I have recently been going through family records and have found a number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from the army etc..
What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
the Communist Party, American Christian Nationalist Party, American Jewish Labor Council, American League Against War and Fascism, American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights Congress of American Woman Council of Greek Americans German-American Republican League Industrial Workers of the World Harlem Trade Council Michigan Civil Rights Federation Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of Subversive activity National Committee for Freedom of the Press National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) National Negro Congress Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. People's Radio Foundation Polonia Society of the IWO Sakura Kai Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass Santa Barbara Peace Forum Ukranian-American Fraternal Union Washington Bookshop Association Yugoslav Seamen's Club Yiddisher Kultur FArband
Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list is extensive.. many of the same names on list
Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it goes on and on..
So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early 1950.. Interesting
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT), Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote:
>So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so >"open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early >1950.. Interesting
When I went through my Selective Service draft physical in 1967, we were given a very similar (more extensive, I think it was three columns on a page in small type) list. Someone complained that there was no way to read the whole list in the brief time allowed. The sergeant in charge growled that "These are all Communist front organizations, you know if you belong to one of them!"
If I'd had more courage I would have replied (in my best Arkansas drawl) "Suh, Ah had no idea that the Association of Georgia Klans was a Commie front!" --
John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
> I have recently been going through family records and have found a > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > the army etc..
> What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> the Communist Party, > American Christian Nationalist Party, > American Jewish Labor Council, > American League Against War and Fascism, > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > Congress of American Woman > Council of Greek Americans > German-American Republican League > Industrial Workers of the World > Harlem Trade Council > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > Subversive activity > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > National Negro Congress > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > People's Radio Foundation > Polonia Society of the IWO > Sakura Kai > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > Washington Bookshop Association > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > goes on and on..
> So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > 1950.. Interesting
> Moira
We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. It has been eroding since.
Victor Belenko, the Soviet Mig pilot who defected remembered being told that members of the American Communist Party were persecuted. His first thought was WTF? They allow a Communist Party? The Soviets would have never allowed a Democratic party.
<jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT), Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> > wrote:
> >So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > >"open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > >1950.. Interesting
> When I went through my Selective Service draft physical in 1967, we were given > a very similar (more extensive, I think it was three columns on a page in > small type) list. Someone complained that there was no way to read the whole > list in the brief time allowed. The sergeant in charge growled that "These are > all Communist front organizations, you know if you belong to one of them!"
> If I'd had more courage I would have replied (in my best Arkansas drawl) "Suh, > Ah had no idea that the Association of Georgia Klans was a Commie front!" > --
> John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
lol i picked up on the washington book sellers :) (look look its a librarian and shes a commie; see what she has let that child read its...................Irish red, by jim kilguard. obviously a comunist book just look at the title.)
Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote: >I have recently been going through family records and have found a >number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from >the army etc..
>What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or >had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge >there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, >Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document >was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups. [list snipped] >Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was >to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to >follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it >goes on and on..
>So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so >"open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early >1950.. Interesting
Overall, I would say we have more _personal_ liberty than in 1950s. Books that were "banned in Boston" (and almost everywhere else) can now be bought on bookstore shelves (or in "adult" bookstores). The most amazing things can be found on the web.
It used to be illegal to be gay, then to engage in sex with another man (or woman if you're a woman). Blacks: back of the bus, separate waiting rooms, etc. Abortion was illegal.
There is _still_ a long list of organizations. You'll see it if you're ever requird to fill out the e-QIP (electronic questionnaire). But for the most part it only affects you if you want a job that requires a security clearance -- basically work for a defense contractor or for the DoD, an intelligence agency -- or certain jobs in the White House or Congress (e.g., to be on the Joint Intelligence Committee). I've held 3 jobs that required a clearance -- and 5 that didn't.
To get a security clearance, you list your name, everywhere you've lived in the past 7 years (10 for Top Secret), every organization you've ever joined (LASFS,, ValSFA, every convention I ever attended, Associated Students at two colleges, YMCA at Tech...), the names and addresses of your parents, in-laws (if married). If you've seen a mental health professional in the last 7 years they want to know about it (and will probably inspect the recrods). Oddly enough, you don't have to report marital counseling.
Our right to have a lawyer, to not be forced to testify against ourselves, to "persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" are much stronger than when in the 1950s.
Women can work at almost any job (including serving in the regular military as opposed to a separate corps that just provides "morale" and nursing services).
OTOH, our right to "keep and bear arms" is more limited than in the 1950s (in most places). There a few bright points: some states have "shall issue" laws that allow everybody except convicted felons to possess and carry firearms (including concealed weapons). And SCOTUS recently decided that the 2nd amendment applied to the states as well as to Congress.
The area where we've lost the most, though, is in our economic liberties. In the 1950s, you could make almost any deal you wanted. Now there are laws against "price gouging" (charging more than some prosecutor thinks you should), many large cities have "rent control"(*), and an amazingly large number of activities carry regulations of one sort or another.
Again, though, this is a mixed bag. Banking regulations, which were quite strong from the 30s to the 70s, have been loosened up. (And we saw how well that worked...) Tariffs are down and we have nearly open trade with much of the rest of the world (WTO, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.)
Prostitution is still illegal in 49 states + DC (and the two biggest cities in the 50th state), but... look up "erotic services" on craigslist.com.
Overall, I would say that we have more freedom than back then, but there are certainly areas where we've lost ground.
(*) This is as much a limit on how much a tenant is allowed to offer as on how much a landlord can ask for. If you see a beautiful apartment and would like to offer $2000/month to make sure it goes to you instead of somebody else, that isn't allowed: the landlord can only charge whatever the controlled rent is.
On Oct 29, 12:36 pm, Lemmiwinks <lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote:
> Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > 1950.. Interesting
well, for starters, I have friends of various faiths, colors, sizes and shapes... My faith, color, at least theoretically doesn't limit where I can be employed or where I can shop or eat. (My parents remember being limited in their job opportunities by both faith and race...)
In the 1950s I wouldn't be able to live in the neighborhood where I currently live. (The deed for the home when my landlords parents bought it in the early 60s, contained phrasing that said that the house was only to be sold or rented to a White Christian person....)
> Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > I have recently been going through family records and have found a > > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > > the army etc..
> > What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> > A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> > the Communist Party, > > American Christian Nationalist Party, > > American Jewish Labor Council, > > American League Against War and Fascism, > > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > > Congress of American Woman > > Council of Greek Americans > > German-American Republican League > > Industrial Workers of the World > > Harlem Trade Council > > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > > Subversive activity > > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > > National Negro Congress > > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > > People's Radio Foundation > > Polonia Society of the IWO > > Sakura Kai > > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > > Washington Bookshop Association > > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> > Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> > Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > > goes on and on..
> > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > 1950.. Interesting
> > Moira
> We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. > It has been eroding since.
Additionally, if you're looking at "liberties" afforded to members of the military vs. overall liberties for the general public, you're trying to compare apples and oranges. As an army wife, I can tell you that there are MANY organizations, activities, etc., that military members are not permitted to engage in that would be "allowed" for the general public.
Plus, when talking about eroding liberties, perhaps it's not fully appropriate to compare to the 40s and 50s. I'd be more likely to compare liberties and freedoms to a decade ago rather than 60 years ago. I've rarely (if ever) heard someone say that we were more "free" in the 40s than we are now. I do, however, hear comparisons to 10-15 years prior (especially wrt law enforcement encroachment into personal liberties).
> On Oct 29, 9:36 am, Lemmiwinks <lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote:
> > Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > > I have recently been going through family records and have found a > > > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > > > the army etc..
> > > What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > > > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > > > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > > > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > > > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> > > A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> > > the Communist Party, > > > American Christian Nationalist Party, > > > American Jewish Labor Council, > > > American League Against War and Fascism, > > > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > > > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > > > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > > > Congress of American Woman > > > Council of Greek Americans > > > German-American Republican League > > > Industrial Workers of the World > > > Harlem Trade Council > > > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > > > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > > > Subversive activity > > > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > > > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > > > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > > > National Negro Congress > > > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > > > People's Radio Foundation > > > Polonia Society of the IWO > > > Sakura Kai > > > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > > > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > > > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > > > Washington Bookshop Association > > > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > > > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> > > Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > > > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > > > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> > > Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > > > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > > > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > > > goes on and on..
> > > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > > 1950.. Interesting
> > > Moira
> > We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. > > It has been eroding since.
> Additionally, if you're looking at "liberties" afforded to members of > the military vs. overall liberties for the general public, you're > trying to compare apples and oranges. As an army wife, I can tell you > that there are MANY organizations, activities, etc., that military > members are not permitted to engage in that would be "allowed" for the > general public.
> Plus, when talking about eroding liberties, perhaps it's not fully > appropriate to compare to the 40s and 50s. I'd be more likely to > compare liberties and freedoms to a decade ago rather than 60 years > ago. I've rarely (if ever) heard someone say that we were more "free" > in the 40s than we are now. I do, however, hear comparisons to 10-15 > years prior (especially wrt law enforcement encroachment into personal > liberties).
> Erin- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I would actually have to disagree with this Erin i think you have to look to before the 30's. IMO folks had much more freedom because it was hard to track them all over the place there where few police and local moors where the rule instead of some moronic law made in a place 50 miles away.
IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching. these days the brush runs from washington and spans the country so for any given "crime" you get tried by some guy who has never lived in your community, has no idea of what might have driven you to do the thing, and the punishment these days is just stupid. putting old ron in jail for brewing up 150 gallons of hootch has almost no effect; having a whole town of church ladies cooning (keeping an eye on) old Ron sure does. as a benifit to ron cutting down production from 150 to 100 gal he now is on a first name bases with the local widow population.
importing or exporting some extreamist idea was alot harder and things didnt catch very quickly. say a new religion springs up in the east and spreads like wild fire to the missippi, it most likly would not make it to oregon and certenly not to alaska. the push to connect the country is what has killed our freedoms
I can not remember if I had to sign such, likely did, certainally background checked enough. I had a Top Secret clearance. Likely as manager and as engineer that Dad did too. Under such a clearance, or if you desire such, your liberties are restricted. But you are free to quit without going to jail or other such.
> On Oct 29, 1:11 pm, Erin <karenan...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 9:36 am, Lemmiwinks <lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote:
> > > Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > > > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > > > I have recently been going through family records and have found a > > > > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > > > > the army etc..
> > > > What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > > > > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > > > > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > > > > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > > > > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> > > > A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> > > > the Communist Party, > > > > American Christian Nationalist Party, > > > > American Jewish Labor Council, > > > > American League Against War and Fascism, > > > > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > > > > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > > > > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > > > > Congress of American Woman > > > > Council of Greek Americans > > > > German-American Republican League > > > > Industrial Workers of the World > > > > Harlem Trade Council > > > > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > > > > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > > > > Subversive activity > > > > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > > > > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > > > > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > > > > National Negro Congress > > > > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > > > > People's Radio Foundation > > > > Polonia Society of the IWO > > > > Sakura Kai > > > > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > > > > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > > > > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > > > > Washington Bookshop Association > > > > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > > > > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> > > > Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > > > > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > > > > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> > > > Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > > > > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > > > > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > > > > goes on and on..
> > > > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > > > 1950.. Interesting
> > > > Moira
> > > We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. > > > It has been eroding since.
> > Additionally, if you're looking at "liberties" afforded to members of > > the military vs. overall liberties for the general public, you're > > trying to compare apples and oranges. As an army wife, I can tell you > > that there are MANY organizations, activities, etc., that military > > members are not permitted to engage in that would be "allowed" for the > > general public.
> > Plus, when talking about eroding liberties, perhaps it's not fully > > appropriate to compare to the 40s and 50s. I'd be more likely to > > compare liberties and freedoms to a decade ago rather than 60 years > > ago. I've rarely (if ever) heard someone say that we were more "free" > > in the 40s than we are now. I do, however, hear comparisons to 10-15 > > years prior (especially wrt law enforcement encroachment into personal > > liberties).
> > Erin- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> I would actually have to disagree with this Erin i think you have to > look to before the 30's. IMO folks had much more freedom because it > was hard to track them all over the place there where few police and > local moors where the rule instead of some moronic law made in a place > 50 miles away.
> IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many > freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could > be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a > fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching. these days the > brush runs from washington and spans the country so for any given > "crime" you get tried by some guy who has never lived in your > community, has no idea of what might have driven you to do the thing, > and the punishment these days is just stupid. putting old ron in jail > for brewing up 150 gallons of hootch has almost no effect; having a > whole town of church ladies cooning (keeping an eye on) old Ron sure > does. as a benifit to ron cutting down production from 150 to 100 gal > he now is on a first name bases with the local widow population.
> importing or exporting some extreamist idea was alot harder and things > didnt catch very quickly. say a new religion springs up in the east > and spreads like wild fire to the missippi, it most likly would not > make it to oregon and certenly not to alaska. the push to connect the > country is what has killed our freedoms
I think what you're illustrating is the danger of lumping "liberties" and "freedoms" into one broad category. As it's been mentioned elsethread, we gain, we lose, and regardless of one's political stance regarding personal liberties (or lack thereof) we could find arguments and evidence on either side :-)
> On Oct 29, 12:37 pm, Two meter troll <eawis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 1:11 pm, Erin <karenan...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 29, 9:36 am, Lemmiwinks <lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote:
> > > > Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > > > > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > > > > I have recently been going through family records and have found a > > > > > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > > > > > the army etc..
> > > > > What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > > > > > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > > > > > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > > > > > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > > > > > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> > > > > A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> > > > > the Communist Party, > > > > > American Christian Nationalist Party, > > > > > American Jewish Labor Council, > > > > > American League Against War and Fascism, > > > > > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > > > > > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > > > > > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > > > > > Congress of American Woman > > > > > Council of Greek Americans > > > > > German-American Republican League > > > > > Industrial Workers of the World > > > > > Harlem Trade Council > > > > > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > > > > > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > > > > > Subversive activity > > > > > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > > > > > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > > > > > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > > > > > National Negro Congress > > > > > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > > > > > People's Radio Foundation > > > > > Polonia Society of the IWO > > > > > Sakura Kai > > > > > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > > > > > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > > > > > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > > > > > Washington Bookshop Association > > > > > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > > > > > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> > > > > Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > > > > > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > > > > > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> > > > > Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > > > > > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > > > > > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > > > > > goes on and on..
> > > > > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > > > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > > > > 1950.. Interesting
> > > > > Moira
> > > > We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. > > > > It has been eroding since.
> > > Additionally, if you're looking at "liberties" afforded to members of > > > the military vs. overall liberties for the general public, you're > > > trying to compare apples and oranges. As an army wife, I can tell you > > > that there are MANY organizations, activities, etc., that military > > > members are not permitted to engage in that would be "allowed" for the > > > general public.
> > > Plus, when talking about eroding liberties, perhaps it's not fully > > > appropriate to compare to the 40s and 50s. I'd be more likely to > > > compare liberties and freedoms to a decade ago rather than 60 years > > > ago. I've rarely (if ever) heard someone say that we were more "free" > > > in the 40s than we are now. I do, however, hear comparisons to 10-15 > > > years prior (especially wrt law enforcement encroachment into personal > > > liberties).
> > > Erin- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > I would actually have to disagree with this Erin i think you have to > > look to before the 30's. IMO folks had much more freedom because it > > was hard to track them all over the place there where few police and > > local moors where the rule instead of some moronic law made in a place > > 50 miles away.
> > IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many > > freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could > > be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a > > fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching. these days the > > brush runs from washington and spans the country so for any given > > "crime" you get tried by some guy who has never lived in your > > community, has no idea of what might have driven you to do the thing, > > and the punishment these days is just stupid. putting old ron in jail > > for brewing up 150 gallons of hootch has almost no effect; having a > > whole town of church ladies cooning (keeping an eye on) old Ron sure > > does. as a benifit to ron cutting down production from 150 to 100 gal > > he now is on a first name bases with the local widow population.
> > importing or exporting some extreamist idea was alot harder and things > > didnt catch very quickly. say a new religion springs up in the east > > and spreads like wild fire to the missippi, it most likly would not > > make it to oregon and certenly not to alaska. the push to connect the > > country is what has killed our freedoms
> I think what you're illustrating is the danger of lumping "liberties" > and "freedoms" into one broad category. As it's been mentioned > elsethread, we gain, we lose, and regardless of one's political stance > regarding personal liberties (or lack thereof) we could find arguments > and evidence on either side :-)
> Erin- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
point
they however look kinda the same from the north slope and 300 miles from shore all over the world. its kinda hard to not have freedoms or liberties if you dont have folks to take them from you.
> On Oct 29, 1:44 pm, Erin <karenan...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 12:37 pm, Two meter troll <eawis...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 29, 1:11 pm, Erin <karenan...@hushmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 29, 9:36 am, Lemmiwinks <lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote:
> > > > > Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> wrote in news:d033ad35-01a5-4dc0-99c2- > > > > > 2d6627404...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> > > > > > I have recently been going through family records and have found a > > > > > > number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from > > > > > > the army etc..
> > > > > > What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or > > > > > > had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge > > > > > > there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, > > > > > > Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document > > > > > > was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
> > > > > > A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
> > > > > > the Communist Party, > > > > > > American Christian Nationalist Party, > > > > > > American Jewish Labor Council, > > > > > > American League Against War and Fascism, > > > > > > American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, > > > > > > Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians > > > > > > Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights > > > > > > Congress of American Woman > > > > > > Council of Greek Americans > > > > > > German-American Republican League > > > > > > Industrial Workers of the World > > > > > > Harlem Trade Council > > > > > > Michigan Civil Rights Federation > > > > > > Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of > > > > > > Subversive activity > > > > > > National Committee for Freedom of the Press > > > > > > National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least > > > > > > 3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) > > > > > > National Negro Congress > > > > > > Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. > > > > > > People's Radio Foundation > > > > > > Polonia Society of the IWO > > > > > > Sakura Kai > > > > > > Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass > > > > > > Santa Barbara Peace Forum > > > > > > Ukranian-American Fraternal Union > > > > > > Washington Bookshop Association > > > > > > Yugoslav Seamen's Club > > > > > > Yiddisher Kultur FArband
> > > > > > Later he applied for a job in engineering and had to sign a > > > > > > "Certificate of NonAffiliation with Certain Organizations" - the list > > > > > > is extensive.. many of the same names on list
> > > > > > Finally there is a 4 page document from one of his employers which was > > > > > > to be signed stating you have read, understood and were prepared to > > > > > > follow the enclosed "Federal Espionage and Sabotage Acts" and it > > > > > > goes on and on..
> > > > > > So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so > > > > > > "open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early > > > > > > 1950.. Interesting
> > > > > > Moira
> > > > > We gain and we lose. Mcarthyism took away. Afterwards, we gained ground. > > > > > It has been eroding since.
> > > > Additionally, if you're looking at "liberties" afforded to members of > > > > the military vs. overall liberties for the general public, you're > > > > trying to compare apples and oranges. As an army wife, I can tell you > > > > that there are MANY organizations, activities, etc., that military > > > > members are not permitted to engage in that would be "allowed" for the > > > > general public.
> > > > Plus, when talking about eroding liberties, perhaps it's not fully > > > > appropriate to compare to the 40s and 50s. I'd be more likely to > > > > compare liberties and freedoms to a decade ago rather than 60 years > > > > ago. I've rarely (if ever) heard someone say that we were more "free" > > > > in the 40s than we are now. I do, however, hear comparisons to 10-15 > > > > years prior (especially wrt law enforcement encroachment into personal > > > > liberties).
> > > > Erin- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > I would actually have to disagree with this Erin i think you have to > > > look to before the 30's. IMO folks had much more freedom because it > > > was hard to track them all over the place there where few police and > > > local moors where the rule instead of some moronic law made in a place > > > 50 miles away.
> > > IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many > > > freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could > > > be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a > > > fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching. these days the > > > brush runs from washington and spans the country so for any given > > > "crime" you get tried by some guy who has never lived in your > > > community, has no idea of what might have driven you to do the thing, > > > and the punishment these days is just stupid. putting old ron in jail > > > for brewing up 150 gallons of hootch has almost no effect; having a > > > whole town of church ladies cooning (keeping an eye on) old Ron sure > > > does. as a benifit to ron cutting down production from 150 to 100 gal > > > he now is on a first name bases with the local widow population.
> > > importing or exporting some extreamist idea was alot harder and things > > > didnt catch very quickly. say a new religion springs up in the east > > > and spreads like wild fire to the missippi, it most likly would not > > > make it to oregon and certenly not to alaska. the push to connect the > > > country is what has killed our freedoms
> > I think what you're illustrating is the danger of lumping "liberties" > > and "freedoms" into one broad category. As it's been mentioned > > elsethread, we gain, we lose, and regardless of one's political stance > > regarding personal liberties (or lack thereof) we could find arguments > > and evidence on either side :-)
> > Erin- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> point
> they however look kinda the same from the north slope and 300 miles > from shore all over the world. > its kinda hard to not have freedoms or liberties if you dont have > folks to take them from you.
I feel that we lost some in the Carter era (mostly telecom/Ham radio that I am familiar with), and a huge amount in the Patriot act. I am voting Democrat until 1) we get most of them back 2) the Dems do something equally stupid and nasty.
>>So perhaps our Liberties back in the late 40's and 50's was not so >>"open".. Have our liberties been expanded or contracted since early >>1950.. Interesting
>When I went through my Selective Service draft physical in 1967, we were given >a very similar (more extensive, I think it was three columns on a page in >small type) list. Someone complained that there was no way to read the whole >list in the brief time allowed. The sergeant in charge growled that "These are >all Communist front organizations, you know if you belong to one of them!"
>If I'd had more courage I would have replied (in my best Arkansas drawl) "Suh, >Ah had no idea that the Association of Georgia Klans was a Commie front!"
Hmm. They must have done away with it when I went in for mine (this was 1970). There WAS a paper that we had to sign - something about never having been a member of the Communist Party or advocating the overthrow of the US (as if someone might sign that. Um, no - not even for failing the draft physical. (I did notice that "physical" was somewhat a misnomer...) --
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:37:32 -0700 (PDT), Two meter troll
<eawis...@gmail.com> wrote: >IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many >freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could >be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a >fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching.
Not only that, but you were free to have your sheriff tell the coloreds, "Don't let the sun set on you in this town, niggah." And you were free to exclude Jews from your neighborhood. Oh, and of course you were free to chase godless heathens out of your area, too.
Want more? There was the freedom to die from polio or diabetes, or to be a pariah because you were epileptic. Oh, and the freedom to look down on someone who was still young but walked with a cane--he was obviously a somewhat useless 'crip'. And you were free to love anyone you wished--so long as they were of the opposite sex and the same skin shade.
Shall we discuss the freedom to dump poisons by the ton into the air and water? Had that freedom then, too.
All that said--I do see your point about big government vs local sensibility. There were a lot of good things lost from those times, but we can't forget the good changes, either.
-denny- -- "...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
Sean Cleary <seanearly...@juno.com> wrote in news:dadf3552-3c1e-4647-8b42- 73d1ffa96...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
> I can not remember if I had to sign such, likely did, certainally > background checked enough. > I had a Top Secret clearance. Likely as manager and as engineer that > Dad did too. > Under such a clearance, or if you desire such, your liberties are > restricted. But you are free to quit without going to jail or other > such.
> Sean
I had a Top Secret clearance also. Those who have never served would not believe the restrictions that imposes on you. Just the travel restictions alone drove me to frustration. Back in the 70s I wanted to visit Berlin... Not allowed. That was a wake up call.
>I have recently been going through family records and have found a >number of documents from my dad.. employment records, discharge from >the army etc..
>What is interesting is the number of times he was formally warned or >had to sign acknowledgment about certain groups.. At his discharge >there is a 3 page sheet listing organizations as Subversive, >Fascists, Communist and other categories. This particular document >was given to him to warn him away from joining these groups.
>A sample of the groups (there must be at least 300 listed) are from:
>the Communist Party, >American Christian Nationalist Party, >American Jewish Labor Council, >American League Against War and Fascism, >American Polish League - oh yeah this one is dangerous, >Columbians - that's right that's all it states - Columbians >Committee to Uphold the Bill of Rights >Congress of American Woman >Council of Greek Americans >German-American Republican League >Industrial Workers of the World >Harlem Trade Council >Michigan Civil Rights Federation >Michigan School of Social Science - michigan apparently is a hotbed of >Subversive activity >National Committee for Freedom of the Press >National Council of Americans of Croatian Descent - (there is at least >3 lines about Croats, must be bad group.) >National Negro Congress >Ku Klux Klan - get both sides on these 2 groups. >People's Radio Foundation >Polonia Society of the IWO >Sakura Kai >Samuel Adams School in Boston Mass >Santa Barbara Peace Forum >Ukranian-American Fraternal Union >Washington Bookshop Association >Yugoslav Seamen's Club >Yiddisher Kultur FArband
One thing to bear in mind is that while the *name* may sound innocuous enough, there's no telling--just from that name--what the group was actually doing.
Pulling a few at random and doing a bit of googling...
Yugoslav Seamen's Club "Primarily consisting of Croatian seamen and shipyard and dockworkers, the Club was a Communist-controlled front organization. It nevertheless achieved great importance in the Croatian-American community and, during World War 11, became one of the most vocal supporters- of Tito's Partisans." http://www.croatians.com/BIOGRAPHY-AMERICA-A-J.htm
So from a McCarthyist point of view, these *are* subversive groups, especially the last two.
-Chris Zakes Texas
We shall swim out to that brooding reef in the sea and dive down through black abysses to cyclopean and many-columned Y'ha-nthlei, and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory for ever.
<den...@TANSTAAFL.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:37:32 -0700 (PDT), Two meter troll
> <eawis...@gmail.com> wrote: > >IMO the ease of travel and the speed of communications has taken many > >freedoms away. at one time you could find communities that you could > >be safe walking the streets and the fella poaching a deer would get a > >fair shake if he actually had reasion for the poaching.
> Not only that, but you were free to have your sheriff tell the > coloreds, "Don't let the sun set on you in this town, niggah." And > you were free to exclude Jews from your neighborhood. Oh, and of > course you were free to chase godless heathens out of your area, too.
> Want more? There was the freedom to die from polio or diabetes, or to > be a pariah because you were epileptic. Oh, and the freedom to look > down on someone who was still young but walked with a cane--he was > obviously a somewhat useless 'crip'. And you were free to love anyone > you wished--so long as they were of the opposite sex and the same skin > shade.
> Shall we discuss the freedom to dump poisons by the ton into the air > and water? Had that freedom then, too.
> All that said--I do see your point about big government vs local > sensibility. There were a lot of good things lost from those times, > but we can't forget the good changes, either.
> -denny- > -- > "...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and > welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be > secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: > 'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put > right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
I have no argument with that. somtime between then and now there was a point when freedoms and liberties and fouls and haterids balanced. the problem with most of the sociaty we have today is no one (referring to social groups) is looking for real balance. every one has an agenda and thinks the ball needs to swing over here cause that wuold remove this thing i dont like. Me i want the bloody ball to be in the middle with as little swinging as possable. while the argument "conflict causes evolution" may be true. we could use a bit of getting used to an idea before we have to evolve again.
>On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT), an orbital mind-control >laser caused Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> to write:
[,,,]
>One thing to bear in mind is that while the *name* may sound innocuous >enough, there's no telling--just from that name--what the group was >actually doing.
>Pulling a few at random and doing a bit of googling...
Why would that be considered a bad thing? -- David No email replies please. So I'm right. Period. Anyone who believes different is retarded. (Stolen from JJRussell, alt.funnytown) (Originally posted by Jami JoAnne in alt.folklore.urban)
>>There WAS a paper that we had to sign - something about >>never having been a member of the Communist Party or advocating the >>overthrow of the US
>"Do you favor the overthrow of the US government by force or violence?" >"Well... I guess if I have to choose, I'd say force!"
Alternate answer: "Only if threats don't work". -- There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can result in a fully-depreciated one.
On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:54:26 -0500, Chris Zakes <donti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>So from a McCarthyist point of view, these *are* subversive groups, >especially the last two.
From a McCarthyist pov, the DAR was a subversive group.
-denny- -- "...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
<lemmiwi...@southparkelem.edu> wrote: >Sean Cleary <seanearly...@juno.com> wrote in news:dadf3552-3c1e-4647-8b42- >73d1ffa96...@a17g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
>> I can not remember if I had to sign such, likely did, certainally >> background checked enough. >> I had a Top Secret clearance. Likely as manager and as engineer that >> Dad did too. >> Under such a clearance, or if you desire such, your liberties are >> restricted. But you are free to quit without going to jail or other >> such.
>> Sean
>I had a Top Secret clearance also. Those who have never served would not >believe the restrictions that imposes on you. Just the travel restictions >alone drove me to frustration. Back in the 70s I wanted to visit Berlin... >Not allowed. That was a wake up call.
Yeah. My brother is--or was, for many years (he's retired)--one of the very top guys anywhere when it came to satellite guidance and control. There was--in the 70s, I think--a very top-level scientific conference involving matters of that sort. His invitation was accompanied by a not-at-all-subtle "suggestion" that his best choice was to politely decline.
Conference was in Moscow. (not Idaho)
-denny- -- "...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
>On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:54:26 -0500, Chris Zakes <donti...@gmail.com> >typed furiously:
>>On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:42:48 -0700 (PDT), an orbital mind-control >>laser caused Moira <moi...@abraxasgroup.net> to write:
>[,,,]
>>One thing to bear in mind is that while the *name* may sound innocuous >>enough, there's no telling--just from that name--what the group was >>actually doing.
>>Pulling a few at random and doing a bit of googling...
Well, if you owe a 'sponsor-type' debt to Big Broadcasting...
-denny- -- "...our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country--when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'" - Carl Schurz, in 1899
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