old-timers
Jane Beckman
getting to be the old-timer's club, here, all of a sudden. Did you ever get
the email I tried to send you, back in July, or did that go to a dead
account?
"I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
Jilara the Exile [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." --Ashleigh Brilliant
William D Yang
>"I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
>raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
From the tickle war, which he /STILL/ hasn't posted to, Ray leaps down from the
rafters for a second to ask a question:
"Do folks who posted an intro then lurked for months count? Reason I ask
is 'cause I intro'd myself in, oh.. November. Funny thing is, I didn't
actually start posting regularly 'til sometime in Febuary.... Does that make
me an 'oldtimer' or am I still a youngster? :)"
Ray leaps toward the rafters again, back to the tickling war he's taking part
in, in a semi-demi-quasi-pseudo sorta way...
"I grow old, I grow old... I shall wear the bottoms of my gap jeans rolled..."
> Jilara the Exile [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
-Ray [et cetera, et cetera]
--
William D. Yang wy...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Yan...@osu.edu
"Ray," the semi-demi-quasi-pseudo Lurker and chinese chef on alt.tuesdays...
It's my opinion, but if you really want it, you an have it for a nominal fee.
Jim Gaynor
>Jilara looks up with delight, as Taldin enters. "Hey, welcome back! It's
>getting to be the old-timer's club, here, all of a sudden. Did you ever get
>the email I tried to send you, back in July, or did that go to a dead
>account?
>
>"I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
>raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
"Lessee..." Jim ponders.
"I met Beth in early '90," he mutters, counting on fingers, "and
before that I was dating Terri... <shudder>, so that was late '89, and
I started posting here as Taoist before I started dating Terri, so
that must have been October..."
He looks up with a smile.
"Hey! I qualify!"
---
Jim Gaynor - AgVAX System Manager - Academic Computing - Ohio State University
VMS:<gay...@agvax2.ag.ohio-state.edu> UNIX:<gay...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Ob Discl : Everything stated here and above is _my_ opinion. Mine mine mine!
Ob Quote : "Yes! We are holding a woman! This is not a drill!" -Herman's Head
Andrew C. Plotkin
31, 1989, raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a
virtual noisemaker!"
I raise a hand, somewhat diffidently. I was pretty quiet back in the
early days, but then, I still am.
I take my noisemaker -- it looks like a shiny, bright green ping-pong
ball. I turn it over in my hands, bemused. No other markings. What the
heck; I give it a sharp squeeze.
In a tiny but perfectly audible voice, it says "Gronk."
I glare at it as if it was personally offensive. My expression is so
*terribly* disdainful that a few giggles arise; I pull an even longer
face at that, getting more laughter, but I can't keep the corner of my
mouth from twitching just a little.
I reach in and pull out another noisemaker, this one bright blue. I
squeeze it, and jump slightly at the loud CLANG! that results. I toss it
back in. (Clang!)
I turn to the crowd. "I cede the drink to someone who needs it --
oldtimer *or* not."
I return to my seat -- bouncing the green ball casually as I go.
"Gronk."
"Gronk."
"Gronk."
"Gronk."
"Gronk."
....
--Z
Peter Crowther (CAG ra)
> "I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
> raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
Peter half-raises his hand. "Lurking, I admit - I didn't post 'till
January 1990. Is that allowable?
"The old 'uns certainly seem to be popping out of the woodwork at the
moment."
Peter sits back in his chair - making sure, as always, to avoid the
Tabbifli's tail - and waits to see who counts as an 'old-timer' and
who is just one of these run-of-the-mill, wet-behind-the-ears,
pick-your-own-cliche new-timers :-).
- Peter
--
Peter Crowther, Medical Informatics Group, Dept. of Computer Science,
University of Manchester, Manchester M13 9PL, England.
Internet: pcro...@cs.man.ac.uk Janet: pcro...@uk.ac.man.cs
Phyllis Rostykus
Jilara's voice cheerily saying, "I propose a small party---everyone who
was here before December 31, 1989, raise hands, and it will qualify you
"Has it really been *that* long???" she asks Jilara incredulously, even
as that lady is handing her a snapper and a Thomas Kemper Helles. Liralen
looks a little dazed and confused as she runs through her memories, "I
remember that I first appeared in the fall, after a particularly ferocious
soccer game, with Fezzik, just a teen-age pup at that time, on my heels;
and that was mostly 'cause my sister Kathy, the Rev Mom, kept insisting
that I visit. I remembered that it *wasn't* the same fall that I had the
Callahan's folks over for Thanksgiving," she frowns in perplexity, "which
I *think* was last fall."
"Good God..." Liralen limply puts her glass onto the table, "I guess it
*has* been that long."
------
Liralen Li | "Looking down on empty streets, all she can see are
..!sumax!polari!li | the dreams all made solid, are the dreams made real."
phy...@eld.amc.com | - "Mercy Street" by Peter Gabriel
A Waterworth
on his face and the strange clouds of steam pouring from his ears, not to
mention the whirring and clanking noises emanating from his skull! Finally, he
asks:
"Do I qualify as an old-timer or not? OK, so I killed off my previous
incarnation
and disappeared for a long while, but I kept popping in for a quick
lurk whenever
the opportunity arose. And it was way before Dec. '89 when I was last here."
"If I do qualify, does that mean I get a noise-maker and a drink as well?"
Martyr the Bowman.
\----------------------------------------/
| A.Wate...@newcastle.ac.uk |
/ ---------------------------------------\
Jim Gaynor
>"Has it really been *that* long???" Liralen asks Jilara incredulously, even
>as that lady is handing her a snapper and a Thomas Kemper Helles. Liralen
>looks a little dazed and confused as she runs through her memories, "I
>remember that I first appeared in the fall, after a particularly ferocious
>soccer game, with Fezzik, just a teen-age pup at that time, on my heels;
>and that was mostly 'cause my sister Kathy, the Rev Mom, kept insisting
>that I visit. I remembered that it *wasn't* the same fall that I had the
>Callahan's folks over for Thanksgiving," she frowns in perplexity, "which
>I *think* was last fall."
Jim cracks a grin.
"I remember that, Liralen," he says, "especially because I was walking
across the dance floor at the time, and Fezzik, in his ethusiam for
the Place, bowled me over in his passing."
"Heck of a way to be introduced to a huge black hyperactive dog..."
John Charles Fiala
you're back at! Welcome!"
I grin. "He's also re-appeared on the muds. Cool.
"Having talked with Jilara, I have been told I am,
indeed an old timer, and therefore I get a drink. Mountain
Dew, Mike?"
Having recieved my drink. "Well, I think that's about
it for me... I'm a bit out of it right now due to being up
all night refining a program for computer graphics class."
George looks up, and scowels. {He's been doing this all
nighter thing, and didn't need to. The sucker was 'finished',
and he had to spend 3 hours on a small pop up window to
enter file names.} George yawns (like only a cat can), and
twitches his tail. { For those who want to stop by and chat,
John and I are pretty solidly ensconced here at this table,
whichever it is. Except for when I manage to draw him
away. Like this.}
George looks directly up, and, following the motion, I do
so likewise. Balanced on the rafter above is a bucket, with
a string dangling from it. My eyes widen as George reaches
out with a hind paw, and, from a safe distance, upsets the
bucket so that the entire fill of cold water dumps directly
on me, now looking like a 5'2" or so Chinese girl, with
red hair and a ponytail.
"GEORGE!" I yell, and jump for the cat, my drink ignored,
as George scrambles down, across the floor, and amoung tables,
me following him yelling at the twerp. Mike, looking on, sighs,
and begins boiling some water, muttering "If this keeps up
I'm going to have to buy more teapots."
-john
Actions have Consequences
jf...@andrew.cmu.edu
Erik Nielsen
>who is just one of these run-of-the-mill, wet-behind-the-ears,
>pick-your-own-cliche new-timers :-).
The giant smiles kindly in Peter's direction. "Hey, Dad, you want
me to hand you you geritol and cane? Also, I believe your order of Retin-A
came in. I'll leave it in reach of your walker. Oh, and remember what the
doctor said about drinking at your age...." Hee-hee-hee...
Erik, the young 'un, BFG
>;-)
Erik Nielsen I "All those moments will be lost in time,
eri...@ocf.berkeley.edu I like tears in rain."
"More Human than Human" I Roy
Tyrell Coporation I _Blade Runner_
P'relan
"I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
P'relan looks up from the birthday party and says, ``I could use that virtual
noisemaker here...of course, I was only lurking in the beginning and didn't
post until after that date, but if you don't mind...''
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P'relan "Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie
jwwa...@miavx1.bitnet A fly can't bird, but a bird can fly
jwwa...@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu Ask me a riddle and I reply:
P're...@Callahans.FluxMUCK 'Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie'"
(134.53.1.31 2112) - A.A. Milne
<<Hey! That's my sig!>>
``Can't I borrow it?''
<<Ok, as long as you give credit.>>
``Give credit? I did...''
<<No, to me...you never read Pooh...>>
``Just because you always keep the book!''
<<I'm hungry!>>
``Just like you, changing the subject...ok, let's send our RL selves to dinner,
but we'll have to stay here since Toothpick'll surely need draconic help in
blowing out that many candles (-:''
The Polymath
}"I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
}raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
The Polymath raises a hand (the other being occupied with the usual brew).
"I'm sure I was here before then. The noisemakers I've been playing with
in RL lately are a bit inappropriate though. I trust you've something
friendlier than a .45 ACP? (-: "
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: holl...@ttidca.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA 90405 {rutgers|pyramid|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
Zachary Frey
"Has it really been that long?" Zach raises his hand, a little tiredly.
"I think I must be an old-timer, because I'm sure I remember *Jilara's*
introduction..." :^)
"WELL, I guess this is a good time for two announcements. The first is
that I've moved electronically. I decided that it was time to make my own
way in the electronic community, and am now paying for WELL access. Please
mail me here instead of to my buster.cps.msu.edu address."
"Make that the traditional, Mike."
Zach picks up his GlenFiddich (neat) from the bar. "The second is that
work will be bringing me to the Las Vegas area around September 29 for about
a week. I'd love to hear from any local Callahanian's for a RealSpace."
"To Dilemmas, Discipline, and Real Life(tm)! And to 'good enough',
sometimes. May I figure out what that is."
<*crash*>
Ryk E Spoor
"Well, I don't count as an Old Timer here on Callahans, but I almost
feel like it.
"The Outpost (Intrauniversal Outpost Seven) was a very similar
venue, and I invented and ran it on a university computer system... oh,
must be six years ago now.
"So in a way I've been in this place without knowing it for years."
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Doug Quarnstrom
> Jilara writes:
> > "I propose a small party---everyone who was here before December 31, 1989,
> > raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
>
> January 1990. Is that allowable?
I have been here since then.
One of the old timers.
Thinking of leaving for awhile.
doug
Steve Savitzky
reddish-brown Cheshire cat. "We were here. My archive says I first
posted on Dec 11. (I was a medium-sized teddybear back in the old
days before I became a fractal.) I'll have a glass of Genever..."
Snuggles, in her guitar case over at Table 28x, cuts in. "I was here
too, and if you ask for any virtual noisemaker but me I'll go flat on
you! Mike, I'll have some Martin guitar polish and a set of strings.
Tungsten-wrapped graphite fiber, if you have it."
--
\ --Steve Savitzky-- \ ADVANsoft Research Corp \ FREE CYBERIA! \
\ st...@advansoft.COM \ 4301 Great America Pkwy \ Committee for a Free and \
\ arc!st...@apple.COM \ Santa Clara, CA 95954 \ Independent Cyberspace \
\__ st...@arc.UUCP _________408-727-3357___________________________________
Jane Beckman
I couldn't actually come in for a month, because our system didn't allow
posting. Of course, then I discovered the joy of remote servers..."
She hands noisemakers to all the lurkers. She tosses one off into the
farther shadows, where a friend who has lurked, but never posted, is still
hidden in the recesses. "She introduced me to Usenet," she explains. "I owe
her a lot. If I hadn't discovered the net, I wouldn't have found Callahans,
and I wouldn't have met all these neat people, including the man who was to
become my husband. (Yep, our first meeting was when he bought me a brandy
in Callahans---tell that one to friends and relatives!)" She gives Alaric
a little-longer-than-quick hug.
The party seems to be shaping up rapidly. There are more folks here than
one might expect...
Jilara the Exile [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
"Amazingly enough, my life is based on a true story." --Ashleigh Brilliant
Kate Gregory
A voice, familiar to a few, drifts over The Place. "This
would have been better if I could figure how to do it
from my new account. But, sieze the moment is better, I think."
The speaker moves into the well lit part of Callahans. Katya
has a five month old baby on her hip. "This is how you looked
in November of 1989," she says to the child, setting her down
on the floor, "and I know I was posting then."
Beth shimmers a minute and a two year old is standing there. Sturdy.
Happy. Curly-headed.
"We've been away," her mother continues, "but we're back
now. And while we were in the shadows thinking about things,
Taldin pops in. Then Liralen. So I decided to speak up. And,
I think, to stay a while.
"The RL me is moving. I'll keep this account for months, using
my new one to rlogin here. Perhaps I'll get too busy again.
Right now I'm hoping I won't."
Katya fishes around for a pair of loonies, then remembers Jilara's
offer. She looks up and Mike has red wine waiting, and -- Katya
laughs. "Apple juice, 2 ounces, with 4 ounces of water, in a
Gerber bottle with a regular nipple! Mike, kids grow. Beth,
do you want a drink?" "Red juice, Mummy." "Red juice it is. In-a-cup?"
The words have the ring of a familiar question, a ritual almost.
"In a cup, Mummy." "Do you need a lid?" "No lid, Mummy. I bigger."
Katya can't contain a grin at this announcement. "OK, angel, red
juice in a cup, no lid. Here we go.
"Later, Beth, we'll do something special with these. Something
we can't do at home. But for now we'll sit here and drink them,
and smile at the people we remember."
"Doggie?" says Beth looking at Fezzik.
Jane Beckman
the beginning, because I was in email correspondence with you, before I ever
made it into The Place. And if you don't remember, I managed to exit
ghosthood (as opposed to lurker status) by your being good enough to post
something I sent you FOR me!"
Jason Zions
ponytail down to about the shoulderblades. An extremely solid looking
person; slight spare tire, but that's about it. The only real distinguishing
characteristic is the bag he wears on his back; it seems sort of the shape
of a saxophone (darn good thing, too, since that's what's in there).
"My, oh my," he says, as he strolls to the bar. "It certainly is old home
week here, Mike; the synchronicity in the universe continues to amaze me."
Mike chuckles a little at this, as he turns around to grab the bottle of
Laphroig 15yr off the second-from-the-top shelf. The grin remains on his
face as he turns back to the bar, grabbing a glass and pouring three
fingers' worth.
"Jazz, it must be more than a year since I've seen you here. Where've you
been?"
"It's the usual story; seems I got cut off from my usual access to the
Place, and was so buzy at the time that I almost welcomed the extra time I
gained from not hanging out here. A few times I felt the need and tried to
make it here, but the auspices were not in alignment. In other words, some
dingbat upstream from me filtered alt.* and, well, you know the rest."
Turning away from the bar, glass in hand, Jazz drains the glass as he
strolls to the Line. Considering the speed with which the aqua vitae drained
from the glass, an observer would nonetheless get the feeling that every
drop was savored and given its full due on the short journey past the
palate.
"I've missed scratching Fezzik behind the ears; I've lost out on watching
Beth grow up; although I work in the same building I've missed the broad-
casts from Radio Free Colorado; I've missed Jilara, the various dragons and
associated riders, various cats (hypoallergenic in this space), and scads
more whom I couldn't begin to name.
"I was here when Fezzik first entered, human pet in tow; got drenched the
first time he shook off the result of the lake out front. I remember the
huge argument that raged regarding Doug (daq@hpfcso) calling himself the
Cynic; so many tried to tell him he wasn't! Robots bootstrapping themselves
into sentience, modifying innards to rival the flexibility of every kitchen
tool ever hawked on TV after 3 am. I remember the first hand of Story Poker
played at table 23B. I think I won exactly one hand, but somehow always came
out ahead at the end of every session. Funny, that...
"But I'm being long-winded, again; a useful attribute as a reed player,
nonetheless annoying when one is toeing the line. So, a toast: Be it ever so
humble, there's no place like soul's home." The glass is tossed into the
fireplace, where it shatters as it is wont to do.
"Mike, could I have a Guinness, please?" He pulls a single from a sterling
silver money clip, exchanges it for the pint, and walks in the general
vicinity of 23B. There's a little hitch in his walk, which seems to have the
effect of settling the gig bag on his back a little more securely.
--
Jazz ja...@jazz.cnd.hp.com
--
This is not an official statement of The Hewlett-Packard Company. No
warranty is expressed or implied. The information included herein is not to
be construed as a committment on HP's part. The devil made me do it. This
won't save me from the lawyers' wrath, but it can't hurt.
Jason Zions The Hewlett-Packard Company
Colorado Networks Division 3404 E. Harmony Road
Mail Stop 102 Ft. Collins, CO 80525 USA
ja...@cnd.hp.com (303) 229-3800
Shadow
>raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
"Hey! That's me!" says a Shadow, with some surprise. "Does this
mean that's my cue to apologize for never writing any more?" Shadow grins,
and tosses another dollar at Mike, unskillfully folded into a crude paper
airplane.
Shadow
--
From the only slightly twisted mind of... "The advocate will refrain from
ez00...@pollux.ucdavis.edu making her opponent disappear."
Laura Hayes Burchard
>raise hands, and it will qualify you for a drink and a virtual noisemaker!"
A passing Traveller pops her head in the door. "Does it count if you've
been here and gone, been here and gone?" She briefly considers the
calendar. "Egad, six years on the Net, can it really have been so long?"
Traveller
--
Laura Burchard lh...@virginia.edu lh...@virginia.bitnet #inc <std.disclaimer>
..this is the staring unsleeping
Eye of the earth, and what it watches is not our wars.
-Robinson Jeffers
Jim Bailey
In a dark corner a pile of cobwebs starts to move. Out of the dust
a middle aged man appears. He wanders over to the bar and greets
Mike. "Yes, I have decided to non-lurk long enough to make several
toasts." With that he lays five singles down on the bar and collects
a row of shot glasses of tequilla with the necessary salt and lime.
Walking over to the line, he mutters some comment about being almost
a month behind in his readings of the transcripts which his friend
pogo has been keeping for him. Then waiting for a moment of quiet he
starts talking.
I have been lurking here since November 1989. Not much to say so I
usually keep quiet, but some friends just pointed out you don't need
a persona to exist so I decided to post. Being around Callahans has
been good for me in a number of ways. Many conversations which have
covered topics I have also been interested in.
With this, he tosses back the first of the shots and says
"To Callahans"
as the shards are hitting the fireplace.
Next, I have met a number of friends here in email and more recently
in real life. Thanks to Mandelbear and Colleen and their household
for a very enjoyable evening.
"To Friends" is the words of the second drink.
When I got back from my trip, my son was ill. We went to the doctor
and then to the hospital. He had his appendix removed Friday afternoon
and will be home tomorrow.
"To good doctors and good health" comes from the third glass.
I just talked to one of my committee members and it looks like my
dissertation will be acceptable, with some rewriting. Better than
my worst fears about being rejected. After many years, it feels good.
"To learning to accept success and finish projects" is the fourth
toast.
Finally, I have learned so much and have found life so much better than
it ever has been before. It is sometimes painful to grow and change,
but it is so much nicer when it finally comes together.
"To life"
As he walks back to his corner, the patrons realize he is drunk on
the joy of living, not on the alcohol.
WildCard
when this group was only a month old (Oct of 89). Guess that qualifies
me as well as an old timer. Hey, Mike! Does this mean I get a senior
citizen's discount on my drinks? :)"
--
_ __ _ __ Remember: The WildCard always stacks
' ) / // / / ) / the deck in his favor. Anyone care
/ / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ for a game of strip poker? My deal.
(_(_/ <_</_(_/ (__/ (_/|_/ (_(_/_ (wga...@cs.ulowell.edu)
The Polymath
}Jilara grins at Polymath. "I am pretty sure you were here from just about
}the beginning, because I was in email correspondence with you, before I ever
}made it into The Place. And if you don't remember, I managed to exit
}ghosthood (as opposed to lurker status) by your being good enough to post
}something I sent you FOR me!"
Polymath smacks his head. "Of course! You're such a fixture here I'd
nearly forgotten how we first met. We've certainly come a long way since
then. I can hardly imagine the Place without you.
"Here's to nostalgia -- it ain't what it used to be." (-: <crash>
Phyllis Rostykus
>"Oldtimers, huh?", WildCard asks in a tired-sounding voice. "Well, I remeber
>when this group was only a month old (Oct of 89). Guess that qualifies
>me as well as an old timer. Hey, Mike! Does this mean I get a senior
>citizen's discount on my drinks? :)"
At the tired sounding voice, Fezzik's head comes up. Another Friend! Better
yet, friend Fezzik remembers happily chasing out by the lake at one of the
picnics, long, long ago...
Carefully, Fezzik gets up, and then licks all of Beth's face in affection.
Then, once he is sure that he's clear of her and her toys, he bounds
straight for WildCard....
Jeffrey Young
"My. Certainly is the month to come out of the woodwork, isnt' it..."
Taldin *icks*. "Since when did the default news posting editor become
EMACS? I *hate* Emacs! Ickety ickety oop."
Taldin seems genuinely pleased to see Liralen again. "Hai, long time
no see. Hope things are okay."
"And by the way, the start date for Callahans is November 5, 1989. I'm
obviously not archiving the Place anymore, but I still have the old back
issues, on my hard drive. The Place is a bit too fast paced for me
to really keep up right now, but I'll do my best.."
"Jilara, hai, I got your message, but I can't reply to it. I *can* talk
to Alaric, tho..."
"Toothpick, a rather belated happy birthday...*hug*"
"And no, Sudrith, you can't try any pizza. Have some cake instead. It has
sugar in it."
<< Oh. Okay... >>
Taldin and Sudrith
Lurking About...
Ryk E Spoor
>Taldin *icks*. "Since when did the default news posting editor become
>EMACS? I *hate* Emacs! Ickety ickety oop."
"You shouldn't gripe. Over here, the default is VI, which is of course
spawn of satan and unusable by anything human. Emacs, at least, I can get to
do the bare essentials: full screen edit and save.
"I have no other choices here."
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Y'know, while I hate mode-based text editors on general principle, I've
never been able to understand why people hate vi so much. After a
(somewhat) heated discussion with Unity.*, I finally realized that most
people never bother to read the vi manual.
Folks, there's a reason why vi has lasted so long and done so well: it
does the job. It works. And, it is in fact a pretty damn powerful
editor. Granted, emacs is more powerful by virtue of its better
language -- but vi is easier to pick up in many ways, and *much* better
on a slow modem line.
And I absolutely *detest* the default emacs key bindings. Then again,
though, I'm one of the people who thinks the Wordstar layout is
mnemonic......
--
--- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
@netcom.com
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Randolph Fritz
with cane -- creak creak pop) "You just don't know when you have it
good. Yeah! I remember editing programs by removing and replacing
punch cards. Unh-huh! And hacking card punch programs to duplicate
cards.
"These days choosing a default editor is a shell game.
"The other night I was playing Scrabble with a friend. We got down to
the last few letters . . . and the Q (there's only one, and it's worth
ten points -- as much as any letter) still hadn't appeared. I got the
last two tiles -- no Q -- and waited for my opponent (not one of our
regular posters, though she may be lurking) to play the Q next to the
only accessible U. 'Don't you have the Q?' 'Don't you?' 'No! And
shouldn't there be another blank tile?'
"So we counted up. We were short quite a few A's, E's, I's . . . it
was mostly vowels missing. We decided that the set must have been
disemvoweled."
|\/|\/|
| | ||\ /|
| | || \/||
|\ /| | || | ||
| \/|| | || | || Randolph Fritz
| | || | || | || sun!cognito.eng!randolph
| | || | || | || rand...@eng.sun.com
| | || | || | || Mountain View, California, North America, Earth
| | || | || | ||
| | || | || | ||
|\| ||\/ \/|\| ||
\/ \/
Stephen McNamara
> "You shouldn't gripe. Over here, the default is VI, which is of course
>spawn of satan and unusable by anything human. Emacs, at least, I can get to
>do the bare essentials: full screen edit and save.
> "I have no other choices here."
The brumby looks across at the Sea Wasp.
"Well around here they put vi on their machines. And tell you which keys
are the cursor keys. And until very recently that was it. Now lindblat seems
to have emacs on it but I haven't played with that yet....
"Does anybody have any theories as to why a machine would be called
lindblat? Nobody here seems to have any idea."
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
--
The Silver Brumby of int...@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
the Silicon Plains brumby%phoenix.pu...@munnari.oz.au
The grass is always greener on the other side of the network link.
Ryk E Spoor
>A balding man in a corner pipes up: "Awww you youngsters!" (Bangs
>with cane -- creak creak pop) "You just don't know when you have it
>good. Yeah! I remember editing programs by removing and replacing
>punch cards. Unh-huh! And hacking card punch programs to duplicate
>cards.
Hey, don't you yell at ME gramps. I learned to do COBOL on
punch cards! That's right, COBOL, where it takes a three-inch stack of
cards just to write your goddam name.
Aahz, I hate VI because I have tried to use it (with the instructions
available here) and it does not work. I know two commands for EMACS (kill
line and exit editing) and that's all I need or use.
Personally I prefer (of the mainframe editors available here)
EDT on the VMS system. However, I can't get News from there.
The only PROPER way to go, though, is mouse/window control screen
editing. Something that Eunuchs will never understand without violent
instruction.
Oh, did I spell UNIX wrong again...? :)
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Jim Gaynor
>In article <181...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> res...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Ryk E Spoor) writes:
>>In article <-swn...@rpi.edu> you...@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Young) writes:
>>>Taldin *icks*. "Since when did the default news posting editor become
>>>EMACS? I *hate* Emacs! Ickety ickety oop."
>>
>> "You shouldn't gripe. Over here, the default is VI, which is of course
>>spawn of satan and unusable by anything human. Emacs, at least, I can get to
>>do the bare essentials: full screen edit and save.
>> "I have no other choices here."
>
>Y'know, while I hate mode-based text editors on general principle, I've
>never been able to understand why people hate vi so much. After a
>(somewhat) heated discussion with Unity.*, I finally realized that most
>people never bother to read the vi manual.
>
>Folks, there's a reason why vi has lasted so long and done so well: it
>does the job. It works.
Aahz, you could justify the existence of EDLIN (MS-DOS) on the same
principles. Bleck. But then again, I run a VMS system - I get to use
things like EVE/TPU and EDT rather than EMACS or VI <shudder>.
gail.j.valentine
Oh, thank you! I've been trying and trying to decide for *so* long...now
I have the definitive answer...I'm definitely *not* human! :-)
Gail Valentine
Mean Green Dancing Machine
> "It's like the kludged version of WordPerfect (WORD IMPERFECT!) that
>allows mouse usage but in actuality is just the Same Old Thing."
> He lifts a WordPerfect manual and lets it drop with an audible
>THUD. "NO word processor should require more than 20 pages of instructions,
>let alone 1,400."
Okay, Mister Smarty-pants, let's see you write such a program -- and
using on-line help doesn't count, it's got to be less than 20 pages of
instruction, period. You may not like it -- and you are free to go
elsewhere -- but it is not possible IMNSHO to create a word processing
package with the breadth and depth of WordPerfect and not have pages and
pages of manual.
Of course, you may be one of those who hate the Swiss Army Knife
approach to word processors, but the market is voting with its dollars.
Ryk E Spoor
>"Oh, and Sea Wasp," he tosses over his shoulder, "you *can* make Emacs and
>mice and window systems play well; if you have a few of those useful keys
>like >>Delete Char<< and >>Delete Line<< and the like, you can ignore the vast
>majority of the emacs Control-Meta-Footpedal-q commands.
"Yes..." concedes the Wasp, "but why would you WANT to??? When there
are a dozen REAL screen editors made for mice and windows? No Special Commands
at all, all pull-down or pop-up menus.
"It's like the kludged version of WordPerfect (WORD IMPERFECT!) that
allows mouse usage but in actuality is just the Same Old Thing."
He lifts a WordPerfect manual and lets it drop with an audible
THUD. "NO word processor should require more than 20 pages of instructions,
let alone 1,400."
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Jason Zions
"Taldin, you old firestone-chewer, 'tis been a dog's age. I'm amazed,
though, at your ability to import into the Place the canonical netnews
flamefest, i.e. the Editor Wars. Fortunately, the denizens here are a bit
more, um, polite, than those in some other newsgroups.
"Oh, and Sea Wasp," he tosses over his shoulder, "you *can* make Emacs and
mice and window systems play well; if you have a few of those useful keys
like >>Delete Char<< and >>Delete Line<< and the like, you can ignore the vast
majority of the emacs Control-Meta-Footpedal-q commands.
"Editor wars and all, it's good to see you again, Taldin."
Jazz
Ryk E Spoor
>What? You want to turn my poor IBM into a Macintosh??? (I think GUIs are a
>bad idea; too much can get messed up with you need precision... but I recognise
>the need for them, as they are easy to use).
Anyone who uses an I Bought Manure deserves to suffer. I only use
them because the goddamn things are ubiquitous and impossible to escape
completely..
Macintoshes are tolerable, but still annoying and overpriced. (anything
that thinks small monochrome screens are the way to go deserves the death
penalty)
>>It should not require more than 10-20 pages to show you how to USE the
>>program [...]
>WP is bad... but not THAT bad. All I needed was the keyboard lay-on
>thingiemcbob, which labeled what each key did. After that, it was really easy
>to use, particularly with the online help.
Tell that to the 30 or so students who come in each day and cannot
figure out some of the simplest commands.
Not to mention that in areas the manual out-right lies (claiming
on the one hand to try to display text exactly as it will be printed,
then later on admitting that it can'd display ANYTHING like it's going
to look when you print it...)
If it ain't WYSIWYG, I don't want to hear about it.
(But I still HAVE to hear about it because all these people are
USING the things...)
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
William D Yang
> In fact, I find the usage of the God approach to WP (all things to
>all people) to be a nice concept with bad execution. There should be
>a toggle setting -- to allow [for differing levels of functionality]
Note the very political cut job there <g>... I'll just tell you that there IS
such a function, to be found under either alt or control F1 (under setup). One
-CAN- choose how the interface works to a great extent; although you can't
change the function keys, you CAN assign almost every other key by defining a
macro, which will do the work for you; I made mine emulate QEdit (by Semware),
because of the incredible ease I have with it's style; and I did all of it
without a manual (although I did get a little technical assistance from the
1-800 number, totalling under two hours over a one month period).
> Most of the instructions could be redefined, or made irrelevant
>by proper INTERFACES (iconic representation, quick definition functions).
What? You want to turn my poor IBM into a Macintosh??? (I think GUIs are a
bad idea; too much can get messed up with you need precision... but I recognise
the need for them, as they are easy to use).
>It should not require more than 10-20 pages to show you how to USE the
>program [...]
WP is bad... but not THAT bad. All I needed was the keyboard lay-on
thingiemcbob, which labeled what each key did. After that, it was really easy
to use, particularly with the online help.
All you need to know to use WP can be said well in less than 5 pages. I should
know, I wrote one for WP5.0 which is currently in use at my computer lab. I'll
even mail you a copy, for a small fee... <evil capitalistic grin>
> The major problem isn't so much having all those choices; it's that
>the interface sucks and the manual is opaque.
I didn't have the problems you're talking about... and trust me, I'm no genius.
Ask Thenomain (Kent Jenkins). He'll tell you how hard it was for me to get
used to UNIX, coming out of MS DOS and AmigaDos....
> Sea Wasp
-Ray, the guy-who-needs-a-shorter-title... <G>
--
William D. Yang wy...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Yan...@osu.edu
"Ray," the semi-demi-quasi-pseudo Lurker and chinese chef on alt.tuesdays...
It's my opinion, but if you really want it, you an have it for a nominal fee.
WildCard
Wayne (as he prefer's to be called when he's not in his superhero costume)
finishes his toast and turns his back towards the door, thus prevneting him
from see who enters until they're already inside. This is defiantely NOT
WildCard's lucky day.
As he begins to nurse yet another strong drink, Wayne ponders over the ongoing
conversations in the Place. He comments on one of them, revieling his dark
side for the first time to the patrons. He's please to see no one thinks
lesser of him because of it (or at least doens't show their disapproval).
Thus, Wayne is caught totally by surprise at what now happens.
While Mike Callahan has some strong chairs in his place around the tables, none
are designed to hold the amount of weight this one now has on it as Fezzik
leaps upon Wayne's lap, front paws on his shoulders, and begins licking Wayne's
face, pleased to see his old swimming partner. The chair collapses under the
combined weight of both Wayne and Fezzik, and Wayne is again trapped under
Fezzik, unable to stop the friendly dog from showing his affection. Wayne's
cries for help bring a round of laughter from the patrons in attendance (seeing
as Wayne is not being harmed by the dog, just trapped under him).
"Current score: Fezzik 3, Wayne zip!", someone cries out who obviously
remembers last summer's barbeque by the lake where Wayne met, got dunked in the
lake, and tackled by Fezzik during the events of that day.
"Fezzik, get offa me!", Wayne cries helplessly as the dog continues to lick his
face. All Wayne's pushes can't budge the dog from over him. Unfortunately
(for Wayne that is), Fezzik either can't understand him, or isn't listening.
Eventually, Fezzik looses interest in Wayne (for the moment), and preceeds to
visit another patron in the Place. Wayne, however, looks like he just got
caught in a heavy rain (from the neck up), but doesn't look worse for the wear.
In fact, he looks a little more cheerful.
"Fezzik, I'm going to get you for this!", Wayne declares, smiling. "However,
thanks for cheering me up. Guess I needed it.
"Oh, well. Off to fight with my insurence company. Wish me luck, folks."
And with that, Wayne heads out the Place, intent on returning as soon as he
can, hopefully with good news this time.
Ryk E Spoor
>Okay, Mister Smarty-pants, let's see you write such a program -- and
>using on-line help doesn't count, it's got to be less than 20 pages of
>instruction, period. You may not like it -- and you are free to go
>elsewhere -- but it is not possible IMNSHO to create a word processing
>package with the breadth and depth of WordPerfect and not have pages and
>pages of manual.
Love the way you set conditions that I don't agree to. Online,
QUICK, EFFICIENT online help, is considerably superior to textual manuals.
In fact, I find the usage of the God approach to WP (all things to
all people) to be a nice concept with bad execution. There should be
a toggle setting -- to allow those who just want to WRITE to write (thereby
having maybe 5-10 commands available) -- and those who want to digitize
their kitchen sink and translate it into GOthic Script to do it by
switching to the Psychotic Mode (5 trillion commands, none of which do
anything REALLY different from the first 5-10, but ain't it neat to
have that many available?)
I work in a computer lab for a school that uses WordPerfect 5.1
constantly. I find the manual to be badly written, nearly unusable, and
most of the defined functions to be ones used by perhaps 1% of the
population.
Most of the instructions could be redefined, or made irrelevant
by proper INTERFACES (iconic representation, quick definition functions).
It should not require more than 10-20 pages to show you how to USE the
program, and any other functions are ones whose operations should be
intuitively obvious or which can be explained by simple online popups.
Wanna include a figure on your paper? grab and draw a box, or
choose a define function if you want a precise size box (say, for publishing
layout). Then choose Include Picture and choose from the menu of formats
available...
The major problem isn't so much having all those choices; it's that
the interface sucks and the manual is opaque.
I'm not going to be a programmer; but I will be designing interfaces.
My baseline requirement for an interface: a new user should be able to
look at it and start doing the basic things without EVER LOOKING AT THE
MANUAL.
(I did that with my word processing program; I do not own a manual
for it, and have never needed one.)
Sea Wasp
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>>Okay, Mister Smarty-pants, let's see you write such a program -- and
>>using on-line help doesn't count, it's got to be less than 20 pages of
>>instruction, period. You may not like it -- and you are free to go
>>elsewhere -- but it is not possible IMNSHO to create a word processing
>>package with the breadth and depth of WordPerfect and not have pages and
>>pages of manual.
>
> Love the way you set conditions that I don't agree to. Online,
>QUICK, EFFICIENT online help, is considerably superior to textual manuals.
True. However, *you* said "less than 20 pages" -- I'm merely enforcing
your condition by making it completely explicit.
> In fact, I find the usage of the God approach to WP (all things to
>all people) to be a nice concept with bad execution. There should be
>a toggle setting -- to allow those who just want to WRITE to write (thereby
>having maybe 5-10 commands available) -- and those who want to digitize
>their kitchen sink and translate it into GOthic Script to do it by
>switching to the Psychotic Mode (5 trillion commands, none of which do
>anything REALLY different from the first 5-10, but ain't it neat to
>have that many available?)
> I work in a computer lab for a school that uses WordPerfect 5.1
>constantly. I find the manual to be badly written, nearly unusable, and
>most of the defined functions to be ones used by perhaps 1% of the
>population.
What's so hard about learning the 5-10 commands you need to know in
WordPerfect? Then, you *still* have the other commands when you need
them.
> Most of the instructions could be redefined, or made irrelevant
>by proper INTERFACES (iconic representation, quick definition functions).
>It should not require more than 10-20 pages to show you how to USE the
>program, and any other functions are ones whose operations should be
>intuitively obvious or which can be explained by simple online popups.
> Wanna include a figure on your paper? grab and draw a box, or
>choose a define function if you want a precise size box (say, for publishing
>layout). Then choose Include Picture and choose from the menu of formats
>available...
This is getting to be a *lot* more than "5 or 10 commands".
> The major problem isn't so much having all those choices; it's that
>the interface sucks and the manual is opaque.
Sez you. Not everyone agrees.
> I'm not going to be a programmer; but I will be designing interfaces.
>My baseline requirement for an interface: a new user should be able to
>look at it and start doing the basic things without EVER LOOKING AT THE
>MANUAL.
> (I did that with my word processing program; I do not own a manual
>for it, and have never needed one.)
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! You mean to tell me that someone who has never used a
computer, never used a typewriter, and never uses any hi-tech gadgets
can start using *any* word processing program without looking at the
manual? Anything else, and they're not a true "new user".
Your statement can only hold true if the user has already "bought into"
an interface system. A good example is the Macintosh: its value comes
from the consistency Apple has forced on the environment, *not* from any
inherent advantage to GUIs. GUIs do make certain things easier, but
they make other things more difficult.
A reminder: phonetic alphabets won out over hieroglyphics for a reason.
You also seem to be confusing editors with word processors: editors
produce text, word processors produce documents. Function for function,
word processors are inherently more overwhelming because of their
formatting capabilities.
Finally, I think you are confusing tutorials with references. With any
product, there needs to be a reference that specifies *everything* about
it, and the more complicated a system, the larger the reference. I can
teach a completely new user the basics of what they need to know in
about half an hour. With WordPerfect, at least, they won't need to
learn a new program in a couple of months....
Jane Beckman
had to bring the system up, every morning, by issuing commands in binary,
on the console keys. For you young 'un's, console keys have nothing to do
with keyboards, terminals, or any of that stuff.
"However, funny thing about punch cards (did you know I used to be able to
read the actual hollerith code on the cards?), vi, and nroff/troff. I've
written a lot of books using vi as my editor, and nroff/troff variants for
the *line* processing program. The commands are a lot like using a keypunch,
in that each line is a punchcard command. It can be text, or it can be a
system command... Just more deranged ramblings from another oldtimer."
-Jilara the Exile [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
"Amazingly enough, my life is based on a true story." --Ashleigh Brilliant
ras...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
>
> Hey, don't you yell at ME gramps. I learned to do COBOL on
>punch cards! That's right, COBOL, where it takes a three-inch stack of
>cards just to write your goddam name.
Careful now...some of us LIKE Cobol. Yes, honest to goodness I LIKE the
language!! :)
--* Cali *--
Michael S. Pereckas
>And I absolutely *detest* the default emacs key bindings. Then again,
>though, I'm one of the people who thinks the Wordstar layout is
>mnemonic......
The Wordstar bindings are a mess if you don't use QWERTY. I happen to
be one of those Dvorak freaks.
--
Michael Pereckas m-per...@uiuc.edu just another student
It [defense spending] buys complexity. The Mobile Bay is the most
complex thing I've ever been in, not counting love. ---P.J. O'Rourke
Michael S. Pereckas
> If it ain't WYSIWYG, I don't want to hear about it.
> (But I still HAVE to hear about it because all these people are
>USING the things...)
I'm not convinced that true WYSIWYG is possible with anything
resembling today's technology. Read {\em Digital Typography\/} by
Richard Rubinstein for more details. Basically, no reasonable monitor
has even the resolution of a low-end laser printer, never mind a
phototypesetter. Hence the screen display cannot be the same as the
printed output, and cannot simultaneously closely follow the size,
style, and spacing of the output and be highly readable. Further, the
cpu probably isn't fast enough. Even given a very fast cpu and a very
good display, there are a lot of unanswered questions, such as line
breaking (``wordwrap''). A good algorithm, such as \TeX's, looks at
the whole paragraph. How can this be done interactively in a
reasonable manner? I keep asking this question, and no one ever
answers.
Ryk E Spoor
>Careful now...some of us LIKE Cobol. Yes, honest to goodness I LIKE the
>language!! :)
"This is like people who enjoy being whipped with glass-tipped
cat'o nine tails, or shoving pins under their fingernails. It's a
strong neurosis, but it CAN BE CURED! Go see your therapist today."
Sea Wasp
Kevin Lincoln Flynn
and the Sea Wasp discuss Cobol.
"Careful now..." says rasvma, "some of us LIKE Cobol. Yes, honest to goodness
I LIKE the language!! :)" To which the Sea Wasp replies, "This is like
people who enjoy being whipped with glass-tipped cat'o nine tails, or shoving
pins under their fingernails. It's a strong neurosis, but it CAN BE CURED! Go
see your therapist today."
At this, Flynn bursts into laughter. "Neurosis depends on your point of view,
Sea Wasp. Why, the difference between peeling a scab off a cut and being
whipped with a glass-tipped cat o'ninetails is just a matter of degree, ne?"
He chuckles again and takes a sip of his drink. [ :) ]
----
Kevin Lincoln Flynn fl...@acm.rpi.edu, user...@mts.rpi.edu
494 Madison Avenue H (518) 432-0812
Albany, New York, USA 12208
....Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours. -- R. Bach
The Polymath
}Jilara laughs and assumes her "old lady" voice. "And I remember when I
}had to bring the system up, every morning, by issuing commands in binary,
}on the console keys. For you young 'un's, console keys have nothing to do
}with keyboards, terminals, or any of that stuff.
"I miss front panels. There's something about having to do wizardly things
in binary to bring up the system that really puts you in touch with the
reality of the machine."
}"However, funny thing about punch cards (did you know I used to be able to
}read the actual hollerith code on the cards?), vi, and nroff/troff. I've
}written a lot of books using vi as my editor, and nroff/troff variants for
}the *line* processing program. The commands are a lot like using a keypunch,
}in that each line is a punchcard command. It can be text, or it can be a
}system command... Just more deranged ramblings from another oldtimer."
"One of my main claims to being a Real Programmer(tm) and hacker is that I
wrote my master's thesis (in clinical psych!) using TECO and RUNOFF on a
PDP-11.
"Some day I'll be telling children how I used to program computers by
making square holes in cardboard -- and they won't believe me!
"Oh, my contribution to the editor debate: I use Rand e for everything
I do under Unix. It's a nice, sensible, no-nonsense screen editor."
He steps to the chalk line. "De gustibus non disputandum est!" <crash>
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
+---------------
| Flynn listens as "ras...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu" (ick! What's your name again?)
| and the Sea Wasp discuss Cobol.
|
| "Careful now..." says rasvma, "some of us LIKE Cobol. Yes, honest to goodness
| I LIKE the language!! :)" To which the Sea Wasp replies, "This is like
| people who enjoy being whipped with glass-tipped cat'o nine tails, or shoving
| pins under their fingernails. It's a strong neurosis, but it CAN BE CURED! Go
| see your therapist today."
|
| At this, Flynn bursts into laughter. "Neurosis depends on your point of view,
| Sea Wasp. Why, the difference between peeling a scab off a cut and being
| whipped with a glass-tipped cat o'ninetails is just a matter of degree, ne?"
Remember that circumstances may be involved as well: the alternative might be
PL/1.
++Brandon
--
Me: Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH: DC to LIGHT! [44.70.4.88]
Internet: all...@NCoast.ORG Delphi: ALLBERY
uunet!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery
John D Palmer
Well, I am an oldtimer, and I hope to be a newtimer sometime soon. . .
Could someone email -- the Ray about cleveland freenet so he can tell me
about it?
As for noisemakers. . . how about my favorite D&D magic item of all
time, a magical artifact. . . the Horn Named Wonk.
If you blow it, anyone will do almost ANYTHING as long as you
promise not to blow it again. . .
John
"WOOOOOOOOOOOONGK!"
--
"Love is cool; I mean, like, really cool. Like, the coolest thing in
the universe, where, like, people open up inside and show the world how
they feel, and they ain't afraid someone's gonna laugh because they, like,
love themselves already!" --Personality 42, a generic 60's philosopher
John D Palmer
>"I really think that even if you were lurking, you should count.
> Jilara the Exile [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
As a math teacher, I most humbly agree.
John F. Snyder
> In article <910927213...@echidna.swdc.stratus.com> ja...@STRATUS.SWDC.ST
> }Jilara laughs and assumes her "old lady" voice. "And I remember when I
> }had to bring the system up, every morning, by issuing commands in binary,
> }on the console keys. For you young 'un's, console keys have nothing to do
> }with keyboards, terminals, or any of that stuff.
>
> "I miss front panels. There's something about having to do wizardly things
> in binary to bring up the system that really puts you in touch with the
> reality of the machine."
>
> }"However, funny thing about punch cards (did you know I used to be able to
> }read the actual hollerith code on the cards?), vi, and nroff/troff. I've
> }written a lot of books using vi as my editor, and nroff/troff variants for
> }the *line* processing program. The commands are a lot like using a keypunch
> }in that each line is a punchcard command. It can be text, or it can be a
> }system command... Just more deranged ramblings from another oldtimer."
>
> "One of my main claims to being a Real Programmer(tm) and hacker is that I
> wrote my master's thesis (in clinical psych!) using TECO and RUNOFF on a
> PDP-11.
>
> "Some day I'll be telling children how I used to program computers by
> making square holes in cardboard -- and they won't believe me!
Strange as it may seem. I did computers backwards.
I started out in the late 70's playing on an Uncle's business
system. Games and such on a time share terminal in his office.
Then I took a computer class in high school. Where we did all our
work through a RJE (Remote Job Entry) Batch system. Using
Key-to-Disk machines and Keypunches.
College took me back to time-share, except for an assembly class
where we used paper tape to enter our programs into a PDP-11. Why
paper tape???? The Goddess only knows. Using the PDPs was
justified. The mainframe had a bug in the assembly routines, so that
it was VERY easy to crash the MF with an asm program.
When I was in the Military I worked on Data General Nova minis. Yes,
the progression continues. We had to boot them by flipping toggle
switches on the front panel. At least they then bootstraped from
disk.
Oh the Nova were fun. Up to two 1meg removable 12" hard disk units.
Expandable to 128K of CORE memory and a clock rate of 500 KHz (yes,
0.5 MHz). My PCjr came with 4 times the mem and ran at 8 times the
speed.
As to my preferred editor? Anything that does'nt emulate a keypunch.
\|/ Eoin
* ------
"When I knead my friends, they turn their backs."
eo...@eoin.infoserv.com GEnie: J.SNYDER18 eoin@woodowl
"My hardware, my system, my opinions."