the rest of the Old Testament horror tales--they are all nonsense and nonChristian. Christianity is the opposite of Old Testament teachings.
The Old Testament is specifically for historical purposes. Now, the teachings and principles regarding the values and ethics still remain the same. i.e. We still should remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy, but we won't be put to death for working on the Sabbath, which was the penalty during the Old Testament. Also, we should definitely not have any other gods or idols before God. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man commeth unto the Father except by Me." So the first priority in our lives should always be Him. Otherwise, we are committing idolatry and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. In short, since Jesus died for our sins, the PENALTIES no longer apply. He paid the penalty for us all with His death. Sin is still sin, regardless of what year we are in, and we should try our best to abstain from it. But, since Jesus knew that no human can be perfect, He died so that we no longer have to be concerned with being put to death or having to sacrifice an animal on an altar for breaking a commandment.
Jonathan
"Leonard Pardin" <leopp...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
> "K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> wrote in message > <news:q92Yc.6145$LH6.513768@twister.southeast.rr.com>... >> Nevertheless, the point is, God DID say, "Honor and obey thy Father and >> Mother" Even if it isn't one of the "actual ten", as you say, it is >> still >> something God commanded us all to do.
>> Jonathan
> If you are a Christian, then you should follow the commandments > listed by Jesus. There are only six:
> Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, > what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? > Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is > none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, > keep the commandments. > Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no > murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou > shalt not bear false witness, > Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy > neighbour as thyself.
> So you see, you can forget all about the Old Testament--Jesus did. > Jesus ignored all that guff about keeping the Sabbath, dietary rules, > not speaking the name of God, and idolatry. Jesus rejected Moses's > rules about stoning sinners and divorce. Jesus was not a Jew.
> And not being a Jew, Jesus's message is not of the Jewish Old > Testament. Jesus spurned the Old Testament examples of murder, incest, > and pillaging. Jesus called the Old Testament promoters vipers, liars, > and sons of satan. He hated them and warned his followers against > following them. Everything Jesus said and did during his short life > was the antithesis of the profane teachings of the Old Testament.
> So Christians should shun Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, and Genesis, > and Exodus, and all the rest of the Old Testament horror tales--they > are all nonsense and nonChristian. Christianity is the opposite of Old > Testament teachings.
The Old Testament is specifically for mythical purposes. That's all it is: a book of myths. Archeologists have searched the entire region from Iraq to Egypt over the last 70 years. They have uncovered incredible details of the lives and history of the ancients, discovered indisputable evidence of ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Akkadian, and Assyrian laws, customs and civilizations. They confirmed details of the governments occupying the Middle East along with evidence of great armies of Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Akkadians, Hurrians, and Greeks sweeping the area of Syria-Palestine. They have translated ancient writings from the Phoenicians, the Greeks, the Indians, the Hurrians, and the Moabites. But they have found nothing to support the existence of any great kingdom of Israel. No records of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish civilization can be found.
And the famous Biblical Patriarchs? Not a sign of them. Not a sign of Moses, or Noah, or Solomon, or any of the Hebrew heroes. The Isrelites did not sojourn to Egypt, did not escape from Pharoah's chariots, did not conquer Jericho or any other city in Canaan. David did not kill Goliath, Noah did not build an ark, and Moses was not left in the bulrushes. Those stories are, in fact, slightly twisted ancient tales from Babylon and Assyria, from epics like Gilgamesh and the recorded annals of ancient Assyrian kings. The Old Testament, The Torah, is a book of myths, copied and compiled sometime after the birth of Christianity
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:59:46 GMT, "K-town" <jdu52...@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
>"Jim Reynolds" <b...@inetg.net> wrote in message >Abortion = MURDER. Life begins as soon as the sperm enters the egg. From >the first live cell, it is a child, with a soul.
Really? How do you arrive at this conclusion? Is it somewhere in the bible, or have you arbitrarily declared it so?
> The Old Testament is specifically for mythical purposes. That's > all it is: a book of myths. Archeologists have searched the entire > region from Iraq to Egypt over the last 70 years. They have uncovered > incredible details of the lives and history of the ancients, > discovered indisputable evidence of ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, > Akkadian, and Assyrian laws, customs and civilizations. They > confirmed details of the governments occupying the Middle East along > with evidence of great armies of Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, > Akkadians, Hurrians, and Greeks sweeping the area of Syria-Palestine. > They have translated ancient writings from the Phoenicians, the > Greeks, the Indians, the Hurrians, and the Moabites. But they have > found nothing to support the existence of any great kingdom of Israel. > No records of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish > civilization can be found.
> And the famous Biblical Patriarchs? Not a sign of them. Not a sign > of Moses, or Noah, or Solomon, or any of the Hebrew heroes. The > Isrelites did not sojourn to Egypt, did not escape from Pharoah's > chariots, did not conquer Jericho or any other city in Canaan. David > did not kill Goliath, Noah did not build an ark, and Moses was not > left in the bulrushes. Those stories are, in fact, slightly twisted > ancient tales from Babylon and Assyria, from epics like Gilgamesh and > the recorded annals of ancient Assyrian kings. The Old Testament, The > Torah, is a book of myths, copied and compiled sometime after the > birth of Christianity
Undoubtedly as a consequence of man's sinful nature, God said that he had to speak to the prophets in riddles (Numbers 12:6-8). So it's not surprising to consider that the OT contains allegorical writings. (Likewise, it's not surprising that Jesus was known to speak in parables.) In fact, not only did the prophecies fortelling of the 1st coming of Jesus go right over the heads of the Pharisees of Jesus' time, but Luke 24:44-45 shows that Jesus even had to open the minds of his apostles to the Scriptures.
Jesus' Holy Spirit now opens our minds to the Scriptures (John 16:12-15) but only if we invite the Spirit to do so. But if you resist the Spirit's guidance then you are no better off than 1 Corinthians 1:18-19.
Indeed, return to God, believing in his Son Jesus in faith and have eternal life.
> Why did you include this website? > It is simply a repeat of what you have posted here!
> > One can easily make a deep philosophical dialog regarding the definitions > > of many words. However, let us break down each thought and through > > deduction bring forth the obvious.
> Why would you want to do this?
> > I will begin with one basic belief that does not require a belief of gods, > > spirits, and witchcraft. The belief that everyone knows 'good' from 'bad', > > or 'right' from 'wrong'. At first glance one would say that is not > > accurate because right and wrong is subjective. The subjectiveness of > > right and wrong is irrelevant. If you do something wrong you know it. > > Unless I am insane, and actually do hear voices in my head, or I am the > > only one who knows right and wrong.
> Not so! No human is born with ANY knowledge. > Everything you "know" has been taught to you.
> <>< much diatribe snipped ><>
> > Perhaps all that nonsense the Christians parrot about Jesus saving them > > from their sins was true after all. I am curious though, if Jesus saved > > people from their sins, then why is there so much sinning? Oh and for > > those not familiar with that silly religious word sin here is the > > definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin > > defined: Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly
> Without God's Word ( the Hopy Bible ) NO ONE would even know > right and wrong, as it IS God who laid down the LAW in the first place.
That is not quite true. Actually we all are born with a measure of empathy, and knowing good from evil. It's called original sin, -meaning being opinionated and judgmental. But we think ourselves smart and superior, when we are able to lawyer ourselves into doing, if not also self-justifying doing the opposite to others, from what we expect them to do unto us. Christ came to save us (from ourselves).
Pastor Frank
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST **Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. **31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. **Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
> > For the Christians, and those who believe in that 'Christian' rhetoric: > > Your book, 1 John, 3 Chapter Verses 7-11 (KJV)
> Why Bother?
Yes. Why ARE you posting to Christian NGs? You obviously have no interest in the subject, do you?
Pastor Frank
troll (trol) verb To post a message in a newsgroup or other online conference in the hopes that somebody else will consider the original message so outrageous that it demands a heated reply. A classic example of a troll is to post an article in favor of torturing cats in a pet lovers' newsgroup.
> > Nevertheless, the point is, God DID say, "Honor and obey thy Father and > > Mother" Even if it isn't one of the "actual ten", as you say, it is still > > something God commanded us all to do.
> If you are a Christian, then you should follow the commandments > listed by Jesus. There are only six: > Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, > what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? > Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is > none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, > keep the commandments. > Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no > murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou > shalt not bear false witness, > Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy > neighbour as thyself. > So you see, you can forget all about the Old Testament--Jesus did. > Jesus ignored all that guff about keeping the Sabbath, dietary rules, > not speaking the name of God, and idolatry. Jesus rejected Moses's > rules about stoning sinners and divorce. Jesus was not a Jew. > And not being a Jew, Jesus's message is not of the Jewish Old > Testament. Jesus spurned the Old Testament examples of murder, incest, > and pillaging. Jesus called the Old Testament promoters vipers, liars, > and sons of satan. He hated them and warned his followers against > following them. Everything Jesus said and did during his short life > was the antithesis of the profane teachings of the Old Testament. > So Christians should shun Leviticus, and Deuteronomy, and Genesis, > and Exodus, and all the rest of the Old Testament horror tales--they > are all nonsense and nonChristian. Christianity is the opposite of Old > Testament teachings.
Yet, there are many, especially the USA Bible belt, who want to be both Jew AND Christian. They just ignore unfashionable passages. There are atheists who are quite good at spoofing that kind of believer and write comical parody in the name of "True Christians®" under the slogan "All the Bible All the Way". See below sample:
Pastor Frank
TRUE CHRISTIAN® DOCTRINE REGARDING WARFARE
10.AFTER CONQUERING A CITY, IF YOU FIND A DECENT LOOKING WOMAN UNDER ONE OF THOSE BEE KEEPER OUTFITS, MAKE HER YOUR SLAVE.
Deuteronomy 20:13-14 "And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself". Numbers 31:7-9 "And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. . . . And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods".
9.THOUGH INCONVENIENT, WHEN KILLING THE PEOPLE, BE SURE TO NOT TO HURT THEIR TREES ('CAUSE THAT WOULD BE WASTEFUL).
Deuteronomy 20:19 "When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayeth eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege".
8.DON'T STOP WITH KILLING THEIR SOLDIERS. RUB IT IN. DIP YOUR FEET IN THEIR BLOOD AND LET YOUR DOGS DRINK IT.
Psalms 68:21-23 "But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea: That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same".
7.DON'T ANONYMOUSLY KILL BIN LADEN AND OMAR IN A BOMBING RAID. AFTER KILLING THEIR FOLLOWERS, PUBLICLY HANG THEM FOR ALL TO SEE.
Joshua 8:26-29 "For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. . . . And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day. And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide".
6.GIVE THEM A TASTE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE. CUT OFF THEIR HANDS AND FEET BEFORE HANGING THEM.
2 Samuel 4:12 "And David commanded his young men, and they slew them, and cut off their hands and their feet, and hanged them up over the pool in Hebron".
5.NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH THE ENEMY. KILL THEM, SHOWING NO MERCY AT ALL.
Deuteronomy 7:2 "And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them".
4.DON'T BE A SISSY. HAVE NO COMPASSION FOR THESE INFIDELS. KILL THEM WHILE THEY'RE PRAYING IN CHURCH. KILL YOUNG AND OLD ALIKE, AND EVEN THOSE TOO FEEBLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
2 Chronicles 36:16-17 "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand".
3.DON'T JUST KILL THE HEATHENS. STEAL THEIR PROPERTY AND GIVE IT TO CHELMSFORD CHRISTIAN CENTRE.
Joshua 6:24 "And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord".
2.DON'T WASTE MONEY ON P.O.W. CAMPS. THROW YOUR CAPTIVES OFF A CLIFF.
2 Chronicles 25:9-12 "And Amaziah said to the man of God, But what shall we do for the hundred talents which I have given to the army of Israel? And the man of God answered, The Lord is able to give thee much more than this. . . . And Amaziah strengthened himself . . . and smote the children of Seir ten thousand. And other ten thousand left alive did the children of Judah carry away captive, and brought them unto the top of the rock, and cast them down from the top of the rock, that they all were broken in pieces".
1.JUST REMEMBER THIS SIMPLE RULE: KILL "EVERYTHING THAT BREATHES" AND DESTROY EVERYTHING IN SIGHT, EXCEPT LITTLE GIRLS THAT IS. THOSE YOU KEEP ALIVE FOR YOUR OWN PLEASURE.
Deuteronomy 20:16 "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth". 1 Samuel 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city [of nonbelievers] with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword". Joshua 10:29-30 "And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jerico. Then Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, unto Libnah, and fought against Libnah: And the Lord delivered it also, and the king thereof, into the hand of Israel: and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it". 1 Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass". Moses in Numbers 31:17-18 "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, that hath known man by lying with him. But all the female children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourself".
Perhaps you could sift through the propaganda for me and present the relevant scripture that explicitly states "from the first live cell, it is a child, with a soul."
> > The Old Testament is specifically for mythical purposes. That's > > all it is: a book of myths. Archeologists have searched the entire > > region from Iraq to Egypt over the last 70 years. They have uncovered > > incredible details of the lives and history of the ancients, > > discovered indisputable evidence of ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, > > Akkadian, and Assyrian laws, customs and civilizations. They > > confirmed details of the governments occupying the Middle East along > > with evidence of great armies of Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, > > Akkadians, Hurrians, and Greeks sweeping the area of Syria-Palestine. > > They have translated ancient writings from the Phoenicians, the > > Greeks, the Indians, the Hurrians, and the Moabites. But they have > > found nothing to support the existence of any great kingdom of Israel. > > No records of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish > > civilization can be found.
> > And the famous Biblical Patriarchs? Not a sign of them. Not a sign > > of Moses, or Noah, or Solomon, or any of the Hebrew heroes. The > > Isrelites did not sojourn to Egypt, did not escape from Pharoah's > > chariots, did not conquer Jericho or any other city in Canaan. David > > did not kill Goliath, Noah did not build an ark, and Moses was not > > left in the bulrushes. Those stories are, in fact, slightly twisted > > ancient tales from Babylon and Assyria, from epics like Gilgamesh and > > the recorded annals of ancient Assyrian kings. The Old Testament, The > > Torah, is a book of myths, copied and compiled sometime after the > > birth of Christianity
> Undoubtedly as a consequence of man's sinful nature, God said that he > had to speak to the prophets in riddles (Numbers 12:6-8). So it's not > surprising to consider that the OT contains allegorical writings.
Look at the gory tales shown by the excerpts quoted by another poster in this thread--they are hardly "allegorical." The Old Testament depicts a deity that drinks blood, condones child murder, rape, incest, and mass slaughter of men, women, and even animals. If anyone can accept that monstrous ogre as the God of Jesus, something is terribly wrong. Christianity cannot survive such contradictions in morality and righteousness. A religion without a consistent creed will eventually fail in its mission. And who can doubt Christianity is missing the mark today.
> (Likewise, it's not surprising that Jesus was known to speak in > parables.) In fact, not only did the prophecies fortelling of the 1st > coming of Jesus go right over the heads of the Pharisees of Jesus' time, > but Luke 24:44-45 shows that Jesus even had to open the minds of his > apostles to the Scriptures.
Jesus did not open the minds of his followers to be filled with the sewage of the Old Testament. Jesus warned his followers not to follow the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the preachers of that very dogma found in the Old Testament. Jesus rejected the Old Testament mythology.
> Jesus' Holy Spirit now opens our minds to the Scriptures (John 16:12-15) > but only if we invite the Spirit to do so. But if you resist the > Spirit's guidance then you are no better off than 1 Corinthians 1:18-19.
> Indeed, return to God, believing in his Son Jesus in faith and have > eternal life.
> M. Clark
One cannot truly believe in Jesus, cannot follow Jesus's gentle admonitions, cannot walk in the path of Jesus, and at the same time accept the notion that the great God that sent the sinless Jesus was the same demon that ordered Moses, Joshua, Saul, and David to slaughter every living thing in the conquered Canaanite villages. Can one turn the other cheek while at the same praying that God will inflict on our enemies disease, locust, frogs, and the death of their first born, as the demon Yahweh is supposed to have visited on the innocent Egyptians?
Even if the Old Testament can be considered "allegorical," the lessons to be learned from such examples are the antitheses of everything Jesus taught, everything Jesus stood for, everything Jesus died for.
The Old Testament is the albatross around the neck of Christianity. Like that ancient mariner, let us all to pray to God that the Christian Churches of the world will break the cord holding that putrid and smelly corpse and let it fall into the sea of eternity, never to harm Christians again.
> Perhaps you could sift through the propaganda for me and present the > relevant scripture that explicitly states "from the first live cell, > it is a child, with a soul."
I doubt you'll find that exact phrase, "from the first live cell, it is a child, with a soul," but let's look at this logically & Biblically at the same time: God is the author of human life. It is He that gave each human a soul. Now, this part is scientific & medical fact: When the male sperm cell enters the female egg cell and is fertilized, the cell now has 46 chromosomes, just like every cell in the human body. Provided the mother's uterus is a hospitable environment, the egg cell will divide into 16 cells before moving into the uterus and begin the process of developing into a human baby. If the first cell was not alive, it could not divide, and therefore not develop into anything. (Every science book I read in school said that the "chain" of living things begins at single-celled organisms. i.e. An amoeba is a single-celled organism. Is it a living thing? Of course!) Menstruation is what occurs when an egg cell is not fertilized. It moves to the uterus as a dead, unfertilized cell, and is "flushed" out of her uterus. Now, assuming the fertilized egg makes it to the uterus, it WILL develop into a living, breathing, human baby. Going back to the Biblical part, since God gave each human a soul, and He knows that this "egg-cell" WILL eventually develop into a baby, why should he wait until it is in the third trimester, or until birth before giving it a soul? (Read Job 31:15, Psalm 139:13-16, Isaiah 49:1, and most importantly, Jeremiah 1:5 - they're all cited in that link) Do I know for an absolute 100% fact that God gives that single, 46-chromosome cell a soul? I can't say that God specifically told me that. But, as I said before, why would he wait until later? He knows it is going to develop into a human baby. Who is to say that a soul cannot fit inside of a single cell? I'll tell you what, though: Regarding the exact time when the baby-to-be receives his/her soul, when I go to Heaven, I'll ask God when I see Him. If you happen to be there, you can ask Him too. ;-)
> > > The Old Testament is specifically for mythical purposes. That's > > > all it is: a book of myths. Archeologists have searched the entire > > > region from Iraq to Egypt over the last 70 years. They have uncovered > > > incredible details of the lives and history of the ancients, > > > discovered indisputable evidence of ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, > > > Akkadian, and Assyrian laws, customs and civilizations. They > > > confirmed details of the governments occupying the Middle East along > > > with evidence of great armies of Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, > > > Akkadians, Hurrians, and Greeks sweeping the area of Syria-Palestine. > > > They have translated ancient writings from the Phoenicians, the > > > Greeks, the Indians, the Hurrians, and the Moabites. But they have > > > found nothing to support the existence of any great kingdom of Israel. > > > No records of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish > > > civilization can be found.
> > > And the famous Biblical Patriarchs? Not a sign of them. Not a sign > > > of Moses, or Noah, or Solomon, or any of the Hebrew heroes. The > > > Isrelites did not sojourn to Egypt, did not escape from Pharoah's > > > chariots, did not conquer Jericho or any other city in Canaan. David > > > did not kill Goliath, Noah did not build an ark, and Moses was not > > > left in the bulrushes. Those stories are, in fact, slightly twisted > > > ancient tales from Babylon and Assyria, from epics like Gilgamesh and > > > the recorded annals of ancient Assyrian kings. The Old Testament, The > > > Torah, is a book of myths, copied and compiled sometime after the > > > birth of Christianity
> > Undoubtedly as a consequence of man's sinful nature, God said that he > > had to speak to the prophets in riddles (Numbers 12:6-8). So it's not > > surprising to consider that the OT contains allegorical writings.
> Look at the gory tales shown by the excerpts quoted by another > poster in this thread--they are hardly "allegorical." The Old
Where are you coming from?
Galatians 4:24, Hebrews 11:19 and Revelation 11:18 all indicate that certain writings in the Scriptures are allegorical.
That's some really "objective" research into Christianity that you're doing Mr. Pardin.
> Testament depicts a deity that drinks blood, condones child murder, > rape, incest, and mass slaughter of men, women, and even animals. If > anyone can accept that monstrous ogre as the God of Jesus, something > is terribly wrong. Christianity cannot survive such contradictions in > morality and righteousness. A religion without a consistent creed will > eventually fail in its mission. And who can doubt Christianity is > missing the mark today.
> > (Likewise, it's not surprising that Jesus was known to speak in > > parables.) In fact, not only did the prophecies fortelling of the 1st > > coming of Jesus go right over the heads of the Pharisees of Jesus' time, > > but Luke 24:44-45 shows that Jesus even had to open the minds of his > > apostles to the Scriptures.
> Jesus did not open the minds of his followers to be filled with the > sewage of the Old Testament. Jesus warned his followers not to follow > the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the preachers of that very dogma > found in the Old Testament. Jesus rejected the Old Testament > mythology.
> > Jesus' Holy Spirit now opens our minds to the Scriptures (John 16:12-15) > > but only if we invite the Spirit to do so. But if you resist the > > Spirit's guidance then you are no better off than 1 Corinthians 1:18-19.
> > Indeed, return to God, believing in his Son Jesus in faith and have > > eternal life.
> > M. Clark
> One cannot truly believe in Jesus, cannot follow Jesus's gentle > admonitions, cannot walk in the path of Jesus, and at the same time > accept the notion that the great God that sent the sinless Jesus was > the same demon that ordered Moses, Joshua, Saul, and David to > slaughter every living thing in the conquered Canaanite villages. Can > one turn the other cheek while at the same praying that God will > inflict on our enemies disease, locust, frogs, and the death of their > first born, as the demon Yahweh is supposed to have visited on the > innocent Egyptians?
> Even if the Old Testament can be considered "allegorical," the > lessons to be learned from such examples are the antitheses of > everything Jesus taught, everything Jesus stood for, everything Jesus > died for.
> The Old Testament is the albatross around the neck of Christianity. > Like that ancient mariner, let us all to pray to God that the > Christian Churches of the world will break the cord holding that > putrid and smelly corpse and let it fall into the sea of eternity, > never to harm Christians again.
>> Perhaps you could sift through the propaganda for me and present the >> relevant scripture that explicitly states "from the first live cell, >> it is a child, with a soul."
>I doubt you'll find that exact phrase, "from the first live cell, it is a >child, with a soul," but let's look at this logically & Biblically at the >same time: God is the author of human life. It is He that gave each human >a soul. Now, this part is scientific & medical fact: When the male sperm >cell enters the female egg cell and is fertilized, the cell now has 46 >chromosomes, just like every cell in the human body. Provided the mother's >uterus is a hospitable environment, the egg cell will divide into 16 cells >before moving into the uterus and begin the process of developing into a >human baby. If the first cell was not alive, it could not divide, and >therefore not develop into anything. (Every science book I read in school >said that the "chain" of living things begins at single-celled organisms. >i.e. An amoeba is a single-celled organism. Is it a living thing? Of >course!) Menstruation is what occurs when an egg cell is not fertilized. It >moves to the uterus as a dead, unfertilized cell, and is "flushed" out of >her uterus. Now, assuming the fertilized egg makes it to the uterus, it >WILL develop into a living, breathing, human baby.
Assuming XYZ conditions (becoming fertilized, etc.), an ovum will develop into a living, breathing, human baby also. Isn't it kind of arbitrary to wait until fertilization to claim it has a 'soul'?
>Going back to the >Biblical part, since God gave each human a soul, and He knows that this >"egg-cell" WILL eventually develop into a baby,
...if xyz conditions are met...
>why should he wait until it >is in the third trimester, or until birth before giving it a soul?
Why wait until fertilization? Maybe all eggs and sperm have souls too...?
> (Read >Job 31:15, Psalm 139:13-16, Isaiah 49:1, and most importantly, Jeremiah >1:5 - they're all cited in that link) Do I know for an absolute 100% fact >that God gives that single, 46-chromosome cell a soul?
Well... since you're religious, we probably shouldn't 'go there' about what you know for a fact or not... i.e. that any supernatural event (even one!) or being has ever occurred or existed.
>I can't say that God >specifically told me that. But, as I said before, why would he wait until >later? He knows it is going to develop into a human baby. Who is to say >that a soul cannot fit inside of a single cell? I'll tell you what, though: >Regarding the exact time when the baby-to-be receives his/her soul, when I >go to Heaven, I'll ask God when I see Him. If you happen to be there, you >can ask Him too. ;-)
> Jesus did not open the minds of his followers to be filled with the > sewage of the Old Testament. Jesus warned his followers not to follow > the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the preachers of that very dogma > found in the Old Testament.
Matt. 5:17..."Do not think that I have come to abolish Torah or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them... Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven...."
Jesus would fulfill what he regards as sewage?
> Jesus rejected the Old Testament > mythology.
Luke 4:17.... "The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to [Jesus]. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 'The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has annointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.' Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down.... he began by saying to them, 'Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.'"
Jesus would reject that which explains him?
> Even if the Old Testament can be considered "allegorical," the > lessons to be learned from such examples are the antitheses of > everything Jesus taught, everything Jesus stood for, everything Jesus > died for.
Without the old testament, Jesus' death would be a meaningless, silly thing.
Silly for a king to be born in Bethlehem Silly for a man to be "pierced for our transgressions" Silly for a savior to fulfill and quote endless passages of prophets and prophecies that never existed, that were myths....
> The Old Testament is the albatross around the neck of Christianity. > Like that ancient mariner, let us all to pray to God that the > Christian Churches of the world will break the cord holding that > putrid and smelly corpse and let it fall into the sea of eternity, > never to harm Christians again.
"Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." (quoted from that "albatross")
> found nothing to support the existence of any great kingdom of Israel. > No records of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish > civilization can be found.
The great thing about such a sweeping statement as "they have found nothing", is that I only have to show 1 thing they have found to falsify that statement. Saves me time. So here it is.... if you care to check any secular source, you will find that Merneptah was the Egyptian king who succeeded Ramses II. During his reign, he recorded on a stele that 'Israel is laid waste and his seed is not'. The stele was dated c. 1207 BC. This is one of the oldest secular references to Israel. Not much evidence, to be sure, but much more than "no record of any significant Jewish country or any viable Jewish civilization". There is evidence of the historical accuracy of the Old Testament, and sweeping generalizations to the contrary don't hold up.
There is, however, less evidence that directly contradicts the biblical record. And some evidence that was previously thought to contradict biblical accounts has been laid to rest by more recent discoveries. For example, in Luke 3:1, he says "In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius.... Lysanias [was] tetrarch of Abilene". For a time, Luke's accuracy was questioned because the only record of a Lysanias, was one who ruled in Chalcis in 40 BC, before Tiberius' time and in another location. Later, however, an inscription dating to the time of Tiberius was found which names "Lysanias of Abila", consistent with Luke's account.
