Become an iPhone developer in 8 easy steps
David Moyer
Microsystems in his spare time, this Worms-style artillery shooter
blasted to the top of the App Store charts earlier this year and stayed
there for weeks earning its creator $21,000 a day, enough money to pack
in his day job and become a professional developer.
There's no question about it, iPhone has become the people's platform.
While the PC maintains a healthy indie development scene, Apple's
handset, with its low barriers to entry and seamless consumer purchasing
system, is the real rags-to-riches machine. In practically a month, you
can develop an application that will be available to a global market of
enthusiastic downloaders.
Here's what you have to do to be next:
(these have been shortened quite a bit, the full text & graphics of each
step is at the link at the bottom)
1. Buy a Mac
You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
though.
2. Down the SDK (software development kit)
"Apple provides the free SDK for iPhone development from their Developer
site,"
http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
3. Learn Objective C
This is the primary programming language for iPhone development. "It's
an extension of C to include object-orientated principles,"
"Here's a short history of Objective C," offers Scott, "It was born out
of Smalltalk which was a very early Object Oriented Programming language
developed in Xerox PARC (where Window/Mouse computing really begun) and
as a consequence was heavily adopted by Apple since as early as the
Lisa. Smalltalk is very similar to C.
4. Start writing something!
Forget theory; forget mastering Objective C with your first attempt.
Just set yourself a project and start working. "I knew nothing about
Objective C, Cocoa, or OpenGL prior to starting iShoot.
5. Sign-up as an official developer
If you plan on releasing your masterpiece at any point, you'll need to
sign up with the iPhone Developer Program. The Standard cost is $99
6. Prepare for a few weeks of workŠ
Depending on the time available, and your level of programming
knowledge, developing an iPhone game can...
7. Submit your app to Apple
Okay, this is the big one. "Finished games have to be submitted to the
App Store using the same interface as music producers use," explains
Varrall. "It's a straightforward process of zipping up the file,
uploading it with a description, a large and small icon, and screenshots
8. Adapt, market and survive!
The work doesn't finish once you've made it onto App Store. As it's
unlikely you'll have your own in-house QA department, some bugs and
design issues may only surface when hundreds of gamers get their hands
on the code. Consequently, it may be necessary to submit several
alterations.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/feb/10/gameculture-ap
ple
pass it on !!!!!!!!!
RonB
> 1. Buy a Mac
> You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
> version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
> though.
Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
--
RonB
"There's a story there...somewhere"
David Moyer
> > 1. Buy a Mac
> > You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
> > version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
> > though.
>
> Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
and here's a realtime price tracker when you're ready
http://www.macprices.net/refurbished.shtml
---
Nick Ballard
> On Fri, 06 Mar 2009 22:28:44 -0600, David Moyer <dav...@world.com> wrote:
>
>> 1. Buy a Mac
>> You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
>> version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
>> though.
>
> Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
>
I tried it once; it was great for a few weeks and then the novelty wore
off. I might switch back for $21k/mo, though.
RonB
Thanks anyway, but once the Palm Pre' is released, iPhones will be passe'.
:) (I really don't have anything against iPhones -- I just think Macs are
*way* overpriced.)
The computer I'm using now cost about $80, including very inflated
shipping ($35) -- it's a Dell GX270 (2.8 Gig, Pentium 4 HT). I spent
another $20 for a Gig of memory and hooked it up to my Dell M992 19"
monitor ($8 at the thrift store). Runs CentOS 5.2 (Red Hat) just fine. I
also run Windows 2000 in VirtualBox for those few Windows programs I still
want.
I bought my wife a new computer this year (she doesn't like being on the
trailing edge, like me) -- a Dell Optiplex 360. It's got two Gigs of
memory, a 2.5 Gig Intel Dual Core processor, a DVD burner, a 250 Gig hard
drive and it came with a 22" flat panel monitor -- all on special for
$479. Unfortunately my wife doesn't run Linux, so I "downgraded" from
Vista to Windows XP for her (I made sure the model I bought had XP drivers
available).
I would rather spend my money on an extra computer for running something
else -- like asterisk, for example rather then spend it all on one
computer.
RonB
wrote:
I'm not a developer, but you might want to be looking into developing apps
for the Linux-based Palm Pre' -- I think it's going to be big (unless the
economy is even crappier in couple months than it is now).
Nick Ballard
I'm a first-year engineering student, so I don't really have any
experience as a developer either. I do agree, though, that Palm's new
WebOS looks like a very promising platform. I might have to check it
out once my programming skills are half-decent.
Doctor Smith
> Here's what you have to do to be next:
>
> (these have been shortened quite a bit, the full text & graphics of each
> step is at the link at the bottom)
>
> 1. Buy a Mac
You are posting in a Linux group, comp.os.linux.advocacy, amongst others.
Linux Freetards don't BUY ANYTHING.
They expect EVERYTHING for free.
That's the "FREE" part of Freetards.
I'm sure you can figure out the 'tard part on your own.
David Moyer
> I might switch back for $21k/mo, though.
it's $21k a DAY... or about $630,000 a month :)
sweet! the new gold rush is on!
Hadron
Hadron
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 01:22:00 -0600, David Moyer <dav...@world.com> wrote:
>
>> RonB <ronb02...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > 1. Buy a Mac
>>> > You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
>>> > version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
>>> > though.
>>>
>>> Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
>>
>> someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
>> used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
>> rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/imac/
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/macpro/
>>
>>
>> and here's a realtime price tracker when you're ready
>>
>> http://www.macprices.net/
>>
>> http://www.macprices.net/refurbished.shtml
>
> Thanks anyway, but once the Palm Pre' is released, iPhones will be
> passe'. :) (I really don't have anything against iPhones -- I just
> think Macs are *way* overpriced.)
did you read the prices?
David Moyer
> > Thanks anyway, but once the Palm Pre' is released, iPhones will be
> > passe'. :) (I really don't have anything against iPhones -- I just
> > think Macs are *way* overpriced.)
>
> did you read the prices?
yes, the Pre is $399 with a two year contract. yes, the Pre is made by
ex-apple employees, but come on, twice what Apple charges for less phone
isn't going to fly.
Hadron
Mark Crispin
> apple introduced some
> rock'n machines on tuesday
Yawn. The only people who found Tuesday's announcement interesting are
fanboys who wished they were girls so they could have Steve Jobs' love
child.
It was a completely uninspired, and utterly minor, tweak to the old
product line and prices. They apparently think that the current recession
will be over soon and people will be back to "shop until ya drop" mode.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Larry
@news.qwest.net:
David! Go take a look at the new Samsung NC20 MULTITOUCH netbook! The
touchpad is right out of iPhone....(c;]
Comes out on the 16th of this month at Newegg.com
Sermo Malifer
I doubt every iPhone application is as profitable as that one is, and
crowding the field isn't likely to help either.
SMS
> On Sat, 7 Mar 2009, David Moyer posted:
>> apple introduced some
>> rock'n machines on tuesday
>
> Yawn. The only people who found Tuesday's announcement interesting are
> fanboys who wished they were girls so they could have Steve Jobs' love
> child.
True, all the experts were disappointed with the high prices and the
hardware. No wonder their market share is falling.
RonB
How does four times faster than an iPhone translate into "less phone?" And
I don't know what the Palm Pre' is going to cost (I haven't received any
information from Sprint yet), but I do know that Sprint's data packages
are much cheaper than AT&T's -- so you have to factor that into your
equation.
So now we've got more MacTroll FUD?
pltr...@spamlessxhost.org
>Yawn. The only people who found Tuesday's announcement interesting are
>fanboys who wished they were girls so they could have Steve Jobs' love
>child.
I guess you're simply incapable of rendering an opinion without hurling juvenile
insults at anyone who you fear might disagree.
That kind of attitude is too childish to deal with, so into the global killfile
you go. {plonk}
-- Larry
RonB
Apple can thank Vista for their rise in PC sales. The iPhone is good, but
it's expensive -- especially if you use AT&T's data plans. Let's see what
the Palm Pre' can do. Are Mac users afraid of a little competition? Or is
it choice that has their knickers in a knot?
Oliver Costich
wrote:
>RonB <ronb02...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > 1. Buy a Mac
>> > You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
>> > version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
>> > though.
>>
>> Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
>
>someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
>used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
>rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
Macs.
RonB
<ocos...@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
> The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
> Macs.
Yep. The cheapest Mac Mini I saw advertised in Moyer's links was $469. I
tried to click that link to see what the specs were and found it was sold
out. That was a refurbished unit without a monitor. I mentioned my wife's
computer as an example (a new Dell Optiplex 360 with higher specs and a 22
inch flastscreen monitor) sold for $479 directly from Dell. And it's
actually a little cheaper now -- about $438. Macs may be good for certain
jobs and some people may prefer them (and I say "fantastic" for those who
want them) but they are still much more expensive than comparable PCs. No
use in FUDding about that simple fact.
>> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/imac/
>>
>> http://www.apple.com/macpro/
>>
>>
>> and here's a realtime price tracker when you're ready
>>
>> http://www.macprices.net/
>>
>> http://www.macprices.net/refurbished.shtml
--
Sermo Malifer
The Pre has a physical keyboard and a special touch area that lets you
navigate with one hand, and no AT&T contract.
Seems to me that's more phone than the iPhone for less than it costs for
an iPhone.
Sermo Malifer
I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
will go someplace like this:
HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
* • AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
* • Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
Pack 1
* • 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
* • 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
* • Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
* • 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
* • HP MediaSmart software suite
Price: $559.99*
(As low as $17/mo†)
This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
to qualify.
It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
you can buy new elsewhere.
RonB
<sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
> you can buy new elsewhere.
Yep. Mac should sell their OS for standard PCs. They could make a fortune
right now. People are desperate to get away from Vista -- some will even
pay inflated prices for PCs running OSX if they have to.
Of course Linux is the better solution.
Sermo Malifer
I've seen one decent post out of you. The rest is trash like this.
Snit
PM:
Better for whom and in what way? And why do people "pay inflated prices"
for OS X when Linux is free?
Hint: Mainstream applications and user experience / UI issues. They matter.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
David Moyer
no, of course not, but there are 100's of developers with similar stories
keep in mind the incredibly popular iPod Touch is also part of this gold
rush, and 12 million of them (iphone/ipod touch) come online every 90
days... which shows this will be a billion dollar software industry in
two more months.
David Moyer
> >someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
> >used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
> >rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
>
> The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
> Macs.
they do? what PC machine can beat the specs of Apple's new Mac mini?
http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
it's $569, and I guarantee you can't meet that price with those Mac mini
specs in the PC world, but have fun trying!
David Moyer
> I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
> will go someplace like this:
>
> http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/can.do?storeName=storefronts&catLev
> el=1&landing=rts_desktop&category=rts_desktop
>
> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>
>
> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
> Pack 1
> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
slow, no Intel Core Duo 2, very slow video care, no OSX, no iLife, no
802.11n, it's not a silent operating unit, no firewire 800, no display
port, no bluetooth, no 5 usb ports, no optical audio, etc... doesn't
sound like very good value.
> Price: $559.99*
> (As low as $17/moÝ)
>
> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
free shipping for all macs is standard.
> Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
> purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
> to qualify.
yes, free printer too.
> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
> you can buy new elsewhere.
it's a great deal if you want a higher quality unit, but if just want a
slow PC with very few features the HP Pavilion might be okay.
a much bigger bang for your buck is here:
http://www.macconnection.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9488161&Sour
ceID=k13533
(and the full mac mini price matrix -->
pltr...@spamlessxhost.org
>> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>>
>> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
>> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with SP1
>> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
>> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
>> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
>> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
>> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>
>slow, no Intel Core Duo 2...
AMD quad core.
>very slow video care...
dedicated video card, which is all most people want or need.
>no OSX, no iLife...
Duh.
> no 802.11n...
Which is not yet a standard anyway, so of dubious -- if any -- value.
>it's not a silent operating unit...
True.
> no firewire 800...
Of use only to video specialists, basically.
> no display port...
A MAc only spec, useful with only Mac displays.
> no bluetooth...
A $10 addition that most people don't use.
> no 5 usb ports...
True. It has 6 USB ports.
> no optical audio, etc... doesn't sound like very good value.
>
>> Price: $559.99*
>> (As low as $17/moÝ)
>>
>> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
Sounds like good value to anyone who doen't have highly specialized needs or a
business agenda.
-- Larry
The Bob
news:gouaqj$s73$1...@hadronquark.motzarella.org:
David's not the brightest bulb in the group.
The Pre is rumored to be in the $175-200 range with contract.
Jon
If you are going to post something useless like this, please keep it on the
AT&T, iPhail, and crAPPLE groups.
"David Moyer" <dav...@world.com> wrote in message
news:49b1f7fc$0$33214$815e...@news.qwest.net...
> You've probably heard all about iShoot. Written by a programmer at Sun
> Microsystems in his spare time, this Worms-style artillery shooter
> blasted to the top of the App Store charts earlier this year and stayed
> there for weeks earning its creator $21,000 a day, enough money to pack
> in his day job and become a professional developer.
>
> There's no question about it, iPhone has become the people's platform.
> While the PC maintains a healthy indie development scene, Apple's
> handset, with its low barriers to entry and seamless consumer purchasing
> system, is the real rags-to-riches machine. In practically a month, you
> can develop an application that will be available to a global market of
> enthusiastic downloaders.
>
> Here's what you have to do to be next:
>
> (these have been shortened quite a bit, the full text & graphics of each
> step is at the link at the bottom)
>
> 1. Buy a Mac
> You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
> version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
> though.
>
> 2. Down the SDK (software development kit)
> "Apple provides the free SDK for iPhone development from their Developer
> site,"
>
> http://developer.apple.com/iphone/
>
> 3. Learn Objective C
> This is the primary programming language for iPhone development. "It's
> an extension of C to include object-orientated principles,"
>
> "Here's a short history of Objective C," offers Scott, "It was born out
> of Smalltalk which was a very early Object Oriented Programming language
> developed in Xerox PARC (where Window/Mouse computing really begun) and
> as a consequence was heavily adopted by Apple since as early as the
> Lisa. Smalltalk is very similar to C.
>
> 4. Start writing something!
> Forget theory; forget mastering Objective C with your first attempt.
> Just set yourself a project and start working. "I knew nothing about
> Objective C, Cocoa, or OpenGL prior to starting iShoot.
>
> 5. Sign-up as an official developer
> If you plan on releasing your masterpiece at any point, you'll need to
> sign up with the iPhone Developer Program. The Standard cost is $99
>
> 6. Prepare for a few weeks of workS
> Depending on the time available, and your level of programming
> knowledge, developing an iPhone game can...
>
> 7. Submit your app to Apple
> Okay, this is the big one. "Finished games have to be submitted to the
> App Store using the same interface as music producers use," explains
> Varrall. "It's a straightforward process of zipping up the file,
> uploading it with a description, a large and small icon, and screenshots
>
> 8. Adapt, market and survive!
> The work doesn't finish once you've made it onto App Store. As it's
> unlikely you'll have your own in-house QA department, some bugs and
> design issues may only surface when hundreds of gamers get their hands
> on the code. Consequently, it may be necessary to submit several
> alterations.
>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/feb/10/gameculture-ap
> ple
>
> pass it on !!!!!!!!!
David Moyer
> >slow, no Intel Core Duo 2...
>
> AMD quad core.
still slower than the intel chip, even more once Snow Leopard arrives.
> >very slow video care...
>
> dedicated video card, which is all most people want or need.
still slower than the Nvidia 9400M, even more once Snow Leopard arrives
using OpenCL.
> >no OSX, no iLife...
>
> Duh.
Yes, but that's still a big plus for the mini.
> > no 802.11n...
>
> Which is not yet a standard anyway, so of dubious -- if any -- value.
having much faster speed & range is dubious? it's great for running HD
TVs by the way...
> >it's not a silent operating unit...
>
> True.
yes, a perfectly silent box is a huge, often overlooked feature.
> > no firewire 800...
>
> Of use only to video specialists, basically.
it's great for massive hard drives to running IP Clusters over Firewire.
http://www.macminicolo.net/i_mini/minisdark.png
sweet!
> > no display port...
>
> A MAc only spec, useful with only Mac displays.
incorrect, it's not an Apple spec but the new industry standard for
computer displays and home theater systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
> > no bluetooth...
>
> A $10 addition that most people don't use.
well, it's useful in the mac world not the pc one is what you mean.
> > no 5 usb ports...
>
> True. It has 6 USB ports.
okay, didn't see the 2 on the front, so it's like what the apple
keyboard gives you, so it has 6, the mini has 7.
> > no optical audio, etc... doesn't sound like very good value.
> >
> >> Price: $559.99*
> >> (As low as $17/moÝ)
> >>
> >> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
>
> Sounds like good value to anyone who doen't have highly specialized needs or a
> business agenda.
so as always, it depends on your needs, but the fact the mac mini runs
more software and is cheaper for what you get... it makes it the better
value for your money.
RonB
That's about what I figured it would be. I have a Sprint account and have
my name in for the announcement -- so, I figure, I'll know for sure when
that happens. I'll wait until my two year committment is up -- in November.
nospam
<pltr...@spamlessxhost.org> wrote:
> > no 802.11n...
>
> Which is not yet a standard anyway, so of dubious -- if any -- value.
there are no anticipated changes from draft-n to the official standard
and it's much faster and more reliable than g.
> > no firewire 800...
>
> Of use only to video specialists, basically.
nonsense. it's of use to anyone who wants decent hard drive speed.
> > no display port...
>
> A MAc only spec, useful with only Mac displays.
nonense. read more about it here:
and there is no such thing as a 'mac only display.'
dell actually was one of the first to use displayport:
<http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/about_dell/company/innov
ation/cto_display_port?c=us&l=en&s=corp&redirect=1>
<http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?
c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=223-4890>
hp uses displayport too:
<http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/382087-382087-64283-72270-
444767-3648453.html>
> > no bluetooth...
>
> A $10 addition that most people don't use.
but some do.
David Moyer
> And this has to do with Verizon and Linux...how?
what? it's perfect for Verizon users consider moving up to an iPhone, or
if and when Apple allows Verizon to sell the iPhone, they'll be up to
speed on current events. for the Linux folks it's about programming
opportunities on Unix.
so try and keep up Jon!
RonB
Reality just doesn't sink in very well with you, does it?
Again... for $579 (your first link) you get a Mac Mini. No monitor. 1 year
warranty, add in another $149 for a three year warranty. Now you're up to
$728 -- still no monitor.
Your Mini Mac hardware specs are: 1 GB memory, 2 Ghz Intel Dual Core
processor, a 120 GB hard hard drive, an N class Wifi card and a Nvidia
9400 video card.
Directly from Dell you can get an Optiplex (business class computer), with
a 2.4 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor (faster than the Mini Mac you've
highlighted), 2 Gigs of memory (twice as much as the Mini), a 250 GB hard
drive (twice as big as the Mini), and a Nvidia 9300 video card (about the
same) -- for $553. And this includes shipping and a 3 year warranty... and
you get a 22 inch widescreen, LCD monitor on top of it. The only you thing
you have to add is an N class WiFi card (if you actually need one in an
office environment) -- for about $70 to $80 at full price name brand
(Linksys on Newegg is $70). So let's round it up to $633 -- so for almost
$100 less than the entry-level Mac Mini, you get a business class
computer, with better specs AND a 22 inch LCD screen.
Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
RonB
I've shown you twice now, that an Optiplex 360 not only meets but exceeds
all specs you've given me, plus it gives you a 22" LCD monitor.
Go here and learn:
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/desktop-optiplex-360?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Just pick the "Dell Deal" (which starts at $409, with 2 Gig memory and
2.4Ghz Intel Dual Core cpu and 19" monitor) and customize away.
Nothing like it for price in the Mac world. Trust me.
And the reason I pick the Optiplex 360 is that it has an Intel Dual Core
processor, which compares more directly to your Mac Mini.
Snit
PM:
> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
Oh. You cannot.
So we have to look at the whole widget.
And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
reason to think the trend is different:
<http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
David Moyer
> Again... for $579 (your first link) you get a Mac Mini. No monitor. 1 year
> warranty, add in another $149 for a three year warranty. Now you're up to
> $728 -- still no monitor.
yes, but monitors can be had for basically free, look at craigslist or
ask a friend... and a lot of people are putting them on big HDTV sets
and getting rid of cable or directv... so your TV becomes the monitor.
why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
doesn't make sense.
> Your Mini Mac hardware specs are: 1 GB memory, 2 Ghz Intel Dual Core
> processor, a 120 GB hard hard drive, an N class Wifi card and a Nvidia
> 9400 video card.
yes, add another gig of ram, $9, big whoop...
> Directly from Dell you can get an Optiplex (business class computer), with
> a 2.4 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor (faster than the Mini Mac you've
> highlighted), 2 Gigs of memory (twice as much as the Mini), a 250 GB hard
> drive (twice as big as the Mini), and a Nvidia 9300 video card (about the
> same) -- for $553.
yes, but putting that on a desk or next to a tv isn't the best, you'd
have to deal with fan noise, etc. then you still don't have firewire,
bluetooth, osx, ilife, etc... so it's bad investment.
> And this includes shipping and a 3 year warranty...
and what good is a warranty if you never use it?
> and
> you get a 22 inch widescreen, LCD monitor on top of it. The only you thing
> you have to add is an N class WiFi card (if you actually need one in an
> office environment) -- for about $70 to $80 at full price name brand
> (Linksys on Newegg is $70). So let's round it up to $633 -- so for almost
> $100 less than the entry-level Mac Mini, you get a business class
> computer, with better specs AND a 22 inch LCD screen.
>
> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
well, go ahead and find a PC which meets or exceeds a Mac mini for a
lower price and we'll talk, not sure what the hold up is...
Snit
3/7/09 5:12 PM:
> RonB <ronb02...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again... for $579 (your first link) you get a Mac Mini. No monitor. 1 year
>> warranty, add in another $149 for a three year warranty. Now you're up to
>> $728 -- still no monitor.
>
> yes, but monitors can be had for basically free, look at craigslist or
> ask a friend... and a lot of people are putting them on big HDTV sets
> and getting rid of cable or directv... so your TV becomes the monitor.
In other words: depends on your needs. If you compare two different types
of hardware / software no meaningful comparison can be made.
> why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
> doesn't make sense.
No offense, but that is a weak argument. Lots of people get the extended
warrantees.
>> Your Mini Mac hardware specs are: 1 GB memory, 2 Ghz Intel Dual Core
>> processor, a 120 GB hard hard drive, an N class Wifi card and a Nvidia
>> 9400 video card.
>
> yes, add another gig of ram, $9, big whoop...
>
>> Directly from Dell you can get an Optiplex (business class computer), with
>> a 2.4 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor (faster than the Mini Mac you've
>> highlighted), 2 Gigs of memory (twice as much as the Mini), a 250 GB hard
>> drive (twice as big as the Mini), and a Nvidia 9300 video card (about the
>> same) -- for $553.
>
> yes, but putting that on a desk or next to a tv isn't the best, you'd
> have to deal with fan noise, etc. then you still don't have firewire,
> bluetooth, osx, ilife, etc... so it's bad investment.
Well, again, depends on the need.
>> And this includes shipping and a 3 year warranty...
>
> and what good is a warranty if you never use it?
It is like insurance... the idea is you hope to not... but you might.
>> and
>> you get a 22 inch widescreen, LCD monitor on top of it. The only you thing
>> you have to add is an N class WiFi card (if you actually need one in an
>> office environment) -- for about $70 to $80 at full price name brand
>> (Linksys on Newegg is $70). So let's round it up to $633 -- so for almost
>> $100 less than the entry-level Mac Mini, you get a business class
>> computer, with better specs AND a 22 inch LCD screen.
>>
>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>
> well, go ahead and find a PC which meets or exceeds a Mac mini for a
> lower price and we'll talk, not sure what the hold up is...
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:22:00 -0700, David Moyer <dav...@world.com>
> wrote:
>
>> RonB <ronb02...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> 1. Buy a Mac
>>>> You'll need one with an Intel-based processor, running the Leopard
>>>> version of MacOS X. It doesn't have to be a top of the range model,
>>>> though.
>>> Well, that ain't gonna' happen. Thanks anyhow.
>> someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
>> used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
>> rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
>
> The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
> Macs.
You'll get more hardware for less money with a comparable PC. David
also understated the price of new Macs. The cheapest new Mac is $599,
and you can buy a quad core PC with 4 GB of RAM for less than that.
Hadron
COLA freetards wont like that. They want other people to write SW and
then give it them for free so THEY can make money for it. Ask Phil Da
Lick in particular or Andrew Halliwell who thins downloading pirated SW
is not stealing.
RonB
> RonB <ronb02...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Again... for $579 (your first link) you get a Mac Mini. No monitor. 1
>> year warranty, add in another $149 for a three year warranty. Now
>> you're up to $728 -- still no monitor.
>
> yes, but monitors can be had for basically free, look at craigslist or
> ask a friend... and a lot of people are putting them on big HDTV sets
> and getting rid of cable or directv... so your TV becomes the monitor.
Tell me where I can pick up a brand new, 22" LCD monitor for free. I'll be
jumping right on those suckers. So, do all you Mac users buy Mini Macs,
then go down to the thrift store to find a monitor? (I guess you might
have to, considering what Mac chargers for the hardware.)
> why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
> doesn't make sense.
Sure, Macs exist in La La Land where nothing ever goes wrong with their
hardware. So Mac repair shops are all going broke, I guess. With a Dell
Optiplex you don't have to think about it. A three year, onsite warranty
comes as part of the deal.
>> Your Mini Mac hardware specs are: 1 GB memory, 2 Ghz Intel Dual Core
>> processor, a 120 GB hard hard drive, an N class Wifi card and a Nvidia
>> 9400 video card.
>
> yes, add another gig of ram, $9, big whoop...
From Mac? Doubt it. How much more to double the size of the hard drive?
Starts adding up, doesn't it?
>> Directly from Dell you can get an Optiplex (business class computer),
>> with a 2.4 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor (faster than the Mini Mac you've
>> highlighted), 2 Gigs of memory (twice as much as the Mini), a 250 GB
>> hard drive (twice as big as the Mini), and a Nvidia 9300 video card
>> (about the same) -- for $553.
>
> yes, but putting that on a desk or next to a tv isn't the best, you'd
> have to deal with fan noise, etc. then you still don't have firewire,
> bluetooth, osx, ilife, etc... so it's bad investment.
The Optiplex 360 fan is almost silent. Of course I'm not putting it next
to the TV -- I'm putting it on a desk, where I'm betting most Mac
developers put there Macs -- right beside the monitors they buy for them.
And, I'm guessing, that most Mac developers aren't using Mini Macs either.
So their prices are much, much higher than a comparable PC machine.
>> And this includes shipping and a 3 year warranty...
>
> and what good is a warranty if you never use it?
Sure. And what good is reality if you never engage it?
>> and you get a 22 inch widescreen, LCD monitor on top of it. The only
>> you thing you have to add is an N class WiFi card (if you actually need
>> one in an
>> office environment) -- for about $70 to $80 at full price name brand
>> (Linksys on Newegg is $70). So let's round it up to $633 -- so for
>> almost $100 less than the entry-level Mac Mini, you get a business class
>> computer, with better specs AND a 22 inch LCD screen.
>>
>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>
> well, go ahead and find a PC which meets or exceeds a Mac mini for a
> lower price and we'll talk, not sure what the hold up is...
Just did, MacTroll, for a second time. But keep repeating your same lying
mantra... someone else may read it and respond.
Adios.
Hadron
"Did you read the prices" was in relation to the Macs. So I guess you're
not either.
Hadron
> Sermo Malifer <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
>> will go someplace like this:
>>
>> http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/can.do?storeName=storefronts&catLev
>> el=1&landing=rts_desktop&category=rts_desktop
>>
>> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>>
>>
>> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
>> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
>> Pack 1
>> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
>> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
>> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
>> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
>> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>
> slow, no Intel Core Duo 2, very slow video care, no OSX, no iLife, no
> 802.11n, it's not a silent operating unit, no firewire 800, no display
> port, no bluetooth, no 5 usb ports, no optical audio, etc... doesn't
> sound like very good value.
For a COLA "advocate" like Spermio, this is an incredibly powerful
machine. Don't discuss HW (or SW) with COLA "advocates" because they are
clueless about most things new and "cutting edge".
>
>> Price: $559.99*
>> (As low as $17/moÝ)
>>
>> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
>
> free shipping for all macs is standard.
See? He's clueless.
>
>> Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
>> purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
>> to qualify.
>
> yes, free printer too.
>
>> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
>> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
>> you can buy new elsewhere.
>
> it's a great deal if you want a higher quality unit, but if just want a
> slow PC with very few features the HP Pavilion might be okay.
It's the only way he can get Linux to work on it. There is frequently a
delay getting Linux to work with newer for obvious reasons.
>
> a much bigger bang for your buck is here:
>
> http://www.macconnection.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9488161&Sour
> ceID=k13533
>
> (and the full mac mini price matrix -->
>
> http://www.pcprices.net/macmini.shtml
Spermio isn't interested in facts.
David Moyer
> > yes, but monitors can be had for basically free, look at craigslist or
> > ask a friend... and a lot of people are putting them on big HDTV sets
> > and getting rid of cable or directv... so your TV becomes the monitor.
>
> In other words: depends on your needs. If you compare two different types
> of hardware / software no meaningful comparison can be made.
no snit, the request was to get a machine similar to the mac mini for
less price. even if you take out software from the mix on both machines,
no PC can match the Mac mini for the price. FireWire 800 & Display Port
in that small of case ends the contest at the very start, but it's fun
to watch them try.
> > why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
> > doesn't make sense.
>
> No offense, but that is a weak argument. Lots of people get the extended
> warrantees.
yes, but very few ever use them is the point.
> > and what good is a warranty if you never use it?
>
> It is like insurance... the idea is you hope to not... but you might.
then put that money in the bank and spend it if needed, but to give a
company "money"... "just in case" is foolish.
Sermo Malifer
> RonB stated in post op.uqf4j...@localhost.localdomain on 3/7/09 4:51
> PM:
>
>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>
> Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
>
> Oh. You cannot.
No freedom of choice in Macland.
> So we have to look at the whole widget.
The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
> And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
> comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
> reason to think the trend is different:
>
> <http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
>
> Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
Of course it's wrong!
If not, show where we can buy a new Apple computer for the same price:
Compaq Presario CQ2009F Desktop PC
* • Compact PC optimized for Internet access and basic communication
* • Intel Atom 230 Processor (1.6GHz)
* • Genuine Windows XP Home Edition
* • 1GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
* • 160GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
* • 6-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
Price: $269.99*
(As low as $15/mo†)
Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
to qualify.
$269.99 for PC and printer.
HP Pavilion a6745f Desktop PC
* • AMD Athlon X2 5050e Dual-Core Processor (2.6GHz)
* • Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with SP1
* • 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
* • 320GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
* • 802.11b/g wireless LAN
* • 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
* • HP MediaSmart software
Price: $499.99*
(As low as $15/mo†)
This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
to qualify.
$499.99 for a better computer than the $599 Mac Mini, with a printer
thrown in besides.
David Moyer
> > The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
> > Macs.
>
> You'll get more hardware for less money with a comparable PC. David
> also understated the price of new Macs. The cheapest new Mac is $599,
> and you can buy a quad core PC with 4 GB of RAM for less than that.
but you can't buy one with as many high end features as the Mac mini for
$579 is the point.
Snit
3/7/09 5:48 PM:
> Snit <cs...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
>>> yes, but monitors can be had for basically free, look at craigslist or
>>> ask a friend... and a lot of people are putting them on big HDTV sets
>>> and getting rid of cable or directv... so your TV becomes the monitor.
>>
>> In other words: depends on your needs. If you compare two different types
>> of hardware / software no meaningful comparison can be made.
>
> no snit, the request was to get a machine similar to the mac mini for
> less price. even if you take out software from the mix on both machines,
> no PC can match the Mac mini for the price. FireWire 800 & Display Port
> in that small of case ends the contest at the very start, but it's fun
> to watch them try.
Well, other computers come with other benefits... but, sure, if those are
your priorities then it is hard to match.
>>> why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
>>> doesn't make sense.
>>
>> No offense, but that is a weak argument. Lots of people get the extended
>> warrantees.
>
> yes, but very few ever use them is the point.
I know I have... unfortunately.
>>> and what good is a warranty if you never use it?
>>
>> It is like insurance... the idea is you hope to not... but you might.
>
> then put that money in the bank and spend it if needed, but to give a
> company "money"... "just in case" is foolish.
For the most part I agree - I do not get extended warrantees... but it
depends on the details. If the PC comes with it, though, then it is fair to
add it to the Mac to do a same-widget comparison.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
> Snit wrote:
>> RonB stated in post op.uqf4j...@localhost.localdomain on 3/7/09 4:51
>> PM:
>>
>>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>>
>> Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
>>
>> Oh. You cannot.
>
> No freedom of choice in Macland.
Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>
> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
>> And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
>> comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
>> reason to think the trend is different:
>>
>> <http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
>>
>> Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
>
> Of course it's wrong!
And you are right... LOL!
> If not, show where we can buy a new Apple computer for the same price:
Irrelevant to the discussion.
All you can do is change the topic. Oh well.
...
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
> Oliver Costich <ocos...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> someday it probably will happen for you ron, intel Macs are down to $449
>>> used and $569 new, so the price barrier is gone. apple introduced some
>>> rock'n machines on tuesday, here are the new links:
>> The price barrier is gone? Comparable PCs still sell for far less than
>> Macs.
>
> they do? what PC machine can beat the specs of Apple's new Mac mini?
Many. I've already posted one.
> http://www.apple.com/macmini/
>
> http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
>
> it's $569,
No, it's $599.
> and I guarantee you can't meet that price with those Mac mini
> specs in the PC world, but have fun trying!
It's child's play to come up with a better, cheaper machine than the Mac
Mini.
HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
* • AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
* • Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
Pack 1
* • 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
* • 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
* • Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
* • 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
* • HP MediaSmart software suite
Price: $559.99*
(As low as $17/mo†)
RonB
<sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
> It's child's play to come up with a better, cheaper machine than the Mac
> Mini.
I don't think this fellow lives in the real world. I also doubt that most
Mac developers use the entry level Mini Mac -- and when you get into the
MacPros, you get into real money.
This is the guy who told me that Macs never fail, and that Mac Mini buyers
scrounge the thrift shops (or Craigslist) for monitors when they buy their
new machines -- or they use their TVs. Oh, and he also told me that 22"
LCD monitors are now giveaway items.
Yeah, right.
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
>> will go someplace like this:
>>
>> http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/can.do?storeName=storefronts&catLev
>> el=1&landing=rts_desktop&category=rts_desktop
>>
>> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>>
>>
>> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
>> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
>> Pack 1
>> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
>> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
>> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
>> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
>> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>
> slow,
Not slow, fast.
> no Intel Core Duo 2,
Quad core AMD. Better than the Intel Core Duo of the Mac Mini.
> very slow video care,
Wrong again:
"NVIDIA GeForce 6150 SE Graphics with 128MB dedicated graphics memory.
Up to 1343MB Total Available Graphics Memory as allocated by Windows Vista"
no OSX, no iLife,
That's worth paying more to get much less hardware? I don't think so.
I'll take the Linux alternatives.
> no 802.11n,
Neither is anything else on my network.
"Network Interface 10/100Base-T network interface
Wireless Connectivity Wireless LAN 802.11b/g(18)"
That suits me just fine.
> it's not a silent operating unit,
Standard Apple fanboi lie told about a PC as a knee-jerk response.
> no firewire 800,
It has two IEEE 1394 ports.
> no display port,
No display port? What do you think it has, a wireless monitor?
> no bluetooth,
Why would I want to give up two processor cores and 2 GB of RAM to get
that? I can always add that to the PC via expansion slot if I need it.
> no 5 usb ports,
It has SIX USB 2.0 ports! Did you even bother to look at the PC?
Your reply screams "NO!"
> no optical audio, etc... doesn't
> sound like very good value.
"Optical Drive(s) SuperMulti DVD Burner(6): 16x max DVD±R, 12x max
DVD±R DL,8x max DVD+RW, 6x max DVD-RW, 12x max DVD-RAM, 40x
max CD-R, 32x max CD-RW. Read: 16x max DVD-ROM, 40x
CD-ROM.(6)"
"Sound High Definition Audio, 8 speaker configurable"
Sounds like you're lying through your teeth, Apple fanboi.
>> Price: $559.99*
>> (As low as $17/moÝ)
>>
>> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
>
> free shipping for all macs is standard.
Great. How do you get quad processors into the Macs standard?
>> Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
>> purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
>> to qualify.
>
> yes, free printer too.
For special education deals.
Tell how to get a quad processor, 4 GB of RAM (with a maximum of 8 GB),
500 GB HD, a 15-in-1 media reader, five expansion slots, five bays, in a
new Mac Mini, for $560.
>> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
>> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
>> you can buy new elsewhere.
>
> it's a great deal if you want a higher quality unit, but if just want a
> slow PC with very few features the HP Pavilion might be okay.
>
> a much bigger bang for your buck is here:
Meaning the bang you hear when you bang your head against the wall in
remorse from wasting your money on a Mac.
> http://www.macconnection.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9488161&Sour
> ceID=k13533
>
> (and the full mac mini price matrix -->
>
> http://www.pcprices.net/macmini.shtml
www.hp.com is the better place to go.
Sermo Malifer
> David Moyer <dav...@world.com> writes:
>
>> Sermo Malifer <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
>>> will go someplace like this:
>>>
>>> http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/can.do?storeName=storefronts&catLev
>>> el=1&landing=rts_desktop&category=rts_desktop
>>>
>>> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>>>
>>>
>>> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
>>> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
>>> Pack 1
>>> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
>>> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
>>> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
>>> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
>>> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>> slow, no Intel Core Duo 2, very slow video care, no OSX, no iLife, no
>> 802.11n, it's not a silent operating unit, no firewire 800, no display
>> port, no bluetooth, no 5 usb ports, no optical audio, etc... doesn't
>> sound like very good value.
>
> For a COLA "advocate" like Spermio, this is an incredibly powerful
> machine. Don't discuss HW (or SW) with COLA "advocates" because they are
> clueless about most things new and "cutting edge".
Hadron is as wrong about this as he is everything else. The goal
wasn't to show a "incredibly powerful machine," just how much better a
PC you could buy for less money than a Mac Mini.
>
>>> Price: $559.99*
>>> (As low as $17/moÝ)
>>>
>>> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
>> free shipping for all macs is standard.
>
> See? He's clueless.
We see you're wrong as always.
>>> Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
>>> purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
>>> to qualify.
>> yes, free printer too.
>>
>>> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
>>> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
>>> you can buy new elsewhere.
>> it's a great deal if you want a higher quality unit, but if just want a
>> slow PC with very few features the HP Pavilion might be okay.
The HP Pavilion is a much better PC than what Apple sells you for more
money. The HP PC is loaded with features and power, more than the Mac
has, yet costs less.
> It's the only way he can get Linux to work on it. There is frequently a
> delay getting Linux to work with newer for obvious reasons.
>
>> a much bigger bang for your buck is here:
>>
>> http://www.macconnection.com/IPA/Shop/Product/Detail.htm?sku=9488161&Sour
>> ceID=k13533
>>
>> (and the full mac mini price matrix -->
>>
>> http://www.pcprices.net/macmini.shtml
>
> Spermio isn't interested in facts.
Says once of the worst Wintrolls infesting COLA.
Snit
PM:
Better in what way? Better software? Did your "better" hardware have
FW800? Display port?
Depends on your needs what is "better".
Sermo Malifer
You can buy a PC with *MORE* "high end features" as the Mac Mini, for
less than $579, and the lowest price at the Apple Store is $599 for a
Mac Mini.
We're still waiting for you to tell us how to get a new quad core Mac
Mini with 4 GB RAM and 500 GB of HD for $560.
Sermo Malifer
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:04:01 -0600, Sermo Malifer
> <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's great Apple finally upgraded the hardware of the Mac Mini, but it's
>> still not much of a deal at a starting price of $600, compared to what
>> you can buy new elsewhere.
>
> fortune right now. People are desperate to get away from Vista -- some
> will even pay inflated prices for PCs running OSX if they have to.
>
> Of course Linux is the better solution.
I agree with you 100%.
RonB
<sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
> You can buy a PC with *MORE* "high end features" as the Mac Mini, for
> less than $579, and the lowest price at the Apple Store is $599 for a
> Mac Mini.
>
> We're still waiting for you to tell us how to get a new quad core Mac
> Mini with 4 GB RAM and 500 GB of HD for $560.
Does some kind of brainwashing program come with some Macs? It seems like
MacTrolls run in one rut and only one rut -- and can never get out of it
-- no matter how the facts stack up against them. And again, I
differentiate between MacTROLLS and Mac users -- but I only see the trolls
here.
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post gov4m0$3h8$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 5:49
> PM:
>
>> Snit wrote:
>>> RonB stated in post op.uqf4j...@localhost.localdomain on 3/7/09 4:51
>>> PM:
>>>
>>>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>>> Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
>>>
>>> Oh. You cannot.
>> No freedom of choice in Macland.
>
> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
>>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
>
> Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
You're wrong, as always.
>>> And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
>>> comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
>>> reason to think the trend is different:
>>>
>>> <http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
>>>
>>> Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
>> Of course it's wrong!
>
> And you are right... LOL!
I proved myself right, laughing boy.
>> If not, show where we can buy a new Apple computer for the same price:
>
> Irrelevant to the discussion.
Proof is not irrelevant, even though you snip it away.
> All you can do is change the topic. Oh well.
I didn't change the topic, liar.
Why don't you take your traveling freak show back to CSMA where it belongs?
Snit
PM:
It depends: for me Linux is a *part* of the solution, but it is not a better
solution, not by itself.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
The trump card he thinks he's playing is that any PC you come up with
has to be as small as the Mac Mini is.
I don't have any need to give up processor cores, RAM, and HD space to
get that.
He's also playing the Apple fanboi trick of demanding comparable PCs
contain everything the Mac has, while ignoring anything the PC has that
the Mac does not.
Snit
PM:
> Snit wrote:
>> Sermo Malifer stated in post gov4m0$3h8$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 5:49
>> PM:
>>
>>> Snit wrote:
>>>> RonB stated in post op.uqf4j...@localhost.localdomain on 3/7/09 4:51
>>>> PM:
>>>>
>>>>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>>>> Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
>>>>
>>>> Oh. You cannot.
>>> No freedom of choice in Macland.
>>
>> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>
> Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
Well, if you see getting the whole "widget" as a lack of freedom, sure. But
having that "lack of freedom" allows me to be "free" in ways I cannot be
with Linux or OS X. Trade-offs. So be it.
>>>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>>> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
>>
>> Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
>
> You're wrong, as always.
All I said is if you want to compare two items in a fair way you should get
comparable items.
This is not rocket science!
>>>> And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
>>>> comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
>>>> reason to think the trend is different:
>>>>
>>>> <http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
>>>>
>>>> Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
>>> Of course it's wrong!
>>
>> And you are right... LOL!
>
> I proved myself right, laughing boy.
Nope. Not at all.
>>> If not, show where we can buy a new Apple computer for the same price:
>>
>> Irrelevant to the discussion.
>
> Proof is not irrelevant, even though you snip it away.
I can talk about the price of tea in China... it will not become relevant.
>> All you can do is change the topic. Oh well.
>
> I didn't change the topic, liar.
Sure you did: from two companies based on product segment they share with
looking for product segments one company does not have.
> Why don't you take your traveling freak show back to CSMA where it belongs?
Why don't you stop waving your white flag?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
LOL
Good job, Ron!
Sermo Malifer
I guess that means you're going to be replacing the Linux development
system you claim to have with a Mac.
Sermo Malifer
You have not diminished my agreement with RonB.
Sermo Malifer
I certainly hope most Mac users aren't like the MacTrolls! LOL
RonB
I see. So the fact that the Mini Mac is cheaper because it is "toy" Mac
doesn't enter into the equation. The whole thread started about about
using a Mac for development -- and, I'm pretty sure, most Mac developers
would use a MacPro, not a Mac Mini.
But there is a Dell PC (Dell Studio Hybrid) that compares to the Mac Mini
in size and specs -- but it only runs Vista so I have no interest in it.
Like the Mini Mac, it's a toy.
For $449 you get:
An Intel Dual Core 2.0 ghz CPU
2 Gigs of memory
A 160 Gig hard drive
Intel X3100 graphics card
DVD reader and writer
1 year warranty
You'll have to add a WiFi adapter
An Asus eee Box doesn't come that far from comparing to the Mac Mini and
its a lot cheaper.
Sermo Malifer
>>>
>>>> I might switch back for $21k/mo, though.
>>> it's $21k a DAY... or about $630,000 a month :)
>>>
>>> sweet! the new gold rush is on!
>> I doubt every iPhone application is as profitable as that one is, and
>> crowding the field isn't likely to help either.
>
> no, of course not, but there are 100's of developers with similar stories
You only presented one such story. Where are the hundreds of other
similar stories to be found?
> keep in mind the incredibly popular iPod Touch is also part of this gold
> rush, and 12 million of them (iphone/ipod touch) come online every 90
> days... which shows this will be a billion dollar software industry in
> two more months.
Where's your reference to back your figures?
> http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/
Didn't you used to post under the name of "Oxford?"
Snit
PM:
OK.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
> RonB wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:33:44 -0600, Sermo Malifer
>> <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's child's play to come up with a better, cheaper machine than the Mac
>>> Mini.
>>
>> I don't think this fellow lives in the real world. I also doubt that
>> most Mac developers use the entry level Mini Mac -- and when you get
>> into the MacPros, you get into real money.
>>
>> This is the guy who told me that Macs never fail, and that Mac Mini
>> buyers scrounge the thrift shops (or Craigslist) for monitors when they
>> buy their new machines -- or they use their TVs. Oh, and he also told me
>> that 22" LCD monitors are now giveaway items.
>>
>> Yeah, right.
>
> The trump card he thinks he's playing is that any PC you come up with
> has to be as small as the Mac Mini is.
That is *one* selling point of it. Another is how green it is. Another is
the FW800... and the Display Port. Yet another is the OS and the apps it
comes with.
Those might not matter to you... but to compare it to a machine that does
not have at least a good percentage of those things and, where it does not,
it does not even have anything that similar, well... then any price
comparison is useless. And, of course, I left out many other features.
> I don't have any need to give up processor cores, RAM, and HD space to
> get that.
Is anyone in COLA trying to get you to buy one?
> He's also playing the Apple fanboi trick of demanding comparable PCs
> contain everything the Mac has, while ignoring anything the PC has that
> the Mac does not.
The machines should be *similar* if you want to make a meaningful
comparison. Of course.
Heck, my car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my
needs *better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick
should drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your
"logic" she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why
should she use anything else?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my needs
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post govb23$bl1$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 7:37
> PM:
>
>> Snit wrote:
>>> Sermo Malifer stated in post gov4m0$3h8$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 5:49
>>> PM:
>>>
>>>> Snit wrote:
>>>>> RonB stated in post op.uqf4j...@localhost.localdomain on 3/7/09 4:51
>>>>> PM:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Macs hardware prices are *not* comparable to PCs. Just the facts.
>>>>> Where can I get Mac hardware sans software?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh. You cannot.
>>>> No freedom of choice in Macland.
>>> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>> Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
>
> Well, if you see getting the whole "widget" as a lack of freedom, sure.
Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
> But
> having that "lack of freedom" allows me to be "free" in ways I cannot be
> with Linux or OS X. Trade-offs. So be it.
You're free from reality and sanity.
>>>>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>>>> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
>>> Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
>> You're wrong, as always.
>
> All I said is if you want to compare two items in a fair way you should get
> comparable items.
That's not all you said! Fair is comparing any PC you can get for the
same price or less as what Apple sells, to the Mac. It isn't trying to
duplicate the Mac, and it's not kowtowing your demands.
> This is not rocket science!
Yet it is more than you can cope with!
>>>>> And in such comparisons the Mac generally does quite well. My list of
>>>>> comparisons is getting old and I have not been adding to it, but I have no
>>>>> reason to think the trend is different:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think the mass of data is just flat out wrong?
>>>> Of course it's wrong!
>>> And you are right... LOL!
>> I proved myself right, laughing boy.
>
> Nope. Not at all.
>
>>>> If not, show where we can buy a new Apple computer for the same price:
>>> Irrelevant to the discussion.
>> Proof is not irrelevant, even though you snip it away.
>
> I can talk about the price of tea in China... it will not become relevant.
What has that got to do with the proof you snipped away?
>>> All you can do is change the topic. Oh well.
>> I didn't change the topic, liar.
>
> Sure you did: from two companies based on product segment they share with
> looking for product segments one company does not have.
I compared $560 PC to a $599 Mac. That's not a change of topic, no
matter what nonsense you dream up to make it into one.
>> Why don't you take your traveling freak show back to CSMA where it belongs?
>
> Why don't you stop waving your white flag?
I'm not the one on the losing side.
Snit
PM:
...
>>>> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>>> Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
>>
>> Well, if you see getting the whole "widget" as a lack of freedom, sure.
>
> Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
Sure: there are choices not available. No argument here. I can get the OS
without a machine, but not a machine without the OS. Of course, I can get
the machine and install any OS on it I want... such as Linux or Windows.
>> But having that "lack of freedom" allows me to be "free" in ways I cannot be
>> with Linux or OS X. Trade-offs. So be it.
>>
> You're free from reality and sanity.
That was not even a good attempt at a dodge... really, it was pathetic.
If I go with, say, Ubuntu and not OS X, for example, I do not have the
"freedom" to have a well thought out, consistent UI. I do not have the
"freedom" to have a consumer-level multimedia suite that allows me to do
what iTunes makes so easy. I do not have the "freedom" to have tools I find
very useful, such as PDF services, proxy icons, unified Save and Print
dialogs, etc.
This is not to say that Ubuntu does not *also* offer benefits... it clearly
does. I run it also. On my Mac. Most people, though, would have no such
need.
>>>>>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>>>>> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
>>>> Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
>>> You're wrong, as always.
>>
>> All I said is if you want to compare two items in a fair way you should get
>> comparable items.
>
> That's not all you said!
Quote me saying something different.
> Fair is comparing any PC you can get for the same price or less as what Apple
> sells, to the Mac. It isn't trying to duplicate the Mac, and it's not
> kowtowing your demands.
My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my needs
*better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick should
drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your "logic"
she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why should
she use anything else?
...
>> Why don't you stop waving your white flag?
>
> I'm not the one on the losing side.
Your white flag does not show you fear you are "losing", it shows you know
you already lost!
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Larry
news:op.uqgdp...@localhost.localdomain:
> An Asus eee Box doesn't come that far from comparing to the Mac Mini
> and its a lot cheaper.
>
> --
>
How about running OSX on a Samsung NC10?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv6tKzBp158&feature=related
Or, how about a Samsung NC10 TOUCHSCREEN running OSX?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1H_gmvnRaE&feature=related
Damned hackers ......
OR....you can boot XP, Win7 or OSX...all in one NC10 netbook!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5rXSCnN4d8&feature=related
I guess Jobs would be unhappy, right??
it'll multiboot Linux, too....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtdAHOc59ik
I was going to wait for the NC20 but someone screwed it up with a GLOSSY
SCREEN and I'm NOT buying another glossy screen even if it has a 400Ghz
processor on a 300GHZ motherboard that runs 24 hours on a charge.....
Tim Smith
David Moyer <dav...@world.com> wrote:
> You've probably heard all about iShoot. Written by a programmer at Sun
> Microsystems in his spare time, this Worms-style artillery shooter
> blasted to the top of the App Store charts earlier this year and stayed
> there for weeks earning its creator $21,000 a day, enough money to pack
> in his day job and become a professional developer.
His day job was a professional developer, so the last part of your
statement makes no sense.
--
--Tim Smith
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post govbev$brv$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 7:44
> PM:
>
>> RonB wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:33:44 -0600, Sermo Malifer
>>> <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's child's play to come up with a better, cheaper machine than the Mac
>>>> Mini.
>>> I don't think this fellow lives in the real world. I also doubt that
>>> most Mac developers use the entry level Mini Mac -- and when you get
>>> into the MacPros, you get into real money.
>>>
>>> This is the guy who told me that Macs never fail, and that Mac Mini
>>> buyers scrounge the thrift shops (or Craigslist) for monitors when they
>>> buy their new machines -- or they use their TVs. Oh, and he also told me
>>> that 22" LCD monitors are now giveaway items.
>>>
>>> Yeah, right.
>> The trump card he thinks he's playing is that any PC you come up with
>> has to be as small as the Mac Mini is.
>
> That is *one* selling point of it.
One I have yet to see anybody show a need of.
> Another is how green it is.
"Green" while idle. LOL
> Another is
> the FW800... and the Display Port.
With half the processor cores, a quarter of the RAM, smaller HD, no
media card reader, no drive bays, no expansion slots.
> Yet another is the OS and the apps it
> comes with.
Which is not an issue when comparing hardware.
> Those might not matter to you... but to compare it to a machine that does
> not have at least a good percentage of those things
I compared it to a machine that has more of those things, but costs less.
> and, where it does not,
> it does not even have anything that similar, well... then any price
> comparison is useless. And, of course, I left out many other features.
The Mac loses all price comparisons, no matter what nonsense you dream
up to ignore them.
>> I don't have any need to give up processor cores, RAM, and HD space to
>> get that.
>
> Is anyone in COLA trying to get you to buy one?
Did you forget what this thread is about?
>> He's also playing the Apple fanboi trick of demanding comparable PCs
>> contain everything the Mac has, while ignoring anything the PC has that
>> the Mac does not.
>
> The machines should be *similar* if you want to make a meaningful
> comparison. Of course.
Did you think I was comparing a Mac to a toaster oven?
> Heck, my car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my
> needs *better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick
> should drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your
> "logic" she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why
> should she use anything else?
What is it about Mac users and their irrelevant car analogies? Is
their something in the Mac EULA that says you have to make those to use
a Mac?
Don't label your nonsense as my "logic." My logic is not to pay more
for a Mac to get less hardware than I can get in a cheaper PC.
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post govdle$drc$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 8:22
> PM:
>
> ...
>>>>> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>>>> Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
>>> Well, if you see getting the whole "widget" as a lack of freedom, sure.
>> Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
>
> Sure: there are choices not available. No argument here. I can get the OS
> without a machine, but not a machine without the OS. Of course, I can get
> the machine and install any OS on it I want... such as Linux or Windows.
>
>>> But having that "lack of freedom" allows me to be "free" in ways I cannot be
>>> with Linux or OS X. Trade-offs. So be it.
>>>
>> You're free from reality and sanity.
>
> That was not even a good attempt at a dodge... really, it was pathetic.
It's an apt description of you, too bad it makes you believe you're
pathetic. You can take comfort in the fact you see yourself for what
you are.
> If I go with, say, Ubuntu and not OS X, for example, I do not have the
> "freedom" to have a well thought out, consistent UI. I do not have the
> "freedom" to have a consumer-level multimedia suite that allows me to do
> what iTunes makes so easy. I do not have the "freedom" to have tools I find
> very useful, such as PDF services, proxy icons, unified Save and Print
> dialogs, etc.
None of that is true, but don't let it worry you. Go back to CSMA and
forget all about Linux.
> This is not to say that Ubuntu does not *also* offer benefits... it clearly
> does. I run it also. On my Mac. Most people, though, would have no such
> need.
I'll bet that Mac isn't a Mac Mini.
>>>>>>> So we have to look at the whole widget.
>>>>>> The Apple fanbois love to tell us what we "have" to do!
>>>>> Well, if you want to be fair and reasonable. You do not. So be it.
>>>> You're wrong, as always.
>>> All I said is if you want to compare two items in a fair way you should get
>>> comparable items.
>> That's not all you said!
>
> Quote me saying something different.
Why should I quote back in what you snipped out of the post?
>> Fair is comparing any PC you can get for the same price or less as what Apple
>> sells, to the Mac. It isn't trying to duplicate the Mac, and it's not
>> kowtowing your demands.
>
> My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my needs
> *better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick should
> drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your "logic"
> she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why should
> she use anything else?
Again, don't label your nonsense as my "logic." Your strange
irrelevant car references have nothing to do with getting the most value
when purchasing a computer.
> ...
>
>>> Why don't you stop waving your white flag?
>> I'm not the one on the losing side.
>
> Your white flag does not show you fear you are "losing", it shows you know
> you already lost!
I don't have any white flag. You're free of reality and sanity, as I
said above.
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post govdle$drc$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 8:22
> PM:
>
> ...
>>>>> Well, no choice to get a Mac without an OS. OK.
>>>> Lack of freedom is only "OK" in Macland!
>>> Well, if you see getting the whole "widget" as a lack of freedom, sure.
>> Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
>
> Sure: there are choices not available. No argument here. I can get the OS
> without a machine, but not a machine without the OS. Of course, I can get
> the machine and install any OS on it I want... such as Linux or Windows.
IOW, with the Mac it's take it or leave it. If you want freedom of
choice, you buy some other computer.
Sermo Malifer
> In article <49b1f7fc$0$33214$815e...@news.qwest.net>,
> David Moyer <dav...@world.com> wrote:
>
>> You've probably heard all about iShoot. Written by a programmer at Sun
>> Microsystems in his spare time, this Worms-style artillery shooter
>> blasted to the top of the App Store charts earlier this year and stayed
>> there for weeks earning its creator $21,000 a day, enough money to pack
>> in his day job and become a professional developer.
>
> His day job was a professional developer,
Was a programmer. All programmers are not developers.
> so the last part of your statement makes no sense.
Actually it does.
David Moyer
> > You've probably heard all about iShoot. Written by a programmer at Sun
> > Microsystems in his spare time, this Worms-style artillery shooter
> > blasted to the top of the App Store charts earlier this year and stayed
> > there for weeks earning its creator $21,000 a day, enough money to pack
> > in his day job and become a professional developer.
>
> His day job was a professional developer, so the last part of your
> statement makes no sense.
nice catch, you'll have to let the author know :)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2009/feb/10/gameculture-ap
ple
Sermo Malifer
Actually Tim is wrong. The article says he's a programmer, which
doesn't automatically make him a developer.
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post gova5e$b36$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 7:22
> PM:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>> David Moyer <dav...@world.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Sermo Malifer <sermom...@noemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I doubt I'll ever be ready for any of the above. The prudent shopper
>>>>> will go someplace like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/can.do?storeName=storefronts&cat
>>>>> Lev
>>>>> el=1&landing=rts_desktop&category=rts_desktop
>>>>>
>>>>> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
>>>>> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
>>>>> Pack 1
>>>>> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
>>>>> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
>>>>> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
>>>>> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
>>>>> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>>>> slow, no Intel Core Duo 2, very slow video care, no OSX, no iLife, no
>>>> 802.11n, it's not a silent operating unit, no firewire 800, no display
>>>> port, no bluetooth, no 5 usb ports, no optical audio, etc... doesn't
>>>> sound like very good value.
>>> For a COLA "advocate" like Spermio, this is an incredibly powerful
>>> machine. Don't discuss HW (or SW) with COLA "advocates" because they are
>>> clueless about most things new and "cutting edge".
>> Hadron is as wrong about this as he is everything else. The goal
>> wasn't to show a "incredibly powerful machine," just how much better a
>> PC you could buy for less money than a Mac Mini.
>
> Better in what way? Better software? Did your "better" hardware have
> FW800? Display port?
>
> Depends on your needs what is "better".
> ...
What's better, two cores or four cores? 1 GB RAM or 4 GB RAM? 120
GB HD or 500 GB HD?
What owner of FW800 devices buys a Mac Mini to run them? At least the
PC has a slot to put a PW800 card into.
Sermo Malifer
David Moyer
> > why would you ever buy extended warranty on an apple desktop? that
> > doesn't make sense.
>
> A three year, onsite warranty
> comes as part of the deal.
incorrect, dell's standard warranty is phone support and mail in. you
pay much extra for onsite.
> >> Your Mini Mac hardware specs are: 1 GB memory, 2 Ghz Intel Dual Core
> >> processor, a 120 GB hard hard drive, an N class Wifi card and a Nvidia
> >> 9400 video card.
> >
> > yes, add another gig of ram, $9, big whoop...
>
> From Mac? Doubt it. How much more to double the size of the hard drive?
> Starts adding up, doesn't it?
why would you buy extra memory from Apple? that doesn't make sense, a
500GB is $86 shipped. so it's easy to see you can't compete when you
start comparing the mini to other pc's
The Bob
> The Bob <nos...@bob.com> writes:
>
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> amazed us all with the following in
>> news:gouaqj$s73$1...@hadronquark.motzarella.org:
>>
>>> David Moyer <dav...@world.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > Thanks anyway, but once the Palm Pre' is released, iPhones will be
>>>>> > passe'. :) (I really don't have anything against iPhones -- I just
>>>>> > think Macs are *way* overpriced.)
>>>>>
>>>>> did you read the prices?
>>>>
>>>> yes, the Pre is $399 with a two year contract. yes, the Pre is made
>>>> by ex-apple employees, but come on, twice what Apple charges for less
>>>> phone isn't going to fly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Come again?
>>>
>>
>> David's not the brightest bulb in the group.
>>
>> The Pre is rumored to be in the $175-200 range with contract.
>
> "Did you read the prices" was in relation to the Macs. So I guess you're
> not either.
>
The price posted above has nothing to do with Macs, but does have something
to do with cell phones.
Better hurry up- I know it takes you forever to get your helmet on before
the short bus arrives.
David Moyer
> >
> > they do? what PC machine can beat the specs of Apple's new Mac mini?
>
> Many. I've already posted one.
where? someone posted a big HP for a similar price, but it didn't come
even close to the specs of the mini. why is it so hard for you folks to
at least try?
> > http://www.apple.com/macmini/
> >
> > http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html
> >
> > it's $569,
>
> No, it's $599.
no, that's the suggested retail, not the actual price.
> > and I guarantee you can't meet that price with those Mac mini
> > specs in the PC world, but have fun trying!
>
> It's child's play to come up with a better, cheaper machine than the Mac
> Mini.
if it's so easy why doesn't anyone do it?
> HP Pavilion a6700f Desktop PC
>
> * € AMD Phenom X4 9150e Quad-Core Processor (1.8GHz)
> * € Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit Edition with Service
> Pack 1
> * € 4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 SDRAM
> * € 500GB 7200 rpm SATA hard drive
> * € Wireless LAN 802.11b/g
> * € 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
> * € HP MediaSmart software suite
>
> Price: $559.99*
where is the 802.11n? Bluetooth, DisplayPort, Firewire 800, the Remote
Control? And why so slow of Processor? where is the 1066 Mhz front side
bus? Optical in / out?
so find a PC machine with these basic specs or higher for $569 and we'll
talk...
* 2.0 or 2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor
* 1066 MHz front side bus
* Two SO-DIMM slots support up to 4 GB of DDR3 RAM
* NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor
* 120GB hard drive
* Slot-loading SuperDrive
* One FireWire 800 port
* Five USB 2.0 ports
* Built-in AirPort Extreme Wi-Fi (802.11n) + Bluetooth 2.1
* Gigabit Ethernet
* Mini DVI Port
* Mini Display Port
* Infrared Remote
* 6.5 x 6.5 x 2 inches, weight under 3 pounds
(to make it easy, let's just leave out all software)
> This item ships free Free standard shipping on this item
> Free HP Deskjet D4360 Printer Printer with paperless rebate when
> purchased with any PC (X070). Must add HP Deskjet D4360 printer to cart
> to qualify.
all macs ship free, and can come with free printer if you still use them.
Sermo Malifer
> "Jon" <J...@cebridge.net> wrote:
>
>> And this has to do with Verizon and Linux...how?
>
> what? it's perfect for Verizon users consider moving up to an iPhone,
Sure, because we all know Verizon customers have been longing for a less
reliable network with a more expensive AT&T contract so they can play
with an iPhone. LOL
> or
> if and when Apple allows Verizon to sell the iPhone, they'll be up to
> speed on current events.
Back when you used to post under the name "Oxford," weren't you posting
about how the iPhone was going to kill 3G networks with free WiFi
connections?
> for the Linux folks it's about programming
> opportunities on Unix.
No, it's about programming opportunities on an Apple SDK. "Linux
folks" already have all the "programming opportunities on Unix" they need.
<snip>
Snit
PM:
...
>>> The trump card he thinks he's playing is that any PC you come up with
>>> has to be as small as the Mac Mini is.
>>
>> That is *one* selling point of it.
>
> One I have yet to see anybody show a need of.
Given that you merely deny that which is bothersome to you, what you claim
to not have seen is irrelevant.
>> Another is how green it is.
>
> "Green" while idle. LOL
What? You have no idea what you are talking about.
>> Another is
>> the FW800... and the Display Port.
>
> With half the processor cores, a quarter of the RAM, smaller HD, no
> media card reader, no drive bays, no expansion slots.
Sad attempt at a dodge.
>> Yet another is the OS and the apps it
>> comes with.
>
> Which is not an issue when comparing hardware.
We have already established you cannot buy a Mac mini sans software.
>> Those might not matter to you... but to compare it to a machine that does
>> not have at least a good percentage of those things
>
> I compared it to a machine that has more of those things, but costs less.
Irrelevant. As you have been told:
My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it
serves my needs *better* than a race car would. Does that
mean that Danica Patrick should drive my car in her next
race? Of course not! But if we used your "logic" she
should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better.
Why should she use anything else?
>> and, where it does not,
>> it does not even have anything that similar, well... then any price
>> comparison is useless. And, of course, I left out many other features.
>
> The Mac loses all price comparisons, no matter what nonsense you dream
> up to ignore them.
<http://csma.gallopinginsanity.com/prices/>
Not like you have not been shown those in the past. You are, simply, lying.
...
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
...
>> If I go with, say, Ubuntu and not OS X, for example, I do not have the
>> "freedom" to have a well thought out, consistent UI. I do not have the
>> "freedom" to have a consumer-level multimedia suite that allows me to do
>> what iTunes makes so easy. I do not have the "freedom" to have tools I find
>> very useful, such as PDF services, proxy icons, unified Save and Print
>> dialogs, etc.
>
> None of that is true...
Yet you cannot point to a distro which is a contrary example.
...
>>>> All I said is if you want to compare two items in a fair way you should get
>>>> comparable items.
>>> That's not all you said!
>>
>> Quote me saying something different.
>
> Why should I quote back in what you snipped out of the post?
Your dodge is noted... your white flag is tattered.
>>> Fair is comparing any PC you can get for the same price or less as what
>>> Apple sells, to the Mac. It isn't trying to duplicate the Mac, and it's not
>>> kowtowing your demands.
>>>
>> My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my needs
>> *better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick should
>> drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your "logic"
>> she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why should she
>> use anything else?
>>
> Again, don't label your nonsense as my "logic." Your strange irrelevant car
> references have nothing to do with getting the most value when purchasing a
> computer.
Your dodge is noted. Your white flag is tattered.
>
>> ...
>>
>>>> Why don't you stop waving your white flag?
>>> I'm not the one on the losing side.
>>
>> Your white flag does not show you fear you are "losing", it shows you know
>> you already lost!
>
> I don't have any white flag. You're free of reality and sanity, as I
> said above.
You repeatedly are waving your white flag. See above for several examples:
when you make absurd claims you know you cannot support... when you openly
lie, as you are, that is a form of waving your white flag. You, clearly, do
not believe your own claims.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
>>> Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
>>
>> Sure: there are choices not available. No argument here. I can get the OS
>> without a machine, but not a machine without the OS. Of course, I can get
>> the machine and install any OS on it I want... such as Linux or Windows.
>
> IOW, with the Mac it's take it or leave it. If you want freedom of
> choice, you buy some other computer.
As you have dodged, before:
If I go with, say, Ubuntu and not OS X, for example, I do not
have the "freedom" to have a well thought out, consistent UI.
I do not have the "freedom" to have a consumer-level
multimedia suite that allows me to do what iTunes makes so
easy. I do not have the "freedom" to have tools I find very
useful, such as PDF services, proxy icons, unified Save and
Print dialogs, etc.
This is not to say that Ubuntu does not *also* offer
benefits... it clearly does. I run it also. On my Mac.
Most people, though, would have no such need.
But now that you know the Mac mini comes with software perhaps you will stop
pretending comparisons with it and other machines should exclude software.
Then again: that implies you are honest, and you are not.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
>>>> For a COLA "advocate" like Spermio, this is an incredibly powerful
>>>> machine. Don't discuss HW (or SW) with COLA "advocates" because they are
>>>> clueless about most things new and "cutting edge".
>>> Hadron is as wrong about this as he is everything else. The goal
>>> wasn't to show a "incredibly powerful machine," just how much better a
>>> PC you could buy for less money than a Mac Mini.
>>
>> Better in what way? Better software? Did your "better" hardware have
>> FW800? Display port?
>>
>> Depends on your needs what is "better".
>> ...
>
> What's better, two cores or four cores? 1 GB RAM or 4 GB RAM? 120
> GB HD or 500 GB HD?
>
> What owner of FW800 devices buys a Mac Mini to run them? At least the
> PC has a slot to put a PW800 card into.
As I have noted: each machine has areas it is better.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
"Directly from Dell you can get an Optiplex (business class computer),
with a 2.4 Ghz Intel Core Duo processor (faster than the Mini Mac you've
highlighted), 2 Gigs of memory (twice as much as the Mini), a 250 GB
hard drive (twice as big as the Mini), and a Nvidia 9300 video card
(about the same) -- for $553. And this includes shipping and a 3 year
warranty... and you get a 22 inch widescreen, LCD monitor on top of it.
The only you thing you have to add is an N class WiFi card (if you
actually need one in an office environment) -- for about $70 to $80 at
full price name brand (Linksys on Newegg is $70). So let's round it up
to $633 -- so for almost $100 less than the entry-level Mac Mini, you
get a business class computer, with better specs AND a 22 inch LCD screen. "
Want to tell us again how you're supposed to be able to get 22" LCD
monitors for free? How about telling us where to get that $9 per GB
memory that's guaranteed to work in a Mac? How about telling us how
to get that extra memory and replacement $86 HD into the Mac Mini, and
why we shouldn't notice that raised its price?
Sermo Malifer
Your evasion is noted.
Sermo Malifer
You're insane.
Snit
PM:
...
>> My car is a *lot* cheaper than a race car... and yet it serves my needs
>> *better* than a race car would. Does that mean that Danica Patrick should
>> drive my car in her next race? Of course not! But if we used your "logic"
>> she should... my car is cheaper *and* serves my needs better. Why should
>> she use anything else?
>
> We're still waiting for you to tell us how to get a new quad core Mac
> Mini with 4 GB RAM and 500 GB of HD for $560.
As you run from my question, you can wait for me to tell you many things I
never said I would... it is just another form of you waving your white flag.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
Your white flag is noted: I comment on how each machine has benefits and
then you ask me about clear benefits of one, as if you have made a point.
Hint: you have not.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
And yet you are the one who repeatedly fails to point to the Linux distros
that do as you say, cannot answer simple questions as to why Danica would
not drive my cheaper car that serves me better, and otherwise runs around
waving your white flag.
You have shown you cannot support your claims. No reason to suspect even
you believe the drivel you spew.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Sermo Malifer
> Sermo Malifer stated in post govll4$m9p$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/7/09 10:38
> PM:
>
>>>> Being forced to take it or leave it is lack of freedom.
>>> Sure: there are choices not available. No argument here. I can get the OS
>>> without a machine, but not a machine without the OS. Of course, I can get
>>> the machine and install any OS on it I want... such as Linux or Windows.
>> IOW, with the Mac it's take it or leave it. If you want freedom of
>> choice, you buy some other computer.
>
> As you have dodged, before:
I addressed your lies and insanity before.
> If I go with, say, Ubuntu and not OS X, for example, I do not
> have the "freedom" to have a well thought out, consistent UI.
> I do not have the "freedom" to have a consumer-level
> multimedia suite that allows me to do what iTunes makes so
> easy. I do not have the "freedom" to have tools I find very
> useful, such as PDF services, proxy icons, unified Save and
> Print dialogs, etc.
That's all nonsense no matter how many times you repeat it.
> This is not to say that Ubuntu does not *also* offer
> benefits... it clearly does. I run it also. On my Mac.
> Most people, though, would have no such need.
You have no idea what most people need.
> But now that you know the Mac mini comes with software
As if I didn't know before!
> perhaps you will stop
> pretending comparisons with it and other machines should exclude software.
No comparison will be made to consider what software Apple forces you to
take along with the Mac!
> Then again: that implies you are honest, and you are not.
I'm not the dishonest one here, just as you're not the sane one.
Why don't you take your traveling freak show back to
comp.sys.mac.advocacy, where it belongs?