Soapbox: Illiteracy, or, One more sign that Civilization is Going to Pot
Anordil Galadon
clears his throat, and begins to speak.
'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
horror.'
The following are excerpts from samples by anonymous fourth- and
seventh-graders.
The Grade 4 students were asked to read and summarize an article about
frogs and toads, using only information found in the article and
avoiding extraneous commentary.
Spelling, grammatical mistakes, and other illiteracies have been left
uncorrected.
LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 4
----
I found out that frogs and tods are a lot diffrint from each other.
Lick tods have sort bake legs and forgs have long bak legs.
This story shod mea a lot of theing lick I said in the story fogs
have long legs in the back and tods have short legs in the Bake.
The most impotnt that you tellum upart because wote if you have to
gev a foger shot and you exodntly gev the told a shot. fogs have long
bak legs and tolds dont. Frogs are smoth, and taods are not.
-----
Frightening, what?
The Grade 7 students were asked to compose a response to a story
called 'To Sleep Under the Stars.' They were expected to show an
understanding of the story by discussing how the main character comes
to appreciate the importance of family.
LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 7
-----
There are lots of characters in the book, with different thoughts
and feelings.
The first is Cecilia. Cecilia interest is the stars. She cares about
this more than anything. She is mad at her mom in the story.
Another person is Grandma. She also likes the stars. She is very ill
and is recovering. She is also happy Cecilia came over.
The last person is mom. She doesn't like the stars that much and
loves here family a lot. She is sad because Cilicia can't go with her
class.
I don't really understand the essay question but this is what I
think I'm suposed to do.
This story showes that family is the most important thing in life.
----
Disgusted yet? I am.
Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
Neil
>'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
>Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
>morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
>students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
>liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
>horror.'
>
>The following are excerpts from samples by anonymous fourth- and
>seventh-graders.
<snip>
>Disgusted yet? I am.
Not really. I'd be more interested in the average than the lowest
score of each age range. All we know from this is that at least
two kids in Los Angeles don't have the skills expected of students
in their grades. Mind you, I'd expect the average to be pretty bad
too, but this doesn't prove it.
Luria
(Remove <ical> to E-Mail)
_____
Take the utmost trouble to find the right thing to say,
and then say it with the utmost levity.
- George Bernard Shaw
Greenecat
Anordil Galadon wrote:
> Anordil walks into the room and sets down a soapbox, steps onto it,
> clears his throat, and begins to speak.
>
> 'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
> Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
> morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
> students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
> liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
> horror.'
>
<snip of bad examples>
In any sample there will always be a few at the low end of the bell
curve. Granted, these were particularly bad examples but they may not be
indicative of the overall literacy inherent in the educational system or
among young people in general. I've also seen examples of student writing
which were brilliant and which impressed me by how superior they were to
anything I could have produced when I was that age.
On another note, I received a promotional presentation today for some
application software. It contained grammatical errors so severe, that in
some places it became meaningless. The software may be useful and its
developers brilliant, but I can't help but feel pessimistic regarding the
possibility of their being successful. I know that I'd have considerable
misgivings about purchasing a product from them. If problems developed,
what kind of support might I expect?
Scott
>The following are excerpts from samples by anonymous fourth- and
>seventh-graders.
Ok, I'm not going to say everything is hunky dory, but...
Are these typical samples? Typical by whose measure? What does the
distribution of results look like?
Its quite easy to look at some of the worst results, and show failure,
or only the best, and claim success.
There is no evidence in what you presented that this has not happened.
-Scott (Not doubting persay, but a bit on the cynical side)
--
The Beautiful is as useful as the useful ..... More so, perhaps.
Victor Hugo, Les Miserables
Scott <-> sc...@ttocs.org
Craig Motbey
bchar...@hotmail.com says...
<snip spelling tests>
>Disgusted yet? I am.
>
>Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
What makes you think that this is a new phenomenon, or that TV has
anything to do with it? The way it read to me, those were the _worst_
results in the whole school; of course they were terrible, and
remedial teaching for those particular students would be a good idea,
but I don't find their existence particularly surprising.
But those terrible students have always been there; hopefully there
are now fewer of them slipping through the cracks unnoticed, but
they'll never be eradicated completely.
--
Craig Motbey
Leigh Claffey
(ah hell. This is a hotbutton. Skip if you don't want a rantlet)
Phonics suck.
It's not so much the TV, it is the TV being used as a babysitter,
people not reading to their kids (not having time to...), and
the dumbing down of the literacy requirements in the classroom
and the use of phonics to 'get by' because no one is bothering
to actually teach the kids between the ages of 2 and 5.
(the later you actually begin to learn to read the harder it is.
Six/Seven is just way too late. Unfortunately most of the
theories du jour don't actually make learning to read fun,
because they're not aimed at the way kids actually think:
short attention span, incredibly distractable. You pretty much
have to be a parent to put up with this (IMNSHO).
(an adult idea of 'kid fun' is hardly ever the kid's idea
of 'kid fun' anyway)
Apparently between 4th and 7th grade they're not teaching
story analysis anymore either.
Of course this is California. Which means the worst of the
schools in the rest of the country will be turning out many
students like this within the next five years, if they aren't
already.
(CA and TX buy the most text books. CA is usually one of the
first states to adopt the 'new and improved' teaching theory
flavor of the year...thus...)
--leigh
Lee S. Billings
>clears his throat, and begins to speak.
>
>'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
>Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
>morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
>students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
>liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
>horror.'
<snip occurreth>
>Disgusted yet? I am.
Like several others who have already commented, I'd want considerably more than
2 datapoints on which to base any conclusions. You've presented a skewed and
incomplete sample set, which generally falls into the category of propaganda
rather than information.
It also occurs to me that the levels of spelling and comprehension displayed in
those 2 examples were fairly TYPICAL of literacy levels for many centuries. Our
goal of functional literacy for all citizens would have been not merely
impossible but downright *unthinkable* as recently as the 1800's. I'm not
saying this in defense of poor skills, but in an attempt to provide a little
perspective on the subject. We do, overall, far better today at educating our
populace than many times and places have done, despite the fact that our
efforts are not yet 100% effective.
>Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
Well, yes, but not for the reasons that you seem to be implying. Television per
se is NOT the problem -- it's just an easy scapegoat.
Celine
--
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_
Gregory Baker
"Greenecat" <nor...@adoc.captec.com> wrote in message
news:3B7C7397...@adoc.captec.com...
The Fat Man, sitting at his table in the corner by the fireplace, for once
did not look up from his cup of Coffee (TM). He had been reading the
aforementioned article and heard Greenecat's comments.
"One of the tasks that I perform as a Senior Technical Writer is to be a
Grammar and Spelling Nazi in my office. I am fortunate that the writings of
my supervisor and his supervisors are spelled correctly and well-designed,
but now and then I must correct awkward phrases and poor spelling.
"To communicate effectively is one of the most difficult acts for a human.
Merely because we have the tools to do so does not mean we do it well.
"One of the methods by which one improves one's writing is feedback.
Without feedback, any writer assumes he or she is making the point clearly,
with an adequate style. In fact, the Air Force's writing manual, The Tongue
and Quill, makes that an essential part of the writing process.
"I wonder how many times these children have had a teacher with spelling and
writing skills examine their papers and correct poor spelling? In a crowded
classroom and with a teacher without strong motivation to do so, it may be a
rare event to have a graded paper.
"I suppose," the Fat Man said, "I should make a strong rhetorical ending to
this, denouncing illiteracy and the school system and coming out in favor of
the one-room country schoolhouse, or home schooling, or traditional teaching
methods. However, poor writing is correctable, just as ignorance is
correctable, once one is aware of it and someone gives one the tools. May
someone reach out to those children."
Ziactrice
doesn't seem to be the real problem here, IMHO.
Innumeracy on the part of the reporter, shown by the
failure to write a story with any truly credible
statistics to back it up seems more a problem than
fourth graders with poor writing skills. Shouldn't
that reporter's editor be having a word about
specious writing for mere inch-filling being rather
a waste of salary monies?
After all, skills do vary. I still recall having
to correct my fourth grade teacher's mistake in
marking me off on a sentence containing the word
"fiend" because she had taken it as a "friend"
spelled incorrectly. This despite the context
of the sentence making it quite clear that
friend would be highly inappropriate.
Of course, I soon learned to curb any tendency to
use 'highly educated' vocabulary. A very large
portion of people seem to find it intimdidating
beyond bearing. They will shun you if you employ
such words in common conversation or writing.
Not in here, though. <happy dance>
Ziactrice
Peter Gregg
Anordil Galadon <bchar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4251eb8c.0108...@posting.google.com...
> Anordil walks into the room and sets down a soapbox, steps onto it,
> clears his throat, and begins to speak.
>
> 'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
> Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
> morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
> students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
> liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
> horror.'
>
> The following are excerpts from samples by anonymous fourth- and
> seventh-graders.
>
> The Grade 4 students were asked to read and summarize an article about
> frogs and toads, using only information found in the article and
> avoiding extraneous commentary.
>
> Spelling, grammatical mistakes, and other illiteracies have been left
> uncorrected.
>
> LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 4
> ----
> I found out that frogs and tods are a lot diffrint from each other.
> Lick tods have sort bake legs and forgs have long bak legs.
>
> Frightening, what?
>
> The Grade 7 students were asked to compose a response to a story
> called 'To Sleep Under the Stars.' They were expected to show an
> understanding of the story by discussing how the main character comes
> to appreciate the importance of family.
>
> LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 7
> -----
>
> There are lots of characters in the book, with different thoughts
> and feelings.
> The first is Cecilia. Cecilia interest is the stars. She cares about
> this more than anything. She is mad at her mom in the story.
>
> Disgusted yet? I am.
>
> Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
First things first: both kids can read, both can write. This is
spectacular. Whoever gave these papers 1 point was a little harsh. Turning
it in should be worth more than 1 point. Secondly both students obviously
got something out of the story. The first recognized that there is a
psisiological difference between frogs and toads. The second got some
character names and that they had different atitudes. Yes they wrote utter
crap but so what?
Secondly: I was addicted to TV from the time I was 4 years old until I was
25. If you took an alcoholism assesment questionaire and substituted 'watch
TV' for 'have a drink' I could have answered everyquestion yes. At the time
I could not live without TV. But I'm not stupid or functionally illiterate
or unable to learn. TV is totally irrelevant to character development.
Watching TV won't make you a zombie. Being treated like a number will make
you a zombie. Everybody blames TV which is as stupid as "Blame Canada!"
Peter
where did all these soapboxes come from?
maenad
> Disgusted yet? I am.
As far as I'm concerned, the most disgusting things about that article are
that they presented the work of these children, 'anonymous' or not, and that
they printed the lowest scoring papers without printing the highest scoring
papers.
The first is an incredible violation of privacy, IMO, even if it is
prettified with ostensible anonymity. The second is an outrageous bias. We
don't know the circumstances of those kids at all. Are they typical students?
Obviously not, they're at the bottom of the heap. Why are they there? Do they
have LD or other handicaps that might prevent them from having perfect
spelling or grammar or comprehension; but their presence in the class is
valuable to them? We don't know. Presenting their work, in isolation, as
convincing evidence that the system is fucked is SO dishonest that I wouldn't
trust anything else the author had to say on the topic.
> Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
Nope. I know where the off button is.
maenad -- half the kids are below average, and that ain't never gonna change
--
-------------------> maenad <at> vex <dot> net <-------------------
Rosanne
Time: Around Christmas
Location: Small-town America
Setting: Advertisement for a local nursery/greenhouse
Event: A special sale on "noble furs"
My husband and I wanted to picket the place with signs reading "Fir is
Murder" :-)
~ R
"Lee S. Billings" <stard...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9likhu$ujg$6...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Anordil Galadon
this forum. I would have had to reproduce an entire section of the LA
Times and the corresponding tables and graphs. Which to be perfectly
honest I had not the time or energy to do.
However, based on the numbers reported in the article Grade 4 students
in LA County placed in the 38th percentile when tested in Reading on
the Stanford 9. Grade 8 students placed in the 41st percentile in the
same subject, and, this is even more disturbing, Grade 10 students
placed in the 28th percentile in Reading. Statewide placement was
particularly frightening. Fourth-graders statewide placed in the 47th
percentile, eighth-grade students placed in the marginally acceptible
50th percentile, and tenth-graders placed at the 34th percentile.
Math scoring was equally dismal.
It is unfair to society to blame teachers, administrators, and the
Government for the failure of our students. The real culprits are the
parents.
Pat Kight
> Anordil walks into the room and sets down a soapbox, steps onto it,
> clears his throat, and begins to speak.
>
> 'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
> Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
> morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
> students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
> liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
> horror.'
>
> The following are excerpts from samples by anonymous fourth- and
> seventh-graders.
>
> The Grade 4 students were asked to read and summarize an article about
> frogs and toads, using only information found in the article and
> avoiding extraneous commentary.
>
> Spelling, grammatical mistakes, and other illiteracies have been left
> uncorrected.
>
> LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 4
(snip horrid examples.)
> Disgusted yet? I am.
"I'm not, particularly. If I read correctly, these excerpts came from
the lowest-scoring responses. I think I'd like to read the
highest-scoring responses, too, before I even got worried, much less
disgusted. Did the article provide any of those? If not, then it's
little more than education-bashing.
"Yeah, I know things are tough in today's schools. I just don't think
they're as bad as we're sometimes led to believe.
"Turn the clock back to what many consider the `good old days' of public
education, before the `school reforms' of the 1960s. My brother and I
were in grade school then. We went to the same schools, and had many of
the same teachers - he's just 14 months younger than me, and was neither
stupid nor delinquent as a kid. But I could - and still can - write
rings around him. His own writing, in grade 4, wouldn't have read much
better than those examples.
"He, on the other hand, has always been very good with things numeric,
while I need a calculator to do anything more complex than simple
addition and subtraction.
"Failure of an education system? I don't think so. Given any group of
kids, some will always do worse on these sorts of things than others.
And as fourth-graders, they've still got time to learn."
--Jezebel
kig...@peak.org
Joyce Melton
>It is unfair to society to blame teachers, administrators, and the
>Government for the failure of our students. The real culprits are the
>parents.
How's that again? Isn't there enough blame to go around? How about
some for the general electorate that crippled the funding of schools
in CA in the late seventies and took more than ten years to partially
replace it? That includes yours truly since I didn't work hard enough
at getting out the vote.
Blaming the parents as the "real culprits" is just too easy, like the
politicians who lately have decided that it is the school
administrators who should take the blame.
Dig deep, there's enough for everyone, in twenty years we went from
the best school system in the country to one well in the lower half.
The parents didn't do it all.
Joyce
D.J.
Anordil Galadon wrote:
[]Disgusted yet? I am.
[]Anyone ready to hurl their television out the window?
My post may not get out, evidently newsguy is having problems.
But I have watched thousands of hours of telly, and I can read and
write.
D.J.
--
djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard.
Updated: August 16, 2001
http://www.crosswinds.net/~drivein/ Drive-In Movie Theatres
Registered Linux user#185746
M Blaze Miskulin
> Everybody blames TV which is as stupid as "Blame Canada!"
You mean Canada *isn't* to blame?
Damn. Maybe it's Monoco. I'll have to go reformulate my plans and
change the invasion to Monoco.
--
M Blaze Miskulin
© MBM
Kris Overstreet
Galadon) wrote:
>Anordil walks into the room and sets down a soapbox, steps onto it,
>clears his throat, and begins to speak.
>
>'Ladies, Gentlemen, and others. I have before me a copy of the 'Los
>Angeles Times' dated 16 August, 2001. While perusing said paper this
>morning I discovered an article regarding the writing abilities of
>students in various grades throughout California. I am taking the
>liberty of reproducing them here for your own personal reading
>horror.'
>The Grade 7 students were asked to compose a response to a story
>called 'To Sleep Under the Stars.' They were expected to show an
>understanding of the story by discussing how the main character comes
>to appreciate the importance of family.
>
>LOWEST SCORE: 1 POINT - GRADE 7
>-----
>
> There are lots of characters in the book, with different thoughts
>and feelings.
> The first is Cecilia. Cecilia interest is the stars. She cares about
>this more than anything. She is mad at her mom in the story.
> Another person is Grandma. She also likes the stars. She is very ill
>and is recovering. She is also happy Cecilia came over.
> The last person is mom. She doesn't like the stars that much and
>loves here family a lot. She is sad because Cilicia can't go with her
>class.
> I don't really understand the essay question but this is what I
>think I'm suposed to do.
> This story showes that family is the most important thing in life.
I know way too many people who -TALK- like that, much less write like
it.
This isn't a matter of illiteracy, it's a matter of speech patterns
learned before schooling even begins IMHO. People tend to write as
they talk.
Redneck
Looking Wolf
[...]
>"Failure of an education system? I don't think so. Given any group of
>kids, some will always do worse on these sorts of things than others.
>And as fourth-graders, they've still got time to learn."
"Only if someone teaches them, Jez," the wolf says, sadly. "The problem is
that, in American public schools today, you can't count on anyone ever
teaching these kids.
"At Penn State, I'm surrounded by what are supposedly some of the most
intelligent, well-educated young people in the country. This school is so
selective that, the year I applied, they turned away 4,000 valedictorians
from around the country. Yet most of my fellow students have frighteningly
large gaps in their educations. Poor vocabulary, nonexistent spelling and
grammar skills, an inability to solve simple algebraic equations, no
comprehension of simple physics and biology, and a complete lack of
understanding of basic logic are commonplace. And these are supposed to be
the best our public schools can offer.
"The dozens who quit astronomy classes after the first day because they're
surprised to find they won't be learning about horoscopes are just the tip
of the iceberg. If we just wait for the problem to disappear, we'll wind
up much like the Titanic."
...Looking Wolf
Larisa
There are several variables. One of the most important ones is the
cult of ignorance in contemporary American culture. Any other country
would laugh George W. out of office; we consider his idiocy to be
"endearing". Name one important public figure who is known for
his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
a hoop.
When children have no intelligent role models to emulate, will they
consider intelligence - or the appearance of intelligence, which good
writing gives - to be important?
Now, as a tutor, I make my money off the fact that our school system
is wrecked, by providing help to its victims. But I would rather live
in a world where my work were unnecessary.
Larisa
Joyce Melton
>Name one important public figure who is known for
>his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>a hoop.
Abigail van Buren.
Joyce
Lee S. Billings
I'm not sure I agree that *intelligence* is what she's most famed for. Common
sense, certainly, but that's not quite the same thing. (Which is not to say
that I don't consider her highly intelligent; I'm just saying that I suspect
your response would get a "bzzzt" on Family Feud.)
My first candidate was Bill Gates, but at this point I think his primary
attribute is perceived as the ability to make money rather than intelligence
per se -- which, again, is not to say that the two aren't linked.
Neil
>Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in <3B7D5E2C...@ucs.orst.edu>:
>
>[...]
>>"Failure of an education system? I don't think so. Given any group of
>>kids, some will always do worse on these sorts of things than others.
>>And as fourth-graders, they've still got time to learn."
>
>"Only if someone teaches them, Jez," the wolf says, sadly. "The problem is
>that, in American public schools today, you can't count on anyone ever
>teaching these kids.
>
>"At Penn State, I'm surrounded by what are supposedly some of the most
>intelligent, well-educated young people in the country. This school is so
>selective that, the year I applied, they turned away 4,000 valedictorians
>from around the country. Yet most of my fellow students have frighteningly
>large gaps in their educations. Poor vocabulary, nonexistent spelling and
>grammar skills, an inability to solve simple algebraic equations, no
>comprehension of simple physics and biology, and a complete lack of
>understanding of basic logic are commonplace. And these are supposed to be
>the best our public schools can offer.
A bit off-topic... But I was once a TA at Penn State. My
statistics class complained when they found out I kept
graded papers in three files marked Good, Bad, and Ugly.
Lynn Allen
> Name one important public figure who is known for
> his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
> clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
> a hoop.
Maya Angelou
Colin Powell
Ruth Bader Ginsberg
Bill Gates....I'm sure there are zillions more.
If the question becomes "name an important public figure that CHILDREN
KNOW ABOUT" who doesn't fit your criteria, then we have something to
discuss. Why don't kids know more about Stephen Hawking than they do
about Madonna? Because kids don't see what isn't shown to them.
Why don't teachers spend 10 minutes a week talking about some totally
admirable but non-newsworthy person during each school year? Believe it
or not, we do this at dinner as a semi-regular event...talk to our kids
about someone who really makes a difference. We let them hear us
admiring people for knowledge, intelligence, integrity, dedication or
service to fellow human beings.
They still see the media presentation of the "beautiful people" and the
sports figures...but we mock the prettyfolk who are nothing but pretty
and distinguish very clearly between admirable sports figures (Tiger
Woods, for ex.) and those who deserve nothing but disdain.
Face it...putting those bottom of the barrel "test results" into the
post that started this thread is not reasonable as a measure of school
success. Half of all kids are below average, as Joyce pointed out. Some
kids are not and never will be educable. This is not new. It's just more
glaringly obvious as more and more jobs require knowledge workers, not
strong backs.
What scares me more are the geniuses in the California legislature that
tried to put through a bill saying that California's educational
spending be tied to the national average. They didn't seem to understand
that CA spending CONTRIBUTED TO the average and that they'd be
committing to an endless feedback loop with such legislation.
What I'd like to see is a lot LESS testing (and concommitant "teaching
to the test") and more actual time spent on academics. My kids now spend
as many as FOUR WEEKS during the school year doing nothing but testing.
I'm worried that they don't know what they need because "it wasn't on
the test." The Holy Friggin Test. :/
Lymaree
well, it IS a soapbox thread!
Neil
>The reporter provided more samples than those which I submitted to
>this forum. I would have had to reproduce an entire section of the LA
>Times and the corresponding tables and graphs. Which to be perfectly
>honest I had not the time or energy to do.
Is there an on-line version of the article? The August 17 article,
"English Learners in Grade School Improving"
http://www.latimes.com/editions/ventura/la-000066842aug17.story
is not so negative, and points out that the numbers are
slanted by a large population of students with little
proficiency in English.
>However, based on the numbers reported in the article Grade 4 students
>in LA County placed in the 38th percentile when tested in Reading on
>the Stanford 9. Grade 8 students placed in the 41st percentile in the
>same subject, and, this is even more disturbing, Grade 10 students
>placed in the 28th percentile in Reading. Statewide placement was
>particularly frightening. Fourth-graders statewide placed in the 47th
>percentile, eighth-grade students placed in the marginally acceptible
>50th percentile, and tenth-graders placed at the 34th percentile.
>
>Math scoring was equally dismal.
>
>It is unfair to society to blame teachers, administrators, and the
>Government for the failure of our students. The real culprits are the
>parents.
Even if every school district in the country had perfect
teachers, perfect tools and perfect students, someone
would have to score in the bottom percentile in any given
category. Even in the worst possible scenario, someone,
somewhere, would score in the top percentile. All these
numbers tell us is that students at California schools, and
LA schools in particular, score at or below average, as
compared to students nationwide. This DOES NOT say
anything AT ALL about how good or bad that average is.
So if low scores are the fault of parents, parents in
California must be worse than parents elsewhere in the
US. Possible, but I suspect a large proportion of non-
english speaking households is a more likely cause of
the discrepancy.
And that's assuming the tests themselves are a valid
measurement. As I've said here before, particularly in
discussions with Rivka, I believe such tests are given
improperly and missused more often than not. Frequently
they test how comfortable students are with tests, not how
well they can read.
If a 50th percentile, average, reading score is marginally
acceptable to you, I assume that means you feel the
national average reading achievement level is too low.
OK, I agree, but the data here does not support the theory.
Joyce Melton
>In article <lmkrntsbl5i82dbqa...@4ax.com>, jo...@qnez.com says...
>>
>>lar...@geeklife.com (Larisa) wrote:
>>
>>>Name one important public figure who is known for
>>>his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>>>clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>>>a hoop.
>>
>>Abigail van Buren.
>
>I'm not sure I agree that *intelligence* is what she's most famed for. Common
>sense, certainly, but that's not quite the same thing. (Which is not to say
>that I don't consider her highly intelligent; I'm just saying that I suspect
>your response would get a "bzzzt" on Family Feud.)
>
>My first candidate was Bill Gates, but at this point I think his primary
>attribute is perceived as the ability to make money rather than intelligence
>per se -- which, again, is not to say that the two aren't linked.
My first candidate was actually John Cleese. :) Then I made a list of
six or eight names, decided to cut it down to one and ended up with
Abby. I considered intelligence as intellectual achievement meaning
excellence in an intellectual field; all these people write books or
conduct interviews or something else needing thought:
The other ones on the list included:
Whoopi Goldberg,
Oprah,
Abby and her sister, Ann Landers,
Dennis Miller,
Michael Palin,
Stephen King,
Drew Carey
and the crews on both versions of "Whose Line is it Anyway?"
Scott Adams.
I could make this list arbitrarily long.
Joyce
Pen
"Gregory Baker" <nyekul...@earthlink.net> wrote:
<snippage>
>"I wonder how many times these children have had a teacher with spelling and
>writing skills examine their papers and correct poor spelling? In a crowded
>classroom and with a teacher without strong motivation to do so, it may be a
>rare event to have a graded paper.
My daughter was highly indignant to discover that many of the incorrect
spellings in her schoolwork had not been marked out by the teacher. How,
she asked crossly, am I supposed to get it right if nobody tells me I'm
getting it wrong?
Pen
Mary Creasey
"Pen" <p...@obvious.pensnest.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B7A4064F...@161.33.128.215...
Simple--if in her program, getting the ideas down on paper was more
important than doing so with correct grammar and spelling. I just
went through four years of high school with my younger son, and they
accepted hand-PRINTED pencil work rather than getting none at all.
Mary the Filker
>
>
Neil
>"Pen" <p...@obvious.pensnest.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:B7A4064F...@161.33.128.215...
>> In article <j37f7.17039$ZM2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>> "Gregory Baker" <nyekul...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> <snippage>
>>
>> >"I wonder how many times these children have had a teacher with spelling
>and
>> >writing skills examine their papers and correct poor spelling? In a
>crowded
>> >classroom and with a teacher without strong motivation to do so, it may
>be a
>> >rare event to have a graded paper.
>>
>> My daughter was highly indignant to discover that many of the incorrect
>> spellings in her schoolwork had not been marked out by the teacher. How,
>> she asked crossly, am I supposed to get it right if nobody tells me I'm
>> getting it wrong?
>>
>important than doing so with correct grammar and spelling. I just
>went through four years of high school with my younger son, and they
>accepted hand-PRINTED pencil work rather than getting none at all.
I have to disagree with this. Yes, the emphasis of an assignment may
be on creativity, comprehension, etc. but IMO a teacher should never
let a noticed mistake go uncorrected. I can understand if a teacher
does not take off points for errors that have nothing to do with the
assignment (spelling errors in a math class, for example, or factual
errors in an english composition) but they should still be identified and
pointed out to the student.
Luria
(Where am I and what am I doing in this soapbox?)
Rosanne
basically just said "very good". My sister saw several uncorrected spelling
mistakes. When she confronted the teacher, the response was "well, we don't
want to demean the students, or damage their self-esteem". To which my
sister responded, "You will send ALL of my daughter's work home. If YOU
can't grade it, _I_ will".
~ R
"Gregory Baker" <nyekul...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:j37f7.17039$ZM2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Greenecat" <nor...@adoc.captec.com> wrote in message
> news:3B7C7397...@adoc.captec.com...
> >
> >
> > Anordil Galadon wrote:
> --->8 snip!---------------
> "I wonder how many times these children have had a teacher with spelling
and
> writing skills examine their papers and correct poor spelling? In a
crowded
> classroom and with a teacher without strong motivation to do so, it may be
a
> rare event to have a graded paper.
--------->8 snip!--------
> "
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
forth, saying:
>Of course, I soon learned to curb any tendency to
>use 'highly educated' vocabulary. A very large
>portion of people seem to find it intimdidating
>beyond bearing. They will shun you if you employ
>such words in common conversation or writing.
I was astounded, a few months ago, when in ASSd (alt.sex.stories.d --
'd' for 'discussion'), a group which is largely inhabited by writers,
there was a chorus of objection to the use of 'rictus' in describing
an orgasmic woman's expression. Not, mind you, that folk thought the
word inaccurate--rather, the objectors didn't know the word. Several
of them write well, but clearly haven't the vocabulary & love of words
that one might expect from writers.
--
-denny-
curmudgeonly editor
Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.
--"The Rules of Chocolate"
kig...@ucs.orst.edu
Looking Wolf <looki...@psu.edu> wrote:
>Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in <3B7D5E2C...@ucs.orst.edu>:
>
>[...]
>>"Failure of an education system? I don't think so. Given any group of
>>kids, some will always do worse on these sorts of things than others.
>>And as fourth-graders, they've still got time to learn."
>
>"Only if someone teaches them, Jez," the wolf says, sadly. "The problem is
>that, in American public schools today, you can't count on anyone ever
>teaching these kids.
"Pretty broad brush you're painting with there, O Wolf," the Spinster says
with a wry grin. "There are plenty of fine teachers in American public
schools. There are plenty of fine schools, too, for that matter - I have
one right here in my neighborhood, in a smallish (pop. 38,000), largely
blue-collar city in the Pacific Northwest. I know teachers, administrators
and more important, kids who go to that school. For the most part, they're
working hard and doing pretty well.
"Some, of course, aren't. For many of them, it seems to be a question of
motivation - a `what's in it for me?' attitude that I do find troubling,
whether it comes from kids or adults.
"Now, I've been accused before of having too sunny an outlook about Life
in General, and I plead guilty," Jezebel says. "But I've been hearing
about America's `education crisis' ever since I started public school
myself, 40-odd years ago. Yet somehow - " and she looks around the bar " -
I still manage to run into bright, motivated, knowledgeable young products
of the American education system everywhere I go.
"And I suspect the proportion of them to the general population has
remained fairly constant over the past century or so. Test scores to the
contrary, I don't see a lot of evidence that we're short on literate
brain-power - or that *all* American schools are cesspools of bad
teaching, violence and bureaucracy, although I'm sure some are.
>"At Penn State, I'm surrounded by what are supposedly some of the most
>intelligent, well-educated young people in the country. This school is so
>selective that, the year I applied, they turned away 4,000 valedictorians
>from around the country. Yet most of my fellow students have frighteningly
>large gaps in their educations.
"Most?" Jez cocks an eyebrow quizzically. "I'd be curious how you're
measuring that."
" Poor vocabulary, nonexistent spelling and
>grammar skills, an inability to solve simple algebraic equations, no
>comprehension of simple physics and biology, and a complete lack of
>understanding of basic logic are commonplace. And these are supposed to be
>the best our public schools can offer.
"So, how did you escape this dreaded fate? Were you home-schooled?" It's
an honest question.
--Jezebel
kig...@peak.org
maenad
> Name one important public figure who is known for
> his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
> clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
> a hoop.
Recognizing that being "known" is not at all the same thing as being
popular:
Henry Kissinger
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
Robin Williams
Meryl Streep
Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
Maya Angelou
Jane Goodall
Steven Hawkings
That's ten.
maenad
kig...@ucs.orst.edu
Looking Wolf
>In article <Xns9100BE3277...@24.12.106.199>,
>Looking Wolf <looki...@psu.edu> wrote:
>>Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in
>><3B7D5E2C...@ucs.orst.edu>:
>>
>>[...]
>>>"Failure of an education system? I don't think so. Given any group of
>>>kids, some will always do worse on these sorts of things than others.
>>>And as fourth-graders, they've still got time to learn."
>>
>>"Only if someone teaches them, Jez," the wolf says, sadly. "The
>>problem is that, in American public schools today, you can't count on
>>anyone ever teaching these kids.
>
>"Pretty broad brush you're painting with there, O Wolf," the Spinster
>says with a wry grin. "There are plenty of fine teachers in American
>public schools.
[...]
"I wouldn't dispute that. There are indeed many fine teachers out there.
There are not enough of them to go around, however. Thus, one cannot count
on a good teacher reaching any given child."
>"Now, I've been accused before of having too sunny an outlook about Life
>in General, and I plead guilty," Jezebel says. "But I've been hearing
>about America's `education crisis' ever since I started public school
>myself, 40-odd years ago. Yet somehow - " and she looks around the bar "
>- I still manage to run into bright, motivated, knowledgeable young
>products of the American education system everywhere I go.
[...]
"Sunny isn't bad," the wolf grins. "It only becomes a problem when one
adds rose-tinted goggles (and I'm not saying that you have).
"I run into intelligent, motivated, knowledgeable young people, too. But
for every one of them, I meet twenty of the other variety."
>>"At Penn State, I'm surrounded by what are supposedly some of the most
>>intelligent, well-educated young people in the country. This school is
>>so selective that, the year I applied, they turned away 4,000
>>valedictorians from around the country. Yet most of my fellow students
>>have frighteningly large gaps in their educations.
>
>"Most?" Jez cocks an eyebrow quizzically. "I'd be curious how you're
>measuring that."
"I've spent a fair amount of time in two majors, astrophysics and English.
I quit the astrophysics major because the 'College of Science' here is
really a second College of Engineering, and I don't have the right
temperament to be an engineer. In both sets of students, out of the
hundreds that I have met, maybe ten or twenty came to this university
supplied with what I would consider a good education. My standards aren't
ridiculously strict, either. The rest have an assortment of the
deficiencies I listed (which are re-quoted below)."
>" Poor vocabulary, nonexistent spelling and
>>grammar skills, an inability to solve simple algebraic equations, no
>>comprehension of simple physics and biology, and a complete lack of
>>understanding of basic logic are commonplace. And these are supposed
>>to be the best our public schools can offer.
>
>"So, how did you escape this dreaded fate? Were you home-schooled?" It's
>an honest question.
"And I'll give it an honest answer." The wolf smiles again. "I'm self-
schooled. Theoretically I had a public-school education. But that only
works in theory. In practice, I corrected my teachers at least as often as
they corrected me. As an example, I had a biology teacher who thought he
had invented the mule deer as an example for a test question. I had to
bring in photographs of mule deer to convince him otherwise. (In case you
were wondering, he wanted us to apply the old eat/excrete/reproduce
definition of life to his 'mule deer'. Since the word 'mule' occurred in
its name, we were expected to say that it wasn't really alive since it
couldn't reproduce.) And this was by far not the worst of my teachers.
"So I took care of my own education. I read. I read most of the books in
my mother's collection, and spent all my available time in the school
library or the local public library. So I wound up with a decent education
despite the best efforts of the public schools I attended. Admittedly,
there are large gaps--I've never read most of the 'classics' for instance,
since I found them unutterably boring as a child--but it is still far
better than the sparse, often incorrect information fed to me in the public
schools.
"Maybe I was just unlucky, maybe this is coloring my view of public
schools. I admit that this is a strong possibility. However, I have
walked away from enough conversations with other public school survivors
wanting to weep because I could not employ a three-syllable word without
receiving blank stares that I doubt my possible bias has completely skewed
the evidence.
"And yes, I know that was a run-on sentence," he chuckles. "I *like* run-
on sentences sometimes."
...Looking Wolf
FreeTrav
>Peter Gregg wrote:
>> Everybody blames TV which is as stupid as "Blame Canada!"
>You mean Canada *isn't* to blame?
>Damn. Maybe it's Monoco. I'll have to go reformulate my plans and
>change the invasion to Monoco.
Where's Monoco? If you're referring to that small tax and gambling haven
on the French coast, capital Monte Carlo, that's "Monaco".
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----
Gary
>Where's Monoco? If you're referring to that small tax and gambling haven
>on the French coast, capital Monte Carlo, that's "Monaco".
Isn't Monoco the Monolithic Oil Company that owns most of the middle east?
Gary
"Old submariners never die; they just don't get to go down as often"
D_Jim
>Larisa wrote:
>> Name one important public figure who is known for
>> his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>> clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>> a hoop.
>
>Recognizing that being "known" is not at all the same thing as being
>popular:
>
>Henry Kissinger
>Bill Clinton
>Hillary Clinton
>Robin Williams
>Meryl Streep
>Bill Gates
>Steve Jobs
>Maya Angelou
>Jane Goodall
>Steven Hawkings
I hate to say this, but I don't wanna see any of them
take their clothes off. Appealing the clothes or otherwise...
D.J.
--
djim55 atty datasync dotty com Disclaimer: Standard
http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/index.html
http://www.crosswinds.net/~drivein/ drive-in movie theaters update Aug 15,2001
http://www.datasync.com/~djim55/index.html
Matthew Russotto
Larisa <lar...@geeklife.com> wrote:
>
>There are several variables. One of the most important ones is the
>cult of ignorance in contemporary American culture. Any other country
>would laugh George W. out of office; we consider his idiocy to be
>"endearing".
I doubt W is as dumb as popular perception makes him out to be. In
any case, before you start with "any other country", I must point to
Italy -- I seem to recall a whole succession of less-than-adequate
governments there.
>Name one important public figure who is known for
>his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>a hoop.
Henry Kissinger. Or, for a more current one, Colin Powell. (I don't
know if they actually are intelligent, but that certainly seems to be
the perception.) Stephen Hawking (not doubting his intelligence for a
second). Bobby "The Brain"... err, nevermind, he's a pro wrestler.
>When children have no intelligent role models to emulate, will they
>consider intelligence - or the appearance of intelligence, which good
>writing gives - to be important?
>
>Now, as a tutor, I make my money off the fact that our school system
>is wrecked, by providing help to its victims. But I would rather live
>in a world where my work were unnecessary.
>
>Larisa
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
=====
Get Caught Reading, Go To Jail!
A message from the Association of American Publishers
Free Dmitry Sklyarov! DMCA delenda est!
http://www.freedmitry.org
Matthew Russotto
At the risk of appearing ignorant: "Who?"
Neil
>Larisa wrote:
>> Name one important public figure who is known for
>> his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>> clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>> a hoop.
>
>Recognizing that being "known" is not at all the same thing as being
>popular:
>
>Henry Kissinger
>Bill Clinton
>Hillary Clinton
>Robin Williams
>Meryl Streep
>Bill Gates
>Steve Jobs
>Maya Angelou
>Jane Goodall
>Steven Hawkings
Problem is, there are more reasons to be known than are
stated above. For example, while both the Clintons are
intelligent, that's not what either of them are known for.
(Hereabouts, that is.)
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
<hatespam...@hotmail.com> held forth, saying:
>Amen. My niece brought home "corrected" homework for her mother to see. It
>basically just said "very good". My sister saw several uncorrected spelling
>mistakes. When she confronted the teacher, the response was "well, we don't
>want to demean the students, or damage their self-esteem". To which my
>sister responded, "You will send ALL of my daughter's work home. If YOU
>can't grade it, _I_ will".
>
>~ R
This is a person I call an 'educator'--not even 'instructor' -- and
'teacher' is reserved for the good ones, who actually *do* teach.
Good for your sister.
M Blaze Miskulin
> Larisa wrote:
> >Name one important public figure who is known for
> >his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
> >clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
> >a hoop.
(define "important" public figure, please?)
Bill Fry the Science Guy :) (the modern Mr. Wizard!)
Donna Shalala (politician)
Tommy Thompson (politician)
Oprah Whinfrey (sp?) (Public personality... What *do* you call her?)
Lou Reed (musician)
Charlie Rose (journalist)
Stephen Hawking (scientist)
Harrison Ford (actor, volunteer rescuer)
Maureen Dowd (columnist)
Sir Bob Geldolf, KBE (musician, public activist)
George Carlin (comedian)
Gloria Steinem (feminist)
Yasser Arafat (politician)
John Paul II (pope)
There are plenty of people who are famous, and who are intelligent, and
who don't look good, can't throw a basketball, and don't get naked on
film. In addition to those on the list, there are several more that I
could name that would mean nothing to most of the people here, because
they're regional or local people. They are public figures, they are
important people, they just aren't known on a national or international
scale.
In the town I grew up (and just down the road from where I now live), we
just lost one such man. Butch Wickham was one of the cornerstones of
this city. Paul Dalton is another. I don't know what the town will do
when Paul dies. He's the one who organizes all the veterans' and
patriotic-type events in town. He's a walking history book. Teddy
Goeres supplies this town with its park equipment, its landscaping, and
personally sees to the planting and maintenance. Peg Hilliker has been
the librarian for as long as I can remember. She goes out of her way to
help kids, and is very active in the local scene. Carl Sanger, was the
high-school, then middle-school art teacher for at least 16 years. He
got to know every student who walked into his room. He put up with no
shit, and treated us all like people. Students could go to him and talk
about problems with drugs, abuse, rape, depression, and any host of
problems and know that they would be listened to, judged fairly, talked
to honestly, and not automatically handed over to "the authorities" who
have failed to fix anything the last 7 times.
Who is more important? Who has more influence? The guy you see on TV
one a week for 2 hours, or in the movies 2 times a year? or the men and
women you see every day, whom you have conversations with, who listen to
you, talk to you, and interact with you?
Carl affected my life 1,000 times more than anyone I've ever seen on TV,
in the movies, or in magazines.
--
M Blaze Miskulin
Winterborne Scenic Studios
http://www.winterborne-ss.com
------------
© MBM
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
Russotto) held forth, saying:
>In article <lmkrntsbl5i82dbqa...@4ax.com>,
>Joyce Melton <jo...@qnez.com> wrote:
>>lar...@geeklife.com (Larisa) wrote:
>>
>>>Name one important public figure who is known for
>>>his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>>>clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>>>a hoop.
>>
>>Abigail van Buren.
>
>At the risk of appearing ignorant: "Who?"
aka 'Dear Aunt Blabby'
('Dear Abby')
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
<brb...@winterborne-ss.com> held forth, saying:
>
>> Larisa wrote:
>
>> >Name one important public figure who is known for
>> >his/her intelligence, rather than his/her ability to look good in
>> >clothes, undress appealingly on the screen, or throw a basketball into
>> >a hoop.
>
>(define "important" public figure, please?)
>
>Bill Fry the Science Guy :) (the modern Mr. Wizard!)
That's Bill Nye
>Donna Shalala (politician)
>Tommy Thompson (politician)
>Oprah Whinfrey (sp?) (Public personality... What *do* you call her?)
>Lou Reed (musician)
>Charlie Rose (journalist)
>Stephen Hawking (scientist)
>Harrison Ford (actor, volunteer rescuer)
>Maureen Dowd (columnist)
>Sir Bob Geldolf, KBE (musician, public activist)
>George Carlin (comedian)
>Gloria Steinem (feminist)
>Yasser Arafat (politician)
>John Paul II (pope)
Carl Sagan
James Burke
<snipped list of local folk>
M Blaze Miskulin
M Blaze Miskulin held forth, saying:
> >Bill Fry the Science Guy :) (the modern Mr. Wizard!)
dennyw wrote:
> That's Bill Nye
Oops. I stand corrected. Bill Frye is the shop teacher in town. :)
Pen
ndav...@aol.comical (Neil ) wrote:
Pen (dat's me) wrote:
>>> My daughter was highly indignant to discover that many of the incorrect
>>> spellings in her schoolwork had not been marked out by the teacher. How,
>>> she asked crossly, am I supposed to get it right if nobody tells me I'm
>>> getting it wrong?
>>>
Mary the Filker wrote:
>>Simple--if in her program, getting the ideas down on paper was more
>>important than doing so with correct grammar and spelling. I just
>>went through four years of high school with my younger son, and they
>>accepted hand-PRINTED pencil work rather than getting none at all.
Luria wrote:
>I have to disagree with this. Yes, the emphasis of an assignment may
>be on creativity, comprehension, etc. but IMO a teacher should never
>let a noticed mistake go uncorrected. I can understand if a teacher
>does not take off points for errors that have nothing to do with the
>assignment (spelling errors in a math class, for example, or factual
>errors in an english composition) but they should still be identified and
>pointed out to the student.
I completely agree with Luria.
Interestingly, my daughter had more respect for the Geography teacher who
corrected mis-spellings than for the teachers who didn't bother.
Pen
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
held forth, saying:
>nterestingly, my daughter had more respect for the Geography teacher who
>corrected mis-spellings than for the teachers who didn't bother.
Of course. She could tell who cared and was trying to help her.
Larisa
> Interestingly, my daughter had more respect for the Geography teacher who
> corrected mis-spellings than for the teachers who didn't bother.
>
> Pen
That should not be a surprise at all. Children naturally respect
competence. I know that my mother, who is a very strict teacher (no
mushy "self-esteem" stuff for her) was many kids' favorite teacher.
She actually cared about her subject and cared about her students'
learning it - and transmitted her passion for mathematics to her
students.
For the record, I correct my math student's spelling. She doesn't
mind. She also doesn't mind that I make her do arithmetic in her head
or on paper rather than use a calculator. Her self-esteem doesn't
appear to be affected.
LM
David Harden
: After all, skills do vary. I still recall having
: to correct my fourth grade teacher's mistake in
: marking me off on a sentence containing the word
: "fiend" because she had taken it as a "friend"
: spelled incorrectly. This despite the context
: of the sentence making it quite clear that
: friend would be highly inappropriate.
"Do you recall if it was because she didn't know 'fiend' or because
she thought a 4th-grader 'wasn't supposed' to know it?"
--
For every stupidity, there is an equal and opposite stupidity.
Ziactrice
David Harden wrote:
>
> In <141b3d17.01081...@posting.google.com>, Ziactrice wrote:
>
> : After all, skills do vary. I still recall having
> : to correct my fourth grade teacher's mistake in
> : marking me off on a sentence containing the word
> : "fiend" because she had taken it as a "friend"
> : spelled incorrectly. This despite the context
> : of the sentence making it quite clear that
> : friend would be highly inappropriate.
>
> "Do you recall if it was because she didn't know 'fiend' or because
> she thought a 4th-grader 'wasn't supposed' to know it?"
'Wasn't supposed'... she got it once I made her actually _read_
the sentence I'd written.
Zia
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 10:45 AM, bchar...@hotmail.com (Anordil Galadon) said:
>It is unfair to society to blame teachers, administrators, and the
>Government for the failure of our students. The real culprits are the
>parents.
The state requires attendence at school; that gives them some
responsibility. The state requires paying taxes intended to pay for
teaching; that gives them some responsibility. There have even been
cases where teachers chastised parents because they had taught their
children to read before the "proper" age.
In our system it would as unreasonable to absolve the schools of
responsibility as it would be to absolve the parents. Give the parents
full control and then they should have full responsibility; that
approach would have obvious problems.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2
Team OS/2
Team PL/I
Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.
I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
domain acm dot org user shmuel to contact me. Do not reply to
spam...@library.lspace.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 08:14 PM, ly...@semiotics.com (Lynn Allen) said:
>Some
>kids are not and never will be educable.
That may be true, but I don't believe that the personnel in the public
schools are qualified to accurately recognize those case, and I don't
consider it acceptable to have a child's education suffer because a
teacher incorrectly thought that he couldn't learn.
>What I'd like to see is a lot LESS testing (and concommitant
>"teaching to the test")
The problem isn't that there is testing; the problem is that the tests
are improperly designed. Unfortunately, doing it right would cost more
money, so it isn't likely to happen. "Teaching to the test" is only
possible because the schools can roughly predict what will be on the
test. If the tests covered a random sampling of the curriculum, was
not reused and required written answers rather than multiple choice,
than it would not be possible for teachers to "work the system".
Craig Motbey
daras...@yahoo.com says...
<snip>
>After all, skills do vary. I still recall having
>to correct my fourth grade teacher's mistake in
>marking me off on a sentence containing the word
>"fiend" because she had taken it as a "friend"
>spelled incorrectly. This despite the context
>of the sentence making it quite clear that
>friend would be highly inappropriate.
I had a Year 11 (ie: students about 16 years old) Visual Art
teacher criticise me for using the word "subdermal": she didn't
know what it meant, and thought I'd made it up...
--
Craig Motbey
Pat Kight
> kig...@ucs.orst.edu wrote in <9lme3l$mj1$5...@news.orst.edu>:
(We were talking about public education, when I asked...)
>>"So, how did you escape this dreaded fate? Were you home-schooled?" It's
>>an honest question.
>>
>
> "And I'll give it an honest answer." The wolf smiles again. "I'm self-
> schooled.
Jez pops back in briefly (the computer at home is trying to force me
into an ABEND state) to nod. "Good for you! I think that's the
`motivation' thing I mentioned. IME, *most* of the best and brightest
are self-schooled, in the sense that you describe it ... and always have
been.
"It's the nature of bright, motivated young people to want to go beyond
what they can learn in school. Just as it's the nature of schools, which
must teach the dimmest as well as the brightest, to try to give students
some minimum level of knowledge, socialization and problem solving
skills. Institutions with responsibility for large numbers of young
minds can't possibly deal with each of them as individuals, no matter
how hard they try. Not with the limited resources we give them to do
their jobs.
"I wonder if part of the problem here is that we expect too *much* from
our schools?"
--Jezebel
kig...@peak.org
Pen
lar...@geeklife.com (Larisa) wrote:
>That should not be a surprise at all. Children naturally respect
>competence. I know that my mother, who is a very strict teacher (no
>mushy "self-esteem" stuff for her) was many kids' favorite teacher.
>She actually cared about her subject and cared about her students'
>learning it - and transmitted her passion for mathematics to her
>students.
>
>For the record, I correct my math student's spelling. She doesn't
>mind. She also doesn't mind that I make her do arithmetic in her head
>or on paper rather than use a calculator. Her self-esteem doesn't
>appear to be affected.
Hah - I should think her self-esteem will be enhanced, by the knowledge of
her increased competence.
BOYC?
Pen
Lee S. Billings
says...
And isn't there a wonderfully malicious pleasure in displaying the dictionary
entry for the word in question? <vbeg>
Celine
--
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_
Leslie
On Aug 20, 2001, in <B7A6FA96...@161.33.128.215>,
Pen had this to say:
> Larisa said:
> >For the record, I correct my math student's spelling. She doesn't
> >mind. She also doesn't mind that I make her do arithmetic in her head
> >or on paper rather than use a calculator. Her self-esteem doesn't
> >appear to be affected.
>
> Hah - I should think her self-esteem will be enhanced, by the knowledge
> of her increased competence.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"This bad grade is lowering my self-esteem!"
"Then you should work harder so you don't get bad grades."
"Your denial of my victimhood is lowering my self-esteem!"
-- Calvin & Hobbes by Watterson
Leslie, recalling Laura's schoolwork in the _Little House_ books.
--
** "If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane." - J. Buffett **
*** The FAQS of Usenet: <news:news.announce.newusers> ***
**** If you love any of your rights, defend all of them. ****
John Ockerbloom
>"And I suspect the proportion of them to the general population has
>remained fairly constant over the past century or so. Test scores to the
>contrary, I don't see a lot of evidence that we're short on literate
>brain-power - or that *all* American schools are cesspools of bad
>teaching, violence and bureaucracy, although I'm sure some are.
John nods. "There appears to be a *lot* of variation between
different public school districts. The variation is especially
noticeable in places like the Philadelphia area, where some of the
suburbs bordering the city spend twice as much per student as the city
school district does. (And the city school district is still
running a deficit in the hundreds of millions of dollars.)
While I agree that test scores by themselves shouldn't be the
final word on school quality, the difference in scores between
students in the suburban public schools and those in the city
public schools-- even the ones in higher-income neighborhoods-- is striking."
"It's a vicious cycle-- many folks with kids who can afford it move
out of the city to go to better public schools. This further depresses
the tax base, which gives the school district even less to work with,
and so on. Most of the 'flight' occurs at the middle-income level;
the upper-income households seem to mostly use the many
private schools in the area, and can stay put. And the lower-income
households can't move as easily. But the city has to have a large and
stable middle-income population to keep itself going, in the long term."
"Which is not to say that no good teaching goes on in the city's
public schools. Some of the city's teachers are excellent, and
I admire that they stay that way despite all the obstacles
in their path. But I know that in a few years, when our son
gets to be school-aged, staying in the city would require
making some hard choices."
"At the moment, I'm not really a strong advocate of any specific
political proposal for school choice, although I do believe that it's
worth giving many of them a try on a small scale to see how well
they work. (I think the best solutions should address both
choice *and* equity, and can think of some ways this might be done.)
But I have little patience for the groups that object in
a knee-jerk fashion to school choice, often saying 'but it would create
a tiered system!' Because, from where I stand, it's clear
that we already *have* a strongly tiered system, even if only
public schools are considered. And I think it needs fixing."
John looks down, and carefully climbs off the teetering stack
of soapboxes.
John Mark Ockerbloom
David Harden
: David Harden wrote:
: >
: > "Do you recall if it was because she didn't know 'fiend' or because
: > she thought a 4th-grader 'wasn't supposed' to know it?"
: 'Wasn't supposed'... she got it once I made her actually _read_
: the sentence I'd written.
"At least you were able to get her to do that, and she was (I presume)
willing to admit that she'd been wrong. That counts for a lot in my
book."
David Harden
: In article <9lq7nm$r30$1...@tomahawk.unsw.edu.au>,
: c.mo...@diespamdie.unsw.edu.au
: says...
: >
: >I had a Year 11 (ie: students about 16 years old) Visual Art
: >know what it meant, and thought I'd made it up...
: And isn't there a wonderfully malicious pleasure in displaying the
: dictionary
: entry for the word in question? <vbeg>
"If it's in the dictionaries you have at hand. It's not in either of
the somewhat-old ones I have, though 'dermal' is in both."
Larisa
Institutions with responsibility for large numbers of young
> minds can't possibly deal with each of them as individuals, no matter
> how hard they try. Not with the limited resources we give them to do
> their jobs.
>
> "I wonder if part of the problem here is that we expect too *much* from
> our schools?"
I dunno. Kids spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in school. Why are
they wasting so much time? Can't the teacher squeeze in a few minutes
to teach them how to add two fractions?
I agree that institutions are not the best place to give kids an
education - so why are we sending them to institutions?
If I ever have kids, I'm homeschooling them. Homeschoolers get a much
better education, on average - even if you include in that average the
evangelical fundie types who don't teach the kids anything at all.
LM
Martin Julian DeMello
> c.mo...@diespamdie.unsw.edu.au
>>I had a Year 11 (ie: students about 16 years old) Visual Art
>>teacher criticise me for using the word "subdermal": she didn't
>>know what it meant, and thought I'd made it up...
>
> And isn't there a wonderfully malicious pleasure in displaying the
> dictionary entry for the word in question? <vbeg>
Well, that's certainly one way of getting under her skin...
--
Martin DeMello/zem
Lee S. Billings
You might need a medical dictionary. OTOH, you could confound the teacher even
more by substituting "subcutaneous"!
si...@hotblack.gweep.net
: Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in message
: Institutions with responsibility for large numbers of young
:> minds can't possibly deal with each of them as individuals, no matter
:> how hard they try. Not with the limited resources we give them to do
:> their jobs.
:>
:> "I wonder if part of the problem here is that we expect too *much* from
:> our schools?"
: I dunno. Kids spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in school. Why are
: they wasting so much time? Can't the teacher squeeze in a few minutes
: to teach them how to add two fractions?
"Just as a data point, I was taught how to add fractions in public school.
I was also taught how to analyze literature, write computer programs, play
the clarinet, speak Spanish, dissect a cat, diagram a sentence, interact
both with age-peers and adults, how to understand geometry and trigonometry,
how to perform a scientific experiment, write a sonnet, and research a
paper.
"I was given a basic education in biology, chemistry, and physics, as well
as math, art, history, and literature. And the school I went to was
supposed to be the 'bad' school in the neighborhood.
: I agree that institutions are not the best place to give kids an
: education - so why are we sending them to institutions?
"It's not so much that the institutions are bad as it is that they can't
work in a vacuum. No matter how hard a teacher works, they can't teach
someone who doesn't want to learn or who gives up learning as soon as they
leave the schoolgrounds. Teachers, students, and parents all have to
work together in order to create a proper education. Expecting the
teachers to do all the work is as ludicrous as expecting the students to
educate themselves with no outside input.
: If I ever have kids, I'm homeschooling them. Homeschoolers get a much
: better education, on average - even if you include in that average the
: evangelical fundie types who don't teach the kids anything at all.
"Personally, I don't feel that I have a wide-based enough education to
teach my child everything that they need. If nothing else, I only have
one viewpoint, and I'd want them to be exposed to more.
"There's also the fact that I need to work, and will need to continue to
work. Not everyone can afford to quit their job for 12 years to stay home
and teach their children. I can promise them several hours of quality
time and help and tutoring, but not eight hours a day of schooling on
top of that...."
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"There is no meaning... only life's dance, ( Rebecca Leanne Schoenberg
and in this place we are the new race ) AIM: LadyKitsune
of Earth being born." Jack Oakley, Fiat Silva ( si...@hotblack.gweep.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larisa
> Larisa <purple...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : Pat Kight <kig...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote in message
>
>
> : Institutions with responsibility for large numbers of young
> :> minds can't possibly deal with each of them as individuals, no matter
> :> how hard they try. Not with the limited resources we give them to do
> :> their jobs.
> :>
> :> "I wonder if part of the problem here is that we expect too *much* from
> :> our schools?"
>
> : I dunno. Kids spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in school. Why are
> : they wasting so much time? Can't the teacher squeeze in a few minutes
> : to teach them how to add two fractions?
>
> "Just as a data point, I was taught how to add fractions in public school.
> I was also taught how to analyze literature, write computer programs, play
> the clarinet, speak Spanish, dissect a cat, diagram a sentence, interact
> both with age-peers and adults, how to understand geometry and trigonometry,
> how to perform a scientific experiment, write a sonnet, and research a
> paper.
>
> "I was given a basic education in biology, chemistry, and physics, as well
> as math, art, history, and literature. And the school I went to was
> supposed to be the 'bad' school in the neighborhood.
You are lucky. I have students that I've tutored for the SAT test -
11th graders - who do not, in fact, know how to add two fractions.
The last kid I've tutored had trouble with the concept of percentages.
And she is not stupid - just badly taught.
And in any case, why are we trading anecdotes? Look at the test
scores. The US is third from the end in mathematics education among
civilized countries - better than South Africa and Cyprus, but worse
than everyone else. And if you look at homeschoolers' test scores,
they perform better, on average, than both public-school and
private-school students. The evidence is out there.
> : I agree that institutions are not the best place to give kids an
> : education - so why are we sending them to institutions?
>
> "It's not so much that the institutions are bad as it is that they can't
> work in a vacuum. No matter how hard a teacher works, they can't teach
> someone who doesn't want to learn or who gives up learning as soon as they
> leave the schoolgrounds. Teachers, students, and parents all have to
> work together in order to create a proper education. Expecting the
> teachers to do all the work is as ludicrous as expecting the students to
> educate themselves with no outside input.
True. That is part of the problem. But isn't part of a teacher's job
to foster the desire to learn?
> : If I ever have kids, I'm homeschooling them. Homeschoolers get a much
> : better education, on average - even if you include in that average the
> : evangelical fundie types who don't teach the kids anything at all.
>
> "Personally, I don't feel that I have a wide-based enough education to
> teach my child everything that they need. If nothing else, I only have
> one viewpoint, and I'd want them to be exposed to more.
That's why most homeschoolers hire tutors to give their children some
different viewpoints. My mother tutors one kid like that.
I know I could give my child a comprehensive education in mathematics
- I've done math tutoring for 5 years now - as well as physics, basic
chemistry, and basic biology. I could also definitely teach the kid
Russian. For the rest, I'll hire tutors.
> "There's also the fact that I need to work, and will need to continue to
> work. Not everyone can afford to quit their job for 12 years to stay home
> and teach their children. I can promise them several hours of quality
> time and help and tutoring, but not eight hours a day of schooling on
> top of that...."
That is a problem. I'm hoping that I can find some other
homeschooling families to trade lessons with, when the time comes for
me to reproduce. But the schools have failed in this country. They
no longer provide a good education; and I don't want my (at this
point, entirely hypothetical) child to be caught up in that.
Larisa
Joyce Melton
> And if you look at homeschoolers' test scores,
>they perform better, on average, than both public-school and
>private-school students. The evidence is out there.
The evidence of what?
I've found one study that says homeschooled kids do better than the
national average for public-schools and the national averages for
Catholic schools. This study used only one test for evaluation. The
report of the test mentions that previous testing using multiple tests
came to the exact opposite conclusion.
Do you have other, more solid references? Doing a quick survey on the
net I find lots of sites where homeschool advocates are trying to
defend homeschooling from the claim that it shortchanges a lot of the
kids on their academic opportunities.
For the right child and the right family at the right moment,
homeschooling is probably the best thing for that child and that
family at that time. But, by its very nature, homeschooling is not
something that everyone can do.
Think about it this way, it would be pretty terrible if the people who
chose to do homeschooling *couldn't* do better than the public
schools.
Even so, going back to your statement above; that the averages of
homeschooled kids, a pre-selected group, might score higher than the
averages of public-school and/or private schools would not prove much
of anything. A short class in how to select samples for testing would
be necessary to show why not.
Joyce
M Blaze Miskulin
> I dunno. Kids spend 6 hours a day, 5 days a week in school. Why are
> they wasting so much time? Can't the teacher squeeze in a few minutes
> to teach them how to add two fractions?
>
> I agree that institutions are not the best place to give kids an
> education - so why are we sending them to institutions?
Squeezing in "a few minutes" isn't that easy. And teaching fractions?
That's a big leap in the learning process. That "few minutes" turns
into hours, because you have to be able to answer questions, deal
one-on-one with several students, repeat the process a few times so that
it sticks in their memory, and be interesting enough to keep the
attention of a room full of students while competing with the class
clown or discussions about whether Jimmy likes Susie or Vanessa better.
You say that you've tutored, so you must know that teaching and learning
don't move at the same pace. But have you ever taught a full class? You
don't mention it, so I'm assuming not. I have taught. I've taught as
a substitute both daily and long-term for the last 3 years. It's hard.
I took every opportunity to bring other subjects into what I was
teaching, but you can't force a student to be interested. If they don't
want to learn fractions, they won't. If you move too fast for them,
they'll drop off and decide not to learn, if you move to slow for them,
they'll get bored and wander off elsewhere, perhaps missing vital parts
of the lessons.
As a tutor, you have students who want to learn. As a teacher, you get
the whole spectrum.
and...
> But isn't part of a teacher's job
> to foster the desire to learn?
Considering that by the time a student reaches school--even
kindergarden--the most important years for the development of attitude
have already passed, it's very difficult. It has to start with the
parents. Period. By the time I got them, in middle and high school, it
could be a lost cause. Students who are extremely intelligent, but
don't know *now* to learn, and reject all efforts to get them interested
as "trying to force them to do something".
I managed to find quite a few students who would listen to what I had to
say, but that's because I wasn't the regular teacher. I was "that cool
substitute with the tatoos." That gave me an edge.
On top of that, there is the lack of support that teacher get. Parents
resent teachers or try to make them babysitters. The public bitches and
moans about property taxes and continually raise the cry of "I don't
have any kids in school, why should *I* pay for someone else's
education." Adminstrators are more concerned about appearances and
politics than about the education of students. The state (at least here
in Wisconsin) has a *law* that says schools *can't* spend more money on
education even if they want to. And teachers who are engaging, and
treat students like reasoning human beings, tend to get attacked by the
system and the parents for "corrupting" the children.
and...
> The US is third from the end in mathematics education among
> civilized countries - better than South Africa and Cyprus,
> but worse than everyone else. And if you look at
> homeschoolers' test scores, they perform better, on average,
> than both public-school and private-school students.
> The evidence is out there.
Then why are so many students coming from overseas to study in our
universities? Why are so many of the top software companies in the US?
Why is the US a leader in bio-tech?
The scores of test measure nothing more than how well a student answers
questions on that test. Yes, we could drill our students on the basics
and progressions of mathematics. But that's not the way this country
works. It's not in our principals. America is a country founded by
people who couldn't live by the rules. And while 200 years have past,
that's still the way we are. Creativity, imagination, wild--even
aberrant--thinking is what this country is about. We come up with the
ideas.
I'm *not* saying that a solid education in the princpals and
complexities of math, language, science, art, history, etc. are
unimportant. Just the opposite. They are essential, and we should do
everything we can to see to it that we do the best we can to teach
them. However, they are not the entirety. And tests don't measure the
factors that are even more important.
Some examples:
I have a friend who was in the "dummies" classes (whatever the PC name
is for them now.) He can't do math, he had a hard time with english,
etc. Yet he is one of the most intelligent people I know. He reads
novels and builds worlds from them. Give him a machine, and he'll take
it apart, find out what it does, and put it back together--with
improvements. He can tell by sound and feel more about a machine than I
can with all the math and CAD drawings I could get my hands on. A test
would list him as "low intelligence". Reality shows him to be much
greater than that.
A student I've taught, and a member of a good friend's English classes,
does horribly on tests and in class. Yet he writes
sonnets--*sonnets!*--that are the match of Shakespeare. And he's not
even graduated from high school yet.
Another student is in the "slow classes" at the local high school. Yet
she knows more about the workings of the real world than most of the
teachers I know. She's an excellent artist and an eloquent speaker
(when she chooses to be).]
I could go on and on, naming student after student. All of these
students would fare very poorly on tests. And yet, what they have to
offer is of great value. We *have* taught them well. Despite all that
we, as educators, have going against us. And they have as much
chance--perhaps more-- of going out into the world and succeeding as do
those students who get a high score on a standardized test.
Secondly-- how, exactly do you rate a test given to students in South
Africa, to one given to students in Germany, to one given to students in
the US? Are the tests the same? Are they presented the same? are they
given under the same circumstances? Are they tabulated the same?
I have little faith in standardized tests, even less in the
statisticians who compile the data, and virtually none in the people who
interpret and quote the results.
jhetley
news:34e2d56d.01082...@posting.google.com...
>
> That is a problem. I'm hoping that I can find some other
> homeschooling families to trade lessons with, when the time comes for
> me to reproduce. But the schools have failed in this country. They
> no longer provide a good education; and I don't want my (at this
> point, entirely hypothetical) child to be caught up in that.
>
I dunno.
I went through a back-assward school system, redneck Georgia
pre-desegregation, and mangaged to score SATs of 800 verbal and 735 math.
This was in the 1960s. (Yes, I _am_ that old.) Both of my sons have scored
SATs in the same range, in the 1990s, in a backwoods hick Yankee village
with delusions of grandeur. One of them has a learning disability that
affects output, not input, and flunked out of college. The other has damn
near straight As in college and a merit scholarship from Stephen King for
the top percentage of his class.
I think what you get out of school depends on what you put into it. If the
student wants to learn, even in the shitty US schools, he/she/it will learn.
There are a great number of people in this country who think that there is,
indeed, a free lunch (x-thread.) There is not, in school or elsewhere.
Maybe "society" has failed, rather than the schools?
--
Jim
THE SUMMER COUNTRY, a novel of dark contemporary fantasy
Coming in 2002 from Ace Science Fiction & Fantasy
Joyce Melton
>I could go on and on,
:)
Well, you did, and very, very well, I might add. :)
Joyce
Alexis Siefert
>Date: 8/25/01 3:41 AM Alaskan Daylight Time
>Message-id: <up3fotg2a9o7j1oa3...@4ax.com>
My thoughts exactly. Thank you.
Alexis.
Abner Mintz
> I think what you get out of school depends on what you put into it. If the
> student wants to learn, even in the shitty US schools, he/she/it will learn.
> There are a great number of people in this country who think that there is,
> indeed, a free lunch (x-thread.) There is not, in school or elsewhere.
> Maybe "society" has failed, rather than the schools?
"Well said - though I somewhat disagree that the public schools are
'shitty'. As you said, what you get out of it is what you put into
it. Those of my students who want to learn get a *lot* out of my
chemistry classes. Those of my students who don't want to learn
- don't. The main problem for a teacher, really, is getting the
students to want to learn. This is why my students, on their
end-of-semester reviews of me, keep writing that I am so enthusiastic
that I made them really want to learn. I figure that if I really
let my love of chemistry shine in the class, it'll drag them in
too. Happily, it works for quite a few of the students. Alas, not
for all. As a matter of fact, it was a public school chemistry
teacher who first lit a fire under me and got me into chemistry."
"The main problem for the public schools is that it's really hard
to find enough teachers who have the enthusiasm to light a fire
under the students - and even harder to keep the teachers from
getting quenched by hordes of students who hate learning. Our
society doesn't value learning *or* teaching much - all it values
is income potential. Unless a parent takes some effort to encourage
their kids to want to learn, those kids usually come to classes
about as inert as can be."
"I think that the main advantage that private schools have over public
ones is that the parents who put their kids in private schools are
generally the ones that *care* about their kids learning, and
encourage that - and so their kids are likely to do better. It's
a selection effect, where the private schools get, not the smartest
kids, but the most encouraged kids. That in and of itself would
explain most of the better results."
"Note that I am not saying that their aren't poor public schools
or poor public school teachers (I had a really bad 4th grade
teacher who killed my enthusiasm for years - she was fired, but
the damage was already done). I just don't think that most
public schools are bad. Certainly I had quite a few good teachers
at the public schools I went to, and the resources were available
(and use was encouraged!) for anyone who wanted to learn."
Lee S. Billings
abner...@earthlink.net says...
> Our society doesn't value learning *or* teaching much - all it values
> is income potential.
And sports. We used to value education much more than we do now, and there's a
decent case to be made that the shift started with Kennedy's Presidential
Council on Physical Fitness. The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again;
Kennedy probably never considered that academics and athletics would come into
open *competition* for school money as a result of what he did.
>"I think that the main advantage that private schools have over public
> ones is that the parents who put their kids in private schools are
> generally the ones that *care* about their kids learning, and
> encourage that - and so their kids are likely to do better. It's
> a selection effect, where the private schools get, not the smartest
> kids, but the most encouraged kids. That in and of itself would
> explain most of the better results."
Yep. But it's difficult to explain to people looking at those test scores that
they're seeing the results of a self-selected population when a lot of them
don't "get" statistics in the first place...
> Note that I am not saying that their aren't poor public schools
> or poor public school teachers (I had a really bad 4th grade
> teacher who killed my enthusiasm for years - she was fired, but
> the damage was already done).
Nor are they limited to public schools. My 3rd-grade teacher was an absolute
nightmare, and that was in a pricey private school! (I heard, long after the
fact, that she was teaching there because she couldn't *get* hired by the very
good public school system in the area. Tells you something...)
Neil
>abner...@earthlink.net says...
>
>> Our society doesn't value learning *or* teaching much - all it values
>> is income potential.
>
>And sports. We used to value education much more than we do now, and there's
>a
>decent case to be made that the shift started with Kennedy's Presidential
>Council on Physical Fitness. The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes
>again;
>Kennedy probably never considered that academics and athletics would come
>into
>open *competition* for school money as a result of what he did.
It's not a new situation, though.
"Academe, n. An ancient school where morality and philosophy were taught.
Academy, n. (from Academe). A modern school where football is taught."
- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_,
(I think this was in the part published 1906)
<snip>
>> Note that I am not saying that their aren't poor public schools
>> or poor public school teachers (I had a really bad 4th grade
>> teacher who killed my enthusiasm for years - she was fired, but
>> the damage was already done).
>
>Nor are they limited to public schools. My 3rd-grade teacher was an absolute
>nightmare, and that was in a pricey private school! (I heard, long after the
>fact, that she was teaching there because she couldn't *get* hired by the
>very
>good public school system in the area. Tells you something...)
I went to a private school, through junior high. Of the three
principals we had while I was there, one allowed his own
kids to be violent bullies, and another was a racist. (There
were only three black kids there, all in one family; I remember
him saying they didn't "belong in this community".) The
teachers they hired were about what you would expect.
Of course, the public high school I attended after that was
worse in every possible respect...
:-P
Luria
(Remove <ical> to E-Mail)
_____
Take the utmost trouble to find the right thing to say,
and then say it with the utmost levity.
- George Bernard Shaw
jhetley
"Abner Mintz" <abner...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1eyoc9o.78s05elwjc5sN%abner...@earthlink.net...
> jhetley <jhe...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> > I think what you get out of school depends on what you put into it. If
the
> > student wants to learn, even in the shitty US schools, he/she/it will
learn.
> > There are a great number of people in this country who think that there
is,
> > indeed, a free lunch (x-thread.) There is not, in school or elsewhere.
>
> > Maybe "society" has failed, rather than the schools?
>
> "Well said - though I somewhat disagree that the public schools are
> 'shitty'.
Urk. Sorry. There were supposed to be quotation marks around "shitty." I
plead caffeine deprivation while posting.
den...@nolunch.zipcon.net
<brb...@winterborne-ss.com> held forth, saying:
Larisa:
>> And if you look at
>> homeschoolers' test scores, they perform better, on average,
>> than both public-school and private-school students.
This proves that those kids whose parents are involved in the
educational process *because they choose to be* are likely to learn
better than those whose parents aren't so involved and interested.
Really doesn't say much about the quality of home-school vs group
schools.
But how many families (a) *can* home-school? (b) both *can* and *want
to*? or (c) *can* and would be *willing* to? (a) eliminates just
about all families with 2 working parents, not to mention
single/divorced parents. Etc.
I suspect also the demographics of home-school families would compare
*very* favorably with the average. Anyone know anyone who does
home-schooling? Are any of those families living at subsistence
level, or even close to it?
--
-denny-
curmudgeonly editor
Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.
--"The Rules of Chocolate"
Arri London
I tutor a fair number of home-schooled students (and have
been for some time).
By my standards the families are all rather well-off. They
would have to be to pay my fees! The parents are uniformly
extremely well-educated and are professionals. They
home-school the children for a variety of reasons: the
violence in local schools, the fact that the kids were too
far behind/ahead in normal schools, the ability to pull the
children out of school for vacations any time of the year,
the 'snob' appeal etc. Around here there are also parents
who home-school for religious reasons, but I don't tutor
their children.
The quality of home-schooling depends heavily on the
education and commitment of the parents. Any public school
teacher can tell stories of home-schooled kids put back into
the classroom who are well behind their peers. It varies
greatly.
jhetley
news:qdpgotom3dpe5f485...@4ax.com...
>
> I suspect also the demographics of home-school families would compare
> *very* favorably with the average. Anyone know anyone who does
> home-schooling? Are any of those families living at subsistence
> level, or even close to it?
The home-schooling demographics in Maine would be skewed. A fair number of
such families _are_ subsistence level, being people who live unreasonable
distances from even rural schools. Deep woods people are often poor people.
Those, plus the religious families who want to protect their children from
secular values, probably constitute the majority. I suspect that the
religious families also score below average on economic scales, but have no
data to support that.
Home schooling permission is easy around here. We tried it for one year,
with our older son. The school system was even willing to provide their
standard texts. No, we couldn't do any better with his writing problem than
the school system did.
Leonard Erickson
<nyekul...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"One of the tasks that I perform as a Senior Technical Writer is to be a
>Grammar and Spelling Nazi in my office. I am fortunate that the writings of
>my supervisor and his supervisors are spelled correctly and well-designed,
>but now and then I must correct awkward phrases and poor spelling.
>
>"To communicate effectively is one of the most difficult acts for a human.
>Merely because we have the tools to do so does not mean we do it well.
>
>"One of the methods by which one improves one's writing is feedback.
>Without feedback, any writer assumes he or she is making the point clearly,
>with an adequate style. In fact, the Air Force's writing manual, The Tongue
>and Quill, makes that an essential part of the writing process.
>
>"I wonder how many times these children have had a teacher with spelling and
>writing skills examine their papers and correct poor spelling? In a crowded
>classroom and with a teacher without strong motivation to do so, it may be a
>rare event to have a graded paper.
Well, I still recall the time on one of my infrequent visits back home
(sometime in the early 80s) when my mom showed me an assignment sheet
that my kid brother (7 years younger) had brought home from *high
school* English.
I think it had spelling errors, and I'm positive it had some sever
grammatical errors. And this was something the *teacher* had written!
Leonard Erickson (aka Nemo) kal...@krypton.rain.com
"No, I will _not_ move your planet... What do you want to move it _for_?
It's fine right where it is!"
-- Dairine Callahan, Wizard (no relation)
Abner Mintz
>> 'shitty'.
jhetley <jhe...@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
> Urk. Sorry. There were supposed to be quotation marks around "shitty." I
> plead caffeine deprivation while posting.
"No problem - thanks again for an insightful post." :)
Lee S. Billings
kal...@krypton.rain.com says...
>Well, I still recall the time on one of my infrequent visits back home
>(sometime in the early 80s) when my mom showed me an assignment sheet
>that my kid brother (7 years younger) had brought home from *high
>school* English.
>
>I think it had spelling errors, and I'm positive it had some severe
>grammatical errors. And this was something the *teacher* had written!
Egad. My former father-in-law (a college English teacher) used to red-pencil
things like that and send them back to the teacher for re-typing (with a GRADE
on them indicating what they'd have gotten in *his* class), which I thought was
a marvelous idea.
jhetley
news:9mc1es$9ql$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
> In article <0tsiot0ckijfqeunt...@4ax.com>,
> kal...@krypton.rain.com says...
>
> >Well, I still recall the time on one of my infrequent visits back home
> >(sometime in the early 80s) when my mom showed me an assignment sheet
> >that my kid brother (7 years younger) had brought home from *high
> >school* English.
> >
> >I think it had spelling errors, and I'm positive it had some severe
> >grammatical errors. And this was something the *teacher* had written!
>
> Egad. My former father-in-law (a college English teacher) used to
red-pencil
> things like that and send them back to the teacher for re-typing (with a
GRADE
> on them indicating what they'd have gotten in *his* class), which I
thought was
> a marvelous idea.
Oh, I've definately seen stuff from school that had _frightening_ errors in
spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I handed one over to the school
principal (was working on an addition to the school at the time, so this had
nothing to do with either of our sons) and he had the good grace to look
embarassed as hell.
Leonard Erickson
Billings) wrote:
>In article <0tsiot0ckijfqeunt...@4ax.com>,
>kal...@krypton.rain.com says...
>
>>Well, I still recall the time on one of my infrequent visits back home
>>(sometime in the early 80s) when my mom showed me an assignment sheet
>>that my kid brother (7 years younger) had brought home from *high
>>school* English.
>>
>>I think it had spelling errors, and I'm positive it had some severe
>>grammatical errors. And this was something the *teacher* had written!
>
>Egad. My former father-in-law (a college English teacher) used to red-pencil
>things like that and send them back to the teacher for re-typing (with a GRADE
>on them indicating what they'd have gotten in *his* class), which I thought was
>a marvelous idea.
My mom was a retired teacher. She complained to the teacher *and*
(later) to the school. With no result.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 02:12 AM, si...@hotblack.gweep.net said:
>"Personally, I don't feel that I have a wide-based enough education
>to teach my child everything that they need.
You probably don't. But you probably do have a wider eductation than
the teachers to whom you will be entrusting your children in public
school. And you can probably fill in the gaps.
I'm not saying that you should home school your children; not when you
can't afford the time and the economic loss. But don't sell yourself
short.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
Atid/2
Team OS/2
Team PL/I
Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
abusive E-mail.
I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
domain acm dot org user shmuel to contact me. Do not reply to
spam...@library.lspace.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
Larisa
I have not taught a full class; I have watched my mother teach on
numerous occasions. Yes, it is hard. But somehow, my mother managed
to pull her class together (20 kids), make sure that all of them
understood the subject, make sure that all of them wanted to learn,
and teach them arithmetic and pre-algebra in only 5 years - not the 7
or 8 most American schools take. Most of her students, after
graduating from elementary school, went on into 9th grade math after
6th grade.
> and...
>
> > But isn't part of a teacher's job
> > to foster the desire to learn?
>
> Considering that by the time a student reaches school--even
> kindergarden--the most important years for the development of attitude
> have already passed, it's very difficult. It has to start with the
> parents. Period. By the time I got them, in middle and high school, it
> could be a lost cause. Students who are extremely intelligent, but
> don't know *now* to learn, and reject all efforts to get them interested
> as "trying to force them to do something".
I don't know. Again, my mother managed to do this. Most of her
students were totally brainwashed into loving math - to the point of
refusing to go on field trips for other classes because they'd miss
math class. I don't know what she did. Personal magnetism? Perhaps.
I know that when I sat in on her classes (I got to do so frequently,
because I worked at the same school as a choir accompanist), I could
see the effect.
> > The US is third from the end in mathematics education among
> > civilized countries - better than South Africa and Cyprus,
> > but worse than everyone else. And if you look at
> > homeschoolers' test scores, they perform better, on average,
> > than both public-school and private-school students.
> > The evidence is out there.
>
> Then why are so many students coming from overseas to study in our
> universities? Why are so many of the top software companies in the US?
> Why is the US a leader in bio-tech?
Because university education in the US is pretty good. Much better
than most other countries. But American high school students are so
badly prepared for college that most cannot benefit from the wonderful
post-secondary education that US colleges offer. The electrical
engineering department at Stanford University (my alma mater) was 70%
non-US citizens. 70%.
> The scores of test measure nothing more than how well a student answers
> questions on that test. Yes, we could drill our students on the basics
> and progressions of mathematics. But that's not the way this country
> works. It's not in our principals. America is a country founded by
> people who couldn't live by the rules. And while 200 years have past,
> that's still the way we are. Creativity, imagination, wild--even
> aberrant--thinking is what this country is about. We come up with the
> ideas.
We do? I would say that it is the immigrants who do so. Silicon
Valley (where I live) would get nowhere without the Asian immigrants
and people on work visas and such. I don't have the exact statistics,
but 2/3 of our office are from India, if you want anecdotal evidence.
It is rather a pity that the children who grow up in this great
country are so ill-educated that they are unable to take advantage of
the great opportunities it offers.
Oh, of course. And some of the "doing horribly" can be explained by
horrible schooling. I have had many students who were considered
"dumb", but were anything but. Once they had a proper explanation and
answers for their questions, they did just fine.
> Secondly-- how, exactly do you rate a test given to students in South
> Africa, to one given to students in Germany, to one given to students in
> the US? Are the tests the same? Are they presented the same? are they
> given under the same circumstances? Are they tabulated the same?
>
> I have little faith in standardized tests, even less in the
> statisticians who compile the data, and virtually none in the people who
> interpret and quote the results.
As you wish. Math is the same everywhere. If little Hans adds 2 and
3 and gets 5, and little Jacques adds 2 and 3 and gets 5, whereas
little Johnny adds 2 and 3 and gets something else, I would worry
about the results.
Larisa
Larisa
My mother tutors one homeschooled child. Her (single) mother is not
very well-educated, and rather poor. This is a blue-collar family.
I'm not sure why the child is being homeschooled - not for religious
reasons, I think. Definitely not for the snob appeal.
The kind of clientele you get as a tutor depends on how much you
charge. My mother's rates are moderate, so she gets a lot of poor
families who want to give their children an education. OTOH, I charge
more, and thus my students are more affluent. Incidentally, I charge
less for my piano lessons, and get a correspondingly poorer clientele.
If you're charging a lot, I'm not surprised you only get the "snob
appeal" sort of people.
Larisa
John Beaty
stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) wrote:
> In article <0tsiot0ckijfqeunt...@4ax.com>,
> kal...@krypton.rain.com says...
>
> >Well, I still recall the time on one of my infrequent visits back home
> >(sometime in the early 80s) when my mom showed me an assignment sheet
> >that my kid brother (7 years younger) had brought home from *high
> >school* English.
> >
> >I think it had spelling errors, and I'm positive it had some severe
> >grammatical errors. And this was something the *teacher* had written!
>
> Egad. My former father-in-law (a college English teacher) used to red-pencil
> things like that and send them back to the teacher for re-typing (with a
> GRADE
> on them indicating what they'd have gotten in *his* class), which I thought
> was
> a marvelous idea.
>
> Celine
Yogi grimaces:
"BTDT: shit hit the fan and splattered over my then 4thgrade (8-9 year
old) daughter. Seems that the principal and teacher thought they were
"above" being graded.
"After I threatened to take it to a public schoold board meeting, they
decided that discretion was the better part of harassing my child.
"Yogi, after all, has at least 2 possible interpretations. One of them
is ursine, and it doesn't take much to bring out my protective side..."
Yogi, still bristling when he remembers his daughter coming home in
tears....
si...@hotblack.gweep.net
: In <99861933...@hotblack.gweep.net>, on 08/24/2001
: at 02:12 AM, si...@hotblack.gweep.net said:
:>"Personally, I don't feel that I have a wide-based enough education
:>to teach my child everything that they need.
: You probably don't. But you probably do have a wider eductation than
: the teachers to whom you will be entrusting your children in public
: school. And you can probably fill in the gaps.
"Fill in the gaps with what? Cat hair?
"And I don't have a more broad-based education than most teachers; if
anything I have a much more focused education. I've been going down one
path for the past 22 years. I know next to nothing about teaching music
or art or history or geography....
: I'm not saying that you should home school your children; not when you
: can't afford the time and the economic loss. But don't sell yourself
: short.
"I appreciate the thought, I just don't see where I'm selling myself short.
I'm not a very good teacher, I don't have a broad enough knowledge base to
function as the entire teaching staff of a high school curriculum... I'm not
even really that smart. I'd rather know that my children were getting a more
thorough education than i can offer."
Leonard Erickson
Billings) wrote:
>In article <9lq7nm$r30$1...@tomahawk.unsw.edu.au>, c.mo...@diespamdie.unsw.edu.au
>says...
>>
>>In article <141b3d17.01081...@posting.google.com>,
>>daras...@yahoo.com says...
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>After all, skills do vary. I still recall having
>>>to correct my fourth grade teacher's mistake in
>>>marking me off on a sentence containing the word
>>>"fiend" because she had taken it as a "friend"
>>>spelled incorrectly. This despite the context
>>>of the sentence making it quite clear that
>>>friend would be highly inappropriate.
>>
>>I had a Year 11 (ie: students about 16 years old) Visual Art
>>teacher criticise me for using the word "subdermal": she didn't
>>know what it meant, and thought I'd made it up...
>
>And isn't there a wonderfully malicious pleasure in displaying the dictionary
>entry for the word in question? <vbeg>
During a science lesson in 6th grade, I corrected the teacher for saying
that sodium was a gas. I had to dig out the dictionary to prove it. And
even then she tried to save face by arguing that the sodium had to be a
gas when it reacted with chlorine to form salt... <sigh>
Lee S. Billings
kal...@krypton.rain.com says...
>During a science lesson in 6th grade, I corrected the teacher for saying
>that sodium was a gas. I had to dig out the dictionary to prove it. And
>even then she tried to save face by arguing that the sodium had to be a
>gas when it reacted with chlorine to form salt... <sigh>
Well, it would be a gas on the Sun...
Celine (remembering a friend, a teacher who believed that salt was made in
factories, and a little experiment with some bromine...)
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 11:25 PM, si...@hotblack.gweep.net said:
>"Fill in the gaps with what? Cat hair?
Reading. Others have successfully taught classes just one step ahead
of their students. And "I don't know, let's look that up." can be a
very educational answer.
>I know next to nothing about teaching music
>or art or history or geography....
I haven't seen any objective studies that their training makes them
better teachers. If you know something about Music, Art, History and
Geography, then that's more relevant than specialized courses in
teaching them.
>I'd rather know that my children were getting a more
>thorough education than i can offer."
Most of us would. But it's not clear that the public schools will give
them that education.
Whatever you decide, good luck.
si...@hotblack.gweep.net
: at 11:25 PM, si...@hotblack.gweep.net said:
:>"Fill in the gaps with what? Cat hair?
: Reading. Others have successfully taught classes just one step ahead
: of their students. And "I don't know, let's look that up." can be a
: very educational answer.
"If other people can teach that way, more power to them. I'm not smart
enough to do that sort of thing on the fly. And having to look everything
up as I teach it would make me next to useless as a teacher - I might as
well just lock the kid in a room with an encyclopedia and tell them to
do it themselves.
:>I know next to nothing about teaching music
:>or art or history or geography....
: I haven't seen any objective studies that their training makes them
: better teachers. If you know something about Music, Art, History and
: Geography, then that's more relevant than specialized courses in
: teaching them.
"Are you suggesting that someone with no knowledge and skill in a given
area is equally as valid as someone with knowledge, skill, and experience
in that same area? That doesn't make sense....
:>I'd rather know that my children were getting a more
:>thorough education than i can offer."
: Most of us would. But it's not clear that the public schools will give
: them that education.
"In my experience, the public schools that my sister and I attended *did*
give a thorough, broad-based, useful education. From everything I've seen,
the education that a student recieves depends on the quality of both
the school and the child's experiences and encouragement at home. I can
offer plenty of the latter, at least."
: Whatever you decide, good luck.
"Thank you - and can I get you a drink as a thank you for discussing
this? It's interesting to see alternate viewpoints."
"John ...@oemcomputer.foo.bar
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article <99930436...@hotblack.gweep.net>,
si...@hotblack.gweep.net wrote:
>"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" <spam...@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:
...
>: Reading. Others have successfully taught classes just one step ahead
>: of their students. And "I don't know, let's look that up." can be a
>: very educational answer.
>"If other people can teach that way, more power to them. I'm not smart
>enough to do that sort of thing on the fly. And having to look everything
>up as I teach it would make me next to useless as a teacher - I might as
>well just lock the kid in a room with an encyclopedia and tell them to
>do it themselves.
I suspect that almost nobody is broad enough to do this in
every field, especially if you have a child who has strong
talents in a direction neither of his parents share. Both
my parents are math-phobic, but I *love* math, and
understanding and applying various bits of mathematics is a
big part of what I do for a living. If they'd tried to
homeschool me, I don't know where I'd have learned anything;
I was past them by the time I was ten or twelve. (Oddly, my
father has a double-first-cousin who's a mathematician by
training. Meeting her was a big shock for me, as she was the
first member of that side of my family I'd met who
understood why I liked math.) If my son has an interest in
math, I can probably teach him way more than any grade
school or high school is likely to. But if his great love
is musical performance, or art history, I'm probably the
wrong guy for the job.
>:>I know next to nothing about teaching music
>:>or art or history or geography....
>
>: I haven't seen any objective studies that their training makes them
>: better teachers. If you know something about Music, Art, History and
>: Geography, then that's more relevant than specialized courses in
>: teaching them.
>
>"Are you suggesting that someone with no knowledge and skill in a given
>area is equally as valid as someone with knowledge, skill, and experience
>in that same area? That doesn't make sense....
I read his comment as refering to education classes,
specifically. (It's not clear how much time it makes sense
to spend training teachers in education, as opposed to the
fields they're going to study.) Though I suspect a lot of
this is irrelevant for teaching your own kids; teaching one
or two kids at a time is a very different thing than
teaching a classroom full of kids, and some of the training
you'd get as a teacher would be about handling the
administrative tasks of running a big classroom, writing
lesson plans, etc.
Clearly, if you don't know anything about geography, and
don't have any interest or talent in that direction, you're
going to have a hard time teaching anyone anything about it.
And lots of reference books aren't going to help that much,
anymore than my parents could have taught me calculus from a
good set of reference books.
>:>I'd rather know that my children were getting a more
>:>thorough education than i can offer."
>
>: Most of us would. But it's not clear that the public schools will give
>: them that education.
>
>"In my experience, the public schools that my sister and I attended *did*
>give a thorough, broad-based, useful education. From everything I've seen,
>the education that a student recieves depends on the quality of both
>the school and the child's experiences and encouragement at home. I can
>offer plenty of the latter, at least."
Yep. It seems to me that homeschooling is a little like
baking your own bread or growing your own food--some people
have the talent and interest to do it well, and it's great
that they can do it, but it's not ever going to make sense
for most people to try to do it.
...
>"There is no meaning... only life's dance, ( Rebecca Leanne Schoenberg
--John Kelsey
k.e.l.s.e.y.(dot).j.(at).i.x.(dot).n.e.t.c.o.m.(dot).c.o.m
PGP: 5D91 6F57 2646 83F9 6D7F 9C87 886D 88AF
``So long ago, when we were taught, that for whatever
kind of problem you've got, you just put the right formula
in, a solution for every fool....''
--Indigo Girls, ``Least Complicated''
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 6.5.1 Int.
iQCVAwUBO5CgQkHx57Ag8goBAQFYcwQA00RR7OON9x13WtYPIlbWQWXMENX1pAOa
QDhUmdcW+7j6ebj4XwXnQPJthRkWEmLIbFDySgDwnIZTFpfqJIJybv66iJZ5UmZO
F5JLc3vukf/62+UXZjKG8YccrK7fniexI1Yb/IaknEpU30ELrFnkzfFyFJPjAr42
iSZzNbkvA20=
=38EH
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 6.5.1 Int.
iQCVAwUBO5CgZEHx57Ag8goBAQFFRQQAuvYdEC2SGqDnyZXZOcp7MRwLzvfL4gxO
0JfcRJRO+VSTq4bZ/qVQyEeK5ro+vcTMSjcd5HWP5AjlCXkWTeOHJZCF3WhktiGj
uhE2D+HAsV9ue33wnq5HdzS3UCpGoTaXKG7TXrhOUNRJ8KPnHOyKWESxS6H6+/RO
YX7YhJS5GsA=
=CYQb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 09:46 AM, "John Kelsey"@oemcomputer.foo.bar () said:
>Both
>my parents are math-phobic, but I *love* math, and
>understanding and applying various bits of mathematics is a big part
>of what I do for a living. If they'd tried to homeschool me, I don't
>know where I'd have learned anything; I was past them by the time I
>was ten or twelve. (
I had a similar situation. Fortunately, My Algebra teacher allowed me
to read a Calculus text during class time, and in High School I was
able to audit classes at the local university. The time that I spent
in HS Mathematics classes was wasted; I already knew the material.
>I read his comment as refering to education classes,
>specifically.
Exactly.
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
at 12:28 AM, si...@hotblack.gweep.net said:
>"Are you suggesting that someone with no knowledge and skill in a
>given area is equally as valid as someone with knowledge, skill, and
>experience in that same area?
No, I'm suggesting that someone with some knowledge in the area will
do better than someone with a course in pedagogy but no knowledge of
the subject to be taught. There are too many teachers in the public
schools that don't know the subjects that they are asked to teach.
>"In my experience, the public schools that my sister and I attended
>*did* give a thorough, broad-based, useful education.
There are certainly schools like that, and I hope that you are able to
get your children into one.
>"Thank you - and can I get you a drink as a thank you for
>discussing this?
Thank you. I'd love a Rusty Nail.