Cat Fancy August 2000 re: dry food diets
Rechelle Blair
on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE that
these are *vets* and not lay persons.
<"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
"Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
require fewer preservatives, but cats tend to like the taste more than
dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight. Plus, any
uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile. On the other
hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the cat to
graze as it pleases.
"They will go to the canned food every time. But it's not as dense so
the cat has to eat more. Just leave dry food out all the time. The Cat
will not nibble" Dr. Carey says.
"I don't see any need for canned food. As a rule of thumb, use dry
food, unless you're trying to put weight on the cat" Dr. Tripp adds.
Dr. Remillard advises saving the canned food for when the cat is sick or
needs a pill.>
This is identical to what my vet tells me. Actually, what all the vets
say.
You can read more of this article in the magazine. The name of the
article is Best Bites from page 14 to page 31.
Sincerely,
Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
same magazine, written again by a vet.
http://www.animalnetwork.com/cats/library/nutrition/catfood/food.asp
This is more on nutrition for cats, as well as general wellbeing for them.
http://www.animalnetwork.com/cats/library/nutrition/catfood/default.asp
e...@nickennui.net
Nice to see current info.
Rechelle Blair
With the utmost respect to you, I will disagree. I trust my vets & my
experience. I've had better luck on 90% dry food diet, then I have on a
canned diet. The cats have been healthier, happier and their weight
doesn't go up & down like it used to (ie. Cindy). In all my years of
having cats that go to the vet (my parents farm excluded since my parents
were in charge of that) I've never had a cat that had crystals or
blockages. I have had a cat that reacted extremely badly to canned food,
between loss of bowel & bladder control to unstoppable vommitting. His
body would literally go limp from being so sick then. Once I took him off
the canned food by my vets suggestion and put him on dry food, his health
improved until we found out about another disease.
I say this with the utmost respect to you Phil. Please take it as such.
Sincerely,
Rechelle
"Phil P." wrote:
> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:39A70D07...@swbell.net...
> > This is from Cat Fancy magazine August 2000 issue. I'm a little
> behind
> > on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE
> that
> > these are *vets* and not lay persons.
>
> Credentials don't always mean credibility. One can exisit without the
> other.
>
> >
> > <"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
> > "Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
> > save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
> > require fewer preservatives,
>
> Wrong. Canned food requires no preservatives.... vacuumed sealed.....
>
> but cats tend to like the taste more than
> > dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight. Plus, any
> > uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile.
>
> Who leaves canned food out all day????
>
> On the other
> > hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the cat
> to
> > graze as it pleases.
>
> Sure! After the cat drops saliva-moistened food back in bowl to
> ferment all day. Also, dry food is most often fed on an ad libitum
> feeding pattern, which means the cat nibbles throughout the day and
> generally consumes 10 to 20 small meals during a 24-hour period.
> Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial (after
> eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> transient alkalinization of the urine and can promote struvite crystal
> formation. This ad libitum feeding pattern attenuates postprandial
> alkalinization of the urine. Periods of high urine pH allow
> sufficient time for crystal accretion.
>
> > "They will go to the canned food every time. But it's not as dense
> so
> > the cat has to eat more.
>
> WOW! Patently false! Its the other way around! What is this Bozo
> comparing grocery store canned with high quality dry??? Calculated on
> an even dry matter basis, M.E. (kcal/5.5 oz can) is 767, whereas with
> dry food the M.E. (kcal/cup) is 461. (Based on Nutro). Canned food is
> *more* nutrient dense than dry!! Or in simpler terms, Canned = 4.92
> ME (kcal/g) Dry = 4.23 ME (kcal/g). Canned food is more nutrient
> dense than dry food when comparing ***EQUAL*** foods.
>
> "The similar magnesium content and lower caloric density of dry foods
> means that cats eating dry food of lower caloric density than canned
> food must consume more food to obtain sufficient calories and in doing
> so take in more magnesium, thus predisposing them to struvite
> formation. "
>
> C.A. Buffington, DVM, Ph.D., Diplomate, American College of Veterinary
> Nutrition: Head, Nutrition Support Service, Veterinary Teaching
> Hospital, Ohio State University.
>
> Just leave dry food out all the time. The Cat
> > will not nibble" Dr. Carey says.
>
> ...but the bacteria will sure will... in the saliva-moistened food the
> cat drops back in the bowl while eating...
>
> > "I don't see any need for canned food. As a rule of thumb, use dry
> > food, unless you're trying to put weight on the cat" Dr. Tripp
> adds.
>
> Dr Tripp is on a trip....
>
> > Dr. Remillard advises saving the canned food for when the cat is
> sick or
> > needs a pill.>
> >
> >
> > This is identical to what my vet tells me. Actually, what all the
> vets
> > say.
>
> *All* the vets?? I think you missed a "few" in your polling Not mine
> and not *any* who ran controlled studies. There is not one part of
> this entire article that is in agreement with *any* *scientific*
> studies done on nutrition.
>
> Phil
e...@nickennui.net
Most people want facts, and reasonable discussion,
not tilted info, and childish trollish language and
name-calling directed
at people for no reason other than they haven't fully
endorsed a non-professional's personal leaning -- much
less forever and ever like a personal vendeta.
Everyone on the planet knows credentials don't necessarily
mean supreme knowledge, and that there is good and bad everywhere.
To pass them off in alllllll cases as meaningless is certainly
unfounded.
It all naturally takes away from one's ability to believe
in anything the person says.
All in all, it simply reproves basic fact.
Just because someone has a pet, or whatever degree experience,
doesn't mean they don't have psychological problems.
ibidem wrote:
>
>
> One gets the impression that "phil pass" eats professional
> veterinarians for breakfast. Or pretends he does. Or thinks he does.
> Credentials do rather assist credibility, and this sorry pretender has
> none.
>
> --
> Paul
> *the Word Wizard(TM) formerly known as konengro*
Phil P.
Celia Grey
"Phil P." <maxs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Sure! After the cat drops saliva-moistened food back in bowl to
> ferment all day. Also, dry food is most often fed on an ad libitum
> feeding pattern, which means the cat nibbles throughout the day and
> generally consumes 10 to 20 small meals during a 24-hour period.
> Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial (after
> eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> transient alkalinization of the urine and can promote struvite crystal
> formation. This ad libitum feeding pattern attenuates postprandial
> alkalinization of the urine. Periods of high urine pH allow
> sufficient time for crystal accretion.
>
Uh, people might get more help from your info, Phil, if you posted it
in understandable language. Even intelligent, educated people don't
necessarily understand your vet terminology. That's one of the things
I've learned as a lawyer - "No client wants to hear fancy legal terms,
when plain english will do!" ;)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ibidem
> Credentials don't always mean credibility. One can exisit without the
> other.
One gets the impression that "phil pass" eats professional
ibidem
>
> In article <4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Phil P." <maxs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial (after
> > eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> > transient alkalinization of the urine and can promote struvite crystal
> >
> in understandable language. Even intelligent, educated people don't
> necessarily understand your vet terminology. That's one of the things
> I've learned as a lawyer - "No client wants to hear fancy legal terms,
> when plain english will do!" ;)
Celia, I rather suspect that if he said what he meant, people would
discover that much of what he says is self-serving fraudulent egotism,
rather than useful information.
My apologies for attacking that frigging idiot on the end of your post,
but how many blasted vets can contradict him before we realize "pass"
is full of it up to his eyebrows?
*snort*
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>This is from Cat Fancy magazine August 2000 issue. I'm a little behind
>on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE that
>these are *vets* and not lay persons.
>
><"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
>"Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
>save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
>require fewer preservatives,
It requires none. The heat treatment in the canning process means
there is no need to ad preservatives.
>but cats tend to like the taste more than
>dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight.
Rubbish woman. Because the food portions are larger their stomachs
fill much quicker. A cat fed on dry is much more likely to overeat
than one fed a good tinned diet.
>Plus, any
>uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile.
If it isn't eaten within 10 mins there is something wrong with my
cats.
>On the other
>hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the cat to
>graze as it pleases.
So it eats more, gets fat, gets urinary tract problems.....
>"They will go to the canned food every time. But it's not as dense so
>the cat has to eat more.
Untrue, a cat will eat until its stomach is full. A cat fed on three
meals of tinned food has a full and contented stomach.
A cat fed on dry will often be either hungry or over fed.
>Just leave dry food out all the time. The Cat
>will not nibble" Dr. Carey says.
Doctor of what?
>"I don't see any need for canned food. As a rule of thumb, use dry
>food, unless you're trying to put weight on the cat"
The exact REVERSE of what any real vet will tell you.
>Dr. Tripp adds.
>Dr. Remillard advises saving the canned food for when the cat is sick or
>needs a pill.>
What a load of rubbish. Who are these idiots?
>
>
>This is identical to what my vet tells me. Actually, what all the vets
>say.
Liar.
(1) Vets in the UK generally advise no more that 30% dry food in a
diet.
(2) Vets in the UK will advise feeding dry food when it is necessary
for a cat to regain lost weight. This is because dry food is more
concentrated and therefore a cat will overeat. Something it rarely
does on tinned food.
>
>You can read more of this article in the magazine. The name of the
>article is Best Bites from page 14 to page 31.
Ah so Rechelle read it, it must be right. Still, at least you have no
reproduced the text and then drawn a conclusion totally at odds with
it - unlike idibum there may still be hope for you.
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
Ok, what he said is this. Every time your cat eats a natural process
is kicked off which causes a flood of alkaline to enter the cats
digestive system. This flood results in an increase in the pH of the
urine.
Now because a cat's urine is already upset by a dry food diet, and
because this alkaline flood occurs frequently will dry food fed
freely, the damage is a lot greater than for a cat fed three meals of
tinned food a day.
HTH.
--
Bob.
Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
Lotta Stenfelt
Lotta
Rechelle Blair skrev i meddelandet <39A70E4D...@swbell.net>...
>Not a link to this article, but another link on feeding dry food, from the
>same magazine, written again by a vet.
>
>http://www.animalnetwork.com/cats/library/nutrition/catfood/food.asp
>
>This is more on nutrition for cats, as well as general wellbeing for them.
>
>http://www.animalnetwork.com/cats/library/nutrition/catfood/default.asp
>
>
>
>
>
>Rechelle Blair wrote:
>
>> This is from Cat Fancy magazine August 2000 issue. I'm a little behind
>> on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE that
>> these are *vets* and not lay persons.
>>
>> <"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
>> "Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
>> save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
>> require fewer preservatives, but cats tend to like the taste more than
>> dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight. Plus, any
>> uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile. On the other
>> hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the cat to
>> graze as it pleases.
>> "They will go to the canned food every time. But it's not as dense so
>> the cat has to eat more. Just leave dry food out all the time. The Cat
>> will not nibble" Dr. Carey says.
>> "I don't see any need for canned food. As a rule of thumb, use dry
>> food, unless you're trying to put weight on the cat" Dr. Tripp adds.
>> Dr. Remillard advises saving the canned food for when the cat is sick or
>> needs a pill.>
>>
>> This is identical to what my vet tells me. Actually, what all the vets
>> say.
>>
>> You can read more of this article in the magazine. The name of the
>> article is Best Bites from page 14 to page 31.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Rechelle
>
Sally Jackson
<ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.cats:
I often have to take copies of Phil's postings down to another
department to have them explained in plain English. And of
course he does tend to exagerate - but then less than you
idibum.
>--
>Paul
> *the Word Wizard(TM) formerly known as konengro*
alt.cats now suffering from his trolling.
SallyJ.
Mike Cukr
"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
news:4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:39A70D07...@swbell.net...
> > This is from Cat Fancy magazine August 2000 issue. I'm a little
> behind
> > on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE
> that
> > these are *vets* and not lay persons.
>
> Credentials don't always mean credibility. One can exisit without the
> other.
>
> >
> > <"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
> > "Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
> > save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
> > require fewer preservatives,
>
> Wrong. Canned food requires no preservatives.... vacuumed sealed.....
>
Really?? Read all that fine print on the back of the food can under the
heading
of ingredients. ALL foods (human & cat) contain preservatives, flavor
enhancers,
color enhancers, etc, etc.
> but cats tend to like the taste more than
> > dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight. Plus, any
> > uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile.
>
> Who leaves canned food out all day????
>
> On the other
> > hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the cat
> to
> > graze as it pleases.
>
> Sure! After the cat drops saliva-moistened food back in bowl to
> ferment all day. Also, dry food is most often fed on an ad libitum
> feeding pattern, which means the cat nibbles throughout the day and
> generally consumes 10 to 20 small meals during a 24-hour period.
> Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial (after
> eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> transient alkalinization of the urine and can promote struvite crystal
> formation. This ad libitum feeding pattern attenuates postprandial
> alkalinization of the urine. Periods of high urine pH allow
> sufficient time for crystal accretion.
>
Hum, if I read the above correctly ("This ad libitum feeding pattern
attenuates postprandial alkalinization of the urine.") a lot of small
meals reduces the
size and duration of the pH excursions? So you must be feeding your
kitty(s)
10 to 20 small meals of canned food spread out over a 24-hour
peroid........??
Like Rechelle, I contacted a number of local vets (14 in all) and the
majority
of them (11 vs 3) recommended dry foods (one of them recommended 'natural'
foods
ie raw veggies & meat, so I counted her on the wet food side). Almost all
of the dry food advocates cited a preference for ad libitum feeding (more
natural behavor)
and that a 'hard' food diet was better for teeth and gums. All cautioned
that
plenty of water should be made available (any type of diet) and to encourage
a lot of exercise (especially for indoor only cats).
When I asked about FUS and diet, all felt that diet might have been a
factor
in the past (5 years ago or so) and that now they felt that age and exercise
are
considered larger factors now.
I was also courious why the canned food makers didn't include something like
'Research has shown that feeding a diet of canned or moist food will greatly
reduce the risk of FUD and CRF for your pet' in their advertising, so I
called several
of them (most makers have an 800 number) and asked them about this
oversight.
All of them felt that canned foods were more natural in charecter and
content for cats, but that there was still no conclusive evidence to support
any such statement (as much
as they would like there to be).
I even went so far as to e-mail one of them your execellent post of
8/24/00 and it's many citations (I hope that was ok?) (he was impressed with
your obvious research abilities-sorry I can't reveal names, was asked not
to), he felt
the citations were interesting, but not suficiently conclusive to support
any such conclusions.
In short, the jury seems to be still out on this subject. Research is
ongoing, but mostly
conducted by the pet food industry and unfortunatly generally not publicly
available.
It seems that this particular debate has been going on since there was a
choice
between dry and canned foods (1920's ?) and still there is no clear winner.
I was told by almost eveyone I talked to about FUS/CRF that the causes
encompass
very complex areas (like the causes of human cancer), but unlike human
medicine,
there are no large databases of veterinary patient data to examine for
trends, etc.
I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another level
of
contention here.....
Soapbox mode - OFF
-----
Mike
Alley Cat
> Actually, what all the vets say.
Rechelle, will you *please* remember that this is an international NG
and stop making such enormous generalisations. Please will you do what
*we* do and qualify your statements with either "all my vets have said"
or "all the vets I know say" or "all American vets say" (though I doubt
very much you can speak for all American vets), because *all the vets*
do NOT say this. I have never had a vet who says this, so I can
single-handedly disprove what you say. If you qualified your statements
better I wouldn't be able to.
Every vet I've known has disagreed with free feeding precisely because
a) they recommend canned food and canned food should not be left out all
day. Having said that, I recently read an article in a magazine
which said recent research suggested that dry food breeds bacteria
also if left out for long periods, but I'm not sure I can now find
that article so I'm not going to actually argue that one.
b) free feeding too easily leads to a fat cat
c) free feeding is totally unnecesary and many vets believe it's
actually unhealthy to allow a cat to continually feed without
giving its digestive system a break to do its work. My vet
would tell you that he's seen a considerable increase in feline
digestive disorders since free feeding became a trend.
Would you consider it sensible to allow a child to eat non-stop
throughout the day if it wanted to?
There are other things in your post which aren't true, but they've been
addressed by others. One I will address, though, is:
> ....Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods require fewer preservatives,
Canned foods require NO preservatives. I just checked the label of
three brands of canned cat food we have in the cupboard. Over here
we're governed by EEC food laws which mean that anything with
preservatives must say "Contains EEC permitted preservatives". None of
the three cans says this which means they do not contain *any*
preservatives.
Don't you understand that these sweeping statements do your argument
harm because they're so patently wrong? Please, just *qualify* your
statements to make them sensible.
Alley Cat
Alley Cat
>
> I've had better luck on 90% dry food diet, then I have on a
> blockages.
But this is just *you*. A sample of one, which means nothing. This is
precisely why the clinical studies sample large numbers of cats. No
conclusions can be drawn from a sample of one. Are you really not able
to concede that just because *your* cats haven't had a particular
problem doesn't mean that others don't?
> I have had a cat that reacted extremely badly to canned food,
> between loss of bowel & bladder control to unstoppable vommitting.
So have I. One of my cats used to vomit profusely if fed a particular
brand. I don't know what was in it, but when I changed the brand she
stopped vomiting. Does that mean that that brand makes all cats
vomit? Does it mean that cats that eat that brand to this day aren't
healthy? Of course not. It simply means that that particular cat was
allergic to something in that particular food.
It could have been that she might have turned out to be allergic to
something that's an ingredient of all canned foods in which case, in her
particular case, an alternative kind of food would have been necessary.
But that wouldn't in any way justify claiming that because it made her
vomit, canned food is bad for all cats. Now if a clinical study had
shown that a substantial number of cat were vomiting when eating that
food, that would be different.
Alley Cat
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>
>"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
>news:4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:39A70D07...@swbell.net...
>> > This is from Cat Fancy magazine August 2000 issue. I'm a little
>> behind
>> > on my magazines and just read this last night. Please take NOTE
>> that
>> > these are *vets* and not lay persons.
>>
>> Credentials don't always mean credibility. One can exisit without the
>> other.
>>
>> >
>> > <"Should you buy dry, moist or canned food?"
>> > "Beacause soft/moist foods are loaded with preservatives, you should
>> > save them for the occasional treat" Dr. Tripp says. Canned foods
>> > require fewer preservatives,
>>
>> Wrong. Canned food requires no preservatives.... vacuumed sealed.....
>>
>
>Really?? Read all that fine print on the back of the food can under the
>heading
>of ingredients. ALL foods (human & cat) contain preservatives, flavor
>enhancers,
>color enhancers, etc, etc.
Canned for contains no artificial preservatives. It doesn't need to.
The canning process involves heating to a level where germs to not
survive.
No, multi feeding even tinned food would be bad for the cat. 2 or 3
meals a day is what is needed.
I would think common sense was enough support. Would you eat a dry
diet every day?
>
>In short, the jury seems to be still out on this subject. Research is
>ongoing, but mostly
>conducted by the pet food industry and unfortunatly generally not publicly
>available.
>It seems that this particular debate has been going on since there was a
>choice
>between dry and canned foods (1920's ?) and still there is no clear winner.
>
>I was told by almost eveyone I talked to about FUS/CRF that the causes
>encompass
>very complex areas (like the causes of human cancer), but unlike human
>medicine,
>there are no large databases of veterinary patient data to examine for
>trends, etc.
>
>I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another level
>of
>contention here.....
No need to apologize. Your local vets certainly differ from vets in
the UK, but then they differ on other things as well.
Sensible contributions to the debate should be welcomed by everyone.
>
>Soapbox mode - OFF
>-----
>Mike
>
--
Bob.
If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
Phil P.
Mike Cukr <cu...@massnet1.net> wrote in message
news:SAWp5.13653$Xg.2...@news-east.usenetserver.com...
Not in Nutro. Maybe in your food... Nada preservatives in Nutro
canned.
>
> > but cats tend to like the taste more than
> > > dry and they're likely to eat too much and put on weight. Plus,
any
> > > uneaten food left in the bowl has the potential to spoile.
> >
> > Who leaves canned food out all day????
> >
> > On the other
> > > hand, nutritious dry food can be left out all day, allowing the
cat
> > to
> > > graze as it pleases.
> >
> > Sure! After the cat drops saliva-moistened food back in bowl to
> > ferment all day. Also, dry food is most often fed on an ad libitum
> > feeding pattern, which means the cat nibbles throughout the day
and
> > generally consumes 10 to 20 small meals during a 24-hour period.
> > Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial
(after
> > eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> > transient alkalization of the urine and can promote struvite
crystal
> > formation. This ad libitum feeding pattern attenuates postprandial
> > alkalization of the urine. Periods of high urine pH allow
> > sufficient time for crystal accretion.
> >
> Hum, if I read the above correctly ("This ad libitum feeding pattern
> attenuates postprandial alkalization of the urine.") a lot of
small
> meals reduces the
> size and duration of the pH excursions?
Feeding all day keeps the urine constantly alkaline. Larger meals
increase pH more than ad libitum, but enough time passes between meals
for the cat's natural acidity to return to dissolve struvite. Struvite
forms when urine is not sufficiently acidified or not enough time has
elapsed for natural acidity to return. Ever wonder why struvite
crystals are sometimes found in acidic urine? The presence of
crystals in acid urine indicates that insufficient time has elapsed
for crystals to dissolve.
So you must be feeding your
> kitty(s)
> 10 to 20 small meals of canned food spread out over a 24-hour
> peroid........??
Twice a day. The small amount of dry stays out for a couple of hours.
>
> Like Rechelle, I contacted a number of local vets (14 in all) and
the
> majority
> of them (11 vs 3) recommended dry foods (one of them recommended
'natural'
> foods
> ie raw veggies & meat,
Raw vegetables for cats???? err, you need a new vet.... cats don't
digest starch very well unless its cooked... You didn't speak to
Dave's uncle vet did you ...errr, Mike?
Anecdotal tripe snipped
>
> In short, the jury seems to be still out on this subject. Research
is
> ongoing, but mostly
> conducted by the pet food industry and unfortunatly generally not
publicly
> available.
Hardy. Research is mostly conducted by veterinary universities....
>
> there are no large databases of veterinary patient data to examine
for
> trends, etc.
Never heard of the Veterinary Medical Database at Purdue, have you????
>
> I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another
level
> of
> contention here.....
Not at all. You didn't state any refuting facts to anything I posted.
An excellent post... for a first time poster.. to any newsgroup....
Phil.
Mike Cukr
"Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
news:bebgqsgk3h1imaj6d...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:31:33 -0400, "Mike Cukr" <cu...@massnet1.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
> >news:4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >>
> >> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
> >> news:39A70D07...@swbell.net...
> >
> >I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another
level
> >of
> >contention here.....
>
> No need to apologize. Your local vets certainly differ from vets in
> the UK, but then they differ on other things as well.
>
> Sensible contributions to the debate should be welcomed by everyone.
> >
> >Soapbox mode - OFF
> >-----
> >Mike
> >
> --
> Bob.
>
> If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
Thank you Bob.....I should have mentioned that I'm form the US (I also
forget
what the first two W's in WWW mean).
Given that there's a unanimous opinion on the part of the UK posters (and
vets)
regarding canned food, I can only surmise that there is good reason for
this. It may
simply be that there is a big difference in the quality of the two types of
foods in the
UK, where here that difference doesn't seem to exist. There may also be big
differences in quality between what's offered in the UK vs the US.
I wasn't able to find anyone (on the Web) that offered imported pet foods
from the UK (I'll have to ask why that is), so I'm not able to check this
myself.
In the US there is a long standing predjudice against canned pet foods (cat
& d*g)
dating from the post WWII years, when the makers were cutting all sorts of
corners
(quality wise) to meet demand, and dry kibble, no doubt, seemed a safer bet
at the
time.
As for other things, very few of us understand the cultural differences
between us and
how that colors our view points. We think we know, because of a common
language,
but the simple truth is we don't.
---
Mike
"We are two great peoples, seperated by a common language"
(Winston Churchill - A Speach Before US Congress c. 1946)
Rechelle Blair
Here are the creditieals for each vet, I tend to believe them & my vet & my
experience & my instructors over people who I have no idea who they are from
the 'net.
Daniel Carey, DVM is a director of technical communications in research and
development at IAMS Co., Dayton, Ohio
Rebecca Remillard DVM, PhD. is a board certified veterinarian nutritionist
who practices at Angell Memorial Animal Hospital, Boston
Rolan Tripp DVM, is an affiliate professor of Applied Animal Behaviour at
Colorade State University School, Ft. Collins, Colorado
Y'all be the judge here, people who make their living studying the
nutritional *facts* for cats or people who are on the 'net who we can't
verify actual *solid* creditials of.
Sincerely,
Rechelle
Mike Cukr
ad libitum feeding?
>
>
> So you must be feeding your
> > kitty(s)
> > 10 to 20 small meals of canned food spread out over a 24-hour
> > peroid........??
>
> Twice a day. The small amount of dry stays out for a couple of hours.
>
>
> >
> > Like Rechelle, I contacted a number of local vets (14 in all) and
> the
> > majority
> > of them (11 vs 3) recommended dry foods (one of them recommended
> 'natural'
> > foods
> > ie raw veggies & meat,
>
> Raw vegetables for cats???? err, you need a new vet.... cats don't
> digest starch very well unless its cooked... You didn't speak to
> Dave's uncle vet did you ...errr, Mike?
>
say?.
I live in Detroit metro area and picked vets at random from all over area (I
didn't
call my vet as I already knew what her opinion was). I did this a while
back
when this thread first started just to satisfy my own curiosity (my vet
could be
wrong).
> Anecdotal tripe snipped
>
> >
> > In short, the jury seems to be still out on this subject. Research
> is
> > ongoing, but mostly
> > conducted by the pet food industry and unfortunatly generally not
> publicly
> > available.
>
> Hardy. Research is mostly conducted by veterinary universities....
>
> >
> > there are no large databases of veterinary patient data to examine
> for
> > trends, etc.
>
> Never heard of the Veterinary Medical Database at Purdue, have you????
Glasgow).
I was given to understand that vet participation was voluntary and they are
somewhat regional in nature. I could be mistaken.....
>
> >
> > I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another
> level
> > of
> > contention here.....
>
> Not at all. You didn't state any refuting facts to anything I posted.
> An excellent post... for a first time poster.. to any newsgroup....
Too much seemingly contradictory information floating around, it's hard
to know what true and what's not. Alas I don't have access to medical
data anymore, so I can't really check for myself.
>
> Phil.
---
Mike
Phil P.
ibidem <ibi...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:39A758...@coldcuts.worldnet.att.net...
> Celia Grey wrote:
> >
> > In article
<4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> > "Phil P." <maxs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > > Feeding releases bicarbonate which is called a "postprandial
(after
> > > eating) alkaline tide". This postprandial alkaline tide causes
> > > transient alkalinization of the urine and can promote struvite
crystal
> > >
> > Uh, people might get more help from your info, Phil, if you posted
it
> > in understandable language. Even intelligent, educated people
don't
> > necessarily understand your vet terminology. That's one of the
things
> > I've learned as a lawyer - "No client wants to hear fancy legal
terms,
> > when plain english will do!" ;)
>
> Celia, I rather suspect that if he said what he meant, people would
> discover that much of what he says is self-serving fraudulent
egotism,
> rather than useful information.
Hey jerk, everything I've said about about dry food is backed up by
scientific controlled studies... all you spew is unsupported, crap
because you're either to lazy or inept to research yourself. You
have not once posted a single fact! LOL!
Instead of dismally failing to discredit me, why don't you try
producing some facts that refute my posts??? ...because you can't!
LOL!!! Lame!
> My apologies for attacking that frigging idiot on the end of your
post,
> but how many blasted vets can contradict him before we realize
"pass"
> is full of it up to his eyebrows?
Words of wit from the paranoid whimp of usenet.... Still with no
facts.... just crap.
Paul, you're an asshole. You've always been one, and you'll always be
one. You're a loser.
Produce *facts* Chump! You have NONE!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
You still LOSE!!! LOL!!!
Phil
Phil P.
<e...@nickennui.net> wrote in message
news:39A75DD0...@nickennui.net...
>
> Most people want facts, and reasonable discussion,
> not tilted info, and childish trollish language and
> name-calling directed
> at people for no reason other than they haven't fully
> endorsed a non-professional's personal leaning -- much
> less forever and ever like a personal vendeta.
>
> Everyone on the planet knows credentials don't necessarily
> mean supreme knowledge, and that there is good and bad everywhere.
> To pass them off in alllllll cases as meaningless is certainly
> unfounded.
>
> It all naturally takes away from one's ability to believe
> in anything the person says.
>
> All in all, it simply reproves basic fact.
> Just because someone has a pet, or whatever degree experience,
> doesn't mean they don't have psychological problems.
>
>
> ibidem wrote:
> >
> >
Phil P.
> Phil P. wrote:
> > Credentials don't always mean credibility. One can exisit without
the
> > other.
>
> One gets the impression that "phil pass" eats professional
> veterinarians for breakfast.
Just the inept and incompetent ones.... you're type; like the ones
who give rabies and FeLV vaccinations between the shoulders....and
euthanize cats based on a single ELISA positive test... you know,
your kind of vets.
>Or pretends he does. Or thinks he does.
No credentials, just facts. You have NEITHER!! LMAO!!!
> Credentials do rather assist credibility, and this sorry pretender
has
> none.
I have a hell of lot more than credibility than you, chump! You
havn't been able to support a SINGLE statement you've EVER made!!!
You didn't even know a cat's liver regererates!!! LOL!!! You accused
Gerry of being Bob - and Gerry is in Canada!!! LOL!! What a fool!!!
You proudly spewed "a lot of carbohydrates aren't good for a cat" but
never bothered to learn that dry food contains 35% carbohydrates!!!
....and cats don't need ANY carbohydrates!!! LMAO!!! You're such a
fool!! LOL! (My sides are hurting from laughing at you)
You *are* a fool! Really. No sarcasm. Lets see some *facts*, fool.
This is your standard game... when you CAN'T WIN with facts, you make
it personal... AND YOU STILL LOSE!!! ROTFLMAO!!!! What's it feel
like to LOSE on TWO fronts??? LMAO!!!
Tell us what its like being a paranoid, loser and a fool... we can all
use a good laugh!!! That's *all* you are!!!
Come on, chump, lets see some scientific facts that refute ANYTHING I
said about your cereal.... Weazle out of this.... you're good at
that! LMAO!
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Phil
Alley Cat
>
> It may simply be that there is a big difference in the quality
> of the two types of foods in the UK, where here that difference
> doesn't seem to exist.
No, I don't think so. I've never seen any suggestion that our dry foods
are anything but nutritionally perfectly sound. I think the crux of the
matter is that I don't think the majority of our vets have ever been
convinced that dry food doesn't cause problems, and have passed those
reservations on to their clients.
Certainly none of the vets I've ever had has been happy to recommend a
dry only diet. Their advice has always been to feed predominantly
canned with just a handful of dry a day for their teeth. My current vet
goes so far as to say that he believes the dangers of dry food so
strongly outweigh the possible teeth problems that he advises not to
feed any dry food at all. He reinforces the advice by telling me that
he never feeds his own cats dry food because every cat he has to treat
for UT problems is on a dry diet.
If most British cat owners are being told similar warnings by their vets
I think that explains why we buy so much more canned than dry foods.
> There may also be big differences in quality between what's
> offered in the UK vs the US.
>From what I've read I think that *is* very possible. Our pet food
manufacturers have a code of practice that stipulates they only use
ingredients classified as fit for human consumption. Several years
before the human food manufacturers stopped using parts of the cow
because of the CJD risk, our pet food manufacturers voluntarily withdrew
those ingredients from our pet foods. Our cats and dogs were being
protected from the risk of CJD long before our humans were.
Alley Cat
Phil P.
> Hmmm, Paul & anyone else,
>
> Here are the creditieals for each vet, I tend to believe them & my
vet & my
> experience & my instructors over people who I have no idea who they
are from
> the 'net.
>
> Daniel Carey, DVM is a director of technical communications in
research and
> development at IAMS Co., Dayton, Ohio
>
> Rebecca Remillard DVM, PhD. is a board certified veterinarian
nutritionist
> who practices at Angell Memorial Animal Hospital, Boston
>
> Rolan Tripp DVM, is an affiliate professor of Applied Animal
Behaviour at
> Colorade State University School, Ft. Collins, Colorado
Hmmmm. Unforfunately, Drs. Remillard, Tripp, & Carey article is *not*
based on clinical, controlled studies, at least none are listed or
cited or found. Sadly, their opinions have not made it passed the
peer-review process or into *any* veterinary medical journals or
texts. Such an earth-shattering discovery, if it were true, would be
published in every medical journal and text from A to Z. Neither Drs.
Remillard, Tripp, & Carey opinions, statements and deducements
regarding canned/dry food are anywhere to be found in veterinary
literature (including over 6,000,000 journal references). However,
there are quite a few studies that associate cystitis, FUS,
crystalluria, urolithiasis and urinary tract obstruction with the
comsumption of dry food.
Anyone can write an article for a web site; making it into a medical
text or journal is quite another matter. Drs. Remillard, Tripp, &
Carey have not.
>
>
> Y'all be the judge here, people who make their living studying the
> nutritional *facts* for cats or people who are on the 'net who we
can't
> verify actual *solid* creditials of.
Absolutely! How are these credentials?
"An increased risk of FUS has been reported in cats fed exclusively
dry food, and the same or less risk has been observed in those fed
canned and other types of foods. An analysis of these data has
suggested a dose-response effect on risk with regard to feeding dry
food."
Delmar R. Finco, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Department of Physiology and Pharmacology,
College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, Athens, Georgia
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"Because of the risk of urethral obstruction in male cats, we
recommend that they be fed a canned diet designed to decrease urine
pH. Although a dry diet similarly formulated should inhibit struvite
formation, we have found dry foods to be less efficacious than canned
foods. Benefits of increased water intake could include dilution of
any noxious substances in urine, more frequent urination to decrease
bladder contact time with urine, and removal of any excess crystals."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII, p.894, WB Saunders, 2000
"Water intake can be promoted by adding water to dry or canned foods
until urine specific gravity decreases to less than approximately
1.030. Increasing water intake will not create problems for most
animals or owners, however, and may help hasten stone dissolution."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"Diet moisture content is related to the observation that cats fed dry
food drink more water than cats fed canned food but that much of this
water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine volume is lower and
urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food. The urine
concentration of all solutes, including potentially calculogenic
crystalloids, depends on urine volume."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Dennis J. Chew, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
Stephen P. DiBartola, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"Cats fed canned food and meat diets had higher urine volumes and
lower urine specific gravity values than cats fed dry food. In this
study, the ratio of total water to dry matter intake (TH2O/DM) was
higher in cats fed canned than dry diets."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Dennis J. Chew, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"Total water intake and urine volume were greatest in cats fed canned
and lowest in cats fed dry foods, whereas urine specific gravity was
highest in cats fed dry and lowest in those fed canned food . TH2O/DM
was 5.6 on canned, 2.8 on semimoist, and 2.4 on dry food. Cats fed dry
food drank more than six times more water than cats fed canned food,
but much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine
volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry
food."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"It is recommended that canned food be fed to cats with FUS to
increase TH2O/DM and decrease urine specific gravity."
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, Saunders, 1993
"The similar magnesium content and lower caloric density of dry foods
has led to the suggestion that cats eating dry food of lower caloric
density than canned food must consume more food to obtain sufficient
calories and in doing so take in more magnesium, thus predisposing
them to FUS. Reduced digestibility also increases fecal volume,
resulting in more water in the feces and less in the urine."
Textbook of Small Animal Surgery, pp. 1473-1485, Saunders, 1993
All of the above written by:
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Stephen P. DiBartola, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
Delmar R. Finco, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Department of Physiology and Pharmacology,
College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, Athens, Geor.
Dennis J. Chew, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
"The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases
when cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter
intake ratio when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8:
1 whereas on canned foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1. Thus for any
given dry matter intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned
than on dry foods. (National Research Council, Nutrient Requirement
for Cats).
"CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis
occurs
commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or
inappropriate
elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods."
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
"In the presence of macroscopic crystalluria, changing the diet to
dilute the urine without increasing the pH is indicated. Although
crystalluria is usually benign, severe crystalluria may aggravate an
already inflamed bladder. In our most recent study, we found that
nearly 60% of cats ate 100% dry cat food; an additional 17% ate 75% or
more dry food as their total daily intake (Buffington et al, 1997).
This does not mean that dry food consumption causes IC, but it could
mean that dry food consumption unmasks or aggravates the disorder in
cats that are predisposed to it (making it a nutrientsensitive rather
than a diet-induced disease). Consequently, we recommend either adding
water to the dry food or changing to canned foods if this is feasible
for the owner and the cat. Because of the risk of urethral obstruction
in male cats, we recommend that they be fed a canned diet designed to
decrease urine pH. Although a dry diet similarly formulated should
inhibit struvite formation, we have found dry foods to be less
efficacious than canned foods. Benefits of increased water intake
could include dilution of any noxious substances in urine, more
frequent urination to decrease bladder contact time with urine, and
removal of any excess crystals." Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy
XIII, p.894, WB Saunders, 2000
Phil
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Rechelle
star...@myhome.net
Starleen
Phil P.
<star...@myhome.net> wrote in message
news:39aba46d...@news.i-link-2.net...
> Where do you suggest they give rabies and FeLV vaccinations?
> Starleen
Vaccines containing feline leukemia virus antigen (with or without
other antigens, except rabies virus antigen) should be administered in
the left hind leg as distally as practical, according to
manufacturer's recommendations.
Vaccines containing rabies virus antigen (and any other antigens)
should be administered in the right hind leg as distally as practical,
according to manufacturer's recommendations.
Phil
Alley Cat
> Daniel Carey, DVM is a director of technical communications
> in research and development at IAMS Co., Dayton, Ohio
You're not seriously expecting us to accept that someone who works for
IAMS is unbiased on this particular topic, are you?
Alley Cat
Phil P.
Just Bud <the...@san.rxyzr.com> wrote in message
news:adahqso0ns5u9a328...@4ax.com...
> Alley Cat <alle...@virgin.net> hollered from the outhouse...
>
> >Every vet I've known has disagreed with free feeding precisely
because
> >
> >a) they recommend canned food and canned food should not be left
out all
> > day. Having said that, I recently read an article in a magazine
> > which said recent research suggested that dry food breeds
bacteria
> > also if left out for long periods, but I'm not sure I can now
find
> > that article so I'm not going to actually argue that one.
>
there
> long enough to grow bacteria.
>
> I leave out dry food for Nick, about as much as I expect him to eat
in
> the next 12-18 hours. If he doesn't eat it in that time, I don't
refill the
> bowl til it's almost empty, I DON'T put 3-4 cups out at once.
>
> >b) free feeding too easily leads to a fat cat
>
> physical or emotional problems involved.
>
> >c) free feeding is totally unnecesary and many vets believe it's
> > actually unhealthy to allow a cat to continually feed without
> > giving its digestive system a break to do its work.
>
American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Seattle 2000 Oral &
Poster Abstracts
DIET AND LIFESTYLE VARIABLES AS RISK FACTORS FOR RENAL DISEASE IN PET
CATS.
M.R. Slater, W.J. Burkholder, C. Fitzgerald.
Texas A&M University, College Station, TX.
"For both models, increasing fiber was associated with a decrease in
risk of renal disease. Similarly, being fed ad libitum increased the
likelihood of renal disease."
Phil
>
>
> > My vetwould tell you that he's seen a considerable increase in
feline
> > digestive disorders since free feeding became a trend.
>
> And for every Vet that says that, 10 will say they HAVEN'T seen any
such thing.
>
> > Would you consider it sensible to allow a child to eat non-stop
> > throughout the day if it wanted to?
>
> Cats aren't people.
>
> >Canned foods require NO preservatives. I just checked the label of
> >three brands of canned cat food we have in the cupboard. Over here
> >we're governed by EEC food laws which mean that anything with
> >preservatives must say "Contains EEC permitted preservatives".
None of
> >the three cans says this which means they do not contain *any*
> >preservatives.
>
> Some items that work as preservatives ALSO supply trace nutrients,
so
> they're often listed as performing that function, rather than being
listed
> as ONLY a preservative. Check the list of ingredients, then do a
web
> search on each that you're not sure of.
>
>
>
>
> To reply by email, remove the XYZ.
>
> Lumber Cartel (tinlc) #2063. Spam this account at your own risk.
Phil P.
> "Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> hollered from the outhouse...
>
> > However, there are quite a few studies that associate cystitis,
FUS,
> >crystalluria, urolithiasis and urinary tract obstruction with the
> >comsumption of dry food.
>
>
> Modern dry food formulas have been changed to prevent crystal
formation
> and it's now perfectly safe for most cats.
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
Clinical evaluation of cats with nonobstructive urinary tract
diseases.
Buffington CA, Chew DJ, Kendall MS, Scrivani PV, Thompson SB,
Blaisdell JL,
Woodworth BE
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary
Medicine,
Ohio State University, Columbus 43210, USA.
"CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis
occurs
commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or
inappropriate
elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Because of the risk of urethral obstruction in male cats, we
recommend that they be fed a canned diet designed to decrease urine
pH. Although a dry diet similarly formulated should inhibit struvite
formation, we have found dry foods to be less efficacious than canned
foods."
"In our most recent study, we found that nearly 60% of cats ate 100%
dry cat food; an additional 17% ate 75% or more dry food as their
total daily intake" (Buffington et al, 1997)
Dennis J. Chew, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio
State University, Columbus, Ohio
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
Excerpted from Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII, WB Saunders,
2000
Phil.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>Alley Cat <alle...@virgin.net> hollered from the outhouse...
>
>>Every vet I've known has disagreed with free feeding precisely because
>>
>>a) they recommend canned food and canned food should not be left out all
>> day. Having said that, I recently read an article in a magazine
>> which said recent research suggested that dry food breeds bacteria
>> also if left out for long periods, but I'm not sure I can now find
>> that article so I'm not going to actually argue that one.
>
>The trick to 'free feeding' is NOT to leave out enough so that it is there
>long enough to grow bacteria.
>
>I leave out dry food for Nick, about as much as I expect him to eat in
>the next 12-18 hours. If he doesn't eat it in that time, I don't refill the
>bowl til it's almost empty, I DON'T put 3-4 cups out at once.
>
>>b) free feeding too easily leads to a fat cat
>
>Few cats left to eat on their own schedule get fat, unless there are
>physical or emotional problems involved.
This is true of cats fed tinned food, but far from true with dry food.
A large part of the "full - hungry" response depends on how full the
stomach is. With dry food a full tum will result in a very overfeed
cat.
>
>>c) free feeding is totally unnecesary and many vets believe it's
>> actually unhealthy to allow a cat to continually feed without
>> giving its digestive system a break to do its work.
>
>That's ludicrous.
It is true, look at Phil's post in relation to the pH cycle in free
fed cats.
>
>
>> My vetwould tell you that he's seen a considerable increase in feline
>> digestive disorders since free feeding became a trend.
>
>And for every Vet that says that, 10 will say they HAVEN'T seen any such thing.
Don't think so. In the UK most vets would not advocate free feeding
because most of them would recommend no more than 30% dry food anyway.
>
>> Would you consider it sensible to allow a child to eat non-stop
>> throughout the day if it wanted to?
>
>Cats aren't people.
The difference?
>
>>Canned foods require NO preservatives. I just checked the label of
>>three brands of canned cat food we have in the cupboard. Over here
>>we're governed by EEC food laws which mean that anything with
>>preservatives must say "Contains EEC permitted preservatives". None of
>>the three cans says this which means they do not contain *any*
>>preservatives.
>
>Some items that work as preservatives ALSO supply trace nutrients, so
>they're often listed as performing that function, rather than being listed
>as ONLY a preservative. Check the list of ingredients, then do a web
>search on each that you're not sure of.
Tinned food has to be heated to a very high temperature prior to
sealing, this makes it unnecessary to add preservatives.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>
>"Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
>news:bebgqsgk3h1imaj6d...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:31:33 -0400, "Mike Cukr" <cu...@massnet1.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
>> >news:4xFp5.2952$Q36.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> >>
>> >> Rechelle Blair <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:39A70D07...@swbell.net...
>> >
>-------SNIP No reason to repeat all of that
>
>> >I apologize for the long winded post and I hope I didn't add another
>level
>> >of
>> >contention here.....
>>
>> No need to apologize. Your local vets certainly differ from vets in
>> the UK, but then they differ on other things as well.
>>
>> Sensible contributions to the debate should be welcomed by everyone.
>> >
>> >Soapbox mode - OFF
>> >-----
>> >Mike
>> >
>> --
>> Bob.
>>
>> If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
>
>Thank you Bob.....I should have mentioned that I'm form the US (I also
>forget
>what the first two W's in WWW mean).
>
>Given that there's a unanimous opinion on the part of the UK posters (and
>vets)
>regarding canned food, I can only surmise that there is good reason for
>this. It may
>simply be that there is a big difference in the quality of the two types of
>foods in the
>UK, where here that difference doesn't seem to exist. There may also be big
>differences in quality between what's offered in the UK vs the US.
>I wasn't able to find anyone (on the Web) that offered imported pet foods
>from the UK (I'll have to ask why that is), so I'm not able to check this
>myself.
I think you will find there is little or no difference. A few years
ago there was because there was a lot of beef sold to the pet industry
by the EEC to reduce what was known as the beef mountain.
However, these days pet food is an international business. I'm sure
all of the main names make food from exactly the same recipes
throughout the world.
>
>In the US there is a long standing predjudice against canned pet foods (cat
>& d*g)
>dating from the post WWII years, when the makers were cutting all sorts of
>corners
>(quality wise) to meet demand, and dry kibble, no doubt, seemed a safer bet
>at the
>time.
Mmmm. The only thing I can think is that the canning process was
wrong. Tin did go through the rook in the 50s and 60s so some canning
people cut the thickness of tin which, given that a meat based food is
rather acid, could have led to tainting of the food in prolonged
storage.
>
>As for other things, very few of us understand the cultural differences
>between us and
>how that colors our view points. We think we know, because of a common
>language,
>but the simple truth is we don't.
Last week I had a long chat with one of our vets, we happened to be at
a meeting to talk about the new traffic safety scheme we are gradually
getting into place (making it safer for cats, kids and other
wildlife). Anyway, we talked about the difference in neutering
practice between the UK and the USA. In the UK it is rare for a vet to
neuter a cat under 6 months old, while in the states it is becoming
common to do it earlier.
Her comments were that the practice is growing in the UK, but very
slowly. Her main argument was that there was a large increase in the
dangers from using anesthetics the smaller the animal was, and while
techniques had improved there was no benefit to early neutering so why
do it.
The UK sticks with its tried an proven way, the USA is being watched,
maybe we will follow maybe we will not.
But returning to food, I think what we take on board is that nobody
could hold that a dry food diet is remotely natural, both in its
presentation (what cat in the wild would eat dry food) and in its
content (far to much vegetable material).
>---
>Mike
>
>"We are two great peoples, seperated by a common language"
>(Winston Churchill - A Speach Before US Congress c. 1946)
--
Bob.
"We are one great people, separated by a small argument in 1776" Bob
Brenchley - a sig file on Alt.Cats, August 2000. :)
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> hollered from the outhouse...
>
>> However, there are quite a few studies that associate cystitis, FUS,
>>crystalluria, urolithiasis and urinary tract obstruction with the
>>comsumption of dry food.
>
>Sure are, IF you go back 10 years or more.
>
>Modern dry food formulas have been changed to prevent crystal formation
>and it's now perfectly safe for most cats.
>
Indeed, a few years ago dry foods vanished from most shelves in the UK
the scare about urinary tract problems became so great. But new
formulation have improved things, and sadly sales are going back up.
Sadly because even though the formulas were changed, they missed the
prime problem, that dry food is not natural for a cat and never can
be.
Rechelle Blair
Out of curiousty and something I've been meaning to ask for awhile. Do
any of these have dates? What I'm wondering is how current it is and what
foods they use to test and determine this with. Out of all the cats I've
owned, worked with and seen at the shelter, I've never seen a cat with a
blockage. And all of these cats have been fed a dry food diet strictly.
The one cat that I've known with a soft food diet (Cindy) had constant
urinary tract infections, rotten teeth and poor health. It's quite the
opposite now that she's on a dry food diet with the occassional canned
food treat.
Sincerely,
Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
food company.
Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
you've pretty much summed it up.
Just Bud wrote:
> Alley Cat <alle...@virgin.net> hollered from the outhouse...
>
> >Every vet I've known has disagreed with free feeding precisely because
> >
> >a) they recommend canned food and canned food should not be left out all
> > day. Having said that, I recently read an article in a magazine
> > which said recent research suggested that dry food breeds bacteria
> > also if left out for long periods, but I'm not sure I can now find
> > that article so I'm not going to actually argue that one.
>
> The trick to 'free feeding' is NOT to leave out enough so that it is there
> long enough to grow bacteria.
>
> I leave out dry food for Nick, about as much as I expect him to eat in
> the next 12-18 hours. If he doesn't eat it in that time, I don't refill the
> bowl til it's almost empty, I DON'T put 3-4 cups out at once.
>
> >b) free feeding too easily leads to a fat cat
>
> Few cats left to eat on their own schedule get fat, unless there are
> physical or emotional problems involved.
>
> >c) free feeding is totally unnecesary and many vets believe it's
> > actually unhealthy to allow a cat to continually feed without
> > giving its digestive system a break to do its work.
>
> That's ludicrous.
>
> > My vetwould tell you that he's seen a considerable increase in feline
> > digestive disorders since free feeding became a trend.
>
> And for every Vet that says that, 10 will say they HAVEN'T seen any such thing.
>
> > Would you consider it sensible to allow a child to eat non-stop
> > throughout the day if it wanted to?
>
> Cats aren't people.
>
> >Canned foods require NO preservatives. I just checked the label of
> >three brands of canned cat food we have in the cupboard. Over here
> >we're governed by EEC food laws which mean that anything with
> >preservatives must say "Contains EEC permitted preservatives". None of
> >the three cans says this which means they do not contain *any*
> >preservatives.
>
> Some items that work as preservatives ALSO supply trace nutrients, so
> they're often listed as performing that function, rather than being listed
> as ONLY a preservative. Check the list of ingredients, then do a web
> search on each that you're not sure of.
>
Phil P.
> Phil,
>
> Out of curiousty and something I've been meaning to ask for awhile.
Do
> any of these have dates? What I'm wondering is how current it is
and what
> foods they use to test and determine this with.
The journal dates were posted. 1997 was the last study and published
in the lastest Kirk's 2000 and 1997 Journal of the Veterinary Medical
Association. To eliminate bias towards or against the manufactures,
the food used was listed as just "premium".
"CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis
occurs commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or
inappropriate elimination and is associated with consumption of dry
foods."
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
Out of all the cats I've
> owned, worked with and seen at the shelter,
I've never seen a cat with a
> blockage. And all of these cats have been fed a dry food diet
strictly.
Rechelle, this is usenet and you or anyone can claim just about
anything you like to support your position. That's why I supply
*verifiable references*. I work in a shelter, also, and the *only*
cats (male) that blocked were cats feed dry food. Similarly, most of
the posts in newsgroups about blocked cats, are about cats fed dry
food and canned food is almost invariably prescribed as therapy.
"Because of the risk of urethral obstruction in male cats, we
recommend that they be fed a canned diet designed to decrease urine
pH. Although a dry diet similarly formulated should inhibit struvite
formation, we have found dry foods to be less
efficacious than canned foods." Kirk's Current Veterinry Therapy
XIII, 2000
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate
Professor, Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary
Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service,
Veterinary Teaching Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus,
Ohio
> The one cat that I've known with a soft food diet (Cindy) had
constant
> urinary tract infections, rotten teeth and poor health.
Infections of the bladder most commonly ascend there, meaning
literally, they crawl up from outside. Therefore, female cats more
commonly experience this condition as the infection has a shorter
distance to travel.
It's quite the
> opposite now that she's on a dry food diet with the occassional
canned
> food treat.
Rechelle, this is usenet and you or anyone can claim just about
anything you like to support your position. That's why I supply
verifiable *references*. There is *nothing* in veterinary literature,
which includes over 6,000,000 journal studies, and the lastest top
shelf veterinary texts, that supports your claim. Perhaps, I missed
it and would very much appreciate your citing the peer-reviewed
journal or veterinary text that associates urinary tract infections
and poor health with canned food.... The only studies concerning FUS,
Cystitis, and urolithiasis, all seem to associate these conditions
with the consumption of dry food.
If you're having good luck with your present diet, by all means, don't
change it!
Phil
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Nope Alley Cat, but the other 2 have no stake in IAMS or any other cat
>food company.
Then explain why their opinion is so at odds with both the majority
and common sense?
>
>
>Rechelle
--
Bob.
Are part-time band leaders semi-conductors?
zuz...@webtv.net
error, but everything else I said stands.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=244574&Auth=false
zuz...@webtv.net
>Out of all the cats I've owned, worked
>with and seen at the shelter, I've never
>seen a cat with a blockage. And all of
>these cats have been fed a dry food diet
>strictly.
consist of a "sample population." And what limited things you "might"
see during a couple of hours at a shelter each week, where cats are
coming and going, doesn't qualify anything, either.
>The one cat that I've known with a soft
>food diet (Cindy) had constant urinary
>tract infections, rotten teeth and poor
>health. It's quite the opposite now that
>she's on a dry food diet with the
>occassional canned food treat.
Ya know, Rechelle, the funny thing about lies is that they eventually
catch up with you. This lesson has been pounded nto you time and time
again, and you still have learned nothing(not that I'm surprised) and
keep getting caught:
alt.animals.felines
Monday, July 31, 2000 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Siamese Health Problems?
Rechelle wrote:
>Kelly,
>Gotta comment here. *smile* Cindy's a
>Siamese/Burmese cross and in 17 almost
>18 years she's had 2 URI's and both were
>relatively mild
"Constant" is not considered to be two URI's in 18 years. Your so called
facts and exaggerations are as bloated and worthless as the pictures of
you in your wedding album. Time and time again you twist facts, or just
make them up, to suit your needs, and frankly, not only is it sickening
to read the constant drivel you come up with, but is also very
irresponsible on your part to keep posting this bullshit. I imagine you
still maintain that Iguana's will only grow to the size of their cage as
well, although it has been refuted by people expert in the field. You
are a really sad piece of work. And a LIAR.
Rechelle Blair
to the many vets I've spoken on the phone with, they agree with this. So,
from who I've spoken to, it isn't going against the majority or common
sense. My cats adore their hard food, and eat it happily, even the 17 year
old who has no more teeth (too bad they don't make dentures for cats!*G*)
eats it happily.
Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
zuz...@webtv.net wrote:
> Rechelle wrote:
> >Out of all the cats I've owned, worked
> >with and seen at the shelter, I've never
> >seen a cat with a blockage. And all of
> >these cats have been fed a dry food diet
> >strictly.
> You're what- 26? You hardly qualify as having owned enough cats to
> consist of a "sample population." And what limited things you "might"
> see during a couple of hours at a shelter each week, where cats are
> coming and going, doesn't qualify anything, either.
Ok I'll bow down to that Megan.
>
> >The one cat that I've known with a soft
> >food diet (Cindy) had constant urinary
> >tract infections, rotten teeth and poor
> >health. It's quite the opposite now that
> >she's on a dry food diet with the
> >occassional canned food treat.
>
> Ya know, Rechelle, the funny thing about lies is that they eventually
> catch up with you. This lesson has been pounded nto you time and time
> again, and you still have learned nothing(not that I'm surprised) and
> keep getting caught:
>
> alt.animals.felines
> Monday, July 31, 2000 3:22 PM
> Subject: Re: Siamese Health Problems?
> Rechelle wrote:
> >Kelly,
> >Gotta comment here. *smile* Cindy's a
> >Siamese/Burmese cross and in 17 almost
> >18 years she's had 2 URI's and both were
> >relatively mild
>
> "Constant" is not considered to be two URI's in 18 years.
By constant I was referring to UTI's not URI's Megan. She would suffer from
them all the time, being on anti-biotics for at least 6 months a year off &
on. Since we switched to premium foods and took away the soft food 6 months
later, we haven't had a single UTI here. All the cats are in perfect
health, Ebby's IBS isn't as bad, Cindy doesn't get the UTI's and Shadow,
well other than ringworm, fleas & worms, he's never been sick a day in his
life.
> Your so called
> facts and exaggerations are as bloated and worthless as the pictures of
> you in your wedding album. Time and time again you twist facts, or just
> make them up, to suit your needs, and frankly, not only is it sickening
> to read the constant drivel you come up with, but is also very
> irresponsible on your part to keep posting this bullshit. I imagine you
> still maintain that Iguana's will only grow to the size of their cage as
> well, although it has been refuted by people expert in the field. You
> are a really sad piece of work. And a LIAR.
>
Tsk, tsk Megan, I thought you were mature enough to not hold onto ERRORS
I've made in the past. I've already admitted that I was in error there.
You must've missed that somehow. I really wish you'ld plonk me, life would
be much less stressful for you.
Rechelle
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>Bob, according to my vets, dry food only is perfectly fine & safe.
Then they are wrong.
>According to the many vets I've spoken on the phone with, they agree with this.
Then they are wrong.
>So, from who I've spoken to, it isn't going against the majority
It is.
>or common sense.
Now that, Rechelle, coming from you, really takes the biscuits. You
wouldn't know common sense if it jumped up and bit you.
Plain simple common sense tells you that a cat, evolved for millions
of years to eat fresh killed meat, cannot possibly be better off with
dry food. Where in the wild will any cat eat dry food?
Add to this the simple fact that cats need meat - just meat - not
large proportions of vegetable matter.
>My cats adore their hard food, and eat it happily, even the 17 year
>old who has no more teeth (too bad they don't make dentures for cats!*G*)
>eats it happily.
You really are a sadistic person. Feeding dry food to a toothless cat.
Do you whip him and then rub salt into his wounds? How can you ill
treat a cat like that?
--
Bob.
After the government takes enough to balance the budget, the taxpayer
has the job of budgeting the balance.
Rechelle Blair
"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:50:09 -0500, Rechelle Blair
> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Bob, according to my vets, dry food only is perfectly fine & safe.
>
> Then they are wrong.
What makes you an expert Bob? I don't see a DVM behind your name, so therefore, you
aren't one. I'll believe my vets & the vets I've spoken with over you or even Phil
a man whom I do respect.
>
>
>
> >According to the many vets I've spoken on the phone with, they agree with this.
>
> Then they are wrong.
Same thing as above Bob.
>
>
> >So, from who I've spoken to, it isn't going against the majority
>
> It is.
>
> >or common sense.
>
> Now that, Rechelle, coming from you, really takes the biscuits. You
> wouldn't know common sense if it jumped up and bit you.
>
> Plain simple common sense tells you that a cat, evolved for millions
> of years to eat fresh killed meat, cannot possibly be better off with
> dry food. Where in the wild will any cat eat dry food?
>
> Add to this the simple fact that cats need meat - just meat - not
> large proportions of vegetable matter.
>
And in most dry food, the meat is much higher in proportion than the vegetable
matter. At least it is in Nutro.
>
> >M0y cats adore their hard food, and eat it happily, even the 17 year
> >old who has no more teeth (too bad they don't make dentures for cats!*G*)
> >eats it happily.
>
> You really are a sadistic person. Feeding dry food to a toothless cat.
> Do you whip him and then rub salt into his wounds? How can you ill
> treat a cat like that?
Treat a cat like what? She eats it more willingly than the soft food I offer her 2
to 3 times a week. She does NOT like soft food anymore. I am feeding her what she
likes and what she's gained 1.5 lbs on since we started her on it last year. It
doesn't affect her eating at all. She never vomits, never stops eating or
anything. If I had one reason to believe that she needed canned food I would feed
it to her in a heartbeat! But I don't. And my vet agrees, she is improving on her
hard food diet.
You are the sadistic bastard who free breeds your moggies and lets them get run over
by cars or harmed by other animals, humans included.
Rechelle
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:50:09 -0500, Rechelle Blair
>> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Bob, according to my vets, dry food only is perfectly fine & safe.
>>
>> Then they are wrong.
>
>What makes you an expert Bob? I don't see a DVM behind your name, so therefore, you
>aren't one. I'll believe my vets & the vets I've spoken with over you or even Phil
>a man whom I do respect.
>
>>
>
>>
>>
>> >According to the many vets I've spoken on the phone with, they agree with this.
>>
>> Then they are wrong.
>
>Same thing as above Bob.
You don't have to have DVM qualifications to have a little common
sense.
I know it may be a bit difficult for someone as challenged as you, but
I think if you really put your mind to it your would see how
>
>>
>>
>> >So, from who I've spoken to, it isn't going against the majority
>>
>> It is.
>>
>> >or common sense.
>>
>> Now that, Rechelle, coming from you, really takes the biscuits. You
>> wouldn't know common sense if it jumped up and bit you.
>>
>> Plain simple common sense tells you that a cat, evolved for millions
>> of years to eat fresh killed meat, cannot possibly be better off with
>> dry food. Where in the wild will any cat eat dry food?
>>
>> Add to this the simple fact that cats need meat - just meat - not
>> large proportions of vegetable matter.
>>
>
>And in most dry food, the meat is much higher in proportion than the vegetable
>matter. At least it is in Nutro.
Rechelle, you really must learn to read dear, it is a very important
thing these days.
Tinned food has very little vegetable matter. Cats need very little
vegetable matter in their diet. vegetable matter is only added to dry
food because if they didn't the portions of food would be almost too
small to deal with. Cats seriously overeat on dry food because even
with all this unnecessary vegetable matter the portions as still
small.
Engage what little brain you have and THINK about those facts.
>
>>
>> >M0y cats adore their hard food, and eat it happily, even the 17 year
>> >old who has no more teeth (too bad they don't make dentures for cats!*G*)
>> >eats it happily.
>>
>> You really are a sadistic person. Feeding dry food to a toothless cat.
>> Do you whip him and then rub salt into his wounds? How can you ill
>> treat a cat like that?
>
>Treat a cat like what? She eats it more willingly than the soft food I offer her 2
>to 3 times a week. She does NOT like soft food anymore. I am feeding her what she
>likes and what she's gained 1.5 lbs on since we started her on it last year. It
>doesn't affect her eating at all. She never vomits, never stops eating or
>anything. If I had one reason to believe that she needed canned food I would feed
>it to her in a heartbeat! But I don't. And my vet agrees, she is improving on her
>hard food diet.
You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. You
already admit that she is gaining weight - another obese mog on the
way. Or is this yet another of your made up stories you invent to back
up your views?
>
>You are the sadistic bastard who free breeds your moggies and lets them get run over
>by cars or harmed by other animals, humans included.
I do not "free breed" my cats. I've never had a cat killed by a car.
I've never had a cat hurt by a human. I've only once had a cat injured
by another animal.
You, and you vet, are harming your cat(s). If your vet was in the UK I
would make an official complaint.
>
>Rechelle
Rechelle Blair
"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:15:47 -0500, Rechelle Blair
> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> <rest of garbage snipped>
>
> >Treat a cat like what? She eats it more willingly than the soft food I offer her 2
> >to 3 times a week. She does NOT like soft food anymore. I am feeding her what she
> >likes and what she's gained 1.5 lbs on since we started her on it last year. It
> >doesn't affect her eating at all. She never vomits, never stops eating or
> >anything. If I had one reason to believe that she needed canned food I would feed
> >it to her in a heartbeat! But I don't. And my vet agrees, she is improving on her
> >hard food diet.
>
> You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. You
> already admit that she is gaining weight - another obese mog on the
> way. Or is this yet another of your made up stories you invent to back
> up your views?
Hmm, that's a new one Bob. At 8.3 lbs she's obese now huh? Funny, I can still feel all
her ribs, but they aren't jutting out, hence not anywhere near obese. None of my 3
overeat. You are a fool Bob. Back to the killfile.
Rechelle
Jennifer
Your personal problems should not be oozing into this newsgroup.
<zuz...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20136-39...@storefull-286.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> I made an error and read URI as UTI. My apologies to Rechelle for that
> error, but everything else I said stands.
>
Rechelle Blair
"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:15:47 -0500, Rechelle Blair
> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
> You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. You
> already admit that she is gaining weight - another obese mog on the
> way. Or is this yet another of your made up stories you invent to back
> up your views?
Ok Bob, another question for you. Isn't it more cruel to feed a cat something that she
*hates* over something that she *loves*??? She truly does love her dry food, all of the
babies here do. They turn their noses up at soft food, unless it's a rare treat. So I'm
sorry, but I'll believe MY vet, MY experience and MY cats over your lame ass any day.
Rechelle
zuz...@webtv.net
>Jesus Megan, lay off Rechelle.
BWAAAHAHAHAHA! You're so funny...
When she quits fabricating things and inventing situations to back up
her uninformed assertions, I will. Nothing personal. If you want
personal, do a search on Rechelle and tally how many times "she's"
attacked, accused, and namecalled, mostly without merit. (Hint: you're
gonna need A LOT of paper and a couple of pens).
I am not denying for one second that I flame, but, unlike Rechelle, I
dole out flames only to those who deserve it.
Azion
> Words of wit from the paranoid whimp of usenet.... Still with no
> facts.... just crap.
>
> Paul, you're an asshole. You've always been one, and you'll always be
> one. You're a loser.
>
> Produce *facts* Chump! You have NONE!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
>
> You still LOSE!!! LOL!!!
>
>
> Phil
Boy Phil, this was a real educated and informative reply. Make just want to
run my pets right over to you to be looked after. Gees,
Robert
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:15:47 -0500, Rechelle Blair
>> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>>
>> <rest of garbage snipped>
>
>>
>> >Treat a cat like what? She eats it more willingly than the soft food I offer her 2
>> >to 3 times a week. She does NOT like soft food anymore. I am feeding her what she
>> >likes and what she's gained 1.5 lbs on since we started her on it last year. It
>> >doesn't affect her eating at all. She never vomits, never stops eating or
>> >anything. If I had one reason to believe that she needed canned food I would feed
>> >it to her in a heartbeat! But I don't. And my vet agrees, she is improving on her
>> >hard food diet.
>>
>> You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. You
>> already admit that she is gaining weight - another obese mog on the
>> way. Or is this yet another of your made up stories you invent to back
>> up your views?
>
>Hmm, that's a new one Bob. At 8.3 lbs she's obese now huh? Funny, I can still feel all
>her ribs, but they aren't jutting out, hence not anywhere near obese. None of my 3
>overeat. You are a fool Bob. Back to the killfile.
>
>
>
You do really have a problem with reading the English language don't
you? Notice it said "another obese mog on the way". That means "not
now" it means "in the future". Didn't the teach comprehension at the
school you went to? I know they didn't teach observation, so maybe you
can be excused for not noticing the fleas for all those years in
Alberta. But come on, learn to read or stop abusing usenet.
>Rechelle
>
--
Bob.
Cats-V-Dogs
A dog thinks: Hey, these people I live with feed me, love me, provide
me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me....
They must be Gods!
A cat thinks: Hey, these people I live with feed me, love me, provide
me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me.... I
must be a God!
Bob Brenchley.
<RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>"Bob Brenchley." wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:15:47 -0500, Rechelle Blair
>> <RG_B...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>> You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. You
>> already admit that she is gaining weight - another obese mog on the
>> way. Or is this yet another of your made up stories you invent to back
>> up your views?
>
>Ok Bob, another question for you. Isn't it more cruel to feed a cat something that she
>*hates* over something that she *loves*??? She truly does love her dry food, all of the
>babies here do. They turn their noses up at soft food, unless it's a rare treat. So I'm
>sorry, but I'll believe MY vet, MY experience and MY cats over your lame ass any day.
>
>
>Rechelle
>
You are sadistic to feed a cat with no teeth a dry food diet. That is
the only verdict I can give.
--
Bob.
Why is it that paper is always strongest at the perforations?
Bob Brenchley.
<jenni...@NOSPAM.jump.net> wrote:
>
><zuz...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:20136-39...@storefull-286.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
>> I made an error and read URI as UTI. My apologies to Rechelle for that
>> error, but everything else I said stands.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
>> nothing."
>>
>> -Edmund Burke
>>
>> Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
>> http://www.stopdeclaw.com
>>
>> Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
>> http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=244574&Auth=false
>>
>
Rechelle creates a rod for her own back. If she keeps making things up
she has to face the music sometimes.
--
Bob.
Why doesn't super-glue stick to the inside of the tube?
Azion
> of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words. Otherwise,
> why did you selectively leave out the post I was responding to? Did
> you "miss" that part or doesn't that "count"?
I wasn't concerned about the previous post, I was commenting on your
worhtless reply. The previous post was irrelavent.
> Also, "run my pets right over to you to be looked after"...? I think
> you should run your pets right over to a *vet* to be looked after, and
> not to me.... I'm not a vet. I guess you didn't figure that out,
> either.
I figured you were not a vet, but sometime you are so cocky like you think
you know more than vet.
Enough with this portion of this conversation. Be gone with ya.
I will not follow up to any reply of yours.
Robert
Jennifer
to spend my off work hours researching petty crap.
<zuz...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8290-39A...@storefull-288.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Jennifer wrote:
> >Jesus Megan, lay off Rechelle.
>
> BWAAAHAHAHAHA! You're so funny...
>
> When she quits fabricating things and inventing situations to back up
> her uninformed assertions, I will. Nothing personal. If you want
> personal, do a search on Rechelle and tally how many times "she's"
> attacked, accused, and namecalled, mostly without merit. (Hint: you're
> gonna need A LOT of paper and a couple of pens).
> I am not denying for one second that I flame, but, unlike Rechelle, I
> dole out flames only to those who deserve it.
>
>
Phil P.
Azion <thisa...@none.com> wrote in message
news:k5Sq5.39492$xg1.3...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> >
> > Words of wit from the paranoid whimp of usenet.... Still with no
> > facts.... just crap.
> >
> > Paul, you're an asshole. You've always been one, and you'll always
be
> > one. You're a loser.
> >
> > Produce *facts* Chump! You have NONE!!! ROTFLMAO!!!
> >
> > You still LOSE!!! LOL!!!
> >
> >
> > Phil
>
> Boy Phil, this was a real educated and informative reply. Make just
want to
Boy Robert, either you're a step too slow, or you have an impairment
of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words. Otherwise,
why did you selectively leave out the post I was responding to? Did
you "miss" that part or doesn't that "count"?
Also, "run my pets right over to you to be looked after"...? I think
you should run your pets right over to a *vet* to be looked after, and
not to me.... I'm not a vet. I guess you didn't figure that out,
either.
Have a nice day.
Phil
>
>
> Robert
>
>
Phil P.
> > Boy Robert, either you're a step too slow, or you have an
impairment
> > of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words.
Otherwise,
> > why did you selectively leave out the post I was responding to?
Did
> > you "miss" that part or doesn't that "count"?
> I wasn't concerned about the previous post,
You should be. Maybe then you wouldn't take things out of context and
look ridiculous. LMAO!
I was commenting on your
> worhtless reply.
...and you you think your replies aren't?
>The previous post was irrelavent.
Ever hear of "cause and effect"? No? I didn't think so.
>
> > Also, "run my pets right over to you to be looked after"...? I
think
> > you should run your pets right over to a *vet* to be looked after,
and
> > not to me.... I'm not a vet. I guess you didn't figure that out,
> > either.
>
> I figured you were not a vet, but sometime you are so cocky
Apparently, you can't distinguish *confidence* from "cocky". Not
surprising.
like you think
> you know more than vet.
In some cases, I probably do. One thing's for sure, I certainly know
more than you!
>
> Enough with this portion of this conversation.
I agree. It was boring conversation anyway... that you started. LOL!
Be gone with ya.
> I will not follow up to any reply of yours.
Promise? I hope you mean that. We'll see....
Phil
>
> Robert
>
>