What should I say to MENSA
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Don Paul wrote:
>
> DonPaul has been approached to address the local branch of MENSA.
>
> He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with some
> insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
>
> Advertising relies on team-work - but this gang are apparently highly
> individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
> brilliance.
>
> Any thoughts?
If you're not worried about stage fright and such, i.e. you've given a
lot of these talks, I suggest you keep the same format you've used
before. It hasn't been my experience that higher intelligence leads to
anything but extra speed in logic problems... since it requires
*education* to be able to shout more Jeopardy answers at the TV, I
expect you still know more about your field of expertise than most of
your audience will.
(However, I think I share your assumption that as a group, MENSA members
are intellectual snobs -- this is part of the reason I never joined. But
since I never attended a meeting, this is almost totally baseless
prejudice on my part, and tells you a lot more about me than it does
about MENSA... :/ )
Regards,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
http://www.concentric.net/~erick
Don Paul
DonPaul has been approached to address the local branch of MENSA.
He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with some
insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
Advertising relies on team-work - but this gang are apparently highly
individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
brilliance.
Any thoughts?
Personally, I take the Groucho Marx view on clubs such as this - ie
wouldn't join if they would accept me as a member. And I disapprove of the
exclusivity of this particular set - it's like having a club for (genuine)
blonde people with blue eyes. There but for the grace of God....
--
Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa
Table Mountain is in for repairs
curm...@flash.net
In article <01bccf04$826afe00$91c809c0@om>,
"Don Paul" <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>
> DonPaul has been approached to address the local branch of MENSA.
> He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with some
> insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
> Advertising relies on team-work - but this gang are apparently highly
> individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
> brilliance.
SamIAm grins in self-recognition. "Yeah, we got a saying in the
group--'leading Mensans is like herding cats.' Now--is someone in that
chapter saying that they have a problem *in that particular group* with
lack of teamwork, or was it instead a comment that Mensans in general
tend not to like working in teams? The two aren't at all the same thing,
and I can't tell from the way you phrased it which one we're looking at
here."
> Any thoughts?
"Yeah, as a survivor of twelve years in the group, and *lots* of
chapter meetings during that time. First: they ain't gonna bite yer
head off and spit down yer neck. It's possible that you'll encounter a
member who's combative simply because sie doesn't like advertising qua
advertising, but I think that you'll find most of them will want to hear
what you've got to tell them--because another trait common to Mensans is
an intense curiosity about everything in general. And some of the
members may be intense during the Question Time not because of hostility,
but because of a combination of interest in learning something they don't
know about and a pretty good snow job/bullshit detector. That's a
different thing from being 'a bunch of cynical smart-arses.' Wouldn't be
a bad idea, though, to carry along a bunch of peanuts from the Place, to
deal with the puns. Most Mensans I know are incorrigible paronomasiacs.
"Don't be afraid to run some complex concepts out there for the group;
you may not fetch 'em every one if you do, but you're in far more danger
if you bore them by over-simplification. Don't worry; if you get out
beyond them, somebody (or more likely several somebodies) will start
asking questions, and calling you on "how did you get there from here."
If it's like the groups I've known, you'll find the whole range from the
members who insist on Spock-like logic, to the severely intuitive (to the
point of appearing as flaky as a bowl of Post Toasties). Just don't bore
'em, and the rest of it should go pretty well."
> And I disapprove of the exclusivity of this particular set - it's like having
> a club for (genuine) blonde people with blue eyes. There but for the grace of
> God....
SamIAm suddenly finds himself again on his late-Victorian soapbox.
"DonPaul, practically every club that ever was is based on *some* sort of
exclusivity. For example, however much I might want to, I could never
join the Tall Club of Austin, because I'm not a man taller than 6'2" or a
woman taller than 5'11". I can't join the Veterans of Foreign Wars or
the American Legion because I never served in the armed forces. Should
I, then "disapprove" of veterans because I'm not a veteran, or of tall
people because I'm of average height?
"I feel that you may be projecting a belief that members of Mensa, as a
class, think they're "better" than you in some way. IME, that's not
what's going on--*as a class*. (Yes, there are individual members who
behave that way, and I think it's a wrong way to behave.) We aren't
better or worse, simply--different; and, responding to the human instinct
of like calling to like, we look for others similar to ourselves, to form
a group where we don't have to feel "different," every single minute of
the day. For we are, without doubt, different, ab-normal, "not"-normal,
in the sense that in this one respect, we are measured way out beyond the
"normal" range of the bell curve.
"But that's only invariably true *in this one respect*--the ability to
score highly on standardized tests. That ability doesn't necessarily
translate into the ability to be successful in business, or to be
socially popular, or to do good works of one sort or another, or anything
else about any of us. I know about Mensans on the unemployment line, in
prisons, in insane asylums, in homeless shelters, as well as the
successful and productive. Being a members of Mensa means only this--you
can achieve a certain score on a standardized intelligence test, and you
have $45 to pay the dues. Everything beyond that is up for grabs."
SamIAm collects his soapbox, and hollers, "Mike, cherry bounce and soda
for me, and one of whatever DonPaul's having for him. Speechifying like
this always dries me out."
SamIAm (American Mensa member 1095220, 1985-now)
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Jeanne Burton
Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote in article
<01bccf04$826afe00$91c809c0@om>...
> DonPaul has been approached to address the local branch of MENSA.
>
> He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with
some
> insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
My most sincere condolences, dear...hope your mensa group is NOTHING like
the mensa group *I* made the mistake of joining long ago and far away...a
stranger, less friendly group I've never met.
> Advertising relies on team-work - but this gang are apparently highly
> individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
> brilliance.
>
> Any thoughts?
Uh...conveniently contract a BAD case of the flu???
> Personally, I take the Groucho Marx view on clubs such as this - ie
> wouldn't join if they would accept me as a member. And I disapprove of
the
> exclusivity of this particular set - it's like having a club for
(genuine)
> blonde people with blue eyes. There but for the grace of God....
I met the qualifications and joined...I don't think the group I was
introduced to actually even accepts each other as members...they're all too
busy out-smarting each other to care about each other. Bad vibes. Bad
everything.
I do realize I'm speaking about ONE group that I encountered a total of 3
times. At the time, I REALLY was looking for someplace to fit in. I was a
barely 16-year old college student (talk about NOT fitting in) who had
never quite been accepted anywhere...I never did learn to hide my IQ very
well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't like
intelligent women much, and women like them even less. This is not only my
observation. As I've grown older, I've found people like me, and embraced
them wholeheartedly. My best friend is very similar to me in personality,
IQ, etc, and her experiences both in college and beyond have been very
similar to mine, as well...
So maybe I'm cynical about the whole exclusionist policy of mensa...maybe I
just saw what was there, but I hope your group is better than mine
Hugs,
Jeanne
Jean Hoehn
Don Paul wrote:
>
> DonPaul has been approached to address the local branch of MENSA.
>
> He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with some
> insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
>
> individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
> brilliance.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> wouldn't join if they would accept me as a member. And I disapprove of the
> exclusivity of this particular set - it's like having a club for (genuine)
> blonde people with blue eyes. There but for the grace of God....
I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
IQ is about 40 points to low to get in. If you've ever read anything by
James Randi (stage magician, skeptic and writer and one of my heros) He
tells of being a member but leaving after discovering that a large
majority of the group he was connected to believed in psychic
phenomenon, even after he had proven beyond all doubt the situtation and
person involved were fraudulant. Brains and common sense don't always
go together.
Dreamweaver
TrooGrit
>Any thoughts?
What works for me when having to speak before a group of individuals is humor.
Being from the Southern U.S. where the corn-pone accent is common, I try and
lay it on a little thicker than usual.
You've heard the old saying, they can kill you, but not eat you, because
canabilism is agaunst the law?
First, Do they sign your check?
Secondly, Are any of them related by blood to you?
Thirdly, Do you REALLY care if when they leave, they'll talk about you in
unflattering terms?
If the answers are no, no, and no, than throw these at them:
Q- Why do mice have small balls?
A- Because only 10% of them can dance.
Q- Why do firemen have bigger balls than the police?
A-They sell more tickets.
Q-What do you get when you cross a pig with a physicist?
A-Nothing, there's just some things a pig WON't do.
Or try this story...
A young man entered a grocery store and asked to purchase a case of dogfood.
The manager asks if the boy has a large dog, seeing as how he must pruchase so
much food at one time.
The boy answers...NO, it's my uncle. He won't eat nothing but dog food and
hasn't for years...
The manager replies that he must do all he can to discourage that because it
wasn't produced for human consumption, and it'll kill him.
The boy says the family has tried, but ol' Unc. won't eat anything but dog
food. The manager sells him the food with the reminder he try and change his
Uncles' diet.
This goes on for several weeks...Each time the grocery manager tells the young
man to keep trying because it'll end up kill his Uncle.
Then one afternoon the boy enters the store..The manager asks him if he needs
more food. The boy replies, No, he doesn't.
The manager asks why, and the boy replies because his Uncle has passed away.
The manager, looking slightly smug, replies....Well, I told you the dog food
would get him eventually..
The youth says...well mister....It wasn't the dog food that got him...He was
sitting in the middle of the road licking his dick, and a truck ran over
him................................
Thry that one..I guarentee they'll "howl"
Regards and good luck,
AL
Don Paul
Gary Rumain <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
<611ufc$4jm$7...@news.smart.net>...
> In alt.callahans Jean Hoehn <pjh...@mail.vbemail.net> wrote:
> : Don Paul wrote:
> : > Any thoughts?
>
> Polite ones, you mean?
Don't be silly! Polite never got a laugh!
>
>
> Well, if you really wanna tock 'em off, ask them how smart they think the
> average Playboy Bunny is, then remind them of the "Women of Mensa"
spread.
Ummm....South African Playboy ...if I ever saw it...didn't feature this!
If you'd like to download a few spreads for my research...
>
> : I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
> : IQ is about 40 points to low to get in.
>
> Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
Quite right, you picked up on someone else's comment in the thread, but I'm
more inclined to comment on the length of my willy (it's enormous) than the
height of my IQ:-}
Gary Rumain
: >
: > He has to entertain a bunch of cynical smart-arses for two hours with some
: > insights into advertising...and then set them a bit of a mind challenge.
: >
: > Advertising relies on team-work - but this gang are apparently highly
: > individualistic and not given to sharing the the credit for their
: > brilliance.
: > Any thoughts?
Polite ones, you mean?
: >
: > Personally, I take the Groucho Marx view on clubs such as this - ie
: > wouldn't join if they would accept me as a member. And I disapprove of the
: > exclusivity of this particular set - it's like having a club for (genuine)
: > blonde people with blue eyes. There but for the grace of God....
Well, if you really wanna tock 'em off, ask them how smart they think the
average Playboy Bunny is, then remind them of the "Women of Mensa" spread.
Now, if a woman wants to do that sort of thing, fine. But if she's doing
it for a special reason, she ought to think about it a little harder than
these women did. Their purpose was to prove that smart eomen are also
beautiful (i.e., against the stereotype). But, IMHO, all they did was
prove that no matter how intelligent or accomplished a woman is, she
still has to be a sex object to prove her worth.
IDIOTS!
: I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
: IQ is about 40 points to low to get in.
Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
If you've ever read anything by
: James Randi (stage magician, skeptic and writer and one of my heros) He
: tells of being a member but leaving after discovering that a large
: majority of the group he was connected to believed in psychic
: phenomenon, even after he had proven beyond all doubt the situtation and
: person involved were fraudulant. Brains and common sense don't always
: go together.
"I concur in spades" ("Carla Tortelli") See above example.
Susan Cohen
--
"Those who study history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
Kenny & Michelle Johnson
On 3 Oct 1997, Lee S. Billings wrote:
> In article <01bccf7a$ef0d0960$7623...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>,
> jea...@toltbbs.com says...
>
> >I never did learn to hide my IQ very
> >well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't
> like
> >intelligent women much, and women like them even less. This is not
> only my
> >observation. As I've grown older, I've found people like me, and
> embraced
> >them wholeheartedly. My best friend is very similar to me in
> personality,
> >IQ, etc, and her experiences both in college and beyond have been very
> >similar to mine, as well...
>
> Obviously not all men are like that, since you now have a SO who values
> you for the person you are. My experience has been that emotionally
> mature men of any age are more likely to be attracted to a highly
> intelligent woman than threatened by her. Now, admittedly, emotionally
> mature men often seem to be in the minority <g>, but the point stands.
>
ken-e cautiously looks around the room, really hoping not to offend
anyone. "Maybe this makes me emotionally immature, but I am more
attracted to are <be careful, this could get ugly> a little lower on the
IQ scale. I'm not intimidated by smart women. I had a number of study
partners in college who were a lot smarter than me. We got to be good
friends. But I'm attracted to those less smart.
BTW, Michelle, my Lifetime Partner In All Things (tm) has the terriffic
quality of seeming naive, while actually being quite a brain.
_ _ ____ _ _ ____
( )/ ) ( __) ( \( ) _ ( __) Adopt the pace of nature: her secret
) ( ) _) ) ( (_) ) _) is patience. --Ralph Waldo Emerson
(_)\_) (____) (_)\_) (____) kajo...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu
The Polymath
Jeanne Burton wrote:
>I met the qualifications and joined...I don't think the group I was
>introduced to actually even accepts each other as members...they're all too
>busy out-smarting each other to care about each other. Bad vibes. Bad
>everything. ...
>So maybe I'm cynical about the whole exclusionist policy of mensa...maybe I
>just saw what was there, but I hope your group is better than mine
Different groups have different personalities. The smaller ones tend to
be dominated by the domineering, alas.
I'm fortunate enough to belong to one of the largest Mensa local groups
(Greater L.A.). Our solution to the politicizing pains in the butt is
to elect them to the Board of Directors, then ignore them. They meet
once a month to play their petty power games. The rest of us party. It
seems to work fairly well.
As for individually annoying members, there are enough of us to make
them a small minority who can also be easily avoided or ignored.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath
(818) 882-6309
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
Jeanne Burton
Jim Pierce <Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net> wrote in article
<611sjd$f...@examiner.concentric.net>...
> Jeanne wrote:
> [] never quite been accepted anywhere...I never did learn to hide
> [] my IQ very well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found
> [] that men don't like intelligent women much, and women like them
> [] even less.
>
> Really ? Hmm. Long ago, in elementary school a woman smarter than
> me would have caused me a problem... but not in a long time. Oh, we
> might not be able to talk about the same things, I have a hard time
> understanding Calculus for example.
SOME (note I said some, please??) men never have gotten out of the
"elementary school" mindset, evidently.
> But as long as she didn't use her high IQ to make fun of me, I
> wouldn't make fun of her for having a high IQ. I'm smarter than
> that. What is more likely, is that I would stop talking to her if
> she made fun of me.
And unfortunately, a lot of the time, smart women who don't pretend to
"dumb down" get made fun of...by a lot of people. I know people tend to
mistrust what they don't understand, but jeez...it does get ridiculous.
> I was told by my parents that folks who make fun of soeone because
> they are smarter, are jealous of the smart person.
That doesn't make it easier to take.
> I have been made fun of because I read so much...
Ohyeah. My first marriage (among other reasons, of course) broke up
because of my reading. he was a non-reader who saw my reading as a way of
shutting him out, or ignoring him. I saw it as barely less important than
breathing. Sucked. A lot.
Hugs,
Jeanne
The Polymath
Jean Hoehn wrote:
>I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
>IQ is about 40 points to low to get in. If you've ever read anything by
>James Randi (stage magician, skeptic and writer and one of my heros) He
>tells of being a member but leaving after discovering that a large
>majority of the group he was connected to believed in psychic
>phenomenon, even after he had proven beyond all doubt the situtation and
>person involved were fraudulant. Brains and common sense don't always
>go together.
I've been a Mensa member since 1975. To this day, I maintain that the
first thing you learn upon joining Mensa is that a high IQ is no
guarantee of intelligence. (However, it does improve the odds
considerably.)
Jennifer Hamilton
"Jeanne Burton" <jea...@toltbbs.com> writes:
>My most sincere condolences, dear...hope your mensa group is NOTHING like
>the mensa group *I* made the mistake of joining long ago and far away...a
>stranger, less friendly group I've never met.
Roozer wanders over to the conversation. "I know a lot of folks have had
bad experiences with Mensa, but for me it's been wonderful. I joined up
when I was 14... few sentients are as lonely or as desperate as an
overweight, bespectacled 14 year-old girl who likes math and science.
At least, that's how it was then.
"My first meeting I met a thin, gangly, 16-year-old social outcast
from high school... Well, it's 17 years later, and we've been married
for 11 of them.
"Sure, there were boring old coots, and folks who joined just for
bragging rights, and there's the sickening realization that someone can be a
certified genius (if you hear that phrase, run!) and still not share your
opinions, but that happens anywhere. There were also a lot of folks who
enjoy games & puns & going to movies & skiing & whatever.
"As for it being elitist? Most support groups are. And it was
certainly more frank about the requirements to become a member than than
the cliques in junior high (not a shining recommendation, I know) -- and
if you want to go to any of the get-togethers, well, they don't card
you at the door!"
--
Jennifer Hamilton Roozer jham...@umdnj.edu
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH; to reply, change void to kf8nh
In <611rtm$n...@camel12.mindspring.com>, on 10/03/97 at 04,
stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) said:
+-----
| >(However, I think I share your assumption that as a group, MENSA
| members
| >are intellectual snobs -- this is part of the reason I never joined.
| to be snobbish so much as pompous and dull. The conversations in the
+--->8
I was a member for a year. Wasn't worth the effort to attend meetings, after
the first few; I let it lapse.
--
brandon s. allbery [Team OS/2][Linux] b...@void.apk.net
cleveland, ohio mr/2 ice's "rfc guru" :-) KF8NH
Warpstock '97: OS/2 for the rest of us! http://www.warpstock.org
Memo to MLS: End The Burn Scam --- Doug Logan MUST GO! FORZA CREW!
Jeanne Burton
Lee S. Billings <stard...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<611sc6$n...@camel12.mindspring.com>...
> In article <01bccf7a$ef0d0960$7623...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>,
> jea...@toltbbs.com says...
>
> >I never did learn to hide my IQ very
> >well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't
> like
> >intelligent women much, and women like them even less. This is not
> only my
> >observation. As I've grown older, I've found people like me, and
> embraced
> >them wholeheartedly. My best friend is very similar to me in
> personality,
> >IQ, etc, and her experiences both in college and beyond have been very
> >similar to mine, as well...
>
> Obviously not all men are like that, since you now have a SO who values
> you for the person you are. My experience has been that emotionally
> mature men of any age are more likely to be attracted to a highly
> intelligent woman than threatened by her. Now, admittedly, emotionally
> mature men often seem to be in the minority <g>, but the point stands.
>
> Celine
>
Very true...and that's why I ADMITTED it was a sexist remark in my original
post. You're right, though, when you say they're few and far between.
Here's to the one I got!!!!
Hugs,
Jeanne
WareWolf96
>The manager, looking slightly smug, replies....Well, I told you the dog food
> would get him eventually..
>The youth says...well mister....It wasn't the dog food that got him...He was
> sitting in the middle of the road licking his dick, and a truck ran over
> him................................
>Thry that one..I guarentee they'll "howl"
>Regards and good luck,
>AL
THAT was Disgusting! I like that in a joke.
BTW, do you know why dogs lick themselves?
Becuase they can.
Dusty
Jim Pierce
Susan Cohen
[] Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
What do I sound like ? My IQ is 102.
Well, the test was in 7th grade. [shrug]
I don't think of Penthouse women as idiots. They make lots of
money. The women that make me sad are the ones who wind up in sweat
shops making shirts for less than a dollar each shirt.
DJ.
--
Jim
" Don't get discouraged...remember, when Cher first started going to the
spa, she already looked like Cher." Jake Vest.
Lee S. Billings
In article <34338F...@pop3.concentric.net>,
er...@pop3.concentric.net says...
>(However, I think I share your assumption that as a group, MENSA
members
>are intellectual snobs -- this is part of the reason I never joined.
But
>since I never attended a meeting, this is almost totally baseless
>prejudice on my part, and tells you a lot more about me than it does
>about MENSA... :/ )
I attended a couple of MENSA meetings a long time ago, and didn't find
them to be snobbish so much as pompous and dull. The conversations in
the science fiction club were much better. So I never bothered to join,
even though I'm qualified.
Celine
Jim Pierce
Jeanne wrote:
[] never quite been accepted anywhere...I never did learn to hide
[] that men don't like intelligent women much, and women like them
[] even less.
Really ? Hmm. Long ago, in elementary school a woman smarter than
me would have caused me a problem... but not in a long time. Oh, we
might not be able to talk about the same things, I have a hard time
understanding Calculus for example.
But as long as she didn't use her high IQ to make fun of me, I
wouldn't make fun of her for having a high IQ. I'm smarter than
that. What is more likely, is that I would stop talking to her if
she made fun of me.
I was told by my parents that folks who make fun of soeone because
they are smarter, are jealous of the smart person.
I have been made fun of because I read so much...
DJ.
--
Jim
Book: C. J. Cherryh 'Pride of Chanur'
Lee S. Billings
>I never did learn to hide my IQ very
>well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't
like
Jim Pierce
Jeanne Burton <jea...@toltbbs.com> wrote:
[] SOME (note I said some, please??) men never have gotten out of the
[] "elementary school" mindset, evidently.
Wasn't giving you a hard time about it. I was saying I understand.
Heck, I have gotten made fun of when I was under 5 feet tall in 7th
grade, and later after I grew above 6 feet tall in 9th grade, I was
made fun of for that.
[] And unfortunately, a lot of the time, smart women who don't pretend to
[] "dumb down" get made fun of...by a lot of people. I know people tend to
[] mistrust what they don't understand, but jeez...it does get ridiculous.
I know several women who act a great deal dumber than they
actually are... that nauseats me.
[] > I was told by my parents that folks who make fun of soeone because
[] > they are smarter, are jealous of the smart person.
[] That doesn't make it easier to take.
No, it doesn't make it easier... sometimes late at night when
I'm alone, it does help.
Heck, I get made fun of because people think that I'm a genius,
and they say so. I'm not a genius, I'm just average... really.
I think I give that impression merely because I read so much.
And I'm willing to express an opinion. Another mark against me.
[] > I have been made fun of because I read so much...
[] shutting him out, or ignoring him. I saw it as barely less
[] important than breathing. Sucked. A lot.
Ouch !
I can just imagine how short a relationship I would have with a
woman who tried to tell me to not read so much... Not only do I try
to keep up with the computer field, but I am an amateur historian.
Both require lots of reading.
One of the guys I hung around with in high school, he and I would
sometimes sit and read comics for hours. We got to where we set my
alarm clock to let us know it was time to drive over to the drive-in
and get something to eat before going to the movies. Otherwise we
wouldn't get to the show.
Gary Rumain
In alt.callahans Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
: Ummm....South African Playboy ...if I ever saw it...didn't feature this!
: If you'd like to download a few spreads for my research...
Oh, I don't *have* it - I only know it exists! Rather like, oh, the BBC
wardrobe department (sigh).
: >
: > Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
: Quite right, you picked up on someone else's comment in the thread, but I'm
: more inclined to comment on the length of my willy (it's enormous) than the
: height of my IQ:-}
Can't be that long - you said earlier you only used one hand.
Susan "somebody had to say it" Cohen
R. Wald
In article <3436A2...@pacbell.net>,
The Polymath <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. ...
>
>It depends on which test you're using. Most people don't realize this,
>but they all use different scales. That's why Mensa specifies the 98th
>%ile, rather than a specific IQ. The scale that seems to best fit the
>public perception of IQ is probably the Weschler. It has a mean of 100
>and a standard deviation of 15. On that scale, 160 would be genius.
>Mensa membership starts at 130 (other sample test scores available at
>the GLAAM Web site: http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa ).
"Um, for what definition of 'genius?'" Rivka asks. "A Wechsler IQ of 160
would put you four standard deviations above the mean, which works out to
- okay, my classmates I'm conferring with aren't even sure. We think it's
got to be less than the top 0.1 percent. The WAIS (Wechsler Adult
Intelligence Scale) doesn't even go that high - anything above 145 is just
reported as 'above 145.'
"There aren't really any good tests that discriminate well at the upper
regions of IQ. A definition of 'genius' that requires a stratospheric IQ
score isn't all that meaningful, in my personal opinion. A high IQ, sure;
I'm not rejecting the whole concept of IQ altogether - far from it. But I
have little confidence in the ability of psychological tests to
distinguish a so-called 'IQ 160' from a 150, or a 175, or any other
ridiculously high number. I therefore have little confidence in programs
or definitions based on IQs at this level.
"(Note to Patrons who know their own IQs: there are some tests that
produce higher IQ numbers than the Wechsler... the Ravens Progressive
Matrices test, a British pattern recognition-based IQ test, is the most
commonly used example. Lots of people score at 140 or above.)"
As Rivka steps down carefully from the soapbox that's appeared under her
feet, her standard disclaimer begins to march across the air in front of
her:
"Rivka is not a licensed psychologist. She does administer, score, and
interpret IQ tests for a living. Frankly, though, it's not much of a
living."
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Rebecca L. Wald | I did not design this game, I did not name the stakes
graduate student | I just happen to like apples & I'm not afraid of snakes
U Iowa Psych Dept| - Ani DiFranco
The Polymath
Lee S. Billings wrote:
>Obviously not all men are like that, since you now have a SO who values
>you for the person you are. My experience has been that emotionally
>mature men of any age are more likely to be attracted to a highly
>intelligent woman than threatened by her. Now, admittedly, emotionally
>mature men often seem to be in the minority <g>, but the point stands.
Now, this is a good reason to join Mensa, if ever I heard one. Women in
Mensa are _assumed_ to be intelligent, so there's no point in trying to
hide it. In fact, the only real, general snobbery I've found in Mensa
is the attitude towards the few female members who still insist on
pretending to be bimbos (and the few pathetic males who are attracted to
them).
Last I heard, the male:female membership ratio was still about 2:1. So,
ladies, the odds are good (but the goods are sometimes odd).
The Polymath
>:>Personally, I take the Groucho Marx view on clubs such as this - ie
>:>wouldn't join if they would accept me as a member. ...
People continue to misinterpret that remark. Groucho made it when he
was asked to join the Los Angeles Country Club -- a club that denied
membership to Jews. It was his way of condemning their anti-semitism,
while pointing out that he was Jewish.
>Well, if you really wanna tock 'em off, ask them how smart they think the
>average Playboy Bunny is, then remind them of the "Women of Mensa" spread.
Why would that "tock" us off? We're all quite proud of, and cheerfully
amused by, that event in our history. That issue of Playboy is a
collector's item among the membership.
>Now, if a woman wants to do that sort of thing, fine. But if she's doing
>it for a special reason, she ought to think about it a little harder than
>these women did. Their purpose was to prove that smart eomen are also
>beautiful (i.e., against the stereotype). But, IMHO, all they did was
>prove that no matter how intelligent or accomplished a woman is, she
>still has to be a sex object to prove her worth.
Ahem. There was also a "Men of Mensa" spread in Playgirl. I applied to
be in it. (I was at least 10 years younger and in considerably better
physical condition.) They turned me down. Two months later, Playgirl
went bankrupt. :-) Shows what they knew. (-: Do you seriously think I
was trying to be a sex object to prove my worth? (As it happened, I
worked across the street from the Playgirl home office, so, I figured,
"What the hell ...")
More seriously, not one of the women in the Playboy spread had to be
there. Most were already in highly paid professional positions, so they
certainly didn't need the money or to otherwise prove their "worth." It
was all done for fun and amusement and to generate publicity for Mensa,
which it did very well. _We_ had fun with it, anyway. I guess some
people just have to find things to complain about.
> Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. ...
It depends on which test you're using. Most people don't realize this,
but they all use different scales. That's why Mensa specifies the 98th
%ile, rather than a specific IQ. The scale that seems to best fit the
public perception of IQ is probably the Weschler. It has a mean of 100
and a standard deviation of 15. On that scale, 160 would be genius.
Mensa membership starts at 130 (other sample test scores available at
the GLAAM Web site: http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa ).
John Palmer
On 4 Oct 1997 00:08:44 GMT, Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net (Jim
Pierce) wrote:
>Jeanne Burton <jea...@toltbbs.com> wrote:
>[] And unfortunately, a lot of the time, smart women who don't pretend to
>[] "dumb down" get made fun of...by a lot of people. I know people tend to
>[] mistrust what they don't understand, but jeez...it does get ridiculous.
>
> I know several women who act a great deal dumber than they
>actually are... that nauseats me.
Hmmm. You might want to clarify what you mean: whether their
perceived need to do that nauseates you, or whether doing it does.
(either one is defensible, to a degree . . .)
>[] > I was told by my parents that folks who make fun of soeone because
>[] > they are smarter, are jealous of the smart person.
>
Herm. that's not exactly true, though. People make fun of
others for a variety of reasons, and the biggest one is that it's fun;
it gives a sense of power and superiority. *ANYONE* who's different
can be picked on, and it's the confidence that you'll "get away with
it" that makes it so easy.
(And now some folks might have an idea of why picking on polite
Jehovah's Witnesses ticks me off.)
>[] That doesn't make it easier to take.
>
> No, it doesn't make it easier... sometimes late at night when
>I'm alone, it does help.
Always remember: the best revenge is living well. That, and the
fact that it's usually impersonal. . . if it wasn't you, it'd be
someone else. There's no reason; there's no insult directed at *YOU*.
It's all directed at an image that doesn't really exist that "they"
are claiming is centered on you.
But that doesn't take out the final bit of hurt: that someone
would do that, knowing that it's hurtful, just hoping to hurt you.
--
"Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in
kidnergarten. Like, always check for extraneous roots
when squaring to remove the radicals."
Jeanne Burton
Kenny & Michelle Johnson <kajo...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.97100...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>...
> On 3 Oct 1997, Lee S. Billings wrote:
>
> > In article <01bccf7a$ef0d0960$7623...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>,
> > jea...@toltbbs.com says...
> >
> > >I never did learn to hide my IQ very
> > >well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't
> > like
> > >intelligent women much, and women like them even less. This is not
> > only my
> > >observation. As I've grown older, I've found people like me, and
> > embraced
> > >them wholeheartedly. My best friend is very similar to me in
> > personality,
> > >IQ, etc, and her experiences both in college and beyond have been very
> > >similar to mine, as well...
> >
> > Obviously not all men are like that, since you now have a SO who values
> > you for the person you are. My experience has been that emotionally
> > mature men of any age are more likely to be attracted to a highly
> > intelligent woman than threatened by her. Now, admittedly, emotionally
> > mature men often seem to be in the minority <g>, but the point stands.
> >
> ken-e cautiously looks around the room, really hoping not to offend
> anyone. "Maybe this makes me emotionally immature, but I am more
> attracted to are <be careful, this could get ugly> a little lower on the
> IQ scale. I'm not intimidated by smart women. I had a number of study
> partners in college who were a lot smarter than me. We got to be good
> friends. But I'm attracted to those less smart.
I'm not offended. I expected it, and I appreciate your honesty. Your
attitude is certainly not uncommon, in my less than humble opinion :>
>
> BTW, Michelle, my Lifetime Partner In All Things (tm) has the terriffic
> quality of seeming naive, while actually being quite a brain.
>
Exactly my point. SHE learned how to play the game, and is/was willing to
play it. I'm not. Therefore I get told I'm "intimidating", among other,
less savory terms. I still refuse to play it. And thanks to the
Goddess...I don't have to. There are men out there who will appreciate me
for who and what I am, and I think I've got the best one of all in my
living room at the moment.
Hugs,
Jeanne
The Polymath
Lee S. Billings wrote:
>I attended a couple of MENSA meetings a long time ago, and didn't find
>them to be snobbish so much as pompous and dull. The conversations in
>the science fiction club were much better. So I never bothered to join,
>even though I'm qualified.
Sorry you attended the wrong meetings. It took me about six months of
experimenting to figure out which Mensa events were worth attending in
the L.A. area. Apart from the new members reception, where I spent the
evening discussing the British vs. U.S. legal systems with a lady with a
Ph.D. in law, my first great success was the Fantasy Gaming SIG. It was
my introduction to AD&D and I played in that campaign for over 7 years.
A while after I started that, I found myself the coordinator of the
local Nudist SIG. That had the advantage of obligating me to relax and
take it easy once a month.
Now I run the local firearms SIG (GLAAM Plinkers) and I'm the Webmaster
for GLAAM ( http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa -- Thanks Alaric! ). I'm
too busy to do much else, though I get to a Happy Hour meeting once a
month and generally attend two Regional Gatherings (RGs) a year. The
RGs are the best part, IMHO, but two a year is all I can afford and find
time for.
Claire Black
Jeanne Burton (jea...@toltbbs.com) wrote:
: Jim Pierce <Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net> wrote in article
: <611sjd$f...@examiner.concentric.net>...
: > Jeanne wrote:
: > [] never quite been accepted anywhere...I never did learn to hide
: > [] that men don't like intelligent women much, and women like them
: > [] even less.
: > Really ? Hmm. Long ago, in elementary school a woman smarter than
: > me would have caused me a problem... but not in a long time. Oh, we
: > might not be able to talk about the same things, I have a hard time
: > understanding Calculus for example.
: SOME (note I said some, please??) men never have gotten out of the
: "elementary school" mindset, evidently.
Weredonut laughs in agreement "There was one of those in my High School
- he was a "golden boy" several years younger than his siblings and
could do no wrong (played on a basketball team with the teachers at
school and the principal's son).
He HATED me because I would beat him at some subjects - it was OK for
me to get better marks in English and Biology, because they are girly
subjects (his words, not mine) and he usually beat me at Math (I
really struggle with Math - cannot integrate to save my life :), but
Chemistry was the fun thing - I constantly beat him in Chemistry,
by 15 - 20 % (he would be 2nd in the class), and he was livid :)
I loved it - Chemistry was effortless to me - I'd do no homework
(something the teacher tolerated as he knew I picked up more in class
than others did in class and homework) mainly to piss this guy off.
It was cruel of me, but fun. He used to accuse me of being butch,
of being a lesbian, of having balls, of being a guy (all at once -
that'd take some talent). He told all of his friends never to
ask me out.
What an overreaction - he was so funny - he hated it so much when
I'd laugh at him, but what else could I do???"
Weredonut turns back to her mineral water "There are probably a
million stories like this - but it still makes me chuckle now"
Buffi1st
In article <6141ec$d...@examiner.concentric.net>,
Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net (Jim Pierce) writes:
>
> I can just imagine how short a relationship I would have with a
>woman who tried to tell me to not read so much...
DJ, I'd be standing next to you at the book store cheering you on. If more
people read more, expanding their minds and their attitudes, the world
would be a happier place with more interesting conversations in it!
Buffi
Jim Pierce
Folks, I'm answering John's questions. All of the below is in the
past. No need to offer sympathy.
DJ:
[] > I know several women who act a great deal dumber than they
[] >actually are... that nauseats me.
John Palmer <jpal...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[] Hmmm. You might want to clarify what you mean: whether their
[] perceived need to do that nauseates you, or whether doing it does.
[] (either one is defensible, to a degree . . .)
John, I'll try.
I know several women who could be just about anything they wanted
to be. They are highly intelligent. They have chosen to be dumb,
outwardly. I have had conversations with one or two of them, and
recognized that they were more intelligent than they portrayed
themselves.
_Probably_ they choose this path as they don't then have to be
subjected to abuse, problems at work, etc.
The other woman I now, has a degree, but she portrays herself as
having 'barely passed high school'. I was talking to her one day,
and she said several things that made my jaw drop. She probably
has an IQ high enough to join Mensa.
Thats what I mean by nauseate me... their lives, as far as i can
tell, are stunted because they chose to act dumb.
Could I be wrong about their intelligence ? I don't believe so.
[] Herm. that's not exactly true, though. People make fun of
[] others for a variety of reasons, and the biggest one is that it's fun;
[] it gives a sense of power and superiority. *ANYONE* who's different
[] can be picked on, and it's the confidence that you'll "get away with
[] it" that makes it so easy.
Yeah, that to.
But I encountered several people in high school who stated that
they hated me because I had better grades than them... One of the
times i was told that, I had a 'C' average. The guy came drunk to
class, and thought no one noticed.
I made in A in the English comp class we were i together, he
wanted me to 'stop tryinng so hard' as it was making him look bad.
But the majority that heckled me, appeared to do so because they
didn't like me being intelligent.
I read books not required by class assignment... that bothered
folks too.
[] (And now some folks might have an idea of why picking on polite
[] Jehovah's Witnesses ticks me off.)
[] Always remember: the best revenge is living well. That, and the
Yeah. I have outlived some of them.
Last time I was back home, five of them apologized to me for the
things they said and did. That was in one of the schools. I haven't
been in the other locations as I have no need to go there.
Would more of them apologize ? Hmmm. Some of them might, but I
doubt if the rest would.
[] fact that it's usually impersonal. . . if it wasn't you, it'd be
[] someone else. There's no reason; there's no insult directed at *YOU*.
I see what you mean, but some of the places I went to school,
there were a few who were picked on daily. I was one of them.
Some sort of 'here is the list of other students who we al have fun
laughing at'.
Well, hmmm. That seems a little paranoid, but it isn't. I was
left handed, read lots of books, and I wore eyeglasses. I was shy,
etc. I, and a few others, fit all of the reasons to heckle someone.
At another school, I felt I wasn't one of the 'white bread' guys,
more of a semi-rebel. But the rebels wanted nothing to do with me.
So, both groups felt I was an easy mark.
[] It's all directed at an image that doesn't really exist that "they"
[] are claiming is centered on you.
[] But that doesn't take out the final bit of hurt: that someone
[] would do that, knowing that it's hurtful, just hoping to hurt you.
Yup.
But f*ck'em.
DJ.
--
Jim Pierce B.Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Jim Pierce wrote:
<description snipped, of being teased in school for being smart>
> Last time I was back home, five of them apologized to me for the
> things they said and did. That was in one of the schools. I haven't
> been in the other locations as I have no need to go there.
Ouch. You've reminded me: I owe an apology to my high-school science
teacher, next time I'm through Orange County.
His class was right after lunch. My seat was in the back, against the
wall -- this combination led me to doze off occasionally, either leaning
against the wall or putting my head down on my desk.
He, of course, preferred that I stay awake in his class -- so one day he
woke me up by asking for the answer to the formula on the board. I
lifted my head ...looked at the board ...gave him the correct answer
...put my head back down.
And I've gone and missed my ten-year reunion. I'll have to catch him
another year.
(For some reason, that reminds me of *another* story, about the time in
seventh grade I told a teacher a dirty joke that I didn't realize was
dirty. Neither did he, apparently, because he turned around and told it
to the class. Maybe I should apologize to him too :/ )
Regards,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Gesi Rovario wrote:
>
> I do believe I heard Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
> <Snip>
> >(For some reason, that reminds me of *another* story, about the time in
> >seventh grade I told a teacher a dirty joke that I didn't realize was
> >dirty. Neither did he, apparently, because he turned around and told it
> >to the class. Maybe I should apologize to him too :/ )
>
> embarass the hell out of him. I mean, you have no way of knowing if
> he *ever* realised the joke was dirty.:)
He and I both realized it at the same time, when the class burst into
shocked laughter. He didn't send me to the principal's office or
anything (how could he?) ...but our relationship was a bit chilly from
that point on.
> I've got a teacher I should probably apologize to, though I didn't
> mean for my comment to come out quite as bitchy as it did.
>
> I was in the seventh grade and I had heard that we had to pay
> attention in school because we were going to use everything we learned
> once we graduated.<HA!>
>
> So, my gym teacher had us bouncing those big red dodge balls off the
> walls, and I was tired of it. When he walked by, I asked him, "How is
> this going to help me in my life?" He was not thrilled by the
> question. I had to run laps for the rest of the period. Now that I
> think of it, I don't think I *will* apologize to him. ;^)
He shoulda told you, "It'll improve your hand-eye coordination" ...but
apparently the correct answer was, "It'll keep you out of my hair, such
of it as remains. And it'll keep you out of trouble, becuase your 7th
grade Permanent Record will follow you around for the rest of your
life..." Not.
Regards,
Erick.
Glenn Lyford
In article <6177hl$2...@examiner.concentric.net>,
Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net is rumored to have said:
[snip]
> I read books not required by class assignment... that bothered
>folks too.
['nother snip]
Let me guess-- small town?
Grew up in one of them. At one point very early in my education,
we were each asked to go up and write a sentence on the board. My
sentences then were much like they are now, complex things full of
phrases that add to and clarify shades of meaning.
One of my classmates said "Don't you dare take mine!" as I went up.
I wrote out one of my usuals.
On his turn, he wrote: "It is." That's it. He was immensely proud
that he had found the shortest sentence he could think of. (But he
missed "I am." Go figure.)
I went to a regional high school, and a state university. At each
higher level of education and jump in institution size, the number
of "hey don't be so smart, you're making me look bad" types dropped
by an order of mangnitude.
So hey, don't let it get to you, as you move on, you'll find more
and more people who you can relate to intellectually as well as
otherwise....
--Glenn
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On 5 Oct 1997 05:11:17 GMT, Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net (Jim
Pierce) wrote:
> The other woman I now, has a degree, but she portrays herself as
>having 'barely passed high school'. I was talking to her one day,
>and she said several things that made my jaw drop. She probably
>has an IQ high enough to join Mensa.
Noel grins wryly. "I *did* 'barely pass throught high school'. I
have enough writing examples on the Net for you to form your own
opinion of my intelligence. Academic acchievement is not, *not* an
accurate measurement of intelligence."
> But the majority that heckled me, appeared to do so because they
>didn't like me being intelligent.
"I was picked on in school, too. But I was not picked on for being
intelligent. I was picked on for being arrogant about it," Noel's
lips spread in a toothy grin. "Not that I have any intentions of
changing that....."
>
> I read books not required by class assignment... that bothered
>folks too.
"Interesting.... You know, reading for pleasure was not considered odd
in my high school. Extra reading on a class subject which interested
you brought no notice that I can recall, either."
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
"The best solution to oppressive and bigotted behavior is rarely
to respond exactly the same way to the "group" seen as doing it."
KAZ Vorpal
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH; to reply, change void to kf8nh
In <01bcd02e$401f5700$6923...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>, on 10/03/97 at 07,
"Jeanne Burton" <jea...@toltbbs.com> said:
+-----
| And unfortunately, a lot of the time, smart women who don't pretend to "dumb
| down" get made fun of...by a lot of people. I know people tend to mistrust
| what they don't understand, but jeez...it does get ridiculous.
Sigh... my sister learned to "dumb down" early... she watched how her brother
got treated. :-( While I don't appeciate women who "dumb down" much, I
remember that there are reasons for it.
WareWolf96
<snip of many stories of being abused in high school on account of
intelligence>
My survival mechanism in this regard was humor It was a way to use
intelligence that was accepted as long as it was directed towards the faculty
and staff , which I was always willing to do. As long as I was goofing on the
teachers, I was OK. Not befriended, necessarily, but given some measure of
grudging respect. Marked me for life, it did. I'm STILL the class clown.
Dusty
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <343785...@pop3.concentric.net>,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
}(For some reason, that reminds me of *another* story, about the time in
}seventh grade I told a teacher a dirty joke that I didn't realize was
}dirty. Neither did he, apparently, because he turned around and told it
}to the class. Maybe I should apologize to him too :/ )
Apologize? He owes you for a good double-entendre and a great story
to go with it!
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <343779e4.16827885@news-server>,
Gesi Rovario <grov...@san.rr.com> wrote:
}I was in the seventh grade and I had heard that we had to pay
}attention in school because we were going to use everything we learned
}once we graduated.<HA!>
I remember the threats in seventh and eighth grades that we'd better
start behaving because everything from ninth grade on went on our
Permanent Record (you could hear the capitals). I think the threat
basically backfired, as even without training in formal logic, most
troublemakers immediately realized that this most likely meant that
everything BEFORE then was unimportant.
}So, my gym teacher had us bouncing those big red dodge balls off the
}walls, and I was tired of it. When he walked by, I asked him, "How is
}this going to help me in my life?" He was not thrilled by the
}question. I had to run laps for the rest of the period. Now that I
}think of it, I don't think I *will* apologize to him. ;^)
}
}Gesi
*sigh*. They tell stupid and obvious lies, and then wonder why they
get cynical children prone to making sarcastic remarks. Oh well, as
with advertising, it probably works with most of the people most of
the time.
Jim Pierce
Buffi wrote:
[] DJ, I'd be standing next to you at the book store cheering you
[] attitudes, the world would be a happier place with more
[] interesting conversations in it!
Thanks.
However, I have met a number of people over the years who state
things that fly in the face of alll of their education...
One example: recently I was talking to someone, the conversation
got onto snakes. And the person, who I thought was intelligent, said
to me that he hated the way snakes can stick their fangs out at you.
Turned out he was talking about the snake's tongue.
Another example: We don't get tornadoes in Memphis, because we
live on these hiigh bluffs. My information, from the Weather
Channel, is that it makes no difference on terrain, its local
weather conditions. Neither does living in a valley protect from
tornadoes...
DJ.
--
Dreamy Jim aka Jim Pierce Bach. of Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
Video: Grace Jones 'Slave to the Rhythm'
Jim Pierce
Noel:
[] opinion of my intelligence. Academic acchievement is not, *not* an
[] accurate measurement of intelligence."
I know... I have seen folks years later I knew in high school.
Their major achievements in high school turned out to be their
life's major achievements... That probably isn't true of everyone
tho.
[] "I was picked on in school, too. But I was not picked on for being
[] intelligent. I was picked on for being arrogant about it," Noel's
[] lips spread in a toothy grin. "Not that I have any intentions of
[] changing that....."
[toothy grin] I get told that I'm arrogant, because I read alot.
I get told I'm arrogant, and put myself 'above others' because I
watch science programs on cable tv and can converse on many topics.
I reply that no one is prevented by law from reading alot or
watching those same programs. Therefore, they are just making excuses.
I think its the old 'Crab Bucket Syndrome'. i.e. you don't need to
put a lid or top on a bucket of crabs. When one tries to escape, one
of the other crabs will reach up and yank that crab back into the
bucket. I have seen it happen, and also with people as well.
[] "Interesting.... You know, reading for pleasure was not considered odd
[] in my high school. Extra reading on a class subject which interested
[] you brought no notice that I can recall, either."
It was considered very odd by many of the townsfolk.
Not all, but many.
I remember one guy I knew reading 'Pebbles in the Sky'. I,
jokingly, asked him what it was about. He told me, I was 12 at the
time, that I was too young to read that sort of thing. I had read it
years before after checking it out from the public library. Oh, he
was about 14 or 15.
I found out years later that the town library had called my mother
and asked her if it was okay for me to read, at age 6, science
fiction. Ah Human Stupidity...
DJ.
--
Jim Pierce B.Sc. jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu
"What are they up to now ?" Melody; from 'Music of the Spheres'
The Polymath
>>> Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. ...
>>
>>It depends on which test you're using. Most people don't realize this,
>>but they all use different scales. That's why Mensa specifies the 98th
>>%ile, rather than a specific IQ. The scale that seems to best fit the
>>public perception of IQ is probably the Weschler. It has a mean of 100
>>and a standard deviation of 15. On that scale, 160 would be genius.
>>Mensa membership starts at 130 (other sample test scores available at
>>the GLAAM Web site: http://www.babcom.com/gla-mensa ).
>
>"Um, for what definition of 'genius?'" Rivka asks. "A Wechsler IQ of 160
>would put you four standard deviations above the mean, which works out to
>- okay, my classmates I'm conferring with aren't even sure. We think it's
>got to be less than the top 0.1 percent. ...
The Polymath takes a book from the shelves full left over from his
graduate psych days and refers to a table in the appendix.
"It says here that 4 standard deviations puts you at the 99.997th
percentile. For better or worse, that is the only definition of genius
I'm aware of that's stated in terms of IQ score. There are other
definitions, of course, but if you want to go by IQ it's 4 sd. 1 sd is
considered the top end of the normal range. I forget whether it's 2 or
3 sd that is considered gifted. The qualification for Mensa is slightly
over 2 sd."
"Some people, when they learn I'm in Mensa, ask, 'So, what's it like,
being a genius?' I always reply, 'I wouldn't know, but I know what it's
like to be smart enough to understand what real genius is -- and to know
you're not one.'"
>"Rivka is not a licensed psychologist. She does administer, score, and
>interpret IQ tests for a living. Frankly, though, it's not much of a
>living."
One of the reasons I got out of the pshrink business and into
computers. Short of a doctorate, it pays a whole lot better. (The main
reason was a four year internship at the Suicide Prevention Center.
After that, I just didn't want to talk to crazy people anymore.) I'm
not licensed either, nor do I pretend to be on TV. (-:
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
I've got a question for anyone here who's ever had a membership in
MENSA. Have you ever had a comment made on it during a job interview?
Thanks,
Erick
Gesi Rovario
I do believe I heard Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
<Snip>
>seventh grade I told a teacher a dirty joke that I didn't realize was
>dirty. Neither did he, apparently, because he turned around and told it
>to the class. Maybe I should apologize to him too :/ )
>
>
>Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
No, if you apologize to your seventh grade teacher, you'll probably
embarass the hell out of him. I mean, you have no way of knowing if
he *ever* realised the joke was dirty.:)
I've got a teacher I should probably apologize to, though I didn't
mean for my comment to come out quite as bitchy as it did.
I was in the seventh grade and I had heard that we had to pay
attention in school because we were going to use everything we learned
once we graduated.<HA!>
So, my gym teacher had us bouncing those big red dodge balls off the
walls, and I was tired of it. When he walked by, I asked him, "How is
this going to help me in my life?" He was not thrilled by the
question. I had to run laps for the rest of the period. Now that I
think of it, I don't think I *will* apologize to him. ;^)
Gesi
No matter by which culture a woman is influenced, she
understands the words "wild" and "woman" intuitively.
-Clarissa Pinkola Estes
R. Wald
>Gesi Rovario wrote:
>> So, my gym teacher had us bouncing those big red dodge balls off the
>> walls, and I was tired of it. When he walked by, I asked him, "How is
>> this going to help me in my life?" He was not thrilled by the
>> question. I had to run laps for the rest of the period. Now that I
>> think of it, I don't think I *will* apologize to him. ;^)
>
grimly. "I'd just want to hike up my skirt, show her the road map of
surgical scars covering my hip, and say, 'Remember how you thought I was
faking my disability? Remember all the shit you gave me over that?'
"The cool thing is, I don't have to. Because my mother, the world's most
tactful and mild-mannered person, has been doing something very similar to
this for the last seven years since I graduated from high school. Every
time she ran into Mrs. Preucil at church or something: 'How's your
family?' 'Oh, they're all fine - Rebecca's using crutches now; she's
having surgery next month.'
"I'm not sure it really sank in, though. Last year, when my little sister
had meningitis and couldn't take gym for a *long* time, she got hassled
the same way by the same idiotic woman."
Lee S. Billings
In article <01bcd067$f94ccc60$6923...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>,
jea...@toltbbs.com says...
>Exactly my point. SHE learned how to play the game, and is/was
willing to
>play it. I'm not. Therefore I get told I'm "intimidating", among
other,
>less savory terms. I still refuse to play it. And thanks to the
>Goddess...I don't have to. There are men out there who will
appreciate me
>for who and what I am, and I think I've got the best one of all in my
>living room at the moment.
>
>Hugs,
>Jeanne
Response to "You're intimidating": <sweet smile> "That's the only way I
can be sure of finding an intelligent man." If he doesn't get the
implication the first time, I can go on and say, "A really smart guy
has enough self-confidence not to be intimidated by a smart woman."
Frankly, if they can't deal with my brains, I'd rather find it out up
front than after wasting a couple of years on them.
Celine
Rick Baldwin
I agree wholeheartedly. The last thing I would ever want is a stupid
woman to share my life with. You know the type, all looks, no brains.
Give me a woman with an above average IQ, who knows how to talk, have a
good time and understands basic particle physics anyday.
Cheers!
The Polymath
R. Wald wrote:
>In article <34380C...@pacbell.net>, The Polymath <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>R. Wald wrote:
>>"It says here that 4 standard deviations puts you at the 99.997th
>>percentile. For better or worse, that is the only definition of genius
>>I'm aware of that's stated in terms of IQ score. There are other
>>definitions, of course, but if you want to go by IQ it's 4 sd. 1 sd is
>>considered the top end of the normal range. I forget whether it's 2 or
>>3 sd that is considered gifted. The qualification for Mensa is slightly
>>over 2 sd."
>
>"I'm not meaning to perseverate here... but I still don't understand whose
>definition of genius this is. What source are you using that puts the
>cutoff at 4 SD? And when you say 'considered gifted,' by whom do you
>mean?"
Probably Binet, but, off the top of my head, I can't say for certain.
These are figures that stuck in my head in the course of getting my
master's in clinical psych, but I don't remember which course or book
they came out of. I graduated 17 years ago and they were obsolete
then. The terms 'normal,' 'bright,' 'gifted,' and 'genius' are the
positive mirrors of 'moron,' 'idiot,' and 'imbecile' ('normal' straddles
the mean). I don't think anyone in the psychological professions
actually uses these terms anymore, but they remain part of the popular
culture.
Don Paul
Gary Rumain <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
<614tsm$h2n$1...@news.smart.net>...
> In alt.callahans Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>
> Can't be that long - you said earlier you only used one hand.
Have you seen my hands?
Imagine for a moment, the outfielder's mitt....You're getting close!
--
Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa
Table Mountain is in for repairs
Leslie
In alt.callahans, The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) said:
+>"Some people, when they learn I'm in Mensa, ask, 'So, what's it like,
+>being a genius?' I always reply, 'I wouldn't know, but I know what it's
+>like to be smart enough to understand what real genius is -- and to know
+>you're not one.'"
Leslie nods in understanding. "That sums up how I think, too. AFAIK, I
qualify for Mensa, but I'm no genius. But, `where a bright leads, a tween
can follow....'"
Leslie. (Quote from the _Children of Tomorrow_ anthology.)
--
* Spider Robinson info & alt.callahans FAQs: <http://www.vex.net/~leslie> *
** "Why _admit_ it?" "Because it's _true_. Because we're here to **
** get telepathic, and we can't have telepathy based on bullshit." **
*** "If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane." -- J. Buffett ***
Rebecca L Schoenberg
WareWolf96 (warew...@aol.com) wrote:
: <snip of many stories of being abused in high school on account of
: intelligence>
Banshee thinks back (reluctantly) to her high school years. "My survival
mechanisms were named Rob and Geoff. Two big, tall, broad-shouldered guys
a couple of yers older than me, who dressed in trenchcoats and dark sunglasses
and practiced tae kwon do on the football field during lunch period. I met
them the summer before I started my freshman year, and people quickly learned
I was under their protection...."
-banshee, who likes having big, strong friends
Lee S. Billings
In article <01bcd22b$93385320$91c809c0@om>, d...@gw.omctn.inca.za
says...
>
>
>
>Gary Rumain <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
><614tsm$h2n$1...@news.smart.net>...
>> In alt.callahans Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>>
>> Can't be that long - you said earlier you only used one hand.
>
>Have you seen my hands?
>
>Imagine for a moment, the outfielder's mitt....You're getting close!
I'm not old enough for this conversation! ;-)
Celine
The Polymath
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia wrote:
>I've got a question for anyone here who's ever had a membership in
>MENSA. Have you ever had a comment made on it during a job interview?
Ah, the eternal question: Should I put Mensa on my resume? You will
hear arguments for both sides, no doubt. My solution: I put it at the
very end in a list of memberships, misc. skills, hobbies and other odds
and bits that _might_ tip an otherwise perfectly balanced decision.
Don't recall that anyone's ever mentioned it. However, I met the person
who hired me at Citicorp through Mensa. I stayed long enough to become
her boss, then she left for pastures new. (Nothing to do with our role
reversal. She volunteered to be layed off during a major downsizing in
exchange for a golden handshake. We remain good friends.)
Andy May
In article <EHnox...@world.std.com>
si...@world.std.com "Rebecca L Schoenberg" writes:
> Banshee thinks back (reluctantly) to her high school years. "My survival
> mechanisms were named Rob and Geoff. Two big, tall, broad-shouldered guys
> a couple of yers older than me, who dressed in trenchcoats and dark sunglasses
> and practiced tae kwon do on the football field during lunch period. I met
> them the summer before I started my freshman year, and people quickly learned
> I was under their protection...."
>
> -banshee, who likes having big, strong friends
"and hopefully, small wimpy ones as well <grin>"
[journeyman]
--
***** Andy May - journeyman, traveler, friend to kittens ******
*** http://www.argus.demon.co.uk andy at argus.demon.co.uk ***
William Bruce
"Don Paul" <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>
>
>Gary Rumain <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article
><611ufc$4jm$7...@news.smart.net>...
>> In alt.callahans Jean Hoehn <pjh...@mail.vbemail.net> wrote:
>> : Don Paul wrote:
>> : > Any thoughts?
>>
>> Polite ones, you mean?
>
>Don't be silly! Polite never got a laugh!
>>
>
>>
>> Well, if you really wanna tock 'em off, ask them how smart they think the
>> average Playboy Bunny is, then remind them of the "Women of Mensa"
>spread.
>
>Ummm....South African Playboy ...if I ever saw it...didn't feature this!
>If you'd like to download a few spreads for my research...
>>
>> : I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
>> : IQ is about 40 points to low to get in.
>>
>> Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
Genius starts at about 150. Give or take a smidgen. Depending on
scale used and test methodology and how well tuned the old brain
muscle is that day. But all you gotta do is prove to them you are in
the top 2% of the brain elite in the entire english speaking world.
They accept most standard tests that have a good cross-section of
cognitive eruditeness (I always wanted to work that one into a
sentence). Lessee, things like GMAT, SAT and ACT are accepted. They
keep pretty good track of things too. Like if somebody dumbs down a
test, they will then change their requirements for that test or even
disallow it in the future.
BTW, is this even on thread. Dunno as I am browsing for first time
here today.
>
>Quite right, you picked up on someone else's comment in the thread, but I'm
>more inclined to comment on the length of my willy (it's enormous) than the
>height of my IQ:-}
William Bruce
dim...@visi.com
"Bill just cog in wheel of life" Mongo
Cogito ergo spud. I think, therefore I yam
William Bruce
Rick Baldwin <yu14...@yorku.nospam.com> wrote:
Pardon my interruption. But I just had to comment here. I didn't
know that particle physics had a 'basic' level. I thought it started
at mind-boggling and worked it way up to theoretical from there.
Heh
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
In article <618doc$f8c$1...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> rw...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu writes:
> "I'd love to go back and visit my high school gym teacher," Rivka says
> grimly. "I'd just want to hike up my skirt, show her the road map of
> surgical scars covering my hip, and say, 'Remember how you thought I was
> faking my disability? Remember all the shit you gave me over that?'
>
> "The cool thing is, I don't have to. Because my mother, the world's most
> tactful and mild-mannered person, has been doing something very similar to
> this for the last seven years since I graduated from high school. Every
> time she ran into Mrs. Preucil at church or something: 'How's your
> family?' 'Oh, they're all fine - Rebecca's using crutches now; she's
> having surgery next month.'
>
> "I'm not sure it really sank in, though. Last year, when my little sister
> had meningitis and couldn't take gym for a *long* time, she got hassled
> the same way by the same idiotic woman."
A teaching certificate does not guarantee competency.
---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --
"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
the state, unable to resist."
- Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_
R. Wald
In article <znr876315701k@Digex>,
Francis A. Ney, Jr. <cro...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
>In article <618doc$f8c$1...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> rw...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu writes:
>
>> "I'd love to go back and visit my high school gym teacher," Rivka says
>> grimly. "I'd just want to hike up my skirt, show her the road map of
>> surgical scars covering my hip, and say, 'Remember how you thought I was
>> faking my disability? Remember all the shit you gave me over that?'
>>
>> had meningitis and couldn't take gym for a *long* time, she got hassled
>> the same way by the same idiotic woman."
>
>A teaching certificate does not guarantee competency.
"Well, no. Of course not. But I think this goes a little further than lack
of teaching competence. I've noticed, over the years, that a certain type
of very healthy person is just *unable* to comprehend the idea that not
everyone shares that level of health... I've actually had intelligent
people (fellow grad students) say things like, 'well yeah, I know you're
on crutches because you have arthritis, but... you're in pain? Really?
Right now?'
"And don't even get me started on the rabid environmentalists at my
college: 'This is a walking campus. *Nobody* needs to drive to class.'"
SHolly2534
In article <343b2195...@news.visi.com>, dim...@visi.com (William
Bruce) writes:
>Pardon my interruption. But I just had to comment here. I didn't
>know that particle physics had a 'basic' level. I thought it started
>at mind-boggling and worked it way up to theoretical from there.
>
>Heh
>
>
>William Bruce
Wellllllll, you have to go through a lot of other stuff and then you study
particle physics.... so if you are physics deficient particle physics *is*
mind-boggling... but to those in the know, merely 'basic'. (get me beyond
bosons and mesons and I get lost... )
Holly
Are we having pun yet?
Gesi Rovario
I do believe I heard Ron Koolman <rkoo...@one.net> say:
>> Wellllllll, you have to go through a lot of other stuff and then you study
>> particle physics.... so if you are physics deficient particle physics *is*
>> mind-boggling... but to those in the know, merely 'basic'. (get me beyond
>> bosons and mesons and I get lost... )
>>
>> Holly
>> Are we having pun yet?
>
>duplicator based on a particle just discovered...boson the clone?
Oh! That one deserves a mountain of peanuts.
8
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888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
There. It should take you a while to dig out from under that!<G>
Oh, would you like a BOYC with those?:)
Gesi
Friends: People who know you well, and like you anyway.
Mike Bartman
On 4 Oct 1997 08:14:14 GMT, ze...@smart.net (Gary Rumain) wrote:
>In alt.callahans Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>: Ummm....South African Playboy ...if I ever saw it...didn't feature this!
>: If you'd like to download a few spreads for my research...
>
>Oh, I don't *have* it - I only know it exists! Rather like, oh, the BBC
>wardrobe department (sigh).
"I've got it somewhere....but I don't have a scanner or permission to
scan from Playboy Enterprises."
"Want to buy the whole collection?"
>: > Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
>
>: Quite right, you picked up on someone else's comment in the thread, but I'm
>: more inclined to comment on the length of my willy (it's enormous) than the
>: height of my IQ:-}
>
>Can't be that long - you said earlier you only used one hand.
"Maybe he has really long arms?"
>Susan "somebody had to say it" Cohen
--Berek "Well, not really, but we're glad you did anyway!" Halfaxe--
Mike Bartman
On 3 Oct 1997 05:05:48 GMT, ze...@smart.net (Gary Rumain) wrote:
>Well, if you really wanna tock 'em off, ask them how smart they think the
>average Playboy Bunny is, then remind them of the "Women of Mensa" spread.
Are you a *registered* member of the American Non-Sequitur Society, or
just a duffer?
>Now, if a woman wants to do that sort of thing, fine. But if she's doing
>it for a special reason, she ought to think about it a little harder than
>these women did. Their purpose was to prove that smart eomen are also
>beautiful (i.e., against the stereotype). But, IMHO, all they did was
>prove that no matter how intelligent or accomplished a woman is, she
>still has to be a sex object to prove her worth.
No, they just proved that beautiful smart women know easy money when
they see it.
>IDIOTS!
Does it *really* take one to know one? ;^)
>: I'm inclined to share your views on MENSA, and it's not just because my
>: IQ is about 40 points to low to get in.
>
>Wait a minute, I thought genius was 140. You don't SOUND like a 100...
Genius varies depending on who you ask. I've heard 132 in some cases.
In any event, being a genius has little or nothing to do with Mensa
qualification...you just have to score in the 98th percentile or above
on some standardized test of intelligence (or a number that aren't
explicitly used to test intelligence, such as SATs, but which have a
large enough population of takers to use for statistical purposes). I
qualified based on my SAT score (pre-1978 anything over 1300 made it
in, after that it's 1350 due to changes they made in the test).
Also, as Mensan's are fond of saying, "All membership does is prove
that you were smart enough at one time, not at all times."
As to all you sour-grapes enthusiasts, why don't you go attack the
varsity basketball team, the vererans of foreign wars, the tall clubs,
the local women's bowling league or any other organization composed
exclusively of people with a given qualifying characteristic, and
which you know little or nothng about? Why pick on Mensa? Jealous?
Why be jealous? I don't qualify for lots of organizations, including
some based on IQ (Tripple Nine for example where you have to be at the
99.9 percentile or above), but I don't worry about it much. The fact
that there are people smarter than me is not something that bothers
me...I'm kind of glad there are. It's all the ones that can't find
their own ass with both hands, a flashlight and a set of written
directions that bug me. Besides, everybody is dumb at something and
smart at something...only the specifics and numbers of things vary.
For example, there are Mensans who can't figure out thier VCR
programming, while I can always do it without any instructions...just
seems obvious to me, given what the thing is intended for, and the
same goes for movie projectors, or any other tool or machinery that I
know the purpose of. On the other hand, anagrams avoid me like the
plague, while other folks can glance at a word and start seeing all
the other words and phrases that can be formed from those letters.
Different strengths for different folks. When you get enough of them
in one person, they can score high enough on the test to get in, but
that doesn't mean that there isn't somebody out there who can best
them at any one of them by a wide margin, who just doesn't have enough
breadth of ability to match the test score.
I got what I wanted from Mensa (friends, good times and a wife), so I
think it's a great organization which I still belong too, though I'm
not very active in local events these days. It was a great relief to
find a group of people that I didn't have to explain my jokes to all
the time. From what I've seen, a lot of the folks here would qualify
for membership should they choose to do so, but they apparently are
getting all the social interaction they need in other ways. So what?
Should there be only one possibility that everyone has to subscribe
to?
-- Mike "sick of those farther down the curve who just can't, or
won't, understand..." Bartman --
Mike Bartman
On Sun, 05 Oct 1997 21:55:22 -0700, Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka
Cali4nia <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
>I've got a question for anyone here who's ever had a membership in
>MENSA. Have you ever had a comment made on it during a job interview?
No, because I never bring it up or put it on a resume. As this thread
shows, there are way too many people out there who have no idea what
the organization is, what the members are like and who have vague to
strong anti- feelings about it.
I don't *hide* the fact, and if anyone asked I'd tell them about it,
and several of my co-workers know I belong, but it just doesn't seem
relevent to getting a job as a programmer, so I don't mention it while
job hunting.
I don't mention that I'm a student pilot, or that I build things from
wood for fun, or that I read a lot of science fiction either. The
resume is long enough without adding in irrelevent things.
BTW - there are a lot more Mensa-qualified people in the world than
there are Mensa members. In the D.C. area alone there are at least
(statistically speaking) 20,000 people who would qualify for
membership, yet only about 1800 belong. That's less than 10%. Of the
ones who do belong, only about 15% show up at events at all often, and
half or more never show up...they just join and get the magazine and
newsletter.
-- Mike "it's a social organization and not everyone is social"
Bartman --
Ron Koolman
Gesi Rovario wrote:
<Peanuts snipped> (Now *there's a painful thought!)
> There. It should take you a while to dig out from under that!<G>
> Oh, would you like a BOYC with those?:)
>
> Gesi
>
>
> Friends: People who know you well, and like you anyway.
Sure. Chocolate coke - half coke, half creme de cacao.
--
I'm completely insane, and | Costume by Rashid
with a little diligence the | Historically accurate clothing
same could be said of you. | Third generation Tailor
<rkoo...@one.net>
Mike Bartman
On 6 Oct 1997 08:29:04 GMT, les...@vex.net (Leslie) wrote:
>In alt.callahans, The Polymath (poly...@pacbell.net) said:
>+>"Some people, when they learn I'm in Mensa, ask, 'So, what's it like,
>+>being a genius?' I always reply, 'I wouldn't know, but I know what it's
>+>like to be smart enough to understand what real genius is -- and to know
>+>you're not one.'"
>
>Leslie nods in understanding. "That sums up how I think, too. AFAIK, I
>qualify for Mensa, but I'm no genius. But, `where a bright leads, a tween
>can follow....'"
Yep!, and sometimes geniuses are too tightly focused to stay on the
path without help from those with dimmer, but wider lights.
>Leslie. (Quote from the _Children of Tomorrow_ anthology.)
Wasn't the story called _Star Bright_? Great story!!
-- Mike "Spider's right...too many good stories need saving from
oblivion..." Bartman --
Mike Bartman
On 2 Oct 97 21:37:21 GMT, "Jeanne Burton" <jea...@toltbbs.com> wrote:
>never quite been accepted anywhere...I never did learn to hide my IQ very
>well, and (sexist remark acknowledged) I have found that men don't like
>intelligent women much, and women like them even less.
Yeah, that's a sexist remark...it's also sort of misleading. Yes, the
effect you describe does exist, but it isn't because you are female,
it's because lots of people (mostly men apaprently) hate *anyone*
who's smarter than they are. The same men who didn't like you because
you were smart wouldn't like me for the same reason (assuming that I
was as much smarter than them as you were). This is a stupid way to
be, but, heck, by hating smart people they are kind of implying that
they are stupid, so stupid behavior isn't unlikely, right? :^)
I LOVE intelligent women, and so do most of the guys I choose to hang
around with. I didn't marry a stupid woman either, though she's not a
member of Mensa (but I *did* meet her at a Mensa party! :^). I've
never dumped a girlfriend because she was too smart, though I did drop
one for being a bit, er, blond? (nothing against blond women, just
trying to communicate here using common concepts, ok?). Smart is a
big attractant as far as I'm concerned, and it can make up for a good
bit of plainness in the appearance department. Great looks are enough
to get attention, but not to keep it. Both looks and smarts is the
ideal of course! :^)
>So maybe I'm cynical about the whole exclusionist policy of mensa...maybe I
>just saw what was there, but I hope your group is better than mine
Mensa is made up of people, and people vary. Group dynamics can
create groups like what you found...consider that *you* didn't stay
long, so others who weren't like that probably took an early hike as
well, leaving behind only what you found. The only way to break this
is for a few decent folks to stick with it and try to attract more
into joining. Before long you've outnumbered the more misanthropic
ones, who either quit showing up, learn to be friendlier, or disappear
into the background noise. If everyone shows up a couple of times,
decides that there's nothing worth staying for and leaves, it never
changes.
The local group, Metro Washington Mensa, has it's share of social
misfits and unpleasant people, but it also has lots of really great
people too. Maybe it's just the larger population here compared to
some places, but there's enough variety to interest anyone, and if
not, there's certainly acceptance of people starting new things.
I only enjoy spending time with some types of people. I think this is
true for most folks, though exactly which folks they enjoy varies all
over the place. In the population at large I find that, say 10%
(maybe less) of the people I meet are folks I'd like to spend my free
time with. At SF conventions I found the number to be more like 25%.
At Mensa events it was closer to 50%, sometimes higher. Being in
Mensa didn't mean I'd like to spend time with a person, it just gave
me a much improved shot at finding such people. That alone was worth
joining for. Other people may find their best chance at ski clubs,
boating associations, or political protests. That's fine for them,
but it don't work for me. Mensa does.
-- Mike "obviously the selectiveness is an attraction for me, not
something to be cynical about" Bartman --
Jim Pierce
Mike Bartman <mi...@foolie.eco.twg.com> wrote:
[] "Maybe he has really long arms?"
This reminds me of what George Carlin once said:
"If God hadn't meant for us to masturbate, he would have made our
arms shorter." George Carlin.
Which, of course, could lead to some interesting conversations...
George said much about this, but I was laughing so hard when I heard
that, I'm not clear on what it was he said...
:-)
DJ.
--
Jim
Book: Dennis Overbye 'Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos.'
Jim Pierce
Assuredly.
My tenth grade science teacher tried to give me an F for my 'made
from scratch' morse code oscillator. A friend at the then local Ham
radio club drew me the schematic, and gave me a parts list. He also
loaned me a morse key. [ Yes, brass.]
I made it myself, no one helped. The teacher tried to claim I used
a bloody kit ! My dad said he would be happy to show the idjit the
receipt that listed all of the parts. That store didn't sell such
things in kits. I finally got a C.
I've left out alot... the teacher later apologized, and then gave
me the C. argh. I did get told mine was one of the most original
science projects there, by other people.
DJ.
--
Jim M. Pierce jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu
Mike Bartman
On 6 Oct 1997 06:01:15 GMT, stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S.
Billings) wrote:
>In article <01bcd067$f94ccc60$6923...@jeanneb.cyberdrive.net>,
>jea...@toltbbs.com says...
>>Goddess...I don't have to. There are men out there who will
>appreciate me
>>for who and what I am, and I think I've got the best one of all in my
>>living room at the moment.
>
>can be sure of finding an intelligent man." If he doesn't get the
>implication the first time, I can go on and say, "A really smart guy
>has enough self-confidence not to be intimidated by a smart woman."
If he doesn't get the implication the first time he's already flunked!
:^)
>Frankly, if they can't deal with my brains, I'd rather find it out up
>front than after wasting a couple of years on them.
>
>Celine
Right! At conventions I have used buttons as a filtering mechanism.
For example, I have *two* buttons, both of which read, "What color is
a chameleon in a mirror?" and wear one on each side. How people react
will let you know a lot about thier thinking speed. The ones who say,
"I don't get it..." aren't totally hopless, at least they are smart
enough to inquire about it, but the ones who get it instantly are the
ones who tend to be fun to talk to. The ones who think of an angle
*I* haven't noticed are worth buying drinks for to keep around! :^)
Another button is one that reads "Secret Master Of "...
-- Mike "half sword, will travel....fast!" Bartman --
Ron Koolman
SHolly2534 wrote:
>
> In article <343b2195...@news.visi.com>, dim...@visi.com (William
> Bruce) writes:
>
> >Pardon my interruption. But I just had to comment here. I didn't
> >know that particle physics had a 'basic' level. I thought it started
> >at mind-boggling and worked it way up to theoretical from there.
> >
> >Heh
> >
> >
> >William Bruce
>
> particle physics.... so if you are physics deficient particle physics *is*
> mind-boggling... but to those in the know, merely 'basic'. (get me beyond
> bosons and mesons and I get lost... )
>
> Holly
> Are we having pun yet?
Didn't I just read someplace that someone is working on a matter
duplicator based on a particle just discovered...boson the clone?
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Jim Pierce wrote:
>
> Francis A. Ney, Jr. <cro...@access.digex.net> wrote:
> [] A teaching certificate does not guarantee competency.
>
> Assuredly.
>
> My tenth grade science teacher tried to give me an F for my 'made
> from scratch' morse code oscillator. A friend at the then local Ham
> radio club drew me the schematic, and gave me a parts list. He also
> loaned me a morse key. [ Yes, brass.]
>
> I made it myself, no one helped. The teacher tried to claim I used
> a bloody kit ! My dad said he would be happy to show the idjit the
> receipt that listed all of the parts. That store didn't sell such
> things in kits. I finally got a C.
Had a similar experience. Wrote and illustrated a research paper in
fourth grade, on the history of bicycles. It came back with a D on it,
and a note telling me I had copied it out of a book. I told the teacher
to speak to my parents, who had observed me writing it at the kitchen
table, and was finally given a B, after rewriting the damn thing. Some
people don't seem to realize that the same statistics which guarantee
that 99% of your students will be unable to write a lucid paper in
fourth grade, also guarantee that one percent of them *are* able to do
so. And a teacher with several dozen students per term might think about
how to deal with the one percent that is certain to appear...
(Didn't realize how much this still upset me. I don't mind a teacher
playing the odds and assuming I cheated until presented with other
evidence -- what chaps my ass is that I wasn't taken aside and *asked*
before I was given a grade. Growf.)
Regards,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
BetNoir
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia wrote:
> I don't mind a teacher
> playing the odds and assuming I cheated until presented with other
> evidence -- what chaps my ass is that I wasn't taken aside and *asked*
>
> before I was given a grade. Growf.)
Say, did that teacher moonlight in high school English lit on the side?
MY experience was with an attempt to show how much the characters in the
play Julius Ceasar were driven by fate. For my final paper, I
essentially 're-wrote' the play as a 'what-if' story. You know...if you
think this character should do this, turn to this page..and then the
story continues until you get to another branch where you get to choose
again. Pain in the ass and took me the better part of two weeks to do,
but I thought it a rather unique way of addressing the question.
And I got a c minus. Why? Because the teacher said I had done more
than what was required....translation: She didn't want to take the time
to READ the entire thing.
There was also another teacher who told me that all the Civil War battle
plans were not going to be on the make-up test I arranged wsith
him...and lo and behold, there they were....all battle plans. When I
asked him why, he said it was because I was absent on the day of the
original test --- what did he think I was doing asking him about a
make-up test????
I got so mad that I refused to take the test and told the teacher just
to give me an F. Which mattered not at all, because I had A's on the
OTHER 25 chapter tests, so it averaged out to...an A! This was the same
teacher whose was the only class I have ever walked out on.
Ron Koolman
BetNoir wrote:
> Say, did that teacher moonlight in high school English lit on the side?
>
> MY experience was with an attempt to show how much the characters in the
> play Julius Ceasar were driven by fate. For my final paper, I
> essentially 're-wrote' the play as a 'what-if' story. You know...if you
> think this character should do this, turn to this page..and then the
> story continues until you get to another branch where you get to choose
> again. Pain in the ass and took me the better part of two weeks to do,
> but I thought it a rather unique way of addressing the question.
>
> And I got a c minus. Why? Because the teacher said I had done more
> than what was required....translation: She didn't want to take the time
> to READ the entire thing.
>
> There was also another teacher who told me that all the Civil War battle
> plans were not going to be on the make-up test I arranged wsith
> him...and lo and behold, there they were....all battle plans. When I
> asked him why, he said it was because I was absent on the day of the
> original test --- what did he think I was doing asking him about a
> make-up test????
>
> I got so mad that I refused to take the test and told the teacher just
> to give me an F. Which mattered not at all, because I had A's on the
> OTHER 25 chapter tests, so it averaged out to...an A! This was the same
> teacher whose was the only class I have ever walked out on.
Two for me.
In sophomere HS English, the first essay in AP English we had to write
was 50 words on how Marilyn Monroe's suicide had affected us over the
summer. (Yes, it was *that* long ago.) I said that it didn't, I didn't
care, so what? I got an F on it because I didn't show any sensitivity or
some such rot. I complained, of course, to no avail, of course. And was
never honest in his class again.
The second was in college. I had to leave early on a vacation for some
reason I can't remember, and asked my Statistics instructor if I could
take the mid-term early, after explaining why. He said no, I had to be
there for the test. I again said I couldn't be there for the test, and
again explained why, with the same result. I then gave him several
physically impossible options as well as detailing his ancestry, and
walked out. The result was, that even though I got all C's on my exams,
I got an A in the course. Hmmmmph!
Duane E. Peters
> Didn't I just read someplace that someone is working on a matter
> duplicator based on a particle just discovered...boson the clone?
No, no that's "what's red and white and comes in a test tube?"
Master Charles Henri Beaufort
Keeper of the Crossed Keys Inn
(No Scots allowed to enter with livestock...)
"How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of
the weak and strong. Because, someday in your life you will have been all
of these."
--
George Washington Carver
Lee S. Billings
In article
<228ADA8252D284B0.9EFEA790...@library-proxy.airne
ws.net>, mi...@foolie.eco.twg.com says...
>>Response to "You're intimidating": <sweet smile> "That's the only way
I
>>can be sure of finding an intelligent man." If he doesn't get the
>>implication the first time, I can go on and say, "A really smart guy
>>has enough self-confidence not to be intimidated by a smart woman."
>
>If he doesn't get the implication the first time he's already flunked!
>:^)
Well, that goes without saying -- but I'll often go ahead and apply the
Cosmic Two-By-Four anyhow, just on general principles.
>>Frankly, if they can't deal with my brains, I'd rather find it out up
>>front than after wasting a couple of years on them.
>>
>>Celine
>
>Right! At conventions I have used buttons as a filtering mechanism.
>For example, I have *two* buttons, both of which read, "What color is
>a chameleon in a mirror?" and wear one on each side. How people react
>will let you know a lot about thier thinking speed. The ones who say,
>"I don't get it..." aren't totally hopless, at least they are smart
>enough to inquire about it, but the ones who get it instantly are the
>ones who tend to be fun to talk to. The ones who think of an angle
>*I* haven't noticed are worth buying drinks for to keep around! :^)
What color is a chameleon in a mirror? The same color as the one on the
other side of the mirror!
Other good screening buttons:
Johnny was a chemist, but Johnny is no more;
What Johnny thought was H2O was H2SO4
Eschew Obfuscation!
H.H. Munro is a wry swine
355/113: Not the famous irrational number pi, but an incredible
simulation!
Celine
Lee S. Billings
In article <343b2195...@news.visi.com>, dim...@visi.com says...
>Pardon my interruption. But I just had to comment here. I didn't
>know that particle physics had a 'basic' level. I thought it started
>at mind-boggling and worked it way up to theoretical from there.
The *mathematical underpinning* is mind-boggling, but the base concepts
can be described in layman's language. Asimov did a wonderful job of
tackling this in his science essays, and anyone of average or better
intelligence should be able to follow his explanations.
Celine
CJB
Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net (Jim Pierce) was rumored to have said:
:-> I know several women who could be just about anything they wanted
:->to be. They are highly intelligent. They have chosen to be dumb,
:->outwardly. I have had conversations with one or two of them, and
:->recognized that they were more intelligent than they portrayed
:->themselves.
:->
I know a person like that. Chemistry majior, highly intelligent
person, who acts like an airhead most of the time. Now maybe she acts
like that because she has to think so much at school, but it drives me
nuts, absolutly nuts.
Eleri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The very first thing necessary to anyone who's weird
is a place where they dont give you a hard time just
beacuse you're weird" --- Mike Callahan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
remove "spamless" to e-mail me, also eleritwilight at geocities dot com
CJB
noel...@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)) was rumored to
have said:
:->On 5 Oct 1997 05:11:17 GMT, Dj...@NORutabagas.concentric.net (Jim
:->Pierce) wrote:
:->
:->
:->> The other woman I now, has a degree, but she portrays herself
as
:->>having 'barely passed high school'. I was talking to her one day,
:->>and she said several things that made my jaw drop. She probably
:->>has an IQ high enough to join Mensa.
:->
:->Noel grins wryly. "I *did* 'barely pass throught high school'. I
:->have enough writing examples on the Net for you to form your own
:->opinion of my intelligence. Academic acchievement is not, *not* an
:->accurate measurement of intelligence."
Nope, definately not, but you'd be amazed how many people assume that
it is. I only finished my sophmore year, and half of my junior, and
got a GED a year later, but because I don't have that diploma, and
because I never went on to college, people assume that I must be dumb.
Either that or I get the "you could be so much better" from the people
who know I'm intelligent. I have to explain that my 80 and 90
percentile scores on my GED mean that I did better than 80%-90% of
high school seniors who took the same test. (Scary, hmm? And they use
this to judge people who don't do high school)
CJB
The Polymath <poly...@pacbell.net> was rumored to have said:
:->Lee S. Billings wrote:
:->
:->>Obviously not all men are like that, since you now have a SO who
values
:->>you for the person you are. My experience has been that
emotionally
:->>mature men of any age are more likely to be attracted to a highly
:->>intelligent woman than threatened by her. Now, admittedly,
emotionally
:->>mature men often seem to be in the minority <g>, but the point
stands.
:->
:->Now, this is a good reason to join Mensa, if ever I heard one.
Women in
:->Mensa are _assumed_ to be intelligent, so there's no point in
trying to
:->hide it. In fact, the only real, general snobbery I've found in
Mensa
:->is the attitude towards the few female members who still insist on
:->pretending to be bimbos (and the few pathetic males who are
attracted to
:->them).
:->
:->Last I heard, the male:female membership ratio was still about 2:1.
So,
:->ladies, the odds are good (but the goods are sometimes odd).
:->
I seriously considered joining Mensa once, just because I *could*. It
would have made me very pleased to be able to walk into the welfare
office and flash my card when they started to tak to my like a 3 year
old (why is it people assume poverty means stupidity? No, IMO dear...I
don't need you right now.) The reason I didn't? One, the money, I
couldn't come up with the cash for tests and such, and two, the
presure. Sure sitting in my own home I can take a timed test and do
just fine. But put me in a room with a proctor, and a ticking clock,
and I'd cave in. I'd never pass. I'd probably come out looking like an
idiot. My mom wasn't too pleased with my wanting to be a member, as
she put it "IQ means nothing if you have no common sense" Which is
true, but it would have been fun.
Daniel Briggs
"Forgive me if this point seems a bit pedantic, but there is a common
misconception about Mensa here I think needs correcting. (And I think
William probably knows this, too -- it's just the casual wording I'm really
objecting to.)
>But all you gotta do is prove to them you are in
^^^^^^^^^^
>the top 2% of the brain elite in the entire english speaking world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>They accept most standard tests that have a good cross-section of
>cognitive eruditeness (I always wanted to work that one into a
>sentence). Lessee, things like GMAT, SAT and ACT are accepted. They
>keep pretty good track of things too. Like if somebody dumbs down a
>test, they will then change their requirements for that test or even
>disallow it in the future.
"This isn't quite what they require. What they (usually) require is that
you score in the top 2% of *one* of a set of standardized tests such as
William mentions -- *once*. You can try as many times as you like, and
this really skews the statistics. If Mensa members were required to
*average* in the top 2% of a suite of a different tests and/or in different
instances of the same repeatable test, then they'd have a good case of
being in the top 2% of what ever it is that those tests measure.
"I don't really have a good feeling for what the measurement variance of a
typical IQ (or related) test is, but I suspect it's pretty substantial.
(It's probably less than the published variance of the full population,
depending on how the data processing is done, but not necessarily a lot
less. Do any of our psych types happen to know?) But I can tell you this:
if the testing errors are normally distributed and you take a Mensa
acceptable test 5 times, you'll have a 58% chance of seeing at least one
test more than 1 standard deviation over your mean. There's an 11% chance
of seeing +2 standard deviations. Take a test 20 times, and it becomes 96%
chance of +1 standard deviation and 37% chance of +2. Heck, you have a 16%
chance of seeing a +1 sigma result even if you only take one test that
Mensa will accept.
"What that means, minus the jargon, is that anyone can have a good day --
and you only need one!
"Next, even dodging the question of what such tests measure, some tests
are a better match to any individual's background than others. You
just have to take one of the tests that plays to your strengths. The
ones that you're particularly bad at don't matter.
"And if one was particularly interested in joining Mensa, you can take one
of their own silly "find the pattern" tests. Sure, sometimes these
things can seem hard at first, but really there's only a fairly small
number of *kinds* of patterns that they are looking for. With practice
or coaching, they get a whole lot easier. Any test gets easier with
practice, but this sort in particular get *much* easier after someone
has explained what sort of patterns they're usually looking for.
"There are even additional ways in, such as letters from certified
Psychologists that you don't test well but really are rather bright.
I think now the Mensa psychologists also have to examine you. But
the bottom line is, it just isn't that hard to get into Mensa. The
primary important attribute is the desire to do it. Lots and lots
of medium bright people already have test scores sitting around
which would qualify them, and lots more people could learn to take
the tests well enough, if they were motivated enough to do it.
"If someone tells you that they're a Mensa member, don't immediately assume
that they're either super intelligent or super snooty. It really just
means that they're at least of average intelligence, they get something out
of being a member, and that they took the time to join.
>BTW, is this even on thread. Dunno as I am browsing for first time
>here today.
"Don't worry, William -- I've only been half paying attention to this
thread myself, but I think we're both OK. And welcome to the Place.
Dan'l
(BTW, anyone who wants to check the list of acceptable (US) scores, see
http://www.us.mensa.org/scores.htm.)
R. Wald
(posted and mailed)
In article <343C3E...@one.net>, Ron Koolman <rkoo...@one.net> wrote:
>
>The second was in college. I had to leave early on a vacation for some
>reason I can't remember, and asked my Statistics instructor if I could
>take the mid-term early, after explaining why. He said no, I had to be
>there for the test. I again said I couldn't be there for the test, and
>again explained why, with the same result. I then gave him several
>physically impossible options as well as detailing his ancestry, and
>walked out. The result was, that even though I got all C's on my exams,
>I got an A in the course. Hmmmmph!
"Gee, Ron," Rivka says slowly. "I'm afraid that I would have to side with
the instructor on this one. I don't consider vacation a valid reason for
missing a test, and I think it's entirely up to the instructor whether or
not to allow a make-up exam under those conditions. Giving a make-up exam
is a real pain - you have to write a completely separate test, of
equivalent difficulty, and then proctor the damn thing on your own time.
I'll gladly do it for students with legitimate excuses - family funerals,
doctor's notes, whatever - but a student who just wanted to leave early
for vacation wouldn't get much sympathy from me. Especially if he cussed
me out.
"I don't understand the last line of your post... you got Cs on all the
exams and then got an A in the course? As a result of this altercation? Is
that a typo, or am I missing something?"
Daniel Briggs
>Right! At conventions I have used buttons as a filtering mechanism.
>For example, I have *two* buttons, both of which read, "What color is
>a chameleon in a mirror?" and wear one on each side. How people react
>will let you know a lot about thier thinking speed. The ones who say,
>"I don't get it..." aren't totally hopless, at least they are smart
>enough to inquire about it, but the ones who get it instantly are the
>ones who tend to be fun to talk to. The ones who think of an angle
>*I* haven't noticed are worth buying drinks for to keep around! :^)
Actually, it seems like kind of a dull situation to me. If the chameleon
sees himself in the mirror and tries to match it, the system is already in
stable equilibrium and he stays whatever color he started. If he sees the
wall behind him, he matches that and the presence of the mirror is pretty
nearly irrelevant. A better button would be "what color are two chameleons
watching each other? Posit two different and finite response times, and
you'll get an interesting differential equation. The final color, (also
eventually in stable equilibrium), will be somewhere "between" the two
initial colors, but will be difficult to predict in detail. But even
there, you don't get any fun oscillations. (I do like the image of two
chameleons frantically chasing each other in color, but unfortunately that
won't happen.) The basic problem is that there is no analog here to
inertia in a gravitational system. When the colors are close to each
other, the stimulus to change color goes away and there is no other force
to kick the system out of equilibrium.
Or am I missing something obvious?
Dan'l
| Daniel Briggs (dbr...@astro.uiuc.edu) [ USPA D-18486 ]
| NCSA / UIUC Astronomy [ DoD #387 ]
| 1002 W. Green St., Urbana, IL 61801 (217) 244-5468
| Dart: MC Ot+W H 7 Y L+ W C+ I++ T++ A+ H+ S+ V+ P++/P B+
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
In article <343C33...@pop3.concentric.net> er...@pop3.concentric.net writes:
> > Francis A. Ney, Jr. <cro...@access.digex.net> wrote:
> > [] A teaching certificate does not guarantee competency.
> >
> > Assuredly.
> >
> > My tenth grade science teacher tried to give me an F for my 'made
> > from scratch' morse code oscillator. A friend at the then local Ham
> > radio club drew me the schematic, and gave me a parts list. He also
> > loaned me a morse key. [ Yes, brass.]
>
> Had a similar experience. Wrote and illustrated a research paper in
> fourth grade, on the history of bicycles. It came back with a D on it,
> and a note telling me I had copied it out of a book. I told the teacher
> to speak to my parents, who had observed me writing it at the kitchen
> table, and was finally given a B, after rewriting the damn thing. Some
> people don't seem to realize that the same statistics which guarantee
> that 99% of your students will be unable to write a lucid paper in
> fourth grade, also guarantee that one percent of them *are* able to do
> so. And a teacher with several dozen students per term might think about
> how to deal with the one percent that is certain to appear...
This just proves that there are teachers floating around that should not only
have their certificates yanked, they should be put on public display at the
supermarket in stocks and free rotted produce provided.
To be followed by bastinado.
And in the afternoon, set up in a pirhana-filled dunk tank.
---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --
"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the
effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of
the state, unable to resist."
- Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning _Red Planet_
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 03:25:42 GMT, el...@spamless.aracnet.com (CJB)
wrote:
>I seriously considered joining Mensa once, just because I *could*. It
>would have made me very pleased to be able to walk into the welfare
>office and flash my card when they started to tak to my like a 3 year
>old
Noel chuckles softly, "If you have a round face and wide eyes, chances
are you'll get the moron treatment wherever you go. I don't *look*
intelligent, so I know where you're coming from. My worst problem
tends to be with medical professionals -- doctors being the worst.
Any time I have to be attended by a new doctor, I have to tell him
(men tend to be worse about this than women) 'Chances are good that I
am as bright as yourself. You can use medical terminology without
causing me to faint. If you use a word I don't understand, I'll stop
you for a definition. I promise.'"
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
"The best solution to oppressive and bigotted behavior is rarely
to respond exactly the same way to the "group" seen as doing it."
KAZ Vorpal
R. Wald
(posted & mailed)
In article <343994...@pacbell.net>,
The Polymath <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>R. Wald wrote:
>>In article <34380C...@pacbell.net>, The Polymath <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>>>"It says here that 4 standard deviations puts you at the 99.997th
>>>percentile. For better or worse, that is the only definition of genius
>>>I'm aware of that's stated in terms of IQ score.
>>
>>"I still don't understand whose definition of genius this is. What
>>source are you using that puts the cutoff at 4 SD?
>
>Probably Binet, but, off the top of my head, I can't say for certain.
>These are figures that stuck in my head in the course of getting my
>master's in clinical psych, but I don't remember which course or book
>they came out of. I graduated 17 years ago and they were obsolete
>then. The terms 'normal,' 'bright,' 'gifted,' and 'genius' are the
>positive mirrors of 'moron,' 'idiot,' and 'imbecile' ('normal' straddles
>the mean). I don't think anyone in the psychological professions
>actually uses these terms anymore, but they remain part of the popular
>culture.
"Oh, okay!" Rivka grins. "Hard to believe that 'moron' was actually once
considered a technical term, huh? I don't think 'genius' has a defined
meaning anymore, at least as a point on a psychological test or anything.
I looked up 'qualitative descriptions of IQ scores' in the brand-spanking-
new WAIS-III manual. (The newest version of the Wechsler adult test.) The
desriptors it listed were:
130 and above very superior
120-129 superior
110-119 high average
90-109 average
80-89 low average
70-79 borderline
69 and below extremely low.
"When an IQ of 69 or below is accompanied by substantial skills deficits
(hard to imagine how it could not be, huh?) the person is considered to
have mental retardation, which is further subdivided into Mild (IQ 50-70),
Moderate (I think it's IQ 30-50), Severe (20-30), and Profound (below 20).
I might have some of those ranges mixed up - Mild is the only one I'm sure
of.
"Incidentally, I said before that the Wechsler doesn't provide scores
above 145... but apparently the newest version goes up to 155. I stand
corrected."
Laura Packer 5-2027
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Noel Lynne Figart wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 03:25:42 GMT, el...@spamless.aracnet.com (CJB)
> wrote:
>
> >I seriously considered joining Mensa once, just because I *could*. It
> >would have made me very pleased to be able to walk into the welfare
> >office and flash my card when they started to tak to my like a 3 year
> >old
>
> Noel chuckles softly, "If you have a round face and wide eyes, chances
> are you'll get the moron treatment wherever you go. I don't *look*
> intelligent, so I know where you're coming from. My worst problem
> tends to be with medical professionals -- doctors being the worst.
> Any time I have to be attended by a new doctor, I have to tell him
> (men tend to be worse about this than women) 'Chances are good that I
> am as bright as yourself. You can use medical terminology without
> causing me to faint. If you use a word I don't understand, I'll stop
> you for a definition. I promise.'"
>
Laura laughs.
"When I first entered medical hell three years ago, I greeted all my
doctors with a schpiel much like yours. Something to the effect of,
'Please don't sugar coat anything, please speak to me as you would a
colleague- I'll let you know if I don't understand. I am quite interested
in understanding what is happening to me to the fullest degree possible,
and I am not an idiot.' This went over well with most of the doctors, and
I believe I got better treatment as a result.
"I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who has done this."
Laura
storyteller, folklorist, dreamer
Mike Bartman
On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 15:05:28 GMT, noel...@erols.com (Noel Lynne
Figart (aka neko-chan)) wrote:
>intelligent, so I know where you're coming from. My worst problem
>tends to be with medical professionals -- doctors being the worst.
>Any time I have to be attended by a new doctor, I have to tell him
>(men tend to be worse about this than women) 'Chances are good that I
>am as bright as yourself. You can use medical terminology without
>causing me to faint. If you use a word I don't understand, I'll stop
>you for a definition. I promise.'"
"I never get this blatant about it, but I do the same. I usually just
ask questions using the proper terminology (when I know it) and make
the questions show some understanding of what's going on. The
response is either an enthusiastic elaboration of whatever was just
told me ('Hey! You *do* know something about this! Ok, it's like
this...'), or an attempt at a snow job where they get very technical.
If I can follow it anyway, they usually look surprised and try to get
away quickly, if I can't I ask more questions until they tell me what
I want to know. I tend to go back to the first kind of doctor rather
than the second..."
--Berek "I like folks who are interested in their work, and anyone
interested is interested in sharing it" Halfaxe--
Jim Pierce
Celine:
[] What color is a chameleon in a mirror? The same color as the one on the
[] other side of the mirror!
I read an article about this a number of years ago...
The article claimed that the chameleon would be the color it was
before it walked onto the mirror. Haven't tested it myself...
DJ.
--
Jim
Book: C. J. Cherryh 'Pride of Chanur'
Looking Wolf
Ron Koolman wrote in message <343C3E...@one.net>...
>BetNoir wrote:
>
>> Say, did that teacher moonlight in high school English lit on the
side?
>>
>> MY experience was with an attempt to show how much the characters in
the
>> play Julius Ceasar were driven by fate. For my final paper, I
>> essentially 're-wrote' the play as a 'what-if' story. You know...if
you
>> think this character should do this, turn to this page..and then the
>> story continues until you get to another branch where you get to
choose
>> again. Pain in the ass and took me the better part of two weeks to
do,
>> but I thought it a rather unique way of addressing the question.
>>
>> And I got a c minus. Why? Because the teacher said I had done more
>> than what was required....translation: She didn't want to take the
time
>> to READ the entire thing.
"That sounds like the experience that helped me decide to end my
experiment with college.
"Despite having the recommendation of my AP English teacher, and despite
having taken the 'placement exams' for this college without missing a
single question (it was a community college in Florida - my reasons for
going there are another story entirely) I was required to take an
introductory English class. I thought it would be simplicity itself.
"Then I turned in my first 'report' - three pages on some nonsense or
other that I don't remember. The teacher's judgement was that I had
written 'better than the requirements and above the level of the class'.
The grade: D. I asked him what in the bloody hell was wrong with the
paper, and he repeated that judgement. It seems that I was supposed to
write at the level of the rest of the class and no higher.
"This class was filled with people who were incompetent to complete a
sentence. Not a one of them could figure out (and this is a true
example) why 'The red car' was not a complete and correct sentence.
"Needless to say, I left the class."
>In sophomere HS English, the first essay in AP English we had to write
>was 50 words on how Marilyn Monroe's suicide had affected us over the
>summer. (Yes, it was *that* long ago.) I said that it didn't, I didn't
>care, so what? I got an F on it because I didn't show any sensitivity
or
>some such rot. I complained, of course, to no avail, of course. And was
>never honest in his class again.
<snip>
"Something similar happened when I was required to write a brief essay
about my feelings about the Challenger disaster. My failing grade was
for two reasons: first, I wrote eight pages instead of one, and second,
I wept for the space program, and mankind in general, rather than
specifically for Ms. McAuliffe. This is not to say that I glossed over
her death, or those of the rest of the Challenger crew, but I painted it
as the noble death of the explorer rather than the tragic death of a
schoolteacher caught up in circumstances she could not possibly
understand."
Thw wolf pauses for breath. "I think I'd better quit before I start
conjuring soapboxes."
...Looking Wolf
Mike Bartman
On 9 Oct 1997 18:06:30 GMT, se...@izzy5.izzy.net (Sanford E. Walke IV)
wrote:
>Mike Bartman (mi...@foolie.eco.twg.com) wrote:
>
>>"Want to buy the whole collection?"
>
>Ummm. Yes, possibly. What years do you cover?
I need to dig out the boxes and unseal them, but it's from the
middleish 70's to the late 80's. There's one issue in the late 70's
that the post office ate pretty badly, but the rest are in very good
condition or better...all centerfolds intact and never removed... ;^)
>(Posted because apparently your address is anti-spammed, and I couldn't
>find any directions to unbreak it, and I don't feel like trying all the
>possible variations.)
Sorry, I'll check my setup...there's supposed to be a sig on there
that explains it. Take out the 'foolie" to reply....
--Berek "mi...@eco.twg.com" Halfaxe--
Sanford E. Walke IV
Mike Bartman (mi...@foolie.eco.twg.com) wrote:
>"Want to buy the whole collection?"
Ummm. Yes, possibly. What years do you cover?
(Posted because apparently your address is anti-spammed, and I couldn't
find any directions to unbreak it, and I don't feel like trying all the
possible variations.)
--
Sandy se...@izzy.net
Be a trend-setter, take responsibility for the results of your actions.
I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that.
Ron Koolman
R. Wald wrote:
> Rivka laughs. "When I had my surgery I kept wanting to say, 'Did you know
> that my graduate program was probably harder to get into than your medical
> school? Stop being condescending!' The absolute *worst* was the
> anesthesiology resident who put me under. She was, in all other respects,
> very nice... but she just didn't understand what level of information I
> wanted. We kept having frustrating exchanges like:
>
> Rivka: What's that you're putting in the IV?
> Resident: It's just some medicine.
> Rivka: Okay, but what is it? What kind of medicine?
> Resident: It's something to make you a little bit sleepy.
> Rivka: Is it a benzodiazepine?
> Resident: It will help you relax for the surgery.
>
> "I understand that some people don't *want* too much information about
> what's happening in a situation like that - but damn it, they should at
> least be able to adapt their communication style when it becomes clear
> that you *do* want to know, and would *understand.*"
I took care of my doctor (who I hadn't been to except once since my
family doctor retired) on my first recent visit. When my health
insurance kicked in 3 years ago, I went to be tested for diabetes
because I figured that was what the problem was. After talking with me
and getting a little background (and he was non-judgmental about what I
knew/didn't know...treated me like a maybe knowledgable *adult*), he
handed me a cup and told me to piss into for him. I took out a tightly
closed bottle, told him the sample was 1/2 hour old and I had been
fasting for 12 hours, and asked if it would do. He has never even
started to be condescending to me since then.
Thomas Price
>In article <343C33...@pop3.concentric.net> er...@pop3.concentric.net
>> Had a similar experience. Wrote and illustrated a research paper in
>> fourth grade, on the history of bicycles. It came back with a D on it,
>> and a note telling me I had copied it out of a book. I told the teacher
>> to speak to my parents, who had observed me writing it at the kitchen
>> table, and was finally given a B, after rewriting the damn thing. Some
>> people don't seem to realize that the same statistics which guarantee
>> that 99% of your students will be unable to write a lucid paper in
>> fourth grade, also guarantee that one percent of them *are* able to do
>> so. And a teacher with several dozen students per term might think about
>> how to deal with the one percent that is certain to appear...
*SIGH* i know the fealing. I had the bad habit of writing like an
encyclopedia when i wrote reaserch papers. I never plagerized i just
sounded exactly like the Encyclopedia Britanica. Luckaly i went to a
small private school and could have the teacher ask my previous years
teacher if i really did write that way. Guess thats what i get for reading
the encyclopedia and watching PBS for fun as a kid.
Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
tmp...@interaccess.com
thomas....@wheaton.edu
The Polymath
Lee S. Billings wrote:
>In article <01bcd22b$93385320$91c809c0@om>, d...@gw.omctn.inca.za says...
>>Gary Rumain <ze...@smart.net> wrote in article <614tsm$h2n$1...@news.smart.net>...
>>>In alt.callahans Don Paul <d...@gw.omctn.inca.za> wrote:
>>> Can't be that long - you said earlier you only used one hand.
>>
>>Have you seen my hands?
>>
>>Imagine for a moment, the outfielder's mitt....You're getting close!
>
>I'm not old enough for this conversation! ;-)
It is, however, typical of some Mensa exchanges I've heard.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath
(818) 882-6309
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
Mike Bartman
On 9 Oct 1997 04:07:26 GMT, dbr...@skye.astro.uiuc.edu (Daniel
"Yes. I'm not trying to find someone to answer the question, just
using the question as a stimulus to probe the viewer of the button.
Like the ink blot tests, there is no correct answer...it's a probe not
a problem."
Old joke related to that Raw Shock inkblot test thingy:
Therapist: I'm going to show you some pictures and I want you to tell
me what you see, OK?
Patient: OK.
Therapist: Here's the first one...
Patient: That looks like a man and a woman making love.
Therapist: OK...how about this one?
Patient: That looks like a whole bunch of people making love.
Therapist: Ok, and this one?
Patient: That looks like a bunch of bikers having sex with a bunch of
hookers.
Therapist: You seem to have a fixation on the subject of sex...
Patient: Me?!? *You're* the one with all the dirty pictures!
--Berek "always looked mostly like ink stains to me..." Halfaxe--
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On 9 Oct 1997 22:19:06 GMT, j...@juand.earth.nwu.edu (John DeLaughter)
wrote:
>I have found that picking up your chart and reading it can also be a
>good way to separate the good from the bad medicos. Good ones will
>typically look surprised, and ask you if you have any questions.
>Bad ones simply look pissed and try to take it away. I employed this
>technique with great success while nursing my sister through brain cancer;
>I even caught a couple of erroneous prescriptions this way...
"Good for you. Yes, I get doctors who get annoyed when I try to read
my own chart -- I left the pediatrician who tried to prevent me from
reading my son's. I also told him I was going to tell people in the
community exactly what happened."
>
>(Of course, it helped that my sister was a nurse...)
>
>John DeLaughter
Dave--See sig to reply
On Wed, 08 Oct 1997 18:30:07 -0700, Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka
Cali4nia <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
>Had a similar experience. Wrote and illustrated a research paper in
>fourth grade, on the history of bicycles. It came back with a D on it,
>and a note telling me I had copied it out of a book. I told the teacher
>to speak to my parents, who had observed me writing it at the kitchen
>table, and was finally given a B, after rewriting the damn thing. Some
>people don't seem to realize that the same statistics which guarantee
>that 99% of your students will be unable to write a lucid paper in
>fourth grade, also guarantee that one percent of them *are* able to do
>so. And a teacher with several dozen students per term might think about
>how to deal with the one percent that is certain to appear...
>
>(Didn't realize how much this still upset me. I don't mind a teacher
>playing the odds and assuming I cheated until presented with other
>evidence -- what chaps my ass is that I wasn't taken aside and *asked*
>before I was given a grade. Growf.)
I had a 9th grade science teacher, (actually a shop teacher assigned to
teach Introductory Physical Science) who accused me of cheating on a
test, because I was the only one to get a 98. I offered to take it
again, on my own time, with him watching, and that grade would stand.
He tried to welch when I got a 100.
He had reasons for not liking me. I knew more science than he did,
could prove it, and didn't have the sense to forgo proving it.
Generally in a way to make him look publicly foolish.
>
>Regards,
>
>Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
_______________________________________________________
If this is from mailcity, change mailcity to wesnet before responding.
If you forget, I'll eventually read it, (as long as the headers don't look like
spam) but mailcity will automatically send you email reminding you again of my
real address.
Looking Wolf
Lee S. Billings wrote in message <61ju74$f...@camel19.mindspring.com>...
>Try, "circumstances your groundhog English teacher couldn't possibly
>understand" and I think you'll be closer.
"Would you believe that this garbage came from a *science* teacher?
That was why I felt so betrayed. He should have known better."
...Looking Wolf
Looking Wolf
Dave--See sig to reply wrote in message
<34414f62...@news.wesnet.com>...
<snip>
>I had a 9th grade science teacher, (actually a shop teacher assigned to
>teach Introductory Physical Science) who accused me of cheating on a
>test, because I was the only one to get a 98. I offered to take it
>again, on my own time, with him watching, and that grade would stand.
>He tried to welch when I got a 100.
>He had reasons for not liking me. I knew more science than he did,
>could prove it, and didn't have the sense to forgo proving it.
>Generally in a way to make him look publicly foolish.
"Eleventh grade. Physics class. The teacher absolutely hated me, for
reasons very like the ones you just mentioned.
"I had a very extensive library at home, and I had read most of it by
the 11th grade. I had started my science education years before, with
popular science books like 'Quasar, Quasar, Burning Bright' by Asimov,
and 'Cosmos' and 'The Dragons of Eden' by Sagan. I read Sky&Telescope
magazine regularly. I subscribed to the Astronomy Book Club. At the
time I started his class, I was six chapters into a wonderful book
called 'The New Physics'. In short, I was a horrendously introverted
little geeknerd."
The wolf pauses for a moment, looks at his bookshelf, and grins.
"Gosh," he says sarcastically, "so much has changed!"
"So I enter this class expecting to have more of the wondrous mysteries
of the Universe revealed to me. Instead, I get Mr. P***: a short, fat,
angry, balding Italian man (he is the sort who gives a very bad name to
Italians - being one myself, I was rather offended) whom I had to
correct at least twice each class period. Of course, being an
introverted geeknerd, I had no tact whatsoever. For this, he despised
me.
"In the end, I gave up on the class. I brought my own books to read,
and did so quite openly - giving him another reason to hate me. It
really irked him, and won me no friends with the rest of the class, that
I consistently aced the tests despite never paying the slightest
attention to his 'teaching'.
"*This* is why I tend to have bitter thoughts about public education at
any level. In my experience at least, this teacher was not the
exception - he was simply a slightly exaggerated version of the norm.
It leaves me in a quandary - I want to further my education, but I have
no patience left for the Mr. P***'s of the world.
"I hope someone starts an Internet college with a good astronomy
program, and soon!"
...Looking Wolf
Lee S. Billings
In article <61j8p8$8...@faile.nidlink.com>, looki...@spontz.com
says...
>"Something similar happened when I was required to write a brief essay
>about my feelings about the Challenger disaster. My failing grade was
>for two reasons: first, I wrote eight pages instead of one, and
second,
>I wept for the space program, and mankind in general, rather than
>specifically for Ms. McAuliffe. This is not to say that I glossed
over
>her death, or those of the rest of the Challenger crew, but I painted
it
>as the noble death of the explorer rather than the tragic death of a
>schoolteacher caught up in circumstances she could not possibly
>understand."
Try, "circumstances your groundhog English teacher couldn't possibly
understand" and I think you'll be closer.
My ex had a similar problem with one of his English teachers in high
school. He believes it to have been the result of female chauvinism,
since this teacher had a pattern of putting the boys on the bottom of
the double standard. At any rate, he got back one paper with a D- grade
and just *covered* with red ink corrections, and after a few minutes of
checking them over, noticed that about 2/3 of the "errors" were
specious.
Well, he had an ace in the hole -- a father who taught *college*
English. He took the paper to his dad and said, "I don't think this is
a fair grade. Would you please look at it and see what you think?"
Wayne read about 3 paragraphs and steam started coming out of his ears.
The next morning Tom, sitting in homeroom, heard the announcement over
the PA: "Would Mrs. X please come to the principal's office?" The paper
came back re-graded A-. Wayne is a real easy-going guy, but you *don't*
want to give him cause to get riled!
Celine
(who misses her ex-in-laws more than she does her ex)