AMOT-type question...the grass is greener...
gypsy
Folx...
But it has seemed to me, that no matter how talented a person, there's
always something, some skill, which he or she doesn't possess that they
secretly wish they did.
I have a friend, Daniel, for instance, who has the ability to pick up and
play just about any instrument. He's a genius when it comes to that. But
Daniel would trade all that to be able to sing, or so he has told me many a
time.
Me personally? I've got my strengths, but the one thing I secretly wish I
could do well is...well... *blush* figure skating.
I've even had dreams about it--so very real that I wake up and tell my
husband that it's almost a body memory (you know, where your muscles just
-remember- how to do something) and that I'm half convinced that if I could
skate sleeping, I'd be great!
Now I don't skate badly, but not well enough to call it "figure"
skating...unless used in the "I figure that's skating" context...Nor do I
watch it endlessly on TV or anything (in fact, almost never, except during
the olympics.)
So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
gypsy
--
remove the pink stuff to reply
SPgy...@dimensional.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
back for a while, an hour or two...or maybe a day,
or a lifetime..... -g-
Kerry J. Renaissance
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
Hmm.... Hmm....
Better general-purpose social skills. I'm not, mind you, terribly
socially inept, but I do _much_ better in certain specialized social
groupings than with people in general. Can't read most "normal" people
well; even in the town I grew up in, I find I'm totally unaware of things
they assume/take for granted, and I've found people tend to get annoyed at
my earnest queries about such things, or get mad at me over some faux-pas
I wasn't even aware of (else I could've avoided it).
Now, I'm not sure I'd trade another skill of mine for this. But it would
be helpful, and it seems to be the only popping into mind at this
question.
-- Kerry
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury
gypsy wrote:
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
I'd like to be able to improvise on one of the instruments I
know -- just be able to take the music in my head and make
it come out of either my trumpet or piano.
This is a skill I coulda added, of course, with a few more
years of work ...and I've obviously chosen other priorities
for my time. But if I could snap my fingers and make it
happen, I'd trade ...oh, my complete ability to play one of
my two instruments for the ability to play the other *really
well*.
Regards,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury
http://www.concentric.net/~erick/
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
>
Even
>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
Facility at mathematics. I'll give up my ice skating. Haven't done
that more than three times in the last three years and don't much miss
it.
Can I trade my pilot's license for a good singing voice?
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/
(818) 882-6309
Query pgpkeys.mit.edu for PGP public key.
Jacob Sommer
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
I wish I had facility with musical instruments. I can sing, some
people have even said they wouldn't run screaming into the night
when I do... but I wish to play.
It's probably the only thing I would give up skill at gaming for.
Jacob
SteveS424
>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
Anything musical. I'd love to be able to sing, or play an instrument --
preferably the piano or the guitar.
I have good pitch, and rather long, slim, dextrous fingers, but making
anything remotely musical come from an instrument is beyond me.
It could just be lack of opportunity, though. My parents could never
afford piano lessons, much less a piano, and my attempts at learning to play
the guitar may have been crippled by being the only left hander having to share
a guitar with my brother and sister. Or it may just be lack of talent.
I think part of me is afraid to find out which.
Steve, who did play first chair kazoo in his high school marching band...
keith...@my-deja.com
"gypsy" <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
Dropping out of the "third-person" I like to use when Och and I are
talking... For me, this one's easy. I want (still) to be able to run
fast. I was born with both legs dislocated from the hips, and the hips
weren't completely formed. Running straight-ahead from A to B, I've
ALWAYS been slow.
Fortunately, before I left my teen years, I discovered that I could
move quickly from *side to side*, and found an athletic position I could
play ... hockey goalie (ice, street, or roller.) Quick hands, quick
feet, but slow going forward. (I skate *much* faster than I can run.)
I say it kiddingly, but it's kidding on the square ... "When I grow up,
I want to be Ozzie Smith!" Ozzie's a retired shortstop for my team, the
St. Louis Cardinals, and the best defensive player ever to play the
position. He'll be in the Baseball Hall of Fame as soon as he's
eligible.
You know, Gypsy, for some reason, whever I read your posts, I hear
the guitar of Pete Townshend playing the song named after you, ever so
quietly in the background. Nice effect....
Keith Merritt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Rod Rempel
"understand" it. ... to intuitively know the important meaning imbedded in
it. For close to 30 years I've managed to avoid exploiting it much or
letting it ruin my life ... but for a lot of those years I would have been
quite willing to trade it for the ability to appreciate jazz music or ... a
few other things. I've slowly learned that people will throw money at you to
do even the most basic subset of this skill, as long as you don't step on
too many toes. ... but almost daily it is work to hide/avoid the problems.
Right now, I'm willing to put on the trading block:
Trade: 1/2 of slightly used ability to do intuitive basic problem
optimization (how many of you want, for example, to be able to intuitively
optimize your drive home at the end of the day by trading off slightly
longer drives for less unregulated left turns, etc. to know the advantage of
filling a gas tank at a certain point rather than dicking around with $10
fills ... estimate probability outcomes intuitively ... know the fallacy in
a lot of information (it is simple why Dow paid millions for the breast
implants, but it had nothing to do with any "fault", or balance the trade
offs in buying a house near power lines, for example ... that sort of
stuff).
For: any one or combination of: ability to dance, even slightly with my
wife. Ability to listen to someone "vent" without immediately trying to
"solve the problem". Ability to learn another (non machine) language.
Removal of the fear in hugging someone (when you weight the potential for
recrimination in the workplace, chance of lawsuits, ... it is rarely "smart"
to hug someone outside of a close family member, sorry folks).
OK, it can't happen (the trade), and I used to think "it wasn't fair..."
then I realized that nothing stopped me from trying, even if (logically) I
had little chance to succeed (see natural ability above...). All I can say
to those who have any interest in listening (ever mindful of the guy at the
piano with the blackjack) is "nobody said you had to score your life by the
same rules as everyone else ... who's to say that 'trying' shouldn't score
as high as 'succeeding' in the final analysis?". I now do many stupid things
(like spending way more time with my kids, trying to 'listen;' to my wife)
that rather than solving the bigger problems that I was 'programmed' for. I
like it way better, even though I'm basically inept at it (though trying
hard). I've left it to friend to figure out if "6" or "11" is the right
dimensionality of the universe, and other minor concerns (not to say that I
don't hang around at the occasional lunch meeting).
If someone throws the ability to understand jazz music on the yard-sale
table, we can definitely start to bargain (though I hate to haggle..).
* Rod Rempel rre...@infoserve.net
* If two million people do a stupid thing,
* it's still a stupid thing.
gypsy <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote in message
news:01beb45f$f9777180$080a...@planet10.dimensional.com...
gypsy
> You know, Gypsy, for some reason, whever I read your posts, I hear
> the guitar of Pete Townshend playing the song named after you, ever so
> quietly in the background. Nice effect....
>
> Keith Merritt
>
Hmmm...I think I'm terribly flattered!! *blush*
Now if I could only remember how that goes...
gypsy
<headed off to see if she can lay her hands on a copy>
<p&e>
Larisa Migachyov
> So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
The ability to draw. Or rather, the ability to see things in my mind's
eye and set them down on paper or canvas. I'm a totally untalented clod
when it comes to the visual arts; but this has always been my dream.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
Rebecca Schoenberg
: <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
:>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
:>
:>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
:>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
"Oh, gods, there are so many.... I wish I could sing, I wish I could play an
instrument, I wish I could *really* dance - not the random flailing I do,
but the sort that professional ballroom dancers do. I wish I were smarter,
I wish I had a knack for math and hard science. I wish I could draw. I
wish I could build things, I wish I could run miles or do acrobatics...
"If I had to pick one, I'd say either singing or drawing. I could learn
dancing on my own if I had time, and the hard science is an idle whim and
he desire to understand just what the heck it is my boyfriend does. But
I doubt I'll ever be able to sing without the car radio, or draw more than
stick figures, without some sort of divine intervention..."
-banshee, with more wishes than time
Martin Julian DeMello
> On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:16:19 GMT, "gypsy"
> <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
> [[hacksaw]]
>>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>>
>>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
> Ballet.
> --glinda, committing a one-line followup
They aren't discouraged here :)
--
Martin DeMello/zem (following suit)
Martin Julian DeMello
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
I'd love to be able to sing. Don't think I'd give up anything for it,
though (except maybe money for voice lessons, sometime <g>).
--
Martin DeMello/zem
Beth Jackson
>>What skill is it
>>that you would secretly
>>like to be able to possess?
>>Even to the point
>>where you might trade
>>another skill
>>to have it?
Canary:
Deep sighh...
{{:-\
The ability to keep my mind organized fairly easily, even *without*
Ritalin.
And to be able to be "quick on the uptake" when somebody is
exlplaining something to me for the *first* time.
See, the thing is:
Apparently I'm reasonably intelligent, but unfortunately, I've found
thru the years that, if somebody wants me to understand something that
they're *verbally* explaining to me, they have to repeat it.
Over and over and over.
*Very* frustrating!
And yet, when I finally do have whatever concept it is, that they were
explaining to me, I often find that not only do I understand it
perfectly, but that I can frequently use it, creatively, and often
remember it *easily*, for *years*.
(---Gahhhh!)-:{{
--one Very Frustrated Canary
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the Canvas Canary
(Visit my new website:)
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/canvascanary/
Nancy Lebovitz
Beth Jackson <canvas...@webtv.net> wrote:
>
>The ability to keep my mind organized fairly easily, even *without*
>Ritalin.
> And to be able to be "quick on the uptake" when somebody is
>exlplaining something to me for the *first* time.
>
>See, the thing is:
>
>Apparently I'm reasonably intelligent, but unfortunately, I've found
>thru the years that, if somebody wants me to understand something that
>they're *verbally* explaining to me, they have to repeat it.
>Over and over and over.
>*Very* frustrating!
>
>And yet, when I finally do have whatever concept it is, that they were
>explaining to me, I often find that not only do I understand it
>perfectly, but that I can frequently use it, creatively, and often
>remember it *easily*, for *years*.
> (---Gahhhh!)-:{{
>
of processing while you're listening--the kind of processing that
represents years of thought and practice for other people.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com
Calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury
Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> gypsy wrote:
> > What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> > to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
> The ability to draw.
You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
*anyone* can learn to draw.
(I apologize if I'm being too forward; your wish to draw may
be like my wish to noodle around on my trumpet without sheet
music ...I'm certain I could learn to do it, but haven't
taken the time).
But I've run into a lot of people who think that being able
to draw is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition, and I
challenge this idea when I can :>
More to the point, i think basic illustration skills can be
taught in a few months, rather than the couple of years it
might take me to learn to improvise on a musical
instrument... Your Mileage May Vary...
megg...@my-deja.com
"gypsy" <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
>
> So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
> gypsy
>
> --
> remove the pink stuff to reply
> SPgy...@dimensional.com
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> back for a while, an hour or two...or maybe a day,
> or a lifetime..... -g-
>
Oh, to dance!!! I'm not sure what I would give up for it, but I would
love to be able to dance. Well.
Meg
Marc Lechowicz
>So here's the question, oh many-
>talented Patrons-at-large:
>What skill is it that you would secretly
>like to be able to possess? Even to the
>point where you might trade another skill
>to have it?
Singing on the right key.
"A chorus! A chorus! My kingdom for a chorus!"
Yankee
--
All opinions expressed are my own, and are not necessarily
representative of others.
I post and email by default, and would appreciate if responders would do
the same.
WareWolf
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) wrote in message
<8Zi83.330$qO5....@typhoon01.swbell.net>...
>>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>>
>>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
>Even
>>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
>
>that more than three times in the last three years and don't much miss
>it.
>
>Can I trade my pilot's license for a good singing voice?
Deal!
Dusty
JewelOtter
>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
The otter/woman would dearly love to be able to sing well. Actually, making
music in some form beyond putting a CD in the player and pushing the button.
But particularly, to sing.
What would she trade? Hrm...not the acting, since if she could sing, she could
then do musical theatre. Not the dancing...same reason. *Not* the writing. How
about the cooking? The family could live with basic rather than fabulous meals
for the sake of having a mother who can sing, surely...
JewelOtter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Live, love and laugh with your whole heart.
sweetvenom
>: <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
>
>:>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>:>
>:>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>:>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
male Barbra Streisand.
SweetVenom Bob
Everyone thinks I'm psychotic, except for my friends deep inside the earth.
Randolph Fritz
skills...]
"With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
"If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
R.
evitsky
Randolph, I definitely agree, and it's a major pity. There are so many
branches to and so many available niches within the arts community, that
*some* form of expressive enjoyment is available to people of just about any
level of ability or talent.
evitsky <after the degree? oh, improv comedy lessons, I think, and then
maybe Sweet Adelines>
gypsy
evitsky <froge...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<eS0loVRt#GA.283@cpmsnbbsa03>...
> Randolph Fritz wrote in message ...
> >[...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
> >skills...]
> >
> >"With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
> >by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
> >enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
> >
> >"If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
> >education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
> >these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
> >society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
>
>
> Randolph, I definitely agree, and it's a major pity. There are so many
> branches to and so many available niches within the arts community, that
> *some* form of expressive enjoyment is available to people of just about
any
> level of ability or talent.
I keep seeing singing, dancing and artistic ability...and wondering why,
here in the states, when it comes to cutting programs to fit dwindling
school budgets, these seem to be the first to go...
Wouldn't it be nice to see some school administrator somewhere tap into
this and realize that the "arts" are more than just a cultural expression
that ought to be accessible to those who can afford them, but are actually
a human need?
DC
news:92916858...@zarathud.3d.gweep.net...
: : On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:16:19 GMT, "gypsy"
: : <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
:
: :>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
: :>
: :>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to
possess? Even
: :>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
<snip>
Ghods, I'd give my left arm to be ambidextrous!
(erk...)
Ix
(sorry, just hadda say that)
gypsy
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote in article
<37627187...@pop3.concentric.net>...
> (posted and e-mailed)
>
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> >
> > gypsy wrote:
>
Even
> > > to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
> >
>
> You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
> artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
> *anyone* can learn to draw.
>
> (I apologize if I'm being too forward; your wish to draw may
> be like my wish to noodle around on my trumpet without sheet
> music ...I'm certain I could learn to do it, but haven't
> taken the time).
>
> But I've run into a lot of people who think that being able
> to draw is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition, and I
> challenge this idea when I can :>
>
> More to the point, i think basic illustration skills can be
> taught in a few months, rather than the couple of years it
> might take me to learn to improvise on a musical
> instrument... Your Mileage May Vary...
Backing you up on this one, Erick...
I have an older brother who is an extremely talented "natural" artist...as
kids, I'd make bad paintings of stick trees, and look over to see that he
had made an aspen materialize out of watercolor and paper....
It was discouraging, at best...but it didn't help that my folks always said
"Well, John's the artist of the two..." So I never even bothered to try.
Until I was in college, and on a whim, said, 'Hey, it can't hurt to try...'
I'll never be a Rembrandt, but I can draw reasonable facsimiles of what I'm
trying to reproduce now -- a good teacher and some patience was all it
took...
And anyways, although I'll never be Dorothy Hamill or Michelle Kwan (pick
your generation)...I still -try- to skate :)
Beth Jackson
>>>So here's the question,
>>>oh many-talented
>>>Patrons-at-large:
>>>
>>>What skill is it that
>>>you would secretly like
>>>to be able to possess?
>>>Even to the point where
>>>you might trade another skill
>>>to have it?
Yankee:
>>Singing on the right key.
>>
>>"A chorus!
>>A chorus!
>>My kingdom for a chorus!"
Canary:
88
888
8888888888
888888888888
88888888888888888
8888888888888888888888888
888888888888888888888888888
88888888888888888888888888
88888888888888
888888888888888
88888888888888888
8888888888888888888
88888888888888888888
88888888888888888888
888888888888888888888
(Sighhh... Well, so much for tryin' to make a picture of a horse's
silhouette...! {:-\)
Beth Jackson
>>>>What skill is it that
>>>>you would secretly like
>>>>to be able to possess?
>>>>Even to the point where
>>>>you might trade another skill to have it?
Larisa:
>>>The ability to draw.
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury:
>>You and Banshee both
>>mentioned this one.
>>
>>As a commercial artist,
>>I'd like to offer my opinion:
>>to some degree,
>>*anyone* can learn to draw.
>>
>>(I apologize if I'm being too forward;
>>your wish to draw
>>may be like my wish to
>>noodle around on my trumpet
>>without sheet music
>>...I'm certain I could learn to do it,
>>but haven't taken the time).
>>
>>But I've run into a lot of people
>>who think that being able to draw
>>is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition,
>>and I challenge this idea when I can :>
>>
>>More to the point,
>>I think basic illustration skills
>>can be taught in a few months,
>>rather than the couple of years
>>it might take me
>>to learn to improvise
>>on a musical instrument...
>>Your Mileage May Vary...
Canary, grinning:
Yuppers, Erick; at least, IMHO. :)
IYDMMSayingSo, I think what might perhaps be lacking is more the *drive*
to draw, than the *ability* to draw.
(YMMV, however, of course;)
I remember a brother-type friend:) of mine in Art School, who didn't
seem to have quite as much Ability (at the time {{:-\) as I did.
*But* he had *so very* much more Drive than I did, that he is now a
happily successful, and creative, graphics-artist on his own.
And a freelance one, at that.
(Sigh)
I think most people can prob'ly draw at least well enough to illustrate
a basic *idea*; at least, I've seen some former clients of mine do it,
when they were visiting whatever advertising-art-agency I happened to be
working at the time.
{{;-)
(IOW, and FWIW, IMHO "there is hope", Folks.;)
Beth Jackson
co...@NOTRASH.ipa.net (DC)
>>Ghods,
>>I'd give my left arm
>>to be ambidextrous!
>>
>>(erk...)
>>
>>Ix
>>(sorry,
>>just hadda say that)
Canary:
ROTFL!
88888888888888888888888888888888888888
88888888888888888888888888888888888888
John Palmer
<er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
>(posted and e-mailed)
>
>Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>>
>> gypsy wrote:
>
>> > What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>> > to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>>
>> The ability to draw.
>
>You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
>artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
>*anyone* can learn to draw.
Maybe. The few times I had a teacher try to teach me to draw,
the same things happened; I found that I *COULD NOT* make the pencil
lines match anything in my head. I can't get any consistency. I'll
also point out that even when I'm writing slowly and carefully, my
handwriting isn't very consistent, or good.
Maybe I'm wrong, and with a little training I could draw
decently, but I'm more than willing to assume that's not the case. I
have too many thousands of other things I want to do that I never get
to.
>But I've run into a lot of people who think that being able
>to draw is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition, and I
>challenge this idea when I can :>
Nod. It's true; there *IS* a skill in abstracting a picture
that has to be learned by most people. But I think - obviously, no
proof here - that even if I could abstract the picture perfectly, I
could do no more than teach OTHER people how to draw it.
(By "abstracting", I'm referring to the process of, basically, turning
the 3D image into the essential 2D figures.
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
Once you pull the pin on Mr. Hand Grenade, he is no longer your friend.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
>[...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
>skills...]
>
>"With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
>by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
>enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
>
>"If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
>education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
>these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
>society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
Education in the arts wasn't lacking in my schools, at least up through
12th grade, as far as taking the classes was concerned. The problem was
the teachers. It seemed the goal of every art teacher I ever had to
utterly crush every slightest glimmer of creativity they found in their
students. Some of mine were just outright stupid, to boot.
To paraphrase another aphorism: Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teach. Those who can't teach, teach art.
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CCP, CFI)
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/
(818) 882-6309
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The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Beth Jackson wrote in message
<7179-376...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Canary:
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(Sighhh... Well, so much for tryin' to make a picture of a horse's
silhouette...! {:-\)
You did very well. I recognized it instantly, before I scrolled down to
your explanation.
The Trinker
>
> Randolph Fritz wrote in message ...
> >[...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
> >skills...]
> >
> >"With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
> >by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
> >enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
> >
> >"If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
> >education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
> >these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
> >society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
>
> Education in the arts wasn't lacking in my schools, at least up through
> 12th grade, as far as taking the classes was concerned. The problem was
> the teachers. It seemed the goal of every art teacher I ever had to
> utterly crush every slightest glimmer of creativity they found in their
> students. Some of mine were just outright stupid, to boot.
>
> To paraphrase another aphorism: Those who can, do. Those who can't,
> teach. Those who can't teach, teach art.
The Trinker listens, and decides it's time to thank someone publically
who made a *big* difference in her life. Stepping up to the chalk
line, she faces the Polymath, and says,
"I've had my share of terrible art teachers. I've also had my share
of very good art teachers, but tonight I want to thank the one who
started it all, and had more influence than any other.
"As I recall, his name was William Wheeler. Since I was in seventh
grade at the time, I only remember him as 'Mr. Wheeler'. He taught
the most amazing art class I have ever had the pleasure to be part
of. He was the one teacher I regretted leaving behind when I
transferred schools 10 weeks into the term.
"In 10 short weeks, he'd managed to cover self portraits, charcoal
sketching, still lifes, chalk pastels, oil pastels, copying and
re-interpreting artwork, calligraphy with dip and fountain pens,
perspective, and shading. I wish I knew what the rest of his
syllabus was for that term. I think he was planning to do more
work with oil pastels and turpentine, and watercolors. I still
remember every lesson he taught in that class, and I use many of
the skills he taught daily.
"When I got to the other school, I loved every other teacher I
had except for my new art teacher. She didn't think seventh
graders were capable of any art whatsoever, and had us doing
projects that were boring when I was a kindergartener. Watercolor
washes over crayon on construction paper! Eugh.
"So, anyway. To Mr. Wheeler. Because he believed in what he was
teaching, and because he was good at it. Thank you!"
***CRASH***
The Trinker
--
spam filtered. To send e-mail remove the spamtrap.
Donna Leaf
>
> The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) wrote in message
> <8Zi83.330$qO5....@typhoon01.swbell.net>...
> >>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
> >>
> >Even
> >>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
> >
> >
> >that more than three times in the last three years and don't much miss
> >it.
> >
> >Can I trade my pilot's license for a good singing voice?
>
> Deal!
>
> Dusty
Murphy (piggybacking) asks hopefully,
"Does that mean I can trade my singing voice for a pilot's license?"
--
Donna Leaf - mrfi...@pacbell.net
I’m in search of myself -- Have you seen me lately?
Kerry J. Renaissance
> [...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
> skills...]
>
> "With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
> by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
> enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
>
> "If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
> education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
> these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
> society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
Well, in the schooling system I experienced -- which may have changed
since then -- basic schooling in singing, drawing and/or painting was, as
I recall, required. OTOH, what was there wasn't much by way of education.
Certainly I recall spending many years fruitlessly trying to figure out
poetic forms, which didn't even get touched on until high school; likewise
for learning decent drawing skills. I can't speak for the musicians or
singers, but I must assume their situation also improved in high school;
in the meantime, I imagine they had to go outside the public school
system.
Of course, by then, many people have given up on having any artistic
ability.
It may also be that, in our society (and I realize I'm probably expressing
a USAn perspective), artistic ability and/or skill is presumed to be
inborn, and inspiration-driven. Those two ideas can be crippling to new
artists, I think. Inspiration does sometimes strike, but cannot be
relied upon. Writing, singing, drawing, etc, are all skills that need to
practiced; one doesn't get far, waiting for the Muse. There may be
something to the idea of inborn ability, but it doesn't seem to very
predictable, either.
-- Kerry
jhe...@my-deja.com
"gypsy" <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
>
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
Even
> to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
>
Dunno what I'd have to trade for them, but I'd like the facility with
languages some people have, and a greater ease with complex
mathmatics.
I took German and Latin in high school, and found both to be opaque. I
could memorize things, vocabulary and declensions and grammar, but they
never really made sense. Some people seem to have a gift for re-
setting their heads in another language. God help me if I'd had to
learn English as a second tongue.
And the third semester of advanced math in college is what persuaded me
to transfer from electrical engineering to architecture. It was all
too abstract, no hooks to hang it on.<G>
--
Jim
"Build a better mousetrap and the world will build a better mouse."
Anon.
Rebecca Schoenberg
: [...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
: skills...]
: "With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
: by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
: enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
: "If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
: education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
: these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
: society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
Banshee shakes her head. "I've had years of chorus class and art class and
drawing class and do-it-yourself books and spent hours and days and more
trying to sing, trying to draw, trying to paint. I just can't.
"It's something you're either born with the potential to learn, or you're SOL
for the rest of your life. Some people can learn it, some just can't. I
can't. I could spend the rest of my life in 12-hour-a-day lessons and still
die of old age unable to sing on key or draw anything beyond a smiley-face.
It's a fact of life...."
-banshee, who thinks it's a rather sucky and unfair fact, but isn't
about to try to defy the universe
Rebecca Schoenberg
:>"With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
:>by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
:>enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
:>
:>"If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
:>education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
:>these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
:>society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
: Randolph, I definitely agree, and it's a major pity. There are so many
: branches to and so many available niches within the arts community, that
: *some* form of expressive enjoyment is available to people of just about any
: level of ability or talent.
"I really wish that were true - it would be a much nicer world if it were.
Unfortunately, there are some of us who are just born with no artistic skill
whatsoever and no ability to learn one. Not everyone has the potential to
express themselves artistically, and for those of us who don't those classes
aren't just a waste of time, but a constant reminder of the gaping hole in
our expressive abilities...."
-banshee, artistically inept
Jim M. Pierce
John Palmer wrote:
[] Maybe. The few times I had a teacher try to teach me to draw,
[]the same things happened; I found that I *COULD NOT* make the pencil
[]lines match anything in my head. I can't get any consistency. I'll
[]also point out that even when I'm writing slowly and carefully, my
[]handwriting isn't very consistent, or good.
My handwriting is lousy...
I took three drawing classes in college. The first two were with
the same instructor. I drew very poorly. Well, 'poorly' is an
understatement. I moved, and also changed to another college. I took
classes in another major, one class was drawing. I found I could draw
much better. He and I discussed the problems I had had. He had us do
several relaxing drawing exercises before attempting to draw
anything. I slowly improved. All of a sudden, I was doing something
that startled him and the other students. We were drawing various
ones of us who volunteered to sit up on the dais. Now, no nudity. The
guys took off their shirts, and some of the gals wore swim suits or
t-shirts instead of long sleeves.
chair
us in a semi-circle around the chair.
[1] [2]
The young woman in the chair was facing about midway between [1]
and [2]. I was at position [1]. But, I drew her as if I at position
[2]. I didn't walk over to position [2]. I just looked at her,
presumed her face was symetrical, and changed the direction she was
facing, in my mind.
I still don't know how I did it. But then, neither does the
instructor.
What startled me even more, was that the drawing looked like her.
[] Maybe I'm wrong, and with a little training I could draw
[]decently, but I'm more than willing to assume that's not the case. I
[]have too many thousands of other things I want to do that I never get
[]to.
I found that changing instructors helped me greatly.
Mybe it had to do with the relaxing drawing exercises he had us do
as well...
DJ.
--
djim50 at bellsouth dot net Disclaimer: Standard
I also don't need extra Tea and spam in my reply to...:-)
Updated June 5: Web pages now at: http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/
Randolph Fritz
<si...@hotblack.gweep.net> wrote:
>
>Banshee shakes her head. "I've had years of chorus class and art class and
>drawing class and do-it-yourself books and spent hours and days and more
>trying to sing, trying to draw, trying to paint. I just can't.
>
"There are so many bad art teachers out there, that it's entirely
possible you've just had a rotten education. Polymath's comment is to
the point, I think. You may also be measuring yourself against a
too-high standard; our culture is saturated with visual and aural
reproductions of the work of the best craftspeople (notice I do not
say artists!) there are."
>"It's something you're either born with the potential to learn, or you're SOL
>for the rest of your life. Some people can learn it, some just can't. I
>can't. I could spend the rest of my life in 12-hour-a-day lessons and still
>die of old age unable to sing on key or draw anything beyond a smiley-face.
>It's a fact of life...."
"You are laying claim to a learning disability here. Perhaps...real
disabilties do exist. But I suspect a teaching disability instead."
R.
--
"Fear is the only enemy that I still know"--NMA
Randolph Fritz
"Ordinarily I don't like following on my own posts, but 'l'esprit
d'escalier' spoke up after my last reply, and I have something to add
to this...
"A lot of women educated in the 1950s believed they were bad at
mathematics, that it was just something that only men could do. And,
indeed they were bad at mathematics--but it wasn't because women are
inherently bad at math, it was because of rotten teaching and the
artificial creation of anxiety.
"Now, there are some real math-related learning disabilities out
there--but they didn't affect most women, of course. And I think the
same goes for art."
R.
__
evitsky
<01beb51a$937ef220$080a...@planet10.dimensional.com>...
>> >skills...]
>> Randolph, I definitely agree, and it's a major pity.
<snip>
>I keep seeing singing, dancing and artistic ability...and wondering why,
>here in the states, when it comes to cutting programs to fit dwindling
>school budgets, these seem to be the first to go...
>Wouldn't it be nice to see some school administrator somewhere tap into
>this and realize that the "arts" are more than just a cultural expression
>that ought to be accessible to those who can afford them, but are actually
>a human need?
>
Boy, wouldn't it JUST?
evitsky
evitsky
<92924508...@zarathud.3d.gweep.net>...
Truly? I think we are often conditioned to believe that small enjoyments
don't count.
But the arts include social dancing, ceramics, beadwork, flower arranging,
and fabric work of many kinds. And larger productions require all kinds of
background support: perhaps you don't feel up to acting, but would be happy
as prop-mistress or scenery-painter.
And the classes are only a waste of time if one can't enjoy *doing* without
*doing perfectly*. I know you have been spending quite a lot of time
striving for perfection for the sake of your patients, and that's definitely
admirable---but eventually there will, I hope, be time which you can spend
by being enjoyably *less* than perfect.
evitsky
evitsky
>Rebecca Schoenberg wrote in message
><92924508...@zarathud.3d.gweep.net>...
>>evitsky <froge...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>: Randolph Fritz wrote in message ...
>>:>
egg, baked in a medium oven and eaten with a nice salsa fresca>
Having read a post of yours farther down the thread, I ask you to accept my
apology. You have devoted effort to specific achievements and not been able
to find ways to succeed at them. While that doesn't mean that all the arts
are closed to you, certainly I have no magic words to enable you to succeed
at the ones you most long to master.
evitsky
Janet D. Miles
wrote:
> "I really wish that were true - it would be a much nicer world if it were.
> Unfortunately, there are some of us who are just born with no artistic skill
> whatsoever and no ability to learn one. Not everyone has the potential to
> express themselves artistically, and for those of us who don't those classes
> aren't just a waste of time, but a constant reminder of the gaping hole in
> our expressive abilities...."
What she said. I tried to come up with a response to Randolph and
Evitsky, and couldn't, because it sounded too much like self-pity and
not enough like reasoned disagreement.
Banshee has managed reasoned disagreement, with no self-pity.
Anyway, I'll second her on this one: while I certainly agree that
*appreciation* for the arts should be included in general education,
as well as opportunities (not requirements) for students to try
various modes of artistic expression, I suspect that requiring
artistic *production* of all students would very likely be as
soul-destroying as requiring athletic ability of all students
currently is.
Ah: another analogy. Everyone should study different literary forms
in school. Everyone should have the opportunity to participate in
dramatic productions. No one should be *required* to participate in
dramatic productions. Same with other forms of art.
JanetM
--
Posted by Janet Miles <jmi...@usit.net> <http://www.public.usit.net/jmiles>
"This is Callahan's Place, and it's Callahan's Place because of everyone
who comes in and ensures it stays that way." -- Robert Farquhar, July 15, 1998
Loyal Webcrafter: PenUltimate Productions <http://www.worthlink.net/~ysabet>
j.w.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote
>
> To paraphrase another aphorism: Those who can, do. Those who can't,
> teach. Those who can't teach, teach art.
Tttthhhhhhhppppppptttttttttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
j.w. (too busy writing report cards to give that phrase the flaming it
deserves)
Droewyn
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) wrote:
> Education in the arts wasn't lacking in my schools, at least up through
> 12th grade, as far as taking the classes was concerned. The problem was
> the teachers. It seemed the goal of every art teacher I ever had to
> utterly crush every slightest glimmer of creativity they found in their
> students. Some of mine were just outright stupid, to boot.
Wow! I didn't know you had my art teacher! <mode: nasal> "*sniff* That is
*not* Art." <mode: nomal> She would give us arbitrary assignments in which
we would have to follow strict guidelines, and then grade down for "lack of
vision." I remember one assignment when everyone in the class had to draw
the name of an emotion out of a bag, which we then had to paint. And after
everyone was done, the class would try to guess the emotion painted. One
girl started at the corner of her paper with yellow, and slowly faded it to
white at the opposite corner. Nobody guessed hers; it was 'Sadness.' Only
when she told us what it was, it jumped out at me. It wasn't bawling,
screaming, tearing your hair out sorrow, but the emotion was there. It was
bittersweet, it was smiling through tears. It was brilliant. She failed.
Me, I liked to play with the restrictions. When told to paint an outdoor
scene with at least one leafed tree and one conifer, clouds, and a manmade
object (such as a road, or a fence, or a house) I drew a snowy hillscape
with a pair of trees on one hill and a sixties-style avocado green
refridgerator on the other hill, extention cord running all the way over to
plug into the deciduous (sp; not conifer) tree.
Droewyn
--
--'--,--<@ --'--,--<@ --'--,--<@ _\@/_ @>--,--'-- @>--,--'-- @>--,--'--
Sydney Allison Ashcraft |Wonder and hope will draw the unicorn, faith
Lavender GoodWench and |and love will bind him. This is Innocence.
Unsavory Malcontent |Sexual ignorance has nothing to do with it.
--'--,--<@ --'--,--<@ --'--,--<@ _\@/_ @>--,--'-- @>--,--'-- @>--,--'--
Bill Gawne
> What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
> Even to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
I would like to have Barnstead's multilingual talents. Languages were
the one area of study that didn't come naturally to me, and I think
now that I was either too old or too young at the time I attempted
them.
I would be willing to accept Barnstead's cat as the price. But I'm
not willing to give up any of my hard-won skills. Too much time and
training have gone into them.
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
Astronomer at Large - Retired Master Sergeant USMCR - Nothing I
post represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne
Bart Hammerly
> drawing class and do-it-yourself books and spent hours and days and more
> trying to sing, trying to draw, trying to paint. I just can't.
>
> for the rest of your life. Some people can learn it, some just can't. I
> can't. I could spend the rest of my life in 12-hour-a-day lessons and still
> die of old age unable to sing on key or draw anything beyond a smiley-face.
> It's a fact of life...."
>
> about to try to defy the universe
My understanding is that you are a wonderful dancer. Doesn't that make you an
artist, if only informally?
--
Phoenix
The Trinker
Bill Gawne wrote:
>
> gypsy:
> > What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
> > Even to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
> I would like to have Barnstead's multilingual talents. Languages were
> the one area of study that didn't come naturally to me, and I think
> now that I was either too old or too young at the time I attempted
> them.
>
> I would be willing to accept Barnstead's cat as the price. But I'm
> not willing to give up any of my hard-won skills. Too much time and
> training have gone into them.
Can't help you with Russian, Bill, but the offer to exchange
language lessons for science lectures still stands...
(And yeah...lots of things I'd *like* to be able to do, like
sing well, f'rinstance, but I'm not willing to give up any of
the skills I have now...)
Randolph Fritz
>Anyway, I'll second her on this one: while I certainly agree that
>*appreciation* for the arts should be included in general education,
>as well as opportunities (not requirements) for students to try
>various modes of artistic expression, I suspect that requiring
>artistic *production* of all students would very likely be as
>soul-destroying as requiring athletic ability of all students
>currently is.
"Well, we could teach mathematics the same way, you know. That's what
used to be done to girls.
"Or we could teach art the way gym is taught--this is one I personally
know something about. The basic reason I was bad in gym was
that--except for one class--there was no *teaching*. There was,
instead, contempt for people who didn't already have the skills. And
so the kids who were out of shape didn't practice and were never told
that persistence and practice would bring improvement.
"Before deciding a substantial minority is learning disabled--as you
are essentially and I believe wrongly arguing--we might at least try
improving the quality of the teaching."
>Ah: another analogy. Everyone should study different literary forms
>in school. Everyone should have the opportunity to participate in
>dramatic productions. No one should be *required* to participate in
>dramatic productions. Same with other forms of art.
"Why don't we teach math and science or reading and writing the same
way, hey? You'll find people to argue for their own disabilities.
But we feel these are necessary and the effort is made. And, somehow,
most people manage to learn the basics, though not everyone becomes
highly skilled.
"Now, I'll be the first to agree that our teaching methods and our
educational system are intensely shaming and cruel and should be
reformed--but I do *not* believe that the basics of most arts are
beyond most people, anymore than the basics of reading, writing, and
arithmetic are."
--
"I don't give a damn that we never will be worthy,
gypsy
The Trinker <k...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com> wrote in article
<37633C14...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com>...
<...>
> "So, anyway. To Mr. Wheeler. Because he believed in what he was
> teaching, and because he was good at it. Thank you!"
>
>
>
> ***CRASH***
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I will ALWAYS second a toast to a good teacher...they're worth MORE than
their weight in gold!!!
And a second toast:
To ALL good teachers, everywhere...You inspire us...and we don't forget
you!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
gypsy
--
remove the pink stuff to reply
SPgy...@dimensional.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
back for a while, an hour or two...or maybe a day,
or a lifetime..... -g-
Matthew T. Russotto
Randolph Fritz <rand...@efn.org> wrote:
}On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:50:00 GMT, Janet D. Miles <jmi...@usit.net> wrote:
}>Anyway, I'll second her on this one: while I certainly agree that
}>*appreciation* for the arts should be included in general education,
}>as well as opportunities (not requirements) for students to try
}>various modes of artistic expression, I suspect that requiring
}>artistic *production* of all students would very likely be as
}>soul-destroying as requiring athletic ability of all students
}>currently is.
}
}"Well, we could teach mathematics the same way, you know. That's what
}used to be done to girls.
In one sense, mathematical *production* is not required of _any_
student until at least graduate level. (And I'd guess it's actually
Ph.D level). In another sense, it doesn't start until at least
geometry proofs, which many students never actually reach.
}"Why don't we teach math and science or reading and writing the same
}way, hey? You'll find people to argue for their own disabilities.
}But we feel these are necessary and the effort is made. And, somehow,
}most people manage to learn the basics, though not everyone becomes
}highly skilled.
Because math and high school level science and reading and certain
types of writing are fundamentally different than the creative arts
(which include certain types of writing).
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Randolph Fritz
<russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>
>Because math and high school level science and reading and certain
>types of writing are fundamentally different than the creative arts
>(which include certain types of writing).
>
"In what way, Matthew?"
R.
Lee S. Billings
si...@hotblack.gweep.net says...
>"Unfortunately, there are some of us who are just born with no
artistic skill
>whatsoever and no ability to learn one. Not everyone has the
potential to
>express themselves artistically, and for those of us who don't those
classes
>aren't just a waste of time, but a constant reminder of the gaping
hole in
>our expressive abilities...."
"Artistic" means more than just the standard things people think of
under that classification. You have some of the same skill Isaac Asimov
had: the ability to take a complex and technical subject and lay it out
in such a way that the average layperson can understand the gist of it.
I think of that as an art, and I wish I could do it as well as you do!
Celine
--
"Art comes from the heart, but the heart is instructed by the culture."
-- Janet Kagan, _HellSpark_
Lee S. Billings
SPgy...@dimensional.com says...
>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
>Even to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
In my case, it's less what I don't have than what I don't have enough
of. I wish I had the discipline to play a musical instrument really
well; I wish I had enough vocal volume to be heard in any venue larger
than a living room without straining; I wish I hadn't let my voice go
fallow for 10 years, resulting in pitch control problems I've never
been able to get rid of (and didn't have in college).
There are a lot of things I'd like to be able to do, but none of them
so much as to be a better musician than I am.
Lee S. Billings
says...
>"Why don't we teach math and science or reading and writing the same
>way, hey? You'll find people to argue for their own disabilities.
>But we feel these are necessary and the effort is made. And, somehow,
>most people manage to learn the basics, though not everyone becomes
>highly skilled.
>
>"Now, I'll be the first to agree that our teaching methods and our
>educational system are intensely shaming and cruel and should be
>reformed--but I do *not* believe that the basics of most arts are
>beyond most people, anymore than the basics of reading, writing, and
>arithmetic are."
I'll back you on this one, Randolph. I have said over and over again
(and I'm sure I've said it here at least once) that I have NO talent
whatsoever for the visual arts. But... stuck in a box in the back of my
storage closet is a sketchbook from the year I took an art class in
high school. Every so often I pull it out and flip thru it, and simply
marvel. There's a sketch of a twig so lifelike you could nearly pull it
off the page, and various other things that I could never in this world
manage to reproduce. It's one of those memories that I treasure, like
the never-able-to-repeat *extremely* operatic note I produced just once
in the middle of a voice lesson.
If I could do that, then (barring physical difficulties) I don't see
how anyone else would be unable to. Because there really is no person
here with less drawing-and-painting talent than me!
gypsy
<Q1Z83.338$7g1....@monger.newsread.com>...
> In article <slrn7m8ai6....@open.thedoor.nom>,
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@efn.org> wrote:
> }On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:50:00 GMT, Janet D. Miles <jmi...@usit.net>
wrote:
> types of writing are fundamentally different than the creative arts
> (which include certain types of writing).
> Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
Hmmm... have to disagree here...on the premise that math, english, music,
and art are all man-made forms of communication (languages) which follow
strict rules of structure.
When I was in elementary school...I was told by some verrrry misguided
people "Well...you're good in English and Social Studies, so it's only
natural that you'll be weaker in Math and Science..."
Self-fulfilling prophecy...the PTB told me, I believed it, and I
was...UNTIL I had a brilliant math teacher in high school who told me that
THAT particular premise was absurd...That if I had the ability to
understand the nuances of English, I certainly had the ability to
understand the same of Math...
Fortunately for me, he was correct. Once my opinion changed, it was no
longer "impossible" for me to excel in Mathematics. Without his input, I
would've never had the drive to teach myself Analytical Calculus (using
books, of course...:))
Any language (math, English, French, music, art, COBOL, Fortran...you name
it...) is an artificially constructed vehicle for expressing thoughts,
ideas, concepts, and in some cases, emotion (all though NOT all go this
far.) Given that, I'd have to say that I must take one step back...and say
you're right that there is a slight difference...But I'd say less of a
-fundamental- one than you propose.
Randolph Fritz
<k...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com> wrote:
>"So, anyway. To Mr. Wheeler. Because he believed in what he was
>teaching, and because he was good at it. Thank you!"
***CRASH***
"And to Bill Garnett and Suenn Ho, would could probably find artistic
talent in stones and who were willing to put up with the mistakes of
an adult beginner.
"Thank you!"
*CRASH*
Randolph
Marc C Allain
(snippage)
>
>So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
>to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
>
Gee, there's so many. I'd love to trade almost all of my half-skills
to be good in one: Prime choices are programming (to get a good job,)
guitar, writing and game designing.
I guess, overall, that writing would be the one I would choose. It's
creatively fulfilling and earns money, too. Mostly, I love the idea of
creating entire worlds for other people to enter and love. Must be my
god-complex.
--
Marc C. Allain m...@christa.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mca
"I want to be Nobody when I grow up...because Nobody's perfect!"
Eric Allain - age 10.
Bart Hammerly
>
>What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess?
>Even to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
I, too, would like to have some artistic talent. As a no-loss trade, I
would give away my ability to stuff my foot in my mouth.
--
Phoenix
Don Callahan
> I will ALWAYS second a toast to a good teacher...they're worth MORE than their weight in gold!!!
> And a second toast:
> To ALL good teachers, everywhere...You inspire us...and we don't >forget you!
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Amen. May I add to the roster?
Mrs. Petitpren, a first grade teacher who made math more palatable for
me by bringing in books from home that _I_ could read if I did the work
(reading at a 6th grade level in a Dick and Jane class was torture)
Mr. Stacey, "Music Teacher for the Generations" who took kids from all
different types of background and had them playing beautiful music
together (Herb Alpert, Beethoven, Brahms, the Beatles and more)
Mr. Snead, who made science fun, and became my first teacher crush when
he told another student that no matter how terrible your project turned
out sabotage of another's work was unforgivable and would not be
tolerated
Mrs. Unis, homeroom teacher extraordinaire - who made a culture-shocked
girl from the 'burbs feel more at home in the big city...
Bless you all, and thank you!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Karen
Liana Olear
: On 13 Jun 1999 03:34:44 GMT, Rebecca Schoenberg
: <si...@hotblack.gweep.net> wrote:
: >
: >Banshee shakes her head. "I've had years of chorus class and art class and
: >trying to sing, trying to draw, trying to paint. I just can't.
: >
: >"It's something you're either born with the potential to learn, or you're SOL
: >for the rest of your life. Some people can learn it, some just can't. I
: >can't. I could spend the rest of my life in 12-hour-a-day lessons and still
: >die of old age unable to sing on key or draw anything beyond a smiley-face.
: >It's a fact of life...."
: "You are laying claim to a learning disability here. Perhaps...real
: disabilties do exist. But I suspect a teaching disability instead."
I am the same way, and I definitely can't pin the lack of my musical
ability on my teachers. Despite years of music lessons (singing, piano,
other stuff) the only subject that ever "took" was music theory. I might
carry a tune in a bucket, but it'd be as likely as not to spill it,
especially if I am attempting harmony. Unfortunatley, due to my
education, I can tell _exactly_ how bad I am doing. I just can't do any
better.
As for art... I can't draw a straight line, not even with a ruler. My
hand being able to transfer an image from my mind to paper is entirely too
much to ask for.
Liana,
who has learned to live with no artistic ability, but is a bit sorrry
about lack of musical talent
Matthew T. Russotto
Randolph Fritz <rand...@efn.org> wrote:
}On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:37:52 GMT, Matthew T. Russotto
}<russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
}>
}>Because math and high school level science and reading and certain
}>types of writing are fundamentally different than the creative arts
}>(which include certain types of writing).
}>
}
The latter require both creativity and skills not possessed by a
significant portion of the populace.
Arithmetic requires no creativity, nor does algebra. Reading
comprehension requires no creativity. High school level science (at
least until qualitative analysis in chemistry) requires no creativity.
Writing essays which merely spit back the information imparted in
class requires little creativity.
So-called "creative writing" -- you've got to come up with something
to write about, and invent enough detail to fill the assignment. Many
things lumped under "art" require a measure of physical dexterity and
coordination not possessed by many students, in addition to
creativity. Much art requires an ability to reduce 3D objects to 2D
lines, something which comes naturally to some but not at all to
others. Any playing of a musical instrument is going to require some
dexterity and coordination, and add to that a sense of rhythm.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
Liana Olear
: And the classes are only a waste of time if one can't enjoy *doing* without
: *doing perfectly*. I know you have been spending quite a lot of time
: striving for perfection for the sake of your patients, and that's definitely
: admirable---but eventually there will, I hope, be time which you can spend
: by being enjoyably *less* than perfect.
There are degrees to "less than perfect". I am, for instance, bad enough
at painting or drawing, that any attempt at such ability frustrates me.
When at school I was required to do "art", I grew to dread even trying,
since no matter how much I try, I'll be lucky to get away with a C-, and a
piece of paper I don't ever want to look at again. (later, when I had a
little more choice, I went for more and more music courses and was
thrilled that I didn't have to do any more "art"). I consider 90% of my
childhood attempts at art to be completley wasted time.
Liana
Cindy Wells
<snip>
>So-called "creative writing" -- you've got to come up with something
>to write about, and invent enough detail to fill the assignment.
Not always true. I handled one creative writing assignment by spending
2 hours with an encyclopedia - it was the fastest way I could
think of to gather a list of rhyming words. (It turned out to
be the history of computer languages.) More or less instant sonnet
when I was done. (My classmates and teacher thought it was great -
I freely admitted it was parroting details.)
My other "good poem" was actually creative - but just echoed
stuff I'd heard for years. (Described an eagle in flight)
Cindy Wells
Many
>things lumped under "art" require a measure of physical dexterity and
>coordination not possessed by many students, in addition to
>creativity. Much art requires an ability to reduce 3D objects to 2D
>lines, something which comes naturally to some but not at all to
>others. Any playing of a musical instrument is going to require some
>dexterity and coordination, and add to that a sense of rhythm.
>--
>Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
>"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
>of justice is no virtue."
--
Cindy Wells
(Grad - PChem - UIUC)
I have abandoned my search for truth and now I'm looking for ...
a good fantasy. (author: Ashleigh Brilliant)
Liana Olear
: Now we here in Callahan's have a mighty diverse group of extremely talented
: Folx...
: But it has seemed to me, that no matter how talented a person, there's
: always something, some skill, which he or she doesn't possess that they
: secretly wish they did.
<snip>
: So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
: What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
: to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
This is definitely a tough one for me to answer, since there isn't just
one thing.
*sigh* Unfortunately, to my best knowledge, I don't actually have _any_
particular skills at all. There is nothing that I can honestly claim to
be really good at. I used to think I was good at math - until I hit
calculus and found out different in a hurry. I am not bad at picking up
languages... but I forget them as fast as I acquire them. I used to be
decent at writing, but I never grew comfortable with doing much of that in
English, and after spkeaing (and thinking) primarily Enlighs for a few
years I tend to never be able to find the words I want in Russian either.
I am non-horrible in my chosen field (computers), but I tend to get bored
by techno-babbling (what kind of nerd does that make me...) I am
completely lousy at any kind of physical exertions, with possible
exception of dancing, which I enjoy, but am not great at.
To answer the question... I'll take any skill, in absolutely anything that
I am at all intersted in. And if I had to trade one in to get it, I think
I'd get turned away at the door.
Liana
Margaret Whittleton
>
> The Trinker <k...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com> wrote in article
> <37633C14...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com>...
>
Amen - to Miss Cosh, Miss MacDonald, Mr. Ingram, my Mom and Dad and a
number of other teachers who taught me a reat deal.
<<<<<<Crash>>>>>>
Marg
se...@nomaps.izzy.net
> There are degrees to "less than perfect". I am, for instance, bad enough
> at painting or drawing, that any attempt at such ability frustrates me.
> When at school I was required to do "art", I grew to dread even trying,
> since no matter how much I try, I'll be lucky to get away with a C-, and a
> piece of paper I don't ever want to look at again. (later, when I had a
> little more choice, I went for more and more music courses and was
> thrilled that I didn't have to do any more "art"). I consider 90% of my
> childhood attempts at art to be completley wasted time.
Wow, does that sound familiar.
--
Sandy se...@izzy.net
Be a trend-setter, take responsibility for the results of your actions.
I don't speak for anyone but myself, and sometimes not even that.
Liana Olear
: Dunno what I'd have to trade for them, but I'd like the facility with
: languages some people have, and a greater ease with complex
: mathmatics.
: I took German and Latin in high school, and found both to be opaque. I
: could memorize things, vocabulary and declensions and grammar, but they
: never really made sense. Some people seem to have a gift for re-
: setting their heads in another language. God help me if I'd had to
: learn English as a second tongue.
To me languages tend to make sense (well, except for English, I am
convinced that it's just nuts :) ), it's the vocabulary that's the
nuisance.
As for resetting brain to think in English... It was a matter of
necessity, not of choice (although I made the choice to accelerate the
process as much as I could)
Liana
se...@nomaps.izzy.net
> And the classes are only a waste of time if one can't enjoy *doing* without
> *doing perfectly*.
There's a huge difference between "not perfect" and "complete and utter
failure", which would be an understatement as a description of any sort
of artistic (in the sense of paint and paper, which is what our art classes
were) attempt of mine.
se...@nomaps.izzy.net
> On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:50:00 GMT, Janet D. Miles <jmi...@usit.net> wrote:
>>*appreciation* for the arts should be included in general education,
>>as well as opportunities (not requirements) for students to try
>>various modes of artistic expression, I suspect that requiring
>>artistic *production* of all students would very likely be as
>>soul-destroying as requiring athletic ability of all students
>>currently is.
> "Well, we could teach mathematics the same way, you know. That's what
> used to be done to girls.
Art skills aren't needed on a day-to-day basis.
se...@nomaps.izzy.net
> You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
> artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
> *anyone* can learn to draw.
This is a patently false statement, in my opinion and experience, and as
has been stated and seconded and thirded here many many times.
I can draft, with tools and a good table. I cannot draw. Period. I am
not alone in this.
jhe...@my-deja.com
Liana Olear <lol...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote:
> To me languages tend to make sense (well, except for English, I am
> convinced that it's just nuts :) ), it's the vocabulary that's the
> nuisance.
You think English is nuts? That demonstrates a true depth of
understanding achieved by few native speakers of the language.
> As for resetting brain to think in English... It was a matter of
> necessity, not of choice (although I made the choice to accelerate the
> process as much as I could)
>
People like you are disgusting.<G>
_That_ is the facility with language I was wishing for. You are very
lucky to have it.
--
Jim
"Build a better mousetrap and the world will build a better mouse."
Anon.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Lee S. Billings
says...
>
>russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
><snip>
>
>>So-called "creative writing" -- you've got to come up with something
>>to write about, and invent enough detail to fill the assignment.
>
>Not always true. I handled one creative writing assignment by spending
>2 hours with an encyclopedia - it was the fastest way I could
>think of to gather a list of rhyming words. (It turned out to
>be the history of computer languages.) More or less instant sonnet
>when I was done. (My classmates and teacher thought it was great -
>I freely admitted it was parroting details.)
Do you still have it around? I'd love to see it!
Lee S. Billings
lol...@cs.buffalo.edu says...
>Despite years of music lessons (singing, piano,
>other stuff) the only subject that ever "took" was music theory. I
might
>carry a tune in a bucket, but it'd be as likely as not to spill it,
>especially if I am attempting harmony. Unfortunatley, due to my
>education, I can tell _exactly_ how bad I am doing. I just can't do
>any better.
>
>Liana,
>who has learned to live with no artistic ability, but is a bit sorry
>about lack of musical talent
If you understand music theory -- and, more importantly, can *hear*
your own vocal problems -- then you are not completely without musical
talent. You just don't have performance ability, which is only one
subset of musicianship. But you might still be able to obtain some
music-related pleasure from composition or arranging. Have you ever
tried either of those?
Lee S. Billings
Let me add to this Ms. Currin, the ONE Phys Ed teacher I ever had who
graded students on effort rather than ability. She also had a unique
approach to the obligatory "gymnastics" unit: next to each piece of
equipment (trampoline, uneven bars, balance beam, horse, and tumbling
mats) she posted a list of possible routines and the grade we would get
for performing each one, and then left *us* to decide where to put our
efforts. And while I was spending most of every day trying to master a
basic headstand for the B+ mat routine, she never failed to come by
with a word of encouragement at least once per class period.
To Ms. Currin -- would that all Phys Ed teachers were like her!
\ /
* CRASH!!!!!!!!!!
/ \
JuJu Ben
>Liana Olear <lol...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>
>> There are degrees to "less than perfect". I am, for instance, bad enough
>> at painting or drawing, that any attempt at such ability frustrates me.
>> When at school I was required to do "art", I grew to dread even trying,
>> since no matter how much I try, I'll be lucky to get away with a C-, and a
>> piece of paper I don't ever want to look at again. (later, when I had a
>> little more choice, I went for more and more music courses and was
>> thrilled that I didn't have to do any more "art"). I consider 90% of my
>> childhood attempts at art to be completley wasted time.
>
>Wow, does that sound familiar.
Sounds like me, all through elementary and Jr. High... I got out of it
in H.S., thinking that it was pointless. Several years later, I took
a "drawing for people who can't draw" course with someone who actually
knew what they were doing. The right teacher makes a world of
difference. I'll never be great at it, but I still play around, and
some of the stuff isn't half bad. It's just a matter of learning all
the right tricks.
-----
Ben
A wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn.
Duane E. Peters
<SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
> The Trinker <k...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com> wrote in article
> <37633C14...@vincent-tanaka.spamtrap.com>...
>
> <...>
> > "So, anyway. To Mr. Wheeler. Because he believed in what he was
> > teaching, and because he was good at it. Thank you!"
> >
> >
> >
> > ***CRASH***
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> I will ALWAYS second a toast to a good teacher...they're worth MORE than
> their weight in gold!!!
> And a second toast:
> To ALL good teachers, everywhere...You inspire us...and we don't forget
> you!
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH!!!!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> gypsy
Master Charles looks at his glass and paraphrases Jimmy Durante.
"Good night, Mrs. Northington, wherever you are!"
<<<<<CRASH>>>>>
Master Charles Henri Beaufort
Keeper of the Crossed Keys Inn
(Who once thought of becoming a teacher, but who cannot manage to be
Politically Correct...)
Larisa Migachyov
> (posted and e-mailed)
>
> Larisa Migachyov wrote:
> >
> > gypsy wrote:
>
> > > What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> > > to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
> >
>
> You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
> artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
> *anyone* can learn to draw.
Well, true. And I can draw, to some degree. But talent does enter into
it - and the ability to define the shape of an object in 3 curved lines,
seemingly carelessly drawn, is something that definitely requires talent.
> (I apologize if I'm being too forward; your wish to draw may
> be like my wish to noodle around on my trumpet without sheet
> music ...I'm certain I could learn to do it, but haven't
> taken the time).
>
> But I've run into a lot of people who think that being able
> to draw is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition, and I
> challenge this idea when I can :>
Hmm. Depends on the level of drawing. I am an engineer, and thus I can
draw technical drawings reasonably well. But it takes me a lot of effort
to draw things. I can't visualize things easily, or simplify the image of
an object to the point of several sketched lines.
> More to the point, i think basic illustration skills can be
> taught in a few months, rather than the couple of years it
> might take me to learn to improvise on a musical
> instrument... Your Mileage May Vary...
Hmm. I've taken art classes in school, and have many books of the "learn
to draw" variety. None did any good for me. I think you underestimate
the amount of talent required. Or maybe I just haven't had good teachers.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
mae...@syrah.enteract.com
> I keep seeing singing, dancing and artistic ability...and wondering why,
> here in the states, when it comes to cutting programs to fit dwindling
> school budgets, these seem to be the first to go...
I'll treat this as a non-rhetorical question - I think there are two main
reasons.
The first is that there is still a huge Puritanical streak running through
our culture. Yeah, yeah, watching TV you wouldn't think so, on the surface
- but actually, I consider typical TV fare to be a symptom of the same
thing: look at all the guilty moans and groans about it. Anyway, there is a
long-standing attitude in America that things that are beautiful and fun
are somehow frivolous and useless and perhaps even lead to (gasp - say it
isn't so!) immorality.
The second is that there are usually more expenses associated with arts
classes than there are with regular classes. When funds are tight, you can
save more in the short run by eliminating classes with more expensive
supplies. This is also why field trips are early targets, IMO.
> Wouldn't it be nice to see some school administrator somewhere tap into
> this and realize that the "arts" are more than just a cultural expression
> that ought to be accessible to those who can afford them, but are actually
> a human need?
Yep. :)
maenad, who would give all her calligraphic skills to be able to accompany
herself while she sings
--
__Anna____________________________remove grape to reply__
Oh golly gee, a .sig file. fun is good!
---------------------------------------------------------
Larisa Migachyov
> [...in response to lots of expressed desires for basic artistic
> skills...]
>
> "With training and practice the basics of these things can be learned
> by most people. One won't necessarily become a great artist, but good
> enough to do at least some things, mostly, yes.
>
> "If there is one single thing I think is omitted in our standard
> education, it is the arts. In terms of satisfaction and self-esteem
> these things are of such enormous value that one can only wonder at a
> society that refuses to teach them to all its members."
Yes. And the sad thing is that the best way to attain facility in the
arts - in any art form - is to learn early. I derive immense satisfaction
from my piano playing; and things like reading music, sight-reading,
playing by ear, and other such things are natural to me because I started
early (age 4). I know people who started later in life; and they don't
find the above things very easy or fun.
Learning is what children's brains are made for; withholding information
and skills from a child that age is as much a crime as starving them.
Larisa Migachyov
> gypsy wrote:
>
> >>>>What skill is it that
> >>>>you would secretly like
> >>>>to be able to possess?
> >>>>Even to the point where
> >>>>you might trade another skill to have it?
>
>
> >>>The ability to draw.
>
> Erick Vermillion-Salsbury:
>
> >>You and Banshee both
> >>mentioned this one.
> >>
> >>As a commercial artist,
> >>I'd like to offer my opinion:
> >>to some degree,
> >>*anyone* can learn to draw.
> >>
> >>your wish to draw
> >>may be like my wish to
> >>noodle around on my trumpet
> >>without sheet music
> >>...I'm certain I could learn to do it,
> >>but haven't taken the time).
> >>
> >>But I've run into a lot of people
> >>who think that being able to draw
> >>is a you-have-it-or-you-don't proposition,
> >>and I challenge this idea when I can :>
> >>
> >>I think basic illustration skills
> >>rather than the couple of years
> >>it might take me
> >>to learn to improvise
> >>on a musical instrument...
> >>Your Mileage May Vary...
>
>
> Yuppers, Erick; at least, IMHO. :)
>
> IYDMMSayingSo, I think what might perhaps be lacking is more the *drive*
> to draw, than the *ability* to draw.
> (YMMV, however, of course;)
You obviously have not seen my wastepaper basket. :)
> I remember a brother-type friend:) of mine in Art School, who didn't
> seem to have quite as much Ability (at the time {{:-\) as I did.
>
> *But* he had *so very* much more Drive than I did, that he is now a
> happily successful, and creative, graphics-artist on his own.
> And a freelance one, at that.
> (Sigh)
>
> I think most people can prob'ly draw at least well enough to illustrate
> a basic *idea*; at least, I've seen some former clients of mine do it,
> when they were visiting whatever advertising-art-agency I happened to be
> working at the time.
> {{;-)
Oh, sure. I can produce an engineering drawing when required. And if
given an object, a pencil and paper, and enough time, I can probably draw
it well enough to be recognizable. But artistic decisions - does it look
better in this light or that light? Should I put the apple to the right
or to the left of the vase? Would this drawing look better with this
detail included or omitted? - such things are beyond me. And I don't
even mention things like drawing entirely from imagination - that I could
never do. Any copy machine can copy photographs, and any camera can take
pictures of what is - it takes visual imagination to find the best angle,
the best light, and the best arrangement of objects, and to draw it well.
Larisa Migachyov
Distribution:
evitsky wrote:
>
> And the classes are only a waste of time if one can't enjoy *doing* without
> *doing perfectly*. I know you have been spending quite a lot of time
> striving for perfection for the sake of your patients, and that's definitely
> admirable---but eventually there will, I hope, be time which you can spend
> by being enjoyably *less* than perfect.
Yes! And that is the hardest lesson to learn, IMO.
gypsy
Liana Olear <lol...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote in article
<7k3a87$3l$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>...
> gypsy <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
> : Now we here in Callahan's have a mighty diverse group of extremely
talented
> : Folx...
> : But it has seemed to me, that no matter how talented a person, there's
> : always something, some skill, which he or she doesn't possess that they
> : secretly wish they did.
> <snip>
> : So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
Even
> : to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
> one thing.
>
> *sigh* Unfortunately, to my best knowledge, I don't actually have _any_
> particular skills at all. There is nothing that I can honestly claim to
> be really good at. I used to think I was good at math - until I hit
> calculus and found out different in a hurry. I am not bad at picking up
> languages... but I forget them as fast as I acquire them. I used to be
> decent at writing, but I never grew comfortable with doing much of that
in
> English, and after spkeaing (and thinking) primarily Enlighs for a few
> years I tend to never be able to find the words I want in Russian either.
> I am non-horrible in my chosen field (computers), but I tend to get bored
> by techno-babbling (what kind of nerd does that make me...) I am
> completely lousy at any kind of physical exertions, with possible
> exception of dancing, which I enjoy, but am not great at.
>
> To answer the question... I'll take any skill, in absolutely anything
that
> I am at all intersted in. And if I had to trade one in to get it, I
think
> I'd get turned away at the door.
Beg to differ, Liana...IME you have the ability to express yourself VERY
well. You also have the ability to see more than one side to an issue.
Knowing that just those two exist, I'm certain there are more...and also
relatively certain you're being a bit too hard on yourself!!
gypsy
<p&e>
--
remove the pink stuff to reply
SPgy...@dimensional.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
back for a while, an hour or two...or maybe a day,
or a lifetime..... -g-
mae...@syrah.enteract.com
> "So, anyway. To Mr. Wheeler. Because he believed in what he was
> teaching, and because he was good at it. Thank you!"
> ***CRASH***
*c*r*a*s*h*
To Mr. Sina, who not only taught chorus but individually coached anyone who
asked and brought in his guitar and sand Harry Chapin songs at the Jr. High
Talent Show.
"You gave us more than music
More than notes and rhyme
More than phrasing
More than keeping time
You gave us love in a melody
A reason to be strong
And we will never be alone
You gave to us a song!" [1]
Thank you.
*c*r*a*s*h*
maenad
--
[1] Yeah, I know it's sappy - I was in jr. high!
gypsy
<7k3jtt$p14$1...@eve.enteract.com>...
> gypsy :
> > I keep seeing singing, dancing and artistic ability...and wondering
why,
> > here in the states, when it comes to cutting programs to fit dwindling
> > school budgets, these seem to be the first to go...
>
> I'll treat this as a non-rhetorical question - I think there are two main
> reasons.
>
> The first is that there is still a huge Puritanical streak running
through
> our culture. Yeah, yeah, watching TV you wouldn't think so, on the
surface
> - but actually, I consider typical TV fare to be a symptom of the same
> thing: look at all the guilty moans and groans about it. Anyway, there is
a
> long-standing attitude in America that things that are beautiful and fun
> are somehow frivolous and useless and perhaps even lead to (gasp - say it
> isn't so!) immorality.
>
Wow. I'm going to have to sit back and think about that for a second.
You've raised a possibility I never, even for a moment, considered before.
Question tho...IME -most- of the art existing in the world, if you count
everything done throughout the centuries, is of religious nature. Which is
why so many Art History courses seem to be riddled with churches and
icons...
How does that cross correlate?
I'm going to have to give this one some serious thought before responding
further...
> The second is that there are usually more expenses associated with arts
> classes than there are with regular classes. When funds are tight, you
can
> save more in the short run by eliminating classes with more expensive
> supplies. This is also why field trips are early targets, IMO.
>
Yeah...well, but sports programs are also extremely costly, and you don't
see them cutting Football...rather, they cut back on textbooks. :(-
> > Wouldn't it be nice to see some school administrator somewhere tap into
> > this and realize that the "arts" are more than just a cultural
expression
> > that ought to be accessible to those who can afford them, but are
actually
> > a human need?
>
> Yep. :)
>
> maenad, who would give all her calligraphic skills to be able to
accompany
> herself while she sings
Ooooh. I know this one! Right there with ya.
mae...@syrah.enteract.com
> In my case, it's less what I don't have than what I don't have enough
> of. I wish I had the discipline to play a musical instrument really
> well; I wish I had enough vocal volume to be heard in any venue larger
> than a living room without straining; I wish I hadn't let my voice go
> fallow for 10 years, resulting in pitch control problems I've never
> been able to get rid of (and didn't have in college).
Heh. Are you practicing enough? I did not realize until I was well out of
college that I will probably never sing that well again - and am even less
likely to sing with such a good group again.
But the reason is *practice*! I was vocalising at least an hour a day,
taking individual lessons twice a week and rehearsing with the choir
(40-voice touring choir) for yet another hour a day.
I don't have the time to do that now and when I sing I absolutely *cringe*
at the difference between the past and the present. And I can't just open
my mouth and sing at casual gatherings because I'm still too verdammte loud
but I don't have good control anymore.
maenad - I was a lousy student but enjoyed the hell out of my hobbies
*sigh* ;->
--
gypsy
Larisa Migachyov <l...@leland.Stanford.EDU> wrote in article
<7k3kou$kad$6...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>...
> Beth Jackson wrote:
> > gypsy wrote:
> >
> given an object, a pencil and paper, and enough time, I can probably draw
> it well enough to be recognizable. But artistic decisions - does it look
> better in this light or that light? Should I put the apple to the right
> or to the left of the vase? Would this drawing look better with this
> detail included or omitted? - such things are beyond me. And I don't
> even mention things like drawing entirely from imagination - that I could
> never do. Any copy machine can copy photographs, and any camera can take
> pictures of what is - it takes visual imagination to find the best angle,
> the best light, and the best arrangement of objects, and to draw it well.
>
> Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
Hmmm, Larisa...methinks this thread is suddenly treading close to the
perilous line of defining "Art"...
You have a point. I've met many an "artist" who was lacking in what I call
a sense of esthetics...He or she was "putting things together" but somehow,
they never evoked any emotion whatsoever from me. The ability to -draw- is
not necessarily the same ability as -creativity-... I've seen tons of
artwork that was technically well done, and yet lacked some intrinsic
quality that made you want to continue looking at it...
Hmmmm....
gypsy
mae...@syrah.enteract.com
> Hmm. I've taken art classes in school, and have many books of the "learn
> to draw" variety. None did any good for me. I think you underestimate
> the amount of talent required. Or maybe I just haven't had good teachers.
It is also possible that drafting is hurting you. I switched majors from
engineering to graphic design and it took me YEARS to unlearn my drafting
habits. Good orthogonal drafting skills make for *lousy* perspective
illustration.
maenad, offering a possible explanation
The Trinker
"Matthew T. Russotto" wrote:
>
> In article <slrn7m8p9u....@open.thedoor.nom>,
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@efn.org> wrote:
> }On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:37:52 GMT, Matthew T. Russotto
> }<russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
> }>
> }>Because math and high school level science and reading and certain
> }>types of writing are fundamentally different than the creative arts
> }>(which include certain types of writing).
> }>
> }
> }"In what way, Matthew?"
>
> The latter require both creativity and skills not possessed by a
> significant portion of the populace.
>
> Arithmetic requires no creativity, nor does algebra. Reading
> comprehension requires no creativity. High school level science (at
> least until qualitative analysis in chemistry) requires no creativity.
> Writing essays which merely spit back the information imparted in
> class requires little creativity.
>
> So-called "creative writing" -- you've got to come up with something
> to write about, and invent enough detail to fill the assignment. Many
> things lumped under "art" require a measure of physical dexterity and
> coordination not possessed by many students, in addition to
> creativity. Much art requires an ability to reduce 3D objects to 2D
> lines, something which comes naturally to some but not at all to
> others. Any playing of a musical instrument is going to require some
> dexterity and coordination, and add to that a sense of rhythm.
Sigh. Matthew, maybe you're using "creativity" to mean something
other than what I mean by it.
Arithmetic requires an abstraction of thought, as does the rest of
your list. The leap between counting concrete objects to using
squiggles to describe them is an abstraction. The ability to
extrapolate information from text, the ability to understand the
grouping of objects into categories, the ability to rephrase
statements in coherent order...
These tasks are not inherently "simpler" than taking an object
in 3-d and rendering it in another medium. People are constantly
"creating" new sentences to describe what they wish to convey.
None of the actions mentioned are necessarily *natural*.
The difference between the first group of activities and the second,
at least in my opinion, is that in this culture we do not emphasize
the tasks involved in the second group as much, or at as young an
age. Having a sense of rhythm isn't viewed as a critical skill, nor
is art or storytelling. They aren't viewed as skills which improve
with practice, either.
But if we were in a society where a sense of rhythm was a vital skill,
say a fishing community that used nets, or a community where rowing
was the primary means of transport...I think you'd see a difference
in the prevalence of "lack of rhythm" in the group.
Some people, yes, really do have difficulties with some of the tasks
involved, despite herculean efforts on their part. Others of us are
more likely cursed by the fact that we didn't get a chance to
exercise the "muscles" that would help us in certain tasks.
JMHO,
The Trinker
--
spam filtered. To send e-mail remove the spamtrap.
mae...@syrah.enteract.com
> everything done throughout the centuries, is of religious nature. Which is
> why so many Art History courses seem to be riddled with churches and
> icons...
> How does that cross correlate?
Well, I may back off and say "beautiful things not sanctioned/commissioned
for/by the established religion of the region". *g* But that's really
clunky.
> Yeah...well, but sports programs are also extremely costly, and you don't
> see them cutting Football...rather, they cut back on textbooks. :(-
S'true. But then again, for some schools Football is actually a
money-making venture. Ick.
maenad, who marched at halftime in a 15-year-old woolen beefeater-style
tall hat - can you say "old sweat"? I knew you could.
Eileen
gypsy wrote:
>
> Any language (math, English, French, music, art, COBOL, Fortran...you name
> it...) is an artificially constructed vehicle for expressing thoughts,
> ideas, concepts, and in some cases, emotion (all though NOT all go this
> far.) Given that, I'd have to say that I must take one step back...and say
> you're right that there is a slight difference...But I'd say less of a
> -fundamental- one than you propose.
>
> gypsy
>
And since we're discussing artistic versus scholastic efforts regarding
creativity may I add that an awful lot of programmers seem to be quite
creative. Not only sarcastically in "boy that was some creative code"
but in that many of the good ones come up with truely elegant artistic
solutions to problems.
-eileen (the chemist who weaves, dances and sews)
Eileen
"Lee S. Billings" wrote:
>
> If I could do that, then (barring physical difficulties) I don't see
> how anyone else would be unable to. Because there really is no person
> here with less drawing-and-painting talent than me!
>
> Celine
>
I'll take that challenge:
O
-||-
||
/\
self portrait... not quite to scale and I don't think the eyebrows are
quite right.
-Eileen (whose creative outlet is sewing)
Eileen
Rebecca Schoenberg wrote:
>I could spend the rest of my life in 12-hour-a-day lessons and still
> die of old age unable to sing on key or draw anything beyond a smiley-face.
> It's a fact of life...."
Awh come on. You can't tell me you're wasting your education
completely. I'm sure you could draw a liver or spleen if you wanted.
Maybe even a nerve or blood vessel. *grin* How about a stomach with
scratches from the cat that was napping and launched when the doorbell
rang?
-Eileen (who can draw methane)
The Trinker
Liana Olear wrote:
>
> gypsy <SPgy...@dimensional.com> wrote:
> : Now we here in Callahan's have a mighty diverse group of extremely talented
> : Folx...
> : But it has seemed to me, that no matter how talented a person, there's
> : always something, some skill, which he or she doesn't possess that they
> : secretly wish they did.
> <snip>
> : So here's the question, oh many-talented Patrons-at-large:
>
> : What skill is it that you would secretly like to be able to possess? Even
> : to the point where you might trade another skill to have it?
>
> This is definitely a tough one for me to answer, since there isn't just
> one thing.
>
> *sigh* Unfortunately, to my best knowledge, I don't actually have _any_
> particular skills at all. There is nothing that I can honestly claim to
> be really good at. I used to think I was good at math - until I hit
> calculus and found out different in a hurry. I am not bad at picking up
> languages... but I forget them as fast as I acquire them. I used to be
> decent at writing, but I never grew comfortable with doing much of that in
> English, and after spkeaing (and thinking) primarily Enlighs for a few
> years I tend to never be able to find the words I want in Russian either.
Calculus? I'm reminded of a quote from a high school friend.
"Everything that ends in -ish is imprecise: noon-ish, English,
Calculish..." It was my rubicon, too. I've since concluded
that I'd have done better with better instruction. (There are,
in fact Patrons whom I think would make excellent calculus tutors.)
And languages? One tends to forget them in something like half
the time it takes one to learn them. The real question is whether
one is capable of resurrecting the facility in that language after
a hiatus. (What I mean is that I took French for 4 years, became
fluent, and then didn't use it for another 10. Being immersed in
a francophone environment brought back my rusty French in a short
while...)
And if I wrote in *any* other language as well as you do in English
as your second language, Liana...
> I am non-horrible in my chosen field (computers), but I tend to get bored
> by techno-babbling (what kind of nerd does that make me...) I am
> completely lousy at any kind of physical exertions, with possible
> exception of dancing, which I enjoy, but am not great at.
Being a decent dancer is nothing to sniff at, and not liking to
techno-babble for hours? That makes you an interesting
conversationalist. And probably someone who'd be capable of
writing decent documentation for software or procedures. Not a skill
to be sniffed at--there's a raftful of programmers I'd *love to give
that skill to!
The Trinker
suspecting that many people don't always see how special their own
skills are.
The Trinker
se...@nomaps.izzy.net wrote:
>
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@efn.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:50:00 GMT, Janet D. Miles <jmi...@usit.net> wrote:
> >>Anyway, I'll second her on this one: while I certainly agree that
> >>*appreciation* for the arts should be included in general education,
> >>as well as opportunities (not requirements) for students to try
> >>various modes of artistic expression, I suspect that requiring
> >>artistic *production* of all students would very likely be as
> >>soul-destroying as requiring athletic ability of all students
> >>currently is.
>
> > "Well, we could teach mathematics the same way, you know. That's what
> > used to be done to girls.
>
> Art skills aren't needed on a day-to-day basis.
Two points:
1) Are math skills needed on a day-to-day basis?
2) The ability to take in visual input and react to it and assign
meaning to it is a *skill*, albeit one that develops in
infancy. The ability to look at something and create a
completely *realistic* interpretation is akin to perfect
pitch, perhaps, but the ability to look at it and deal with
it abstractly is a normal human behavior.[1]
[1] if you don't believe me, you might want to read Oliver Sacks'
work on brain disorders to see just how abnormal the inability to
do so is.
The Trinker
who thinks the problem is usually in the teaching technique
and the grading criteria, not in the idea of exposing a child
to artistic expression.
Liana Olear
: In article <7k3anv$f8$1...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
: Liana Olear <lol...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote:
: > To me languages tend to make sense (well, except for English, I am
: > convinced that it's just nuts :) ), it's the vocabulary that's the
: > nuisance.
: You think English is nuts? That demonstrates a true depth of
: understanding achieved by few native speakers of the language.
*grin*
: > As for resetting brain to think in English... It was a matter of
: > necessity, not of choice (although I made the choice to accelerate the
: > process as much as I could)
: >
: People like you are disgusting.<G>
Thank you. *curtsey*
: _That_ is the facility with language I was wishing for. You are very
: lucky to have it.
I think if you were stuffed into an environment where all the
communication had to occur in a foreign language (one you are slightly
familiar with), you were expected to write papers and take tests in it,
and you more or less had to compete with native speakers, you'd pick it up
in a few years too. Especially if you had nothing to read at all
except in that language. (Imagine 6 months with absolutely no reading
material except a single science fiction novel that you have
semi-memorized before the time period, a small volume of essays by a
French philosopher, a mathematical formulas book and a newspaper every few
weeks. Now imagine having a whole library-full of books suddenly available...
With the single catch that the books are in a language you barely speak.
Trust me, you learn :) )
Yes, I am better at languages than most. I also had one heck of
motivation with English. By the way, my English improved greatly when I
started dating in it. :)
Liana
The Trinker
se...@nomaps.izzy.net wrote:
>
> Erick Vermillion-Salsbury <er...@pop3.concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > You and Banshee both mentioned this one. As a commercial
> > artist, I'd like to offer my opinion: to some degree,
> > *anyone* can learn to draw.
>
> This is a patently false statement, in my opinion and experience, and as
> has been stated and seconded and thirded here many many times.
>
> I can draft, with tools and a good table. I cannot draw. Period. I am
> not alone in this.
How are we defining "draw" ? Creating realistic representations
in 2D? Or the ability to get the concept across well enough to
play Pictionary?
The Trinker
Eileen
"The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)" wrote:
>
> Beth Jackson wrote in message
> <7179-376...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
>
> Canary:
>
> 88
> 888
> 8888888888
> 888888888888
> 88888888888888888
> 8888888888888888888888888
> 888888888888888888888888888
> 88888888888888888888888888
> 88888888888888
> 888888888888888
> 88888888888888888
> 8888888888888888888
> 88888888888888888888
> 88888888888888888888
> 888888888888888888888
>
> (Sighhh... Well, so much for tryin' to make a picture of a horse's
> silhouette...! {:-\)
>
> You did very well. I recognized it instantly, before I scrolled down to
> your explanation.
>
seconded. I immediately interpreted it as a chess piece and when I got
to the bottom and saw no base converted to horse head.
-Eileen (who can draw a moon o see.... )