The Socialists Runneth Amok UPDATE
Noel Lynne Figart
"Mike, would you please give me something calming?" she asks tightly.
Mike build a Long Island Iced tea for her and silently sets it on the
bar.
"I took Samuel to see a neurologist today."
When no more information is forthcoming, Mike nods.
Noel drums her fingers on the bartop. "It is the professional opinion
of the neurologist that my son has no overt neurological problems."
"And this upsets you?" Mike asks.
"No," Noel says softly. "I am extremely relieved. However, I am
terribly, terribly frightened that there are children with no
neurological problems that have been labeled autistic in my town."
"Do you plan to do anything about it?"
Noel stares into her drink and murmurs. "I don't know. I just don't
know. It frightens me to think of how many lives are being screwed
up. I think these people have some sort of agenda. I'm considering a
letter to the editor, but frankly I am so angry right now that I want
revenge. Not for Samuel. He was lucky enough to have a Mommy who is
a researcher at heart.
"But I am beginning to be scared. I want to write a letter to the
editor about this. If I do, I will have to be prepared NOT to send my
son to public school. They'd have it in for him because of me."
Noel puts her head in her hands. "I know that there's a price for
everything. But I feel it is wrong to remain silent about this."
_________________
Noel, Axe of the Babs, Mum to the Genius in the High Chair,
and She who Truly Groks Coffee
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
AOL Instant Messenger: NoelFigart
ICQ # 3479805
Rules for Evil Overlords
34. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.
Randolph Fritz
>"But I am beginning to be scared. I want to write a letter to the
>editor about this. If I do, I will have to be prepared NOT to send my
>son to public school. They'd have it in for him because of me."
"Noel, it may not be as bad as all that--schools are not monolithic
blocks. It's quite possible there are teachers and parents who are
just as unhappy with the over-diagnosis as you are and who simply have
not spoken up.
"If you want to make change, let me suggest that you do some homework
first. Find out more about this, and about the power structure within
the schools. A simple complaint to the right people may stop this.
If not, well, it's amazingly easy to get elected to a school board.
You and a few friends could probably completely take over, if you
wanted to. And I'm sure there are other possibilities I haven't even
considered.
"So do some homework--I think there are more choices than you have
considered."
Randolph
Rivka
Noel Lynne Figart wrote in message
<3703ba26...@news.erols.com>...
>"No," Noel says softly. "I am extremely relieved. However, I am
>terribly, terribly frightened that there are children with no
>neurological problems that have been labeled autistic in my town."
Rivka looks a trifle puzzled. "Noel, neurological abnormalities are
common in autistic children, but there isn't any characteristic
pattern of neurological findings that can be used to diagnose autism.
There are autistic children whose EEGs and CAT scans are normal. More
and more, the symptoms of autism are being described as the 'final
common pathway' for a number of different types of brain pathology...
not all of which can be detected by current neurological tests.
"A child psychologist would be better suited to diagnose autism or
Asperger's syndrome than a neurologist, actually, although it's
certainly a good sign that Samuel appears to be neurologically normal.
"What you're dealing with here sounds really scary. If there's
anything I can do to help - say, interpreting psychological
doublespeak - please let me know. I'd be glad to give you whatever
support I can. It must be terribly difficult to be concerned about
your son's development and, at the same time, to feel that you can't
trust the people who are evaluating him."
Little white letters scroll across the air in front of Rivka: "Rivka
is not a licensed psychologist. She does, however, know a fair amount
about autism."
--
Rivka is ri...@iowacity.net and a fourth-year graduate student in
clinical psych, and was recently described as "Rebecca of Sunnybrook
Farm fallen in with bad companions."
M Blaze Miskulin
> "Noel, it may not be as bad as all that--schools are not monolithic
> blocks. It's quite possible there are teachers and parents who are
> just as unhappy with the over-diagnosis as you are and who simply have
> not spoken up.
A lot on this topic (especially in the original thread) has been said
about the school systems and the way they handle things. I've not heard
anyone speaking from the side of the schools.
I just started teaching this year (as a substitute) in two school
systems; one was the system from which I graduated. I was amazed at the
way things were when I got there. The office has a Rubbermaid (tm)
container (about 2'x1'x1') filled with medicines that have to be given
out each day. The number of violent, disruptive, and undisciplined kids
is far greater than when I was in school (about 15 years ago, give or
take a few). The police are called to the school on an almost daily
basis. In the first semester of the year, there were 3 expulsions and
another one pending. And this is all in a town of only 2,000. The
middle school (grades 5-8) has an enrollment of around 500.
One student, while I was there went "postal". He became violent,
screamed at such a volume and intensity that he lost his voice in about
5 minutes. His voice was audible to a parent on the other end of a
phone line in the office (the doors were closed). In front of a full
cafeteria he called the principle a "fucking bitch". He then barricaded
himself in a room and required the police to get him out. When his
mother was brought in to discuss the situation, and was informed of what
the boy said to the principle, her response (directly to the principle)
was "Well, are you?"
Much to my suprise, the teachers informed me that this is not too
unusual. The number of children who have no concept of discipline, no
respect for authority, and no support at home is amazing. Remember,
this isn't an inner city, this is a small farming community in the
mid-west.
And yet, as I sit in the teachers' lounge, I listen to conversations
about how to deal with these kids, how to get them interested, and how
to teach them. The teachers really *do* care about the kids. They do
want what is best for the kids. And they welcome discussion and
interest from parents in regards to the welfare and progress of the
kids. Far too many parents take no interest in the education of their
children ("that's what the schools are for, darn it.")
While I know from your comments (and the breif time I've met you) that
you are not one of those, the school system may not. Before lashing out
and condemning the entire system, take some time to talk to the actual
teachers. It may be that Samuel will need a bit of special tutoring in
verbal skills for a brief time, or perhaps just a little extra work at
home. Or, it may all disappear when he becomes part of a social group
and has a reason to learn better skills (you have to have good verbal
skills to taunt the little girls :)
Just because one individual overstepped his bounds and made a snap
diagnosis, it does not negate the work and understanding of the rest of
the system. Take some time to cool down, then ask some questions. What
does special education entail? is it a full-time thing or just a class a
day? If he is enrolled in these classes, can he be switched easily to
regular classes when his skills develope? Does the special ed teacher
think that he even needs the classes? (the teacher, having more direct
experience with the kids may have a better idea of what is appropriate).
Would his needs be better served in a regular class where he has peer
support and competition to encourage him? And at 4 years old, is this
really the time to be making these decisions?
The fact that you *are* so concerned about what the system says, and are
willing to question these decisions, says a lot about you as a parent.
All of it good.
Good luck.
--
Brother Blaze
The Unintentional Monk
=========
http://members.aol.com/~brblaze
Larisa Migachyov
>
> Noel stares into her drink and murmurs. "I don't know. I just don't
> know. It frightens me to think of how many lives are being screwed
> up. I think these people have some sort of agenda. I'm considering a
> letter to the editor, but frankly I am so angry right now that I want
> revenge. Not for Samuel. He was lucky enough to have a Mommy who is
> a researcher at heart.
>
> editor about this. If I do, I will have to be prepared NOT to send my
> son to public school. They'd have it in for him because of me."
>
> everything. But I feel it is wrong to remain silent about this."
Noel, I admire your courage in even considering this. The important
thing, though, is that there is nothing wrong with your son; the rest of
it is a terrible thing, but not a tragedy. Whatever you end up doing
about the situation, I wish you and your son well.
Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
choices. So you aren't losing much.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
----------------------------------------------------------
They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.
Markku Tuovinen
M Blaze Miskulin kirjoitti viestissä <37042615...@chorus.net>...
[clip]
:...was informed of what
:the boy said to the principle, her response (directly to the principle)
:was "Well, are you?"
:
:Much to my suprise, the teachers informed me that this is not too
:unusual. The number of children who have no concept of discipline, no
:respect for authority, and no support at home is amazing. Remember,
:this isn't an inner city, this is a small farming community in the
:mid-west.
:
:And yet, as I sit in the teachers' lounge, I listen to conversations
:about how to deal with these kids, how to get them interested, and how
:to teach them. The teachers really *do* care about the kids. They do
:want what is best for the kids. And they welcome discussion and
:interest from parents in regards to the welfare and progress of the
:kids. Far too many parents take no interest in the education of their
:children ("that's what the schools are for, darn it.")
Markku strolls in, gets an Apfelschorle from Mike, and opens his mouth:
"No kidding. If you ask me, your story is a good example of the "value
vacuum" that seems to ail the Western culture nowadays. In the days of yore
the religion was an unquestionable authority (except to people who think
things through for themselves), and it gave explicit values to people, who
can't arrive to a tenable solution by themselves. And it wasn't too shabby
a set, although it was easy to corrupt to less than nice ends...
"It's great that the oppression of religion has eased, but in addition to
gaining, we have also lost that guide. And as these people, who can't think
for themselves seem to be the majority, we've clearly become a nation of
aimless people (this holds true for Finland as well as for America) who
just stumble through life the best they can and seize the easiest, simplest
set of rules they can find: untempered self-interest. Then they raise (if
you can say that) children who have even less of a notion of any values, or
who take the untempered self-interest to heart. And when you get a
second-generation valueless person who's not intelligent enough to see the
long-term effects of untempered self-interest, you get a lot of trouble."
M Blaze Miskulin
[snip]
> Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> choices. So you aren't losing much.
That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
disagree.
First off, private schools vary greatly--from strict parochial to
"alternative" liberal. To lump them all together is far too great of a
generalization to mean anything.
Secondly, private schools which are stricter (especially parochial) can
hamper the creative nature and expression of a student who does not fit
well into a highly structured system. Green hair and leather jackets
are a harmless way for kids to assert their independence. Take those
options away and other, less visible, ways can take their place.
Cushy classrooms and well-pressed uniforms do not mean a child is
getting an education which is appropriate to his needs.
Homeschooling deprives the child of social interaction, peer competition
and support, extra-curricular activities, and a wide range of alternate
viewpoints and information. This can deprive the student of an unknown
list of options in their life (I never would have entered the field I'm
in if I hadn't been exposed to it in school).
This is *not* to say that either of these options are wrong. It only
shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
and temperment of the child.
Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
the involvement of the parents.
LePheaux
>Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
>given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
>public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
>refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
>be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
>vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
>give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
>knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
>education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
>the involvement of the parents.
>
>
>--
> Brother Blaze
<<<>>>>
I believe that the generalization was about the amount of education
Received by students,in Public schools Vs.private.
year after year, the Scores show a higher level of learning, in Private .
over public.
agreed that parents of private students need to supplement Social
atmosphere, with Sports or other extracurricular activities.
The big Plus+. the odds of a private student being shot by a fellow student
are much lower.
wan...@jps.net
M Blaze Miskulin <brb...@chorus.net> wrote:
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > choices. So you aren't losing much.
>
> That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> disagree.
>
> First off, private schools vary greatly--from strict parochial to
> "alternative" liberal. To lump them all together is far too great of a
> generalization to mean anything.
>
> Secondly, private schools which are stricter (especially parochial) can
> hamper the creative nature and expression of a student who does not fit
> well into a highly structured system. Green hair and leather jackets
> are a harmless way for kids to assert their independence. Take those
> options away and other, less visible, ways can take their place.
>
> Cushy classrooms and well-pressed uniforms do not mean a child is
> getting an education which is appropriate to his needs.
>
> Homeschooling deprives the child of social interaction, peer competition
> and support, extra-curricular activities,
and a wide range of alternate
> viewpoints and information.
Do you think that homeschooled children stay in little cocoons and never talk
to anyone else? Even if it were true, why is it bad to have parents be the
most important influence on their children's lives when they are young, so
they can tell truth from garbage when they are older?
Usually I just let people rant on in their ignorance, but this socialization
thing is such a blatent (blatant??) urban legend I just couldn't let it go.
Only those who are ignorant of homeschoolers can state with such confidence
that homeschooled children are deprived of social interaction. That would
mean that, first of all, there's no value in a child interacting with his
parents and siblings almost continuously, all day long. These are the people
who care about each other and have vested interests in working out the
problems that occur when people work together on a daily basis -- not unlike
what we do in the workplace, or at church, or at any other adult activity.
Interacting with people of different ages requires much more maturity than
interacting with people who are at the same level of immaturity, and results
in a better ability to work with all sorts of people.
Peer competition? Who said that was important? What does it even mean? Peer
*support*? Kids are more likely to be abused, emotionally as well as
physically, by their peers.
"Extra-curricular" activities? Of course there's no "extra" curricular
activity, since homeschoolers count everything as part of their children's
education. My own children did 4-H, marching band, Camp Fire, and Highland
dancing for many years. We wouldn't have done these things if they'd been in
school, since I felt that they needed time at home to rest from the day at
school, and to do their homework.
This can deprive the student of an unknown
> list of options in their life (I never would have entered the field I'm
> in if I hadn't been exposed to it in school).
Homeschooled children do not lack for "lists of options" in their lives. On
the contrary, homeschooled children have such maturity that they are more
than able to research their areas of interest, and know what they want to be
their life's work.
Hmph.
Ellie
>
> This is *not* to say that either of these options are wrong. It only
> shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
> on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
> and temperment of the child.
>
> Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
> given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
> public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
> refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
> be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
> vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
> give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
> knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
> education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
> the involvement of the parents.
>
> --
> Brother Blaze
> The Unintentional Monk
> =========
> http://members.aol.com/~brblaze
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Donna Leaf
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > choices. So you aren't losing much.
>
> That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> disagree.
Moi aussi! Yo tambien! Ich auch! Me, too!
{snippage occurs}
> Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
> given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
> public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
> refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
> be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
> vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
> give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
> knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
> education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
> the involvement of the parents.
>
>
>
>
As the product of eight years of parochial school (perhaps I should say
the *survivor*), I made a conscious decision to send my children to public
school. I can say a hearty *yea, verily* to everything Brother Blaze
points out, especially the last sentence of the paragraph quoted above.
What with intra- and interdistrict waivers, mandated
racial/ethnic/cultural balancing of school populations, etc., etc., public
schools (at least here in California) have had to become more competitive
to draw sufficient student populations. Our own district has
several'magnet' schools (dedicated to various special programs) that have
become so popular admission to them has had to be by lottery for the last
several years. Prior to that, admission was on a first-come, first-served
basis. To get our daughter into the bilingual immersion magnet, my husband
literally camped out at the school district office the night before
registration - along with several hundred other parents, all trying to get
their children into one or another of the magnet schools (besides the
bilingual program, there are two Montessori programs and a'basic
academics' program - though why anyone would want that kind of limited
approach, I don't know -oops, that could turn into a rant, so let's not go
there)
'Tennyrate, this ties in with what I was saying in another thread
regarding acquisition of a second language. The parents of the children at
my kids's school are a dedicated group of people.any of us have to make
special arrangements to get the kids to school (no busing); many of the
native Spanish speaking children have parents who come from countries
where a basic education is a privilege, not a right, and they truly value
what their children are receiving and show their support in whatever way
they can. We all turned out in great numbers to try to fight the idiotic
prop. 227; now, we are mobilized to try to find a way to be exempted from
it. (Personally, I think ron unz {lower case intentional) ought to
be...no-o-o-, let's not go *there*, either...)
The bottom line is, education is only as good as the resources committed
to it - and that includes parent involvement and teacher dedication as
much as financial resources. When I went to parochial school (30 - 40
years ago), we had far less financial resources than the public schools
and were massively overcrowded as well (60 -65 students to a single
classroom); there were 'social promotions' (kids for whom a 'D' was an
outstanding accomplishment were promoted along with the rest of their
grade - I often wonder what happened when they got to high school),
parents ran the phys ed program, conformity was the rule, and forget
foreign language instruction, lab sciences, instrumental music or anything
outside the basics of math, English, history, etc. until 9th grade
(freshman year of H.S.)
Oops - this turned into a rant after all...it's just that primary
education is *my* hot button.
Donna
(p&e)
/\ I'm in search of myself -- have you seen me lately? /\
Larisa Migachyov
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > choices. So you aren't losing much.
>
> That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> disagree.
Well, I agree that there are awful private schools and terrible homeschooling
environments. However, I have been a tutor for 4 years, and most of the
students who came to me from public schools were not getting much of an
education. A 7th grader was still doing pre-algebra; and it was very badly
taught. A 11th grader was taking calculus, but did not know how to add
fractions, let alone algebra or trigonometry. And these weren't stupid kids,
and they weren't the worst in their class. The 11th grader was getting A's.
As far as mathematics education goes, the kids waste a lot of time in elementary
school doing "projects" instead of learning the basic concepts. Instead of
learning the multiplication table, they draw posters on 'How I would spend
$1,000,000'. Is this mathematics?
The SAT tests indicate the level of mathematics that kids are expected to learn
in 12 years of public school education. I have to admit that that level is
rather pitiful. And the fact that many high school seniors can't even handle
*that* is a frightening one. I forget what the average SAT score is; but I do
know that a 4th grade student of mine was doing SAT problems with ease.
> Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
> given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
> public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
> refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
> be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
> vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
> give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
> knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
> education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
> the involvement of the parents.
Oh, no argument there. Whether the school is public or private, the parents
need to be involved in their child's education. However, money is not the
problem. Public schools spend more per student than private schools; but the
money does not go to the teachers or to buy textbooks or supplies. There are
many bureaucrats feeding off the public school system, and they get the money.
And it is possible to get a good education even from a public school; but
you have to do all the work of finding out about it yourself. Not just all the
schoolwork; but also all the administrative nonsense of fighting to get into an
honors class, convincing the teachers to let you into the AP system, etc. You
have to fight for your education; and not many students are well-suited for such
a struggle. If they have lots of support from their parents, they will find it
easier; but otherwise, they will never get the education that they deserve.
Rebecca Schoenberg
: I believe that the generalization was about the amount of education
: Received by students,in Public schools Vs.private.
: year after year, the Scores show a higher level of learning, in Private .
: over public.
Banshee raises an eyebrow at LePheaux. "I don't know how else to say this,
but scores don't mean jack. If it's grades you're talking about, they can
be seriously inflated to show a higher average - what earns you an A in one
school could be barely B- material in another. And standardized tests don't
test understanding, they test your ability to take standardized tests.
How much you actually know and retain and can put to practical use doesn't
enter into it at all.
"I've taken more standardized tests than I could ever want to. And I've
seen schools here concern over The Scores was the most important thing.
They didn't teach their students what they needed to know for life, they
specifically taught to pass the tests. And IMHO, high school isn't SAT
Prep School - there's a lot more that you should be getting out of it than
how to fill in bubbles in pretty patterns.
"Public schools aren't all horrible. Some of us enjoyed the experience,
got good grades, learned a lot, and went on to do well in secondary
education and achieve our lifelong goals inspite of what was evidently
supposed to be a hampering education."
-banshee, who kicks butt on standardized tests by virtue of way too
much experience
Rebecca Schoenberg
: Well, I agree that there are awful private schools and terrible homeschooling
: environments. However, I have been a tutor for 4 years, and most of the
: students who came to me from public schools were not getting much of an
: education. A 7th grader was still doing pre-algebra; and it was very badly
: taught. A 11th grader was taking calculus, but did not know how to add
: fractions, let alone algebra or trigonometry. And these weren't stupid kids,
: and they weren't the worst in their class. The 11th grader was getting A's.
"Is there any chance that this could be a regional situation? Because in my
experience, the public schools that my sister and I attended were a lot
farther ahead in education than that. It could just be that the public schools
in your area are less than stellar, and you're generalizing from that to
condemnation of all public schools.
: As far as mathematics education goes, the kids waste a lot of time in
: elementary school doing "projects" instead of learning the basic concepts.
: Instead of learning the multiplication table, they draw posters on 'How I
: would spend $1,000,000'. Is this mathematics?
"Yes, it is. Not everyone learns the same way. Rote memorization can work
for some people, others learn by doing and by applying what they've learned.
It's possible to memorize something perfectly, be able to recite it backwards
and forwards and sideways, and still not *understand* what it means. Projects
allow students to see how the skills they've memorized function in the real
world, outside of the isolation-bubble that is the classroom. Not all projects
are wastes of time - they can enhance learning, and more importantly in some
ways, they can keep the students interested in learning.
: The SAT tests indicate the level of mathematics that kids are expected to
: learn in 12 years of public school education. I have to admit that that
: level is rather pitiful.
"Why is it pitiful, if you don't mind my asking? How much math do you think
people should be expected to know, and why? I agree heartily that basic
mathematical skills are extremely important, and that it's important to know
the basics of algebra and geometry and calculus, but why would it be important
for a graduating high school student to know more than that? Specialization
beyond that is what college is for. And to be perfectly honest, I manage to
function just fine in a scientific field with the basic math skills from
high school, plus one Intro to Calc class in college....
: And it is possible to get a good education even from a public school; but
: you have to do all the work of finding out about it yourself. Not just all
: the schoolwork; but also all the administrative nonsense of fighting to get
: into an honors class, convincing the teachers to let you into the AP system,
: etc.
"Fighting? I think it's just that you've been exposed to some really unusually
bad public schools. In all the schools I know and have attended, getting into
AP classes was just a matter of circling them on the list of classes that was
given to all students when it was time to choose what classes you were going
to take that year. As for honors classes, you were assigned to them coming in
if your grades were good enough, and you could move up to them on request if
you started in a lower track and did well. No fighting, or struggling, or
suffering, or hiding of information from students.
"There are bad public schools out there - but there are also bad private
schools and bad homeschoolers. That doesn't mean they're all terrible,
though."
-banshee, public school graduate and proud of it
Larisa Migachyov
> Larisa Migachyov <l...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
> : Well, I agree that there are awful private schools and terrible homeschooling
> : environments. However, I have been a tutor for 4 years, and most of the
> : students who came to me from public schools were not getting much of an
> : education. A 7th grader was still doing pre-algebra; and it was very badly
> : taught. A 11th grader was taking calculus, but did not know how to add
> : fractions, let alone algebra or trigonometry. And these weren't stupid kids,
> : and they weren't the worst in their class. The 11th grader was getting A's.
>
> "Is there any chance that this could be a regional situation? Because in my
> experience, the public schools that my sister and I attended were a lot
> farther ahead in education than that. It could just be that the public schools
> in your area are less than stellar, and you're generalizing from that to
> condemnation of all public schools.
I taught kids in MN. I think that public schools in MN are pretty good,
compared to the rest of the nation; but I'm not sure. You could be right,
I guess.
> : As far as mathematics education goes, the kids waste a lot of time in
> : elementary school doing "projects" instead of learning the basic concepts.
> : Instead of learning the multiplication table, they draw posters on 'How I
> : would spend $1,000,000'. Is this mathematics?
>
> "Yes, it is. Not everyone learns the same way. Rote memorization can work
> for some people, others learn by doing and by applying what they've learned.
> It's possible to memorize something perfectly, be able to recite it backwards
> and forwards and sideways, and still not *understand* what it means. Projects
> allow students to see how the skills they've memorized function in the real
> world, outside of the isolation-bubble that is the classroom. Not all projects
> are wastes of time - they can enhance learning, and more importantly in some
> ways, they can keep the students interested in learning.
Well, but they don't have the students memorize the skills. And whatever
one's learning style, one should, in some way, know the multiplication
table. I've seen kids whose teachers don't require them to memorize the
multiplication table; and they can't advance any further. Yes, if I ask
such a kid to multiply 6 by 7, he will get it - eventually; but where will
such a kid be when he has to multiply 133456 by 3485747? How long will it
take if the multiplication table is not memorized? Or where will this kid
be when he has to work with fractions and find the common denominator of
two fractions? Both understanding *and* memorization are essential in
mathematics.
The elementary school years are the best time for learning new skills.
I am not a psychologist, but I believe that the earlier skills are
learned, the better they are retained. And it is precisely these years
that are very underutilized in public (or private) American schools. It
does not take a year to learn to multiply numbers; it takes 3 months at
most. It does not take 2 years to learn to add and subtract. And the
reason that it takes so long is the fact that kids are doing projects and
other things that do not relate in any way to mathematics. Whatever the
benefit of projects, it should not take that long to learn arithmetic.
> : The SAT tests indicate the level of mathematics that kids are expected to
> : learn in 12 years of public school education. I have to admit that that
> : level is rather pitiful.
>
> "Why is it pitiful, if you don't mind my asking? How much math do you think
> people should be expected to know, and why? I agree heartily that basic
> mathematical skills are extremely important, and that it's important to know
> the basics of algebra and geometry and calculus, but why would it be important
> for a graduating high school student to know more than that? Specialization
> beyond that is what college is for. And to be perfectly honest, I manage to
> function just fine in a scientific field with the basic math skills from
> high school, plus one Intro to Calc class in college....
I agree that most people don't need to know math beyond algebra. However,
what about those who do? Suppose a kid wants to be an engineer or a
physicist. College only teaches calculus and beyond; nobody is going to
help this kid learn the trigonometry that he didn't learn in school. So,
at least one door of opportunity is closed for him.
Besides, if we are only talking about what one *needs* to function, aren't
things like chemistry or biology even more useless for someone who is not
going to be a chemist or a biologist? I know that I never needed that
year of high school chemistry; but I am glad I took it, just as I am glad
that I took history, music, literature, and other such things. School is
supposed to enrich us.
> : And it is possible to get a good education even from a public school; but
> : you have to do all the work of finding out about it yourself. Not just all
> : the schoolwork; but also all the administrative nonsense of fighting to get
> : into an honors class, convincing the teachers to let you into the AP system,
> : etc.
>
> "Fighting? I think it's just that you've been exposed to some really unusually
> bad public schools. In all the schools I know and have attended, getting into
> AP classes was just a matter of circling them on the list of classes that was
> given to all students when it was time to choose what classes you were going
> to take that year. As for honors classes, you were assigned to them coming in
> if your grades were good enough, and you could move up to them on request if
> you started in a lower track and did well. No fighting, or struggling, or
> suffering, or hiding of information from students.
>
> "There are bad public schools out there - but there are also bad private
> schools and bad homeschoolers. That doesn't mean they're all terrible,
> though."
Well, perhaps the public schools in my area were unusually horrible.
M Blaze Miskulin
>
> Do you think that homeschooled children stay in little cocoons and never talk
> to anyone else? Even if it were true, why is it bad to have parents be the
> most important influence on their children's lives when they are young, so
> they can tell truth from garbage when they are older?
It is not bad to have parents be the most important influence in a
child's life. It is (IMO) bad for the the parents to be the only
authoritative influence in a child's life. And who says that only a
parent can teach what is "garbage" and what is not? I can think of
several kids I went to school with who recieved more moral instruction
at school than they ever did at home (anecdotal, I know, but still shows
a point).
Sending a child to school does *not* negate the influence of parents. I
can attest to that personally. It *does* expose the child to a much
wider range of opinions and viewpoints. The child can then take those
opinions home and discuss them, or discard them outright. OR, he can
look at them and decide that perhaps they have some value--even if they
conflict with those of his parents. This is part of becoming an
individual; forming one's own opinions based on a wide range of
information and conflicting opinions.
> Usually I just let people rant on in their ignorance, but this socialization
> thing is such a blatent (blatant??) urban legend I just couldn't let it go.
> Only those who are ignorant of homeschoolers can state with such confidence
> that homeschooled children are deprived of social interaction.
First off, I am *not* ignorant of the situation. While I do not
homeschool my children (as I don't have any yet) I *have* talked at
length to several friends and co-workers who *do* homeschool their
children. The majority of them have expressed their concerns about the
social interaction of their children. They have expressed their
concerns about their children not having time away from their parents,
and access to information and opinions of teachers other than
themselves.
> That would
> mean that, first of all, there's no value in a child interacting with his
> parents and siblings almost continuously, all day long.
It means no such thing. It simply means that there is *greater* value
in exposing a child to a wider array of people and opinions.
> These are the people
> who care about each other and have vested interests in working out the
> problems that occur when people work together on a daily basis -- not unlike
> what we do in the workplace, or at church, or at any other adult activity.
And teachers in a public school don't have any interest in working out
these problems? A child at school is the same as an adult at work. The
teachers and students have a very vested interest in working out the
problems they encounter--and encouraging each other in their
successes--Not unlike what we do in the workplace, or at church, or at
any other adult activity.
> Interacting with people of different ages requires much more maturity than
> interacting with people who are at the same level of immaturity, and results
> in a better ability to work with all sorts of people.
At school, a child interacts with children of several age and maturity
levels (the range depending on the make-up of the school), as well as
with adults (teachers, adminitration, custodians, & staff). In my local
school, there are even retired people who volunteer as teachers'
aides. So the children get the same range of ages to interact
with--but more individuals.
> Peer competition? Who said that was important? What does it even mean? Peer
> *support*? Kids are more likely to be abused, emotionally as well as
> physically, by their peers.
I say peer competition is important. (I'm not an expert, but it's my
view. If you want, I'll look for professional opinions on it.)
What does it mean? Well, it would mean competing against one's peers.
It means learning that in the real world people compete against each
other. It means having an incentive to do better. It means having a
way to judge how well you're doing. It means learning how to win
graciously and lose graciously.
The world of the adult--the world we are supposedly training these
children for--is based on competition with one's peers. Competition for
jobs, competition for recognition, promotion, even companionship.
That's the way the world works. Protecting or removing a child from a
competetive atmosphere (IMO) prevents that child from learning how to
deal with it.
Peer supprt. Yes. It exists.
"Kids are more likely to be abused, emotionally as well as physically,
by their peers."
Really? So friendships don't form? Kids don't compliment other kids?
Don't encourage them to work at things? Arent' concerned when a child
is sad or hurt? Don't console or try to help? Pardon me, but
Bullshit. All through school, kids encourage other kids; be it in
sports, art, music, or other tasks. Bullies and abusive students are
not the norm. They are the exception. Or maybe my school was just a
freak of nature. I wasn't even in any of the popular cliques, and I got
encouragement from the jocks, the druggies, the "social elite", and the
band geeks. When they needed art work, they came to me. They knew I
was the best artist in the class. That's encouragement. I complimented
the jocks when they won (and I don't even like sports).
> Homeschooled children do not lack for "lists of options" in their lives. On
> the contrary, homeschooled children have such maturity that they are more
> than able to research their areas of interest, and know what they want to be
> their life's work.
>
> Hmph.
So. All home-schooled children are have such maturity? Really? So the
homeschooled girl I know who is a manipulative liar doesn't count? And
no one in public school has maturity? Sorry, I don't buy it.
As for the list of options: Do you, as a parent and homeschooler,
actually believe that you have as much experience and information to
offer as an entire school full of teachers? That you have the same
amount of expertise in all the areas as a school full of teachers? Have
you done all the things that they have done? Do you know all the
possibilities that they know? Do you have all the connections and
friends that they have? I don't think so. A child can't research
something if they don't know it exists. In my own case, if I hadn't
walked through the gym one night, I never would have gotten into
theatre. My parents never would have had the opportunity to mount a
major musical, and there was no community theatre in my town then. In
addition, I was a "gifted" student. I was correcting my parents when I
was in grade school. I had more knowledge of science then than they
did. There would have been no way that they could have kept up with me,
much less taught me and offered me all the things that the public school
could.
Hmmph!
> > This is *not* to say that either of these options are wrong. It only
> > shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
> > on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
> > and temperment of the child.
Now....if you'll read the paragraph above (which I wrote) once again....
Notice that first line. And the last. I did *NOT* say that
homeschooling is wrong. I said that it is not *always* and
*automatically* superior to public schooling. Each path--public,
private, and home--has its advantages and disadvantages. No one of them
is automatically better or worse than the others. It depends on several
factors. I just pointed out a few to make my point.
Kirsten M. Berry
sounded:
}To get our daughter into the bilingual immersion magnet, my husband
}literally camped out at the school district office the night before
}registration - along with several hundred other parents, all trying to get
}their children into one or another of the magnet schools (besides the
}bilingual program, there are two Montessori programs and a'basic
}academics' program - though why anyone would want that kind of limited
}approach, I don't know -oops, that could turn into a rant, so let's not go
}there)
"...and let's not forget the hoops you jumped through to get your
*previous* generation of kids into magnet programs," the MouseWench
reminds her mother. "My brother, S'fan, and I are 1/8 Native American
on our father's side. The wording in those early post-Prop. 13 days
was sufficiently vague that we traded on this for several years -
despite the fact that we didn't even KNOW our specific tribal heritage
until after we'd both graduated high school."
K`shandra
who at least had high cheekbones and a predilection for wearing her
hair in braids....
--
Kirsten M. Berry ki...@hooked.net K`shandra on IRC
MouseWench, Samurai Webmistress and Techno-Dyke at Large
"I'm going to need a towel after this; I seem to be getting sarcasm
all over the floor." -Eleri, in alt.callahans
LePheaux
>
>Banshee raises an eyebrow at LePheaux. "I don't know how else to say this,
>but scores don't mean jack. If it's grades you're talking about, they can
>be seriously inflated to show a higher average - what earns you an A in one
>school could be barely B- material in another. And standardized tests
don't
>test understanding, they test your ability to take standardized tests.
>How much you actually know and retain and can put to practical use doesn't
>enter into it at all.
>"Public schools aren't all horrible. Some of us enjoyed the experience,
>got good grades, learned a lot, and went on to do well in secondary
>education and achieve our lifelong goals inspite of what was evidently
>supposed to be a hampering education."
<<<<>>>>>
I believe I said that the level of learning was higher in Private, over
Public.
AND IT IS.
The fact that I have been to so many Schools, Private , Public, specialized,
I would have a pretty good idea.
from Alaska to Florida. including Ca.
my two brothers can add on Ark. and WA.
A Short Story.
I started out my school years in the State of WA. Preschool and
Kindergarten.
then Moved to Alaska, and attended three years of public schools in
Anchorage.
Starting the fourth Grade in a large Christian Private School, using the
Pace program.
by the 7 Th... grade I had already achieved a complete Public school
Education, \
as far as tests go.
and had completed the Pace program. well almost. at some point there at the
end of 7th. grade I had a dawning of what was next.
No way not gonna do Bible college.
so after several attempts at getting kicked out.
Finally success. and of to Public Jr...high. in Anchorage,
one of the better schools systems due to the extra oil money.
made it through the 9th. grade at Service-Hanshew.
and was kicked out unintentionally.
Off to SAVE.High school, Far from religious, a place for disturbed students,
with Learning Problems.
Got kicked from that one for lack of participation. even the folx grinned
at that one.
moved to Florida that Dec.
and back into Public schools. (Level way down).
Dropped out at 16, was just a couple of months after Bay High in Panama
City.
got into more trouble, and the Judge said school or work.
Well I was already doing Drywall, and the Judge said Fine Keep working,
or back to school. and not a Public one at that,he said with an<EG>
Huh, was the Look. didn't ask anymore about it.
found out soon enough. When Winter strikes the Panhandle. the work goes
south.
and me off to P.C.M.I.
Another school geared at passing tests, mainly the GED.
Within two days they had me helping out as an teachers aid.
the next month took the test and set the Tri-State record.
<Alabama/Florida/Georgia>
Which earned a full boat Scholarship.
So in all fairness, public schools vary too extremes, all over the Country.
and learning how to pass tests, is only one part of the differences. between
Public and Private.
The main thing I see in Public schools, is bad attitudes and shitloads of
peer-pressure. doing drugs and trying to be something else, then what you
really are.
so when thinking of your Childs education , just what do you want them to
learn.
Rivka
M Blaze Miskulin wrote in message <3704CF2A...@chorus.net>...
>Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational
options
>> for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much
better
>> choices. So you aren't losing much.
>
>That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like
to
>disagree.
>Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good
job--especially
>given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from
the
>public.
"Amen!" Rivka says, standing on a chair and applauding. "I'm almost
entirely the product of public education - I went to public grade
schools, then spent four years at a private college, and am now at a
public university working towards my Ph.D. Some of you here in
Callahan's may have reservations about my personal qualities, but I
haven't gotten the sense that people think I'm poorly *educated.*
"I found that my public school education prepared me quite well for
the rigorous private college I attended. I've also found that my
graduate school classmates who have *never* been privately educated -
public grade schools, public undergraduate universities, public
graduate school - have no problems keeping up with those of us who
went to private colleges.
"I get tired of hearing people talk about how ignorant and poorly
educated public school students and graduates are. They usually don't
seem to realize that they're insulting the majority of their
audience."
Austin Ziegler
>> Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
>> given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
>> refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
>> be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
>> vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
>> give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
>> knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
>> education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
>> the involvement of the parents.
> I believe that the generalization was about the amount of education
> Received by students,in Public schools Vs.private.
> year after year, the Scores show a higher level of learning, in Private .
> over public.
Gee ... let's consider why this might be the case.
Private schools can:
* Select the students that they want -- and can even select the students
who will take the standardized tests, so as to provide a higher score
for the school;
* Expel "troublemaker" students.
Public schools must:
* Attempt to educate all comers, interested or not, toublemaker or not,
etc. They are also not allowed to select students who take standardized
tests, which means that the overall average WILL be lower.
(One particularly underhanded thing done last year in Ontario was that
all students were given a standardized test -- that covered things not
in the curriculum; the scores of all students, including ESL students,
were included. This year, when the test was taken, the ESL student
scores were excluded. Voila! Instant 15% increase.)
Don't *tell* me that private schools BY DEFINITION give better
educations. Because it just isn't true. Did the private religious
school I attended in South Carolina give me a better education than I
would have received on the public system? Yes. Did it compare *at all*
to the education I received at a public school in Texas? Hell, no.
That public school was one of TWO schools which had "Computer Science
III" -- for students who wanted advanced computer science topics in HS.
The year I was in it, there were ten students in the whole state of
Texas. It put me almost a year and a half BEYOND what Boston University
expected for programming from either its incoming CS or Computer
Engineering students.
Don't *even* try to tell me that particular lie. Public schools, being
larger, can often afford to offer a wider variety of courses than
private schools. The school I went to offered several courses ranging
from remedial to standard to Honours to AP to International
Baccalaureate. This just isn't possible at most private schools.
Private schools, in general, are also not prepared to deal with any
child who is learning disabled or with behavioural or temperamental
problems.
I'll also point out that my senior class was 944 people. And 872 people
graduated that year. There were well over 100 people on the honours
rolls.
Would you *please* care to try again?
-f
--
austin ziegler * fant0me(at)the(dash)wire(d0t)c0m * Ni bhionn an rath ach
ICQ#25o49818 (H) * aziegler(at)s0lect(d0t)c0m * mar a mbionn an smacht
ICQ#21o88733 (W) * fant0me526(at)yah00(d0t)c0m * (There is no Luck
AIM Fant0me526 *-s/0/o/g--------&&--------s/o/0/g-* without Discipline)
Toronto.ON.ca * I speak for myself alone *-----------------------
The difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish funeral is that
there's one less drunk in the room.
betnoir
> Don't *tell* me that private schools BY DEFINITION give better
> educations. Because it just isn't true. Did the private religious
> school I attended in South Carolina give me a better education than I
> would have received on the public system? Yes. Did it compare *at all*
> to the education I received at a public school in Texas? Hell, no.
It also depends on *which* school system you are talking about. It should come
as no great shock that the Beverly Hills school district by-in-large has a
better reputation than the Los Angeles school district. Or that a school in
West Los Angeles will perform better than one in East Los Angeles.
And some of it is what the parents are willing to chip in. And some of it is
that, like it or not, tax dollars are distributed unevenly in favor of schools
in better neighborhoods (why do you think schools keep attendance records? They
get a certain dollar amount per attending student per day -- at least in CA).
And sometimes it can be a fight on the part of parents. The school district I
was in prided itself on having a program for any type of student within it's
district. All good and well, until the school board voted to cut costs to the
*mainstream* schools by cutting out sixth period for juniors and seniors. Now,
you have two class-fulls of students who are starting to look at college who run
the risk of being shorted credits because they don't have that last class.
Needless to say, *that* notion didn't last very long.
There are good public schools, and gawdawful ones -- just as there are good and
bad private schools,
--
BetN -- NEVER parry with your head
'Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black
flag, and begin slitting throats' -- H.L. Mencken
'To desire the end is to desire the means' -- Draka
Noah Singman
>Banshee raises an eyebrow at LePheaux. "I don't know how else to
>say this, but scores don't mean jack. If it's grades you're talking about,
>they can be seriously inflated to show a higher average - what earns
>you an A in one school could be barely B- material in another. And
>standardized tests don't test understanding, they test your ability to
>take standardized tests.
"It has certainly been proven that you can improve your test scores
significantly with practice tests, training classes, etc."
>How much you actually know and retain and can put to practical use
>doesn't enter into it at all.
"Not at all? I think you're exaggerating. The SAT actually correlates
pretty well with performance in college. And unlike grades in school, which
are so subjective as to be useless (even for comparing students within a
given school), at least the SAT and other standardized tests are an
objective measure."
"I think it's safe to say that a student who gets 1500 or 1600 combined on
the SAT has a little more going on than just test-taking skills. And a
student who gets 5s on AP tests HAS to be more than just a good guesser. I
understand why you'd say 'scores don't mean jack,' but I think they mean a
bit more than that."
Noah
Randolph Fritz
wrote:
>
>"Is there any chance that this could be a regional situation?
>Because in my experience, the public schools that my sister and I
>attended were a lot farther ahead in education than that. It could
>just be that the public schools in your area are less than stellar,
>and you're generalizing from that to condemnation of all public
>schools.
>
"The rough rule-of-thumb used to be that public schools in the
wealthier major liberal cities and well-off white suburbs were pretty
good, other public schools not so--though this varied from place to
place. Rural schools in very conservative areas are notorious for low
quality, though there are exceptions. After some years of tax-cutting
mania, many public schools have gotten much worse, especially in major
cities. Massachussetts public schools--I believe you're from
there--are very good."
R.
Rebecca Schoenberg
: Rebecca Schoenberg wrote:
:>How much you actually know and retain and can put to practical use
:>doesn't enter into it at all.
: "Not at all? I think you're exaggerating. The SAT actually correlates
: pretty well with performance in college. And unlike grades in school, which
: are so subjective as to be useless (even for comparing students within a
: given school), at least the SAT and other standardized tests are an
: objective measure."
"However, how much of that correlation is due to higher quality of education,
and how much of it is due to the student's own innate intelligence and desire
to do well? Having a large number of students who do well on standardized
tests doesn't necessarily indicate that a school provides a better education.
They may, or they may just be better at training students to take tests. I've
seen schools where the AP classes consisted of giving students copies of
practice exams and teaching them all the answers to the questions, and training
them to know what was asked every year. They taught to pass the exam, and
all of their students had incredible scores, and most of them retained next
to nothing. Good scores, but no practical education.
: "I think it's safe to say that a student who gets 1500 or 1600 combined on
: the SAT has a little more going on than just test-taking skills. And a
: student who gets 5s on AP tests HAS to be more than just a good guesser. I
: understand why you'd say 'scores don't mean jack,' but I think they mean a
: bit more than that."
"My mistake, I was unclear. I didn't mean that they meant the students knew
nothing, I meant that high scores indicated nothing about the quality of
education the school provides. You can provide a miserable education while
churning out students with incredible SAT scores. Myself, I'd rather choose
a school by the quality of the teachers and the recommendations of other
parents I trust, and the attitude of the students, than by the test scores of
the graduates."
-banshee, walking proof that you can too get 5's on AP tests by just
being a good guesser
Rebecca Schoenberg
Banshee shakes her head no. "I only moved to Massachussetts when I went to
college. No wealthy, major liberal city or well-off white suburb. I went
to high school in a rather small city in the Pine Barrens in New Jersey.
10 minutes from Seaside Heights, across the street from the local Housing
Project Community. My high school was the one on the Wrong Side of the
Tracks - it was old, it was in the poor part of town, it had all the minority
students. It also had the best teachers, the most school spirit, and the
best attitude of any school I've ever seen.
"We fought tooth and nail for every penny we got - Ocean County, NJ has the
highest senior citizen population in America, and they protested every addition
to the school's budgets, and even after that, my high school got the dregs of
the money. We put up with parents lying about their address to get students
transfered out of the school, not because it was bad but because they didn't
like the image. And we still thrived. Students *liked* it there. The
teachers cared about the students, and about our education. Apparently, a
lot of things that aren't ever taught at oher schools were a required part
of the curriculum. And noone tried to keep the students back, or fought to
make life difficult for them or stifle their creativity.
"I can't think that this is the only school like this in the world - I've
got a lot of friends from other schools, with similar experiences. I
think that, when you're looking at or attending schools, you see what you
expect to see. If you're looking for, or expecting a good experience, you'll
find it; if you're looking to prove a theory that it's bad, you'll see the
points that support that theory."
-banshee, graduate of Toms River South, 1992 - centennial class
m_...@juno.com
> actually believe that you have as much experience and information to
> offer as an entire school full of teachers?
1) Why is this necessary? Home schooling is about the management of
resources; not about the parents teaching everything. At some point,
the child should take responsibility for learning on his own with
some guidance now and then.
2) The experience and information of an entire school full of teachers
isn't available to the average student. The student has access to
a time-slice of one or more teachers, and, in some cases, more direct
access should some teachers wish to make themselves available.
> That you have the same
> amount of expertise in all the areas as a school full of teachers?
Again, why is this necessary? Does every student learn everything that
every teacher in the school knows?
> Have
> you done all the things that they have done?
Will every student know everything that every teacher has done?
> Do you know all the
> possibilities that they know?
Will every student know all of the possibilities that they know?
> Do you have all the connections and
> friends that they have?
Will every student learn about every connection that every teacher has?
> I don't think so.
You've provided a rediculous strawman.
> A child can't research something if they don't know it exists.
That's why we do our best to provide our kids with various college
textbooks. I went to public school and used up the math courses. I
used to visit local universities looking for things to do and tried
learning various things on my own. I didn't have any guidance at all
from the school on this and they didn't really provide any.
> In my own case, if I hadn't
> walked through the gym one night, I never would have gotten into
> theatre. My parents never would have had the opportunity to mount a
> major musical, and there was no community theatre in my town then. In
> addition, I was a "gifted" student. I was correcting my parents when I
> was in grade school. I had more knowledge of science then than they
> did. There would have been no way that they could have kept up with me,
> much less taught me and offered me all the things that the public school
> could.
This is normal. I learn things along with our kids from time to time and
they learned early on that they could learn things on their own and know
more than their parents. Your lack of understanding is in that teachers
aren't necessarily a requirement for learning.
RchayaG
pretty well with performance in college.>>
Erm, the SAT is a good predictor for the first year of school for white males,
that's it
Rivka
"All truth passes through three stages, first it is ridiculed, second it is
violently opposed, third it is accepted as self-evident"
Schopenhauer
Austin Ziegler
> Rebecca Schoenberg wrote:
>> Banshee raises an eyebrow at LePheaux. "I don't know how else to
>> say this, but scores don't mean jack. If it's grades you're talking about,
>> they can be seriously inflated to show a higher average - what earns
>> you an A in one school could be barely B- material in another. And
>> standardized tests don't test understanding, they test your ability to
>> take standardized tests.
> "It has certainly been proven that you can improve your test scores
> significantly with practice tests, training classes, etc."
>> How much you actually know and retain and can put to practical use
>> doesn't enter into it at all.
> "Not at all? I think you're exaggerating. The SAT actually correlates
> pretty well with performance in college. And unlike grades in school, which
> are so subjective as to be useless (even for comparing students within a
> given school), at least the SAT and other standardized tests are an
> objective measure."
The SAT correlates ONLY with how well one will perform in one's first
semester of collegiate work. That's it.
And, Noah, if you've convinced yourself that standardized tests provide
"objective" measures, you really don't know much about how they work.
> "I think it's safe to say that a student who gets 1500 or 1600 combined on
> the SAT has a little more going on than just test-taking skills. And a
> student who gets 5s on AP tests HAS to be more than just a good guesser. I
> understand why you'd say 'scores don't mean jack,' but I think they mean a
> bit more than that."
Do NOT confuse an AP examination with a standardized test. While AP
examinations have some similarities to standardized tests, they are not
intended to measure deviation from a median score, like the MAT-6 and the
SAT are intended to do.
AP examinations are written so that specific knowledge -- not general
capabilities -- is tested with multiple-choice, sentence, and most
importantly, essay (or essay-type) questions. The majority of the score
is taken from the essay questions.
Noah Singman
>"However, how much of that correlation is due to higher quality of
>education, and how much of it is due to the student's own innate
>intelligence and desire to do well? Having a large number of students
>who do well on standardized tests doesn't necessarily indicate that a
>school provides a better education.
"Oh, I agree! We've had discussions here before about the difficulties of
measuring quality in teaching for just these reasons. Some students will
learn, and well, under the worst possible circumstances. Others won't get
it without extraordinary intervention. But I do think the tests provide at
least some correlation with how well a student has learned the material
being tested."
>They may, or they may just be better at training students to take tests.
>I've seen schools where the AP classes consisted of giving students
>copies of practice exams and teaching them all the answers to the
>questions, and training them to know what was asked every year.
>They taught to pass the exam, and all of their students had incredible
>scores, and most of them retained next to nothing. Good scores, but
>no practical education.
"Teachers who do that are committing the worst kind of academic fraud, and
should have their licenses revoked. Sadly, teaching to the test can
certainly happen. I just think it's a shame."
>"My mistake, I was unclear. I didn't mean that they meant the students
>knew nothing, I meant that high scores indicated nothing about the
>quality of education the school provides. You can provide a miserable
>education while churning out students with incredible SAT scores.
>Myself, I'd rather choose a school by the quality of the teachers and
>the recommendations of other parents I trust, and the attitude of the
>students, than by the test scores of the graduates."
"You may not have been unclear - I may have just read too much into 'scores
don't mean jack.' <G> But I agree that a student's individual performance
tells little about the quality of education a school provides. Of course,
we keep coming back to the extraordinary difficulty of measuring such
quality."
> -banshee, walking proof that you can too get 5's on AP tests by just
> being a good guesser
"May I ask which AP tests? I only took the tests in Calculus, Chemistry and
Physics, and remember a combination of multiple choice and long exercises,
in which you had to show your full solution to the problem. I can't imagine
guesswork helping much with those . . . but there are greater things in
heaven and earth, Rebecca, than are dreamt of in my philosophy." <G>
Noah
Noah Singman
>Erm, the SAT is a good predictor for the first year of school for white
>males, that's it
"I've heard that the correlations vary with race, sex, socioeconomic
variables . . . I'd be grateful if you could point me to some more detailed
studies."
Noah
Noah Singman
>The SAT correlates ONLY with how well one will perform in one's first
>semester of collegiate work. That's it.
"I didn't think it was the entire enrollment - and hopefully, Rivka can
provide some more detailed data, as she noted this too."
>And, Noah, if you've convinced yourself that standardized tests
>provide "objective" measures, you really don't know much about how
>they work.
"I haven't convinced myself of this at all. The only truly objective thing
about them is that all the students sit for the same exam (for the most
part). I do believe that they are more objective than classroom grades,
which vary with the whims of the teacher."
>Do NOT confuse an AP examination with a standardized test. While
>AP examinations have some similarities to standardized tests, they
>are not intended to measure deviation from a median score, like the
>MAT-6 and the SAT are intended to do.
"Perhaps this is why more and more colleges are not requiring the SAT from
applicants, but most colleges allow students to place out of introductory
classes if they've done well on the AP exams."
>AP examinations are written so that specific knowledge -- not general
>capabilities -- is tested with multiple-choice, sentence, and most
>importantly, essay (or essay-type) questions. The majority of the score
>is taken from the essay questions.
"I'm glad to hear that. I always thought the purpose of the AP exams should
be to measure knowledge and/or understanding in specific subjects."
Noah
Leslie
+>Little white letters scroll across the air in front of Rivka: "Rivka
+>is not a licensed psychologist. She does, however, know a fair amount
+>about autism."
There is a *zap-crackle* sound as the word 'autism' triggers Leslie's
'I just read something about that!' reflex.
"I have no idea if this relates to anything you may have said, Noel,
because I didn't read your original post, only Rivka's reply here,
but I just read an article at
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/hl
/story.html?s=v/nm/19990401/hl/aut3_1.html
(Or look for the story under Yahoo/headlines/Health)
With the title 'Milk protein may play role in mental disorders' -- and
autism was one of the disorders (the other was schizophrenia). Of course,
this needs more testing, but it makes a pretty convincing case for putting
a kid on a milk-free diet, just in case. Something about the way some
people can't digest casein properly, due to a malfunctioning enzyme in the
intestines. To quote from the story:
"'The researchers also found that the schizophrenic or autistic symptoms
of about 80% of these children fade or disappear after they are switched
to milk-free diets.'
"I hope this info helps someone out there....(and remember, no animal on
earth drinks milk after it's weaned. Not even cows).
Leslie.
Disclaimers: Leslie is not a psychologist, but she does have a couple of
psychology books on her bookshelves. She is also a vegan, and has a
personal interest in getting people to quit consuming dairy products for
health reasons, *not* political reasons.
--
* Spider Robinson info & alt.callahans FAQs: <http://www.vex.net/~leslie> *
*** "If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane." -- J. Buffett ***
Rivka
RchayaG wrote in message
<19990402235136...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
><<"Not at all? I think you're exaggerating. The SAT actually
correlates
>pretty well with performance in college.>>
>
white males,
>that's it
>
"Whoa, another Rivka," Rivka says, taken aback. "Welcome to Callahan's
Place. Um... not to be harsh, your first visit to the bar, but what's
your source for this claim? Because it's not my understanding at all."
Rebecca Schoenberg
: "Oh, I agree! We've had discussions here before about the difficulties of
: measuring quality in teaching for just these reasons. Some students will
: learn, and well, under the worst possible circumstances. Others won't get
: it without extraordinary intervention. But I do think the tests provide at
: least some correlation with how well a student has learned the material
: being tested."
*nod* "My biggest problem is when scores are quoted as proof that one school
is superior to another. For one thing, it doesn't necessarily follow, and for
another thing, there are a lot of important factors besides test scores that
should go into the evaluation of a school. How dedicated the teachers are
to helping the students learn, how much they care, what extracuricular
activities are available, how good they are at providing whatever type of
education you want for your child (AP/remedial ed/performing arts/vocational/
whatever)..... education is more than raw numbers.
: "Teachers who do that are committing the worst kind of academic fraud, and
: should have their licenses revoked. Sadly, teaching to the test can
: certainly happen. I just think it's a shame."
"It's not always the teacher's choice. If the administration wants the glory
of having the highest scores, they can put pressure on the teachers to
produce them by any means necessary. *sigh*
: "You may not have been unclear - I may have just read too much into 'scores
: don't mean jack.' <G> But I agree that a student's individual performance
: tells little about the quality of education a school provides. Of course,
: we keep coming back to the extraordinary difficulty of measuring such
: quality."
"To be perfectly honest, in my experience the best way to measure the quality
of education is by looking at the attitude of the students. A good teacher
makes children learn, not by forcing information into their heads with a
hammer, but by making them enjoy learning and want to learn more. Find the
teachers that the students genuinely like, not just take because they're
easy, and the schools where the students have pride in the school, and you'll
know the good schools."
:> -banshee, walking proof that you can too get 5's on AP tests by just
:> being a good guesser
: "May I ask which AP tests? I only took the tests in Calculus, Chemistry and
: Physics, and remember a combination of multiple choice and long exercises,
: in which you had to show your full solution to the problem. I can't imagine
: guesswork helping much with those . . . but there are greater things in
: heaven and earth, Rebecca, than are dreamt of in my philosophy." <G>
"Biology, English, and Computer Science. Plus the Spanish Achievement
Test. Plus GRE's and MCAT's. I've gone into tests like that on 3 1/2
hour's sleep and next to no prep, and done fine. The hardest part in any
test like that is the psychological aspect - they build it up to be some
intimidating, impossible, scary, hard thing so most of the students are
scared witless before the exam even starts. If you can get past that, and
keep calm, you're halfway there, and a lot of the rest is just logic and
common sense...."
-banshee, looking forward to taking the last standardized test of
her life in about a year and a half
Noah Singman
>"It's not always the teacher's choice. If the administration wants the
>glory of having the highest scores, they can put pressure on the
>teachers to produce them by any means necessary. *sigh*
"No argument, and I won't suggest that teachers quit rather than buckle
under - I know that most cannot afford to. However, they can talk to the
parents about what's going on, and why they believe they are being forced to
teach to some test rather than truly teach. And one more thing - virtually
all public school teachers belong to unions. I would love to see a
teacher's strike that was not about money, or hours, but about curriculum."
>"To be perfectly honest, in my experience the best way to measure the
>quality of education is by looking at the attitude of the students. A
>good teacher makes children learn, not by forcing information into
>their heads with a hammer, but by making them enjoy learning and
>want to learn more. Find the teachers that the students genuinely like,
>not just take because they're easy, and the schools where the
>students have pride in the school, and you'll know the good schools."
"Ah, but you noted a difficult-to-measure caveat there - 'not just because
they're easy.' A classroom should be fun - I don't like somber educational
settings. But a teacher may be popular for the wrong reasons."
>:> -banshee, walking proof that you can too get 5's on AP tests by just
>:> being a good guesser
>: "May I ask which AP tests? [snip] I can't imagine guesswork helping
>: much with those
>"Biology, English, and Computer Science. Plus the Spanish
>Achievement Test. Plus GRE's and MCAT's. I've gone into tests like
>that on 3 1/2 hour's sleep and next to no prep, and done fine. The
>hardest part in any test like that is the psychological aspect - they
>build it up to be some intimidating, impossible, scary, hard thing so
>most of the students are scared witless before the exam even starts.
>If you can get past that, and keep calm, you're halfway there, and a lot
>of the rest is just logic and common sense...."
"OK - I agree that you don't need prep classes, or other great efforts, for
such tests. But it doesn't sound like you did well 'by just being a good
guesser.' Presumably you had taken coursework covering much of the material
being tested, and were academically prepared. On the rest, I agree -
test-taking skills definitely help."
> -banshee, looking forward to taking the last standardized test of
> her life in about a year and a half
"Good luck! I took my last standardized test in 1980. But try and get more
than 3 1/2 hours sleep this time. <G>"
Noah
Noel Lynne Figart
>On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:02:01 -0600 in alt.callahans, Rivka said:
>+>Little white letters scroll across the air in front of Rivka: "Rivka
>+>is not a licensed psychologist. She does, however, know a fair amount
>+>about autism."
>
>There is a *zap-crackle* sound as the word 'autism' triggers Leslie's
>'I just read something about that!' reflex.
>
>"I have no idea if this relates to anything you may have said, Noel,
>because I didn't read your original post, only Rivka's reply here,
>but I just read an article at
>
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/hl
>/story.html?s=v/nm/19990401/hl/aut3_1.html
>(Or look for the story under Yahoo/headlines/Health)
"Interesting. <grin> I had cheese for breakfast.."
"But what has really got my knickers in a twist is that Samuel doesn't
display one of the biggest signs of autism -- lack of emotional
reciprocity.
"What I suspect got these particular people thinking along those lines
is that my son won't obey an adult merely because that person is an
adult. They have to earn his respect and establish that they have a
right to some level of authority. Not that earning Samuel's respect
is very difficult, but you cannot do it in five minutes.
"My mother says that both my brother and I were like that. If an
adult tried to assert authority prematurely, my brother would throw a
shrieking fit. I merely walked away, which is what Samuel does.
Hence, the autism suspicion."
_________
Noel, Axe of the Babs, Mum to the Genius in the High Chair,
and She who Truly Groks Coffee
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
AOL Instant Messenger: NoelFigart
ICQ # 3479805
Rules for Evil Overlords
34. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.
Austin Ziegler
>> "However, how much of that correlation is due to higher quality of
>> education, and how much of it is due to the student's own innate
>> intelligence and desire to do well? Having a large number of students
>> who do well on standardized tests doesn't necessarily indicate that a
>> school provides a better education.
> measuring quality in teaching for just these reasons. Some students will
> learn, and well, under the worst possible circumstances. Others won't get
> it without extraordinary intervention. But I do think the tests provide at
> least some correlation with how well a student has learned the material
> being tested."
Tests provide at least some correlation with how well a student has
learned the material being tested UNDER STRESSFUL CIRCUMSTANCES. The
best tests that I ever had were open book tests. Why? Because you
*still* had to know the material well enough to know where to look for
it in the book. The tests were several "notches" more difficult to
complete and answer correctly.
Standardized tests -- things like the MAT-6, the SAT, etc. -- test very
limited capabilities, and many of those are not suited to the "real
world" (the analogies section, which I did very well in[1], has been
barely useful in my professional and personal life, and I'm both a
programmer and a poet, where these "might" be useful). Suggesting that
they're a good measure of learning is laughable, at best.
I honestly haven't yet needed Calculus.
>> They may, or they may just be better at training students to take tests.
>> I've seen schools where the AP classes consisted of giving students
>> copies of practice exams and teaching them all the answers to the
>> questions, and training them to know what was asked every year.
>> They taught to pass the exam, and all of their students had incredible
>> scores, and most of them retained next to nothing. Good scores, but
>> no practical education.
> "Teachers who do that are committing the worst kind of academic fraud, and
> should have their licenses revoked. Sadly, teaching to the test can
> certainly happen. I just think it's a shame."
I agree with you about them being academic frauds. But teaching to the
test isn't just a "can," it's a "does." I think that's one big
complaint about the New York Regents' Examinations, or am I wrong on
this?
-f
[1] I'm living evidence that the SAT only shows the first semester. I took
the SAT once. Got a 1400. I did wonderful in my first semester. I did
crappy in the following two. Then I started bouncing schools.
M Blaze Miskulin
>
> In article <370535AA...@chorus.net>,
> M Blaze Miskulin <brb...@chorus.net> wrote:
> > actually believe that you have as much experience and information to
> > offer as an entire school full of teachers?
> 2) The experience and information of an entire school full of teachers
> isn't available to the average student. The student has access to
> a time-slice of one or more teachers, and, in some cases, more direct
> access should some teachers wish to make themselves available.
Yes, the student does have access to all these teachers. He may not be
assigned to their classes, but I have yet to meet a teacher who wouldn't
take some time to help out a student who wasn't in their class. There
is a vast pool of knowledge in a full school, and all the student has to
do is walk down the hall to get to it.
>
> Again, why is this necessary? Does every student learn everything that
> every teacher in the school knows?
> Will every student know everything that every teacher has done?
> Will every student know all of the possibilities that they know?
> Will every student learn about every connection that every teacher has?
Of course not. And I never implied that such was the case. Please
don't take my comments and stretch them out of proportion. Having all
of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
for the student. Each educator brings new ideas, new information, new
possibilities to the learning process. A school full of teachers brings
a vastly larger pool of resources to the table. This allows the student
the ability to pick from among a greater array of choices. Each teacher
adds something--large or small--which the others are unable to. Things
as small as anecdotes, stories, opinions and attitudes: while they may
seem insignificant on the surface, they have a great potential to be the
trigger to launch the child into an area of interest. The pool of
knowledge can then be tapped, going to a larger array of sources--a
larger array of teachers to glean as much information and as many skills
as possible.
> You've provided a rediculous strawman.
Nope. I've given a solid statement that 25 teachers provide more
possiblilties, more information, and more insight than one. It's basic
common sense.
> > A child can't research something if they don't know it exists.
>
> That's why we do our best to provide our kids with various college
> textbooks.
Textbooks are only words on a page. Real learning comes from people,
from experience, and from guidance. I would rather provide a student
with more teacher than more books.
And going back to the original statement: A textbook is useless if the
child doesn't know the field of study exists. And what about all those
areas in which there aren't available text books? Or the textbooks are
written for graduate students? A teacher is someone who is able to
translate the information, and adjust the models and metaphors to those
that the child can understand--we all learn in different ways.
I cannot be convinced that fewer teachers is better.
There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
LePheaux
>to high school in a rather small city in the Pine Barrens in New Jersey.
>10 minutes from Seaside Heights, across the street from the local Housing
>Project Community. My high school was the one on the Wrong Side of the
>Tracks - it was old, it was in the poor part of town, it had all the
minority
>students. It also had the best teachers, the most school spirit, and the
>best attitude of any school I've ever seen.
><<<>>>
And how many schools did you attend.
<<<<>>>>
>"We fought tooth and nail for every penny we got - Ocean County, NJ has the
>highest senior citizen population in America, and they protested every
addition
><<<>>>
And I believe that your statement would be incorrect. Depending on the time
of year. half the residents(Seniors)Head off to Florida,of which, there are
several counties battling it out every year for the highest ratio of
seniors.
Banshee, didn't I hear you say you were familiar with south Florida.
then you should know that Jersey Anita even close, in the race .
Jacob Sommer
>
> M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
> > Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> > > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > > choices. So you aren't losing much.
> >
> > That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> > disagree.
>
> environments. However, I have been a tutor for 4 years, and most of the
> students who came to me from public schools were not getting much of an
> education. A 7th grader was still doing pre-algebra; and it was very badly
> taught. A 11th grader was taking calculus, but did not know how to add
> fractions, let alone algebra or trigonometry. And these weren't stupid kids,
> and they weren't the worst in their class. The 11th grader was getting A's.
Many years ago, one of the families my family got along with very well
moved to a southern state from Massachusetts. The education testing
folks down there had a field day with the children (all girls I may add).
The girl who had been in my class tested as three or four grades higher
than what she had been in Massachusetts (ie she had been in 4th grade in
MA but tested at 7th or 8th down there).
Her two older siblings did similarly.
Jacob
Rebecca Schoenberg
:><<<>>>
: And how many schools did you attend.
: <<<<>>>>
Banshee counts mentally back in her head. "5. Plus the data from the schools
my little sister and my friends, both in and out of state, attended."
:>"We fought tooth and nail for every penny we got - Ocean County, NJ has the
:>highest senior citizen population in America, and they protested every
: addition
:><<<>>>
: And I believe that your statement would be incorrect. Depending on the time
: of year. half the residents(Seniors)Head off to Florida,of which, there are
: several counties battling it out every year for the highest ratio of
: seniors.
: Banshee, didn't I hear you say you were familiar with south Florida.
: then you should know that Jersey Anita even close, in the race .
"Whatever you believe, I'm not arguing personal opinion, but state and national
census data. Many of the senior citizens in Florida don't live there year-
round, they only go there for the winter and keep their permanent residence
in another state."
-banshee, wondering what the relevance of this is
The Trinker
Noah Singman wrote:
>
> Austin Ziegler wrote:
> >The SAT correlates ONLY with how well one will perform in one's first
> >semester of collegiate work. That's it.
>
> "I didn't think it was the entire enrollment - and hopefully, Rivka can
> provide some more detailed data, as she noted this too."
The Trinker quietly tugs at Noah's sleeve. "Psst. I know she
didn't in this thread, but *that* Rivka is going by the name
Muse, now, and shouldn't be confused with Rivka who is:
Rivka is ri...@iowacity.net and a fourth-year graduate student
in clinical psych, and was recently described as "Rebecca of
Sunnybrook Farm fallen in with bad companions."
Just trying to keep us all a little less confused. I hope."
(Welcome to the Place, Muse!)
The Trinker
(who is doing a really bad job at being ABEND)
--
spam filtered. To send e-mail remove the spamtrap.
Eleri
:-o >Homeschooling deprives the child of social interaction, peer competition
:-o >and support, extra-curricular activities, and a wide range of alternate
:-o >viewpoints and information. This can deprive the student of an unknown
:-o >list of options in their life (I never would have entered the field I'm
:-o >in if I hadn't been exposed to it in school).
:-o >
I'll dissagree with you pretty vehemiantly on this one. Homeschooling
only deprives a child of these things IF the parents do not find any
other social outlets for their child. MANY areas have social groups
for homeschoolers, including group learning time, fireld trips and the
like. Scouting or other social groups are highly appropriate, and most
states require school districts to allow homeschoolers acseess to
extracurricular activities.
The artificial social structure of a public school includes only
interacting with people yur own age, and only socializing with 'peers'
who have the same intests as yourself. This in no way reflects the
'real world' where you will need to regularly interact with people of
all ages and tastes, under many different situations.
Museums, theatres and other groups often have programs for youth, and
homeschoolers can take advantage of these, just as any public school
teacher can.
The myth that homeschooled children are deprived of social interaction
is perpetuated by the image of the ultra-religious family who
homeschools in a bunker, without allowing their children to see the
outside world.
The only thing homeschooling dreprives a child of, is the
clique-ridden, sequestered enviroment of public school.
~~Eleri~~
It's these little times, that helps to remind
It's nothing without love...
-Jewel-
Noah Singman
> The Trinker quietly tugs at Noah's sleeve. "Psst. I know she
> didn't in this thread, but *that* Rivka is going by the name
> Muse, now, and shouldn't be confused with Rivka who is:
> Rivka is ri...@iowacity.net and a fourth-year graduate student
> in clinical psych, and was recently described as "Rebecca of
> Sunnybrook Farm fallen in with bad companions."
> Just trying to keep us all a little less confused. I hope."
"Oh, thanks - and sorry to our Rivka archetype, and our newcomer as well."
>(Welcome to the Place, Muse!)
"I'll echo that!! And my sympathies at your efforts to be ABEND, Trinker -
places like this are addictive. <G>"
Noah
Noah Singman
>Tests provide at least some correlation with how well a student has
>learned the material being tested UNDER STRESSFUL
>CIRCUMSTANCES.
"Good point, that last one. And there is something to be said for
developing an ability to recall under pressure - a good Help Desk worker
certainly needs it."
>The best tests that I ever had were open book tests. Why? Because
>you *still* had to know the material well enough to know where to look
>for it in the book. The tests were several "notches" more difficult to
>complete and answer correctly.
"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the only
reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have otherwise."
>Standardized tests -- things like the MAT-6, the SAT, etc. -- test very
>limited capabilities, and many of those are not suited to the "real
>world" (the analogies section, which I did very well in[1], has been
>barely useful in my professional and personal life, and I'm both a
>programmer and a poet, where these "might" be useful). Suggesting
>that they're a good measure of learning is laughable, at best.
>I honestly haven't yet needed Calculus.
"It depends a lot on the kinds of programming you do. In financial
services, it's essential (some other areas of application programming as
well, such as animation). Systems programming, and the related arts, place
a higher premium on discrete mathematics and algorithmic analysis. An
exception is simulations - LOTS of probability and statistics, and the
calculus is tough to avoid."
>I agree with you about them being academic frauds. But teaching to
>the test isn't just a "can," it's a "does." I think that's one big
complaint
>about the New York Regents' Examinations, or am I wrong on this?
"I don't know how much the Regents' Exams may have changed since I graduated
from high school (in 1977), but they were more like a standard final exam in
any particular subject than anything else. Depending on how well the
subject was taught in your school, you found the exams either easy or
challenging. My father was a NYC junior high school teacher until he
retired in '92, and he doesn't think there was much teaching to the test.
Of course, being cynical, he reasoned that if there had been more teaching
to the test, the scores would have been much better."
"Also, taking Regents Exams was not mandatory for all high schoolers. You
needed them, and a certain minimum number of years of various core subjects,
if you want a NY Regents endorsement on your high school diploma."
Noah
Michael Moy
>
> m_...@juno.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <370535AA...@chorus.net>,
> > M Blaze Miskulin <brb...@chorus.net> wrote:
> > > As for the list of options: Do you, as a parent and homeschooler,
> > > actually believe that you have as much experience and information to
> > > offer as an entire school full of teachers?
>
> > 2) The experience and information of an entire school full of teachers
> > isn't available to the average student. The student has access to
> > a time-slice of one or more teachers, and, in some cases, more direct
> > access should some teachers wish to make themselves available.
>
> Yes, the student does have access to all these teachers. He may not be
> assigned to their classes, but I have yet to meet a teacher who wouldn't
> take some time to help out a student who wasn't in their class. There
> is a vast pool of knowledge in a full school, and all the student has to
> do is walk down the hall to get to it.
Then why don't the students coming from public schools know everything
that
all of their teachers know? Perhaps you can do this and perhaps you
can't.
Teachers with a full load can be quite busy and are entitled to their
breaks
during the day. I didn't know that this was available when I went to
school
nor was it advertised.
> > Again, why is this necessary? Does every student learn everything that
> > every teacher in the school knows?
>
> > Will every student know everything that every teacher has done?
>
> > Will every student know all of the possibilities that they know?
>
> > Will every student learn about every connection that every teacher has?
>
> Of course not. And I never implied that such was the case. Please
> don't take my comments and stretch them out of proportion. Having all
> of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
> for the student.
It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
through.
It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
> Each educator brings new ideas, new information, new
> possibilities to the learning process.
You can't possibly absorb all of those ideas though and you can't take
advantage of them all as your strawman pointed to.
> A school full of teachers brings
> a vastly larger pool of resources to the table. This allows the student
> the ability to pick from among a greater array of choices.
The student needs to understand the choices and their availability. And
needs
to have the time to find the appropriate specialist, the time to speak
to
said specialist and then the time to pursue the choices.
> Each teacher
> adds something--large or small--which the others are unable to. Things
> as small as anecdotes, stories, opinions and attitudes: while they may
> seem insignificant on the surface, they have a great potential to be the
> trigger to launch the child into an area of interest. The pool of
> knowledge can then be tapped, going to a larger array of sources--a
> larger array of teachers to glean as much information and as many skills
> as possible.
Or not. We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
our
high-schools given this availability.
> > You've provided a rediculous strawman.
>
> Nope. I've given a solid statement that 25 teachers provide more
> possiblilties, more information, and more insight than one. It's basic
> common sense.
Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking advantage of
it.
> > > A child can't research something if they don't know it exists.
> >
> > That's why we do our best to provide our kids with various college
> > textbooks.
>
> Textbooks are only words on a page. Real learning comes from people,
> from experience, and from guidance. I would rather provide a student
> with more teacher than more books.
1) I was answering your comment above. College-level textbooks provide
lots of areas and ideas which they can further research. In fact, you
could get a lot more ideas and areas to look into from reading
through
textbooks than you could from sitting with a teacher given that you
can
read considerably faster than you can listen.
2) These ideas can then be explored via other means; experts if
necessary.
> And going back to the original statement: A textbook is useless if the
> child doesn't know the field of study exists. And what about all those
> areas in which there aren't available text books?
I have borrowing privileges to 2.5 million volumes and have usually been
able to find something on just about any subject that I've been
interested
in. I can do internet searches too which can turn up areas to look into.
> Or the textbooks are written for graduate students?
We haven't done much work with graduate-level stuff. I do intend to lay
the undergraduate mathematical foundations, though, to do graduate level
stuff.
> A teacher is someone who is able to
> translate the information, and adjust the models and metaphors to those
> that the child can understand--we all learn in different ways.
I have no problem with a multi-modal approach. But don't believe that
teachers are required.
> I cannot be convinced that fewer teachers is better.
Check the recent home schooling statistics at:
http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/
Perhaps you can't be convinced but the results seem to be good.
> There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
> that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
regardless
of what you do or do not concede.
Michael Moy
>
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> >
> > M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
> > > Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational options
> > > > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > > > choices. So you aren't losing much.
> > >
> > > That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> > > disagree.
> >
> > Well, I agree that there are awful private schools and terrible homeschooling
> > environments. However, I have been a tutor for 4 years, and most of the
> > students who came to me from public schools were not getting much of an
> > education. A 7th grader was still doing pre-algebra; and it was very badly
> > taught.
I think that 7th-graders doing pre-algebra is considered accelerated.
Why we
need six to eight years to teach arithmetic and a smattering of other
subjects
and four years to teach high-school algebra is beyond me.
> > A 11th grader was taking calculus, but did not know how to add
> > fractions, let alone algebra or trigonometry.
Again, this is considered accelerated. I've heard the problem with
adding
fractions from college professors too. I heard (on one of the math-ed
lists)
that a college professor demonstrated a proof that one is greater than
two
(there was a nice long thread on various ways to do this). One of the
students
asked for an example of a practical application of this proof.
> > And these weren't stupid kids,
> > and they weren't the worst in their class. The 11th grader was getting A's.
The problem in an environment where you get lecture, study, take the
test and
then promptly forget the material. At least they're bright enough to get
help.
> Many years ago, one of the families my family got along with very well
> moved to a southern state from Massachusetts. The education testing
> folks down there had a field day with the children (all girls I may add).
>
> The girl who had been in my class tested as three or four grades higher
> than what she had been in Massachusetts (ie she had been in 4th grade in
> MA but tested at 7th or 8th down there).
> Her two older siblings did similarly.
Massachusetts used to have a very good reputation for education as did
California. It seems that it has taken a long slide downhill since
around
desegregation through the economic problems during the Dukakis'
administration.
Michael Moy
>
> M Blaze Miskulin <brb...@chorus.net> wrote in article
> <3704CF2A...@chorus.net>...
> > Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational
> options
> > > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > > choices. So you aren't losing much.
> >
> > That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> > disagree.
> >
> > "alternative" liberal. To lump them all together is far too great of a
> > generalization to mean anything.
The former are more common. I only know of a few of the latter. There
are also
academic private schools which are considerably more expensive than the
aforementioned.
> > Secondly, private schools which are stricter (especially parochial) can
> > hamper the creative nature and expression of a student who does not fit
> > well into a highly structured system. Green hair and leather jackets
> > are a harmless way for kids to assert their independence. Take those
> > options away and other, less visible, ways can take their place.
Yup. Kind of like some of the asian schools.
> > Cushy classrooms and well-pressed uniforms do not mean a child is
> > getting an education which is appropriate to his needs.
The parent has to determine the type of school that is a good fit.
Having an unmedicated ADHD kid would probably not be a good fit for
a strict parochial school.
> > Homeschooling deprives the child of social interaction, peer competition
> > and support, extra-curricular activities, and a wide range of alternate
> > viewpoints and information. This can deprive the student of an unknown
> > list of options in their life (I never would have entered the field I'm
> > in if I hadn't been exposed to it in school).
> >
> > This is *not* to say that either of these options are wrong. It only
> > shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
> > on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
> > and temperment of the child.
> >
> > Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
> > given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
> > public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
> > refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
> > be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
> > vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
> > give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
> > knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
> > education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
> > the involvement of the parents.
The Catholic schools do have an advantage in structure from the research
that I've read. And home schooling parents have a lot more flexibility
in using unschooling or other nontraditional approaches.
Schools generally don't deal well with students that have vastly
diffferent abilities in different subjects too.
Michael Moy
>
> "Noah Singman" wrote:
> []"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
> []test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
> []defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the only
> []reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
> []trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have otherwise."
>
> shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
> to the test.
Perhaps you could do some interesting things with a set of bifocals.
j.w.
M Blaze Miskulin <brb...@chorus.net> wrote in article
<3704CF2A...@chorus.net>...
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Incidentally, public school is by far one of the worst educational
options
> > for your child; either private school or homeschooling are much better
> > choices. So you aren't losing much.
>
> That's a rather sweeping assessment, and one with which I would like to
> disagree.
>
> First off, private schools vary greatly--from strict parochial to
> "alternative" liberal. To lump them all together is far too great of a
> generalization to mean anything.
>
> Secondly, private schools which are stricter (especially parochial) can
> hamper the creative nature and expression of a student who does not fit
> well into a highly structured system. Green hair and leather jackets
> are a harmless way for kids to assert their independence. Take those
> options away and other, less visible, ways can take their place.
>
> Cushy classrooms and well-pressed uniforms do not mean a child is
> getting an education which is appropriate to his needs.
>
> Homeschooling deprives the child of social interaction, peer competition
> and support, extra-curricular activities, and a wide range of alternate
> viewpoints and information. This can deprive the student of an unknown
> list of options in their life (I never would have entered the field I'm
> in if I hadn't been exposed to it in school).
>
> This is *not* to say that either of these options are wrong. It only
> shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
> on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
> and temperment of the child.
>
> Public schools, their teachers and staff, do a very good job--especially
> given the type of support (or lack thereof) which they recieve from the
> public. People bitch and moan about the crappy public schools, but
> refuse to support the schools. They don't want to pay taxes, they can't
> be bothered to get involved with the programs. From what I've seen, the
> vast majority of teachers in public schools do everything they can to
> give kids a good education--both from text books and from personal
> knowledge. And the majority of students who graduate recieve a decent
> education. More than anything, the education of the student depends on
> the involvement of the parents.
>
>
> --
> Brother Blaze
> The Unintentional Monk
> =========
Mike, Brother Blaze's drinks go on my tab tonight.
j.w.
j.w.
Austin Ziegler <azie...@the-wire.com> wrote
>
> (One particularly underhanded thing done last year in Ontario was that
> all students were given a standardized test -- that covered things not
> in the curriculum; the scores of all students, including ESL students,
> were included. This year, when the test was taken, the ESL student
> scores were excluded. Voila! Instant 15% increase.)
Minor nitpick here. When the first round of standardized testing was done
the "rules" were not made clear. Therefore, some schools tested _all_ their
grade 3 and grade 6 students while others did not test special ed. kids.
So, some schools fared really poorly when the results were published due to
an uneven playing field.
j.w.
Jim M. Pierce
"Noah Singman" wrote:
[]"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
[]test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
[]defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the only
[]reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
[]trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have otherwise."
One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
to the test.
DJ.
--
djim50 at bellsouth dot net Disclaimer: Standard
I also don't need extra Tea and spam in my reply to...:-)
CoastCon Web pages http://www.coastcon.org/
Web pages now at: http://www.crosswinds.net/el-paso/~djim51
Larisa Migachyov
<Pine.GSU.4.05.99040...@psyche.the-wire.com> <9OwN2.1702$qy5....@news.rdc1.nj.home.com> <3706d9df...@news.atl.bellsouth.net>:
Distribution: world
Jim M. Pierce wrote:
>
> "Noah Singman" wrote:
> []"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
> []test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
> []defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the only
> []reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
> []trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have otherwise."
>
> One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
> shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
> to the test.
I had this too, both in high school and in college. I learned to write
really small (and got a special pen that could produce an extra fine
line). :)
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
----------------------------------------------------------
They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.
RchayaG
Place. Um... not to be harsh, your first visit to the bar, but what's
your source for this claim? Because it's not my understanding at all.">>
No prob, sorry I forgot to sign as Muse, (My IRC nick which I'll go by here).
I have a compleatly unrelated paper to write, but I will get back to you, when
I have a life again.
Rivka
"All truth passes through three stages, first it is ridiculed, second it is
violently opposed, third it is accepted as self-evident"
Schopenhauer
Rebecca Schoenberg
:> "Noah Singman" wrote:
:> []"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
:> []test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
:> []defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the
:> []only reference you could use during the test. Students often studied
:> []harder trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have
:> []otherwise."
:>
:> One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
:> shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
:> to the test.
: I had this too, both in high school and in college. I learned to write
: really small (and got a special pen that could produce an extra fine
: line). :)
"I had a couple of profs that allowed this, but after the first test I realized
that the cheat-sheets were really doing me more harm than good. I wasted time
making them that could have been spent studying, the vast majority of stuff
I put on it turned out to be unimportant, and in timed tests I spent way too
much time looking for the right information on the tiny, scribbled thing.
"Now, the profs here at vet school add a sheet with important equations to
the test when they hand it out, if they think we need it. No unfair
advantages, since we'll have the reference books right in our office once we
get into practice, so there's really no need to memorize them, and it leaves
us free to learn important things instead of trying to cram seventeen pages
of dose formulas and chemical half-lives onto an index card...."
-banshee, a fan of practical education
M Blaze Miskulin
> > Yes, the student does have access to all these teachers. He may not be
> > assigned to their classes, but I have yet to meet a teacher who wouldn't
> > take some time to help out a student who wasn't in their class. There
> > is a vast pool of knowledge in a full school, and all the student has to
> > do is walk down the hall to get to it.
Michael Moy:
> Then why don't the students coming from public schools know everything
> that all of their teachers know?
Please show me where in my posts I have stated that the student will
learn every thing that he has access to? I *never* said that. Again,
please do not take my comments and stretch them out of proportion.
Michael Moy:
> Teachers with a full load can be quite busy and are entitled to their
> breaks
> during the day. I didn't know that this was available when I went to
> school
> nor was it advertised.
Well then, I feel sorry for you. Mostly because you didn't think to ask
questions. I've only been in two public school sysytems (one as
student, both as a teacher). In both of them, the students take time
from their recess, lunch, study halls, or after class to come to
teachers and ask for help. "I'm doing a project for science, can you
help me paint the display?" When I get to something I don't know, I
send them to the appropriate teacher. The other teachers do the same.
Common practice.
Me:
> > Having all
> > of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
> > for the student.
Michael Moy:
> It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
> through.
> It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
In my experience (two public grade/middle/high schools one public
college) it does seem like the norm. And, while anecdotal, the same is
true for the friends from other schools I've talk to. It's not all up
to the student. As a teacher, I (and the other teachers I know) send
students to other teachers who have more knowledge on a topic. And
again, they only have to walk down the hall. I have yet to run across a
teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
time to help a student who asked.
Me:
> > Each educator brings new ideas, new information, new
> > possibilities to the learning process.
Michael Moy:
> You can't possibly absorb all of those ideas though and you can't take
> advantage of them all as your strawman pointed to.
Sorry, but I don't know where you get this idea that I ever said a
person would take advantage of everything. Again I *NEVER* said this.
I made no strawman. You are building one on my behalf by inferring
extreme meanings to my words. Saying a library is a good resource does
not imply that one must read every book. Saying a restaurant has good
food does not imply that one must eat every item on the menu. And
saying that a school is full of people with information and experiences
to share does not imply that a student must learn all of it. I have no
idea where you get this idea, but *stop* attributing it to me.
Michael Moy:
> The student needs to understand the choices and their availability. And
> needs
> to have the time to find the appropriate specialist, the time to speak
> to
> said specialist and then the time to pursue the choices.
And this differs from going to a library and reading it in a book how?
I don't know what kind of kids you deal with, but the several hundred I
deal with are generally astute enough to know that when they want to
know how to draw or sculpt, they go to the art teacher. When they want
to know about knights' armor, they go to the history teacher--if it's
not his area, he points them to the correct teacher. If they want to
know how to do a graph, they go to the math teacher. If they want to
build a chariot for "Roman Days" they go to the shop teacher.
Time to find the specialist? That's as easy as "Mr Miskulin? Do you
know anything about armor?" "Yes, some, what do you want to know?" or
"Do you know anything about differential calculus?" "No. I don't. Why
don't you go talk to Mr. Davis." That's all of about 15 seconds. How
long would it take to go to the library or book store, find the section
on the topic, and look through the book to find the answer to the
specific question?
Textbooks were the option you promoted, correct?
As for time to do it? That's what study halls are for. And I have
several students each day that give up their recess and/or lunch time
(voluntarily) to work on projects--both for school and for home.
Michael Moy:
> We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> our
> high-schools given this availability.
And we don't?
I learned: science (physics and biology), literature (American, English,
world), speech (public address, interpretive reading (3 years of speach
training and competition on the forensics team)), drama (design, tech,
and performance), art (drawing, photography, casting and metal-woking,
pottery, painting), music (symphonic band, marching band, jazz ensemble,
color guard, choir), newpaper techniques (journalistic writing, editing,
layout), graphic design ((yearbook) layout, montage, continutity)),
athletics (track and field), creative writing (short fiction, poetry,
drama), carpentry (scenic carpentry, woodworking, drafting and
blue-print reading), law (mock trial).
And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head from my 4
years of high school.
Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
their own?
And this doesn't include the core classes (basic English, math, science,
etc) or all the little bits of information, stories, anecdotes,
techniques, references, opinions, viewpoints, discussions, and other
gleanings I gathered from all the teachers over the course of 12 years.
Ask anyone who knows me. I'm sure they'll agree that I'm a rather
well-rounded individual. And while everyone may not have been involved
in as much as me, many of my fellow students were, and a number did far
more than I did.
Me:
> > I've given a solid statement that 25 teachers provide more
> > possiblilties, more information, and more insight than one. It's basic
> > common sense.
Michael Moy:
> Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking advantage of
> it.
The possibilities and opportunities are there whether the student takes
advantage of them or not. As for time-sharing? You seem to think that
teachers are unwilling to make time for their students. Teachers are in
the business because they love to teach. Their purpose and their job
are to teach students. Every teacher I know (which is somewhere over
100, I would estimate) will take time or make time to give a student
help (even one from outside their class).
And...you won't learn anything from all the books in the library if you
don't take advantage of them.
Michael Moy:
> 1) I was answering your comment above. College-level textbooks provide
> lots of areas and ideas which they can further research. In fact, you
> could get a lot more ideas and areas to look into from reading
> through
> textbooks than you could from sitting with a teacher given that you
> can
> read considerably faster than you can listen.
Speed has nothing to do with it. For one thing, textbooks tend to focus
on small areas of study. A human brain can connect events and
information which seem to be unconnected. My WWII text book talked about
Monte Casino. It said absolutely nothing about the Sihks (the people
who actually ascended the mountain to take out the Nazis). A teacher
informed me about that. A textbook won't mention good fiction books to
read on a subject. A textbook won't say "If you want to know about what
Vietnam was like, go talk to Ralph, He was there." A textbook can't
look at the doodles on you notebook and say "I see you're interested in
robots, have you read any Asimov?"
You can't ask a textbook questions. You can't get a textbook to explain
a point more clearly. A textbook can't adapt its examples and metaphors
to ones which are familiar to a student.
Michael Moy:
> 2) These ideas can then be explored via other means; experts if
> necessary.
Why not just go to the ones who know in the first place? Use the
textbooks as reference and supplimental information. What makes a
printed word more true or more right than a spoken word?
Michael Moy:
> I have borrowing privileges to 2.5 million volumes and have usually been
> able to find something on just about any subject that I've been
> interested
> in. I can do internet searches too which can turn up areas to look into.
Okay.
"I wan't to do a watercolor painting where the sky has clouds with the
texture like this piece of coffee-stained cotton."
"I'm looking for a story to read for my speach class. It has to be less
than 8 minutes long, and appropriate for high-school students. I want
something that's light-hearted but not funny, and has a serious topic
underneath it. And it has to have at least 3 characters in it."
"I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
*interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
You go look through your 2.5 million volumes. I'll walk down the hall
and ask the art, English, and social studies teachers.
Me:
> >There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
> >that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
Michael Moy:
> Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
> regardless of what you do or do not concede.
Once again: I have not said that homeschooling is wrong. I have not
said that homeschooled students aren't getting an education. Never said
it. I don't doubt that homeschooling is right for some people. I
adamantly fight the notion that it is *automatically and always* better
than other options, particularly public schools.
From my original post:
>>>
This is *not* to say that either of these options [homeschool & private
school]
are wrong. It only
shows that the situations and the choices are not clear-cut, and depend
on a large number of factors--not the least of which is the personality
and temperment of the child.
>>>>>
(Just happened to have this song playing as I was typing this:)
"I'd keep the tyke away from school and tutor him myself,
Keep him from the poison of the crowd.
But then again pristine isolation might not be the best idea
It's not good trying to immortalize youself."
--Lou Reed "Beginning of a Great Adventure"
--
Brother Blaze
The Unintentional Monk
=========
M Blaze Miskulin
> Homeschooling
> only deprives a child of these things IF the parents do not find any
> other social outlets for their child. MANY areas have social groups
> for homeschoolers, including group learning time, fireld trips and the
> like. Scouting or other social groups are highly appropriate, and most
> states require school districts to allow homeschoolers acseess to
> extracurricular activities.
Point conceded. I overstated this point, and was wrong. Sorry.
> The artificial social structure of a public school includes only
> interacting with people yur own age, and only socializing with 'peers'
> who have the same intests as yourself.
I'd not say that this is the case. The schools I went to had an age
range of 6 years. (1-6, and 8-12). At a young age even a 4-year range is
significant.
As for only socializing with peers who have the same interests? Define
that.
Social (friend-like) interaction among any age group is with those who
have similar interests. In regards to other types of social (community)
interaction, the students are placed in classes, go on field-trips, and
interact with all the other students who don't have similar interests.
I don't see the difference here.
> The myth that homeschooled children are deprived of social interaction
> is perpetuated by the image of the ultra-religious family who
> homeschools in a bunker, without allowing their children to see the
> outside world.
I was taking my view from talking to friends who homeschool their
children, and observing the children of co-workers and aquaintences who
homeschool. Admittedly, most of these are from rural areas where the
kids don't have neighbors to play with (well, the neighbors are likely
to be a mile to two down the road, not a feasible distance for a child).
> The only thing homeschooling dreprives a child of, is the
> clique-ridden, sequestered enviroment of public school.
As opposed to the clique-ridden, sequestered work environment they are
likely to enter into when they enter the work force?
Matthew T. Russotto
Jim M. Pierce <dji...@nospambellsouth.nett> wrote:
}
} "Noah Singman" wrote:
}[]"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
}[]test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
}[]defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the only
}[]reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
}[]trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have otherwise."
}
} One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
}shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
}to the test.
My old Mac II and my Stylewriter took a long time to print out
the three-point test containing pseudocode for every relevant
algorithm in the book in three point type. But, it came in real handy
taking a test in computer algorithms, where the devil is in the details.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Jacob Sommer
<lotsa snipped stuff, and the snips I feel need no discussion from me>
> Brother Blaze:
> > > Having all
> > > of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
> > > for the student.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
> > through.
> > It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
>
> In my experience (two public grade/middle/high schools one public
> college) it does seem like the norm. And, while anecdotal, the same is
> true for the friends from other schools I've talk to. It's not all up
> to the student. As a teacher, I (and the other teachers I know) send
> students to other teachers who have more knowledge on a topic. And
> again, they only have to walk down the hall. I have yet to run across a
> teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
> time to help a student who asked.
Now, FWIW there is occasionally an exception that proves the norm.
There was one teacher at the local community college who taught some
accounting classes. She never would take time to explain in class
beyond the time she allotted. She kept no office hours. If someone
asked her for help, she would point them to the Learning Center and
tell them to go there for an accouting tutor (which meant me half the
time).
She is the *only* teacher I know of who was ever that bad.
> Michael Moy:
> > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > our
> > high-schools given this availability.
>
> And we don't?
<list snippola>
> Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
> their own?
I was in public school thru 8th grade and then went to private skewl.
However I do consider myself to be mostly a public school student.
My education included writing, public speaking, basic grounding in
science, art, singing, drama, a little ballet, history beyond the
borders of the USA, basic anthropology, enough French to embarrass
myself in front of anybody who really knows the language, math thru
basic calculus. I also picked up some basic organizational skills
which I have not been given enough opportunity to use but have done
quite well with.
> Michael Moy:
> > 1) I was answering your comment above. College-level textbooks provide
> > lots of areas and ideas which they can further research. In fact, you
> > could get a lot more ideas and areas to look into from reading
> > through
> > textbooks than you could from sitting with a teacher given that you
> > can
> > read considerably faster than you can listen.
>
> Speed has nothing to do with it. For one thing, textbooks tend to focus
> on small areas of study. A human brain can connect events and
> information which seem to be unconnected. My WWII text book talked about
> Monte Casino. It said absolutely nothing about the Sihks (the people
> who actually ascended the mountain to take out the Nazis). A teacher
> informed me about that. A textbook won't mention good fiction books to
> read on a subject. A textbook won't say "If you want to know about what
> Vietnam was like, go talk to Ralph, He was there." A textbook can't
> look at the doodles on you notebook and say "I see you're interested in
> robots, have you read any Asimov?"
>
> You can't ask a textbook questions. You can't get a textbook to explain
> a point more clearly. A textbook can't adapt its examples and metaphors
> to ones which are familiar to a student.
To elaborate: a textbook does not change unless you deface the pages; it
is static. A teacher is dynamic and can interact with you, respond to
you. Books with indexes can do this in a limited fashion but only if you
know enough to use the index...
Jacob
Michael Moy
>
> Eleri wrote:
>
> > Homeschooling
> > only deprives a child of these things IF the parents do not find any
> > other social outlets for their child. MANY areas have social groups
> > for homeschoolers, including group learning time, fireld trips and the
> > like. Scouting or other social groups are highly appropriate, and most
> > states require school districts to allow homeschoolers acseess to
> > extracurricular activities.
>
> Point conceded. I overstated this point, and was wrong. Sorry.
>
> > The artificial social structure of a public school includes only
> > interacting with people yur own age, and only socializing with 'peers'
> > who have the same intests as yourself.
>
> I'd not say that this is the case. The schools I went to had an age
> range of 6 years. (1-6, and 8-12). At a young age even a 4-year range is
> significant.
This is rare from my experience. The typical setup in my state is 1-5
for elementary, 5-8 or 9 for middle school/junior high and 9/10-12 for
high-school.
> > The myth that homeschooled children are deprived of social interaction
> > is perpetuated by the image of the ultra-religious family who
> > homeschools in a bunker, without allowing their children to see the
> > outside world.
>
> I was taking my view from talking to friends who homeschool their
> children, and observing the children of co-workers and aquaintences who
> homeschool. Admittedly, most of these are from rural areas where the
> kids don't have neighbors to play with (well, the neighbors are likely
> to be a mile to two down the road, not a feasible distance for a child).
I don't see that this is always a big problem. Look at the Colfaxes
who moved to a very remote area. Two have Harvard Phds and they seem
to have done fine.
> > The only thing homeschooling dreprives a child of, is the
> > clique-ridden, sequestered enviroment of public school.
>
> As opposed to the clique-ridden, sequestered work environment they are
> likely to enter into when they enter the work force?
I'm sorry that you have to work in such an environment. There are lots
of
interesting work environments where employees are well-cared for with
lots
of flexibility.
Michael Moy
>
> Me:
>
> > > Yes, the student does have access to all these teachers. He may not be
> > > assigned to their classes, but I have yet to meet a teacher who wouldn't
> > > take some time to help out a student who wasn't in their class. There
> > > is a vast pool of knowledge in a full school, and all the student has to
> > > do is walk down the hall to get to it.
>
> Michael Moy:
>
> > Then why don't the students coming from public schools know everything
> > that all of their teachers know?
>
> Please show me where in my posts I have stated that the student will
> learn every thing that he has access to? I *never* said that. Again,
> please do not take my comments and stretch them out of proportion.
Then why state that all this is available? That is the implication.
> Michael Moy:
>
> > Teachers with a full load can be quite busy and are entitled to their
> > breaks
> > during the day. I didn't know that this was available when I went to
> > school
> > nor was it advertised.
>
> Well then, I feel sorry for you. Mostly because you didn't think to ask
> questions. I've only been in two public school sysytems (one as
> student, both as a teacher). In both of them, the students take time
> from their recess, lunch, study halls, or after class to come to
> teachers and ask for help. "I'm doing a project for science, can you
> help me paint the display?" When I get to something I don't know, I
> send them to the appropriate teacher. The other teachers do the same.
> Common practice.
Perhaps in your district. I spent my spare high-school time at the local
universities as wse had open campus. If you didn't have a class, you
didn't
have to be in school.
> Me:
> > > Having all
> > > of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
> > > for the student.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
> > through.
> > It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
>
> In my experience (two public grade/middle/high schools one public
> college) it does seem like the norm. And, while anecdotal, the same is
> true for the friends from other schools I've talk to. It's not all up
> to the student. As a teacher, I (and the other teachers I know) send
> students to other teachers who have more knowledge on a topic. And
> again, they only have to walk down the hall. I have yet to run across a
> teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
> time to help a student who asked.
Perhaps a little time but how about asking for something involving
several hours of time?
> Me:
> > > Each educator brings new ideas, new information, new
> > > possibilities to the learning process.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > You can't possibly absorb all of those ideas though and you can't take
> > advantage of them all as your strawman pointed to.
>
> Sorry, but I don't know where you get this idea that I ever said a
> person would take advantage of everything. Again I *NEVER* said this.
> I made no strawman. You are building one on my behalf by inferring
> extreme meanings to my words. Saying a library is a good resource does
> not imply that one must read every book. Saying a restaurant has good
> food does not imply that one must eat every item on the menu. And
> saying that a school is full of people with information and experiences
> to share does not imply that a student must learn all of it. I have no
> idea where you get this idea, but *stop* attributing it to me.
It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
> Michael Moy:
> > The student needs to understand the choices and their availability. And
> > needs
> > to have the time to find the appropriate specialist, the time to speak
> > to
> > said specialist and then the time to pursue the choices.
>
> And this differs from going to a library and reading it in a book how?
> I don't know what kind of kids you deal with, but the several hundred I
> deal with are generally astute enough to know that when they want to
> know how to draw or sculpt, they go to the art teacher. When they want
> to know about knights' armor, they go to the history teacher--if it's
> not his area, he points them to the correct teacher. If they want to
> know how to do a graph, they go to the math teacher. If they want to
> build a chariot for "Roman Days" they go to the shop teacher.
What do they do if they want to know how to milk a cow or understand how
database query engines work or understand differential equations or
understand integration in elementary school?
> Time to find the specialist? That's as easy as "Mr Miskulin? Do you
> know anything about armor?" "Yes, some, what do you want to know?" or
> "Do you know anything about differential calculus?" "No. I don't. Why
> don't you go talk to Mr. Davis." That's all of about 15 seconds. How
> long would it take to go to the library or book store, find the section
> on the topic, and look through the book to find the answer to the
> specific question?
Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
> Textbooks were the option you promoted, correct?
They are one. We use private school classes and tutors too.
> As for time to do it? That's what study halls are for. And I have
> several students each day that give up their recess and/or lunch time
> (voluntarily) to work on projects--both for school and for home.
I though that study halls were for chatting.
> Michael Moy:
> > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > our
> > high-schools given this availability.
>
> And we don't?
Spend some time reading Education Week, or the education newsgroup
or the ABC education chat (teachers, parents, students, college
professors, AP mailing lists, etc.)
> I learned: science (physics and biology), literature (American, English,
> world), speech (public address, interpretive reading (3 years of speach
> training and competition on the forensics team)), drama (design, tech,
> and performance), art (drawing, photography, casting and metal-woking,
> pottery, painting), music (symphonic band, marching band, jazz ensemble,
> color guard, choir), newpaper techniques (journalistic writing, editing,
> layout), graphic design ((yearbook) layout, montage, continutity)),
> athletics (track and field), creative writing (short fiction, poetry,
> drama), carpentry (scenic carpentry, woodworking, drafting and
> blue-print reading), law (mock trial).
>
> And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head from my 4
> years of high school.
Is this what the average graduate learns?
> Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
> their own?
>
> And this doesn't include the core classes (basic English, math, science,
> etc) or all the little bits of information, stories, anecdotes,
> techniques, references, opinions, viewpoints, discussions, and other
> gleanings I gathered from all the teachers over the course of 12 years.
>
> Ask anyone who knows me. I'm sure they'll agree that I'm a rather
> well-rounded individual. And while everyone may not have been involved
> in as much as me, many of my fellow students were, and a number did far
> more than I did.
Why do we have so many reported problems in our schools then? Why does
it take
12 years to learn arithmetic and algebra and calculus if you're lucky?
Why
do statistics show poor reading and math skills (at least in our state).
> Me:
> > > I've given a solid statement that 25 teachers provide more
> > > possiblilties, more information, and more insight than one. It's basic
> > > common sense.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking advantage of
> > it.
>
> The possibilities and opportunities are there whether the student takes
> advantage of them or not. As for time-sharing? You seem to think that
> teachers are unwilling to make time for their students. Teachers are in
> the business because they love to teach. Their purpose and their job
> are to teach students. Every teacher I know (which is somewhere over
> 100, I would estimate) will take time or make time to give a student
> help (even one from outside their class).
If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
time.
> And...you won't learn anything from all the books in the library if you
> don't take advantage of them.
This is true. But they generally more available than teachers are.
> Michael Moy:
> > 1) I was answering your comment above. College-level textbooks provide
> > lots of areas and ideas which they can further research. In fact, you
> > could get a lot more ideas and areas to look into from reading
> > through
> > textbooks than you could from sitting with a teacher given that you
> > can
> > read considerably faster than you can listen.
>
> Speed has nothing to do with it. For one thing, textbooks tend to focus
> on small areas of study.
Perhaps the in-depth ones do. The 101-type books are quite broad in
scope.
> A human brain can connect events and
> information which seem to be unconnected. My WWII text book talked about
> Monte Casino. It said absolutely nothing about the Sihks (the people
> who actually ascended the mountain to take out the Nazis). A teacher
> informed me about that. A textbook won't mention good fiction books to
> read on a subject. A textbook won't say "If you want to know about what
> Vietnam was like, go talk to Ralph, He was there." A textbook can't
> look at the doodles on you notebook and say "I see you're interested in
> robots, have you read any Asimov?"
I was answering your post about places to find things to research. I did
not say that you exclusively use them to do research.
> You can't ask a textbook questions. You can't get a textbook to explain
> a point more clearly. A textbook can't adapt its examples and metaphors
> to ones which are familiar to a student.
As I sai, it's an excellent place to get ideas for research.
> Michael Moy:
> > 2) These ideas can then be explored via other means; experts if
> > necessary.
>
> Why not just go to the ones who know in the first place? Use the
> textbooks as reference and supplimental information. What makes a
> printed word more true or more right than a spoken word?
We do do that. As I said several times, it's a good way to find topics
to research.
> Michael Moy:
> > I have borrowing privileges to 2.5 million volumes and have usually been
> > able to find something on just about any subject that I've been
> > interested
> > in. I can do internet searches too which can turn up areas to look into.
>
> Okay.
>
> "I wan't to do a watercolor painting where the sky has clouds with the
> texture like this piece of coffee-stained cotton."
What does wan't mean? At any rate, I'd look for an art expert if I had
this
type of question. Remember that art and music are one of the first
things
cut in times of budget difficulties and that these things may not be
available
to students. In my state, schools currently have no constitutional
funding
source and it looks like it will be a while before they find one. If
they
don't find one, the schools will close. Pink slips have already gone out
in
some districts.
> "I'm looking for a story to read for my speach class. It has to be less
> than 8 minutes long, and appropriate for high-school students. I want
> something that's light-hearted but not funny, and has a serious topic
> underneath it. And it has to have at least 3 characters in it."
What is a speach class? I took five years of speech training in a
Toastmasters-type environment and could probably come up with something
rather easily.
> "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
> *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
I wouldn't go with fiction on this subject. We've used the WW Norton
book for American history. We've also used the Hakim books.
> You go look through your 2.5 million volumes. I'll walk down the hall
> and ask the art, English, and social studies teachers.
Fine. You have your method; we have ours.
> Me:
> > >There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
> > >that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
> > regardless of what you do or do not concede.
>
> Once again: I have not said that homeschooling is wrong. I have not
> said that homeschooled students aren't getting an education. Never said
> it. I don't doubt that homeschooling is right for some people. I
> adamantly fight the notion that it is *automatically and always* better
> than other options, particularly public schools.
I didn't say that either. I support public, private and home schools
though
I'm not all that happy with the funding approaches currently out there.
I would say that the majority of home schoolers have no problems with
public and private schools but have seen the benefits of home schooling
(it's funny that a lot of people with teaching certificates home school
their kids even with all the resources that you talk about).
Joyce Haslam
> > Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking
> > advantage of it.
> The possibilities and opportunities are there whether the student
> takes advantage of them or not. As for time-sharing? You seem to
> think that teachers are unwilling to make time for their students.
> Teachers are in the business because they love to teach. Their
> purpose and their job are to teach students. Every teacher I know
> (which is somewhere over 100, I would estimate) will take time or
> make time to give a student help (even one from outside their
> class).
I'm not certain what you mean by time-sharing.
English schools have been forced by budget cuts to hire part-time
staff, who frequently manage to cobble together a full-timers salary
(though not benefits) by taking several part-time teaching jobs.
These teachers would love to be in the staff room at lunch time,
breaks, and after school, available to answer questions from all and
sundry (most of them - they didn't go into teaching for the money).
But they are spending that time travelling from one school to another
instead. They are not available to the students at any of their
schools except during class time.
Joyce (saddened).
--
Joyce Haslam - a Texan with British citizenship
Larisa Migachyov
Distribution:
M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
>
> Michael Moy:
>
> > Teachers with a full load can be quite busy and are entitled to their
> > breaks
> > during the day. I didn't know that this was available when I went to
> > school
> > nor was it advertised.
>
> Well then, I feel sorry for you. Mostly because you didn't think to ask
> questions. I've only been in two public school sysytems (one as
> student, both as a teacher). In both of them, the students take time
> from their recess, lunch, study halls, or after class to come to
> teachers and ask for help. "I'm doing a project for science, can you
> help me paint the display?" When I get to something I don't know, I
> send them to the appropriate teacher. The other teachers do the same.
> Common practice.
Strange. I have never asked a teacher for help. My parents always helped
me with projects - painting, or whatever. Perhaps, the teachers would
have helped me if I asked; but they were so busy, and I was so busy, that
asking my parents was a simpler alternative. And this was a smallish
private school with 500 students and *very* good teachers.
> > The student needs to understand the choices and their availability. And
> > needs
> > to have the time to find the appropriate specialist, the time to speak
> > to
> > said specialist and then the time to pursue the choices.
>
> And this differs from going to a library and reading it in a book how?
> I don't know what kind of kids you deal with, but the several hundred I
> deal with are generally astute enough to know that when they want to
> know how to draw or sculpt, they go to the art teacher. When they want
> to know about knights' armor, they go to the history teacher--if it's
> not his area, he points them to the correct teacher. If they want to
> know how to do a graph, they go to the math teacher. If they want to
> build a chariot for "Roman Days" they go to the shop teacher.
>
> Time to find the specialist? That's as easy as "Mr Miskulin? Do you
> know anything about armor?" "Yes, some, what do you want to know?" or
> "Do you know anything about differential calculus?" "No. I don't. Why
> don't you go talk to Mr. Davis." That's all of about 15 seconds. How
> long would it take to go to the library or book store, find the section
> on the topic, and look through the book to find the answer to the
> specific question?
I imagine I was unusually fortunate in having very knowledgeable parents.
I would have done very well in homeschooling, had they taken that option.
Such questions as you mention above have always been directed to my father
- and I have never known him to be unable to answer and to give me a book
on the relevant subject.
> Textbooks were the option you promoted, correct?
>
> As for time to do it? That's what study halls are for. And I have
> several students each day that give up their recess and/or lunch time
> (voluntarily) to work on projects--both for school and for home.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > our
> > high-schools given this availability.
>
> And we don't?
>
> I learned: science (physics and biology), literature (American, English,
> world), speech (public address, interpretive reading (3 years of speach
> training and competition on the forensics team)), drama (design, tech,
> and performance), art (drawing, photography, casting and metal-woking,
> pottery, painting), music (symphonic band, marching band, jazz ensemble,
> color guard, choir), newpaper techniques (journalistic writing, editing,
> layout), graphic design ((yearbook) layout, montage, continutity)),
> athletics (track and field), creative writing (short fiction, poetry,
> drama), carpentry (scenic carpentry, woodworking, drafting and
> blue-print reading), law (mock trial).
>
> And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head from my 4
> years of high school.
>
> Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
> their own?
Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
the required information. Sometimes, one should go to the library, find a
relevant book, and absorb information this way. My teachers were
friendly, knowledgeable people. I was on very good terms with them, and
learned a lot in their classes. But the one skill that came in useful to
me in college and graduate school was the skill my father taught me - how
to find and absorb information on any given topic. I can give you a
similar list of things that I learned in private school. Some of these
things I've forgotten; some I never got a chance to learn (I never was
very athletic, and thus could not master any sport); but it is a fairly
similar list. As an engineer, I will have to learn many new skills over
the course of my career; some of those skills have nothing to do with what
i learned in school or even in college. It is the ability to find a book,
read it, and learn from it, that I consider the most valuable; and no
school that I know of teaches it.
> Speed has nothing to do with it. For one thing, textbooks tend to focus
> on small areas of study. A human brain can connect events and
> information which seem to be unconnected. My WWII text book talked about
> Monte Casino. It said absolutely nothing about the Sihks (the people
> who actually ascended the mountain to take out the Nazis). A teacher
> informed me about that. A textbook won't mention good fiction books to
> read on a subject. A textbook won't say "If you want to know about what
> Vietnam was like, go talk to Ralph, He was there." A textbook can't
> look at the doodles on you notebook and say "I see you're interested in
> robots, have you read any Asimov?"
Well, that's what human contact in general is for. But I agree - one must
have contact with knowledgeable people. Alas, I have seen elementary
school teachers who know nothing beyond their subject; a literature
teacher who has never heard of Swinburne; a mathematics teacher who does
not know how many minutes are in a degree; etc. As for good fiction books
to read on a subject, I have always made friends with librarians; but the
majority of my reading was self-selected.
> You can't ask a textbook questions. You can't get a textbook to explain
> a point more clearly. A textbook can't adapt its examples and metaphors
> to ones which are familiar to a student.
Sure; and in elementary school, it is crucial that a teacher be there to
explain stuff. An elementary school kid cannot be expected to just read
the textbook and absorb the information - that's too advanced for them.
In high school, however, one must start preparing for the working world,
where nobody will pre-chew your information for you. Teachers become more
like guides than like pre-processors.
> Michael Moy:
> > 2) These ideas can then be explored via other means; experts if
> > necessary.
>
> Why not just go to the ones who know in the first place? Use the
> textbooks as reference and supplimental information. What makes a
> printed word more true or more right than a spoken word?
Not more true or more right; only more commonly used.
> Michael Moy:
> > I have borrowing privileges to 2.5 million volumes and have usually been
> > able to find something on just about any subject that I've been
> > interested
> > in. I can do internet searches too which can turn up areas to look into.
>
> Okay.
>
> "I wan't to do a watercolor painting where the sky has clouds with the
> texture like this piece of coffee-stained cotton."
To do that, I go to the nearest bookshop or library, find a fairly
comprehensive book on watercolor techniques, and find the one I need. And
before you sneer, this is exactly what I am engaged in now, in teaching
myself the skills of pen and ink drawing. (no, I don't expect to become a
great artist; but I am enjoying myself just as much as I was when I was
taking an art class in high school, which did *not* go into such a
specialized area and which was *not* geared for talentless types like me)
> "I'm looking for a story to read for my speach class. It has to be less
> than 8 minutes long, and appropriate for high-school students. I want
> something that's light-hearted but not funny, and has a serious topic
> underneath it. And it has to have at least 3 characters in it."
This would be a good question to ask on a newsgroup or to ask a librarian.
Or a good way to while away a pleasant afternoon, reading all the stories
that I *think* fit the criteria given.
> "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
> *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
Again, a good librarian or newsgroup can answer this question better than
a harried, overworked literature teacher. Or, a quick look through one's
own library can provide the answer. A teacher is a good resource - but
one must also learn to utilize other ones.
> You go look through your 2.5 million volumes. I'll walk down the hall
> and ask the art, English, and social studies teachers.
But in looking through said 2.5 million volumes, mightn't one learn more
than said art, English, and social studies teachers could provide? In one
case, you are accessing the sum total of human knowledge; in the other,
you are asking one human being who might or might not be able to answer.
> Michael Moy:
> > Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
> > regardless of what you do or do not concede.
>
> Once again: I have not said that homeschooling is wrong. I have not
> said that homeschooled students aren't getting an education. Never said
> it. I don't doubt that homeschooling is right for some people. I
> adamantly fight the notion that it is *automatically and always* better
> than other options, particularly public schools.
Oh, I agree on that. But *on average*, homeschoolers are better educated
than those who go to public school.
Asking a teacher is a good way for a child to seek information. Finding
said information oneself is a good way for an adult to seek information.
Admittedly, one must have a teacher for those things that are not easily
described in a book - music, languages, etc. But when I had to find, for
my research, information on intravascular pressure measurement, I did not
go to a teacher - I went to the library and looked it up.
Michael Moy
>
> M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
>
> <lotsa snipped stuff, and the snips I feel need no discussion from me>
> > Brother Blaze:
> > > > of this information, experience, networking, etc, available opens doors
> > > > for the student.
> >
> > Michael Moy:
> > > It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
> > > through.
> > > It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
> >
> > In my experience (two public grade/middle/high schools one public
> > college) it does seem like the norm. And, while anecdotal, the same is
> > true for the friends from other schools I've talk to. It's not all up
> > to the student. As a teacher, I (and the other teachers I know) send
> > students to other teachers who have more knowledge on a topic. And
> > again, they only have to walk down the hall. I have yet to run across a
> > teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
> > time to help a student who asked.
>
> There was one teacher at the local community college who taught some
> accounting classes. She never would take time to explain in class
> beyond the time she allotted. She kept no office hours. If someone
> asked her for help, she would point them to the Learning Center and
> tell them to go there for an accouting tutor (which meant me half the
> time).
>
> She is the *only* teacher I know of who was ever that bad.
If you're teaching a full load in school, though, when does the teacher
have time for this? And at the elementary level, are these experts
available?
> > Michael Moy:
> > > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > > our
> > > high-schools given this availability.
> >
> > And we don't?
>
> <list snippola>
> > Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
> > their own?
>
> I was in public school thru 8th grade and then went to private skewl.
> However I do consider myself to be mostly a public school student.
> My education included writing, public speaking, basic grounding in
> science, art, singing, drama, a little ballet, history beyond the
> borders of the USA, basic anthropology, enough French to embarrass
> myself in front of anybody who really knows the language, math thru
> basic calculus. I also picked up some basic organizational skills
> which I have not been given enough opportunity to use but have done
> quite well with.
My experience was quite different. Most of the interesting things that
I learned were from wandering around the Barker Engineering Library
at MIT and the computer time-sharing centers at Boston College. I was
quite lopsided though a liberal arts program evened things out.
> > Michael Moy:
> > > 1) I was answering your comment above. College-level textbooks provide
> > > lots of areas and ideas which they can further research. In fact, you
> > > could get a lot more ideas and areas to look into from reading
> > > through
> > > textbooks than you could from sitting with a teacher given that you
> > > can
> > > read considerably faster than you can listen.
> >
> > Speed has nothing to do with it. For one thing, textbooks tend to focus
> > on small areas of study. A human brain can connect events and
> > information which seem to be unconnected. My WWII text book talked about
> > Monte Casino. It said absolutely nothing about the Sihks (the people
> > who actually ascended the mountain to take out the Nazis). A teacher
> > informed me about that. A textbook won't mention good fiction books to
> > read on a subject. A textbook won't say "If you want to know about what
> > Vietnam was like, go talk to Ralph, He was there." A textbook can't
> > look at the doodles on you notebook and say "I see you're interested in
> > robots, have you read any Asimov?"
> >
> > You can't ask a textbook questions. You can't get a textbook to explain
> > a point more clearly. A textbook can't adapt its examples and metaphors
> > to ones which are familiar to a student.
>
> To elaborate: a textbook does not change unless you deface the pages; it
> is static.
At one of the university libraries that I use, I frequently see multiple
revisions of textbooks. So textbooks do change. Though some of the
oldies
are truly goodies. Introduction to Analysis by Landau from the early
1900s
is a classic that was aimed at middle-school kids back then but that
would
most likely be used by undergraduate math seniors today.
> A teacher is dynamic and can interact with you, respond to
> you. Books with indexes can do this in a limited fashion but only if you
> know enough to use the index...
My original point was that books are great for find ideas to do research
on. And some books are interactive in that they have web sites for
discussion
and for ancillaries.
Michael Moy
>
> In article <37077F01...@chorus.net>,
> > > Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking
> > > advantage of it.
>
> > The possibilities and opportunities are there whether the student
> > takes advantage of them or not. As for time-sharing? You seem to
> > think that teachers are unwilling to make time for their students.
> > Teachers are in the business because they love to teach. Their
> > purpose and their job are to teach students. Every teacher I know
> > (which is somewhere over 100, I would estimate) will take time or
> > make time to give a student help (even one from outside their
> > class).
>
The teacher has to spend some time with each student. The teacher can't
spend large amounts of one-on-one time with every student.
> English schools have been forced by budget cuts to hire part-time
> staff, who frequently manage to cobble together a full-timers salary
> (though not benefits) by taking several part-time teaching jobs.
>
> These teachers would love to be in the staff room at lunch time,
> breaks, and after school, available to answer questions from all and
> sundry (most of them - they didn't go into teaching for the money).
> But they are spending that time travelling from one school to another
> instead. They are not available to the students at any of their
> schools except during class time.
The schools in our state currently don't have funding. Most have enough
to get through this school year but there isn't any money currently for
next year. Construction projects have been halted as contractors have
no assurance of being paid. Teachers have been pink-slipped in some
districts and more will be if we have no funding solution in the next
five
weeks. We've spent 15 months and have no legeslative/executive solution
though we've eliminated income taxes and gambling as sources of funding.
M Blaze Miskulin
> Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
> In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
> the required information. Sometimes, one should go to the library, find a
> relevant book, and absorb information this way.
I'm not saying that research and learning should exclude books. Not in
the least. I'm saying that books should not be considered the only, or
even the primary source of information on all topics.
And asking a person for an help is not having the answer "spoon fed" to
you. It's refering to a resource. A resource with the ability to
adapt: the original interactive medium.
> A teacher is a good resource - but
> one must also learn to utilize other ones.
Undeniably. I wouldn't say otherwise.
> Asking a teacher is a good way for a child to seek information. Finding
> said information oneself is a good way for an adult to seek information.
Asking someone who knows ("teacher" does not restrict itself to
"employee of the school district") is a good way for adults to seek
information and learn skills.
M Blaze Miskulin
> > > Then why don't the students coming from public schools know everything
> > > that all of their teachers know?
Me:
> > Please show me where in my posts I have stated that the student will
> > learn every thing that he has access to? I *never* said that. Again,
> > please do not take my comments and stretch them out of proportion.
Michael Moy:
> Then why state that all this is available? That is the implication.
No. It is not. Availability of a thing in no way implies that its
entirety must be utilized. There is no implication. You have
(incorrectly) inferred that.
Me:
> > I have yet to run across a
> > teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
> > time to help a student who asked.
Michael Moy:
> Perhaps a little time but how about asking for something involving
> several hours of time?
I, myself, have left school at 8:00 at night, having stayed to help a
student. I regularly see half a dozen teachers in their rooms at 5:00
or 6:00 at night helping students.
Me:
[again: availability equals requirement of use]
> > I have no
> > idea where you get this idea, but *stop* attributing it to me.
Michael Moy:
> It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
No. It isn't. It is something you have inferred. Availability equals
choice. That is the only thing I have said. Greater availability equals
greater choice, and greater potential for learning.
Michael Moy:
> What do they do if they want to know how to milk a cow or understand how
> database query engines work or understand differential equations or
> understand integration in elementary school?
Milk a cow? If they don't already know themselves, they can turn around
and ask at least 10 of their classmates at any given time (we're in
dairy country). Database query engines? That would be Mr. Zilker, room
218 (right next to the art room). Differential equations? That would
be Ms. Rosemeyer, room 214 (other side of the art room).
Me:
> > Textbooks were the option you promoted, correct?
Michael Moy:
> They are one. We use private school classes and tutors too.
Private school classes. Tutors.
Those would be teachers. Teachers other than the parents. Isn't this
the part of public school that I've been talking about; several teachers
each with their own specialties, information, and views to add to the
education?
Michael Moy:
> > > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > > our
> > > high-schools given this availability.
Me:
> > And we don't?
[snip]
Michael Moy:
> Why do we have so many reported problems in our schools then? Why does
> it take
> 12 years to learn arithmetic and algebra and calculus if you're lucky?
> Why
> do statistics show poor reading and math skills (at least in our state).
Statistics? Hmmm...how does that quote go? "Lies, damn lies, and
statistics". What do those statistics measure? What is the formula used?
The method of measurement? Who is tested--and how--in order to form
these statistics? And how are the conclusions reached based on these
statistics.
How many people have a use for algebra and calculus? And how many need
to know it before graduating high school? Those students who do need
such advanced study can and do receive special tutoring, advanced
classes or independent study under the supervision of a teacher. But
we're not talking about special kids here, we're talking about the
average range of students. Algebra, trig, and geometry are rather ample
for the average person to have a training in mathematics, understand its
use and methods, and know where to find the information if it should be
needed later.
Me:
> Every teacher I know (which is somewhere over
> 100, I would estimate) will take time or make time to give a student
> help (even one from outside their class).
Michael Moy:
> If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
> time.
Hmmm.... 100 teachers, 150 students, one hour each (oh boy, a story
problem!) that would be: One and a half hours. And chances are that
several of those students have questions about the same things. They
can be helped together. That cuts down the total time. And in a school
atmosphere, there are also other students that can be asked for help.
That cuts it down even more. Is this one hour a day? A week? Now rather
than chatting in study hall, the student could (God forbid!) study: use
this time to ask questions of the study hall teacher, go to another
teacher, get help from other students. Or use the library.
> > And...you won't learn anything from all the books in the library if you
> > don't take advantage of them.
>
> This is true. But they generally more available than teachers are.
Really? In a public school setting, there are teachers in every room
virtually every hour of the day. That's pretty accessible.
> > "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
> > *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
>
> I wouldn't go with fiction on this subject. We've used the WW Norton
> book for American history. We've also used the Hakim books.
So you'd ignore or reject the student's request? Why? What if what the
child is interested in isn't facts about a specific revolution or even
statistics and trends on revolutions in general, but insight into the
emotions and thoughts and personal ramifications of theoretical
individuals in a theoretical revolution? Fiction, with its first-person
or third-person omniscient viewpoint would be a good way to bring these
items together in a way which is easy to follow. (Personally, I'd
recommend "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" [Heinlien] "Bio of a Space Tyrant"
[Piers Anthony] and/or "Mars Trilogy (Red, Green, Blue)" [Kim Stanley
Robinson]. Each has a different view from idealistic to cynical, and
each offers valid information and insight into the different ideals and
problems of a revolution. And they're all a good read.)
I will refrain from replying to your wise-ass comments on the two minor
typos in my post.
Michael Moy
>
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> > In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
> > the required information. Sometimes, one should go to the library, find a
> > relevant book, and absorb information this way.
>
> the least. I'm saying that books should not be considered the only, or
> even the primary source of information on all topics.
>
> And asking a person for an help is not having the answer "spoon fed" to
> you. It's refering to a resource. A resource with the ability to
> adapt: the original interactive medium.
>
> > one must also learn to utilize other ones.
>
>
> > said information oneself is a good way for an adult to seek information.
>
> "employee of the school district") is a good way for adults to seek
> information and learn skills.
There are times when this doesn't work. Such as when you are creating
original work or when you are doing work on something that noone has
ever done or are creating a new product.
There are times when asking someone else isn't the most efficient way
to get things done in terms of the labor cost of the person asking and
the person being asked in addition to any management types along the
way.
Michael Moy
> No. It is not. Availability of a thing in no way implies that its
> entirety must be utilized. There is no implication. You have
> (incorrectly) inferred that.
What percentage of this availability is used?
> Me:
> > > I have yet to run across a
> > > teacher--even the ones I considered "bad" teachers--who wouldn't take
> > > time to help a student who asked.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > Perhaps a little time but how about asking for something involving
> > several hours of time?
>
> I, myself, have left school at 8:00 at night, having stayed to help a
> student. I regularly see half a dozen teachers in their rooms at 5:00
> or 6:00 at night helping students.
Do you do this every night? For all of your students?
> Me:
> [again: availability equals requirement of use]
> > > I have no
> > > idea where you get this idea, but *stop* attributing it to me.
>
> Michael Moy:
> > It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
>
> No. It isn't. It is something you have inferred. Availability equals
> choice. That is the only thing I have said. Greater availability equals
> greater choice, and greater potential for learning.
As I've said, you have to take it.
> Michael Moy:
> > What do they do if they want to know how to milk a cow or understand how
> > database query engines work or understand differential equations or
> > understand integration in elementary school?
>
> Milk a cow? If they don't already know themselves, they can turn around
> and ask at least 10 of their classmates at any given time (we're in
> dairy country).
And you assume that this is common across the country?
> Database query engines? That would be Mr. Zilker, room
> 218 (right next to the art room).
You have an expert on database query engines? I read the AP Computer
Science mailing list and most of the teachers there don't have CS
degrees. They know about programming and perhaps something about data
structures but I have heard of no experts on database query engines.
I've worked on these and there aren't a lot of experts in the world
on these things. The main work on these are in Seattle, San Francisco,
Almaden or Armonk (not sure where IBM does their query engine work on
DB2) and a little in New England. Perhaps you could ask him about how
you implement dynamic query optimization and why you would want to do
this.
> Differential equations? That would
> be Ms. Rosemeyer, room 214 (other side of the art room).
You have this available in your elementary schools?
> Me:
> > > Textbooks were the option you promoted, correct?
>
> Michael Moy:
> > They are one. We use private school classes and tutors too.
>
> Private school classes. Tutors.
>
> Those would be teachers. Teachers other than the parents. Isn't this
> the part of public school that I've been talking about; several teachers
> each with their own specialties, information, and views to add to the
> education?
We don't use public schools. We use what works. Home schooling isn't
about ideology. It's about what works for the kids.
> Michael Moy:
> > > > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> > > > our
> > > > high-schools given this availability.
>
> Me:
> > > And we don't?
>
> [snip]
>
> Michael Moy:
> > Why do we have so many reported problems in our schools then? Why does
> > it take
> > 12 years to learn arithmetic and algebra and calculus if you're lucky?
> > Why
> > do statistics show poor reading and math skills (at least in our state).
>
> Statistics? Hmmm...how does that quote go? "Lies, damn lies, and
> statistics". What do those statistics measure? What is the formula used?
> The method of measurement? Who is tested--and how--in order to form
> these statistics? And how are the conclusions reached based on these
> statistics.
We have state standards and the results are on the web. They are widely
reported in the local newspapers. They show weak proficiency levels in
math and reading. Our state traditionally scores in the top ten
(frequently
in the top 5) in national comparisons such as the recent NAEP reading
evaluations.
> How many people have a use for algebra and calculus? And how many need
> to know it before graduating high school?
Algebra is the gateway subject. It opens up the sciences. It opens up
business courses. It opens up computer science. It provides the ability
to understand interest rates from a finance perspective. It makes
learning
marketing and accounting easier. It makes it easier to learn many
technical fields. Algebra is basic. I use it daily. Calculus shows that
you can do difficult things to college admissions departments and to
employers. That's why employers like math majors. Not for the specific
math but because the student can do things that are considered
difficult.
Calculus, if for no other reason, opens up physics. Other options are
discrete mathematics followed by computer language theory. Useful for
developing abstract thinking ability.
> Those students who do need
> such advanced study can and do receive special tutoring, advanced
> classes or independent study under the supervision of a teacher.
Algebra is advanced? Who considers algebra advanced? Texas wants
all of their kids to learn algebra by 10th grade. Not a difficult
proposition. Calculus is considered advanced but should be standard.
I've done many college interviews and it was difficult, if not
impossible without a few to several APs. I recall students that
were taking calculus along with other APs that were rejected.
> But
> we're not talking about special kids here, we're talking about the
> average range of students. Algebra, trig, and geometry are rather ample
> for the average person to have a training in mathematics, understand its
> use and methods, and know where to find the information if it should be
> needed later.
What I've heard from college professors are that kids are skipping
geometry
or skipping proof-based geometry courses (which is the really important
part
of the course). Kids get into college with difficulty manipulating
fractions.
And so on.
> Me:
> > Every teacher I know (which is somewhere over
> > 100, I would estimate) will take time or make time to give a student
> > help (even one from outside their class).
>
> Michael Moy:
> > If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
> > time.
>
> Hmmm.... 100 teachers, 150 students, one hour each (oh boy, a story
> problem!) that would be: One and a half hours. And chances are that
> several of those students have questions about the same things. They
> can be helped together. That cuts down the total time. And in a school
> atmosphere, there are also other students that can be asked for help.
> That cuts it down even more. Is this one hour a day? A week? Now rather
> than chatting in study hall, the student could (God forbid!) study: use
> this time to ask questions of the study hall teacher, go to another
> teacher, get help from other students. Or use the library.
One teacher has 150 students. Those 150 students ask that one teacher
for
one hour of his time during one day. Pretty simple.
> > > And...you won't learn anything from all the books in the library if you
> > > don't take advantage of them.
> >
> > This is true. But they generally more available than teachers are.
>
> Really? In a public school setting, there are teachers in every room
> virtually every hour of the day. That's pretty accessible.
You have to get the right one. Suppose your database query engine expert
is in class when you need him. Or is taking a training course. Or is out
sick.
> > > "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
> > > *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
> >
> > I wouldn't go with fiction on this subject. We've used the WW Norton
> > book for American history. We've also used the Hakim books.
>
> So you'd ignore or reject the student's request? Why? What if what the
> child is interested in isn't facts about a specific revolution or even
> statistics and trends on revolutions in general, but insight into the
> emotions and thoughts and personal ramifications of theoretical
> individuals in a theoretical revolution?
I may or may not or I may ask for help. There are a lot of places to ask
on the internet including a lot of home schooling mailing lists. There
are
times, though, when I say that I'm busy.
> Fiction, with its first-person
> or third-person omniscient viewpoint would be a good way to bring these
> items together in a way which is easy to follow. (Personally, I'd
> recommend "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" [Heinlien] "Bio of a Space Tyrant"
> [Piers Anthony] and/or "Mars Trilogy (Red, Green, Blue)" [Kim Stanley
> Robinson]. Each has a different view from idealistic to cynical, and
> each offers valid information and insight into the different ideals and
> problems of a revolution. And they're all a good read.)
>
> I will refrain from replying to your wise-ass comments on the two minor
> typos in my post.
I generally hold teachers to higher standards. And I don't see how they
were typos. The quote key is quite distant from the letters w, a, n and
t.
The e key is one letter away from the a key but I can't see why one
would
reach for the a key after the e key when it was a duplicate of the
previous letter. I have a pretty hard time understanding how these could
have been typos.
Rebecca Schoenberg
:> > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
:> > our high-schools given this availability.
:>
:> And we don't?
:>
:> I learned: science (physics and biology), literature (American, English,
:> world), speech (public address, interpretive reading (3 years of speach
:> training and competition on the forensics team)), drama (design, tech,
:> and performance), art (drawing, photography, casting and metal-woking,
:> pottery, painting), music (symphonic band, marching band, jazz ensemble,
:> color guard, choir), newpaper techniques (journalistic writing, editing,
:> layout), graphic design ((yearbook) layout, montage, continutity)),
:> athletics (track and field), creative writing (short fiction, poetry,
:> drama), carpentry (scenic carpentry, woodworking, drafting and
:> blue-print reading), law (mock trial).
:>
:> And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head from my 4
:> years of high school.
:>
:> Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
:> their own?
"Let's see.... biology, chemistry, basic physics, proper dissection technique,
CPR, basic life support, emergency medicine, basic math from algebra through
calculus, computer programming, public speaking, how not to be embarrased in
front of an audience, American and English literature, essay-writing and poetry
skills, economics, American history, library and research skills, how to defend
my own opinions to those who challenged them, Spanish, pencil sketching,
watercolor painting, illumination....
"My education was a bit more specialized and less broad-based, since I went
into school knowing that I was going to go on to a veterinary degree, so
most of my elective hours went to extra science and math classes instead of
arts, chorus, or debate - I would double up on geometry and trig, or AP
Bio and Physics. But I still managed to come out a complete and well-rounded
person....
: Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
: In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
: the required information.
"I won't? Wow, I should tell all my profs that, so they'll stop giving us
their phone numbers and telling us that, once we get out in practice, one
of the most important things to do is keep a resource list with their numbers
so we can call them for esoteric cases for advice and consultations....
"Going to teachers for help doesn't preclude going to the library and
researching things on your own. It's an 'and,' not an 'or.' And it makes
no sense to cut yourself off from either as a potential resource - both have
their uses.
"When I want to learn what the proper dose of phenobarb for an epileptic
German Shepherd is, and how it interacts with the medication the animal is
already on, I can go to a textbook. When I want to learn how to do a one-
handed surgical knot, or how to tie a horizontal mattress suture, I'll go
to one of the surgeons and ask them to show me. I've read the textbooks,
but it's more helpful for something like that to actually see it done...."
-banshee, who believes in learning from as many sources as possible
Sanford E. Walke IV
> [1] I'm living evidence that the SAT only shows the first semester. I took
> the SAT once. Got a 1400. I did wonderful in my first semester. I did
> crappy in the following two. Then I started bouncing schools.
Exactly the same thing here. What I found when I got to college was that I
had *no* study skills (or study discipline, which is just as important) at
all. SAT and ACT, phenomenal. First semester was basically a repeat of my
senior year in high school, and I did great. Second semester, Academic
Probation. I eventually failed out twice.
--
Sandy se...@izzy.net
Be a trend-setter, take responsibility for the results of your actions.
I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that.
cloth...@my-dejanews.com
rand...@open.thedoor.nom (Randolph Fritz) wrote:
> On 2 Apr 1999 21:25:45 GMT, Rebecca Schoenberg <si...@hotblack.gweep.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> "The rough rule-of-thumb used to be that public schools in the
> wealthier major liberal cities and well-off white suburbs were pretty
> good, other public schools not so--though this varied from place to
> place. Rural schools in very conservative areas are notorious for low
> quality, though there are exceptions. After some years of tax-cutting
> mania, many public schools have gotten much worse, especially in major
> cities. Massachussetts public schools--I believe you're from
> there--are very good."
>
Even that's no longer a good rule of thumb. If we applied it to the City of
Houston, Tx, we should have a good school system. The Houston Independant
School District sucks pondwater. Their mission is to turn out brain-dead but
oh, so politically correctly "educated" students. They brag about one of
their advanced ("Magnet") schools, the High School for the Performing and
Visual Arts, and how the students in that school score significantly higher
on SATs than others. The average SAT score for graduating seniors was about
520.
When my stepson was in the 7th grade (private school), he took the SATs as
part of a program sponsered by Princeton. His scores were 490 English and
510 Math. By HISD's criteria, he should about ready to graduate.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Sanford E. Walke IV
> The artificial social structure of a public school includes only
> interacting with people yur own age, and only socializing with 'peers'
> who have the same intests as yourself.
Funny, my school didn't work that way. Most of my friends were either two
years up or two years down, though I knew everyone in my graduating class
by name.
j.w.
Michael Moy <mm...@us.oracle.com> wrote in article
<3707A9C2...@us.oracle.com>...
>
>
> Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
> elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
>
Possibly. Here (Ontario) all teachers must have an undergraduate degree
before entering a Faculty of Education. So, I have worked with elementary
school teachers who have degrees in Math, Physics, Psychology, Business,
Computer Science, etc. I have a Masters in English. Teachers are also very
good at utilizing outside resources. So, I have a parent who is coming in
next month to teach the kids about the commodities market; I have another
who teaches music and a third who does carpentry. I think Blaze's point is
that no one person can be all things, but in a place where there are a lot
of people you have a better shot at finding someone who _can_ teach what
you cannot.
You've pushed a hot button here I'm afraid. There seems to be a tendency
amongst well-educated individuals to assume that elementary school teachers
know nothing other than what they teach. I used to work in a school that
was K-OAC (the full range of kindergarten to completion of high school). We
had a planning seminar one day. I was working with the high school teachers
and some of the administration. At the time I was an Assistant Teacher in
the Kindergarten. One of my colleagues commented to another (within my
hearing) that they were surprised by how intelligent I was. This was not
someone I would normally associate with the word jerk. Another colleague
expressed surprise that I would continue to teach elementary school when I
could be teaching _real_ students in high school. Well, I teach elementary
kids because I love it _not_ because I didn't learn anything past Grade 6.
j.w.
j.w.
Michael Moy <mm...@us.oracle.com> wrote
>
Calculus shows that
> you can do difficult things to college admissions departments and to
> employers. That's why employers like math majors. Not for the specific
> math but because the student can do things that are considered
> difficult.
>
Wow. Do you really mean to be this arrogant? Do you really want to state
that math, and only math, is challenging to the brain? Do you really
believe that it is the _only_ subject that is difficult - that it is the
only thing that requires a student to think and work through problems?
Really? Where do languages fit into this scheme? How about Philosophy?
History? Politics? Literature?
j.w.
M Blaze Miskulin
> > I, myself, have left school at 8:00 at night, having stayed to help a
> > student. I regularly see half a dozen teachers in their rooms at 5:00
> > or 6:00 at night helping students.
Michael Moy:
> Do you do this every night? For all of your students?
No. Because all of my students don't need help every night. The same
goes for any class. Most classes have work time built into them, during
which the student can ask questions.
> > Me:
> > [again: availability equals requirement of use]
> > > > I have no
> > > > idea where you get this idea, but *stop* attributing it to me.
> >
> > Michael Moy:
> > > It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
> >
> > No. It isn't. It is something you have inferred. Availability equals
> > choice. That is the only thing I have said. Greater availability equals
> > greater choice, and greater potential for learning.
Me:
> > Database query engines? That would be Mr. Zilker, room
> > 218 (right next to the art room).
Michael Moy:
> You have an expert on database query engines? I read the AP Computer
> Science mailing list and most of the teachers there don't have CS
> degrees. They know about programming and perhaps something about data
> structures but I have heard of no experts on database query engines.
> I've worked on these and there aren't a lot of experts in the world
> on these things. The main work on these are in Seattle, San Francisco,
> Almaden or Armonk (not sure where IBM does their query engine work on
> DB2) and a little in New England. Perhaps you could ask him about how
> you implement dynamic query optimization and why you would want to do
> this.
Okay. You've switched modes. Your original question was:
> > What do they do if they want to...understand how
> > database query engines work?
...and you were referring to elementary school students. Do you mean to
say that elementary school students would be asking questions on the
level of advanced professionals of which "there aren't a lot of experts
in the world"? Please keep your questions consistent and within the
realm of the sensible. If a 4th grader was able to ask questions and
understand answers pertaining to topics of such advanced and specific
nature, he would long since have shown this aptitude (and been trained
in it to some degree) and been placed in accelerated classes, or with a
series of private tutors.
This discussion is not, and never has been about the extreme cases. It's
about the normal range of students, from below average to above average.
Please keep to the topic at hand.
Me:
> > Differential equations? That would
> > be Ms. Rosemeyer, room 214 (other side of the art room).
Michael Moy:
> You have this available in your elementary schools?
As a standard class? No. But is it so difficult to believe that in a
school, someone (let's say one of the math teachers?) has taken calculus
classes and has enough of an understanding of the topic to teach, at
least the initial stages, to a student?
> > Me:
> > > Every teacher I know (which is somewhere over
> > > 100, I would estimate) will take time or make time to give a student
> > > help (even one from outside their class).
> >
> > Michael Moy:
> > > If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
> > > time.
Me:
> > Hmmm.... 100 teachers, 150 students, one hour each (oh boy, a story
> > problem!)
Michael Moy:
> One teacher has 150 students. Those 150 students ask that one teacher
> for one hour of his time during one day. Pretty simple.
Pretty unlikely. Not every student in every class requires help. Not
every student who requires help requires an hour. Not every student who
requires help requests it from the teacher (fellow students are an
exceptional resource). Please refrain from extremist examples.
Michael Moy:
> Suppose your database query engine expert
> is in class when you need him. Or is taking a training course. Or is out
> sick.
Then you wait, reschedule, or look for another source. I have never said
that people are a resource to the exclusion of all others. I have,
rather, stated that teachers (or people of knowledge) are a primary
source of information; that they are better able to answer specific
questions, adapt to changing inquiries, make logical or intuitive leaps,
and assess the degree of understanding of the student than other
sources, such as books.
Me
> > I will refrain from replying to your wise-ass comments on the two minor
> > typos in my post.
Michael Moy:
> I generally hold teachers to higher standards. And I don't see how they
> were typos. The quote key is quite distant from the letters w, a, n and
> t.
> The e key is one letter away from the a key but I can't see why one
> would
> reach for the a key after the e key when it was a duplicate of the
> previous letter. I have a pretty hard time understanding how these could
> have been typos.
Well that would be a fault on your part then. Who said that a typo had
to be logical? That the only way to miss a keystroke is to hit the key
next to it? I tend to replace a second e with an a. It just happens.
I managed to miss it that time when I proof read. As for the
apostrophe, my fingers frequently place one between an n and a t. It's
a habit (kinetic memory) which is semi-automatic. It has to do with the
large number of contractions that I use. "want" is close to "wasn't"
and triggers the kinetic memory; the fingers operate without conscious
thought.
They are typos. These things happen.
And regardless of how they happened, your comments were out of line.
Now. As you seem prone to extreme examples, shifting standards, and
personal attacks, I feel that any further discussion is pointless.
This thread is now kill-filed.
Sanford E. Walke IV
> It makes the door available. The student has to knock and then go
> through. It doesn't seem to me like this is the norm.
Sorry your school sucked so bad, then. It was standard practice at my school
(which was average, at best) that teachers were available outside of class.
> You can't possibly absorb all of those ideas though and you can't take
> advantage of them all as your strawman pointed to.
You don't have to take advantage of *all* of them. The availability is the
important part.
> The student needs to understand the choices and their availability. And
> needs to have the time to find the appropriate specialist, the time to
> speak to said specialist and then the time to pursue the choices.
And what else does a high school student do? Nothing that eats that much
time that's of more value than learning, imo.
> Or not. We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> our high-schools given this availability.
The students have to have the drive to do it. The availability is there,
the students have to take advantage of it.
> Not if they're time-sharing and not if you're not taking advantage of it.
First point has already been shot down. They're available, in the norm.
Taking advantage of it is the responsibility of the student.
M Blaze Miskulin
> >
> > > Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
> > > In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
> > > the required information. Sometimes, one should go to the library, find a
> > > relevant book, and absorb information this way.
[2] Blaze:
> > I'm not saying that research and learning should exclude books. Not in
> > the least. I'm saying that books should not be considered the only, or
> > even the primary source of information on all topics.
[2.5]
> > And asking a person for an help is not having the answer "spoon fed" to
> > you. It's refering to a resource. A resource with the ability to
> > adapt: the original interactive medium.
[3] Larisa
> > > A teacher is a good resource - but
> > > one must also learn to utilize other ones.
[4] Blaze:
> > Undeniably. I wouldn't say otherwise.
[5] Larisa:
> > > Asking a teacher is a good way for a child to seek information. Finding
> > > said information oneself is a good way for an adult to seek information.
[6] Blaze:
> > Asking someone who knows ("teacher" does not restrict itself to
> > "employee of the school district") is a good way for adults to seek
Mr Moy:
> There are times when this doesn't work. Such as when you are creating
> original work or when you are doing work on something that noone has
> ever done or are creating a new product.
>
> There are times when asking someone else isn't the most efficient way
> to get things done in terms of the labor cost of the person asking and
> the person being asked in addition to any management types along the
> way.
I have quoted this in its entirety so that you can read it again.
Please note paragraphs 2, 3, and 4. Asking a knowlegable person is *a*
resource. Never have I stated that it is *the only* resource.
[This thread is kill-filed]
Sanford E. Walke IV
> If you're teaching a full load in school, though, when does the teacher
> have time for this?
During lunch. After school. At home. Before school. Teachers are
surprisingly happy to teach, oddly enough.
> And at the elementary level, are these experts available?
Yes.
Sanford E. Walke IV
M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
>> Please show me where in my posts I have stated that the student will
>> learn every thing that he has access to? I *never* said that. Again,
>> please do not take my comments and stretch them out of proportion.
> Then why state that all this is available? That is the implication.
Nonsense. Availability had nothing to do with whether it's utilized by
any one student. Ford makes about 30 different models of cars and trucks.
If I go to a Ford dealership, do I have to therefore buy one of each? No,
I buy the one I want.
> Perhaps a little time but how about asking for something involving
> several hours of time?
Then they usually would schedule it for outside of school hours, or arrange
tutoring.
> It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
Nonsense. It's the implication *you* may get, but it's not anything reasonably
attributable to what he wrote.
> What do they do if they want to know how to milk a cow
Ask the animal husbandry teacher, or one of the kids who lives on a dairy
farm?
> or understand how database query engines work
Ask the computer teacher?
> or understand differential equations or understand integration in
> elementary school?
Errr. Elementary school around here is K-4, so if a fourth grader is asking
about diffeq, they're going to get bumped into a special tutoring system
anyway. Even if it's K-8, they can get bumped for single classes. I took
Algebra in 7th grade, which was a 9th grade offering.
> Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
> elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
Yes, some, and if you ask, they can point you to people who can help you
more than they can.
> I though that study halls were for chatting.
Then you wasted your study halls. School is for learning.
> Is this what the average graduate learns?
The average graduate who has the drive to learn it can. It's not the school's
fault if the student doesn't take advantage of what's available to them.
> Why do we have so many reported problems in our schools then? Why does
> it take 12 years to learn arithmetic and algebra and calculus if you're
> lucky? Why do statistics show poor reading and math skills (at least in
> our state).
Because the students just don't care any more, and the parents don't either.
> If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
> time.
Because the students don't care, you don't *have* 150 students asking for
an hour each. It's a non-issue.
> What is a speach class? I took five years of speech training in a
> Toastmasters-type environment and could probably come up with something
> rather easily.
Sure, you, the human being, could. 2.5 million volumes couldn't.
>> "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
>> *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
> I wouldn't go with fiction on this subject. We've used the WW Norton
> book for American history. We've also used the Hakim books.
Fiction is easier for some people, and if they like the fiction, they can
go on to the non-fiction.
Sanford E. Walke IV
> M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
>> No. It is not. Availability of a thing in no way implies that its
>> entirety must be utilized. There is no implication. You have
>> (incorrectly) inferred that.
> What percentage of this availability is used?
That depends completely on the student's drive to learn. The availability
is the important part.
>> No. It isn't. It is something you have inferred. Availability equals
>> choice. That is the only thing I have said. Greater availability equals
>> greater choice, and greater potential for learning.
> As I've said, you have to take it.
It has to be there for the opportunity to take it to exist.
> You have this available in your elementary schools?
It's available in the school system. If an elementary student asked about it,
they could be referred there. Networking, it's called.
> One teacher has 150 students. Those 150 students ask that one teacher
> for one hour of his time during one day. Pretty simple.
It sure is fun to make up things that just don't happen, then point to them
as valid proofs, isn't it? What's that called again? Hayperson? Chaffguy?
I forget.
> You have to get the right one. Suppose your database query engine expert
> is in class when you need him. Or is taking a training course. Or is out
> sick.
What is so urgent to a high school student that they can't wait a day or so?
They don't have a deadline or they'll get fired.
Liana Olear
<snip>
: I imagine I was unusually fortunate in having very knowledgeable parents.
: I would have done very well in homeschooling, had they taken that option.
: Such questions as you mention above have always been directed to my father
: - and I have never known him to be unable to answer and to give me a book
: on the relevant subject.
<'n snip>
: Oh, I agree on that. But *on average*, homeschoolers are better educated
: than those who go to public school.
I don't think that has anything to do with the teaching methods. On
average, parents who choose to have children homeschooled are quite
knowledgeable and interested in the children's education. I think
the parents who share these traits but choose to have their kids go to
public schools end up with children not less educated that the
homeschoolers.
Liana
Michael Moy
>
> Michael Moy <mm...@us.oracle.com> wrote in article
> <3707A9C2...@us.oracle.com>...
> >
> >
> > elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
> >
>
> before entering a Faculty of Education. So, I have worked with elementary
> school teachers who have degrees in Math, Physics, Psychology, Business,
> Computer Science, etc. I have a Masters in English. Teachers are also very
> good at utilizing outside resources. So, I have a parent who is coming in
> next month to teach the kids about the commodities market; I have another
> who teaches music and a third who does carpentry. I think Blaze's point is
> that no one person can be all things, but in a place where there are a lot
> of people you have a better shot at finding someone who _can_ teach what
> you cannot.
This is useful. What would be more useful is the availability of classes
in
this environment.
> You've pushed a hot button here I'm afraid. There seems to be a tendency
> amongst well-educated individuals to assume that elementary school teachers
> know nothing other than what they teach.
Elementary teachers tend to be generalists as they keep their whole
class
for the whole day. The programs that I've seen at education schools
does a little of each subject and the requirements for admission tend
to be lower than for other schools in the same university. Perhaps
things
are different in your ed schools.
> I used to work in a school that
> was K-OAC (the full range of kindergarten to completion of high school). We
> had a planning seminar one day. I was working with the high school teachers
> and some of the administration. At the time I was an Assistant Teacher in
> the Kindergarten. One of my colleagues commented to another (within my
> hearing) that they were surprised by how intelligent I was. This was not
> someone I would normally associate with the word jerk. Another colleague
> expressed surprise that I would continue to teach elementary school when I
> could be teaching _real_ students in high school. Well, I teach elementary
> kids because I love it _not_ because I didn't learn anything past Grade 6.
It seems that your colleagues have the same assumption. How do you
change
outside perceptions if these are the inside perceptions too?
Michael Moy
>
> [1] Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
> > > > In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
> > > > the required information. Sometimes, one should go to the library, find a
> > > > relevant book, and absorb information this way.
>
> > > I'm not saying that research and learning should exclude books. Not in
> > > the least. I'm saying that books should not be considered the only, or
> > > even the primary source of information on all topics.
> [2.5]
> > > And asking a person for an help is not having the answer "spoon fed" to
> > > you. It's refering to a resource. A resource with the ability to
> > > adapt: the original interactive medium.
>
> [3] Larisa
> > > > one must also learn to utilize other ones.
>
> > > Undeniably. I wouldn't say otherwise.
>
> [5] Larisa:
> > > > said information oneself is a good way for an adult to seek information.
>
> > > Asking someone who knows ("teacher" does not restrict itself to
> > > "employee of the school district") is a good way for adults to seek
>
> Mr Moy:
> > There are times when this doesn't work. Such as when you are creating
> > original work or when you are doing work on something that noone has
> > ever done or are creating a new product.
> >
> > There are times when asking someone else isn't the most efficient way
> > to get things done in terms of the labor cost of the person asking and
> > the person being asked in addition to any management types along the
> > way.
>
> I have quoted this in its entirety so that you can read it again.
> Please note paragraphs 2, 3, and 4. Asking a knowlegable person is *a*
> resource. Never have I stated that it is *the only* resource.
Again, my comment is that there are time when resources don't exist and
you have to do original work.
Michael Moy
> : I would have done very well in homeschooling, had they taken that option.
> : Such questions as you mention above have always been directed to my father
> : - and I have never known him to be unable to answer and to give me a book
> : on the relevant subject.
>
>
> : Oh, I agree on that. But *on average*, homeschoolers are better educated
> : than those who go to public school.
>
> average, parents who choose to have children homeschooled are quite
> knowledgeable and interested in the children's education. I think
> the parents who share these traits but choose to have their kids go to
> public schools end up with children not less educated that the
> homeschoolers.
Spend some time on the gifted and talented bulletin boards and read
about
the horror stories of parents trying to get appropriate services for
their
kids that don't fit the mold. G/T services also are quite quick to get
cut (I believe that thay're doing this in San Francisco) as they
generally
don't have widespread support.
Do you recall the story on 20/20 two months ago where a student was
savagely beaten to the point of winding up in a coma and then having
to relearn letters, reading and talking? He went to college in his
early teens and graduated and is working for Arthur D. Little (technical
and management consulting firm) at 16. He said that he learned how
to have fun and socialize from his college classmates; they learned
a lot from him too.
I've heard the comment that you made many times though I find it hard
to see how you can get individually paced material for different
subjects
in an environment that's designed to be economically efficient using
mass-production techniques.
Michael Moy
>
> Michael Moy <mm...@us.oracle.com> wrote:
>
> M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
>
> >> Please show me where in my posts I have stated that the student will
> >> learn every thing that he has access to? I *never* said that. Again,
> >> please do not take my comments and stretch them out of proportion.
>
> > Then why state that all this is available? That is the implication.
>
> any one student. Ford makes about 30 different models of cars and trucks.
> If I go to a Ford dealership, do I have to therefore buy one of each? No,
> I buy the one I want.
If the availability doesn't affect the outcome; what good is it?
> > Perhaps a little time but how about asking for something involving
> > several hours of time?
>
> Then they usually would schedule it for outside of school hours, or arrange
> tutoring.
Or go look it up in a book or use the internet. Teachers aren't needed
for everything. And in the working world; much less.
> > It's the implication that one gets from reading what you wrote.
>
> Nonsense. It's the implication *you* may get, but it's not anything reasonably
> attributable to what he wrote.
>
> > What do they do if they want to know how to milk a cow
>
> Ask the animal husbandry teacher, or one of the kids who lives on a dairy
> farm?
We don't have these where I live.
> > or understand how database query engines work
>
> Ask the computer teacher?
And what will the computer teacher say? Does the computer teacher have
a masters or doctorate in computer science? Some computer science
students
are exposed to database query engines though not to much detail. Your
typical computer teacher below high school is not a computer science
professional. At the high school level, you're lucky to have someone
with
a CS degree. The AP CS program is geared to programming in C++ along
with
some data structures which really doesn't require a CS degree nor the
much mathematical understanding related to computer science.
Spend some time on the AP CS list and you'll see what I mean. Teachers
in
AP Calculus tend to have better qualifications.
> > or understand differential equations or understand integration in
> > elementary school?
>
> Errr. Elementary school around here is K-4, so if a fourth grader is asking
> about diffeq, they're going to get bumped into a special tutoring system
> anyway. Even if it's K-8, they can get bumped for single classes. I took
> Algebra in 7th grade, which was a 9th grade offering.
It's 1-5 here (we don't have K). I don't know what we'd do here as the
high-school maxes out at AP calc.
> > Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
> > elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
>
> Yes, some, and if you ask, they can point you to people who can help you
> more than they can.
Would they teach you the course?
> > I though that study halls were for chatting.
>
> Then you wasted your study halls. School is for learning.
I spent study hall time off campus.
> > Is this what the average graduate learns?
>
> The average graduate who has the drive to learn it can. It's not the school's
> fault if the student doesn't take advantage of what's available to them.
Why not get rid of mandatory attendance laws then?
> > Why do we have so many reported problems in our schools then? Why does
> > it take 12 years to learn arithmetic and algebra and calculus if you're
> > lucky? Why do statistics show poor reading and math skills (at least in
> > our state).
>
> Because the students just don't care any more, and the parents don't either.
>
> > If you have 150 students ask for an hour extra each, you will run out of
> > time.
>
> Because the students don't care, you don't *have* 150 students asking for
> an hour each. It's a non-issue.
>
> > What is a speach class? I took five years of speech training in a
> > Toastmasters-type environment and could probably come up with something
> > rather easily.
>
> Sure, you, the human being, could. 2.5 million volumes couldn't.
>
> >> "I'm interested in how a revolution happens. Do you know of any
> >> *interesting* fiction books on the topic?"
>
> > I wouldn't go with fiction on this subject. We've used the WW Norton
> > book for American history. We've also used the Hakim books.
>
> Fiction is easier for some people, and if they like the fiction, they can
> go on to the non-fiction.
This would seem to be inefficient. It would also seem to introduce some
bias from the author; moreso than non-fiction bias.
Ben Addleman
> > One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
> > shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
> > to the test.
>
> Perhaps you could do some interesting things with a set of bifocals.
Two words: Colour filters. At my undergraduate university, you could bring
in a single sheet filled with whatever information you wanted for the
first-year physics exam. One guy wrote over his own notes several times in
different coloured ink, then read the different layers using coloured light
gels. The instructors were so impressed they let him get away with it,
before making a rule for the next year that it wasn't allowed.
Ben Addleman
Michael Moy
>
> :> Michael Moy:
> :> > We should have extrememly well-rounded students coming out of
> :> > our high-schools given this availability.
> :>
> :> And we don't?
> :>
> :> I learned: science (physics and biology), literature (American, English,
> :> world), speech (public address, interpretive reading (3 years of speach
> :> training and competition on the forensics team)), drama (design, tech,
> :> and performance), art (drawing, photography, casting and metal-woking,
> :> pottery, painting), music (symphonic band, marching band, jazz ensemble,
> :> color guard, choir), newpaper techniques (journalistic writing, editing,
> :> layout), graphic design ((yearbook) layout, montage, continutity)),
> :> athletics (track and field), creative writing (short fiction, poetry,
> :> drama), carpentry (scenic carpentry, woodworking, drafting and
> :> blue-print reading), law (mock trial).
> :>
> :> And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head from my 4
> :> years of high school.
> :>
> :> Any other public shchool graduates (or students) care to add a list of
> :> their own?
>
> CPR, basic life support, emergency medicine, basic math from algebra through
> calculus, computer programming, public speaking, how not to be embarrased in
> front of an audience, American and English literature, essay-writing and poetry
> skills, economics, American history, library and research skills, how to defend
> my own opinions to those who challenged them, Spanish, pencil sketching,
> watercolor painting, illumination....
>
> "My education was a bit more specialized and less broad-based, since I went
> into school knowing that I was going to go on to a veterinary degree, so
> most of my elective hours went to extra science and math classes instead of
> arts, chorus, or debate - I would double up on geometry and trig, or AP
> Bio and Physics. But I still managed to come out a complete and well-rounded
> person....
Would you consider yourself average or top 5%?
> : Hmm. One skill that you do not mention is how to search for information.
> : In real life, one does not have a friendly teacher who will spoon-feed one
> : the required information.
>
> "I won't? Wow, I should tell all my profs that, so they'll stop giving us
> their phone numbers and telling us that, once we get out in practice, one
> of the most important things to do is keep a resource list with their numbers
> so we can call them for esoteric cases for advice and consultations....
This may be common for your profession but I don't think that it's
common for
a lot of other professions.
> "Going to teachers for help doesn't preclude going to the library and
> researching things on your own. It's an 'and,' not an 'or.' And it makes
> no sense to cut yourself off from either as a potential resource - both have
> their uses.
And there are lots of times when you're doing original work where there
are
no resources available.
mae...@merlot.enteract.com
> Some of you here in
> Callahan's may have reservations about my personal qualities, but I
> haven't gotten the sense that people think I'm poorly *educated.*
*blink* RESERVATIONS?! You're taking reservations??? Where do I sign up?
Who do I call?
maenad, who'd like to reserve Rivka's sense of humor and whiskey
appreciation qualities from 6pm-2am some Saturday night...
remove grape to reply.
Michael Moy
I was thinking of something like three-d glasses or polarized glasses
but didn't know enough about how these worked to post it here.
The filters idea sounds pretty cool though it can be difficult to find
a lot of different colored fine line pens. I used to use the Rapidograph
pens which went down to at least .28 mm and perhaps .1? mm. They were
great
pens for fine writing but it was hard to get colors other than black and
red and the things clogged up if you didn't use them for a day or two.
Were these gels that he placed over the paper or something that he
placed in glasses or did he substitute lenses?
Sanford E. Walke IV
Banshee wrote:
>> "I won't? Wow, I should tell all my profs that, so they'll stop giving us
>> their phone numbers and telling us that, once we get out in practice, one
>> of the most important things to do is keep a resource list with their numbers
>> so we can call them for esoteric cases for advice and consultations....
> This may be common for your profession but I don't think that it's
> common for a lot of other professions.
It is for mine (network/unix/NT admin).
> And there are lots of times when you're doing original work where there
> are no resources available.
And then your library books are worth what, exactly?
mae...@merlot.enteract.com
<btw, hi Michael, welcome to the Place>
> Check the recent home schooling statistics at:
> http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/
> Perhaps you can't be convinced but the results seem to be good.
I went and looked. The study seems to me to be sufficient evidence that
home-schooling *can* produce good results. It is completely invalid for
proving that home-schooling produces a better result on average than any
other type of schooling.
> > There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
> > that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
> Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
> regardless
> of what you do or do not concede.
*shrug* Not always. The one home-schooling family I know personally does a
horrible job.
Why are you so defensive?
maenad
remove grape to reply.
Sanford E. Walke IV
> Sanford E. Walke IV wrote:
>> Nonsense. Availability had nothing to do with whether it's utilized by
>> any one student. Ford makes about 30 different models of cars and trucks.
>> If I go to a Ford dealership, do I have to therefore buy one of each? No,
>> I buy the one I want.
> If the availability doesn't affect the outcome; what good is it?
FOR A SPECIFIC PERSON, the availability of, say, underwater basketweaving
is perhaps useless, while for ANOTHER SPECIFIC PERSON, it's a useful thing.
NO ONE PERSON WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF *ALL* OF THE CHOICES AVAILABLE, BUT
THE AVAILABILITY OF THE CHOICES IS NECESSARY.
Did you hear it that time? Try taking your fingers out of your ears and
stop humming, maybe that'll help.
> We don't have these where I live.
Then you might look it up. Or you might look in the phone book for a farm
with tours. Or you might ask a friend, or someone who you think you might
know, or at least know someone who knows, and so on and so forth. They're
all valid resources. Did you know it's fun to fully justify text? It is.
>> > or understand how database query engines work
>>
>> Ask the computer teacher?
> And what will the computer teacher say? Does the computer teacher have
> a masters or doctorate in computer science? Some computer science
> students are exposed to database query engines though not to much detail.
> Your typical computer teacher below high school is not a computer science
> professional. At the high school level, you're lucky to have someone
> with a CS degree. The AP CS program is geared to programming in C++ along
> with some data structures which really doesn't require a CS degree nor the
> much mathematical understanding related to computer science.
And so? How hard is it for you to understand that many people, if they don't
know themselves, can point you to other resources that can better explain it.
The point is that it's often easier to use a person's knowledge as a jumping
off point to heavier research, rather than starting with a card catalog.
>> > or understand differential equations or understand integration in
>> > elementary school?
>>
>> Errr. Elementary school around here is K-4, so if a fourth grader is asking
>> about diffeq, they're going to get bumped into a special tutoring system
>> anyway. Even if it's K-8, they can get bumped for single classes. I took
>> Algebra in 7th grade, which was a 9th grade offering.
> It's 1-5 here (we don't have K). I don't know what we'd do here as the
> high-school maxes out at AP calc.
Then they'd probably bump them to direct tutoring or classes at the local
community college.
>> > Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
>> > elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
>>
>> Yes, some, and if you ask, they can point you to people who can help you
>> more than they can.
> Would they teach you the course?
Is that their job? Nope. If you want to pay for the tutoring or the
community college classes (see above), or try to learn it on your own,
they'd probably help all they could, with references and help on sticky
parts.
>> > Is this what the average graduate learns?
>>
>> The average graduate who has the drive to learn it can. It's not the school's
>> fault if the student doesn't take advantage of what's available to them.
> Why not get rid of mandatory attendance laws then?
Because the taxpayers would scream, and youth crime would rise.
>> Fiction is easier for some people, and if they like the fiction, they can
>> go on to the non-fiction.
> This would seem to be inefficient. It would also seem to introduce some
> bias from the author; moreso than non-fiction bias.
What the fuck are you, a robot? Learning isn't a straight line A-B thing.
You learn from many different sources, and fiction about a revolution can
help you to understand how the people behind the non-fiction might have
been thinking.
Noel Lynne Figart
>*shrug* Not always. The one home-schooling family I know personally does a
>horrible job.
Yeah, I know of one of those type families, too. They're about to pay
me several hundred dollars over the summer in the hopes that I can
teach their 15 year old math phobic daughter fractions. <sigh> It
happens.
However, Peter and I are considering a homeschooling twist -a
homeschool co-op.
I want my son to be around other children. I dislike the public
schools and the private school options past pre-school are either
religous or boarding schools. Peter and I are not church-goers and
boarding school is out of the question. I would prefer to rear
Samuel, myself.
But, I think that getting together a group of ten or twelve families
and having each parental unit participate in the teaching might work
out well. We've started some spadework now.
So, if you happen to live in Fredericksburg, Virginia, or the
surrounding area, and would like to participate in such a program,
please do email either Peter or myself.
___________
Noel, Axe of the Babs, Mum to the Genius in the High Chair,
and She who Truly Groks Coffee
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
AOL Instant Messenger: NoelFigart
ICQ # 3479805
Rules for Evil Overlords
34. I will not turn into a snake. It never helps.
Ben Addleman
Michael Moy <mg...@netscape.net> wrote in article
<3708F6...@netscape.net>...
>
<snip my story about the guy who used coloured filters to cram way more
information than you'd think possible onto a formula sheet for an exam>
> Were these gels that he placed over the paper or something that he
> placed in glasses or did he substitute lenses?
Just strips of coloured transparent plastic that he could place over the
"cheat sheet." He wasn't rying to hide it at all-nobody had forbidden this
sort of thing, because no one had ever thought of it before.
Ben Addleman
Michael Moy
>
>
> Banshee wrote:
>
> >> "I won't? Wow, I should tell all my profs that, so they'll stop giving us
> >> their phone numbers and telling us that, once we get out in practice, one
> >> of the most important things to do is keep a resource list with their numbers
> >> so we can call them for esoteric cases for advice and consultations....
>
> > This may be common for your profession but I don't think that it's
> > common for a lot of other professions.
>
> It is for mine (network/unix/NT admin).
I don't find it common in software engineering. Usually the stuff that
you're
working on is new stuff there are few experts in acadamia and books on.
> > And there are lots of times when you're doing original work where there
> > are no resources available.
>
> And then your library books are worth what, exactly?
Nothing most of the time. Unless your library contains things
like SIGMOD proceedings. Or algorithms that may be useful for what
you're
doing.
Michael Moy
>
> Michael Moy caused the cathode tubes here to radiate:
> <btw, hi Michael, welcome to the Place>
>
> > Check the recent home schooling statistics at:
> > http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/
>
> > Perhaps you can't be convinced but the results seem to be good.
>
> I went and looked. The study seems to me to be sufficient evidence that
> home-schooling *can* produce good results. It is completely invalid for
> proving that home-schooling produces a better result on average than any
> other type of schooling.
I think that the author of the study says that.
> > > There may be other reasons for homeschooling, but I will not concede
> > > that limiting the number of teachers and viewpoints is a good one.
>
> > Doesn't really matter. Home schoolers are getting the job done
> > regardless
> > of what you do or do not concede.
>
> *shrug* Not always. The one home-schooling family I know personally does a
> horrible job.
I post a Homeschooling in the news summary in
misc.education.home-school.misc
and see the good and the bad. There are some that use the hsing laws to
do
nothing. But the concerned hsing parent would call it quits when it
clearly
isn't working. It would also show up in those states with mandatory
testing.
> Why are you so defensive?
Part of the nature of home schooling. It has been attacked for so many
years
by the NEA, politicians, school boards, school administrators, parents,
those
that don't know better, etc. It has been attacked legally, verbally and
in
print. Home schooling has become legal in all 50 states recently though
there
are attempts, at the state level, to remove freedoms from time to time.
Leonard Erickson
>> > hamper the creative nature and expression of a student who does not fit
>> > well into a highly structured system. Green hair and leather jackets
>> > are a harmless way for kids to assert their independence. Take those
>> > options away and other, less visible, ways can take their place.
I'm reminded of an assembly at one of the parochial schools I used to
attend. Looking back on it with what I know *now* I realize that what
was being described wasn't quite what thought at the time.
Anyway, it seems that some of the 7th & 8th graders were "tattooing"
themselves. Actually, it was what these days would be called a
"cutting" or "decorative scarring". Basicly you make a shallow cut in
the skin and add a bit of ink for coloring. Down right it make nice
permanent marks.
Alas, since they'd either dug it up out of a book or re-invented it on
their own, they *didn't* do it right. Several got infections. *Bad*
infections.
Of course the way it was described to us in assembly was rather
different than the way I did above. I'm sure they *intentional* made it
sound as gross, stupid and painful as possible.
Matter of fact, I didn't even *connect* it with decorative cuttings
when I learned about them. It was only when I remembered the incident
(triggered by the "less visible means" comment above) that I realized
the connection.
> The parent has to determine the type of school that is a good fit.
> Having an unmedicated ADHD kid would probably not be a good fit for
> a strict parochial school.
Having a *medicated* one isn't that great a fit! My kid brother was a
prime example of *that*.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Nemo) kal...@krypton.rain.com
"I would not take a bet against the existence of time machines.
My opponent might have seen the future and know the answer."
-- Stephen Hawking
Leonard Erickson
> Jim M. Pierce wrote:
>>
>> "Noah Singman" wrote:
>> []"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
>> []test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
>> []defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the
> only
>> []reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
>> []trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have
> otherwise."
>>
>> One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
>> shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
>> to the test.
>
> Perhaps you could do some interesting things with a set of bifocals.
Why am I remind of an old friend who showed me the *working* 5 or 6
position abacus charm on her bracelet and told of how it had gotten her
thru more than one math test?
Leonard Erickson
> "Noah Singman" wrote:
> []"I had some instructors who had an interesting variation on the open book
> []test. They let you bring in one sheet of paper with whatever formulae,
> []defintions, etc., you wanted to put on it. That piece of paper was the
> only
> []reference you could use during the test. Students often studied harder
> []trying to prepare a valuable sheet of paper than they would have
> otherwise."
>
> One of the faculty where I work used to do this, and you could
> shrink the text using the copier. But you couldn't bring a magnifier
> to the test.
I just recalled a tale of a college exam where you were allowed any
sort of "test aid" that you could carry. They had to re-write the
rule after a rather husky person carried in a skinny grad student. :-)
Michael Moy
>
> > Sanford E. Walke IV wrote:
>
> >> Nonsense. Availability had nothing to do with whether it's utilized by
> >> any one student. Ford makes about 30 different models of cars and trucks.
> >> If I go to a Ford dealership, do I have to therefore buy one of each? No,
> >> I buy the one I want.
>
> > If the availability doesn't affect the outcome; what good is it?
>
> is perhaps useless, while for ANOTHER SPECIFIC PERSON, it's a useful thing.
> NO ONE PERSON WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF *ALL* OF THE CHOICES AVAILABLE, BUT
> THE AVAILABILITY OF THE CHOICES IS NECESSARY.
I disagree. You can't possibly make all choices available.
> Did you hear it that time? Try taking your fingers out of your ears and
> stop humming, maybe that'll help.
What did you say?
> > We don't have these where I live.
>
> Then you might look it up. Or you might look in the phone book for a farm
> with tours. Or you might ask a friend, or someone who you think you might
> know, or at least know someone who knows, and so on and so forth. They're
> all valid resources.
I didn't say that they weren't. The original point was about finding
topics
to do research on.
> Did you know it's fun to fully justify text? It is.
I used to do this by hand but new have an editor to do this.
> >> > or understand how database query engines work
> >>
> >> Ask the computer teacher?
>
> > And what will the computer teacher say? Does the computer teacher have
> > a masters or doctorate in computer science? Some computer science
> > students are exposed to database query engines though not to much detail.
> > Your typical computer teacher below high school is not a computer science
> > professional. At the high school level, you're lucky to have someone
> > with a CS degree. The AP CS program is geared to programming in C++ along
> > with some data structures which really doesn't require a CS degree nor the
> > much mathematical understanding related to computer science.
>
> And so? How hard is it for you to understand that many people, if they don't
> know themselves, can point you to other resources that can better explain it.
> The point is that it's often easier to use a person's knowledge as a jumping
> off point to heavier research, rather than starting with a card catalog.
But this doesn't require a teacher. In this particular case a teacher
wouldn't
be the best person to go to first unless you had no other choice.
> >> > or understand differential equations or understand integration in
> >> > elementary school?
> >>
> >> Errr. Elementary school around here is K-4, so if a fourth grader is asking
> >> about diffeq, they're going to get bumped into a special tutoring system
> >> anyway. Even if it's K-8, they can get bumped for single classes. I took
> >> Algebra in 7th grade, which was a 9th grade offering.
>
> > It's 1-5 here (we don't have K). I don't know what we'd do here as the
> > high-school maxes out at AP calc.
>
> Then they'd probably bump them to direct tutoring or classes at the local
> community college.
We don't have a local community college though we do have a small
religous
college. I don't know of any precedent of our district doing so. I do
know
that we voted down needed expansion for our high school though this was
due,
in part, to not having school funding due to it being unconstitutional.
> >> > Do you have teachers with experience in differential equations at the
> >> > elementary level? Do you have them studying physics in middle school?
> >>
> >> Yes, some, and if you ask, they can point you to people who can help you
> >> more than they can.
>
> > Would they teach you the course?
>
> Is that their job? Nope. If you want to pay for the tutoring or the
> community college classes (see above), or try to learn it on your own,
> they'd probably help all they could, with references and help on sticky
> parts.
>
> >> > Is this what the average graduate learns?
> >>
> >> The average graduate who has the drive to learn it can. It's not the school's
> >> fault if the student doesn't take advantage of what's available to them.
>
> > Why not get rid of mandatory attendance laws then?
>
> Because the taxpayers would scream, and youth crime would rise.
Why would the taxpayers scream? Their taxes would go down. Perhaps kids
that
want to get out and work when they're younger should be able to.
> >> Fiction is easier for some people, and if they like the fiction, they can
> >> go on to the non-fiction.
>
> > This would seem to be inefficient. It would also seem to introduce some
> > bias from the author; moreso than non-fiction bias.
>
> Learning isn't a straight line A-B thing.
> You learn from many different sources, and fiction about a revolution can
> help you to understand how the people behind the non-fiction might have
> been thinking.
I suppose it could but it would be colored by the point of view of the
person
adding the color.