Understanding Patriotism
jennifer...@hotmail.com
country", except in the sense that I live there. And where I live is
largely an accident of fate. I can change that, and will, if I find a
need. That's not what people mean when they say "my country" in the
patriotic sense, I gather.
I understand the attachment of memory. I didn't want to move when I
was sixteen because I had so many memories that were associated with
my bedroom. I got over that...memories aren't physical.
But I gather that memory plays a part in patriotism.
That's about all I understand about patriotism. Can someone, clearly,
honestly, and as simply as possible, explain it to me?
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.cafeshops.com/rosesoup
Email me at jennifer_junipurr at yahoo dot com
The TheatrElf
> I don't understand patriotism. I don't understand the
> concept of "my country", except in the sense that I live
> there. And where I live is largely an accident of fate. I
> can change that, and will, if I find a need. That's not
> what people mean when they say "my country" in the
> patriotic sense, I gather.
>
> I understand the attachment of memory. I didn't want to
> move when I was sixteen because I had so many memories that
> were associated with my bedroom. I got over that...memories
> aren't physical. But I gather that memory plays a part in
> patriotism.
>
> That's about all I understand about patriotism. Can
> someone, clearly, honestly, and as simply as possible,
> explain it to me?
patriotism
Function: noun
: love for or devotion to one's country
Why should one feel a level of devotion to the land they
happen to live? After all, you did not choose the land, you
just happen to be here.
IN most places, you don't have the freedom to ask this
question: you support your country in every way or face
punishment.
What an amazing thing, to question, to be able to doubt, your
very allegiance or the value of your citizenship.
I'm fortunate that I know people who struggled to get here.
Their struggles are not new: they come here for the same
reasons my ancestors, and probably yours, did.
To have the freedom to choose their life: the way they
worship, the way they earn a living, the place they live, and
even to be able to choose their leaders, and to be able to
tell their leaders what direction they want us to go.
Here are just a few of the stories of people I know; these
stories help me to understand how precious our country truly
is:
John was born in Ukraine, and drafted into the Red Army at age
14 to fight the Nazis. The march started in his village, and
it started with them burning the village to the ground. They
proceeded to destroy everything between them and Berlin. This
was the "scorched earth" policy: the soldiers knew there was
nothing behind them to run back to, and the Nazis gained no
resources by pushing them back.
So there he is, 15 years old in the wreckage of Berlin at the
end of the War, and he knows there is nothing to go home to.
So he joined the Foreign Legion. There, he learned a trade as
he fought for whoever. At the end of his stint, he had enough
money for passage to the US and skill as a mason. He arrived
unable to speak English, and got a job on an assembly line.
In a year he was running the line.
He married and brought his mother and brother over. He
started his own business, and bought houses and cars, raised a
family.
Paul left Hungary at the age of sixteen, smuggling himself out
from behind the Iron Curtain. He wanted more than a life in
the fields. He wound up in Paris, started dancing, worked in
the Lido, and met his wife. They moved to the US, where they
pursue their career and raise their children. He told me of
his return to his village, and how he wanted to send power
tools to his father, but they still do not have electricity.
My grandmother offered shelter to a Jordanian woman who left
to avoid persecution because she was an artist. As a gift,
she gave my grandmother one of her paintings; a woman cooking
dinner over an open fire.
And of course, I cannot begin to relate the stories of all the
Cubans and Haitians and other Latin Americans I've met here in
Miami.
It's easy to take our lives here for granted; after all, we've
always had luxuries. They are so common we feel that we are
poor if we do not have a color television, or a car with air
conditioning, or a dishwasher. But in much of the world, they
cannot imagine indoor plumbing, let alone clear, pure water,
or hot water on demand. I have seen the poorest of people in
this country, and the most destitute had advantages that
people in the third world cannot imagine.
Take a look at what is happening in South America, the
Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East; it's not just that they
are poor. It's that they do not have the choices we do.
My mother knows a woman who fled Pakistan because she loved a
man other than the one her family had arranged for her to
marry. She can never return: she's under a death sentence
there.
All I can tell you is study everywhere else. Then look around
you. And if you still do not understand patriotism, at the
very least you might appreciate that you don't have to feel it
or believe in it here.
We live in a country where someone can literally grow from
dirt-poor farmhand to US Senator, rise from homelessness on
the streets to multi-billionaire. These things have actually
happened. And they happen more often than you think, but more
here than anywhere else in the world.
--
:-( Xjahn
:-) The TheatrElf
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
The rarity of genuine feeling in human society sometimes makes
me stop in the street to watch a dog gnawing a bone.
Dan Goodman
news:g7iia01d15ss9ogvm...@4ax.com:
> I don't understand patriotism. I don't understand the concept of "my
> country", except in the sense that I live there. And where I live is
> largely an accident of fate. I can change that, and will, if I find a
> need.
That's what I thought about myself. Then I took my first trip out of the
US. ("My" first trip: I'd been in Canada as a child, but it was my
parents' trip.) And I realized how much I was an American, culturally.
And then I had my first encounter with British bureaucracy. I stopped
thinking that perhaps it would've been better if the colonies hadn't
revolted.
A trip to Canada a couple of years later made me even more aware of how
much I was an American.
Note that my brand of patriotism is "My country, right or wrong. Right,
I'll defend her. Wrong, I'll correct her. But my country, right or
wrong."
--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Engr Bohn
Hail, Jerry Hollombe! We who are about to post salute you.
> Few Yanks realize the extent to which Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker" books
> are based in reality. E.g., "telephone sanitizer" is a real job
> description and, more to the point, Vogons are simply typical British
> bureaucrats dressed up in "alien" costumes.
"An Airman who used to work for me always reminded me of the telephone
sanitizers from Hitchhikers -- whenever she took shift, right after
changeover, she'd spray Lysol on the handsets of every phone at her
console. I saw it as a harmless quirk...
"Then one time, a 48-hour bug went around the Command Post -- it was mild
enough, mainly caused the sniffles. By the end of the week, everyone had
caught it. Except her."
Take care,
cb
--
Christopher A. Bohn ____________|____________
http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/ ' ** ** " (o) " ** ** '
"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"
- Appius Claudius (the Blind), Roman Senate
----------------------------------------------------
My 2004 "world tour" of Columbus, Ohio, ROTC units
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~bohn/moph-awards.html
----------------------------------------------------
Harry Payne
>Note that my brand of patriotism is "My country, right or wrong. Right,
>I'll defend her. Wrong, I'll correct her. But my country, right or
>wrong."
>
My country, right or wrong: if right, to keep it right: if wrong, to set
it right.
Alas, most people, some of them conveniently, forget the last two
thirds.
--
Harry
"We are less interested in actions than in attitudes."
- The Nightwatch, Babylon 5.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>patriotism
>Function: noun
>: love for or devotion to one's country
>
>Why should one feel a level of devotion to the land they
>happen to live? After all, you did not choose the land, you
>just happen to be here.
>
>IN most places, you don't have the freedom to ask this
>question: you support your country in every way or face
>punishment.
>
>What an amazing thing, to question, to be able to doubt, your
>very allegiance or the value of your citizenship.
>
>I'm fortunate that I know people who struggled to get here.
>Their struggles are not new: they come here for the same
>reasons my ancestors, and probably yours, did.
>
>To have the freedom to choose their life: the way they
>worship, the way they earn a living, the place they live, and
>even to be able to choose their leaders, and to be able to
>tell their leaders what direction they want us to go.
>
>All I can tell you is study everywhere else. Then look around
>you. And if you still do not understand patriotism, at the
>very least you might appreciate that you don't have to feel it
>or believe in it here.
>
>We live in a country where someone can literally grow from
>dirt-poor farmhand to US Senator, rise from homelessness on
>the streets to multi-billionaire. These things have actually
>happened. And they happen more often than you think, but more
>here than anywhere else in the world.
But is this not true of most of the western world (as it's commonly
called)? Canada? Britain? Australia? Perhaps it happens less often
there, perhaps not, I don't know, but I gather that it does.
It seems to me that these things are ideas that are not tied or unique
to any one place or people. Perhaps they once were, and one can always
give a nod to those who did a thing first, but it's hardly the sort of
thing to inspire one to fever-pitch dedication.
It's not that I question that I'm fortunate to live where I do, the
way the world is now. It's not that I don't appreciate the freedom I
have, that I believe the whole world should have. It's just that, as I
understand it, that freedom is out there, in other countries, too. So
I'm back again to...what is it that is truly, currently and ongoingly
unique about any one country (not just the US, ANY country) that
should inspire this devotion?
I believe in and support the ideas you mention. I just don't see that
they are or should be unique to one country.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>That's what I thought about myself. Then I took my first trip out of the
>US. ("My" first trip: I'd been in Canada as a child, but it was my
>parents' trip.) And I realized how much I was an American, culturally.
>
>And then I had my first encounter with British bureaucracy. I stopped
>thinking that perhaps it would've been better if the colonies hadn't
>revolted.
>
>A trip to Canada a couple of years later made me even more aware of how
>much I was an American.
>
>Note that my brand of patriotism is "My country, right or wrong. Right,
>I'll defend her. Wrong, I'll correct her. But my country, right or
>wrong."
*nod* That's the only kind of patriotism I'm really talking about. The
other kind, I call nationalism (or, in some cases, just plain
ignorance.)
If the country in which I live became a bad or dangerous place to live
and there was a place out there that hadn't, you bet I'd be headed
there. Why not? I mean, really, why not? Doesn't it make sense? I'm
not saying I wouldn't try to help people. I try to help people no
matter where they come from.
Isn't that what people who come to the US and other countries from
places like Mexico and the Middle East are doing? Are they abandoning
their countries? Should they be looked down upon for seeking a better
life for themselves and their families, in whatever way they can? What
about people from countries that aren't in deep trouble who leave for
another one? What is patriotism and how does one fail in it?
I've been to Canada. It seems an awful lot like here, with some
different Big Issues, but others the same. The taxes are awful, but,
then, there is "free" healthcare. It seemed a bit cleaner than the US.
I haven't lived there, but I didn't get the impression from my
Canadian friends that they were feeling any more oppressed or without
opportunity than I do.
So, what, exactly, makes any (not just the US) country something I
should feel this specific love for/devotion to?
There are people in this newsgroup from all over the world. Many of
them are patriotic. If one is patriotic, one feels (as I understand) a
love and loyalty/devotion to one's country that one does NOT feel for
other countries. I just don't get it. *baffled waving of hands*
I want to, I really do. It's seems such a human thing, and I don't
enjoy being the odd person out. Nor do I like feeling like I'm missing
some important thing.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<jholl...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I used to do office work through a temp agency in London. Most places
>I worked, once a day, someone would come around with a rag, a spray
>bottle of disinfectant and a weight (to put on the phones' cradles when
>the handsets were being cleaned) and diligently wipe down every
>telephony instrument in the office, including the switchboard. That
>was their job, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
There are plenty of jobs in the US that are just as menial, just as
dull, and, quite possibly, less useful. This is something I can see
someone using as a reason to be patriotic about Britain as part of an
inspirational speech. ("We are a country that understands the
importance of details. We take CARE of each other here, in every way
imaginable...")
I can fake patriotism, I understand how it works. But I don't
understand how one can seriously, genuinely, feel a particular love
for/devotion to one country over all the others, even the ones that
are basically equivalent in things like freedom, etc, whether the
country is Britain or the US or any other one, let alone over things
like family, friends, etc. (I'm not sacrificing someone I love for ANY
country. For ideas/values, perhaps, but NOT for a country.)
Maybe I need to understand what a country is, the fullness of what it
means to be a country? I don't know. :\
C. Rance Fawbush
> I can fake patriotism, I understand how it works. But I don't
> understand how one can seriously, genuinely, feel a particular love
> for/devotion to one country over all the others, even the ones that
> are basically equivalent in things like freedom, etc, whether the
> country is Britain or the US or any other one, let alone over things
> like family, friends, etc. (I'm not sacrificing someone I love for ANY
> country. For ideas/values, perhaps, but NOT for a country.)
Perhaps this feeling is stronger in those who are tied to the land. If your
family has lived in the same area or even on the same land for generations,
and your land is what keeps you alive, you develop a very special bond for
that place. Not that long ago, the majority of Americans grew up on family
farms, and depended on that farm to stay alive.
If lots of people share this bond with the land, then it can become a common
bond with the entire area, and by extension, the entire country. Nowadays
people move multiple times, most of us are not farmers, and we don't feel as
much attachment to one particular place; we mostly don't have that deep bond
with our land.
And to some people, their country is an embodiment of their ideals, in whole
or in part, and therefore worth that special loyalty.
Just my two cents' worth, and I'm sure there are many other reasons and
factors for patriotism.
--
C. Rance Fawbush
Hate is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.
John Vinson
>That's about all I understand about patriotism. Can someone, clearly,
>honestly, and as simply as possible, explain it to me?
I'm currently reading _Janus_ by Arthur Koestler. He's an exponent of
"Heirarchy Theory" - which views human interactions in terms of
"holons" and "partons"; each person is a "holon" - a complete,
independent entity - but is also a "parton", a component of a society
which is another level of "holon".
There's an instinctive tendency for members of a society to protect
the society, as a holon. Koestler points out that wars are not fought
between individuals - wars are fought between societies; the
individuals in those societies submerge their own personal welfare in
defense of the (perceived) threat to their society as a whole. This
often involves propaganda and lies to dehumanize the enemy and to
magnify the threat, but it is working off what seems to be a very real
instinctive tendency.
John the Wysard jvinson *at* WysardOfInfo *dot* com
The TheatrElf
So? There are patriotic britons, patriotic canadians and
patriotic australians. And there are patriotic north Koreans,
and Iranians, and Libyans.
>
> It seems to me that these things are ideas that are not
> tied or unique to any one place or people. Perhaps they
> once were, and one can always give a nod to those who did a
> thing first, but it's hardly the sort of thing to inspire
> one to fever-pitch dedication.
And who says patriotism has to be fever-pitch? I think you're
confusing patriotism with fanatic nationalism.
>
> It's not that I question that I'm fortunate to live where I
> do, the way the world is now. It's not that I don't
> appreciate the freedom I have, that I believe the whole
> world should have. It's just that, as I understand it, that
> freedom is out there, in other countries, too.
Much of the world does not enjoy very much freedom at all. So
far, you've listed three other countries. But there are
hundreds of countries out there.
> So I'm back
> again to...what is it that is truly, currently and
> ongoingly unique about any one country (not just the US,
> ANY country) that should inspire this devotion?
>
> I believe in and support the ideas you mention. I just
> don't see that they are or should be unique to one country.
>
No one says they are or should be.
Perhaps it would help if you explained what you percieve
patriotism to be, instead of asking us to explain why
patriotism is a good thing.
--
:-( Xjahn
:-) The TheatrElf
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep.
The TheatrElf
> If the country in which I live became a bad or dangerous
> place to live and there was a place out there that hadn't,
> you bet I'd be headed there. Why not? I mean, really, why
> not? Doesn't it make sense? I'm not saying I wouldn't try
> to help people. I try to help people no matter where they
> come from. Isn't that what people who come to the US and
> other countries from places like Mexico and the Middle East
> are doing? Are they abandoning their countries?
That depends.
Today, many people come to the US to make their fortunes, then
they go home. This is a change from the past when in fact
immigrants abandoned their country.
Me, I think that our country as set high ideals for itself,
and sometimes fails to meet them. As a patriot, I strive to
help realize those ideals; the basic freedoms laid out in our
Bill of Rights.
This does not mean that every patriotic citizen shares the
same vision or goals. Kris Overstreet probably doesn't think
I have as much regard for rights as he does. I think his
views on those rights are distorted. We are both patriots,
however, because we both struggle to make our country a better
place.
Patriotism isn't about waving flags or marching in parades.
It's about caring about the place you live and the people in
it. Picking up litter is a far more patriotic act than
shouting epithets.
--
:-( Xjahn
:-) The TheatrElf
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Drawing on my fine command of language, I said nothing.
The Yeoman
> So, what, exactly, makes any (not just the US) country something I
> should feel this specific love for/devotion to?
> There are people in this newsgroup from all over the world. Many of
> them are patriotic. If one is patriotic, one feels (as I understand) a
> love and loyalty/devotion to one's country that one does NOT feel for
> other countries. I just don't get it. *baffled waving of hands*
>
> I want to, I really do. It's seems such a human thing, and I don't
> enjoy being the odd person out. Nor do I like feeling like I'm missing
> some important thing.
>
I think the problem is that you're asking the wrong question. If
you're asking what "Patriotism" is, then, quite simply, it's the love
of one's country. End of story.
If you're asking why we, that is, those of us on alt.callahans each
love our respective countries, then you're going to get different
answers, as each of us is going to have different reasons why we feel
any love for the place we live in.
You seem to be asking two questions, though, and I'll try to give an
answer to both of them. First, you seem to be asking why I don't feel
devotion to another country. Unfortunately, the answer is probably
going to seem very trite: Because (in my case), the U.S. is my home.
Other countries are not. Compare it to your house/apartment/whatever.
If your house is dirty, you'll straighten it. If it needs to be
redecorated, painted, or whatever, you'll do those things. Why?
Because it's your home. You live there, and you feel a certain love
and devotion to it that makes you willing to invest time and money
into it.
If, however, you came over to my apartment, and it needed to be
cleaned, redecorated, etc, I doubt you'd pick up a broom, or a
paintbrush and just start doing it. You might help me, if I asked you
to, but you wouldn't feel the same devotion or love for it that would
cause you to just pick up and do it. Why? Because it's not *your*
home, and you don't feel the same devotion to it that I do.
Now, apply that on a national scale. The U.S. is my home. I'm
willing to put time and effort into improving it. I've volunteered 8
years of my life to making sure it's safe. I vote in national
elections (as soon as I get registered in this state).
Japan however, is not my home. I am not willing to volunteer 8 years
of my life into making sure it's safe, nor am I about to register to
vote there. If they were attacked and they asked our help to defend
them, I'd have no problem doing so, but I'm not going to volunteer
myself just for the hell of it.
Your second question seems to be "Why don't I (Jennifer) feel the same
devotion to the U.S. or any other country?" To be honest, I've no
idea. I'm not you. It could be that you are patriotic and just don't
realize it. I'm sure when you look at your house/apt/whatever, you
don't get all teary eyed, get a lump in your throat, or have a desire
to march around singing songs in praise of where you live. However,
if there was a hole in the wall, you'd probably get it patched. If
you spilled something on the floor, you'd likely clean it up, and if
it needed a fresh coat of paint, you'd likely grab a paintbrush.
Here's my question to you: Do you consider the U.S. your 'home' (as
opposed to just the place where you live)? If so, then I'd say you're
patriotic (even if you don't sing the Star Spangled Banner in the
shower). If you don't consider it home, is there anywhere else that
you do consider home? (It's been known to happen. Even though I've
never lived there, I consider Manhattan home. An no, I'm not about to
suggest you pack up and leave for that place. As long as you're doing
nothing to harm the U.S., you're more than welcome here, IMO).
I hope this helps somewhat.
The Yeoman
jennifer...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>So? There are patriotic britons, patriotic canadians and
>patriotic australians. And there are patriotic north Koreans,
>and Iranians, and Libyans.
>
about patriotism, period. And one of the things I am saying is, yes,
there are countries where I would not have the freedoms I have in the
country I am currently in. There are also countries in which I would,
to all intents and purposes. So when you hold up X thing as a reason
to be patriotic, it doesn't work if it applies elsewhere, to my mind.
(I said)
> It seems to me that these things are ideas that are not
> tied or unique to any one place or people. Perhaps they
> once were, and one can always give a nod to those who did a
> thing first, but it's hardly the sort of thing to inspire
> one to fever-pitch dedication.
(You said)
>And who says patriotism has to be fever-pitch? I think you're
>confusing patriotism with fanatic nationalism.
>
That was a bit of snottiness on my part, thank you for catching it.
What I intended to say was that being the first to do a thing does not
inspire in me love and dedication.
If you've read the rest of my responses to others and still think I
don't understand fully or correctly the concept of patriotism, I hope
you will try to explain it to me. That's what I started this thread
for.
>>
>> It's not that I question that I'm fortunate to live where I
>> do, the way the world is now. It's not that I don't
>> appreciate the freedom I have, that I believe the whole
>> world should have. It's just that, as I understand it, that
>> freedom is out there, in other countries, too.
>
>Much of the world does not enjoy very much freedom at all. So
>far, you've listed three other countries. But there are
>hundreds of countries out there.
>
Right. But why should I feel any more devotion to or love for one
country than another *when they do share these freedoms*?
>> So I'm back
>> again to...what is it that is truly, currently and
>> ongoingly unique about any one country (not just the US,
>> ANY country) that should inspire this devotion?
>>
>> I believe in and support the ideas you mention. I just
>> don't see that they are or should be unique to one country.
>>
>No one says they are or should be.
>
I'm sorry, I understood that those were the reasons you were giving as
to why one should be patriotic.
>Perhaps it would help if you explained what you percieve
>patriotism to be, instead of asking us to explain why
>patriotism is a good thing.
I'm not just asking you to explain why it is a good thing, I'm asking
you to explain it, period. To me, it seems a largely irrational and
rather weird thing. Patriotism, as you yourself posted, is "love for
or devotion to one's country". Country, to me, means both physical
location (the US takes up X amount of land, which has X and Y
features) and shared government (all USAns are ruled by the same
government). If I work hard, I can sort of extend the definition to
include culture (but, ime, many countries have multiple cultures, some
of which more more in common with cultures in other countries than
those in their own country.) So. Love and devotion to land largely
escapes me. (Although I do understand the bond of memory, as I
mentioned.) Love and devotion to government...that part puzzles me.
Respect, yes, but love and devotion?
Finally, you seem to be feeling a offended in your post. It may be
that I'm misinterpreting or getting an incorrect impression, but I
want to point out that I'm not here to get into an argument nor is my
intention to cast aspersions on any particular country. I am just
trying to understand a common concept that I don't share and can't
seem to grasp, though I would like to share it, because I don't enjoy
being the odd person out.
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
>Perhaps this feeling is stronger in those who are tied to the land. If your
>family has lived in the same area or even on the same land for generations,
>and your land is what keeps you alive, you develop a very special bond for
>that place. Not that long ago, the majority of Americans grew up on family
>farms, and depended on that farm to stay alive.
>
that's a fundamental aspect of patriotism, it's surely a part of my
problem, since I came some time ago to be able to firmly separate
memories from objects.
>If lots of people share this bond with the land, then it can become a common
>bond with the entire area, and by extension, the entire country. Nowadays
>people move multiple times, most of us are not farmers, and we don't feel as
>much attachment to one particular place; we mostly don't have that deep bond
>with our land.
>
*nod of understanding* That kind of patriotism-inspiration does seem
to be fading.
>And to some people, their country is an embodiment of their ideals, in whole
>or in part, and therefore worth that special loyalty.
>
This part is common nowadays, in my experience. My problem is what
about when there are other countries that are ALSO the embodiment of
one's ideals?
>Just my two cents' worth, and I'm sure there are many other reasons and
>factors for patriotism.
Thanks for sharing those. :)
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
>I'm currently reading _Janus_ by Arthur Koestler. He's an exponent of
>"Heirarchy Theory" - which views human interactions in terms of
>"holons" and "partons"; each person is a "holon" - a complete,
>independent entity - but is also a "parton", a component of a society
>which is another level of "holon".
>
>There's an instinctive tendency for members of a society to protect
>the society, as a holon. Koestler points out that wars are not fought
>between individuals - wars are fought between societies; the
>individuals in those societies submerge their own personal welfare in
>defense of the (perceived) threat to their society as a whole. This
>often involves propaganda and lies to dehumanize the enemy and to
>magnify the threat, but it is working off what seems to be a very real
>instinctive tendency.
>
this, "so, society can be a synonym for country" and then I realized
that, to me, it isn't. The most important bits, the shared values and
ideals that are part of myself and (portions of) the country I live in
are shared, as well, by people in other countries.
And that's where it falls down for me. I understand being part of a
society (love those futuristic yet accurate terms "holon" and
"parton"), but, to me, society != country.
Maybe THAT'S the key to my issue.
*nodding* That whole dehumanizing the enemy and magnifying the threat
thing really bugs me. There must be a way for societies to deal with
threats without such tactics. But that's a whole other topic, really.
Thank you, John.
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
jennifer...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>And it came to pass that wrote:
>
>> If the country in which I live became a bad or dangerous
>> place to live and there was a place out there that hadn't,
>> you bet I'd be headed there. Why not? I mean, really, why
>> not? Doesn't it make sense? I'm not saying I wouldn't try
>> to help people. I try to help people no matter where they
>> come from. Isn't that what people who come to the US and
>> other countries from places like Mexico and the Middle East
>> are doing? Are they abandoning their countries?
>
>That depends.
>
>Today, many people come to the US to make their fortunes, then
>they go home. This is a change from the past when in fact
>immigrants abandoned their country.
>
So when they abandon their countries, they aren't patriots?
>Me, I think that our country as set high ideals for itself,
>and sometimes fails to meet them. As a patriot, I strive to
>help realize those ideals; the basic freedoms laid out in our
>Bill of Rights.
>
>This does not mean that every patriotic citizen shares the
>same vision or goals. Kris Overstreet probably doesn't think
>I have as much regard for rights as he does. I think his
>views on those rights are distorted. We are both patriots,
>however, because we both struggle to make our country a better
>place.
>
I work to make my world (which includes the place I live) a better
place. I am not a patriot, I am a person who believes in making the
world a better place.
>Patriotism isn't about waving flags or marching in parades.
>It's about caring about the place you live and the people in
>it. Picking up litter is a far more patriotic act than
>shouting epithets.
But, it seems to me, it IS about those things, which are expressions
of "love for/devotion to one's country", in addition to the picking up
of litter...which isn't necessarily a patriotic act (unless one is
doing is out of love for/devotion to one's country.)
I pick up litter because I think it's a good thing to do. I would do
it in Germany or France or Britain, too. I don't wave flags and I
don't march in (patriotic) parades, because I have no reason to that I
can figure out, though I'd very much like to.
At least I'm starting to get a clue, I think, as to why I have this
problem, thanks to John Vinson's post.
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
sfw
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:02:50 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
>>And to some people, their country is an embodiment of their ideals, in whole
>>or in part, and therefore worth that special loyalty.
>>
>
> This part is common nowadays, in my experience. My problem is what
> about when there are other countries that are ALSO the embodiment of
> one's ideals?
For you, personally, can you define those ideals and list the countries
that you believe embody those ideals?
That would make answering this a bit easier for me.
Sarah
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>I think the problem is that you're asking the wrong question. If
>you're asking what "Patriotism" is, then, quite simply, it's the love
>of one's country. End of story.
>
>If you're asking why we, that is, those of us on alt.callahans each
>love our respective countries, then you're going to get different
>answers, as each of us is going to have different reasons why we feel
>any love for the place we live in.
>
>You seem to be asking two questions, though, and I'll try to give an
>answer to both of them. First, you seem to be asking why I don't feel
>devotion to another country. Unfortunately, the answer is probably
>going to seem very trite: Because (in my case), the U.S. is my home.
>Other countries are not. Compare it to your house/apartment/whatever.
> If your house is dirty, you'll straighten it. If it needs to be
>redecorated, painted, or whatever, you'll do those things. Why?
>Because it's your home. You live there, and you feel a certain love
>and devotion to it that makes you willing to invest time and money
>into it.
>
First, let me say thank you. You have helped me dramatically.
I think you're right about my questions...thank you so much for
breaking it down for me.
I wouldn't call it love and devotion. I respect myself and the people
I live with and therefore keep my home in an acceptable state for us.
I even go so far as to keep it in a pleasing state, because I can
manage it. (I love interior decoration.)
I can see that the terms "love and devotion" are a huge sticking point
for me in this whole issue. I'm not sure how to solve that one, if it
can be solved.
>If, however, you came over to my apartment, and it needed to be
>cleaned, redecorated, etc, I doubt you'd pick up a broom, or a
>paintbrush and just start doing it. You might help me, if I asked you
>to, but you wouldn't feel the same devotion or love for it that would
>cause you to just pick up and do it. Why? Because it's not *your*
>home, and you don't feel the same devotion to it that I do.
>
Actually, I wouldn't do it primarily because it would be rude to do
things in someone else's space without their permission, and my
culture tells me it would be rude to suggest there was something less
than ideal about someone else's residence.
Finally, I wouldn't do it because I, like most people, don't generally
want to exert myself doing unpleasant tasks any more than I must. (No
one else will clean my house. I am not expected to clean other
people's houses.) But, if it wouldn't be hideously rude, I would quite
easily get into decorating someone else's house or other things like
that that I enjoy. (I'm hoping writing all this will give important
views into my thought processes.)
>Now, apply that on a national scale. The U.S. is my home. I'm
>willing to put time and effort into improving it. I've volunteered 8
>years of my life to making sure it's safe. I vote in national
>elections (as soon as I get registered in this state).
>
>Japan however, is not my home. I am not willing to volunteer 8 years
>of my life into making sure it's safe, nor am I about to register to
>vote there. If they were attacked and they asked our help to defend
>them, I'd have no problem doing so, but I'm not going to volunteer
>myself just for the hell of it.
>
I only relate to that a little...I'd be quite happy to vote in Japan,
assuming I get to continue voting here (where I live, and where,
therefore, the government affects me most directly.)
I'd be interested in keeping everybody safe, not just my home.
>Your second question seems to be "Why don't I (Jennifer) feel the same
>devotion to the U.S. or any other country?" To be honest, I've no
>idea. I'm not you. It could be that you are patriotic and just don't
>realize it. I'm sure when you look at your house/apt/whatever, you
>don't get all teary eyed, get a lump in your throat, or have a desire
>to march around singing songs in praise of where you live. However,
>if there was a hole in the wall, you'd probably get it patched. If
>you spilled something on the floor, you'd likely clean it up, and if
>it needed a fresh coat of paint, you'd likely grab a paintbrush.
>
Excuse my giggling at that image, which brought a bright spot to my
day. :)
But, yes, I fix what needs fixing, I clean up, etc, but not out of
love or devotion so much as out of practicality and responsibility. I
know that not doing those things will result in an intolerable (and
even unsafe) environment for myself and those who live with me.
So what does that say about me?
>Here's my question to you: Do you consider the U.S. your 'home' (as
>opposed to just the place where you live)? If so, then I'd say you're
>patriotic (even if you don't sing the Star Spangled Banner in the
>shower). If you don't consider it home, is there anywhere else that
>you do consider home? (It's been known to happen. Even though I've
>never lived there, I consider Manhattan home. An no, I'm not about to
>suggest you pack up and leave for that place. As long as you're doing
>nothing to harm the U.S., you're more than welcome here, IMO).
>
Well, I consider it a place where I live (and therefore a place
towards which I have certain obligations and responsibilities), but I
consider my house to be a place where I live, too.
Perhaps I have just rather-more-than-usually come to understand the
concept of "home is where the heart is"?
I mean, this place I live in is my home because it is where the beings
I love, my family, are. (I still think of the place where my parents
live as home, too. One can have more than one home, I think.)
>I hope this helps somewhat.
>
>The Yeoman
It does help tremendously, bringing the focus in on the real issue.
Thank you so much, and I hope you have further input! :)
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>For you, personally, can you define those ideals and list the countries
>that you believe embody those ideals?
>
>That would make answering this a bit easier for me.
>
>Sarah
Well, I'm wary of doing so, because I gather your intention is to see
if there is, in fact, anything unique to a particular country in it,
and I fear that it may end up getting us off the issue and onto a
different thread entirely, but, hey, if there IS something, well, that
would be helpful, so...
I would say the one of the most important things to me is responsible
individual freedom. I want to live in a place where I am free to be
myself (as long as I harm no one else) without fear of persecution or
prosecution, and so is everyone else.
I want to live in a place where a major goal of the society is to see
that everyone's basic needs are met. To me, that includes education
and healthcare as well as public safety, sanitation, etc. This is the
other most important thing.
I want to live in a place in which it is not wrong to be different,
nor is wrong to not be different.
Ideally, I want to live in a place that does not wage war. (I am a
long-time pacifist, and support the Peace Force.
(http://www.nonviolentpeaceforce.org/)) (As far as I know, this would
actually be a problem with all the coutries of the world, except
perhaps Switzerland?)
That pretty much covers it, with a broad brush. I may well be leaving
things out, and reserve the right to add stuff later, should I see the
need.
I don't know that there is a country that successfully embodies these
things. The ones that seem closest would include the US, Britain,
Canada, and Australia, from what I know of them.
Kris Overstreet
<jvinson@STOP_SPAM.WysardOfInfo.com> wrote:
>I'm currently reading _Janus_ by Arthur Koestler. He's an exponent of
>"Heirarchy Theory" - which views human interactions in terms of
>"holons" and "partons"; each person is a "holon" - a complete,
>independent entity - but is also a "parton", a component of a society
>which is another level of "holon".
Well, cross him off -my- reading list, then.
>There's an instinctive tendency for members of a society to protect
>the society, as a holon. Koestler points out that wars are not fought
>between individuals - wars are fought between societies; the
>individuals in those societies submerge their own personal welfare in
>defense of the (perceived) threat to their society as a whole.
Bullshit. Wars began not as societal entities clashing, but as kings
clashing using their power and wealth to assemble large groups to
fight by proxy. Even today, in the age of nationalism and
postnationalism, wars are fought by only two kinds of army: volunteer
armies dedicated to defending their homes, rights, ideals or religion;
and draftee armies fighting on behalf of a warlord who wants to
increase his own power. At best society is but a mask for true
motivations.
Redneck
sfw
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 16:09:57 -0400, sfw <s...@dork.com> wrote:
>
>>For you, personally, can you define those ideals and list the countries
>>that you believe embody those ideals?
>>
>>That would make answering this a bit easier for me.
> Well, I'm wary of doing so, because I gather your intention is to see
> if there is, in fact, anything unique to a particular country in it,
> and I fear that it may end up getting us off the issue and onto a
> different thread entirely, but, hey, if there IS something, well, that
> would be helpful, so...
I promise, it's not intended as a trap. I'm trying to see if there is
anything on your list of ideals that is necessarily associated with a
(generic)country/society/area or if what you see as ideal is totally
seperated from place.
I shall ponder this and return to it later.
Thanks.
Sarah
Dan Goodman
news:Xns94ED8B2...@attbi.com:
> Today, many people come to the US to make their fortunes, then
> they go home. This is a change from the past when in fact
> immigrants abandoned their country.
>
Actually, a fair number of immigrants came to the US with the intention
of working for a while and then returning home. Some did; some ended up
staying; some stayed till they retired, then went home to places where
their pensions and Social Security went a whole lot farther.
And many came here not to make their fortunes, but to be able to make a
living at all. The
first big wave of Irish immigrants included many who literally made the
trip so they could earn enough to eat -- never mind luxuries like clothes
suitable for church. Less drastically, around the beginning of the 20th
century it was a lot easier to be a Scandinavian farmer in the Plains
States than in Scandinavia. In places where the oldest son inherited the
land, there wasn't any land for the younger sons. Where the land was
divided, there came a point at which nobody would get enough land to live
on.
The TheatrElf
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 17:39:47 GMT, The TheatrElf
> <xj...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>And it came to pass that wrote:
>>
>>> If the country in which I live became a bad or dangerous
>>> place to live and there was a place out there that
>>> hadn't, you bet I'd be headed there. Why not? I mean,
>>> really, why not? Doesn't it make sense? I'm not saying I
>>> wouldn't try to help people. I try to help people no
>>> matter where they come from. Isn't that what people who
>>> come to the US and other countries from places like
>>> Mexico and the Middle East are doing? Are they abandoning
>>> their countries?
>>
>>That depends.
>>
>>Today, many people come to the US to make their fortunes,
>>then they go home. This is a change from the past when in
>>fact immigrants abandoned their country.
>>
> So when they abandon their countries, they aren't patriots?
Of course not: you don't show love and devotion by abandoning
a thing.
>
>>Me, I think that our country as set high ideals for itself,
>>and sometimes fails to meet them. As a patriot, I strive
>>to help realize those ideals; the basic freedoms laid out
>>in our Bill of Rights.
>>
>>This does not mean that every patriotic citizen shares the
>>same vision or goals. Kris Overstreet probably doesn't
>>think I have as much regard for rights as he does. I think
>>his views on those rights are distorted. We are both
>>patriots, however, because we both struggle to make our
>>country a better place.
>>
> I work to make my world (which includes the place I live) a
> better place. I am not a patriot, I am a person who
> believes in making the world a better place.
You're a patriotic Terran, as opposed to a mere patriotic
American.
>
>>Patriotism isn't about waving flags or marching in parades.
>> It's about caring about the place you live and the people
>>in it. Picking up litter is a far more patriotic act than
>>shouting epithets.
>
> But, it seems to me, it IS about those things,
Hence your confusion. Those things are not patriotism, they
are a way to express patriotism.
> which are
> expressions of "love for/devotion to one's country", in
> addition to the picking up of litter...which isn't
> necessarily a patriotic act (unless one is doing is out of
> love for/devotion to one's country.)
And why else would you do it?
>
> I pick up litter because I think it's a good thing to do.
But why is it a good thing to do?
>
> would do it in Germany or France or Britain, too. I don't
> wave flags and I don't march in (patriotic) parades,
> because I have no reason to that I can figure out, though
> I'd very much like to.
>
I think you're defining patriotism too narrowly. Some of us
feel love and devotion to our planet, and there is no reason
that that is not patriotic.
> At least I'm starting to get a clue, I think, as to why I
> have this problem, thanks to John Vinson's post.
>
--
:-( Xjahn
:-) The TheatrElf
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it.
sparrowhawk
<jennifer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g0ska05jfgmu8p088...@4ax.com...
<snip>
> Ideally, I want to live in a place that does not wage war. (I am a
> long-time pacifist, and support the Peace Force.
> (http://www.nonviolentpeaceforce.org/)) (As far as I know, this would
> actually be a problem with all the coutries of the world, except
> perhaps Switzerland?)
>
Nope, not Switzerland. It's one of the most militarized countries I've been
to (granted, I'm not all that well traveled). I was there for a month a
couple of years ago, and EVERYTIME I went to the train station (and I did
all my traveling by train), there was military equipment at the station
and/or military personnel on the train. And a Swiss friend told me that all
adult males between certain ages must have a firearm, and practice at a
firing range a certain number of times a year. Switzerland is NOT pacifist;
it is neutral, and that is a huge difference.
As for your original question, what about the aspect of familiarity? I
haven't thought this all the way through yet, but I was thinking that one of
the reasons we love our respective countries may be that they are familiar
to us. We know (or are at least confident) how things are done, what to do
in a given situation, etc. When we are in a foreign country, things are
different. And it is often the small changes that are the most
disconcerting. You expect the major differences, but not the small ones.
Example: I remember thinking the Swiss currency was illogical since the 50
cent piece was quite a bit small that the 5 cent piece, and that our
currency system was obviously better. No, ours isn't better, it's just
different and more familiar to me.
This may be an unconscious reaction, but it may be that a series of small
feelings that THEIR way is different (and therefore wrong) leads to a
feeling that OUR way is much superior, which gives you a warm fuzzy feeling
about your country, which you identify as patriotism.
And I may be completely off the wall!
K.
---
Statistically speaking, humans,
on average, have fewer than two legs.
sfw
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 16:09:57 -0400, sfw <s...@dork.com> wrote:
>
>>For you, personally, can you define those ideals and list the countries
>>that you believe embody those ideals?
>>
>>That would make answering this a bit easier for me.
> Well, I'm wary of doing so, because I gather your intention is to see
> if there is, in fact, anything unique to a particular country in it,
> and I fear that it may end up getting us off the issue and onto a
> different thread entirely, but, hey, if there IS something, well, that
> would be helpful, so...
Ok, as I said before, this was an attempt to look at what you value and
determine if I think that it's place attached or not.
> I would say the one of the most important things to me is responsible
> individual freedom. I want to live in a place where I am free to be
> myself (as long as I harm no one else) without fear of persecution or
> prosecution, and so is everyone else.
Ok, a dream that we are all striving for, and not a reality anywhere.
Definitly better in some places than in others.
> I want to live in a place where a major goal of the society is to see
> that everyone's basic needs are met. To me, that includes education
> and healthcare as well as public safety, sanitation, etc. This is the
> other most important thing.
Hm. So, more socialist than libertarian, but not entirely socialist.
Again, more likely in some places than others.
> I want to live in a place in which it is not wrong to be different,
> nor is wrong to not be different.
Ideally, that would be anywhere. In reality, it's another ideal that no
one has yet truly achieved.
> Ideally, I want to live in a place that does not wage war. (I am a
> long-time pacifist, and support the Peace Force.
> (http://www.nonviolentpeaceforce.org/)) (As far as I know, this would
> actually be a problem with all the coutries of the world, except
> perhaps Switzerland?)
Ideally, that would be anywhere. In reality, it's another ideal that no
one has yet truly achieved.
> That pretty much covers it, with a broad brush. I may well be leaving
> things out, and reserve the right to add stuff later, should I see the
> need.
Ok, but from this I get the general idea.
> I don't know that there is a country that successfully embodies these
> things. The ones that seem closest would include the US, Britain,
> Canada, and Australia, from what I know of them.
Uh, some come closer than others. But in general, I think that you're
seeing it so very differently than I am that I'm not sure I can help
with any of my thoughts.
I am patriotic for a variety reasons, only some of which are listed
above. Yes, I like the ideal that the US is slowly working toward. I
also have a love of place.
But I think the problem may be more in your definition of patriotism
than in your expectations. You seem to be defining it differently than
I do.
So, I shall go ponder on my definition of patriotism before I make
another stab at this. Maybe if I define what I see as patriotism it
will be useful.
Sharah
SHARISEZ
>understand it, that freedom is out there, in other countries, too. So
>I'm back again to...what is it that is truly, currently and ongoingly
>unique about any one country (not just the US, ANY country) that
>should inspire this devotion?
>
>I believe in and support the ideas you mention. I just don't see that
>they are or should be unique to one country
Go, find it. When you can't find what we have here anywhere else, you'll
understand why everyone gets it but you.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
That's what I'm here trying to do, in part.
(Because, as it happens, I do not have the funds I would need to roam
the world myself comparing every country personally.)
Jennifer Junipurr (formerly known as GypsyJen), Debauchee of Dew
Octagon Peg In A Round World
My Journal: jenny_junipurr.livejournal.com
My Store: www.rosesoup.com
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<sparrow...@delete.yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Nope, not Switzerland. It's one of the most militarized countries I've been
>to (granted, I'm not all that well traveled). I was there for a month a
>couple of years ago, and EVERYTIME I went to the train station (and I did
>all my traveling by train), there was military equipment at the station
>and/or military personnel on the train. And a Swiss friend told me that all
>adult males between certain ages must have a firearm, and practice at a
>firing range a certain number of times a year. Switzerland is NOT pacifist;
>it is neutral, and that is a huge difference.
>
question mark. :)
> As for your original question, what about the aspect of familiarity? I
>haven't thought this all the way through yet, but I was thinking that one of
>the reasons we love our respective countries may be that they are familiar
>to us. We know (or are at least confident) how things are done, what to do
>in a given situation, etc. When we are in a foreign country, things are
>different. And it is often the small changes that are the most
>disconcerting. You expect the major differences, but not the small ones.
>
>Example: I remember thinking the Swiss currency was illogical since the 50
>cent piece was quite a bit small that the 5 cent piece, and that our
>currency system was obviously better. No, ours isn't better, it's just
>different and more familiar to me.
>
>This may be an unconscious reaction, but it may be that a series of small
>feelings that THEIR way is different (and therefore wrong) leads to a
>feeling that OUR way is much superior, which gives you a warm fuzzy feeling
>about your country, which you identify as patriotism.
>
>And I may be completely off the wall!
>
>K.
>---
>Statistically speaking, humans,
>on average, have fewer than two legs.
>
Not at all. I think that is an aspect of patriotism for lots of
people. However, it requires, as you note, that one parse "different"
as "wrong", which I do not do, and have not done for so long that it
might as well be forever.
I do appreciate the familiar, but I am also aware that a new place can
become as familiar as the old, sometimes over a long period, sometimes
quite quickly. And, anyway, at best, familiarity inspires a gentle
kind of fondness and, perhaps, nostalgia...which is a far cry from
love and/or devotion.
Thank you. :)
jennifer...@hotmail.com
*snip with much nodding*
>Uh, some come closer than others. But in general, I think that you're
>seeing it so very differently than I am that I'm not sure I can help
>with any of my thoughts.
>
don't know why I am weird like this, and generally would like not to
be so much, and that's why I ask stuff like this, because I'm trying
to find a way that I can somehow, with no falseness, share these
things in common with the rest of humanity.
>I am patriotic for a variety reasons, only some of which are listed
>above. Yes, I like the ideal that the US is slowly working toward. I
>also have a love of place.
>
I think that a lack of love of place, on a country scale (because I do
love my planet, which is excessively beautiful), is a huge part of my
issue, and, from what I can tell, isn't something I can alter in an
honest fashion.
>But I think the problem may be more in your definition of patriotism
>than in your expectations. You seem to be defining it differently than
>I do.
>
How do you define it? I'm going with the definition someone else gave,
which is quite literal, that patriotism is "love of or devotion to
one's country".
>So, I shall go ponder on my definition of patriotism before I make
>another stab at this. Maybe if I define what I see as patriotism it
>will be useful.
>
>Sharah
I will be interested to see what you come up with. Thank you so much
for trying to help me. I hope it benefits you in some way. :)
jennifer...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>Of course not: you don't show love and devotion by abandoning
>a thing.
>
(because, ime, "lack of patriotism" is considered a "bad" thing)
because they are trying to do what is best for themselves and the
people they love.
>> I work to make my world (which includes the place I live) a
>> better place. I am not a patriot, I am a person who
>> believes in making the world a better place.
>
>You're a patriotic Terran, as opposed to a mere patriotic
>American.
>
That is definitely one way to look at it. The Earth is my country.
*nod* Although, you know, if there was another planet with intelligent
people on it, I'd want to help make it a better place, too.
So, in that sense, I'm only a Terran patriot by default...
>
>>
>>>Patriotism isn't about waving flags or marching in parades.
>>> It's about caring about the place you live and the people
>>>in it. Picking up litter is a far more patriotic act than
>>>shouting epithets.
>>
>> But, it seems to me, it IS about those things,
>
>Hence your confusion. Those things are not patriotism, they
>are a way to express patriotism.
>
Which I immediately said:
>> which are
>> expressions of "love for/devotion to one's country", in
>> addition to the picking up of litter...which isn't
>> necessarily a patriotic act (unless one is doing is out of
>> love for/devotion to one's country.)
>
>And why else would you do it?
>
>>
>> I pick up litter because I think it's a good thing to do.
>
>But why is it a good thing to do?
>
It is a good thing to do because to throw waste about in an
uncontrolled manner will result (eventually) in an extremely
inhospitable environment. It's just a practical thing to do.
>> would do it in Germany or France or Britain, too. I don't
>> wave flags and I don't march in (patriotic) parades,
>> because I have no reason to that I can figure out, though
>> I'd very much like to.
>>
>
>I think you're defining patriotism too narrowly. Some of us
>feel love and devotion to our planet, and there is no reason
>that that is not patriotic.
>
As long as one accepts that the Earth can be viewed as a country,
that's true. Metaphorically, that's acceptable (as shown above).
Literally, of course, it doesn't currently meet the criteria, to my
knowledge.
I am not saying I don't feel admiration and responsibility towards my
planet (the more I think on it, the more I feel that love is a
stretch), or love for my fellow human beings. I think defining that as
patriotism is a bit of a stretch.
I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't have an ulterior motive
here. I just honestly can't use a word to mean something that, from
all I can see (and I am happy to be shown otherwise), it just simply
doesn't mean, and I am hoping for help so that I can, in some way,
find peace within myself over this issue.
I suppose I can be considered unusually precise. :(
Lee S. Billings
says...
I think that's the point. What *is* it that you think we have here that doesn't
exist in any other country in the world? Because I'm more or less with Jennifer
on this; I can't think of any societal ideal that's important to me that
doesn't happen in other countries at least as much as it does here -- and
sometimes more.
Celine
--
Handmade jewelry at http://www.rubylane.com/shops/starcat
"Only the powers of evil claim that doing good is boring."
-- Diane Duane, _Nightfall at Algemron_
sfw
> I think that's the point. What *is* it that you think we have here that doesn't
> exist in any other country in the world? Because I'm more or less with Jennifer
> on this; I can't think of any societal ideal that's important to me that
> doesn't happen in other countries at least as much as it does here -- and
> sometimes more.
For me, (And I know, it's not me you're addressing above Celine, but
this is a good place to hop back in)some of what we have here that can
be had nowhere else are things and places. Some of what we have here is
history. Some of it - much of it - is our freedom of religion and
freedom of speech.
But I'm still thinking that I am unclear on what Jennifer is asking, or
maybe I'm unclear on what I'm answering, so...
See, I think part of the problem in this question lies in the definition
of patriotism. I see far too many people who think it means supporting
the government, swearing that there is nothing as good as here anywhere
else, waving flags and striking poses in uniforms. In that case, a
question has been asked that defines me as not a patriot, so I shouldn't
be trying to answer it. I think a real patriot is one who works for
good on behalf of the country or society that they live in, showing
caring and thought.
And so... I think we're either not approaching the question from the
same side - not just me and Jennifer, but all of us - or we're working
from different understanding of the same term.
Sarah
sfw
> How do you define it? I'm going with the definition someone else gave,
> which is quite literal, that patriotism is "love of or devotion to
> one's country".
Perhaps specifiying even further - to me, "Country" is not the same as
"government"
Sarah
Jette Goldie
<jennifer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pnnma09ho3qrd078f...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 May 2004 23:38:43 GMT, The TheatrElf <xj...@netscape.net>
> wrote:
> >> I work to make my world (which includes the place I live) a
> >> better place. I am not a patriot, I am a person who
> >> believes in making the world a better place.
> >
> >You're a patriotic Terran, as opposed to a mere patriotic
> >American.
> >
> That is definitely one way to look at it. The Earth is my country.
> *nod* Although, you know, if there was another planet with intelligent
> people on it, I'd want to help make it a better place, too.
> So, in that sense, I'm only a Terran patriot by default...
Which is how most people get to be patriotic <whatevers>
--
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
je...@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>For me, (And I know, it's not me you're addressing above Celine, but
>this is a good place to hop back in)some of what we have here that can
>be had nowhere else are things and places. Some of what we have here is
>history. Some of it - much of it - is our freedom of religion and
>freedom of speech.
>
History is a new angle. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Those freedoms are part of my definition of "responsible individual
freedom" as mentioned in my other post to you, and, as noted, can be
found (in a general sense) in some other countries as well.
>But I'm still thinking that I am unclear on what Jennifer is asking, or
>maybe I'm unclear on what I'm answering, so...
>
*nod* I'm trying to understand why I am not a patriot, specifically,
and why other people are and what the differences between us are that
allow that to be the case. I think.
>See, I think part of the problem in this question lies in the definition
>of patriotism. I see far too many people who think it means supporting
>the government, swearing that there is nothing as good as here anywhere
>else, waving flags and striking poses in uniforms. In that case, a
>question has been asked that defines me as not a patriot, so I shouldn't
>be trying to answer it. I think a real patriot is one who works for
>good on behalf of the country or society that they live in, showing
>caring and thought.
*snip*
No, that's not how I define it, although I do think that things like
waving flags are, at least sometimes, expressions of patriotism.
(Sometimes they're expressions of nationalism, which is different.)
Although it wasn't actually in the definition given, I think "over
other countries" can reasonably be implied after "love of or devotion
to one's country".
The definition you wrote is one I understand, however, what about
someone who feels/is that way about the whole universe, who goes
beyond country? I don't think that person (me) is a patriot. I don't
know that there is a word for that.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>
><jennifer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> That is definitely one way to look at it. The Earth is my country.
>> *nod* Although, you know, if there was another planet with intelligent
>> people on it, I'd want to help make it a better place, too.
>> So, in that sense, I'm only a Terran patriot by default...
>
>
>Which is how most people get to be patriotic <whatevers>
By default, you mean? Most people get to be patriotic whatevers
because they're born in whereever?
But they have other options. I don't, really. (There are the life-less
planets, and I'm all for making them better places, too.)
Frank McCoy
Even so, Patriotism bothers me.
That we think ourselves *better* somehow than those who happen to be
born a few miles North or South of some intangible line; or that our
country and the people in it are better because of the type of
government (or the people IN that government) that we choose.
It strikes me as an insidious form of bigotry.
Bigotry (By *my* definition) is based on prejudice.
Bigots choose to pre-judge a set of people (and specific people IN
that set) based merely on their being in the set.
Thus we get racial prejudice: "Jews are thieves."
Thus we get religious prejudice: "Witches worship the Devil."
AND ... Thus we get one of the commonest prejudices of all,
geographical prejudice:
"An Italian moved to Poland ... And the average IQ of BOTH countries
went up."
"Mexicans are lazy."
"The French are licentious." (Said with a little envy.)
"The Irish are drunks.
Etc.
All BASED on the same idea as "Patriotism", that I'm much *better*
than any of the people in *those* countries, simply because I happen
to be BORN in this one! That makes me smarter, healthier, luckier,
wiser, and all-around BETTER than the best of them, simply by being an
American!
And it's SILLY, if you really examine it; for each and every one of
THOSE countries has the same idea: They're better than WE are, simply
because THEY were born over there.
The idea is basically an upward growth of family > friends > tribe >
people > country; where "ours" and "we" is always better than "theirs"
or "them".
And the worst examples of such are found where there's a slight
justification: The USA, for example, where life is measurably better
than it is for most of the countries in the world; and (at present)
our military power is second-to-none.
That leads to the poorest slob without brains enough to pick his own
nose without directions, *knowing* he's BETTER than the richest prince
in Saudi Arabia ... because he's an AMERICAN! It also leads to
*accepting as right* anything our country does ... Simply because "our
country", America, can do no wrong.
A nice belief; until we get our noses rubbed in our own shit like a
kitten being potty-trained. Even then (because of "Patriotism"), all
too many people will insist that what WE did WASN'T wrong ... Simply
because it was US that did it, not them.
"My country, right or wrong, but my country."
Fuck THAT!
My country, because I happen to be lucky enough to be born there; but
right or wrong? No way!
I don't stand behind my country when it fucks up. I stand up and
SHOUT that it's wrong; and do my damndest to correct it so I'll still
feel it's a good country to live in when all is over.
Now THAT is what I consider a "patriotic duty"; not praising the
country no matter what it does.
And I OWE that very "patriotic duty" to "my country", of fighting to
fix fuckups instead of praising them, just *because* I was lucky
enough to be born and raised here. How else can I repay that debt,
unless I leave the country a better place for my living there than it
would have been without me?
"Standing behind" the country I live in, because of "patriotism", when
it does despicable things, is NOT leaving it a better place, and thus
I would NOT be repaying my debt!
Example:
My mother raised me as best she could; and I owe her a debt of
"loyalty" for that. However, if my mother went out, got drunk, and
killed somebody in a car-accident, then (unlike what SOME people
think) I would NOT be properly repaying her with my loyalty if I wiped
the blood off the car, and repaired the damage, and then lied to the
police about where she was on the night of the accident.
However, many people would do just that. The same people (I ass-u-me)
that say, "MY country, right or wrong, but MY Country!"
Aaahhh! I'm getting angry again.
Somebody pulled my chain.
The soapbox is empty.
NEXT!
--
_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
sfw
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 13:33:06 -0400, sfw <s...@dork.com> wrote:
>>For me, (And I know, it's not me you're addressing above Celine, but
>>this is a good place to hop back in)some of what we have here that can
>>be had nowhere else are things and places. Some of what we have here is
>>history. Some of it - much of it - is our freedom of religion and
>>freedom of speech.
> Well, we've already covered my issues with things and places.
Yeah, and I think that's part of what's blocking me on answering this.
We're different in that way. I love everything that I have seen of the
rest of the world, and want to see much much more of it. But I have a
feeling of connection to many places in the US, and a special feeling of
connection to where I live that is different than the connections I have
to places that I have visited.
> History is a new angle. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
And I think that it applies to both personal history and more general
history.
For example, family history of immigration and my ancestor's feelings of
gratitude for being here tie me to this country. National history of
things that we strive for and things that we do (that I value) also tie
me to this country.
I should also note here that I DO live in DC. This probably affects how
I feel. And no, it actually doesn't make me more government focused. I
think it actually makes me less government focused. Certainly makes me
less governmment friednly! What is does make me is more history focused.
> Those freedoms are part of my definition of "responsible individual
> freedom" as mentioned in my other post to you, and, as noted, can be
> found (in a general sense) in some other countries as well.
Perhaps. I think I disagree there.
> *nod* I'm trying to understand why I am not a patriot, specifically,
> and why other people are and what the differences between us are that
> allow that to be the case. I think.
See, but I'm wondering if you're "not a patriot," as opposed to "not a
nationalist," or "not what they expect a partiot to be."
>>I think a real patriot is one who works for
>>good on behalf of the country or society that they live in, showing
>>caring and thought.
> No, that's not how I define it, although I do think that things like
> waving flags are, at least sometimes, expressions of patriotism.
Certainly, but flag waving is not required. And I prefer to stay away
from flag waving as it makes me feel like people will see the object
(flag) before the ideal. It comes across to me as idolatry in some ways.
> (Sometimes they're expressions of nationalism, which is different.)
Indeed.
> Although it wasn't actually in the definition given, I think "over
> other countries" can reasonably be implied after "love of or devotion
> to one's country".
Perhaps.
> The definition you wrote is one I understand, however, what about
> someone who feels/is that way about the whole universe, who goes
> beyond country? I don't think that person (me) is a patriot. I don't
> know that there is a word for that.
The question may come down to - given a chance to live in some other
country, and not just to live there, but to become a citizen of there,
would you? With no twinges? With no looking back?
Given a chance to stay where you are, would you, even if you had to work
for change? Or would you rather go somewhere else because you think it
is better?
That seems to me to be part of it.
Sarah
Lee S. Billings
says...
Returning the favor -- Frank, your money's no good in here for the rest of the
month. That's the best definition of REAL patriotism I've seen in a long time.
Mike, set the man up!
<drops a stack of SBAs on the bar>
Jette Goldie
<jennifer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cncna0578rgbca7f9...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 17:52:59 GMT, "Jette Goldie"
> <j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
> >
> ><jennifer...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>
> >> That is definitely one way to look at it. The Earth is my country.
> >> *nod* Although, you know, if there was another planet with intelligent
> >> people on it, I'd want to help make it a better place, too.
> >> So, in that sense, I'm only a Terran patriot by default...
> >
> >
> >Which is how most people get to be patriotic <whatevers>
>
> By default, you mean? Most people get to be patriotic whatevers
> because they're born in whereever?
> But they have other options. I don't, really. (There are the life-less
> planets, and I'm all for making them better places, too.)
Yup. You're born somewhere, grow up there, learn to
......well, if not *love* it, then at least like it. It's better
than elsewhere - you know it is.
And you go elsewhere. it's strange there - scenery might
be better, food cheaper, weather warmer - but it's *not
home*. They have strange customs, strange ways of
talking, eat strange things, do strange things. The
people are strange too....... they look just like the folks
back home - but they're not.
That's when you know you love your own country and
just want to go home. (of course if home could have
the cheap food, warm weather, nice scenery, etc
as well as being *home*, that would be perfect <g>)
Kris Overstreet
>I want to live in a place where a major goal of the society is to see
>that everyone's basic needs are met.
I don't, because a direct consequence of this goal is that nobody is
allowed to achieve their -desires.- Anyone with more than they 'need'
gets it taken away so that the society (read: government) can decide
who needs it more (usually, in practice, those in government).
My goal is a society where no one is prohibited or discouraged from
improving their lot in life.
Redneck
Frank McCoy
Well ... Am almost unachievable (But who says we shouldn't set our
sights high?) goal would be a society where people are not only
allowed and encouraged to improve their lots, but where each one truly
has the *opportunity* to do so.
Right now, there isn't a country in the world where this is even close
to being true. ;-{
In Many (most?) countries there just are not enough opportunities to
go around. Yeah, heah, yeah; I know the mantra: "Make your own
opportunity." Sometimes if you stop long enough to try something
different, you starve (and sometimes you starve anyway). Other times,
because of your looks, smell, who you were born-to, religion, or
location, people in your society will just refuse to deal fairly with
you, or, at the very least, always pick somebody more handsome, who
smells better, has a better personality, or "looks better" to them.
That's an almost impossible task to change people so they *don't*
prefer to do business with the better looking guy or the one with the
humongous smile (that may be fake as a three dollar bill).
Also, not all people are good entrepreneurs. Most people aren't great
salesmen. AND the combination of both (needed to start some new
enterprise) is rare indeed. It's well known that even in this country
most new businesses are started by engineering types ... who then get
WAY out of their depth financially or business-wise when the business
turns out to be a big success. So ... Often the engineers hire
business people ... who more-often-than-not STEAL the business right
out from under the engineer, who didn't know what was happening. And
in most of the cases where that doesn't happen, the engineer ends up
SELLING the business (OK, usually at a great profit) to some other
company ... often a competitor who didn't bother to have a good R&D
outfit of their own; and (sometimes) had refused to buy the IDEA from
the engineer when offered, "Because it wasn't invented here!"
These are stereotypes, yes. But they're stereotypical because they DO
happen. I know of several cases; and was part of one myself.
C. Rance Fawbush
> Even so, Patriotism bothers me.
> That we think ourselves *better* somehow than those who happen to be
> born a few miles North or South of some intangible line; or that our
> country and the people in it are better because of the type of
> government (or the people IN that government) that we choose.
Not everyone thinks being patriotic means one's country is better than
others, or that one is better than people in other countries. To me, that
has nothing to do with patriotism.
> It strikes me as an insidious form of bigotry.
> Bigotry (By *my* definition) is based on prejudice.
> Bigots choose to pre-judge a set of people (and specific people IN
> that set) based merely on their being in the set.
>
> Thus we get racial prejudice: "Jews are thieves."
> Thus we get religious prejudice: "Witches worship the Devil."
> AND ... Thus we get one of the commonest prejudices of all,
> geographical prejudice:
> "An Italian moved to Poland ... And the average IQ of BOTH countries
> went up."
> "Mexicans are lazy."
> "The French are licentious." (Said with a little envy.)
> "The Irish are drunks.
> Etc.
>
> All BASED on the same idea as "Patriotism"
I dispute that. The above have nothing in common with patriotism. Many of the
above could be applied to other states in the US. Regionalism or nationalism
is not the same thing as patriotism.
> "My country, right or wrong, but my country."
> Fuck THAT!
> My country, because I happen to be lucky enough to be born there; but
> right or wrong? No way!
> I don't stand behind my country when it fucks up. I stand up and
> SHOUT that it's wrong; and do my damndest to correct it so I'll still
> feel it's a good country to live in when all is over.
>
> Now THAT is what I consider a "patriotic duty"; not praising the
> country no matter what it does.
Bingo.
> Example:
> My mother raised me as best she could; and I owe her a debt of
> "loyalty" for that. However, if my mother went out, got drunk, and
> killed somebody in a car-accident, then (unlike what SOME people
> think) I would NOT be properly repaying her with my loyalty if I wiped
> the blood off the car, and repaired the damage, and then lied to the
> police about where she was on the night of the accident.
>
> However, many people would do just that. The same people (I ass-u-me)
> that say, "MY country, right or wrong, but MY Country!"
Those people don't understand patriotism, they just think they do.
--
C. Rance Fawbush
Hate is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.
Frank McCoy
wrote:
>Regionalism or nationalism
>is not the same thing as patriotism.
Um ... *I* tend to agree with you.
All too many of my neighbors do not.
Many times lately (and even in this group) I've heard words to the
effect that if you aren't 100% behind whatever the country does as a
whole, be it the war in Iraq, renaming french-fries, silliness like
not exporting cryptography, or even Constitutionally-unsound laws like
"The Patriot Act" that undermine the very basis of what makes this
government sound, then, "You r're not properly patriotic!"
To most of the people I know, "Patriotism" *IS* nationalism ... Being
PROUD of your country because it IS your country, not for what it
does, stands-for, or prevents. If you don't support it, good or evil,
then you're not patriotic. ;-{
That this attitude is a majority opinion, one only has to look at that
incredible bill called (appropriately enough) "The Patriot Act", and
listen to GWB on National Television yet, bash Kerry for not fully
supporting it.
Of course, what bugs the shit out of me about Kerry, is he isn't MAN
enough to stand up and point out the flaws in the act, and WHY he
opposes even parts of it. Maybe he hasn't read the act? Maybe he
doesn't *understand* the wording and how it's being used?
If so, does that make him a worse choice than Bush, who does, and
approves?
No. But it still bugs me.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<j...@blueyonder.com.uk> wrote:
>Yup. You're born somewhere, grow up there, learn to
>......well, if not *love* it, then at least like it. It's better
>than elsewhere - you know it is.
>
equivalent to me.)
>And you go elsewhere. it's strange there - scenery might
>be better, food cheaper, weather warmer - but it's *not
>home*. They have strange customs, strange ways of
>talking, eat strange things, do strange things. The
>people are strange too....... they look just like the folks
>back home - but they're not.
>
I can encounter that in my own country, heck, in my own town.
>That's when you know you love your own country and
>just want to go home. (of course if home could have
>the cheap food, warm weather, nice scenery, etc
>as well as being *home*, that would be perfect <g>)
Yeah, I guess a lot of people do feel that way. I'm not one of them,
it seems.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
*snip*
>Not everyone thinks being patriotic means one's country is better than
>others, or that one is better than people in other countries. To me, that
>has nothing to do with patriotism.
Nothing at all? Because, as I understand the term, it seems to suggest
that one feel love for/devotion to one's country above all others
(otherwise why would you even be making a distinction?)
This is part of my problem.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
You and I are different that way. I think that if a society was
established that could meet the basic needs of its people, that would
result in more people being able to achieve many of their desires.
Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be.
The TheatrElf
That's not to say that an immigrant can't become a patriot -
many do. Some people are not born in their proper home - they
have to go off and find it.
Not everyone always loves their country and everyone it.
Frankly, there are times when I don't mind being mistaken for
Canadian. But not to the point where I'd move there.
--
:-( Xjahn
:-) The TheatrElf
http://home.comcast.net/~xjahn/Main.html
Nice computers don't go down...
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>Yeah, and I think that's part of what's blocking me on answering this.
>We're different in that way. I love everything that I have seen of the
>rest of the world, and want to see much much more of it. But I have a
>feeling of connection to many places in the US, and a special feeling of
>connection to where I live that is different than the connections I have
>to places that I have visited.
>
tourism commercial for South Africa that had me crying just like I do
when I see commercials for some of the more beautiful parts of the US.
>And I think that it applies to both personal history and more general
>history.
>
>For example, family history of immigration and my ancestor's feelings of
>gratitude for being here tie me to this country. National history of
>things that we strive for and things that we do (that I value) also tie
>me to this country.
>
>I should also note here that I DO live in DC. This probably affects how
>I feel. And no, it actually doesn't make me more government focused. I
>think it actually makes me less government focused. Certainly makes me
>less governmment friednly! What is does make me is more history focused.
>
*nod* That's interesting. I guess...there are a whole bunch of places
in the world to which I have historical ties, if one goes back far
enough, probably all of 'em.
There are things I admire in the history of the country in which I
live, and things I don't. The same can be said (by me) of some other
countries.
>> Those freedoms are part of my definition of "responsible individual
>> freedom" as mentioned in my other post to you, and, as noted, can be
>> found (in a general sense) in some other countries as well.
>
>Perhaps. I think I disagree there.
>
There is not a roughly equivalent level of freedom of speech and/or
religion in Canada or Australia or Britain?
>> *nod* I'm trying to understand why I am not a patriot, specifically,
>> and why other people are and what the differences between us are that
>> allow that to be the case. I think.
>
>See, but I'm wondering if you're "not a patriot," as opposed to "not a
>nationalist," or "not what they expect a partiot to be."
>
No. I understand the definition of a real patriot as discussed
elsewhere in this thread.
*snip with nod*
>> Although it wasn't actually in the definition given, I think "over
>> other countries" can reasonably be implied after "love of or devotion
>> to one's country".
>
>Perhaps.
As I asked in another post, if it doesn't, then what is the purpose of
the term, why make the distinction of "one's/my"?
>The question may come down to - given a chance to live in some other
>country, and not just to live there, but to become a citizen of there,
>would you? With no twinges? With no looking back?
>
Discounting the ties I have to people here (or assuming they'd come
with me), yes, if the country offered the things that were important
to me and was not a worse place to live.
That would, I think, say that I'm not a patriot. Which I parse as
"bad".
>Given a chance to stay where you are, would you, even if you had to work
>for change? Or would you rather go somewhere else because you think it
>is better?
>
>That seems to me to be part of it.
I would stay 'til, in my personal analysis, the price I was paying was
no longer worth it.
If there was someplace that one could rationally consider better, I
would go there, assuming I had tried to fix where I was until it was
either clear that I would not succeed or the price the was too high
(e.g. my loved ones were suffering significantly more than they would
elsewhere, etc.)
Neil
><fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
>*snip*
>>Not everyone thinks being patriotic means one's country is better than
>>others, or that one is better than people in other countries. To me, that
>>has nothing to do with patriotism.
>*snip*
>
>Nothing at all? Because, as I understand the term, it seems to suggest
>that one feel love for/devotion to one's country above all others
>(otherwise why would you even be making a distinction?)
>
>This is part of my problem.
Patriotism does, as you say, imply that one feel love
for / devotion to one's country above all others. But why
should this imply that one's country is better than others?
Patriotism does not necessarily have anything to do with
"better". Or with racism, xenophobia, etc.
I love my family, and I am more devoted to them than I
am to other families. That does not make me blind to
their faults. It does not make think I have a better family
than anyone else has. And it does not make me despise
any other family.
Also, patriotism does not mean blind acceptance of
anything done by my national leaders and government.
I've heard way too many claims that public dissent is
unpatriotic. No. I love my country. I will work to make it a
better place to live, and an asset to the world. This often
means opposing leaders of whom I disapprove.
Luria
(Remove <ical> to E-Mail)
_____
Entropy is God's will;
neatness is a sin.
sfw
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 22:27:05 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
> <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
> *snip*
>
>>Not everyone thinks being patriotic means one's country is better than
>>others, or that one is better than people in other countries. To me, that
>>has nothing to do with patriotism.
>
> *snip*
>
> Nothing at all? Because, as I understand the term, it seems to suggest
> that one feel love for/devotion to one's country above all others
> (otherwise why would you even be making a distinction?)
>
> This is part of my problem.
There is a difference between "better" and "better for me."
One can think that a place is right without making others lesser. Hence
one can prefer a place without seeing others as bad.
Sarah
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>Patriotism does, as you say, imply that one feel love
>for / devotion to one's country above all others. But why
>should this imply that one's country is better than others?
>Patriotism does not necessarily have anything to do with
>"better". Or with racism, xenophobia, etc.
>
>I love my family, and I am more devoted to them than I
>am to other families. That does not make me blind to
>their faults. It does not make think I have a better family
>than anyone else has. And it does not make me despise
>any other family.
>
keep me clear on this.
>Also, patriotism does not mean blind acceptance of
>anything done by my national leaders and government.
>I've heard way too many claims that public dissent is
>unpatriotic. No. I love my country. I will work to make it a
>better place to live, and an asset to the world. This often
>means opposing leaders of whom I disapprove.
>
*nod* That part I know very well. I think a lot of people saw or want
to see what I wrote as an attempt to start a discussion about "real"
patriotism, as compared to the kind often portrayed in the US (dunno
so much about countries.)
It's not. I know about nationalism, and I know much is done in the
name of patriotism that isn't really patriotism.
I do think a lot of people need to understand the point you made
above.
My question (which I'm sure you understand, but for the record) is
more along the lines of "why am I not a patriot, when I do understand
what "true" patriotism is?)
I have some clues now, none of which allow me to change my
understanding of myself to include "patriot". I'm still working on
answering the question fully, but rapidly coming to the conclusion
that it will not be the answer I would like.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
>There is a difference between "better" and "better for me."
>
>One can think that a place is right without making others lesser. Hence
>one can prefer a place without seeing others as bad.
>
C. Rance Fawbush
> In alt.callahans "C. Rance Fawbush" <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us>
> wrote:
>
> >Regionalism or nationalism
> >is not the same thing as patriotism.
>
> Um ... *I* tend to agree with you.
> All too many of my neighbors do not.
>
> Many times lately (and even in this group) I've heard words to the
> effect that if you aren't 100% behind whatever the country does as a
> whole, be it the war in Iraq, renaming french-fries, silliness like
> not exporting cryptography, or even Constitutionally-unsound laws like
> "The Patriot Act" that undermine the very basis of what makes this
> government sound, then, "You r're not properly patriotic!"
I've heard that in this group too...but from very few, nowhere near a
majority.
> To most of the people I know, "Patriotism" *IS* nationalism ... Being
> PROUD of your country because it IS your country, not for what it
> does, stands-for, or prevents. If you don't support it, good or evil,
> then you're not patriotic. ;-{
I know some people like that also, but to most of the people I know,
that's not patriotism.
> That this attitude is a majority opinion, one only has to look at that
> incredible bill called (appropriately enough) "The Patriot Act", and
> listen to GWB on National Television yet, bash Kerry for not fully
> supporting it.
I'm not convinced that represents a majority of Americans' opinions.
Nobody asked me to vote on it, or anyone I know. I think Congress quickly
approved it in the wake of 9/11 and many, maybe most, of them are
regretting it. Certainly most Americans had no input at all on "The
Patriot Act," and I hear constant griping from multiple directions about
it.
> Of course, what bugs the shit out of me about Kerry, is he isn't MAN
> enough to stand up and point out the flaws in the act, and WHY he
> opposes even parts of it. Maybe he hasn't read the act? Maybe he
> doesn't *understand* the wording and how it's being used?
>
> If so, does that make him a worse choice than Bush, who does, and
> approves?
>
> No. But it still bugs me.
Bugs me, too.
C. Rance Fawbush
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 22:27:05 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
> <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
> *snip*
> >Not everyone thinks being patriotic means one's country is better than
> >others, or that one is better than people in other countries. To me, that
> >has nothing to do with patriotism.
> *snip*
>
> Nothing at all? Because, as I understand the term, it seems to suggest
> that one feel love for/devotion to one's country above all others
> (otherwise why would you even be making a distinction?)
I love the USA better than I love other countries, but I don't automatically
think it's better just because I was born and grew up here. I definitely don't
believe Americans are automatically better people than all others. One can
love one's country and still be aware of its shortcomings, just as one can love
one's family but not be blind to their nasty sides.
To me, love of country does NOT mean putting it on a pedestal and has
absolutely nothing to do with blind obedience. Just my point of view, of
course. I know many people think patriotism does mean blind devotion, but I
disagree.
Actually, I guess I think of the USA as an extremely extended family and
patriotism (at least in part) as love of that family.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
*snip with nodding*
>Actually, I guess I think of the USA as an extremely extended family and
>patriotism (at least in part) as love of that family.
The heart of my problem, I think, is that I don't understand why one
would stop with one's country. I feel that way about the whole
universe. There doesn't seem to be a word for that.
sfw
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 16:31:46 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
> <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
> *snip with nodding*
>
>>Actually, I guess I think of the USA as an extremely extended family and
>>patriotism (at least in part) as love of that family.
>
>
> The heart of my problem, I think, is that I don't understand why one
> would stop with one's country. I feel that way about the whole
> universe. There doesn't seem to be a word for that.
Loving one's country does not preclude loving other places. Why would it?
Sarah
C. Rance Fawbush
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 16:31:46 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
> <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
> *snip with nodding*
> >Actually, I guess I think of the USA as an extremely extended family and
> >patriotism (at least in part) as love of that family.
>
> The heart of my problem, I think, is that I don't understand why one
> would stop with one's country. I feel that way about the whole
> universe. There doesn't seem to be a word for that.
Well, having a word for one level doesn't mean it stops there, that word just
describes that level (to me, of course). I agree, the extension goes on ad
infinitum.
Let's make or find a word for the ultimate extension. Any suggestions?
jennifer...@hotmail.com
It doesn't, but, as we discussed, patriotism implies that one loves
one's country better or more or in some distinct way differently than
one loves other countries (hence the need to make a distinction.) I
feel equal, basically identical love for the whole universe.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
>jennifer...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 May 2004 16:31:46 GMT, "C. Rance Fawbush"
>> <fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
>> *snip with nodding*
>> >Actually, I guess I think of the USA as an extremely extended family and
>> >patriotism (at least in part) as love of that family.
>>
>> The heart of my problem, I think, is that I don't understand why one
>> would stop with one's country. I feel that way about the whole
>> universe. There doesn't seem to be a word for that.
>
>Well, having a word for one level doesn't mean it stops there, that word just
>describes that level (to me, of course). I agree, the extension goes on ad
>infinitum.
>
As I said elsewhere, my problem is that, as we discussed (I believe),
the concept of patriotism implies that one feels more/better/somehow
distinctly differently in a positive way about one's country than
another country. What I was trying to say is that I feel the same
sort/quality of love for/devotion to the entire universe, therefore
making an arbitrary distinction seems...odd.
>Let's make or find a word for the ultimate extension. Any suggestions?
I'd love if there was one. I suppose "universalist" would be apt, if
it wasn't already used to mean other things.
Patriot comes ultimately from the word for father (as in "land of my
fathers".)
Omnipatriotism brings in the concept of "all", although it doesn't do
anything about the sexism, which I think it would be nice to get rid
of. Sadly, I can't think of a Latin root that is non-gender-specific.
("andro" is sometimes used, but actually also means man.)
*shrug* It's all really just a mental exercise anyway...I doubt the
English-speaking world will adopt such a word anyway.
jennifer...@hotmail.com
<fawb...@city.bloomington.in.us> wrote:
>Well, having a word for one level doesn't mean it stops there, that word just
>describes that level (to me, of course). I agree, the extension goes on ad
>infinitum.
>
>Let's make or find a word for the ultimate extension. Any suggestions?
*slaps forehead* I thought of it! It's perfect!
I am a...
metapatriot!
=)