Re[2]: Brown Velvet x Hetero Beige
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Really From: "SANDRA MACEACHERN" <SANDRA_MACEACHERN<at>comcheq.ca>
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Great knowledge of genes!!
What about ebony?
Is it a distribution gene?
I love these things!!
Christine, curious about the distribution of genes and colours..
*************
I would like to know more about Ebony as well since it seems that our
"charcoal"
(what he was sold to us as) boy, Anubis, may be a hetero ebony (?). He
looks
like a black velvet from the top (shiny black) and his tummy is
charcoal(ish) -
kind of a charcoal gray to dark red-brown.
Any thoughts, anyone?
Happy Chinnin'!
Sandra
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Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>Two flies in one hit <grin>
Indeed I consider ebony as a distribution trait. But beware I also think
that there are two alleles that take care of the distribution of
pigment. Those alleles do not share the same locus. I personally refer
to them as the A-pair and E-pair (Thank you Jim Jensen).
In the A-pair reside the genes that take care of the standard, velvet
and white distribution pattern. The E-pair controls the distribution of
pigment on the belly... and that's the ebony trait. So in short I think
it's possible to have a combination (cross if you like) with ebony in a
homozygous state with white and/or velvet in a heterozygous state (since
white or velvet is lethal, but white and velvet not). Exciting thought
ain't it? Well I guess some large chinowners (Carole maybe?) are
experimenting with these ideas. But they keep it secret as hell <grin>
O.K. Charcoal... I've two theories.
1 Charcoal is the same as ebony
Since ebony is a cummulative recessive gene, could it be that charcoal
is the beginning stadium of a ebony gene? In other words a good charcoal
is a bad hetero ebony. You know the more ebony in the parents the lesser
the kits will look like a charcoal.... Still haven't a adequate answer
to this theory but for all "charcoal" owners out there read the other
theory of mine carefully....
2 Charcoal is different from ebony
Charcoal is always refered to as an recessive gene and that means you'll
always must have at least two charcoal carriers (you don't see the
charcoal in them since it's recessive) to breed charcoals. Furthermore I
think that if charcoal excists it recides in the A-pair. I do also think
that most people who think they own a charcoal have nothing more (or
less) than a hetero ebony <OUCH>. I came to this conclusion by the
breeding results of many "charcoal" owners.... the breeding results
didn't match the recessive theory, but they do match the ebonies
characteristics. Go figure. So if charcoal indeed is different from
ebony than it sure is a very rare mutation, I even think more rare than
sapphire.
I think this is a bit more worth than a lousy 2 cents <grin>. Well I do
get my kicks out of this thread, Oh boy. First time I've gone so far in
revealing my thoughts...
Sander
B.T.W. Not that many great knowledge of genes, I owe some people on the
clarification of some terms.
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Hello Sandra,
Oh, gee! There goes my much anticipated plans of asking you to please, please send me a picture of your charcoal. I honestly am not kidding. This elusive recessive is a color that I have had a lot of interest in for quite some time. In the early months of chin ownership, I thought that it was a color entirely of its own; however, in more recent months, because I cannot get any clear cut answers about it, I have begun to wonder, like you, if it is only a hetero ebony by another name... especially as hetero ebonies are a very deep charcoal color.
A few months ago, I contacted a very well respected breeder for information about charcoals, with the intention of adopting a pair if their answers were satisfactory. Not only did they not have the answers I was looking for, but contrary to what I thought, they did not even have any available from within their own stock and offered to contact another well-known breeder help me acquire two. Because the other breeder was also someone that I was familiar with, who I knew was also having trouble with answering what exactly a charcoal chin is, I declined any help with obtaining the chins for adoption.
To make bad matters worse, in the September 1997, MCBA newsletter the following article appeared, which was written by the very person the first breeder had offered to get the charcoal chins for me from, Chris Woods of Whitewoods Chinchilla Ranch. Here is the article in its entirety, just as it appeared in the newsletter:
Mutation Notes:
Comments on an article - Bowens Ebonies
by Chris Woods
In an article on Ebonies that I ran in January I made the comment that I had "heard" things that were not in agreement with the article. After receiving a letter from Gary Neubauer I realized that I should have gone into more detail about the confusion in my mind between what I had heard about Ebonies?
I am in total agreement with the article that the lighter shades of Charcoal/Ebony are the pelts that are in demand in the fur market. The dark or homo have never been in demand that I have ever heard of other than in the making of Teddy Bears. The homo is used as a breeding tool to create the hetero that is needed for the fur market.
My confusion is with the Charcoal - Ebony - Busse - Tascos?? A number of years ago I mentioned to a large rather successful rancher that I liked his Charcoals. At that time he rather pointedly advised me that he had Ebonies and not Charcoals! I admitted it then and I will admit it now - I have no clue what the difference is. At one point in time I was told that the Ebony was a blue-black. Now I hear they can be a Mahogany color and still be an Ebony? The article also tells us the belly stripe can be as dark as the grotzen? And a homo Ebony can have a break in the veiling, lighter sides?
Any ranchers out there who know the difference between all these grey bellied critters please educate us. Is it possible to tell the difference by phenotype? Do we need to breed a dark bellied animal to know which color we are breeding? If there is an old timer (or even a new rancher), that knows something about genetics - HELP !?!?
This is the end of the article... again, exactly as it was written.
I know from experience that ranchers do breed hetero ebonies to black velvets in order to obtain a darker chin... our own Champy, who took Reserve Male Champion of Show at the October 1996 MCBA Claiming Show in Mansfield, Ohio, is such a chin. However, when the Ryerson Chinchilla Ranch sold him to us, they only classified him as a hetero ebony. But, like your chin, his black velvet parent... which I also know exists because we were given his lineage... is quite obvious in his coloring.
Furthermore, we also adopted another hetero ebony chin, Junyur, at that same time from another much lesser known MCBA rancher, whose lineage card showed his parents as being an ebony and an ebony-charcoal carrier. There is no distinction made between the ebony colors of hetero or homo (phenotype)... nor was one made for Champy's one ebony parent. Although black velvet is not indicated in Junyur's lineage at at all, he also has the coloring of a black velvet/hetero ebony cross.
Additionally, when we bred Junyur to our homo (phenotype) ebony, Onyx, their last litter consisted of one baby that is identical in appearance to a definite black velvet/hetero ebony cross, like Champy. On the other hand, their (Junyur and Onyx's) other baby is more of what I would have envisioned either a "pure" hetero ebony or charcoal to be, as she was void of any black coloring on her face, back, and lower forequarters or hindquarters... which is so indicative of a black velvet. Therefore, it appears to me that this baby did not inherit the black velvet gene that I have always suspected her father of carrying. By the way, Champy and Sofee's...a homo ebony (phenotype)... only hetero ebony baby, to date, obviously inherited her father's black velvet gene because she was colored just like him.
So... basically the questions of whether or not Junyur is a charcoal carrier as his breeder indicated or whether he does somehow carry a black velvet gene as both his appearance indicates and I suspect, are two questions that I have not been able to answer to my complete satisfaction. Because I basically consider the probable answer of yes to both questions as being answered primarily through misinformation or speculation at this point.
Furthermore, Anjela Ross of Crystal Chinchillas England has a small amount of charcoal and ebony genetics information on her web page. To me, the most important information she provides is that charcoals and ebonies have been bred together so much, that there is not a very clear distinction, in England, between the two any longer. Perhaps, if charcoal ever was truly a separate gene from ebony, then that is also the case in the U.S. My original question remains... is, or was, charcoal a separate genetic color from hetero ebony.
Also, I am not sure if it holds true anymore, however, an ebony chin with any sign of a mahogany hue used to be very undesirable.
At any rate, I have done nothing to really answer your question, Sandra; however, thank you (and ChinMail) for letting me discuss a subject of tremendous interest to me. Also, I hope my posting will help to encourage everyone else to jump in and share their own experiences with and opinions about charcoal and/or ebony genes... especially as the MCBA has yet to have a follow-up to their article of September 1997.
In finally closing, I sincerely hope you can make heads (blunt or pointy <g>) or tails out of what I wrote.
Chinniest Wishes,
Tammy
Chinchillas From the Hart
MCBA Member
4ha...@inlink.com
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Really From: Christine Bauer <bauer<at>ti.et-inf.uni-siegen.de>
>
> Two flies in one hit <grin>
>
> Indeed I consider ebony as a distribution trait. But beware I also think
> that there are two alleles that take care of the distribution of
> pigment. Those alleles do not share the same locus. I personally refer
> to them as the A-pair and E-pair (Thank you Jim Jensen).
>
> In the A-pair reside the genes that take care of the standard, velvet
> and white distribution pattern.
doesnt this mean, that if you cross two whtie/black cosses, there are no
kids, that are standard?
everey gene exists two times, and if one is white and one velvet, there
is no standard distribution gene left.
Has anyone ever bred two black/white cross?
Were there standard kids?
> The E-pair controls the distribution of
> pigment on the belly... and that's the ebony trait. So in short I think
> it's possible to have a combination (cross if you like) with ebony in a
> homozygous state with white and/or velvet in a heterozygous state (since
> white or velvet is lethal, but white and velvet not). Exciting thought
> ain't it? Well I guess some large chinowners (Carole maybe?) are
> experimenting with these ideas. But they keep it secret as hell <grin>
I would like to see some of this colors.
>
> O.K. Charcoal... I've two theories.
>
> 1 Charcoal is the same as ebony
>
> Since ebony is a cummulative recessive gene, could it be that charcoal
> is the beginning stadium of a ebony gene? In other words a good charcoal
> is a bad hetero ebony. You know the more ebony in the parents the lesser
> the kits will look like a charcoal.... Still haven't a adequate answer
> to this theory but for all "charcoal" owners out there read the other
> theory of mine carefully....
>
> 2 Charcoal is different from ebony
>
> Charcoal is always refered to as an recessive gene and that means you'll
> always must have at least two charcoal carriers (you don't see the
> charcoal in them since it's recessive) to breed charcoals. Furthermore I
> think that if charcoal excists it recides in the A-pair. I do also think
> that most people who think they own a charcoal have nothing more (or
> less) than a hetero ebony <OUCH>. I came to this conclusion by the
> breeding results of many "charcoal" owners.... the breeding results
> didn't match the recessive theory, but they do match the ebonies
> characteristics. Go figure. So if charcoal indeed is different from
> ebony than it sure is a very rare mutation, I even think more rare than
> sapphire.
I think, many of the charcoals are hetero ebony (like my Frikie, but i
bought him as hetero ebony. He has a homo ebony mother and a hetero
beige father. His little brother was beige, seems like hetero beige.
Nothing to see of the ebony gene)
>
> I think this is a bit more worth than a lousy 2 cents <grin>. Well I do
> get my kicks out of this thread, Oh boy. First time I've gone so far in
> revealing my thoughts...
Id like to sort all the genes out.
colors:
black (standard)
brown (beige)
?white?
?violet?
?sapphire?
distribution:
standard (standard)
velvet (BV/brown velvet)
white (?)
?ebony?
Any comments?
>
> Sander
>
> B.T.W. Not that many great knowledge of genes, I owe some people on the
> clarification of some terms.
I think, all the people on chinmail with all their experience in
breeding differnet colors, can figure this out together.
Thanks, chinnie greetings,
Christine, thinking about gettin a violet female (i they werent that
expensive)
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Really From: Christine Bauer <bauer<at>ti.et-inf.uni-siegen.de>
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Zuma wrote:
>
> Yep, you're getting the hang of my theory. One thing I didn't mention
> though. A chin has 63 - 2 X&Y chromosomes that leaves 61 chromosomes
> I've heard somewhere (Lani Ritchie I think). But the velvet and white
> gene don't have to be neccesarily present in each A-pair of each
> chromosome... So if standard is really out of the picture??? I don't
> know. I mean think of the white checked with grey chins....
I donst understand the last sentence.
A language problem?
What does it mean?
> > I think, many of the charcoals are hetero ebony (like my Frikie, but i
> > bought him as hetero ebony. He has a homo ebony mother and a hetero
> > beige father. His little brother was beige, seems like hetero beige.
> > Nothing to see of the ebony gene)
>
> Well the brother of your Frikie must have some ebony in it's body I mean
> homo ebony * hetero ebony gives aleways certainly hetero ebony. So I
> think the brother has the ebony gene unless the mother wasn't a true
> homo ebony at all but just looked like it. This is possible too. A chin
> can be only called homo if she/he has proven himself through
> breeding....
Themother was black all over, and all kids were either hetero ebony or
hetero beige.
Has anyone bred homo ebony to homo beige?
There would be ebony-brown chinnies.
Waht do they look like?
> > Id like to sort all the genes out.
> >
> > colors:
> > black (standard)
>
> has black pigment gene
>
> > brown (beige)
>
> has beige pigment genes
>
> > ?white?
>
> has black pigment genes
Ah!!
Only black genes.
I didnt know, that white is a result of the distribution of the pgments.
Interesting.
>
> > ?violet?
>
> well this is a dilution of pigment trait. I'm not sure which pigment but
> I think it's also black. Cause if there is beige involved the violet
> chin would have red eyes.... (I'm not sure they have red eyes, I believe
> they are black??) There are more pigment mutations than black and Tower
> beige but those are rare and violet isn't...
Doesnt a dilution mean, that there has something happened with the
pigment genes? (mutation)
Then you could say, it is a new color.
>
> > ?sapphire?
>
> I believe again a dilution of pigment trait. Again with black pigment
The dilution must be somewhere in the genes.
New location?
>
> > distribution:
> > standard (standard)
> > velvet (BV/brown velvet)
>
> Well velvet is the distribution trait, the color of pigment makes it a
> brown or black velvet. I mean two black pigment genes is a BV. A beige
> and a black pigment gene would be a brown velvet. Two beige pigment
> genes would make a pastel velvet according to my theory.
I think this theory is very goog. I like it.
>
> > white (?)
>
> Again a distribution trait same, locus as velvet. The pigment makes it a
> white or pinkwhite. I think the lack of presence of the white
> distribution trait in some chromosomes might be the reason of the
> checked animals. Ofcourse there could be a trait that controls the
> checking but I think that isn't the case, cause this should be a
> distribution trait as well and breeding with such animals doesn't really
> suggest this is the case.
>
> > ?ebony?
>
> Also a distribution trait but at a different locus! than velvet and
> white....
And so there are white ebony, velvet ebony...
What do they look like?
>
> > Any comments?
>
> Enough comments for you <grin>?
Thanks, it is such an interesting subject.
>
> Again Sander
>
> (B.T.W. I think violets are not that expensive annymore in Holland...)
How much?
Here are female violets about 500 DM (that is about 300-350 dollars)
Thanks, Im looking forward to the diskussion,
Christine, with 7 chinnies (next week 8?)
NoSpam
>
> Zuma wrote:
> >
> > Two flies in one hit <grin>
> >
> > Indeed I consider ebony as a distribution trait. But beware I also think
> > that there are two alleles that take care of the distribution of
> > pigment. Those alleles do not share the same locus. I personally refer
> > to them as the A-pair and E-pair (Thank you Jim Jensen).
> >
> > In the A-pair reside the genes that take care of the standard, velvet
> > and white distribution pattern.
>
> doesnt this mean, that if you cross two whtie/black cosses, there are no
> kids, that are standard?
> everey gene exists two times, and if one is white and one velvet, there
> is no standard distribution gene left.
Yep, you're getting the hang of my theory. One thing I didn't mention
though. A chin has 63 - 2 X&Y chromosomes that leaves 61 chromosomes
I've heard somewhere (Lani Ritchie I think). But the velvet and white
gene don't have to be neccesarily present in each A-pair of each
chromosome... So if standard is really out of the picture??? I don't
know. I mean think of the white checked with grey chins....
> Has anyone ever bred two black/white cross?
> Were there standard kids?
I would like to know this too <grin>.
> > The E-pair controls the distribution of
> > pigment on the belly... and that's the ebony trait. So in short I think
> > it's possible to have a combination (cross if you like) with ebony in a
> > homozygous state with white and/or velvet in a heterozygous state (since
> > white or velvet is lethal, but white and velvet not). Exciting thought
> > ain't it? Well I guess some large chinowners (Carole maybe?) are
> > experimenting with these ideas. But they keep it secret as hell <grin>
>
> I would like to see some of this colors.
Guess you have to be patient about that, I expressed my feelings too
about willing to see those animals. The answer I got was something like
"patience my dear".
> >
> > O.K. Charcoal... I've two theories.
> >
> > 1 Charcoal is the same as ebony
> >
> > Since ebony is a cummulative recessive gene, could it be that charcoal
> > is the beginning stadium of a ebony gene? In other words a good charcoal
> > is a bad hetero ebony. You know the more ebony in the parents the lesser
> > the kits will look like a charcoal.... Still haven't a adequate answer
> > to this theory but for all "charcoal" owners out there read the other
> > theory of mine carefully....
> >
> > 2 Charcoal is different from ebony
> >
> > Charcoal is always refered to as an recessive gene and that means you'll
> > always must have at least two charcoal carriers (you don't see the
> > charcoal in them since it's recessive) to breed charcoals. Furthermore I
> > think that if charcoal excists it recides in the A-pair. I do also think
> > that most people who think they own a charcoal have nothing more (or
> > less) than a hetero ebony <OUCH>. I came to this conclusion by the
> > breeding results of many "charcoal" owners.... the breeding results
> > didn't match the recessive theory, but they do match the ebonies
> > characteristics. Go figure. So if charcoal indeed is different from
> > ebony than it sure is a very rare mutation, I even think more rare than
> > sapphire.
>
> I think, many of the charcoals are hetero ebony (like my Frikie, but i
> bought him as hetero ebony. He has a homo ebony mother and a hetero
> beige father. His little brother was beige, seems like hetero beige.
> Nothing to see of the ebony gene)
Well the brother of your Frikie must have some ebony in it's body I mean
homo ebony * hetero ebony gives aleways certainly hetero ebony. So I
think the brother has the ebony gene unless the mother wasn't a true
homo ebony at all but just looked like it. This is possible too. A chin
can be only called homo if she/he has proven himself through
breeding....
> > I think this is a bit more worth than a lousy 2 cents <grin>. Well I do
> > get my kicks out of this thread, Oh boy. First time I've gone so far in
> > revealing my thoughts...
>
> Id like to sort all the genes out.
>
> colors:
> black (standard)
has black pigment genes
> brown (beige)
has beige pigment genes
> ?white?
has black pigment genes
> ?violet?
well this is a dilution of pigment trait. I'm not sure which pigment but
I think it's also black. Cause if there is beige involved the violet
chin would have red eyes.... (I'm not sure they have red eyes, I believe
they are black??) There are more pigment mutations than black and Tower
beige but those are rare and violet isn't...
> ?sapphire?
I believe again a dilution of pigment trait. Again with black pigment
> distribution:
> standard (standard)
> velvet (BV/brown velvet)
Well velvet is the distribution trait, the color of pigment makes it a
brown or black velvet. I mean two black pigment genes is a BV. A beige
and a black pigment gene would be a brown velvet. Two beige pigment
genes would make a pastel velvet according to my theory.
> white (?)
Again a distribution trait same, locus as velvet. The pigment makes it a
white or pinkwhite. I think the lack of presence of the white
distribution trait in some chromosomes might be the reason of the
checked animals. Ofcourse there could be a trait that controls the
checking but I think that isn't the case, cause this should be a
distribution trait as well and breeding with such animals doesn't really
suggest this is the case.
> ?ebony?
Also a distribution trait but at a different locus! than velvet and
white....
> Any comments?
Enough comments for you <grin>?
Again Sander
(B.T.W. I think violets are not that expensive annymore in Holland...)
> >
NoSpam
Really From: Chins R ME <ChinsRME<at>aol.com>Tammy...
This extremely confusing subject was hashed out somewhat on the AOL
chinchilla message board.
When we first got into breeding chins for mutation pets, I was under the
impression that an allover, shiny black chin was a homo ebony, a shiny black
chin on top with a char/dark grey belly (but dull in luster) and a touch of
light fur at the "armpits" was a hetero ebony, and an even, dark grey all over
(dull in luster) was a charcoal.
Since then we have had animals born that are different again! Two sisters
(Stumpy and Loretta) are from a grey charcoal carrier female and a charcoal?
male, but are plack as pitch but are not shiny. We are calling the above male
a charcoal, but he does not look like his female offspring.
He (Ernie) is dark/charcoal all over EXCEPT for his face. Almost like a
lighter gray mask around the eyes. I say that he looks like he has
"eyebrows". He has since fathered a male kit who looks exactly like
him...(with another gray/char carrier).
His half-brother, (Bert) is what we are terming a het ebony, with the light
fur at the "armpits". Bert, when bred to a homo ebony, as produced 2 totally
shiny black chins, 1 het? ebony and one all over, dull black chin.
Charcoal???...but no "face mask" like his half-brother Ernie.
Now that you have said that perhaps a true charcoal is hard to come by,
perhaps the "face mask" and "eyebrows" constitute a charcoal??? Anyone I have
ever asked about the "eyebrows" say they don't think they have never seen a
chin with same.
Hope other folks send their comments to make this already confusing subject
even moreso. I will send you a pic of Ernie. You will see the "mask" and
"eyebrows" on his face. Hmmmmmmmm.....
Marge
NoSpam
Really From: John/Tammy Hart <4harts<at>inlink.com>Hello Sander,
Even though nearly all of your message to Christine zoooomed right over my head,
our violet does, indeed, have black eyes. <vbg>
NoSpam
Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>
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suggest to read the genetics page of JIM JENSEN on the chinnet very
thoroughful. It has some very interesting information on alleles which
harbour traits for the fur color....
Sander
B.T.W. Next time I'll start buzzzzzzzzzzzzing <grin>
John/Tammy Hart wrote:
>
> -- Message Sent via ChinMail ---
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Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>
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Christine Bauer wrote:
>
> A language problem?
> What does it mean?
I mean the white mosaic chinnies. I stil don't understand what makes
those white chinnies checked with grey patches. Is it 'cause there is
allele that harbours a checking trait? I personally don't think so. Or
is it that the standard distribution gene isn't that recessive?
> Themother was black all over, and all kids were either hetero ebony or
> hetero beige.
If the mother was a homo ebony than the beige (the brother) must have
some ebony in it's genes. I mean homo ebony * no ebony always gives
hetero ebony... But a black all over chin doesn't have to be a homo
ebony
It also could be a very dark hetero ebony black, then ofcourse it's
possible to get a beige without a ebony gene...
> Has anyone bred homo ebony to homo beige?
Not exactly, but something near that...
> There would be ebony-brown chinnies.
> Waht do they look like?
I've bred a homo ebony black with a homo ebony dark pastel (brown). They
delivered me two homo ebony blacks and one homo ebony light pastel
(looks like a homo beige except allover colored).
> Ah!!
> Only black genes.
> I didnt know, that white is a result of the distribution of the pgments.
> Interesting.
> Doesnt a dilution mean, that there has something happened with the
> pigment genes? (mutation)
> Then you could say, it is a new color.
No that isn't what happens, the pigment genes don't mutate. Another
genepair (allele) makes the pigment look diluted... But those dilution
genes have been mutated (sapphire & violet).
> The dilution must be somewhere in the genes.
> New location?
Yep Jim Jensen called this allele the D-pair...
> And so there are white ebony, velvet ebony...
> What do they look like?
Like whites with some soft black patches shining through the white,
mostly by the tail or on the head I believe...
Greetings,
Sander
B.T.W change the dollars into D-Marks <grin> 300-350 DM for a violet
must be enough for a good violet...
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Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>
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You mentioned charcoal carriers... Mind if I ask you to describe them in
words or do you have by chance a piccie?? Just curious that is...
About the area around the eyes; I looked my hetero ebony female in the
eyes and kept looking, looking, looking <grin>. She indeed has a light
eyebrow... and she's shiny black on her back and nose but dull black on
her sides and tummy. But she's really a ebony carrier (i.e. hetero
ebony) nothing charcoal about her...
About the kits she produced (crossed with a homo ebony black); They 're
more black than her. But the sides kept dull so still hetero ebony in my
mind... A homo ebony should be jet black allover from back to tummy even
in the armpits....Everything else is a hetero ebony. Hetero ebonies
differ so much in coloring, one is almost as dark as a homo and another
can look like a very dark standard.
Most important remark:
As long as the tummy is colored it carries EBONY!!!! This is the trait
why this mutation is called ebony. (Note: a white chinchilla has no
colored belly it's still white...)
I don't believe there is another mutation that makes the belly colored.
So everyone who's calling his chin with a colored belly a charcoal
(which I don't mind) is actually talking about a chin carrying ebony
genes.
I've always understand that a true charcoal looked like a BV except a BV
is jet black and a true charcoal must be dull black. (i.e not colored
belly). Since I haven't found one of those I think charcoal is very
rare.
Sander
Chins R ME wrote:
>
> -- Message Sent via ChinMail ---
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Chinmom
>I mean the white mosaic chinnies. I stil don't understand what makes
>those white chinnies checked with grey patches. Is it 'cause there is
>allele that harbours a checking trait? I personally don't think so. Or
Lani feels that these are spotting genes and that breeders are breeding them
out. She says that chins should have same color patterns as rabbits or horses.
Chinmom
http://users.aol.com/chinmom
Isaiah 53:4
Psalms 22: 17,18
John 19:17-24
NoSpam
What folks around here call a charcoal carrier is a grey animal with a grey
belly. Ours appear to be a standard until you look at the belly.
Your what you term a herteo ebony sounds like Ernie. I DO have a pic of
him, and will send it to you separately. He has the lighter face mask I spoke
of.
As far as there not being another mutation with a colored belly, we have a
homo beige female whose belly is beigeish, an even wrap chocolate, and 2
pastels who have color in their bellies.
Stumpy and Loretta who I mentioned earlier are both solid black, bellies and
all, but are dull in sheen, and are as black as my homo ebonies who are solid
black all over and shiny all over.
Let's see who else jumps in on this one. Of course, we are spealing
phenotype here, what we see when we look at a given animal.
Marge
NoSpam
>
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> Hi, Sander...
>
> What folks around here call a charcoal carrier is a grey animal with a grey
> belly. Ours appear to be a standard until you look at the belly.
>
> Your what you term a herteo ebony sounds like Ernie. I DO have a pic of
> him, and will send it to you separately. He has the lighter face mask I spoke
> of.
>
> As far as there not being another mutation with a colored belly, we have a
> homo beige female whose belly is beigeish, an even wrap chocolate, and 2
> pastels who have color in their bellies.
What do a chocolate look like?
>
> Stumpy and Loretta who I mentioned earlier are both solid black, bellies and
> all, but are dull in sheen, and are as black as my homo ebonies who are solid
> black all over and shiny all over.
>
> Let's see who else jumps in on this one. Of course, we are spealing
> phenotype here, what we see when we look at a given animal.
>
> Marge
Christine
NoSpam
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Chins R ME wrote:
>
> -- Message Sent via ChinMail ---
> -- Post responses to chin...@buffnet4.buffnet.net ---
> Hi, Sander...
>
> What folks around here call a charcoal carrier is a grey animal with a grey
> belly. Ours appear to be a standard until you look at the belly.
>
> Your what you term a herteo ebony sounds like Ernie. I DO have a pic of
> him, and will send it to you separately. He has the lighter face mask I spoke
> of.
>
> As far as there not being another mutation with a colored belly, we have a
> homo beige female whose belly is beigeish, an even wrap chocolate, and 2
> pastels who have color in their bellies.
>
> all, but are dull in sheen, and are as black as my homo ebonies who are solid
> black all over and shiny all over.
>
> Let's see who else jumps in on this one. Of course, we are spealing
> phenotype here, what we see when we look at a given animal.
>
> Marge
Well as far aS I've seen your pictures, all chinnies seems to have a
high quality in color... I agree with you that most chinies seem to be
hetero ebonies, but most seem to be in a very good shape (i.e.
very,very,very dark for a hetero ebony).
Most important remark of mine (which will be reflected in other mails)
is that your chins look like homo ebonies on picture........ I know
that reality has some different looks... But the point of my remark is
that ebony is the same as charcoal....
I mean a good charcoal should be, in my opinion, a bad hetero ebony, but
nevertheless it's still the same genes we 're talking about.
Sander
NoSpam
Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>
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>
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Yeah I know what Lani is getting at..., But I sincerly doubt her
theory....
I mean let's face the facts (If you can prove differently I'll be
happy...) when crossing a whilson white with a standard you'll get a
wilson white, a silver or a mosaic.... I mean in a standard there is
nothing of spotting, in a wilson white there is nothing of spotting. So
why should it a be a gene thing????
In both standard as in wilson white there is no precedence of spotting
genes, so I think the answer of recessive genes is a weak answer....
I've been on a hike for a couple of days, but for all you people out
there I would like to know what you yhink about this spotting, checked
or mosaic business.
I personally think it has something to do with the what gene is more
dominant than the other gene, which gene is more present in all the
chromosomes than the other gene. I mean in the case of a mosaic I can
think of more standard genes than white genes in the "A-pair" or
something like that...
Sander
NoSpam
Really From: Zuma <zuma.is.surfing<at>wxs.nl>
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>
> -- Message Sent via ChinMail ---
> -- Post responses to chin...@buffnet4.buffnet.net ---
> >
> > -- Message Sent via ChinMail ---
> > -- Post responses to chin...@buffnet4.buffnet.net ---
> >
> > What folks around here call a charcoal carrier is a grey animal with a grey
> > belly. Ours appear to be a standard until you look at the belly.
> >
> > Your what you term a herteo ebony sounds like Ernie. I DO have a pic of
> > him, and will send it to you separately. He has the lighter face mask I spoke
> > of.
> >
> > As far as there not being another mutation with a colored belly, we have a
> > homo beige female whose belly is beigeish, an even wrap chocolate, and 2
> > pastels who have color in their bellies.
>
>
> >
> > all, but are dull in sheen, and are as black as my homo ebonies who are solid
> > black all over and shiny all over.
> >
> > Let's see who else jumps in on this one. Of course, we are spealing
> > phenotype here, what we see when we look at a given animal.
> >
> > Marge
>
Well christine, I've heard of TAN, Ebony Brown or even pastel... With
pastel there 're two different colors; dark pastel an light pastel...
To explain chocolat in my own terms: A chocolat is definitely a ebony
brown.... But a ebony brown is not the same as a light pastel.
What I mean to say is that a TAN can be light or dark pastel, a dark
pastel is the same as ebony brown. And a dark pastel or a ebony brown is
the same as a chocalat. But it's a real choacalate when the ebony gene
(the E-pair) is a homozygout state and the pigment genes (B-pair) are in
a heterozygout state; i.e. one pigment gene is black and the other
pigment gene is beige.
Sander
Mimi W. Tzeng
NoSpam (NoSpam...@chinmail.net) wrote:
: I mean let's face the facts (If you can prove differently I'll be
: happy...) when crossing a whilson white with a standard you'll get a
: wilson white, a silver or a mosaic.... I mean in a standard there is
: nothing of spotting, in a wilson white there is nothing of spotting. So
: why should it a be a gene thing????
: In both standard as in wilson white there is no precedence of spotting
: genes, so I think the answer of recessive genes is a weak answer....
: I've been on a hike for a couple of days, but for all you people out
: there I would like to know what you yhink about this spotting, checked
: or mosaic business.
: I personally think it has something to do with the what gene is more
: dominant than the other gene, which gene is more present in all the
: chromosomes than the other gene. I mean in the case of a mosaic I can
: think of more standard genes than white genes in the "A-pair" or
: something like that...
Well, I don't know anything about chinchilla genetics, but here's a
couple of thoughts from general genetics that might help.
Codominance is where two alleles are equally dominant. Instead
of getting one or the other phenotype (when the individual is
heterozygous), you get both phenotypes. You might get patches
of different fur colors.
Incomplete dominance is where you get a phenotype that is
intermediate between the two alleles. For example, if one
allele says red and the other says white, you get a pink
individual.
I was going to post that much earlier, along with an example
of calico cats, but then I realized I don't actually know how
it works in calico cats...
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