TOAST: One More Step
Denny Wheeler
BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
candidates)
So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
*****CRASH!!*****
-denny-
--
"...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and
welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be
secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism:
'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put
right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
Clovis Man
>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>candidates)
>
>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
>*****CRASH!!*****
****************CRASH****************
--
Clovis Man (aka George Ruch)
"New! Do-it-yourself autopsy kits! Be the first on your block to get one!"
(Stolen with pride from alt.folklore.urban)
Rowan Hawthorn
> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
******CRASH!!******
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Canth
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>candidates)
>
>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
>*****CRASH!!*****
>
>-denny-
I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
him.
What does the US do now if one of those red states decides it cannot
bear being governed by a black president, and tries to secede? Can
your country survive a civil war in this day & age?
saavik
> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
>
> -denny-
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Crassshhh<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margo
John W. Vinson
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>candidates)
>
>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
<<<<CRASH>>>>
--
John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
Harry Mary Andruschak
wrote:
> Racism in the US isn't dead. �But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. �(and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
Does this mean that Blacks will stop blaming the white-controlled
Government for all their problems? I hope so, of course.
Rowan Hawthorn
Probably not - it didn't *really* survive the last one.
PhoenixWench
> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
>
> -denny-
--
PhoenixWench
http://slywlf.livejournal.com/
David
>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>candidates)
>
>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
>*****CRASH!!*****
>
Hear, hear.
*****CRASH!!*****
--
David
No email replies please.
So I'm right. Period.
Anyone who believes different is retarded.
(Stolen from JJRussell, alt.funnytown)
(Originally posted by Jami JoAnne in alt.folklore.urban)
Rhonda Lea Kirk Fries
> I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
> four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
> struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
> for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
> the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
> him.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/11/03/racists_for_obama/
"Sean Quinn, of the polling site FiveThirtyEight, respected for its
obsessiveness and eerie prescience, recently posted a hair-raising story
about a pair of Barack Obama supporters. Quinn seems ready to verify its
source, but only after the election. At any rate, it goes like this: A
man canvassing for Obama in western Pennsylvania asks a housewife which
candidate she intends to vote for. She yells to her husband to find out.
From the interior of the house, he calls back, "We're voting for the
nigger!" At which point the housewife turns to the canvasser and calmly
repeats her husband's declaration."
<snipped>
Me, I'm just relieved Obama won, although I admit to a moment of true
admiration for John McCain when I heard his concession speech.
--
Rhonda Lea Kirk Fries
"You know you can indict a ham sandwich if you want to."
William J. Martini, Judge, United States District Court
Lots42
> What does the US do now if one of those red states decides it cannot
> bear being governed by a black president, and tries to secede? Can
> your country survive a civil war in this day & age?
There's no such thing as a red state. Never has been. Just shades of
purple. And nobody'd secede, they'd lose all the monies.
Monies makes the world go round.
Kevin Ahearn
> What does the US do now if one of those red states decides it cannot
> bear being governed by a black president, and tries to secede? Can
> your country survive a civil war in this day & age?
Hi, I don't believe we've met. I'm the twenty-first century, and this
is my good friend...woops, I was going to introduce you my good friend
the twentieth century, but you seem to have just missed him.
OK, enough snark. The US doesn't do secessions anymore. A couple of
states tried it about 140 - well, almost 150 years ago, and it didn't
turn out so well for them.
--Kevin
0mn1vore
Of course, but Republicans will most likely start blaming the
Democrat-controlled Government for all of theirs, so it's a bit of a
trade-off.
Patrick.
--
Email to; 0mn1-sneaking(a)sneakEmail,com
but fix the (a) and the comma first.
Don't Worry, Be Happy.
-- Meher Baba
Summer Storms
<adopts...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 4, 8:47?pm, Denny Wheeler <den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID>
>wrote:
>> Racism in the US isn't dead. ?But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>> BIG blow. ?(and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>> candidates)
>>
>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>
>> *****CRASH!!*****
>
>Does this mean that Blacks will stop blaming the white-controlled
>Government for all their problems? I hope so, of course.
Most of the black people I know *don't* blame whites for their
problems.
___
(Remove dotty rant to reply.)
"Ignorance is an abuse of free will." - comedian Chris Bliss
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From #Callahans on Undernet (IRC):
<C_90> You don't know the hallucinatory properties of
Polish Sausage and a Beer and a shot while dancing
to Polka Bands.
<SummerStorms> Dude... I live in Cleveland.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Blogs:
http://summers-place.livejournal.com/
http://summerbythelakeside.blogspot.com/
Hubby's Blog for current events, sports, music & misc.:
Two meter troll
wrote:
Well Denny I am with you on this. just his getting elected with the
number of votes he had. the turn out at the polls and the bitterness
of those opposed to this election are huge leaps. now the real work
starts.
to giant leaps. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Crash>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Two meter troll
Keven you have apparintly not been to see Mr pacific north west. or
the new try for the state of cascadia or the conch republic or several
other odd things that looked /look suspiciously like succession
without guns.
Lots42
> Keven you have apparintly not been to see Mr pacific north west. or
> the new try for the state of cascadia or the conch republic or several
> other odd things that looked /look suspiciously like succession
> without guns.
I've seen many of those odd things. To -me- they look like a handful
of weirdos with publicity. No big.
saavik
is a healthy money-making tourist attraction in Key West.
The only real secessionist group I've ever heard of that sounds credibly
scary is the AIP. I expect they have guns.
Margo
Jette
> Canth wrote:
>
>> I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
>> four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
>> struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
>> for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
>> the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
>> him.
>
> http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/11/03/racists_for_obama/
>
> "Sean Quinn, of the polling site FiveThirtyEight, respected for its
> obsessiveness and eerie prescience, recently posted a hair-raising story
> about a pair of Barack Obama supporters. Quinn seems ready to verify its
> source, but only after the election. At any rate, it goes like this: A
> man canvassing for Obama in western Pennsylvania asks a housewife which
> candidate she intends to vote for. She yells to her husband to find out.
> From the interior of the house, he calls back, "We're voting for the
> nigger!" At which point the housewife turns to the canvasser and calmly
> repeats her husband's declaration."
>
Sounds like to him - and her - the word is a description, not
necessarily an insult.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
Two meter troll
really a "handfull weirdos" what ever shall we do?
Never underestimate the power of a hand full of wierdos they are
responcible for most of the things we now use every day. like the
light bulb, PC's and the united states of america.
Those same wierdos that i mentioned have gotten some pretty odd stuff
out of the courts over the years so someone has taken them relitivly
seriously.
you dont always shoot someone to succede sometimes a bit of law
treaking is all you need.
Larisa
Considering that most of those red states (with the exception of
Texas) are a net drain on the federal coffers, and most blue states
are a net contributor, I'd say "let 'em secede" - they can start their
own little third-world country, and the rest of us will breathe a
little easier if we don't have to support them. But again, with the
same considerations in mind, I don't think they'll try to secede -
they know where their money is coming from, and they know they can't
survive on their own.
LM
Chris Zakes
caused Canth <kwar...@bigpond.net.au> to write:
>On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0800, Denny Wheeler
><den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>
>>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>>candidates)
>>
>>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>
>>
>>*****CRASH!!*****
>>
>>-denny-
>I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
>four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
>struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
>for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
>the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
>him.
That presupposes that the *only* reason people voted against Barack
Obama is due to his skin color, rather than his stance on various
issues.
That presupposition is nonsense. Sure, some people may have voted
based on that, just as some people may have voted *for* him based on
his skin color. But the majority? Or even a significant minority?
Don't be silly.
-Chris Zakes
Texas
A politician may be distinguished from a statesman in that the former is,
unfortunately, not dead.
Adapted from "The Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce
Rowan Hawthorn
Big deal. They have about 12,000 registered members. I'm pretty sure
you could find a lot more people than that in Alaska who *oppose* their
ideas and *also* have guns. Hell, if it came to that, you could raise
more armed citizens in Kentucky alone than the *entire population* of
Alaska (assuming anybody here cared enough to try and keep'em, which I
doubt...)
Marten Kemp
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:47:16 -0800, Denny Wheeler
> <den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>
>> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>> candidates)
>>
>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
> I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
> four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
> struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
> for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
> the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
> him.
>
> What does the US do now if one of those red states decides it cannot
> bear being governed by a black president, and tries to secede? Can
> your country survive a civil war in this day & age?
I think the Unpleasantness of 1861-1864 answered that.
--
-- Marten Kemp
(Fix name and ISP to reply)
Marten Kemp
Hmmm. Maybe letting them secede is the wrong track.
Maybe we should expel 'em.
saavik
succeed, but the damage they could do if they tried.
Margo
artie
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
>
> -denny-
denny--
I wish I shared your optimism.
I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
woodwork.
That they lost just shows they didn't pray (prey) hard enough, work
hard enough -- after all, their success in California on Prop 8 shows
that with enough money, prayers, (and lies) they can succeed.
I fear the divisiveness has only begun.
I look forward to being proven wrong.
--
Namaste--
Larisa
> In article <r692h45bus5liko28o12ng7frk50lpb...@4ax.com>, Denny Wheeler
What gives me great hope, though, is that the elections do appear to
be more or less fair, and that voting does appear to do something. If
the game is rigged, no amount of fair play can defeat a cheater. But
if the game is fair, the public's minds can be changed, and it will be
reflected in the political outcomes.
I think a lot of the California no-on-8 voters were very complacent,
and underestimated the right-wing presence in that state. Heck, I
even switched my voter registration from California (where I normally
vote) to Pennsylvania because, after all, nothing bad can happen in
California, right? Wrong. We won't be as complacent now.
As for the divisiveness - the country has been divided for 8 years.
It's not at all a new phenomenon.
LM
John W. Vinson
>denny--
>
>I wish I shared your optimism.
>
>I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
>further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
>woodwork.
>
>That they lost just shows they didn't pray (prey) hard enough, work
>hard enough -- after all, their success in California on Prop 8 shows
>that with enough money, prayers, (and lies) they can succeed.
>
>I fear the divisiveness has only begun.
>
>I look forward to being proven wrong.
It's a small election as these things go... but Minnick vs. Sali in Idaho's
Congressional District 1 (where I live, as it happens) is what I'd consider a
hopeful sign. It's a VERY conservative area, solidly Republican most of the
time. Sali is an extreme right-winger by almost any criterion (e.g. he voted
against Federal standards and background checks for child-care providers on
the grounds that it would infringe on their freedom to run a business as they
see fit).
He lost to a conservative Democrat. It's been ages since Idaho sent a Democrat
to Congress, but Sali was just too fanatical for even his own party.
Wes Struebing
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>candidates)
>
>So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
>*****CRASH!!*****
>
There is hope for us, after all!
<<<<CRASH>>>>
--
Wes Struebing
Jan. 20, 2009 - the end of an error
Wes Struebing
wrote:
Well, except for Texas, which, I believe has that option written into
it Constitution (or something very close to that).
Wes Struebing
<adopts...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 4, 8:47?pm, Denny Wheeler <den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID>
>wrote:
>> Racism in the US isn't dead. ?But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>> BIG blow. ?(and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>> candidates)
>>
>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>
>> *****CRASH!!*****
>
>Does this mean that Blacks will stop blaming the white-controlled
>Government for all their problems? I hope so, of course.
Except for idiots like Rev. Wright, I haven't seen that, Harry. Of
course you have live longer than I...
<grin>
Denny Wheeler
wrote:
>>I'd call it a bit premature yet. If he (and the US) makes it through
>>four years & the next election OK, then I will say a big blow has been
>>struck. Just because a confluence of events got enough people to vote
>>for him, doesn't mean racism has changed much. Remember, almost half
>>the people & in some places more than half the people, voted against
>>him.
>
>That presupposes that the *only* reason people voted against Barack
>Obama is due to his skin color, rather than his stance on various
>issues.
>
>That presupposition is nonsense. Sure, some people may have voted
>based on that, just as some people may have voted *for* him based on
>his skin color. But the majority? Or even a significant minority?
>Don't be silly.
I think a significant number of people--and many of *them* don't
realize it about themselves--did vote against Obama because he's
black. And I *know* a significant number voted for him because he's
black. And by no means were all of the latter minorities.
But Canth is quite right--in some places more than half the people
voted against Obama (or for McCain--whichever way of putting it is
correct). But as far as I know, there has been no presidential
election in which the winner carried every state. And there have been
at least two in which the winner lost the popular vote. (yes, I
realize that one of those winners was assassinated)
Canth is also right in saying that Obama's election doesn't mean
racism has changed much--it hasn't. But the election does show that
"we've come a long way, baby."
Lots42
> I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
> further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
> woodwork.
ACORN was kind of a relief. If their top ten 'Obama is bad' things
include: 'his' group has some idiots who made up voters for
money...well, hell. It's not like Mickey Mouse is going to show up to
vote.
Yes, it sucks but to compare it to some earth-shaking conspiracy is
like comparing a Barbie Doll to an actual female. The doll is just
ineffectual and stupid looking.
Lots42
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
> Canth is also right in saying that Obama's election doesn't mean
> racism has changed much--it hasn't. But the election does show that
> "we've come a long way, baby."
>
> -denny-
I would disagree partly. While we still have a ways to go, Americal
elected a darker skinned man...who has the middle name HUSSEIN and
whose last name is one letter off from the one person every single
decent, up-to-date person in the world wishes they could get their
hands of (if just to throw him in a cell).
-That- is saying something. If you told me in the year 2000 that
before 2010, America was going to elect a black guy with a name damn
close to two foreign men that America despises....I would have wished
you to be right but I would not hold out any real hope you would be.
Chris Zakes
That seems unlikely, since Texas *did* secede during the Civil War,
but was brought back into the Union along with the rest of the
Confederacy once they lost. Yours sounds like a garbled version of the
story I've always heard: that Texas was given the right to divide into
as many as five different states, when it joined the Union.
Doing a bit of digging, according to
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html
that division provision applied to the original area of Texas, not its
present outlines. Looking at this map from when Texas joined the Union
http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/arcmaps/ArcMapsDisplay.cfm?intCounter=76191
it appears to include bits of present-day Oklahoma, New Mexico,
Colorado, and possibly Kansas, Nebraska or Wyoming. (Gee, I never knew
that Texas and California once shared a border. <G>)
It appears that Texas settled into its present configuration sometime
before 1858
http://wwwdb.glo.state.tx.us/central/arcmaps/ArcMapsDetail.cfm?intCounter=76232
probably as part of the Compromise of 1850, mentioned in the first
cite above, but the other 1850s-era maps on that website don't show
much detail of the northern or western boundaries of Texas.
saavik
right out of the Republican party altogether, leaving a much saner and
more reasonable Republican party.
Here's an example of the type of fringe loonies that need to be kicked
to the curb before the Republicans can even hope to mend the
divisiveness that they have promoted during this election, and during
the last 8 years:
http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=66777
Margo
LJ Wolfe
> Rowan Hawthorn wrote:
>> saavik wrote:
<snip>
>>> The only real secessionist group I've ever heard of that sounds
>>> credibly scary is the AIP. I expect they have guns.
>>
>> Big deal. They have about 12,000 registered members. I'm pretty sure
>> you could find a lot more people than that in Alaska who *oppose* their
>> ideas and *also* have guns. Hell, if it came to that, you could raise
>> more armed citizens in Kentucky alone than the *entire population* of
>> Alaska (assuming anybody here cared enough to try and keep'em, which I
>> doubt...)
>>
> Oh, you are probably right, but my concern is not that they might
> succeed, but the damage they could do if they tried.
>
> Margo
And don't forget that one of those AIP members is married to Alaska's
governor and came damn close to being married to the vice president.
Small groups can cause big effects, for good or ill.
Morgan /|\
LJ Wolfe
Matthew Russotto
Larisa <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>As for the divisiveness - the country has been divided for 8 years.
Longer than that. It's not united when your side is ascendant and
divided otherwise.
--
It's times like these which make me glad my bank is Dial-a-Mattress
Matthew Russotto
Denny Wheeler <den...@zipcon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>
>But Canth is quite right--in some places more than half the people
>voted against Obama (or for McCain--whichever way of putting it is
>correct). But as far as I know, there has been no presidential
>election in which the winner carried every state.
Reagan came closest in the modern era, losing only Minnesota and the
District of Columbia to Mondale in 1984.
Washington won every state in both his elections.
Two meter troll
wrote:
> In article <to05h4pdrkl0i38dfvl80acrghu5ta6...@4ax.com>,
thats cause there was not very many states and only male land owners
could vote. its also hard to rig an election when every one knows who
the other guy is voteing for.
MajorOz
> In article <r692h45bus5liko28o12ng7frk50lpb...@4ax.com>, Denny Wheeler
>
> <den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
> > Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> > BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> > candidates)
>
> > So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
> > *****CRASH!!*****
>
> > -denny-
>
> denny--
>
> I wish I shared your optimism.
>
> I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
> further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
> woodwork.
>
> That they lost just shows they didn't pray (prey) hard enough, work
> hard enough -- after all, their success in California on Prop 8 shows
> that with enough money, prayers, (and lies) they can succeed.
Just a view from the sidelines:
When the "good idea" prevails, it is because of thoughtfulness,
justice, intelligence, and the will of the people.
When the "bad idea" prevails, it is because of money, prayers, and
lies.
No prejudice here :)
cheers
oz, wondering why so many people tar conservatives with the idiocy of
the Christian Taliban
Denny Wheeler
Very good indeed.
Chris Zakes
caused artie <art...@gNOSPAMmail.com> to write:
>In article <r692h45bus5liko28...@4ax.com>, Denny Wheeler
><den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>
>> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>> candidates)
>>
>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>
>>
>> *****CRASH!!*****
>>
>> -denny-
>
>denny--
>
>I wish I shared your optimism.
>
>I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
>further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
>woodwork.
>
>That they lost just shows they didn't pray (prey) hard enough, work
>hard enough -- after all, their success in California on Prop 8 shows
>that with enough money, prayers, (and lies) they can succeed.
Here's a giggle for you: the winning number in the evening drawing for
the Illinois Pick 3 lottery on November 5th (i.e. the day after
Obama's election) was 666.
http://www.illinoislottery.com/numbers.asp
I'm sure the paranoid fundamentalists will have *lots* of fun with
that coincidence.
Denny Wheeler
<Maj...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>oz, wondering why so many people tar conservatives with the idiocy of
>the Christian Taliban
Because virtually all (all, that I know of) "Christian Taliban" types
are conservatives. You know, and I know, and the Patronage knows,
that when a highly visible subgroup belongs to a larger group, that
larger group tends to become identified with the subgroup.
Not good logic (not logic, really) but there it is.
Doesn't much help that the Republican Party--the party of
conservatives--has been catering to some of the demands of those same
"Christian Taliban" leaders.
David
<dont...@gmail.com> typed:
>On Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:46:23 -0800, an orbital mind-control laser
>caused artie <art...@gNOSPAMmail.com> to write:
>
>>In article <r692h45bus5liko28...@4ax.com>, Denny Wheeler
>><den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>>
>>> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>>> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>>> candidates)
>>>
>>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>>
>>>
>>> *****CRASH!!*****
>>>
>>> -denny-
>>
>>denny--
>>
>>I wish I shared your optimism.
>>
>>I fear it's just going to polarize the wingnuts on the right even
>>further. Even wilder conspiracies (than acorn) will come out of the
>>woodwork.
>>
>>That they lost just shows they didn't pray (prey) hard enough, work
>>hard enough -- after all, their success in California on Prop 8 shows
>>that with enough money, prayers, (and lies) they can succeed.
>
>
>Here's a giggle for you: the winning number in the evening drawing for
>the Illinois Pick 3 lottery on November 5th (i.e. the day after
>Obama's election) was 666.
>
>http://www.illinoislottery.com/numbers.asp
>
>I'm sure the paranoid fundamentalists will have *lots* of fun with
>that coincidence.
>
ROTFL.
--
David
No email replies please.
You will remember something that you should not have forgotten.
D.J.
]the Christian Taliban
Because some of the vocal fringe conservatives give the non-fringe
conservatives a bad name ?
I think and believe all political groups need to stop rallying
around, or pretending they don't exist, the fringe elements when
they want to scare people into voting for the mai part of the
political group. Speak out, tell people the fringe elements are
wrong and don't represent the group as a whole.
D.J.
--
http://star.drivein-jim.net/ Starship deck plans
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/ Oct, 2008 AD&D pages
D.J.
wrote:
]That seems unlikely, since Texas *did* secede during the Civil War,
]but was brought back into the Union along with the rest of the
]Confederacy once they lost. Yours sounds like a garbled version of the
I think Texas would have succeeded in leaving the Union, if they
hadn't joined the Confederacy. But had waited years later to try.
Thing is, Texas was broke in 1845. One of the Republic of Texas
Cabinet members had to borrow the money to pay for the postage to
reply to the US Congress' letter about Texas joining the union.
Why leave years later. after 1865 ? They had just joined a short
time earleir.
Wes Struebing
(Matthew Russotto) wrote:
>In article <to05h4pdrkl0i38df...@4ax.com>,
>Denny Wheeler <den...@zipcon.netREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>>
>>But Canth is quite right--in some places more than half the people
>>voted against Obama (or for McCain--whichever way of putting it is
>>correct). But as far as I know, there has been no presidential
>>election in which the winner carried every state.
>
>Reagan came closest in the modern era, losing only Minnesota and the
>District of Columbia to Mondale in 1984.
>
IIRC, (it is older than Reagan's mandate) Nixon won all but one state
(Massachusetts) in 1972. (oh, and D.C.)
Wes Struebing
wrote:
>On Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:47:59 -0700, an orbital mind-control laser
>caused Wes Struebing <str...@carpedementem.org> to write:
>
>>On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:21:29 -0800 (PST), Lots42 <lot...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Nov 5, 12:22 am, Canth <kwar6...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What does the US do now if one of those red states decides it cannot
>>>> bear being governed by a black president, and tries to secede? Can
>>>> your country survive a civil war in this day & age?
>>>
>>>There's no such thing as a red state. Never has been. Just shades of
>>>purple. And nobody'd secede, they'd lose all the monies.
>>>
>>>Monies makes the world go round.
>>
>>Well, except for Texas, which, I believe has that option written into
>>it Constitution (or something very close to that).
>>--
>>
>>Wes Struebing
>
>That seems unlikely, since Texas *did* secede during the Civil War,
>but was brought back into the Union along with the rest of the
>Confederacy once they lost. Yours sounds like a garbled version of the
>story I've always heard: that Texas was given the right to divide into
>as many as five different states, when it joined the Union.
>
Hmm. Always thought THAT was urban legend.
I tried to do some reading about that "secession" thing, too. And
nothing I could find said anything definitive.
Oh, well. I'll consider it also urban legend, then, until shown
otherwise.
Thanks, Chris.
Rowan Hawthorn
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:43:16 -0800 (PST), MajorOz
> <Maj...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>> oz, wondering why so many people tar conservatives with the idiocy of
>> the Christian Taliban
>
> Because virtually all (all, that I know of) "Christian Taliban" types
> are conservatives. You know, and I know, and the Patronage knows,
> that when a highly visible subgroup belongs to a larger group, that
> larger group tends to become identified with the subgroup.
>
> Not good logic (not logic, really) but there it is.
>
Of course, when those "Christian Taliban" types loudly insist that they
*do* speak for all other subgroups of that larger group, it might help
if those other subgroups were a little more active in making their
voices heard saying, "No, they don't". I think most everybody knows in
a general sense that they don't, but it's hard to tell which subgroups
fall in line and which ones don't if you don't have some direct
connection, because otherwise, it's rare to hear any public disavowment
of the loonies.
--
Rowan Hawthorn
"Occasionally, I'm callous and strange." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the
Vampire Slayer"
Lots42
> oz, wondering why so many people tar conservatives with the idiocy of
> the Christian Taliban-
Because it's easier to believe that the Whackos of Group XYZ represent
everyone in Group XYZ.
Lots42
> Of course, when those "Christian Taliban" types loudly insist that they
> *do* speak for all other subgroups of that larger group, it might help
> if those other subgroups were a little more active in making their
> voices heard saying, "No, they don't". I think most everybody knows in
> a general sense that they don't, but it's hard to tell which subgroups
> fall in line and which ones don't if you don't have some direct
> connection, because otherwise, it's rare to hear any public disavowment
> of the loonies.
>
> --
> Rowan Hawthorn
>
Well, Group ABC on the liberal (to use an example) side might think
that EVERYONE in Group XYZ on the conservative side is a loony.
In other words, to hear Group XYZ being disavowed as a bunch of
lunatics wouldn't sit right if you think the denouncers belong in the
padded room next door.
Ree
Well I'm sorry folks but since I don't tune in to those creeps, I never
hear them claiming to speak for me so I have no way to know when you
want me to speak up and say that they don't speak for me. Why are you
listening to them?
If you ask me, I'll tell you. But if I know nothing about it, don't
expect to hear from me.
Ree
Matthew Russotto
Chris Zakes <dont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Here's a giggle for you: the winning number in the evening drawing for
>the Illinois Pick 3 lottery on November 5th (i.e. the day after
>Obama's election) was 666.
>
>http://www.illinoislottery.com/numbers.asp
>
>I'm sure the paranoid fundamentalists will have *lots* of fun with
>that coincidence.
Yeah, and the regular paranoids will figure the fundamentalists rigged it.
Matthew Russotto
But it was a bigger state. The one I missed was Roosevelt in 1936,
who did a little better, losing only Vermont and Maine, with fewer
total votes than Minnesota and D.C. No DC, AK, or HI electoral votes
in that election.
Rowan Hawthorn
Bullshit. There are lots of people that I don't care much for who
dislike the same people I do. For similar reasons. And I agree with
them. (Then there are people who think those loonies are wrong because
they're not loony *enough*. Don't take *anybody* at face value.)
Rowan Hawthorn
I do an occasional listen mostly just to get a heads-up on who and what
they're trying to manipulate so I can make a dissenting voice heard.
You'd be surprised how few voices it takes to make changes that effect
everyone, if nobody ever pushes back.
David
<rowan_h...@hotmail.com> typed:
A Devil's Advocate can either change peoples' minds or strengthen
their convictions. In most cases a good thing.
--
David
No email replies please.
You teach best what you most need to learn.
Clothahump
> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> candidates)
>
> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
>
> *****CRASH!!*****
Sorry, I can't join in that toast.
I feel that anyone who refers to another's skin color in any way as if
that color had some meaning or value marks themself as a loser and
demeans the other person. Skin color is meaningless and I'm frankly
sick and tired of hearing people go on and on and on about it.
saavik
the years, I venture to say that it means a great deal to you, and you
are sick and tired of hearing about it because events are
overwhelmingly running counter to your own preferences in the matter.
De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.
MajorOz
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2008 17:43:16 -0800 (PST), MajorOz
>
> >oz, wondering why so many people tar conservatives with the idiocy of
> >the Christian Taliban
>
> Because virtually all (all, that I know of) "Christian Taliban" types
> are conservatives.
Well, DUH. "Talibans", of any stripe, would tend to fall onto the
conservative side. (Well, maybe the PC fanatics on many college
campuses wouldn't -- I often recall an old acquaintance that asserted
that wackos on each side tend to meet on the "back side" of a closed
universe)
>You know, and I know, and the Patronage >knows,
> that when a highly visible subgroup belongs to a larger group, that
> larger group tends to become identified with >the subgroup.
> Not good logic (not logic, really) but there it is.
Unfortunately, true. Politics, or any other endeavor with such a high
emotional content, tends to toss logic out.
> Doesn't much help that the Republican Party--the party of
> conservatives--has been catering to some of the demands of those same
> "Christian Taliban" leaders.
Agreed. But it is noteworthy that their philospphical dopplegangers
don't garner similar attention.
cheers
oz, who tries (not always successfully) to keep in mind that, while
all squirrels are fuzzy animals, not all fuzzy animals are squirrels
D.J.
<Maj...@centurytel.net> wrote:
]campuses wouldn't -- I often recall an old acquaintance that asserted
]that wackos on each side tend to meet on the "back side" of a closed
]universe)
I have asserted the same, no special difference between the Far Left
and the Far Right they just use different excuses to kill people.
But the groups are essentially the same.
MargW
Certainly I would agree with you and skin colour is meaningless, except
that for so many people, the colour of the other person's skin DOES make
a difference. Until there is no one that makes a distinction based on
colour, then this is truly an important giant leap.
I find that people who make the sort of statement you just made are
similar to those people who rant about 'First Nations' (American
Indians) getting 'special treatment' by which they usually mean tax
breaks and education scholarships, etc. and how the Indians should be
treated 'just like everybody else.' These are often the same people who
have no problem with the fact that Indian land was confiscated, Indians
were forced onto reserves, Indian children were sent to residential
school where they were abused and their culture torn from them, and
Indians represent a higher percentage of prison population. We (white
Europeans) signed treaties which have been honoured more in the breach
that in fact.
Turtle - you need to take your blinders off.
MargW
Denny Wheeler
<hookk...@yaPROTECTIONhoo.com> wrote:
>I feel that anyone who refers to another's skin color in any way as if
>that color had some meaning or value marks themself as a loser and
>demeans the other person. Skin color is meaningless and I'm frankly
>sick and tired of hearing people go on and on and on about it.
Not sure I agree with either of the ladies who've already replied--not
sure I disagree with 'em either, btw--but if you genuinely mean what
you said in those 4 lines, then you should have been among the first
to join the toast.
That'd be 'cause the toast is prompted by an event which shows that
the opinion stated in your 4 lines--esp. "Skin color is
meaningless"--is closer to being a reality in this country.
I say 'closer' because it's fairly obvious that skin color still means
a very great deal to many Americans. (and we'll leave dermatologists
and others who deal with things like skin cancer out of the equation.
<g>)
I absolutely agree that skin color SHOULDN'T have any meaning or
value--but unfortunately, we haven't reached that point. (I doubt any
of the current Patrons will live to see that day)
Further, one's gender should make no difference at all to whether one
is elected/hired for any job. The qualifications and skills should
rule.
Also among those things which should be irrelevant to such matters:
pleasing/unpleasing physical appearance.
height.
religious belief/unbelief.
sexual orientation.
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
(the last line in Yul Brynner mode)
Denny Wheeler
wrote:
>I think and believe all political groups need to stop rallying
>around, or pretending they don't exist, the fringe elements when
>they want to scare people into voting for the mai part of the
>political group. Speak out, tell people the fringe elements are
>wrong and don't represent the group as a whole.
Word.
Denny Wheeler
<Maj...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>>You know, and I know, and the Patronage >knows,
>> that when a highly visible subgroup belongs to a larger group, that
>> larger group tends to become identified with >the subgroup.
>> Not good logic (not logic, really) but there it is.
>
>Unfortunately, true. Politics, or any other endeavor with such a high
>emotional content, tends to toss logic out.
>
>> Doesn't much help that the Republican Party--the party of
>> conservatives--has been catering to some of the demands of those same
>> "Christian Taliban" leaders.
>
>Agreed. But it is noteworthy that their philospphical dopplegangers
>don't garner similar attention.
D'you mean the wingnuts at the left end of the spectrum, or the
moderate conservatives? (strikes me that you could mean either)
(if the uber-lefties)
I think it's somewhat cyclical--the hyper-left was the vocal, visible
bunch during the latter part of the 'Nam. But there's also usually an
organizational factor--and it's always been fairly easy to gain
followers and get organizations going in this country when there's
some religious extremism involved. (that may apply in many other
places as well)
>cheers
>
>oz, who tries (not always successfully) to keep in mind that, while
>all squirrels are fuzzy animals, not all fuzzy animals are squirrels
True. At least one fuzzy animal of my acquaintance is a Pampered
Persian Princess.
Lots42
> Clothahump wrote:
> > Denny Wheeler wrote:
> >> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
> >> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
> >> candidates)
>
> >> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>
> >> *****CRASH!!*****
> > ===============
> > Sorry, I can't join in that toast.
>
> > I feel that anyone who refers to another's skin color in any way as if
> > that color had some meaning or value marks themself as a loser and
> > demeans the other person. Skin color is meaningless and I'm frankly
> > sick and tired of hearing people go on and on and on about it.
>
> Certainly I would agree with you and skin colour is meaningless, except
> that for so many people, the colour of the other person's skin DOES make
> a difference. Until there is no one that makes a distinction based on
> colour, then this is truly an important giant leap.
Amen. But...
> I find that people who make the sort of statement you just made are
> similar to those people who rant about 'First Nations' (American
> Indians) getting 'special treatment' by which they usually mean tax
> breaks and education scholarships, etc. and how the Indians should be
> treated 'just like everybody else.' These are often the same people who
> have no problem with the fact that Indian land was confiscated, Indians
> were forced onto reserves, Indian children were sent to residential
> school where they were abused and their culture torn from them, and
> Indians represent a higher percentage of prison population. We (white
> Europeans) signed treaties which have been honoured more in the breach
> that in fact.
I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
everyone on both sides are dead.
Sure, I can imagine a million and one scenarios where the government
is STILL in the wrong concerning a minority group. But nobody deserves
extra compensation for anything simply -because- they are a minority.
That way lies madness.
Lots42
wrote:
> Also among those things which should be irrelevant to such matters:
>
> pleasing/unpleasing physical appearance.
> height.
> religious belief/unbelief.
The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
or all three.
If almost every person in a red shirt threw a rock at you, you'd be
scared of Santa...
Denny Wheeler
wrote:
>On Nov 9, 6:48 pm, Denny Wheeler <den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID>
>wrote:
>
>> Also among those things which should be irrelevant to such matters:
>>
>> pleasing/unpleasing physical appearance.
>> height.
>> religious belief/unbelief.
>
>The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
>believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
>person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
>or all three.
IIRC, you're in Florida. You must be worried a LOT. :\
>If almost every person in a red shirt threw a rock at you, you'd be
>scared of Santa...
Yup. That'd be a valid statement.
John W. Vinson
>The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
>believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
>person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
>or all three.
I'm sorry you feel that way about me, Lots; I hope someday to get to know you
better to relieve your fear.
--
John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
Ree
Or of my local gang. I'd have to ask my local drug dealer/front yard
mechanic to change their colours.
Ree
MargW
> On Nov 9, 3:11 pm, MargW <mwhit...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Clothahump wrote:
>>> Denny Wheeler wrote:
>>>> Racism in the US isn't dead. But damn it, today's election dealt it a
>>>> BIG blow. (and I'd say that, regardless of my opinion of the
>>>> candidates)
>>>> So--to the USofA, and a giant leap.
>>>> *****CRASH!!*****
>>> ===============
We (white
>> Europeans) signed treaties which have been honoured more in the breach
>> that in fact.
>
> I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
> such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
> everyone on both sides are dead.
We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
governments in our names.
>
> Sure, I can imagine a million and one scenarios where the government
> is STILL in the wrong concerning a minority group. But nobody deserves
> extra compensation for anything simply -because- they are a minority.
> That way lies madness.
I'm talking about simply fulfilling our contractual obligations
(treaties). I do, however, disagree with you on compensation. The
residential school issue is a major one here in Canada, and until there
is some healing and reconciliation, it will continue to be a festering
sore that makes it impossible for many to move forward.
Hmmm - sorry about the thread drift.
MargW
Larisa
Who are you calling "we"? I may be a white European, but I was
nowhere near America when all of this was happening, nor were my
ancestors. From what I have been able to ascertain, 3/4 of my
ancestors were fleeing pogroms AND having their culture torn from them
(along with their property, their families, and at times, their
lives), and 1/4 of my ancestors were, essentially, slaves. (I have
been able to trace the Slavic part of my ancestry to a serf in
Novgorod). As for having one's culture torn from one - I cannot speak
Yiddish. Neither can my mother. Her mother was afraid to teach her.
White guilt only works if you view white people as one
undifferentiated lump, all descended from those who came in on the
Mayflower. I didn't. I refuse to feel guilty for the misdeeds of
others who just happen to share my skin color.
Mind you, if you are arguing that we should give the Native Americans
back their land and get out of it altogether, I'd almost agree with
that; however, I will note that when the Jews tried it in Israel, they
paid money for much of the land in question, and even so, they were
demonized.
LM
Lots42
<jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:07:01 -0800 (PST), Lots42 <lot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
> >believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
> >person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
> >or all three.
>
> I'm sorry you feel that way about me, Lots; I hope someday to get to know you
> better to relieve your fear.
Things that will help; don't get mad I don't believe in your god and
that I won't change my mind, don't drive your car like a lunatic that
is on fire. I know that may sound weird, but, sadly, that is what the
religous folks tend to do to me and or around me.
Lots42
> Lots42 wrote:
> > I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
> > such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
> > everyone on both sides are dead.
>
> We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
> descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
> When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
> and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
> governments in our names.
I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
Americans.
>
> > Sure, I can imagine a million and one scenarios where the government
> > is STILL in the wrong concerning a minority group. But nobody deserves
> > extra compensation for anything simply -because- they are a minority.
> > That way lies madness.
>
> I'm talking about simply fulfilling our contractual obligations
> (treaties).
It depends on the person. If Running Bear is getting screwed over by
governmental red tape, we should send in the lawyers to help him out.
But if Running Bear has two SUVS (or two hybrids) and a two-level
house and a job running the food court at the casino...he don't need
crap.
> I do, however, disagree with you on compensation. The
> residential school issue is a major one here in Canada, and until there
> is some healing and reconciliation, it will continue to be a festering
> sore that makes it impossible for many to move forward.
It sounds to me like this residental school issue involves many people
who are still alive. If so, I'd be the first to say they should get
compensation.
> Hmmm - sorry about the thread drift.
>
> MargW
Usenet -is- thread drift.
Ree
Well I haven't gotten mad at you for that yet. Not expecting to in the
near future. Though it makes me curious about what you do believe in if
anything. Just curiosity though; it tends to be interesting to find out
what people believe and why.
I doubt I live near enough to you to drive that way around you anyway so
that point is moot! :-)
I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon! But they've
always accepted me at The Place anyway! :-D
Ree (BOYC?)
Ree
It does indeed involve many people still alive. People who went through
horrible treatment denying their heritage and mistreating them
physically and mentally.
>
>> Hmmm - sorry about the thread drift.
>>
>> MargW
>
> Usenet -is- thread drift.
Yeah. The other word is conversation. :-P
Ree
John W. Vinson
>Things that will help; don't get mad I don't believe in your god and
>that I won't change my mind, don't drive your car like a lunatic that
>is on fire. I know that may sound weird, but, sadly, that is what the
>religous folks tend to do to me and or around me.
And if you're willing, don't take the part for the whole. Sure, there are
"Christians" like that. There are also atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Jews,
Moslems, and what have you that are argumentative and drive like lunatics; and
there are representatives of all these groups who don't.
BOYC?
David
typed:
[...]
>I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
>been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon! But they've
>always accepted me at The Place anyway! :-D
>
>Ree (BOYC?)
They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
--
David
No email replies please.
You will be recognized and honored as a community leader.
Ree
> [Default] On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:30:01 -0500, Ree <ge...@teksavvy.com>
> typed:
>
> [...]
>> I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
>> been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon! But they've
>> always accepted me at The Place anyway! :-D
>>
>> Ree (BOYC?)
>
> They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
'at's why I'm here!
Ree
Desideria
wrote:
>[Default] On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:30:01 -0500, Ree <ge...@teksavvy.com>
>typed:
>
>[...]
>>I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
>>been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon! But they've
>>always accepted me at The Place anyway! :-D
>>
>>Ree (BOYC?)
>
>They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
Nah. I remember one guy in the stories that Mike wouldn't listen to or
help. And even here, we won't take just anyone...just almost anyone!
;-)
Desideria
Jette
> On Nov 10, 8:01 am, MargW <mwhit...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> Lots42 wrote:
>
>>> I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
>>> such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
>>> everyone on both sides are dead.
>> We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
>> descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
>> When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
>> and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
>> governments in our names.
>
> I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
> Americans.
>
Except to benefit from their misfortune, years down the line.
--
Jette Goldie
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)
MargW
> Lots42 wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 8:01 am, MargW <mwhit...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Lots42 wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
>>>> such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
>>>> everyone on both sides are dead.
>>> We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
>>> descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
>>> When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
>>> and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
>>> governments in our names.
>>
>> I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
>> Americans.
>>
>
> Except to benefit from their misfortune, years down the line.
>
Thank you, Jette
I was struggling with how to phrase it, and I didn't want to get into a
flame war.
MargW
Marten Kemp
> Lots42 wrote:
>> On Nov 10, 8:01 am, MargW <mwhit...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Lots42 wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
>>>> such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
>>>> everyone on both sides are dead.
>>> We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
>>> descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
>>> When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
>>> and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
>>> governments in our names.
>>
>> I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
>> Americans.
>
> Except to benefit from their misfortune, years down the line.
And so? At this point trying to sort out who benefited how much
from whose misfortune is a recipe for endless argument or legal
costs to approach the National Debt.
--
-- Marten Kemp
(Fix name and ISP to reply)
Denny Wheeler
<deside...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:44:01 +1030, David <faro...@picknowl.com.au>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
>
>Nah. I remember one guy in the stories that Mike wouldn't listen to or
>help. And even here, we won't take just anyone...just almost anyone!
>;-)
>
(at the risk of invoking Godwin)
Yabbut that's because he had no remorse for what he did as Hitler.
Desideria
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:01:48 -0800, Desideria
><deside...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:44:01 +1030, David <faro...@picknowl.com.au>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
>>
>>Nah. I remember one guy in the stories that Mike wouldn't listen to or
>>help. And even here, we won't take just anyone...just almost anyone!
>>;-)
>>
>(at the risk of invoking Godwin)
>
>Yabbut that's because he had no remorse for what he did as Hitler.
>
>-denny-
You sure? I seem to remember that he had remorse, but was not prepared
to do squat about it. He wanted forgiveness for free.
Desideria
Barbara Bailey
> Denny Wheeler wrote:
>>Desideria wrote:
>>>David wrote:
>>>>They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
>>>Nah. I remember one guy in the stories that Mike wouldn't listen to or
>>>help. And even here, we won't take just anyone...just almost anyone!
>>(at the risk of invoking Godwin)
>>
>>Yabbut that's because he had no remorse for what he did as Hitler.
> You sure? I seem to remember that he had remorse, but was not prepared
> to do squat about it. He wanted forgiveness for free.
I think it was somewhere sort of in-between. He wasn't happy about what
he's done, but he wasn't unhappy enough to to anything to try to balance
the karmic scales.
But The Place also didn't allow just everyone to stick around -- remember
the split in the door (since mended) that happened when Mike threw Big Beef
McCaffrey out of the Place without opening the door first. I don't recall
that exactly what he'd done to deserve it was ever told.
Denny Wheeler
<deside...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:20:26 -0800, Denny Wheeler
><den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:01:48 -0800, Desideria
>><deside...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:44:01 +1030, David <faro...@picknowl.com.au>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>They'll accept anyone at The Place. I'm a prime example.
>>>
>>>Nah. I remember one guy in the stories that Mike wouldn't listen to or
>>>help. And even here, we won't take just anyone...just almost anyone!
>>>;-)
>>>
>>(at the risk of invoking Godwin)
>>
>>Yabbut that's because he had no remorse for what he did as Hitler.
>>
>>-denny-
>
>You sure? I seem to remember that he had remorse, but was not prepared
>to do squat about it. He wanted forgiveness for free.
You may be right, sweetie. Shall we say, 'passive remorse'?
John W. Vinson
<rabr...@yayhu.comm> wrote:
>But The Place also didn't allow just everyone to stick around -- remember
>the split in the door (since mended) that happened when Mike threw Big Beef
>McCaffrey out of the Place without opening the door first. I don't recall
>that exactly what he'd done to deserve it was ever told.
My impression is that he took unfair advantage of the jar of half-dollars for
change.
Lots42
<jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:25:31 -0800 (PST),Lots42<lot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Things that will help; don't get mad I don't believe in your god and
> >that I won't change my mind, don't drive your car like a lunatic that
> >is on fire. I know that may sound weird, but, sadly, that is what the
> >religous folks tend to do to me and or around me.
>
> And if you're willing, don't take the part for the whole. Sure, there are
> "Christians" like that. There are also atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Jews,
> Moslems, and what have you that are argumentative and drive like lunatics; and
> there are representatives of all these groups who don't.
I fully acknowledge these represenatives; I just can't seem to find
them. Even the one religous guy I know took a long time to settle into
the 'I accept your differing views on God'.
> BOYC?
Root beer and lots of it! Yay!
Lots42
> > I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
> > Americans.
>
> Except to benefit from their misfortune, years down the line.
>
> --
> Jette Goldie
If some Native Americans want to live on my land, they can offer me
three million dollars for it and I will move. Otherwise, tough
toenails. -I- did nothing wrong.
Lots42
> Lots42wrote:
> >>> The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
> >>> believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
> >>> person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
> >>> or all three.
> >> I'm sorry you feel that way about me, Lots; I hope someday to get to know you
> >> better to relieve your fear.
>
> > Things that will help; don't get mad I don't believe in your god and
> > that I won't change my mind, don't drive your car like a lunatic that
> > is on fire. I know that may sound weird, but, sadly, that is what the
> > religous folks tend to do to me and or around me.
>
> Well I haven't gotten mad at you for that yet. Not expecting to in the
> near future.
Thank you. I've been 'ambushed' too many times in the past. It usually
goes 'We differ in our views but that's cool'...three week
pause...'None of you converted! You all suck!'.
> Though it makes me curious about what you do believe in if
> anything. Just curiosity though; it tends to be interesting to find out
> what people believe and why.
I believe that people who -try- to be good (utter failure is okay), no
matter what their belief, get Heaven in the afterlife. Not quite sure
about hell.
> I doubt I live near enough to you to drive that way around you anyway so
> that point is moot! :-)
Just use your blinkers and drive as if your back seat was full of
dozing German Shepards and I'm cool.
> I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
> been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon!
Good weird examples: Being a furry, going to Rocky Horror, singing bad
music in public for no clear reason.
Bad weird: Thinking hurricanes are God punishments, voting to ban gay
marriage, hating Harry Potter,
I know you're not anywhere near the 'bad' category.
Tonnie
wrote:
>I believe that people who -try- to be good (utter failure is okay), no
>matter what their belief, get Heaven in the afterlife. Not quite sure
>about hell.
You just described my religion <g>
--
Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
John W. Vinson
>I believe that people who -try- to be good (utter failure is okay), no
>matter what their belief, get Heaven in the afterlife. Not quite sure
>about hell.
I have no idea what the afterlife will be like; the one person who I do
believe came back after death didn't say much at all. I certainly DON'T
believe in Pearly Gates with a checklist of good and bad deeds; there is
nothing in the Bible to support that notion, without a whole lot of
distortion.
I do believe in a God who loves me (and you and everyone), and I'll just trust
God to do what's best.
I realize that not all Christians share that attitude, and I'm really sorry
you've had so much trouble with such.
John W. Vinson
>> And if you're willing, don't take the part for the whole. Sure, there are
>> "Christians" like that. There are also atheists, Buddhists, agnostics, Jews,
>> Moslems, and what have you that are argumentative and drive like lunatics; and
>> there are representatives of all these groups who don't.
>
>I fully acknowledge these represenatives; I just can't seem to find
>them. Even the one religous guy I know took a long time to settle into
>the 'I accept your differing views on God'.
<g> Make it two, then. I can't be sure that I'm right about God, and I *KNOW*
that I don't have the divine authority to tell someone else that they're
wrong. "Judge not, that you be not judged" is one part of the Sermon on the
Mount that often gets overlooked...
MajorOz
> Lots42 wrote:
> > On Nov 10, 8:01 am, MargW <mwhit...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> >> Lots42 wrote:
>
> >>> I'm a white European guy (Half Irish, Half Norwegian) but I signed no
> >>> such treaty. Don't pile it on me. Repirations are meaningless *IF*
> >>> everyone on both sides are dead.
> >> We are (or certainly I am) descended from white Europeans. (I am also
> >> descended from First Nations (Mohawk) through my paternal gg-mother.
> >> When I say 'we' I am referring to the North American culture at large,
> >> and trying to point out that what was done was also done by our
> >> governments in our names.
>
> > I still (politely) disagree with you. I didn't do anything to Native
> > Americans.
>
> Except to benefit from their misfortune, years down the line.
As you benefited from the Black Plague, years down the line.
Feel guilty?
oz
Ree
> On Nov 10, 9:30 pm, Ree <g...@teksavvy.com> wrote:
>> Lots42wrote:
>>> On Nov 9, 11:06 pm, John W. Vinson
>>> <jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:07:01 -0800 (PST),Lots42<lot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The last one is a bugaboo. When I see phsyical evidence someone
>>>>> believes in the Bible God, I worry. Because most of the time this
>>>>> person will do something weird, scary, dangerous to my physical safety
>>>>> or all three.
>>>> I'm sorry you feel that way about me, Lots; I hope someday to get to know you
>>>> better to relieve your fear.
>>> Things that will help; don't get mad I don't believe in your god and
>>> that I won't change my mind, don't drive your car like a lunatic that
>>> is on fire. I know that may sound weird, but, sadly, that is what the
>>> religous folks tend to do to me and or around me.
>> Well I haven't gotten mad at you for that yet. Not expecting to in the
>> near future.
>
> Thank you. I've been 'ambushed' too many times in the past. It usually
> goes 'We differ in our views but that's cool'...three week
> pause...'None of you converted! You all suck!'.
Oh yes. Been there, done that too. My exhusband was ok that I didn't
want to have kids because he thought I would change my mind.
>
>> Though it makes me curious about what you do believe in if
>> anything. Just curiosity though; it tends to be interesting to find out
>> what people believe and why.
>
> I believe that people who -try- to be good (utter failure is okay), no
> matter what their belief, get Heaven in the afterlife. Not quite sure
> about hell.
Well, since we all fail at least sometimes, that's just as well. Do you
have a set definition of what heaven is like? I ask because I'm really
unsure of that for myself. The standard picture of angels and harps
sounds pretty boring for after you've rested up a bit and I cannot
imagine heaven being very heavenly if I couldn't have beloved animals
around me as well as the beloved humans. Some of those animals deserve
heaven more than some of those humans anyway.
>
>> I doubt I live near enough to you to drive that way around you anyway so
>> that point is moot! :-)
>
> Just use your blinkers and drive as if your back seat was full of
> dozing German Shepards and I'm cool.
Signals are good. They're even better when used! Can't I have kitties
in the car?
>
>> I can't guarantee that I won't do anything weird though. I always have
>> been weird so I doubt that's going to change anytime soon!
>
> Good weird examples: Being a furry, going to Rocky Horror, singing bad
> music in public for no clear reason.
I'm not very furry and, though I've watched Rocky Horror on tv, I don't
go out to many shows; they require money. Singing bad music in public?
Since that depends on your definition of bad, I've probably done that
many times! I've definitely embarrassed people I'm with in public! :-D
>
> Bad weird: Thinking hurricanes are God punishments, voting to ban gay
> marriage, hating Harry Potter,
Hurricanes follow weather patters so unless you can think of a good way
to get all the bad people to congregate in the right area and all the
good ones to be elsewhere, it's a pretty sloppy system. God's better'n
that!
If gays want to get married....the way I see it is that as long as
people leave me alone and don't try to influence me to GET married
(which Erik and I agree is unnecessary for either of us) then why should
I try to change other people's minds to make them NOT want to? And if
marriage is really such a wonderful thing that I SHOULD want it, which
is the unspoken assumption those people always start with, then why
wouldn't gay people want it too?
But Harry Potter's a good guy! A white hat! I can see being
indifferent if it's not your cup of magic herbal tea but why waste time
hating him? Though, I will admit there are others I like more. But I
have room to like more than one series. :-P
>
> I know you're not anywhere near the 'bad' category.
>
>
>
Why thank you! How did you ever guess?
Ree :-D