Loyalty and the Marines
Don Paul
i know a number of other ex Marines frequent the Place...
My thang is Loyalty... with both a big and a little L.
It is the cornerstone to Relationship Marketing - the loyalty the consumer
has to the brand etc.
And I was trying to crack a few examples of extreme loyalty... and of
course, through various posts here, it is apparent that somewhere, somehow,
in the course of US Marine training and service, an intense loyalty is built
for the brand (The Marine Corps).
My question is "How do they do it"?
Is it the re-telling of the tales? The "Not on my watch"? Is it through
pain? "Give me 20". Is it through breaking the spirit and replacing it with
something stronger? There's more to this than basic military training...
and I need to know how it works.
How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of independent
thought) with such a passion for the brand?
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
Take the Marines as a brand (a soap powder if you wish) and translate what
happens to the individual into marketing-speak.
How, over time, a deep and unshakeable trust is developed in what the brand
provides and what it stands for .
And sustained.
This is the kicker. It's the sustained loyalty that is of paramount
interest.
If I can understand this, I might be able to evolve some better theories on
Brand Loyalty that go beyond your frequent flier miles..
Oh, please e mail you thoughts so's I can collect when I get back from
murdering Bill Longley in London
--
DonPaul is d...@1-2-1.co.za
Oscar Tango 121
Relationship Marketers
(021) 462 2173
083 300 1776
The Trinker
>How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of
independent
>thought) with such a passion for the brand?
>
>This is the kicker. It's the sustained loyalty that is of
paramount
>interest.
>
>If I can understand this, I might be able to evolve some better
theories on
>Brand Loyalty that go beyond your frequent flier miles..
Umm...these are, IMO, two different questions.
One is, "how can I build Brand Loyalty".
The other is, "Why do the Marines inspire such loyalty?"
I'll take my whack at an outsider's view of the second, and
then get back to the first.
http://www.usmc.mil/wwwusmc.nsf/Hymn
This is the beginning of the Marine Hymn.
"From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli
We fight our country's battles in the air on land and sea.
First to fight for right and freedom
and to keep our honor clean
We are proud to claim the title of
UNITED STATES MARINE"
And this is the end...
"Here's health to you and to our Corps which we are proud to
serve.
In many a strife we've fought for life,
and never lost our nerve.
If the Army and the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes
They will find the streets are guarded by
THE UNITED STATES MARINES"
Every Marine I have ever encountered, especially those
who live up to the legend, believes those words with
a fervor that I have rarely witnessed for anything else.
Now, how do you inspire Brand Loyalty in a product, on
a commercial level? Quality. Service. Image.
Timelessness. Consistency.
How do you lose it? Failing to keep up with the times
and maintaining the quality/service/image. Going too
far into faddishness in an attempt to keep up with the
times. Skimping on service in an attempt to expand
rapidly, or because the brand has lost sight of its
image and goal. Skimping on quality in an attempt to
gain more market share with lower prices. Arrogance
and forgetting to see who's coming up behind, and
ignoring innovaiton in favor of "we've always done it
this way..."
>Oh, please e mail you thoughts so's I can collect when I get
back from
>murdering Bill Longley in London
Well now...that's *premeditated* !
The Trinker
The proper de-spammed address is
(kat at vincent dash tanaka dot com).
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Don Paul
The Trinker <katNO...@strigil.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:03b6b443...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com...
> "Don Paul" <d...@1-2-1.co.za> wrote:
> >How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of
> independent
> >thought) with such a passion for the brand?
> >And sustained.
> Umm...these are, IMO, two different questions.
>
> One is, "how can I build Brand Loyalty".
>
> The other is, "Why do the Marines inspire such loyalty?"
Not precisely ...(Thank you for the quick considered response, by the way)
If I bring the two together I get to "How does the Marine Corps/brand
inspire/build such intense loyalty among its members/consumers"?
> I'll take my whack at an outsider's view of the second, and
> then get back to the first.
>
> http://www.usmc.mil/wwwusmc.nsf/Hymn
>
> Every Marine I have ever encountered, especially those
> who live up to the legend, believes those words with
> a fervor that I have rarely witnessed for anything else.
>
I agree... from 10 000 miles away, even I noticed; that's what caused me to
pose the question.
But it doesn't answer the "Why?"
In marketing terms, we could say that "frequent exposure to a catchy jingle
is the solution to brand building"... but I know this is facile (and I know
you never intended me to interpret it this way).
The hymn (in marketing speak) is a great example of product endorsement by
satisfied consumers (the best kind of advertising around).
But what did the Corps do/say/provide that convinced these people that they
were indeed the very best?
>
> Now, how do you inspire Brand Loyalty in a product, on
> a commercial level? Quality. Service. Image.
> Timelessness. Consistency.
>
> How do you lose it? Failing to keep up with the times
> and maintaining the quality/service/image. Going too
> far into faddishness in an attempt to keep up with the
> times. Skimping on service in an attempt to expand
> rapidly, or because the brand has lost sight of its
> image and goal. Skimping on quality in an attempt to
> gain more market share with lower prices. Arrogance
> and forgetting to see who's coming up behind, and
> ignoring innovaiton in favor of "we've always done it
> this way..."
Quite right.
This is pretty cutting edge on our current understanding (a marked
improvement on the Better Moustrap).
My search is for the next step... going beyond what is "ho hum - I'll buy it
again" loyal (with a little L) into the realms of positive fanaticism
when I get
> back from
> >murdering Bill Longley in London
>
> Well now...that's *premeditated* !
As in,... "Cor...I could murder a pint.... Bill, you're paying"...I'm
calling in my British BOYC's which will be repaid on my home turf.
Don
Bill Gawne
Don, all, just wanted to let you know I've seen this and I'll be working
on an answer for you sometime later today. Things to do right now...
In the meantime, here's a thought to hold you over:
The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-2
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@abs.net>
Astronomer at Large - Retired Master Sergeant USMCR - Nothing I
post represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne
Don Paul
>
> Don, all, just wanted to let you know I've seen this and I'll be working
> on an answer for you sometime later today. Things to do right now...
>
Thanks
> In the meantime, here's a thought to hold you over:
>
> The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
> its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
> demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-
You have no idea how difficult a concept this is to express on paper.
I feel like I'm on the Edge of a Bigger Idea and I want to see it to some
sort of conclusion.
Remember that it is an idea in it's infancy. I haven't worked out who the
"customer" is just yet.
Is it the Marine?
Or is it the US Government?
Or simply "The People of the United States"?
I must also differentiate between a Brand Loyal Customer (let's say..The
Marine) , the Satisfied Consumer (The People), The Producer/Marketer (The
Marine Corps) and The End User (The US Government)
But all of that is twaddle until I understand the methodologies that are
used to imbue this entrenched loyalty to the Corps and those who serve in
it.
For example (I'm thinking as I write)
What is the role of the Master Seargeant in Boot Camp?
Who decides and impresses the "can do" attitude?
What combination of events, actions, circumstances, words, songs, writings,
films, games, (tools) etc makes normal men stand taller, feel prouder, be
more vocal in ther support for a cause?
The more I think about this, the closer I get to "religious fervor"... not
fundamentalist... but a deep seated, stoutly anchored a) self belief b)
consensus in a cause...
But the thing... that mystery to me who hasn't been there...is how it is
evoked.
We know the results...I'm seeking the cause.
Heavens... this has become Important to me...
Thanks again Bill. I hope it might trigger something beneficial in your own
head..
Cheers (and if I don't get a chance...Happy Birthday)
Don
Lynn Allen
> If I bring the two together I get to "How does the Marine Corps/brand
> inspire/build such intense loyalty among its members/consumers"?
For one thing, I don't see Marines precisely as "consumers." They are
producers...we as beneficiaries of their service are actually the
consumers.
Yes, you could argue they are consumers in the sense that they buy into
the Marine culture. But loyalty in this sense is not to some commodity
that anyone with money can purchase, it is instead to an ideal of
behavior and a dedication to purposes higher than oneself. These
purposes manages to combine concepts of service to country, preservation
of liberty for the society, and at least in my perception, a large dose
of co-dependence upon and service to one's fellow Marines.
What kind of commodity can inspire such loyalty and the combination of
concepts of higher calling and co-fraternity? No physical commodity I
can think of. Religions can. Membership in other armed forces,
membership in exclusive associations, such as the Masons, or (forgive
me, Bill & other Marines) certain kinds of rabid fandom for musical
groups. ;)
It's not so difficult to understand why Marines love their service.
Look at the parameters for being a Marine. Not everyone can become one.
(or at least that's the perception) One must be judged superior by
several parameters to even be allowed to enlist. So you have the
initial rush of good feeling at being permitted to join an elite group.
All armed forces in the US, at least, have the feeling that THEIR
particular force is somehow "better" than the others. As an outside
observer I can make snide remarks about this being an artifact of large
groups of (mostly) men competing for the same resources and having their
usual pissing contests. ;) I also think this may be a necessary
component of the building of resolve that the possibility of giving
one's life is a good thing necessary for the functioning of the military
in wartime. I have no doubt Alexander's infantry thought they were
better than the nancy-pantsers in his cavalry. ;) This perception is
particularly strong with regard to the Marines. Marines KNOW their
service is the best, brightest, most untarnished, toughest, etc. All the
other services say it's not true, but privately suspect it is. ;) So
there is the reinforcement of belonging to the "best" service.
Marine training and service IS tough. Sticking it out means one is
worthy of the initial judgement, and gives a feeling of accomplishment.
Build a person's self-esteem through achievement, and they are yours for
life.
There is an idiom here in the US..."send in the Marines!" It's used to
mean that a situation has deteriorated to the point that only the
strongest response will suffice to resolve it successfully. Marines are
perceived as being the ones who will do whatever it takes, whether that
is through application of technology, guile, or in the last resort,
physical force.
Marines are loyal to each other and to their service. Here is a group
which has filtered its members by criteria they each respect. I can't
speak expertly about all the techniques the military uses to foster the
feeling of loyalty to others who belong. The only similar feelings I
experience are those of loyalty to my family. Patriotism is a faint
second to that. Techniques such as shared deprivations and shared
physical challenges, the demonstration of physical dependency on the
group for survival, and yes, indoctrination in the culture of the
Marines are all very effective, especially when you consider most of the
indoctrinees are young people away from home for the first time. Each
and every Marine is presumed until proven otherwise to adhere to all the
precepts of the Marines..when was the last time you were in a large
group of strangers and could think "I don't know these people
personally, but they've all proved by their behavior they believe what I
believe, and will act as I act. I don't know that person over there,
but I know that in mortal circumstances, he and I would behave as
brothers." To some people such powerful group support is very very
attractive, and worth the commitment on their part to belong.
So before this gets any longer, I'll sum up. You have exclusivity...a
person chooses the Marines, but the Marines must choose the person as
well. You have perceptions of high status and extreme competence as
compared to similar organizations. You have performance challenges and
the requirement of commitment to remain a member of the group. You have
the Marines-as-family, a sense of belonging and support among
like-minded people. And you have service to country, a not
inconsiderable factor, much as some people think patriotism in the
highest sense is a dead issue.
Unless you can make your soap powder into all that, I'd give up. I
think, though perhaps I've not considered it well enough, that brand
loyalty may be an entirely different kind of thing than loyalty to home,
family, Armed Service or country. Not points on a spectrum, but apples
and oranges.
But then that's just my opinion. :) Perhaps it's a good thing I didn't
use my minor in advertising after all.
Lymaree
Bill Gawne
Earlier, I posted a quote from Fleet Marine Force Manual 1-1:
> > The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
> > its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
> > demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-1
Don Paul:
> You have no idea how difficult a concept this is to express on paper.
The concept stated above, in Al Grey's timeless words? Or the concept
you (Don Paul) are trying to articulate?
> I feel like I'm on the Edge of a Bigger Idea and I want to see it to some
> sort of conclusion.
Oh, I think you *are* on the edge of something profound. The things that
make us Marines what we are, they are bigger and grander than most.
> Remember that it is an idea in it's infancy. I haven't worked out who the
> "customer" is just yet.
> Is it the Marine?
To the extent that the Corps has to convince each of us that we stand to
gain by our becoming Marines, yes.
> Or is it the US Government?
Certainly the US govt is the agency which funds our activities. Without
the US government, the means to maintain and sustain the Corps as a
forward deployed force in readiness would not exist. So we must
demonstrate whenever we are called on that those funds have been spent
wisely. That the force in readiness *is* ready, and that Marines will
go wherever we're needed to perform whatever missions the President and
the Congress require of us.
> Or simply "The People of the United States"?
You don't have one without the other. While some will argue that
"government of the people, by the people, and for the people" is a
naive notion, it still remains a strong ideal among the people of
this country. The government commits Marines to action in the name
of the people, and woe betide the president who sends troops to an
unpopular war.
> I must also differentiate between a Brand Loyal Customer (let's say..The
> Marine) , the Satisfied Consumer (The People), The Producer/Marketer (The
> Marine Corps) and The End User (The US Government)
>
> But all of that is twaddle until I understand the methodologies that are
> used to imbue this entrenched loyalty to the Corps and those who serve in
> it.
>
> For example (I'm thinking as I write)
> What is the role of the Master Seargeant in Boot Camp?
Almost none. The most senior drill instructors are Gunnery Sergeants,
one rank below me. Each recruit training battalion does have one
Chief Drill Instructor who is a Master Sergeant, and who has served
as a Drill Instructor in the past. The CDI assists the battalion
commander in matters pertaining to the training and assignment of
drill instructors.
> Who decides and impresses the "can do" attitude?
Everybody. Or at least many Marines in all ranks. It's not just
something that comes from the top down. Marine NCO's excel as much
because their troops believe in them as anything else. I might be
able to bullshit a Lieutenant, but I know I can't bullshit my troops.
They have a knack for seeing right through the crap and knowing if
I'm being square with them or not.
All Marines know at least a little of the history of the Corps.
We know about other Marines who have gone out and done excellent
things under difficult circumstances, and when our time comes we
can draw on that knowledge and feel a connection across the
generations of Marines who've worn the uniform and claimed the
title before us.
Tell you what, Don. Let me recommend two books. Maybe they'll give
you the insight you're looking for.
_US Marine Corps Story_ by J. Robert Moskin
_Semper Fidelis_ by Al Millet
If you can't get them there, we can work out a deal and I'll ship
them to you.
> Cheers (and if I don't get a chance...Happy Birthday)
Happy Birthday to you too, Don. Have a great time in England.
ARCmage
valued.
The Marines are a good example. From the first talk you have with a
recruiter onward, they teach you to feel proud. You are shown how
important, and how special the Marines are. The Marines want their people
to feel like they are valued, and they treat them as something valuable.
Another example comes from the regular customers at any given establisment.
Take a bar for example. The regulars get special treatment, even if only in
tiny ways. The bartender learns their names, their favorite drinks, and
what to say on the phone when the wife calls looking for her husband. Quite
often, regulars get the occasional free drink. It's all part of making the
people feel like they are valued.
For a given brand name, getting across the idea that they truely value their
customers is hard. A brand name had real trouble doing something special
for each of their customers, so that they will feel valued.
One company that has done a good job on this is Hewlett-Packard. What they
did is set up the best tech support division in the industry. The tech
support business has boomed in recent years, and one major reason is because
of how successful HP has been doing it. People will pay more for HP
products because they know that HP values their customers enough to provide
support.
There are other ways of invoking pride. If you have a product that is known
to be The Best, people will pay more for it, because they have pride in
owning The Best. Even when there really isn't any difference. The ARCmage
has watched people spend extra money to have Altec-Lancing speakers for
their computer. They are supposed to be The Best. They don't sound any
different though.
If you can make the customer feel that they are valued, or make them feel
proud to have bought *this* brand, then you will get loyalty.
--
Sin(The ARCmage)
------------------------------
1
Bill Gawne
The Trinker:
> Umm...these are, IMO, two different questions.
Yes, I thought so too.
> One is, "how can I build Brand Loyalty".
>
> The other is, "Why do the Marines inspire such loyalty?"
>
> I'll take my whack at an outsider's view of the second, and
> then get back to the first.
>
> http://www.usmc.mil/wwwusmc.nsf/Hymn
>
> This is the beginning of the Marine Hymn.
"Mike, whatever she's drinking, my tab." Bill says. "Thanks" he
adds, quietly, squeezing her shoulder.
> "From the Halls of Montezuma
Where a force of Marines, detatched for duty ashore with the Army,
made a frontal assault against the Mexican stronghold of
Chapultapec castle.
> to the shores of Tripoli
Where Marine Lieutenant Presley Neville O'Bannon, with a Sergeant and
eight Privates and 200 bedouins, seized the fortress of the Barbary
Pirates after a march overland from Egypt. O'Bannon's victory was
the cornerstone of the US naval campaign against the Barbary pirates.
> We fight our country's battles in the air on land and sea.
I could list them all, but it's a long list. The names of the
battles wrap twice around the base of the Marine Corps Memorial
at Arlington. There's plenty of room for more...
> First to fight
First on the scene, to do whatever is called for. Be it fighting
or rescue or whatever else the mission requires.
While the roles and missions of the Armed Forces have changed over
the past half century, and these days it is possible that some other
service will draw the mission to go somewhere first, we Marines still
are the ones who are out there, deployed around the globe, and in
position to go wherever we're needed at a moment's notice.
> for right and freedom
We hope it's for the right, and for freedom. As one of our most colorful
Commandants said during his retirement speech, too often it's been to
protect American business interests with little regard for 'right'. But
still we go, and leave it to our friends and families back home to hold
Congress and the President accountable for how and where we are deployed.
> and to keep our honor clean
> We are proud to claim the title of
> UNITED STATES MARINE"
Claiming the title...
It's not just something we do in bars on liberty.
I'm reminded of a story one of my Sergeants told me. He was loading into
a landing vehicle before the invasion of Grenada, and his platoon
sergeant looked around after checking each Marine's gear. He said,
"It's time to go claim the title." He didn't have to say what title
he meant. They all knew.
When we iron that USMC decal onto our pockets, when we say we are
Marines, we dare to claim membership in the company of those who
have claimed the title before, buying in blood a reputation which
has come to represent the finest in military capability and soldierly
virtue. When I identify myself as a Marine, I claim the title in
company with Dan Daly, and John Bassilone, and Smedley D. Butler,
and John Quick, and Luke Quinn, and all the others who have ever
walked in the fields of fire and faced violent death as US Marines.
> Every Marine I have ever encountered, especially those
> who live up to the legend, believes those words with
> a fervor that I have rarely witnessed for anything else.
Thank you again, Trinker. We must be doing something right.
> Now, how do you inspire Brand Loyalty in a product, on
> a commercial level? Quality. Service. Image.
> Timelessness. Consistency.
That looks about right to me too.
> How do you lose it? Failing to keep up with the times
> and maintaining the quality/service/image. Going too
> far into faddishness in an attempt to keep up with the
> times. Skimping on service in an attempt to expand
> rapidly, or because the brand has lost sight of its
> image and goal. Skimping on quality in an attempt to
> gain more market share with lower prices. Arrogance
> and forgetting to see who's coming up behind, and
> ignoring innovaiton in favor of "we've always done it
> this way..."
All errors that the Corps, from time to time, has fallen into.
Fortunately, we seem able to overcome things and move forward
after the falls. Perhaps because we know that history, and
we know that real men have given their all as Marines in the
past.
Bill Gawne
Going back to Don Paul's original post now...
> I was trying to crack a few examples of extreme loyalty... and of
> course, through various posts here, it is apparent that somewhere, somehow,
> in the course of US Marine training and service, an intense loyalty is built
> for the brand (The Marine Corps).
>
> My question is "How do they do it"?
Lymaree already answered this to a great extent. It's a day in and day
out process. One that defies the human limitations of the people in the
Corps, and builds on a tradition of excellence.
> Is it the re-telling of the tales?
That is a good part of it. Every Marine is introduced to Marine Corps
history early in boot camp. This includes history that was never covered
in High School. Wars and actions unremembered in the mainstream.
> The "Not on my watch"?
That too. Each of us takes upon himself a strong sense of responsibility
when we go on duty. As Marines, failure is not an option.
> Is it through pain? "Give me 20".
Only sorta. Though I suppose there are Marines who actually enjoy the
pain, most of us prefer to stay in good enough shape that daily training
doesn't hurt.
There *is* something about the tradition of regular exercise which
contributes to the bond. The process of hardening the body and
strengthening it to withstand the rigors and challenges of privation.
> Is it through breaking the spirit and replacing it with
> something stronger?
Nobody ever broke this spirit. I think the 'breaking' business is
an ill-understood term. What we do, in training, is get the recruit
to understand that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
A Marine rifle platoon is more than 33 individuals out there with
rifles and ammo. It's a fighting unit capable of closing with and
destroying an opposing force, even against overwhelming numerical
superiority.
> There's more to this than basic military training...
Why yes, there is.
> and I need to know how it works.
I recommended a couple of books elsewhere. They're a good place to
start. Another book that came to mind as I considered these questions
is _Helmet For My Pillow_, an account of an enlisted Marine in the 2nd
world war. In one section, describing their first battle with a
Japanese force on Guadalcanal, he waxes philosophical after the end
of the battle. "How could they ever think to defeat us?" he asks,
in horrified wonder as he remembers the dead bodies. "We were the US
Marines."
Now that might seem like the height of arrogance, but understand that
he felt that the truth of the matter ought to have been self evident.
> How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of independent
> thought) with such a passion for the brand?
Show them that the claims are for real.
> Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I think so. But as Lymaree already said, I don't think it'll sell
soap powder for you.
> Take the Marines as a brand (a soap powder if you wish) and translate what
> happens to the individual into marketing-speak.
Sorry Don. We're not a consumer product that anyone can buy. The price
would be far too high, and it's only paid in a coin that most have no wish
to ever know.
> How, over time, a deep and unshakeable trust is developed in what the brand
> provides and what it stands for .
I know that I can rely on my fellow Marines to accomplish any mission they
are given to the best of their abilities. I know that in hopeless cases
like Wake Island, where the Marine garrison was cut off, they will still
continue to fight using all means possible. I know that if I find myself
in a situation like those Marines at Wake Island, that someday - perhaps
long after I'm dead and nothing remains of me but bleached bones on the
beach - other Marines will come to make things right. That eventually,
Marine forces will prevail.
> And sustained.
See above.
> This is the kicker. It's the sustained loyalty that is of paramount
> interest.
Reliability, dependability, faith, and trust. Acceptance of an ideal
that embodies excellence.
Let's try this: If Dan Daly (twice won the Medal of Honor) can see me
from wherever he is now, I imagine he'd disagree with most of my
political, economic, and social opinions. But I think he'd recognize
me as a pretty good Marine NCO. I hope that some leader of Marines in
a future time, looking back at the words I wrote, would feel the same
kind of kinship with me that I feel with Dan Daly and Manilla John
Bassilone - even though we might differ in many attitudes, I think our
core values would be similar.
The things that contribute to that are quality training and trust in
our fellow Marines. We know that we're taught warfighting skills by
people who understand war. We also know that those who come after
us expect us to know our business, and that responsibility lays
heavy on each of us.
> If I can understand this, I might be able to evolve some better theories on
> Brand Loyalty that go beyond your frequent flier miles..
*smile* I think the metaphor is kind of limited, Don. But please, do
use what you can from this.
Back when I was a 'Career Planner' I had the duty of interviewing every
Marine who was eligible and recommended for reenlistment. There was a
whole laundry list of incentives I was supposed to present to them.
Now, I would do that. But before I started, and again at the end of
the interview, I'd make a point of telling them that the *ONLY* good
reason to stay in was because they wanted to continue to be a Marine.
If a product is good, then all your advertising needs to do is make
people aware of the product. The good product will then continue to
sell itself.
Consider a couple of examples. In the US, I know of two brands of
coffee which I've never seen a single ad for, but which manage to
hold their market share year in and year out. Cafe du Monde is a blend
of coffee and chickory from Louisiana which is in demand in every
place I've ever lived - yet I've never seen a single advertisement for
it. Likewise, the Italian-American d'Oro brand of espresso coffee.
It's always there in the grocery store, and it has a devoted base of
consumers. But you never see it advertised. That's about as loyal
a consumer base as I can imagine.
Bill Gawne
Hecate:
> I think it's probably the same thing that makes a Commando a Commando,
> and SAS man, an SAS man, and an SBS man an SBS man.
The tall gray bunny down in the lounge looks up from his chian wine.
"Quite right, domina." he says, with a lapine smile.
Primoptio Marcus Floppyears, XV Maniple, Special Bunny Service of the
Lapine Republic of Nova Roma, nods to his friend the Marine. "Semper
Fidelis, Bill. Buy you a drink?"
--
This vignette from the ongoing Callahan's - Man From UNCLE paistiche
has been brought to you by Bill Gawne and the Callahan's Association
for the preservation of Esprit d'Corps.
Bill Gawne
Craig Motbey:
> Hmmn...one particular bit that I don't think anyone else has
> mentioned, is the issue of "identification". Think about it: Bill
> isn't "a guy who was in the Marines", he's a guy who IS a Marine.
Yes. Quite definitely. Albeit a retired Marine. But still one who
is ready to return to active service at a moment's notice if called
back. (And yes folks, it certainly can happen. During the Gulf War
I served with 17 recalled retired Marines.)
> He's "the Marine at the end of the bar", not "the guy at the end of
> the bar who was in the Marines".
It's interesting how that phrase has become so much a part of how
I identify here in a.c. I used it first in the second or third post
I ever made to a.c., and have been using it ever since. At the time
I first used it, I was not yet retired, and often posted from a
military address.
(Sometimes I think I type those words as automatically as John
Barnstead types "Pernicious the Musquodoboit Harbour Farm Cat...")
> His sense of identity has been altered such that "Marine-ness" is a
> major part of how he defines himself.
Yep.
> He has a great incentive to
> continue believing that the Marines are a great thing, 'cos his own
> identity is tied up with them. If the Marines as a whole are
> dishonoured or disparaged, so is he.
The flip side of that coin is that if I see the Corps heading in a
direction I think ill advised, I'm not averse to writing to the
Commandant and/or the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps to tell
them what I think. Nor am I the only retired Marine who does this.
> I don't think that this is true to the same extent in the other
> services; while a regular infantryman may be very proud of his
> service, I don't think he'd identify as "Army" to the same extent
> that your typical Marine identifies themself as a Marine.
This touches on something I thought about earlier. While other
services have elite units, for example the Green Berets and the
SEALs, those units have a separate identity from their services.
The US Marine Corps makes a point of downplaying such things, and
focuses instead on identifying the entire Corps as an elite bunch.
Yes, we have units like Force Recon, which are indeed some
Marine's Marines. But they don't wear special uniforms or have
distinctive propeller beanies or anything like that. We all have
USMC in black letters on our breast pockets, with a silhouette of
an eagle, globe, and anchor above it. We all got to put that on
our uniform when we graduated from boot camp. We all prize it.
> None of this means that the Marines _aren't_ a great and honourable
> thing; just that members of the Marine corps have a greater than
> usual incentive to maintain the reputation of the corps.
Yes, we do.
> The question I don't know the answer to, however, is _how_ the
> Marines create this sense of identity amongst their members. Bill?
I think I've explained it as well as I can in the other posts today
Craig. If after reading this and them you still have questions, I'll
be happy to keep trying. Let me know, OK?
Bill Gawne
> ... there is a difference in emphasis between Marine and army
> training. Perhaps it is the smaller size of the Corps that makes it
> possible, but I noticed that there is an emphasis on being a _Marine_,
> first and foremost. Not a pilot or a mortarman or a mechanic, but a
> Marine pilot, a Marine mortarman, a Marine mechanic.
Yes, that's true. "Every Marine is an Infantryman first" is a mantra
of Marine Corps training. Even pilots serve tours of duty as Air
Liaison Officers with Infantry units. We all train with rifles, learning
to shoot accurately. We all learn small unit tactics. We all are
imbued with a belief that if we must, like the cooks and bakers at
the Chosin Reservoir who 'fought like Vikings' then we too can shoulder
our rifles, emplace our machineguns and mortars, and lay down the final
protective fires.
As a tracked vehicle mechanic, I was also a machinegunner. I had a
toolbox, and my day to day duties involved fixing stuff. But I also
had an M-60 in the armory that I had to keep clean, and take out to
the range a couple of times a year for practice firing. No, I didn't
train with it anywhere near as often as a machinegunner in an infantry
battalion would have, but I knew enough to be able to use it.
(Impressed the hell out of an Army instructor at Ft. Hood too, on the
Army M-60 qualification course.)
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
can do with, to, or impose upon Johnny Walker customers. (I just had a
vision of "Johnny Walker Camp for Adults." Aahhrrgg!! Make it stop! (-:
)
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/
http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa/
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
jhe...@my-deja.com
Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
<massive snippage>
> I know that I can rely on my fellow Marines to accomplish any mission
they
> are given to the best of their abilities. I know that in hopeless
cases
> like Wake Island, where the Marine garrison was cut off, they will
still
> continue to fight using all means possible. I know that if I find
myself
> in a situation like those Marines at Wake Island, that someday -
perhaps
> long after I'm dead and nothing remains of me but bleached bones on
the
> beach - other Marines will come to make things right. That
eventually,
> Marine forces will prevail.
One thing I think you left out, Sarge, although it is implied in that
paragraph. From the perspective of an allied branch (allegedly, at
least), there is a difference in emphasis between Marine and army
training. Perhaps it is the smaller size of the Corps that makes it
possible, but I noticed that there is an emphasis on being a _Marine_,
first and foremost. Not a pilot or a mortarman or a mechanic, but a
Marine pilot, a Marine mortarman, a Marine mechanic.
--
Jim
"I am but mad north-northwest: when the wind is southerly I know a
hawk from a handsaw."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Hecate
<complete snip of interesting discussion>
I think it's probably the same thing that makes a Commando a Commando,
and SAS man, an SAS man, and an SBS man an SBS man. I alos think it';s
probably intangible and can't be used in advertising (thank goodness
<g>)
--
Hecate
SapphicWench
Hec...@bigfoot.com
icq 59088833
P&E
Craig Motbey
>How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of
>independent thought) with such a passion for the brand?
>And sustained.
>
>This is the kicker. It's the sustained loyalty that is of
>paramount interest.
>
>If I can understand this, I might be able to evolve some better
>theories on Brand Loyalty that go beyond your frequent flier miles..
<OK: note here that I'm using Bill as an example only because he's
the only Marine I know, and this is all wild speculation; no offence
intended to anybody, and if any such offence is taken, it's probably
because I didn't explain myself clearly enough>
Hmmn...one particular bit that I don't think anyone else has
mentioned, is the issue of "identification". Think about it: Bill
isn't "a guy who was in the Marines", he's a guy who IS a Marine.
He's "the Marine at the end of the bar", not "the guy at the end of
the bar who was in the Marines".
His sense of identity has been altered such that "Marine-ness" is a
major part of how he defines himself. He has a great incentive to
continue believing that the Marines are a great thing, 'cos his own
identity is tied up with them. If the Marines as a whole are
dishonoured or disparaged, so is he.
I don't think that this is true to the same extent in the other
services; while a regular infantryman may be very proud of his
service, I don't think he'd identify as "Army" to the same extent
that your typical Marine identifies themself as a Marine.
None of this means that the Marines _aren't_ a great and honourable
thing; just that members of the Marine corps have a greater than
usual incentive to maintain the reputation of the corps.
The question I don't know the answer to, however, is _how_ the
Marines create this sense of identity amongst their members. Bill?
--
Craig Motbey
John Palmer
>
>And I was trying to crack a few examples of extreme loyalty... and of
>course, through various posts here, it is apparent that somewhere, somehow,
>in the course of US Marine training and service, an intense loyalty is built
>for the brand (The Marine Corps).
>
>My question is "How do they do it"?
I think the thing is "they have something that you have to want
for intangible reasons, and they make you work harder'n hell for it."
That 'something' is a perfect product, BTW, because it's not physical.
If I made you work harder'n hell for something I could give you,
if the something I gave you didn't meet your expectations, you'd hate
it. But a Marine who wants to be a Marine, when he becomes a Marine,
having "Marine-hood" means having something that can be perfect to
him, because it can mean exactly what he wants it to mean (within
certain rational areas; he can't "want" it to mean a chance to be
lazy, for example :-) )
>How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of independent
>thought) with such a passion for the brand?
Ah. . . that's the key. You don't. They have to want it first.
>How, over time, a deep and unshakeable trust is developed in what the brand
>provides and what it stands for .
That's why it has to be personal (Or so I bet; any Marines
laughing at my naivete have my permission to tell me I'm full of crap
on this). . . because it's a great shining image in the person's mind
of something that "should be". . . it's a Platonic Ideal, of sorts.
Because it's built in the person's mind, it becomes part of that
person's mind, and they trust it as they've learned to trust
themselves.
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
Once you pull the pin on Mr. Hand Grenade, he is no longer your friend.
rmtodd
> The flip side of that coin is that if I see the Corps heading in a
> direction I think ill advised, I'm not averse to writing to the
> Commandant and/or the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps to tell
> them what I think. Nor am I the only retired Marine who does this.
Interesting. Have the Marine Corps powers-that-be ever altered their
proposals in the face of counter-arguments from you and/or your fellow
ex-Marines?
[...]
> This touches on something I thought about earlier. While other
> services have elite units, for example the Green Berets and the
> SEALs, those units have a separate identity from their services.
> The US Marine Corps makes a point of downplaying such things, and
> focuses instead on identifying the entire Corps as an elite bunch.
> Yes, we have units like Force Recon, which are indeed some
> Marine's Marines. But they don't wear special uniforms or have
> distinctive propeller beanies or anything like that. We all have
And, on the other end of the spectrum, the Marines apparently don't go for
the "less elite" units either. I think it was you who brought up, in one of
the previous "women in the military" discussions here, that whereas in WWII
the Army and the Navy had separate organizational units for women who wanted
to serve (the WACs and the WAVEs), the Marine Corps commandant insisted that
any women who enlisted in the Marines were going to be *Marines*.
Anne E. Ferguson
> "Every Marine is an Infantryman first" is a mantra
> of Marine Corps training. Even pilots serve tours of duty as Air
> Liaison Officers with Infantry units. We all train with rifles, learning
> to shoot accurately. We all learn small unit tactics. We all are
> imbued with a belief that if we must, like the cooks and bakers at
> the Chosin Reservoir who 'fought like Vikings' then we too can shoulder
> our rifles, emplace our machineguns and mortars, and lay down the final
> protective fires.
>
> As a tracked vehicle mechanic, I was also a machinegunner. I had a
> toolbox, and my day to day duties involved fixing stuff. But I also
> had an M-60 in the armory that I had to keep clean, and take out to
> the range a couple of times a year for practice firing. No, I didn't
> train with it anywhere near as often as a machinegunner in an infantry
> battalion would have, but I knew enough to be able to use it.
>
> (Impressed the hell out of an Army instructor at Ft. Hood too, on the
> Army M-60 qualification course.)
>
After he was discharged from the Corps, my dad went to college and
graduate school, married, had three kids, and settled down as a small-town
school teacher. You *had * to pass his class in American Government to
graduate, so most folks in town knew him, including the ones who grew up &
joined the local police force. Mom had a yen for politics, so she ended
up as an alderman (she always said alderperson sounded silly to her -
alderone? let's get real) In a tinytown like ours, each alderbeing took
a turn at the different responsibilities: streets & alleys, water &
drainage, police. Mom ended up doing a turn as the Police Superintendent.
She comes home & says to Pop, "They says we can come town to the shooting
range and have a go - I've never shot a gun in my life... would you like
to?" He says, "Yes" & off they go. The "kids" are amused to have Mr.
Ferguson at the range, but he produces as unexpected FOID card, so they
give him the loan of a rifle.
Dad put 5 in a row through the little dot in the center. One of the
orricers said, "Mr. Ferguson, I didn't know you shot!" Dad said, "I
haven't held a rifle in 26 years."
Rev. Anne
ferg...@prairienet.org
http://www.geckomoon.com/hm/hmmain.html
They think I'm one of Them
Anne E. Ferguson
>
> Dad put 5 in a row through the little dot in the center. One of the
> orricers said, "Mr. Ferguson, I didn't know you shot!" Dad said, "I
> haven't held a rifle in 26 years."
>
Of course, I meant to say "officers"
David C. Kifer
>
> This is prolly aimed at Sgt Bill, but all are welcome in the conversation as
> i know a number of other ex Marines frequent the Place...
Yup, I'm one of them... :-)>
> My thang is Loyalty... with both a big and a little L.
> It is the cornerstone to Relationship Marketing - the loyalty the consumer
> has to the brand etc.
Sheesh! Take part of a day off to celebrate a holiday with family,
and come back to find a long thread already built below this title!
But I'll give it a shot, anyway...
It has to go both ways. When you come up with a brand, or a product,
that demonstrates the same loyalty *to* their customers as they expect
*from* their customers, you may have something. I've never seen such
a thing.
Actually, Loyalty is something between people with something in common,
at the least, an idea, usually a great deal more. What you are after
is an addiction to a product, a thing.
> And I was trying to crack a few examples of extreme loyalty... and of
> course, through various posts here, it is apparent that somewhere, somehow,
> in the course of US Marine training and service, an intense loyalty is built
> for the brand (The Marine Corps).
> My question is "How do they do it"?
224+ years of practice!
> Is it the re-telling of the tales? The "Not on my watch"? Is it through
> pain? "Give me 20". Is it through breaking the spirit and replacing it with
> something stronger? There's more to this than basic military training...
> and I need to know how it works.
All of the above, and a great deal more, and I don't think it's
possible to do the same thing with *product*. See above. More better,
see Bill Gawne's posts! He's said it better...
Good luck, though, with your attempt, Don Paul, you may learn some
very interesting things in the process...
--
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(Et brevis pecunia.) [Et breve spatium.]
Scott H. Perlman
>Don Paul wrote:
>>
>> This is prolly aimed at Sgt Bill, but all are welcome in the conversation as
>> i know a number of other ex Marines frequent the Place...
>
Sorry for the piggy back but I just noticed this.
I've been slapped down for saying ex-Marine. And I think thats a part
of it as well. You can be retired Marine, you can be a dead Marine,
but unless you've been thrown out, you may not be an active Marine, but
you are still a Marine. (Personal choice in changing identification
excepted obviously)
And as David mentioned in the cut text, that works because the core
also still identifies YOU as a Marine.
Think about that implication for commercial brand loyalty. Even if you
are outside the demographic for our product, or no longer need/use it.
You were our customer, therefore you ARE our customer, and we will
listen to you and do what we can for you....
-Scott
--
The first thing to be judged must be the standards of Judgment!
Scott H. per...@pobox.com
Don Paul
Scott H. Perlman <per...@linguist.dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
news:slrn8m5v4d....@linguist.dartmouth.edu...> And as David
mentioned in the cut text, that works because the core
> also still identifies YOU as a Marine.
>
> Think about that implication for commercial brand loyalty. Even if you
> are outside the demographic for our product, or no longer need/use it.
> You were our customer, therefore you ARE our customer, and we will
> listen to you and do what we can for you
This is brilliant!
Don
Jacob Sommer
<blink>
Don, I consider it incredibly basic. And yes, I do work doing
customer support.
Jacob
who of course is an odd duck <totally quackers>
Bill Gawne
> Have the Marine Corps powers-that-be ever altered their
> proposals in the face of counter-arguments from you and/or your fellow
> ex-Marines?
Yes. (nitpick: as Scott already mentioned, we're not ex anything)
> And, on the other end of the spectrum, the Marines apparently don't go for
> the "less elite" units either. I think it was you who brought up, in one of
> the previous "women in the military" discussions here, that whereas in WWII
> the Army and the Navy had separate organizational units for women who wanted
> to serve (the WACs and the WAVEs), the Marine Corps commandant insisted that
> any women who enlisted in the Marines were going to be *Marines*.
Indeed. While MajGen Thomas Holcombe was not as colorful a Commandant
as some others, that one line ("Call them Marines.") insures his place
in history. It says, in three terse words, what we're all about.
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> |
Bill Gawne
John Palmer:
> That 'something' is a perfect product, BTW, because it's not physical.
Good point.
> If I made you work harder'n hell for something I could give you,
> if the something I gave you didn't meet your expectations, you'd hate
> it. But a Marine who wants to be a Marine, when he becomes a Marine,
> having "Marine-hood" means having something that can be perfect to
> him, because it can mean exactly what he wants it to mean (within
> certain rational areas; he can't "want" it to mean a chance to be
> lazy, for example :-) )
And another good point.
> . . . because it's a great shining image in the person's mind
> of something that "should be". . . it's a Platonic Ideal, of sorts.
Yes. Though not just in _one_ mind. It's a shared ideal. Not only do
I hold myself to a standard of what I expect a good Marine Master
Sergeant to be, so do all the other Marines I happen to meet, here
or anywhere.
Posting in a.c., I know that Dave Kifer is over there, reading
what I have to say and holding my words and actions to a different
standard than he holds most patrons. I don't mind that. I even
expect it. (I do the same to him, for that matter.) It's the same
with other Marines who come through here from time to time. For that
matter, it applies to some extent for any patron who is or has been
a member of the Armed Forces. On a more general scale, I expect that
almost any patron will hold me to a somewhat higher standard than
they would J. Random Patron.
> Because it's built in the person's mind, it becomes part of that
> person's mind, and they trust it as they've learned to trust
> themselves.
Yep. Indeed it is. I can be running, and want to stop to walk
because it's hot and I'm tired, and this Master Sergeant looms
up in my mind and tells me "You can make it, don't try to bullshit
me. Keep going." And I know the salty sunovabitch is right.
Hecate
>(Impressed the hell out of an Army instructor at Ft. Hood too, on the
>Army M-60 qualification course.)
I hate to come over all admiring like, but that doesn't surprise me
:-)
Scott H. Perlman
>Don Paul wrote:
>>
>> Scott H. Perlman <per...@linguist.dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
>> > also still identifies YOU as a Marine.
>> >
>> > Think about that implication for commercial brand loyalty. Even if you
>> > are outside the demographic for our product, or no longer need/use it.
>> > You were our customer, therefore you ARE our customer, and we will
>> > listen to you and do what we can for you
>>
>> This is brilliant!
>
><blink>
>
>Don, I consider it incredibly basic. And yes, I do work doing
>customer support.
So do I, (work in Customer Support) (good sigmonster)
But this even goes beyond the customer support mission of people using
the product actively, and the fights we have with Sales&Marketing (S&M)
on features and development. This is saying that someone who is no
longer a customer, they've switched platforms, grown beyond the
requirements of our products etc, STILL gets the same service and
devotion.
At least IMHO a lot of what the Marines have been saying is that the
loyalty From the core extends beyond retirement, and I suspect extends
in certain respects to dependants/family, even beyond death.
That kind of extended commitment is commercially viable in the current
economic climate. Its closer to an "Eastern" economic model, but not
precisely there. Its really a redefinition of the company. To have
that kind of loyalty, profit cannot be your overriding goal. Loyalty
has to be.
Bill has said he has complete confidence that if he/other marines were
trapped, and died that the core WOULD re-liberate the area/avenge them,
and complete their mission. There was not any expressed caveat about
it being financially or politically beneficial to do it, thats just the
way it works.
IE the Core really does live by the motto a lot of companys pay lip
service to: Our people are our most important resource, and we will do
whatever it takes for them.
In that respect loyalty to the core is more like the loyalty of an
Employee, than loyalty of a customer. Which may mean the only way to
have that loyalty in a customer base is to have them also be an
employee/associate base, or at least a signifigant fraction. More
similar to the Japanese Zaibatsu/Keiretsu model.
-Scott
--
The fundamental Truth of Customer Support:
Nuke the site from Orbit.
Its the ONLY way to be sure. || per...@pobox.com
-Ripley
Colin Rosenthal
Don Paul <d...@1-2-1.co.za> wrote:
>
>Scott H. Perlman <per...@linguist.dartmouth.edu> wrote in message
>mentioned in the cut text, that works because the core
>> also still identifies YOU as a Marine.
>>
>> Think about that implication for commercial brand loyalty. Even if you
>> are outside the demographic for our product, or no longer need/use it.
>> You were our customer, therefore you ARE our customer, and we will
>> listen to you and do what we can for you
>
>This is brilliant!
Alternatively, what about a Jewish-identity customer relations model? - If
your mother's a customer you're _born_ a customer and you _stay_ a
customer until the day you die.
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
David G. Bell
d...@1-2-1.co.za "Don Paul" wrote:
> This is prolly aimed at Sgt Bill, but all are welcome in the conversation as
> i know a number of other ex Marines frequent the Place...
>
> My thang is Loyalty... with both a big and a little L.
>
> It is the cornerstone to Relationship Marketing - the loyalty the consumer
> has to the brand etc.
>
> And I was trying to crack a few examples of extreme loyalty... and of
> course, through various posts here, it is apparent that somewhere, somehow,
> in the course of US Marine training and service, an intense loyalty is built
> for the brand (The Marine Corps).
>
> My question is "How do they do it"?
>
> Is it the re-telling of the tales? The "Not on my watch"? Is it through
> pain? "Give me 20". Is it through breaking the spirit and replacing it with
> something stronger? There's more to this than basic military training...
> and I need to know how it works.
>
> How do you imbue intelligent men and women (ie capable of independent
> thought) with such a passion for the brand?
>
> Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I think you're heading in the wrong direction.
This isn't anything like brand loyalty. It's a question of cultural
identity and other such stuff. This is the difference between saying,
"I drink Coke!" and "I am a Marine!". It isn't a relationship with a
product, but the building of a web of interpersonal relationships within
the unit.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Copyright 2000 David G. Bell
David G. Bell
<slrn8m7lho....@linguist.dartmouth.edu>
per...@linguist.dartmouth.edu "Scott H. Perlman" wrote:
> At least IMHO a lot of what the Marines have been saying is that the
> loyalty From the core extends beyond retirement, and I suspect extends
> in certain respects to dependants/family, even beyond death.
I think the retreat from Chosin (sp?) has already been mentioned. It's
relevant here too.
maenad
>If I bring the two together I get to "How does the Marine Corps/brand
>inspire/build such intense loyalty among its members/consumers"?
I haven't read the rest of the responses, but here's my answer (and you're
probably not gonna like it).
By ruthlessly weeding out the unloyal members.
This is not a parallel to marketing soap. It is a parallel, if anything, to
marketing Rolls Royces.
>But what did the Corps do/say/provide that convinced these people that they
>were indeed the very best?
Made it true. :) By ruthless weeding out at several levels and extensive
training of the people they had left. IMO, from what I've seen, being a Marine
is kinda like being an upper-level athlete. There may be a fair number of people
with the *potential* to do it, but only the ones who've actually put in the
blood, sweat and tears get to know that they *are* the best.
maenad
___________ Anna ______________________________ fun is good! ____________
Computers are so naughty and so complex, I could just pinch them.
<Marvin the Martian>
--------------------- maenad <at> execpc <dot> com ----------------------
Craig Motbey
per...@linguist.dartmouth.edu says...
<snip>
>Bill has said he has complete confidence that if he/other marines were
>trapped, and died that the core WOULD re-liberate the area/avenge them,
>and complete their mission. There was not any expressed caveat about
>it being financially or politically beneficial to do it, thats just the
>way it works.
Something I meant to mention before, but forgot: that's remarkably
similar to the way the Roman Legions operated. See Germanicus' campaigns
in Germania Magna to recover the Eagles of the legions lost in the Varian
disaster, near the start of the first century CE...
--
Craig Motbey
Skye
"David G. Bell" wrote:
>
> This isn't anything like brand loyalty. It's a question of cultural
> identity and other such stuff. This is the difference between saying,
> "I drink Coke!" and "I am a Marine!". It isn't a relationship with a
> product, but the building of a web of interpersonal relationships within
> the unit.
I know it is a bit late, but I would like to add something to all of
this discussion. I *know* as a Marine Wife, I can go for help to any
Marine base in the world, and be safe. I know if Bill is called to
active duty and the unthinkable happens, I still will not be alone to
deal with the situation. Something else the Marine Corps is is a
"Family by Choice". No, you aren't going to like everyone, stop and
think about it. Do you like every single person in Callahans?
However, you would help them if they needed it.
Perhaps that is just another part of being a MArine Family.
Skye Gawne, Marine Wife
muse
Lost attribution> don't think he'd identify as "Army" to the same extent
>> that your typical Marine identifies themself as a Marine.
>
>services have elite units, for example the Green Berets and the
>SEALs, those units have a separate identity from their services.
>The US Marine Corps makes a point of downplaying such things, and
>focuses instead on identifying the entire Corps as an elite bunch.
First off, my best friend is ex-Army, and while he doesn't think of himself as
Army, he does think of himself as airbourne. It's something that is a part of
who he is. So yes the Army at least is split, but within the splits you have
groups with a very similar intense loyalty. I've seen this with virtually all
of the military folks I'm friends with. While the Marines don't split the
groups like the other branches do, the other branch still have that intense
loyalty, simply to smaller group.
Also a question/thought, because of the rep of the Marines, both the positive
rep which we spoken of, and the negative one, O wonder if it catches fewer of
the I need to go somewhere else, I need the GI bill, etc.
Muse(Clio)
"The hottest places in hell are reseved for those who, in a time of great moral
crisis, maintain their neutrality." Dante
Remove muse to reply
Buddha Buck
rch...@aol.comClio (muse) wrote:
> Also a question/thought, because of the rep of the Marines, both the
> positive rep which we spoken of, and the negative one, O wonder if it
> catches fewer of the I need to go somewhere else, I need the GI bill,
> etc.
That doesn't always work... My father joined the Marines because a) he
wanted something that would distract from "Dad, I crashed the car", and b)
the Marine recruiter was the only one in the recruiting office that day.
But still...I think advertising has a lot to do with it:
US Army: Ads tend to stress the education and training. Many push the
GI bill. Many stress the teamwork and leadership skills you will learn,
and how they will help you outside of the Army. I may be confusing ads for
the Army Reserve here...
US Navy: Ads stress the adventure of being a sailor. Ads may mention the
teamwork necessary to run a ship. Many pretty pictures of foreign ports
of call. Naval Aviation may be featured prominently. Slogan: "The Navy:
It's not just a job, it's an adventure".
US Air Force: None of the ads have made a strong impression on me. Slogan:
"Aim High: US Air Force"
US Marine Corp: The Malamuke(?) Sword is used as a symbol of perfection,
of honor, etc. Previous ad campaigns have shown the Sword being forged with
a voice-over stressing strengths of character. Current ad campaigns show
a non-uniformed man going through immense trials (imagine a really schlocky
D&D game crossed with Mission Impossible, done in CGI) to reach the prize:
the Sword. As soon as he grabs the Sword, flash-cut to him in Marine dress
uniform, with Sword, at attention. As near as I can recall, no one has ever
been shown holding the Sword who was -not- in full Marine dress uniform.
Traditional Marine Corp recruiting slogan: We're looking for a few good men.
The ads, to me, say "If you want a job for 4 years, with educational
benefits, join the Army/Navy/Air Force. If you are pure of character and
want to challenge yourself to prove that you are worthy of the title of
a 'good man', join the Marines".
The Marines don't get the people who join the military for the benefits
because that isn't what they advertise, isn't what they promise, isn't what
they want.
Just my thoughts.
David C. Kifer
>
[snip ad descriptions]
> The ads, to me, say "If you want a job for 4 years, with educational
> benefits, join the Army/Navy/Air Force. If you are pure of character and
> want to challenge yourself to prove that you are worthy of the title of
> a 'good man', join the Marines".
>
> The Marines don't get the people who join the military for the benefits
> because that isn't what they advertise, isn't what they promise, isn't what
> they want.
>
> Just my thoughts.
And the Services have been running variations on those same themes
as long as I can remember, with the same differences. Which may have
some relationship to the reports I've heard that my Marine Corps is
the only one of the Services that is not having trouble meeting its
annual recruitment quotas, or at least is having less trouble meeting
them, depending on which reports you hear.
David G. Bell
bmb...@14850.com "Buddha Buck" wrote:
> But still...I think advertising has a lot to do with it:
>
> US Army: Ads tend to stress the education and training. Many push the
> GI bill. Many stress the teamwork and leadership skills you will learn,
> and how they will help you outside of the Army. I may be confusing ads for
> the Army Reserve here...
>
> US Navy: Ads stress the adventure of being a sailor. Ads may mention the
> teamwork necessary to run a ship. Many pretty pictures of foreign ports
> of call. Naval Aviation may be featured prominently. Slogan: "The Navy:
> It's not just a job, it's an adventure".
>
> US Air Force: None of the ads have made a strong impression on me. Slogan:
> "Aim High: US Air Force"
>
> US Marine Corp: The Malamuke(?) Sword is used as a symbol of perfection,
> of honor, etc. Previous ad campaigns have shown the Sword being forged with
> a voice-over stressing strengths of character. Current ad campaigns show
> a non-uniformed man going through immense trials (imagine a really schlocky
> D&D game crossed with Mission Impossible, done in CGI) to reach the prize:
> the Sword. As soon as he grabs the Sword, flash-cut to him in Marine dress
> uniform, with Sword, at attention. As near as I can recall, no one has ever
> been shown holding the Sword who was -not- in full Marine dress uniform.
> Traditional Marine Corp recruiting slogan: We're looking for a few good men.
>
> The ads, to me, say "If you want a job for 4 years, with educational
> benefits, join the Army/Navy/Air Force. If you are pure of character and
> want to challenge yourself to prove that you are worthy of the title of
> a 'good man', join the Marines".
>
> The Marines don't get the people who join the military for the benefits
> because that isn't what they advertise, isn't what they promise, isn't what
> they want.
>
> Just my thoughts.
You've got me trying to remember the adverts for the British Armed
Forces, over the last few years. The one which sticks in my mind was
the RAF-centred one, with a fast moving sequence of shots of fast jets,
apparently working in conjunction with a low-flying Hercules, intercut
with such things as radar operators tracking targets, which climaxed
with the sort of air-drop of relief supplies that you sometimes see on
the news. It finished with the slogan, "Because their country needs
you."
That's a deliberate echo of Kitchener in the Great War, but it was the
way it twisted around the whole build-up that's stuck in my mind.
Harry Cameron Andruschak
teamwork necessary to run a ship. Many pretty pictures of foreign ports of
call. Naval Aviation may be featured prominently. Slogan: "The Navy: It's not
just a job, it's an adventure".
Telling nobody's story but my own, I joined the US NAVY at age 19 back in the
year 1963, and my main reason was the training program offered. I went in as
an SRET or maybe it was ETSR. In any case, as a Seaman Recruit who hoped to
become an Electronics Technician. And an Electronics Technician is what I have
been all my working life. 1963-1973: US NAVY. 1973-1986: JPL. 1987-Present:
USPS. I never gave much thought to foreign ports of call or exotic adventures.
This AOL account is used for sending messages ONLY. All e-mail to this address
is blocked to thwart spammers. Use nothingunderkilt@aol,com or write to PO Box
5309, Torrance, CA 90510-5309 or phone 310-835-9202. (But not often at home.)
Bill Longley
>"Don Paul" <d...@1-2-1.co.za> wrote:
>
>>Oh, please e mail you thoughts so's I can collect when I get
>back from
>>murdering Bill Longley in London
>
>Well now...that's *premeditated* !
It's OK, I survived the encounter, as did he.
By the time you read this there should be a whisky-fuelled Don Paul
rampaging around the glens trying to hunt haggis with his new boomerang.
--
Bill Longley
Bill Longley
[Don Paul:]
>> Take the Marines as a brand (a soap powder if you wish) and translate what
>> happens to the individual into marketing-speak.
>
>Sorry Don. We're not a consumer product that anyone can buy. The price
>would be far too high, and it's only paid in a coin that most have no wish
>to ever know.
Don Paul did talk about this thread yesterday at the London Realspace:
although the topic varied wildly (selling to Marines, selling by
Marines, selling a product as "product X is to Y as Marine is to
soldier", et cetera) he's obviously _very_ interested in this idea. I
did suggest he'd get back and find 200 replies - so if anybody wants to
help reach that number, I suggest that they do, as they'll have at least
one voracious reader.
--
Bill Longley
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
More along Don Paul's line of work is the current propensity for
claiming anything black and/or vaguely high tech is "used by US Navy
SEALs." I've seen this line applied to everything from assault rifles
to ball point pens. I'm currently wearing a watch that says "NAVY
SEALS" on its face (that's not why I'm wearing it).
In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/
http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa/
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
David G. Bell
poly...@pacbell.net "The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)" wrote:
> More along Don Paul's line of work is the current propensity for
> claiming anything black and/or vaguely high tech is "used by US Navy
> SEALs." I've seen this line applied to everything from assault rifles
> to ball point pens. I'm currently wearing a watch that says "NAVY
> SEALS" on its face (that's not why I'm wearing it).
>
> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
There's been a recent thread elsegroup about some of the claims made for
the effects of magnets on water supplies.
One documented item of escape and evasion equipment, issued to RAF
aircrew in WW2, is the magetised trouser button used as a compass.
It doesn't seem too difficult to combine the two and create some sort of
magical trouser button, as used by the famous military unit of your
choice, which has certain special effects on the wearer, in consequence
of the magnetic field aligning the haemoglobin (it contains iron) un the
blood, and so improving the blood supply to certain organs.
Bill Gawne
> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
The difference being what I mentioned earlier: The SEALs are a very
small elite unit within the US Navy. We have similar units in the
Marine Corps (Force Reconaissance Company within the SRI Group, for
one example, ANGLICO for another) but we don't play up the 'special'
nature of those units. The Marine Raiders of WW II were every bit
as extreme as today's SEAL teams. But specialty units are subject
to the political whims of the day.
I love it when people try to draw comparisons between SEALs or
Green Berets or Army Airborne Rangers and the Marine Corps.
It means that they are trying to compare a small, elite subgroup
to an entire branch of service. There are what? Something like
800 SEALs on active duty at any one time? Maybe 2500 Green Berets,
and another 10,000 Rangers... While we keep 169,000 Marines on
active duty, and another 40,000 in the Marine Corps Reserve.
It's nice to know that our cooks and bakers deserve to be compared
to their best.
Jaywalke
> The SEALs are a very small elite unit within the US Navy. We
> have similar units in the Marine Corps (Force Reconaissance
> Company
I passed a Jeep on the highway a few days ago with a license
plate frame that read "Marine Force Recon Instructor". I drove
even more politely than usual...
I used to (in my wilder days) have an ex-SEAL drinking buddy who
was a walking mountain. He is tied with a former taekwondo
instructor of mine for the winner of the "Shortest Bar Fight"
title. Both instances consisted of a single punch that moved so
fast you couldn't see it, and a body eventually hitting the floor
for good after ricocheting off various walls and furniture.
Jaywalke
Keen sucks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Bill Gawne
> >Bill has said he has complete confidence that if he/other marines were
> >trapped, and died that the core WOULD re-liberate the area/avenge them,
> >and complete their mission. There was not any expressed caveat about
> >it being financially or politically beneficial to do it, thats just the
> >way it works.
Craig M:
> Something I meant to mention before, but forgot: that's remarkably
> similar to the way the Roman Legions operated. [...]
Imagine that...
Along these lines, it's worth noting that 4th Marines lost their
colors at Corregidor in the Philippines. (They actually burned them
to prevent their capture.) While new colors were provided to the
reconstituted 4th Marine Regiment which was formed around the
cadre of escapees who fought with Fillipino forces against the
Japanese after the official surrender of all US Forces, it is
also noteworthy that 4th Marines regimental headquarters have never
returned to the continental United States since then.
Bill Gawne
Dave Kifer:
> And the Services have been running variations on those same themes
> as long as I can remember, with the same differences. Which may have
> some relationship to the reports I've heard that my Marine Corps [...]
Bill smiles at Dave, and quietly adds, "Semper Fi."
(See Don? That's a big part of it too. It's still *his* Marine
Corps, just as much as it's mine or that of any Marine on active
duty today.)
Bill Gawne
> By the time you read this there should be a whisky-fuelled Don Paul
> rampaging around the glens trying to hunt haggis with his new boomerang.
Now *THAT* is a mental image.
Whew! I can hardly wait for the news. Oh Don? Praytell, how
*did* the hunt go?
Janet Miles
> Along these lines, it's worth noting that 4th Marines lost their
> colors at Corregidor in the Philippines. (They actually burned them
> to prevent their capture.) While new colors were provided to the
> reconstituted 4th Marine Regiment which was formed around the
> cadre of escapees who fought with Fillipino forces against the
> Japanese after the official surrender of all US Forces, it is
> also noteworthy that 4th Marines regimental headquarters have never
> returned to the continental United States since then.
I don't follow the reasoning. *Why* is it noteworthy? I'm not being
argumentative, I just don't understand and am asking for clarification.
JanetM
posted
--
Janet Miles (jmi...@usit.net) <www.public.usit.net/jmiles>
Loyal Webcrafter: PenUltimate Productions <www.worthlink.net/~ysabet>
Member: SSBB Diplomatic Corps -- East Tennessee
"Bananas in the fridge. Potassium is important." -- Slash Maraud 1/30/00
Bill Gawne
Janet Miles wrote:
>
> Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Along these lines, it's worth noting that 4th Marines lost their
> > colors at Corregidor in the Philippines. (They actually burned them
> > to prevent their capture.) While new colors were provided to the
> > reconstituted 4th Marine Regiment which was formed around the
> > cadre of escapees who fought with Fillipino forces against the
> > Japanese after the official surrender of all US Forces, it is
> > also noteworthy that 4th Marines regimental headquarters have never
> > returned to the continental United States since then.
>
> I don't follow the reasoning. *Why* is it noteworthy? I'm not being
> argumentative, I just don't understand and am asking for clarification.
I was following on Craig's comparison of the Marine Corps to the
Roman Legions. No legion that lost its eagles would be allowed to
re-enter the gates of Rome.
Craig Motbey
<snip>
>While we keep 169,000 Marines on
>active duty, and another 40,000 in the Marine Corps Reserve.
>It's nice to know that our cooks and bakers deserve to be compared
>to their best.
Just for a little comparison here, the entire manpower of the
Australian Army is about 50,000...
--
Craig Motbey
Hecate
wrote:
>The Polymath:
>
>> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
>
>The difference being what I mentioned earlier: The SEALs are a very
>small elite unit within the US Navy. We have similar units in the
>Marine Corps (Force Reconaissance Company within the SRI Group, for
>one example, ANGLICO for another) but we don't play up the 'special'
>nature of those units. The Marine Raiders of WW II were every bit
>as extreme as today's SEAL teams. But specialty units are subject
>to the political whims of the day.
>
If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
(Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
(definitely not <g>) representative of them.
Hecate
Bill Gawne
> >While we keep 169,000 Marines on
> >active duty, and another 40,000 in the Marine Corps Reserve.
Craig M:
> Just for a little comparison here, the entire manpower of the
> Australian Army is about 50,000...
But Australia has a much smaller population too, doesn't it?
The CIA Factbook gives 18,783,551 as the July 1999 estimate.
Compare that to the United States with an estimated population
of 272,639,608.
Looked at that way, the total number of active duty and
reserve Marines is less than .08% of the US population.
The entire US armed forces only constitute a bit over 1%
of the population.
By contrast, Australia has around 0.26% of its population in uniform.
So yeah, the US has about 4x as many people in uniform per capita,
but we also have a LOT more in the way of forward deployed and
forward based forces.
Bill Gawne
Hecate:
> If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
> British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
> have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
> (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
> very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
> (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
Hmmm... My information may be out of date, but as recently as
1992 the SBS were part of the Royal Marine Commando, not the
British Army. The SAS (21st, 22nd, and 23rd) are indeed some
*very* special Army units.
(Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
>
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:10:15 -0400, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >The Polymath:
> >
> >> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
> >
> >The difference being what I mentioned earlier: The SEALs are a very
> >small elite unit within the US Navy. We have similar units in the
> >Marine Corps (Force Reconaissance Company within the SRI Group, for
> >one example, ANGLICO for another) but we don't play up the 'special'
> >nature of those units. The Marine Raiders of WW II were every bit
> >as extreme as today's SEAL teams. But specialty units are subject
> >to the political whims of the day.
> >
> British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
> have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
> (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
> very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
> (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
A friend of mine who was, at the time, a captain in the British Army (he
recently retired as a brigidier general) was assigned to the Royal
Marine Commandos for a year. He had to go through the same training
they did, so the men would respect him. I got to hear the horror
stories. The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
I'm told insanity is a _requirement_ for membership in the SAS. (-:
David G. Bell
ga...@pha.jhu.edu "Bill Gawne" wrote:
> [p&e]
>
> Hecate:
> > If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
> > British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
> > have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
> > (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
> > very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
> > (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
>
> Hmmm... My information may be out of date, but as recently as
> 1992 the SBS were part of the Royal Marine Commando, not the
> British Army. The SAS (21st, 22nd, and 23rd) are indeed some
> *very* special Army units.
>
> (Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
> from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
> Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
> Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
> to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
> Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
I _think_ it was the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre, and did both
training, and special forces stuff. There was a TV documentary series
on them, back in the eighties sometime.
The Royal Marines seem to have a bit more flexibility than the Army, and
some of these units have changed names and gotten shuffled fairly often.
Another slightly special RM mob was Commachio Troop.
SkyeFire
writes:
>
>> By the time you read this there should be a whisky-fuelled Don Paul
>> rampaging around the glens trying to hunt haggis with his new boomerang.
>
>Now *THAT* is a mental image.
>
>Whew! I can hardly wait for the news. Oh Don? Praytell, how
>*did* the hunt go?
Yeah! Any casualties? Those haggisi are nasty buggers, y'know -- feral,
predatory, occasionally poisonous, and sneaky too!
Hecate
wrote:
>[p&e]
>
>Hecate:
>> If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
>> British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
>> have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
>> (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
>> very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
>> (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
>
>Hmmm... My information may be out of date, but as recently as
>1992 the SBS were part of the Royal Marine Commando, not the
>British Army. The SAS (21st, 22nd, and 23rd) are indeed some
>*very* special Army units.
Sorry, Bill. I think my brain was a little mixed up. :) Of course,
they are Navy.
>(Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
>from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
>Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
>Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
>to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
>Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
--
Hecate
<poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Hecate wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:10:15 -0400, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >The Polymath:
>> >
>> >> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
>> >
>> >The difference being what I mentioned earlier: The SEALs are a very
>> >small elite unit within the US Navy. We have similar units in the
>> >Marine Corps (Force Reconaissance Company within the SRI Group, for
>> >one example, ANGLICO for another) but we don't play up the 'special'
>> >nature of those units. The Marine Raiders of WW II were every bit
>> >as extreme as today's SEAL teams. But specialty units are subject
>> >to the political whims of the day.
>> >
>> If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
>> British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
>> have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
>> (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
>> very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
>> (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
>
>A friend of mine who was, at the time, a captain in the British Army (he
>recently retired as a brigidier general) was assigned to the Royal
>Marine Commandos for a year. He had to go through the same training
>they did, so the men would respect him. I got to hear the horror
>stories. The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
>Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
>I'm told insanity is a _requirement_ for membership in the SAS. (-:
It certainly helps!
Bill Gawne
> A friend of mine who was, at the time, a captain in the British Army (he
> recently retired as a brigidier general) was assigned to the Royal
> Marine Commandos for a year. He had to go through the same training
> they did, so the men would respect him. I got to hear the horror
> stories.
Ah yes, the simple joys of their 30 week long boot camp. (I've known
a few Royal Marines, and heard the tales first hand.)
> The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
> Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
(Bill takes a moment to ask, "Plain?")
Again, there are a lot less of them. Three battalions, plus the specialty
squadrons. The USMC would gladly keep our recruits in training for 7
months
if Congress would allocate the funds, but as it is we get by with 13 weeks
of recruit training followed by a rigorous training schedule for all the
active duty units.
> I'm told insanity is a _requirement_ for membership in the SAS. (-:
Well, a 'different outlook' on life, at least.
22nd SAS are the really interesting bunch. They're a reserve SAS
battalion, and membership is limited to prior active service SAS men
from 21st or 23rd SAS. I suspect they kinda stand out among the run of
the mill civilian population of Britain.
(And yet another thing about the USMC. Note that I *know* about these
allied units. That's not terribly unusual. Most senior enlisted Marines
do, and most Marine officers do.)
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@abs.net>
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
>
> The Polymath:
>
> > A friend of mine who was, at the time, a captain in the British Army (he
> > recently retired as a brigidier general) was assigned to the Royal
> > Marine Commandos for a year. He had to go through the same training
> > they did, so the men would respect him. I got to hear the horror
> > stories.
>
> Ah yes, the simple joys of their 30 week long boot camp. (I've known
> a few Royal Marines, and heard the tales first hand.)
>
> > The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
> > Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
>
> (Bill takes a moment to ask, "Plain?")
"Plain" as in not part of some elite subset of the Marines. I concede
the Marines as a whole are an elite subset of our armed forces.
> > I'm told insanity is a _requirement_ for membership in the SAS. (-:
>
> Well, a 'different outlook' on life, at least.
>
> 22nd SAS are the really interesting bunch. They're a reserve SAS
> battalion, and membership is limited to prior active service SAS men
> from 21st or 23rd SAS. I suspect they kinda stand out among the run of
> the mill civilian population of Britain.
According to my friend, the retired general, most of them would be in
prison for assorted crimes of violence if they weren't in the SAS.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) "There are no good plan Bs. If
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/ they were good, they'd be plan A."
http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa/ -- The Magic School Bus
i_am_not...@my-deja.com
Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
<snip>
> By contrast, Australia has around 0.26% of its population in uniform.
> So yeah, the US has about 4x as many people in uniform per capita,
> but we also have a LOT more in the way of forward deployed and
> forward based forces.
Yah; Australia lacks the clout to seriously exert military influence
away from our own shore, so we don't bother maintaining the force to
do so.
As for home defense...the only realistic threat to Australia these days
is Indonesia, and if it comes down to number of bodies on the line we're
screwed anyway.
Indonesia's population (about 220 million) would roll straight over the
top of us; if it comes to it, our only defense is diplomacy and
technology. We've decided that there's no point getting into an
arse-kicking contest with a centipede...
--
Craig Motbey
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
denaldo
Mental picture of Don Paul/John Cleese insisting to the befuddled
bureaucrat " I need a hunting license for my pet Haggis."
--
Denaldo aka Dennis M. Dillow ddi...@flash.net
"Onward, through the fog." Oat Willie
dogbertcarroll
<i_am_not...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8kj5h9$enu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Don't forget a near infinite supply of the deadliest spiders on the face
of the earth!!
dogbertcarroll
Hecate
>22nd SAS are the really interesting bunch. They're a reserve SAS
>battalion, and membership is limited to prior active service SAS men
>from 21st or 23rd SAS. I suspect they kinda stand out among the run of
>the mill civilian population of Britain.
>
Interesting story. For a couple of years I was working with the Army
Padres, dealing with postings etc. The Padre for 22 SAS was man who'd
been a PAra Officer, in the Falklands, left the army to get ordained,
and then moved on to 22 SAS. The only exception to the rule that I
know of :)
David G. Bell
<r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
Bill Gawne
Me, earlier:
> > (Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
> > from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
> > Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
> > Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
> > to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
> > Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
David Bell:
> I _think_ it was the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre,
Could be. Might they have once been a Squadron that was reduced
to cadre strength?
> and did both
> training, and special forces stuff. There was a TV documentary series
> on them, back in the eighties sometime.
I remember a wonderfully vivid picture of a Royal Marine in that
unit climbing a glacier, using little hand pickaxes. He had two
long icicles hanging from each side of his moustache. They had
formed out of the condensation in his breath.
> The Royal Marines seem to have a bit more flexibility than the Army, and
> some of these units have changed names and gotten shuffled fairly often.
The US Marines enjoyed that kind of flexibility up until 1947. Due
to a number of things that occured in the late 40's and early 50's,
the various specialized units were largely done away with. The
specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
> Another slightly special RM mob was Commachio Troop.
What might they be? I can't say I've ever heard of them.
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> |
Bill Gawne
> > Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
> > Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
David Bell:
> But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
Which proves that they're not *completely* insane.
Bill Gawne
> > > The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
> > > Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
> >
> > (Bill takes a moment to ask, "Plain?")
>
> "Plain" as in not part of some elite subset of the Marines. I concede
> the Marines as a whole are an elite subset of our armed forces.
S'ok. I figured that's what you meant.
I happen to like that the specialized units like Force Recon and ANGLICO
are not generally recognized outside the Corps. Yeah, those people are
very, very good at what they do, but I like that we are all Marines.
In the field we all wear the same camoflage uniform, we all have the
same black iron-on transfer on our left breast pocket (that being the
one closest to the heart) and we all take off the shiny stuff. To an
opposing force, we're looming green shadows with black USMC written on
us.... With lots and lots of firepower.
> > > I'm told insanity is a _requirement_ for membership in the SAS. (-:
> >
> > Well, a 'different outlook' on life, at least.
> >
> > 22nd SAS are the really interesting bunch. They're a reserve SAS
> > battalion, and membership is limited to prior active service SAS men
> > from 21st or 23rd SAS. I suspect they kinda stand out among the run of
> > the mill civilian population of Britain.
>
> According to my friend, the retired general, most of them would be in
> prison for assorted crimes of violence if they weren't in the SAS.
The active duty SAS? Or the 22nd SAS?
Back when I joined the Corps in 72, a fair number of my fellow
recruits in platoon 207 were guys who'd been given a choice of
jail time or joining the Marine Corps. Some of them made pretty
good Marines. Others were real disciplinary problems the whole
time they were in, and some of those ended up in the brig.
All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
become squared away good people.
Janet D. Miles
Bill Gawne wrote:
> The US Marines enjoyed that kind of flexibility up until 1947. Due
> to a number of things that occured in the late 40's and early 50's,
> the various specialized units were largely done away with. The
> specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
> squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
> a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
Hostage rescue?
The "black bag" jobs so beloved of mystery writers, especially from the Cold War
era?
Sabotage?
I dunno; what?
JanetM
--
Posted by Janet Miles <jmi...@usit.net> <http://www.public.usit.net/jmiles>
"This is Callahan's Place, and it's Callahan's Place because of everyone
who comes in and ensures it stays that way." -- Robert Farquhar, July 15, 1998
Loyal Webcrafter: PenUltimate Productions <http://www.worthlink.net/~ysabet>
Matthew T. Russotto
Janet D. Miles <jmi...@usit.net> wrote:
}On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:27:56 -0400, in message <396DC3DC...@pha.jhu.edu>,
}Bill Gawne wrote:
}
}> The US Marines enjoyed that kind of flexibility up until 1947. Due
}> to a number of things that occured in the late 40's and early 50's,
}> the various specialized units were largely done away with. The
}> specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
}> squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
}> a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
}
}Hostage rescue?
}
}The "black bag" jobs so beloved of mystery writers, especially from the Cold War
}era?
}
}Sabotage?
}
}I dunno; what?
Assassination would be my guess, except We Don't Do That.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Bill Gawne
> }> specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
> }> squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
> }> a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
Janet opined:
> }Hostage rescue?
> }
> }The "black bag" jobs so beloved of mystery writers, especially from the Cold War
> }era?
> }
> }Sabotage?
> }
> }I dunno; what?
I answered Janet in e-mail, but basically the answer is along
the lines of 'all of the above'.
Matthew:
> Assassination would be my guess, except We Don't Do That.
That's right. We don't do that. Even discussing it is a big no-no.
(However, our Scout/Sniper teams are very good at target selection.
Strategic military targets can often be valid targets, depending on
the mission.)
David G. Bell
ga...@pha.jhu.edu "Bill Gawne" wrote:
> [p&e]
>
> Me, earlier:
> > > (Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
> > > from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
> > > Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
> > > Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
> > > to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
> > > Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
>
> David Bell:
> > I _think_ it was the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre,
>
> Could be. Might they have once been a Squadron that was reduced
> to cadre strength?
No idea. As I recall things, they were essentially the people who
trained the instructors and were dual-roled for SBS/SAS style ops in
Norway.
> > and did both
> > training, and special forces stuff. There was a TV documentary series
> > on them, back in the eighties sometime.
>
> I remember a wonderfully vivid picture of a Royal Marine in that
> unit climbing a glacier, using little hand pickaxes. He had two
> long icicles hanging from each side of his moustache. They had
> formed out of the condensation in his breath.
>
> > The Royal Marines seem to have a bit more flexibility than the Army, and
> > some of these units have changed names and gotten shuffled fairly often.
>
> The US Marines enjoyed that kind of flexibility up until 1947. Due
> to a number of things that occured in the late 40's and early 50's,
> the various specialized units were largely done away with. The
> specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
> squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
> a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
If you tell me I shall probably be in breach of the Official Secrets
Act...
> > Another slightly special RM mob was Commachio Troop.
>
> What might they be? I can't say I've ever heard of them.
I'm hazy on the details -- something to do with counter terrorism and
the North Sea oil and gas platforms.
David G. Bell
ga...@pha.jhu.edu "Bill Gawne" wrote:
> > According to my friend, the retired general, most of them would be in
> > prison for assorted crimes of violence if they weren't in the SAS.
>
> The active duty SAS? Or the 22nd SAS?
>
> Back when I joined the Corps in 72, a fair number of my fellow
> recruits in platoon 207 were guys who'd been given a choice of
> jail time or joining the Marine Corps. Some of them made pretty
> good Marines. Others were real disciplinary problems the whole
> time they were in, and some of those ended up in the brig.
>
> All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
> something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
> are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
> become squared away good people.
Thinking about one or two local lads, they could have turned bad if they
hadn't joined the forces. General sigh of relief when they left home,
and a year or two later they're in the pub, on leave, with short
haircuts and tall stories.
Jette
("David G. Bell") wrote:
>On Wednesday, in article
> <r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
> Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
>
>> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
>> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
>
>But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
>
Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
<g>
Jette Goldie
jette...@thefreeinternet.co.uk
********************************
HISTORICON 2001 - A Scottish Fantasy/SF Convention
History,Mythology, Big Swords.
Heroes - and don't forget the Villains!
http://you.genie.co.uk/jette.goldie/
Jette
wrote:
>> According to my friend, the retired general, most of them would be in
>> prison for assorted crimes of violence if they weren't in the SAS.
>
>The active duty SAS? Or the 22nd SAS?
>
>Back when I joined the Corps in 72, a fair number of my fellow
>recruits in platoon 207 were guys who'd been given a choice of
>jail time or joining the Marine Corps. Some of them made pretty
>good Marines. Others were real disciplinary problems the whole
>time they were in, and some of those ended up in the brig.
>
>All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
>something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
>are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
>become squared away good people.
>
I think what was meant is that if it were not for the outlet the SAS
gives them, some of these guys would be a danger to society.
You've heard of the XYY syndrome?
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> The Polymath:
> > According to my friend, the retired general, most of them would be in
> > prison for assorted crimes of violence if they weren't in the SAS.
>
> The active duty SAS? Or the 22nd SAS?
He didn't specify.
> Back when I joined the Corps in 72, a fair number of my fellow
> recruits in platoon 207 were guys who'd been given a choice of
> jail time or joining the Marine Corps. Some of them made pretty
> good Marines. Others were real disciplinary problems the whole
> time they were in, and some of those ended up in the brig.
A former co-worker and fellow frp gamer used to claim he got both into
and out of the Navy as alternatives to going to jail. I never asked him
what the specific charges were.
> All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
> something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
> are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
> become squared away good people.
As far as I know, the military no longer accepts recruits under those
conditions and the courts no longer offer the option.
Hecate
wrote:
>The active duty SAS? Or the 22nd SAS?
That'd be the 22nd <g> Given the actual size of the units, a fair few
do turn up in unwelcome places <g> The leader of the military
supporting Speight in Fiji is SAS-trained.
>Back when I joined the Corps in 72, a fair number of my fellow
>recruits in platoon 207 were guys who'd been given a choice of
>jail time or joining the Marine Corps. Some of them made pretty
>good Marines. Others were real disciplinary problems the whole
>time they were in, and some of those ended up in the brig.
>
>All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
>something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
>are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
>become squared away good people.
Absolutely. The army is willing to give it a go, but not as a policy.
And they would have to really claen up their act *and be superb at
waht they do for them to get anywhere near our Special Forces.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> Me, earlier:
> > }> specialized *missions* remain, but the people who perform them are
> > }> squirreled away in units with obscure names. (Care to guess what
> > }> a Direct Action Platoon might be?)
>
> > }Hostage rescue?
> > }
> > }The "black bag" jobs so beloved of mystery writers, especially from the Cold War
> > }era?
> > }
> > }Sabotage?
> > }
> > }I dunno; what?
>
> I answered Janet in e-mail, but basically the answer is along
> the lines of 'all of the above'.
>
> Matthew:
> > Assassination would be my guess, except We Don't Do That.
>
> That's right. We don't do that. Even discussing it is a big no-no.
>
> (However, our Scout/Sniper teams are very good at target selection.
> Strategic military targets can often be valid targets, depending on
> the mission.)
I am reminded of the US military policy that says .50 BMG caliber rounds
are only to be used against enemy equipment, not personnel. Some of the
soldiers in Desert Storm decided that meant it was OK to use them to
shoot at tee-shirts and belt buckles.
Christine Krebs-Bonder
>
>> The RMC are closer in spirit to our SEALs or, at least, Recon
>> Marines, than to plain, USMC Marines.
>
>(Bill takes a moment to ask, "Plain?")
>
Piggy backing but I couldn't resist....
Christine raises a surprised eyebrow. "Plain? You mean no whipped
cream and hot fudge sauce?"
<grin>
(Actually, I can't say that any marine I ever met could be called
"plain." They were far too interesting for that adjective.
Christine ( and Micah =^..^= but he's decided to evacuate the vicinty
once he heard what I was saying)
Lawrence Lundigan
"Jette" <bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
news:396e2990...@news.freeuk.net...
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:32:07 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
> ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, in article
> > <r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
> > Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
> >
> >> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
> >> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
> >
> >But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
> >
>
> Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
> <g>
>
>
> Jette Goldie
Just so no one gets the wrong idea about the Ghurkas, those hillmen are some
of nicest, warmest, most wonderful people you will ever meet.
Also, the bravest
--
"On guard, you musty sofa"
Larry
Hecate
wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:32:07 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
>("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, in article
>> <r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
>> Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
>>
>>> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
>>> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
>>
>>But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
>>
>
>Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
><g>
>
>
I lived very near the main Gurkha HQ (I say lived, because they moved
it this year). When you went into town, you usally saw small groups of
wel dressed men behaving impeccably.I think it made people shopping
feel very safe. Interestingly enough, crime seemed to be less in our
town <g>
Hecate
<larr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>"Jette" <bosslad...@mydeja.com> wrote in message
>news:396e2990...@news.freeuk.net...
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:32:07 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
>> ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, in article
>> > <r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
>> > Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
>> >> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
>> >
>> >But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
>> >
>>
>> Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
>> <g>
>>
>>
>> Jette Goldie
>
>Just so no one gets the wrong idea about the Ghurkas, those hillmen are some
>of nicest, warmest, most wonderful people you will ever meet.
>
>Also, the bravest
And the politest. And the deadliest. I worked with them for a while,
and they also cook the most wonderful food :)
David G. Bell
<rprsmsc35lies4m1n...@4ax.com>
Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:33:42 GMT, bosslad...@mydeja.com (Jette)
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:32:07 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
> >("David G. Bell") wrote:
> >
> >>On Wednesday, in article
> >> <r3rpmsg82tpsef95j...@4ax.com>
> >> Hec...@bigfoot.com "Hecate" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Our Commandoes often have interesting 'discussions', with our
> >>> Paratroops, as to thier actual status :)
> >>
> >>But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
> >>
> >
> >Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
> ><g>
> >
> >
> I lived very near the main Gurkha HQ (I say lived, because they moved
> it this year). When you went into town, you usally saw small groups of
> wel dressed men behaving impeccably.I think it made people shopping
> feel very safe. Interestingly enough, crime seemed to be less in our
> town <g>
Yes, they're now based at Catterick.
I think that _their_ basic training runs for 38 weeks, but it includes
stuff such as learning English.
And the Ghurka regiments are _very_ selective about recruiting; they can
only accept a very small proportion of the applicants.
Seeing them on parade can look rather strange -- they have pipe bands,
and they're riflemen.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Copyright 2000 David G. Bell
The right to insert advertising material in the above text is reserved
to the author. The author did not use any form of HTML in the above text.
Any text following this line was added without the author's permission.
Bill Longley
>On Saturday, in article <3967DF5F...@pacbell.net>
> poly...@pacbell.net "The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)" wrote:
>
>> More along Don Paul's line of work is the current propensity for
>> claiming anything black and/or vaguely high tech is "used by US Navy
>> SEALs." I've seen this line applied to everything from assault rifles
>> to ball point pens. I'm currently wearing a watch that says "NAVY
>> SEALS" on its face (that's not why I'm wearing it).
>>
>> In the public mind, the SEALs have even more cachet than the Marines.
>
>There's been a recent thread elsegroup about some of the claims made for
>the effects of magnets on water supplies.
And there's a spate of junk-mail arriving here promoting similar
devices.
>One documented item of escape and evasion equipment, issued to RAF
>aircrew in WW2, is the magetised trouser button used as a compass.
>
>It doesn't seem too difficult to combine the two and create some sort of
>magical trouser button, as used by the famous military unit of your
>choice, which has certain special effects on the wearer, in consequence
>of the magnetic field aligning the haemoglobin (it contains iron) un the
>blood, and so improving the blood supply to certain organs.
They haven't managed to work in a military aspect yet, but I have here a
packet of "Magna-Power" therapeutic massage soles "Fitted with 10 pieces
of magnets!", the packaging of which implies stimulation of many
important pressure points on the sole of the foot. The magnets, however,
appear to be placed at the points concerned with the rectum, anus,
bladder, ureters and kidneys. I suspect some marketing asshole is taking
the piss.
--
Bill Longley
Bill Longley
>
>Hecate:
>> If I can just put in a sdiebar here. It's exactly the same in the
>> British forces. We have Marines - The Royal Marine Commandos. They
>> have much the same attitude as American Marines. We also have the SAS
>> (Special Air Service) and SBS (Special Boat Service). These two are
>> very different, small, elite units which are part of the army, but not
>> (definitely not <g>) representative of them.
>
>Hmmm... My information may be out of date, but as recently as
>1992 the SBS were part of the Royal Marine Commando, not the
>British Army. The SAS (21st, 22nd, and 23rd) are indeed some
>*very* special Army units.
That sounds right. Well, it sounds _accurate_ anyway - I'm still
wondering if there's a Special Land Service that's part of the Royal Air
Force. ;-)
The "Special" tag has become quite important. When I was a kid we'd look
in awe at generic "commandos". Later the ones to look up to where the
SAS (particularly after the Iranian Embassy siege) and apparently the
SBS became flavour-of-the-day later, possibly due to Paddy Ashdown
becoming leader of the Liberal Democrats (or whatever they were called
that week).
I am actively suspicious that marketing is being involved in the status
of UK military services. So many plastic soldiers to sell, so many
military history books, et cetera. There really are good business
reasons to promote one service over another - and to change that status
over time for marketing reasons rather than old-fashioned respect. :-(
>(Trying to remember back to guest presentations at Quantico
>from Royal Marine exchange officers, I think the Royal Marine
>Commando also have a SRS - Special Raider Squadron - and an
>Arctic/Mountain Warfare Squadron. These units map, roughly,
>to the mission profiles of the US Marine Raiders (SRS),
>Force Recon (SBS), and Mountain Warfare Training Center.)
I was wondering which formerly-unfamiliar special service will be next
in the limelight. I think I'd bet on the SRS rather than the
East-Anglian Mountain Rescue team though...
>I love it when people try to draw comparisons between SEALs or
>Green Berets or Army Airborne Rangers and the Marine Corps.
>It means that they are trying to compare a small, elite subgroup
>to an entire branch of service.
Personally, I lose track of which groups are the Red Berets, which are
the Green Berets, and which are the Raspberry Berets, but I suspect the
last don't work too well in ASCII nowadays. ;-)
--
Bill Longley
Bill Longley
>In article <396B54F7...@pha.jhu.edu>, ga...@pha.jhu.edu says...
>>While we keep 169,000 Marines on
>>active duty, and another 40,000 in the Marine Corps Reserve.
>>It's nice to know that our cooks and bakers deserve to be compared
>>to their best.
>
>Just for a little comparison here, the entire manpower of the
>Australian Army is about 50,000...
But you don't have Canadian Imperialist Goodwenches threatening your
northern borders...
--
Bill Longley
John Hayes
> Yah; Australia lacks the clout to seriously exert military influence
> away from our own shore, so we don't bother maintaining the force to
> do so.
>Craig Motbey
I guess in sheer numbers, maybe so... but there's always quality over
quantity :) I have to say that I found your submariners to be pretty
impressive - the HMAS WALLER was just over here for RIMPAC, and they came in
for some tactics training and simulator time at the training center where I
work... I ran a few of their simulator sessions - pretty darned impressive,
considering they were working with equipment they'd never used before. Great
folks, all of 'em; we really enjoy having Australian subs come over for
training.
And -- not to open up this well-abused can of worms again, but -- their
female sonar tech was an exceptional plotter, one of the best I'd seen. The
reaction of the American enlisted guys running the trainer was something of
the order of, "wow...how about that...a female sonar tech..."
John Hayes
Jette
("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
:)
>> >>
>> >>But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
>> ><g>
>> >
>> >
>> I lived very near the main Gurkha HQ (I say lived, because they moved
>> it this year). When you went into town, you usally saw small groups of
>> wel dressed men behaving impeccably.I think it made people shopping
>> feel very safe. Interestingly enough, crime seemed to be less in our
>> town <g>
>
>Yes, they're now based at Catterick.
They often get stationed in Edinburgh. We see these very polite little
(they don't tend to be tall) men around town, impeccable dressed and
always smiling.
>
>I think that _their_ basic training runs for 38 weeks, but it includes
>stuff such as learning English.
>
Basic English <g>.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> In article <396E3F60...@pacbell.net>, "The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)" <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >I am reminded of the US military policy that says .50 BMG caliber rounds
> >are only to be used against enemy equipment, not personnel. Some of the
> >soldiers in Desert Storm decided that meant it was OK to use them to
> >shoot at tee-shirts and belt buckles.
>
> it's an urban legend. One poster came up with some appropriate links.
>
> http://ogc4.hq.dla.mil/html/practice/contingency/manual/chap07.htm
> http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/decpeter.htm
> http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm
>
> (Thanks go to Bob Keeter <bke...@netway.com> for the original post.)
While the content at the last two URLs may be interpreted to say they
shouldn't have done what they purportedly did, I didn't find anything
that proved they didn't do it. I was unable to connect to the first
URL.
Indiana Joe
>I am reminded of the US military policy that says .50 BMG caliber rounds
>are only to be used against enemy equipment, not personnel. Some of the
>soldiers in Desert Storm decided that meant it was OK to use them to
>shoot at tee-shirts and belt buckles.
This question came up recently in sci.military.moderated. Evidently
it's an urban legend. One poster came up with some appropriate links.
http://ogc4.hq.dla.mil/html/practice/contingency/manual/chap07.htm
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/decpeter.htm
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm
(Thanks go to Bob Keeter <bke...@netway.com> for the original post.)
--
Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
jr...@home.net | -- Daniel Burnham
Colin Rosenthal
It's a man's life in the Women's Royal Auxiliary Balloon Corps.
--
Colin Rosenthal
Astrophysics Institute
University of Oslo
David G. Bell
bosslad...@mydeja.com "Jette" wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:02:23 +0100 (BST), db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk
> ("David G. Bell") wrote:
>
> >
> :)
> >> >>
> >> >>But neither of them will discuss such matters with the Ghurkas.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Everyone in the British Army is very very careful around the Ghurkas
> >> ><g>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> I lived very near the main Gurkha HQ (I say lived, because they moved
> >> it this year). When you went into town, you usally saw small groups of
> >> wel dressed men behaving impeccably.I think it made people shopping
> >> feel very safe. Interestingly enough, crime seemed to be less in our
> >> town <g>
> >
> >Yes, they're now based at Catterick.
>
> They often get stationed in Edinburgh. We see these very polite little
> (they don't tend to be tall) men around town, impeccable dressed and
> always smiling.
>
> >
> >I think that _their_ basic training runs for 38 weeks, but it includes
> >stuff such as learning English.
> >
>
> Basic English <g>.
I remember when the Ghurkas were providing the Guard at Buckingham
Palace, and how nobody seemed to take notice that the head of state of a
democratic nation was being guarded by foreign mercenaries. It was the
sort of situation that you might associate with some third-world
dictatorship.
But there they were, maybe disappointing a few tourists who wanted to
glamour of the old red coats, and admired by the ones who knew their
history. They started by serving the East India Company (which was, by
then, effectively owned by the British Government), and then the old
Indian Army (which was the largest all-volunteer army the world has ever
seen), and are still a part of the modern Indian Army and the British
Army.
I think there was a company of Ghurkas serving with the Parachute
Regiment in Kossovo, and in Africa.
The Ghurkas have been around for longer than the French Foreign Legion,
but we don't think of them as mercenaries. They're nothing like the
Wild Geese, or the Irish Brigade in the Union Army, or the assorted Free
europeans of WW2 who carried on the fight when their countries were
occupied by the Germans and Italians. They're not driven by desires for
revenge or liberty.
And whatever sort of soldier you are, Marine or Guardsman or Paratrooper
or Dorsai, from Legionary to Legionnaire, leave a space at the bar for
the Ghurkas.
Don Paul
Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:396DC767...@pha.jhu.edu...
> All in all, I think the idea of taking convicts as recruits is
> something to avoid unless you're desperate for manpower. The odds
> are against you with them. Though some certainly have gone on to
> become squared away good people
Tell that to Lee Marvin and his Dirty Dozen!
Bill Gawne
> And whatever sort of soldier you are, Marine or Guardsman or Paratrooper
> or Dorsai, from Legionary to Legionnaire, leave a space at the bar for
> the Ghurkas.
Indeed. Those little guys are welcome anywhere I'm drinking. Fine,
fine soldiers.
Leslie
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:09:48 -0400, Bill Gawne spake thusly:
="David G. Bell" wrote:
=> And whatever sort of soldier you are, Marine or Guardsman or Paratrooper
=> or Dorsai, from Legionary to Legionnaire, leave a space at the bar for
=> the Ghurkas.
=
=Indeed. Those little guys are welcome anywhere I'm drinking. Fine,
=fine soldiers.
"So, when is somebody going to explain who Ghurkas might be? (My
dictionary doesn't mention the word!)"
Leslie.
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mor...@niuhep.physics.niu.edu
>Bill Gawne spake thusly:
>="David G. Bell" wrote:
>=> And whatever sort of soldier you are, Marine or Guardsman or Paratrooper
>=> or Dorsai, from Legionary to Legionnaire, leave a space at the bar for
>=> the Ghurkas.
>=Indeed. Those little guys are welcome anywhere I'm drinking. Fine,
>=fine soldiers.
>"So, when is somebody going to explain who Ghurkas might be? (My
>dictionary doesn't mention the word!)"
I'll let others do the definition and toss out some trivia:
they have to be taught to march heel-toe.
>Leslie.
Robert the PIlegrim
Bill Gawne
Leslie:
> "So, when is somebody going to explain who Ghurkas might be? (My
> dictionary doesn't mention the word!)"
"Sorry bout that," Bill says, while doing a quick web search.
"Here, this is the Ghurka FAQ page..."
http://www.tx3.net/~howardw/Khukuris/Ghurkas.htm
(Basically, they are Nepalese troops. They are especially well
known for their service both in, and before that opposed to, the
British Army.)