Curiosity: Military Rank
Xander Opal
bar, then turns to the Patronage At Large, Medium, and Skinny.
"An incident on the radio the other day made me curious: the DJ was talking
to a Marine on the phone (I STR he being a Marine, at any rate), and
mistakenly called him the wrong rank... and was Corrected (Capital letter on
purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what they
mean to me?"
Xander Opal
Be excellent to each other!
Bill Gawne
Xander Opal:
> "An incident on the radio the other day made me curious: the DJ was talking
> to a Marine on the phone (I STR he being a Marine, at any rate), and
> mistakenly called him the wrong rank... and was Corrected (Capital letter on
> purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
> knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what they
> mean to me?"
The Marine at the end of the bar walks over, grabs a few napkins
to make notes on, and sits down next to Xander.
"In the US Armed Forces, ranks differ by Branch of Service, such
as Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard... although
there is some overlap. The broad similarities would be that every
branch of service has enlisted personnel - typically doing what
would be called 'blue collar' work in the civilian world - and
commissioned officers who are more like 'white collar' executives."
"In the US Marine Corps the lowest enlisted rank is Private. A
Marine Private is pay grade E-1, and gets the same pay as an Army
Private or a Navy Seaman Recruit, or an Air Force Airman Basic.
Going up in the enlisted ranks of the Corps, the next one is
Private First Class (E-2), Lance Corporal (E-3), Corporal (E-4),
Sergeant (E-5), Staff Sergeant (E-6), Gunnery Sergeant (E-7),
Master Sergeant and First Sergeant (both E-8), and finally
Master Gunnery Sergeant and Sergeant Major (both E-9)."
"Now that can be kind of confusing, especially when you notice that
you can have two different ranks at the same paygrade, and similar
complications. It's even a little more confusing for the uninitiated
when you add in the fact that in the Army, a Private First Class is
paygrade E-3, whereas a Marine PFC is paygrade E-2, and the Army
doesn't have any Lance Corporals. Air Force Sergeants are paygrade
E-4, AF Staff Sergeants are E-4, and AF Master Sergeants are E-7.
Which further complicates the issues. The Army also has some
parallel Specialist ranks that I'm going to let Mike Muth address,
and their E-7 rank is called Sergeant First Class, where we
Marines have Gunnery Sergeant."
"But wait, there's more!"
"In the Navy, the enlisted rank structure is Seaman Recruit(E-1),
Seaman Basic(E-2), Seaman(E-3), Petty Officer 3rd Class(E-4),
Petty Officer 2nd Class (E-5), Petty Officer 1st Class(E-6),
Chief Petty Officer (E-7), Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8),
and Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9). I *think* the Coast Guard
has the same ranks, but I'll let Sailor Jim handle that particular
issue."
"Then, we have Warrant Officers. By some miracle, all services
seem to have almost the same Warrant Officer ranks, W-1 through
W-5. I'm pretty sure that any Warrant Officer above W-1 is
called a Chief Warrant Officer. In the USMC, a Warrant Officer
in combat arms who wears a bursting bomb on his collar is
properly called a Marine Gunner, and a W-5 of that subgroup
is a Master Gunner. The other services may have subgroupings
of Warrant Officers too, though I don't know of any special
terms for them. The Army uses Warrant Officer ranks for their
helicopter pilots. The Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force don't
have warrant or enlisted pilots these days, though the Corps
used to up through WW II."
"Ranking above the Warrant Officers are the Commissioned
Officers, called such because they have a commission - a
signed letter of appointment - from the President, and they
serve at the pleasure of the President rather than for a
fixed term of years. Taking the Marine Corps officer rank
structure from the bottom up, we start with a Second
Lieutenant (pay grade O-1), First Lieutenant (O-2), Captain (O-3),
Major (O-4), Lieutenant Colonel (O-5), Colonel (O-6),
Brigadier General (O-7), Major General (O-8), Lieutenant
General (O-9), and General (O-10)."
"Those same names for the officer ranks apply in the US
Air Force and Army too. Though the Navy uses Ensign,
Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander,
Commander, Captain, Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral,
and Admiral."
"Now, what does all that mean to you?" Bill says, looking
up to see if Xander is still with him.
"Well, it can get complicated, especially if you examine
the exceptions. But as a general rule, things work something
like this: The smallest unit is a Fireteam, led by a Corporal.
Three fireteams make a squad, led by a Sergeant. Three squads
make a platoon, led by a Lieutenant (either 2nd or 1st), with
a Staff Sergeant as Platoon Sergeant, someone who helps the
Lieutenant run the Platoon and hopefully also keeps the
Lieutenant out of trouble. Next, three 'line' platoons and
a headquarters platoon make a Company, commanded by a Captain
who also has a Company Gunnery Sergeant, a First Sergeant,
and a couple of other Gunnery Sergeants and Staff Sergeants
handling things like Supply, Admin, and the like. Again, the
senior enlisted people are there to help the Commanding
Officer to run the unit. A company also has an Executive
Officer, typically a 1st Lieutenant, who covers for the CO
when the CO is out of the area."
"At the next level, three Companies plus a Headquarters and
Service Company make up a Battalion. The Battalion Commander
is typically a Lieutenant Colonel, who will have four Majors
assisting as staff officers, as well as a Sergeant Major and
several Master Sergeants or possibly Master Gunnery Sergeants
as the 'Chiefs' of the Battalion functional areas. Three
Battalions plus a H&S battalion will form a Regiment, commanded
by a Colonel, who has Lieutenant Colonels as staff officers,
and Master Gunnery Sergeants as Chiefs of functional areas,
and a Regimental Sergeant Major."
"Finally, Marine Regiments are formed into Marine Divisions
of three 'line' Regiments each, plus an Artillery Regiment,
plus a Division Headquarters Battalion, plus a Division
Service Battalion. The Marine Division is commanded by
a Major General, who has Colonels as staff officers and
the usual complement of senior enlisted Non-commissioned
Officers as functional staff area chiefs."
Bill pauses for a breath.
"Now, above THAT level, you're getting into very rare air.
Divisions - and their supporting Force Service Support Groups
and Air Wings which I haven't even talked about - are all
part of Fleet Marine Forces. There's FMF Atlantic, and FMF
Pacific. Those are both commanded by Lieutenant Generals,
with the usual staff structure. Finally there's an overall
Commandant of the Marine Corps, who is a full General."
"That isn't all of it. Just the core of the Corps. But it
should give you a decent idea of how the ranks all fit together."
"There are also Marine Generals who command Joint Forces, made
up of members from all services. US Central Command, the
force that ran the Gulf War, alternates between and Army General
and a Marine General. US Space Command is generally run by
an Air Force General, but can also be commanded by a Navy
Admiral. At the high echelons of command things can get
pretty interesting..."
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> |
Astronomer at Large - Retired Master Sergeant USMCR - Nothing I
post represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne
Xander Opal
Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:3A3A6D8E...@pha.jhu.edu...
> [p&e]
(ditto)
> Xander Opal:
> > "An incident on the radio the other day made me curious: the DJ was
talking
> > to a Marine on the phone (I STR he being a Marine, at any rate), and
> > mistakenly called him the wrong rank... and was Corrected (Capital
letter on
> > purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
> > knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what
they
> > mean to me?"
>
> The Marine at the end of the bar walks over, grabs a few napkins
> to make notes on, and sits down next to Xander.
<snip of rather fascinating information>
"Thanks, Bill-- I'd say you earned that drink! Saving your information, and
printing it out, as well-- if I ever do any writing involving military
things, that'll be a fair reference. Would you recommend any texts, that
would further sate any desire for more detail?"
Bill Gawne
> > The Marine at the end of the bar walks over, grabs a few napkins
> > to make notes on, and sits down next to Xander.
>
> <snip of rather fascinating information>
Xander:
> "Thanks, Bill-- I'd say you earned that drink! Saving your information, and
> printing it out, as well-- if I ever do any writing involving military
> things, that'll be a fair reference. Would you recommend any texts, that
> would further sate any desire for more detail?"
There's a book, SERVICE ETIQUETTE, which lists all US and Allied
service ranks, showing pictures of rank insignia. It also discusses
a lot of other stuff that you probably have no wish to know, such
as when it is appropriate for a woman officer to wear a tiarra
for a formal event and suchlike trivia. So if you can find a copy
in a library that's probably a better choice. You might also check
the websites of the various services.
Joyce Melton
>The other services may have subgroupings
>of Warrant Officers too, though I don't know of any special
>terms for them.
I believe Army boat and ship (river boats and engineering ships)
pilots and warrant officers have specialized names for ranks, but I
could be wrong.
When did they add a W-5 rank? It only went up to W-4 in 1971.
Joyce
Joyce Melton
>"Those same names for the officer ranks apply in the US
>Air Force and Army too. Though the Navy uses Ensign,
>Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander,
>Commander, Captain, Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral,
>and Admiral."
A cute one here is a Commodore is only called a Commodore if he is in
certain specialized tasks, commanding a flotilla in war time or
certain shore installations. Otherwise he is called Captain, sometimes
a Senior Captain, or that was the way it was when I served in the Army
in the seventies and had the Navy ranks explained to me. Unless he is
doing a Commodore's job, he wears the Captain's eagle instead of the
Commodore's single star. I thought it was pretty weird which is why I
remembered it. :) The other oddity of Navy ranks is that if onboard a
ship, an Army, Marine or Air Force captain would be referred to as
Major in many situations. That from Heinlein and a couple of other
sources.
Joyce
Joyce Melton
> It also discusses
>a lot of other stuff that you probably have no wish to know, such
>as when it is appropriate for a woman officer to wear a tiarra
>for a formal event and suchlike trivia.
LOL. Cool. Though I never made officer, the idea of wearing a tiara
with my uniform just seems really cool. I'd guess that would be with
Full Dress White or Black? The sort of thing one wears to an Embassy
Ball.
Joyce
Bill Gawne
> A cute one here is a Commodore is only called a Commodore if he is in
> certain specialized tasks, commanding a flotilla in war time or
> certain shore installations. Otherwise he is called Captain, sometimes
> a Senior Captain, or that was the way it was when I served in the Army
> in the seventies and had the Navy ranks explained to me. Unless he is
> doing a Commodore's job, he wears the Captain's eagle instead of the
> Commodore's single star.
Well, now a Navy one-star is a "Rear Admiral, lower half". A Commodore
is either a one-star who commands his own detatched squadron, or in
rare cases a Captain who has been temporarily promoted to one-star
rank for the purpose of commanding a detatched squadron.
> I thought it was pretty weird which is why I
> remembered it. :)
It is.
> The other oddity of Navy ranks is that if onboard a
> ship, an Army, Marine or Air Force captain would be referred to as
> Major in many situations. That from Heinlein and a couple of other
> sources.
Correct. There's only one Captain aboard a ship, and it sure is not
any ground pounder.
Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
(Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@abs.net>
Bill Gawne
> When did they add a W-5 rank? It only went up to W-4 in 1971.
Around 1990. I knew one of the first W-5 Marine Gunners
at Quantico when I was there in '92.
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@abs.net>
Bill Gawne
> LOL. Cool. Though I never made officer, the idea of wearing a tiara
> with my uniform just seems really cool. I'd guess that would be with
> Full Dress White or Black? The sort of thing one wears to an Embassy
> Ball.
Yes. The tiarra is worn with the Evening Dress uniform, which
includes an ankle length black skirt and medals worn on the blue
dress cutaway jacket. Alternatively, the tiarra will be worn by
a female field grade or general officer who chooses to attend such
a function wearing an evening gown with miniature medals.
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@abs.net>
Hecate
wrote:
>"There are also Marine Generals who command Joint Forces, made
>up of members from all services. US Central Command, the
>force that ran the Gulf War, alternates between and Army General
>and a Marine General. US Space Command is generally run by
>an Air Force General, but can also be commanded by a Navy
>Admiral. At the high echelons of command things can get
>pretty interesting..."
And then, of course, there's the British way of doing things.....
<vbg>
Hecate
Sapphic Wench
hec...@bigfoot.com
D.J.
[p&e]
Bill Gawne wrote:
[]Joyce:
[]> A cute one here is a Commodore is only called a Commodore if he is in
[]> certain specialized tasks, commanding a flotilla in war time or
[]> certain shore installations. Otherwise he is called Captain, sometimes
[]> a Senior Captain, or that was the way it was when I served in the Army
[]> in the seventies and had the Navy ranks explained to me. Unless he is
[]> doing a Commodore's job, he wears the Captain's eagle instead of the
[]> Commodore's single star.
[]
[]Well, now a Navy one-star is a "Rear Admiral, lower half". A Commodore
[]is either a one-star who commands his own detatched squadron, or in
[]rare cases a Captain who has been temporarily promoted to one-star
[]rank for the purpose of commanding a detatched squadron.
Yeah, a Commodore was in charge of the destroyer squadron my ship
was part of. I don't remember the exact makeup, but we had about 8
ships. Some WW 2 DDs converted for more modern usage with newer
elecrtronics, etc.; two DDGs, and 1-2 DDEs of the 10xx types.
[]> The other oddity of Navy ranks is that if onboard a
[]> ship, an Army, Marine or Air Force captain would be referred to as
[]> Major in many situations. That from Heinlein and a couple of other
[]> sources.
[]
[]Correct. There's only one Captain aboard a ship, and it sure is not
[]any ground pounder.
Definately !
There is only one Captain aboard a ship, and that person is In
Charge.
[]Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
[]a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
[](Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
Barbary pirates era ?
D.J.
--
djim55 at tyhe datasync dot com. Disclaimer: Standard.
My Web pages Updated: December 3, 2000:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/updated.html
Registered Linux user#185746
Bill Gawne
> []Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
> []a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
> [](Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
DJ:
> Barbary pirates era ?
A bit later than that, but not by a whole lot.
I'll have to look up the specifics, but the occurrance was during
the War of 1812 in the Pacific. An American squadron operating
off the west coast of South America captured several British
whaling ships and Letter of Marque privateers. The Commodore
of the Squadron placed a Marine Captain, who had prior service
as a naval midshipman, in command of one of the captured
privateers. He served in command for several months, including
a few ship-to-ship actions.
The more conservative Admirals almost choked on their outrage when
they learned of it. Subsequently, naval regulations were written
specifically prohibiting Marine officers from serving in command
of US warships, even in the case of prizes, and irrespective of
seamanship skill. As far as I know, there is no such prohibition
for Army or Air Force officers.
John Hayes
> LOL. Cool. Though I never made officer, the idea of wearing a tiara
> with my uniform just seems really cool. I'd guess that would be with
> Full Dress White or Black? The sort of thing one wears to an Embassy
> Ball.
Bill:
> Yes. The tiarra is worn with the Evening Dress uniform, which
> includes an ankle length black skirt and medals worn on the blue
> dress cutaway jacket. Alternatively, the tiarra will be worn by
> a female field grade or general officer who chooses to attend such
> a function wearing an evening gown with miniature medals.
Definitely -- a ball like that is one of the few times that the Dinner Dress
(White/Blue) Jacket is the _required_ uniform for an event. (Although
usually optional for junior officers, O-3 and below.)
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/johnhayes/navy/pics.html for (rather large, sorry)
pictures of Rae and I at the Navy B-Day Ball in October, and a page from the
uniform catalog showing what female Dinner Dress (Blue and White) Jacket
uniform looks like... and the model wearing white has the regulation tiara.
John Hayes
Kris Overstreet
wrote:
>purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
>knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what they
>mean to me?"
I'd appreciate clarification on enlisted ranks, but officer rankings
ar, with comparative authority command level:
ARMY - AIR FORCE - MARINES
2nd Lieutenant - commands squad or platoon
1st Lieutenant - commands squad, platoon or company
Captain - commands company
Major - commands company or battalion
Lieutenant Colonel - commands battalion or regiment
Colonel - commands regiment
Brigadier General - commands brigade
Major General - commands divisision
Lieutenant General - commands army
General - commands armed force
Field Marshal/General of the Army - commands anything he damn well
pleases (mostly obsolete rank)
NAVY
Ensign - commands his shoe polish
Lieutenant J. G. - commands a rowboat
Lieutenant - commands away party, prize crew, patrol boat
Lieutenant Commander - commands destroyer
Commander - commands cruiser
Captain - commands anything bigger
Commodore - commands multiple ships; also denotes a captain visiting
another captain's ship
Rear Admiral - commands multiple ships, e. g. carrier groups
Vice Admiral - commands full task forces
Admiral - commands fleets
Fleet Admiral - commands all the fleets
Grand Admiral - commands the nurse at the old folk's home }:-{D
That's how I was given to understand it.
Redneck (not a military man, I only play one on IRC)
D.J.
[p&e]
Bill Gawne wrote:
[]DJ:
[]> Barbary pirates era ?
[]
[]A bit later than that, but not by a whole lot.
Well, yeah, it couldn't be much later as you noted.
[]I'll have to look up the specifics, but the occurrance was during
[]the War of 1812 in the Pacific. An American squadron operating
[]off the west coast of South America captured several British
[]whaling ships and Letter of Marque privateers. The Commodore
[]of the Squadron placed a Marine Captain, who had prior service
[]as a naval midshipman, in command of one of the captured
[]privateers. He served in command for several months, including
[]a few ship-to-ship actions.
Right. Commanding Officer on the spot chose who he felt could do the
job.
[]The more conservative Admirals almost choked on their outrage when
[]they learned of it. Subsequently, naval regulations were written
[]specifically prohibiting Marine officers from serving in command
[]of US warships, even in the case of prizes, and irrespective of
[]seamanship skill. As far as I know, there is no such prohibition
[]for Army or Air Force officers.
Yup. I'm sure they went well ballistic over it.
I hate to say this, but it sounds like Admirals who have been
pushing a desk so long, they forgot about 'field expediency'
situations.
Josh Jasper
Bill Gawne wrote:
>
> I asked:
> > []Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
> > []a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
> > [](Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
>
> DJ:
> > Barbary pirates era ?
>
> A bit later than that, but not by a whole lot.
>
> I'll have to look up the specifics, but the occurrance was during
> the War of 1812 in the Pacific. An American squadron operating
> off the west coast of South America captured several British
> whaling ships and Letter of Marque privateers. The Commodore
> of the Squadron placed a Marine Captain, who had prior service
> as a naval midshipman, in command of one of the captured
> privateers. He served in command for several months, including
> a few ship-to-ship actions.
>
> The more conservative Admirals almost choked on their outrage when
> they learned of it. Subsequently, naval regulations were written
> specifically prohibiting Marine officers from serving in command
> of US warships, even in the case of prizes, and irrespective of
> seamanship skill. As far as I know, there is no such prohibition
> for Army or Air Force officers.
>
"You mean a Marine officer, if he captured it, could command an army
ship?" Josh asks, with a <Yes, I am being a prat> grin on his face. "I
didn't even know the army *had* warships."
--
The chief difficulty Alice found at first was in managing her flamingo.
-Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
David C. Kifer
>
> I asked:
> > []Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
> > []a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
> > [](Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
>
> DJ:
> > Barbary pirates era ?
>
> A bit later than that, but not by a whole lot.
>
> I'll have to look up the specifics, but the occurrance was during
> the War of 1812 in the Pacific. An American squadron operating
> off the west coast of South America captured several British
> whaling ships and Letter of Marque privateers. The Commodore
> of the Squadron placed a Marine Captain, who had prior service
> as a naval midshipman, in command of one of the captured
> privateers. He served in command for several months, including
> a few ship-to-ship actions.
Lt. John Marshall Gamble, placed in charge of the captured 10-gun
whaler, the _Greenwich_, by Navy Captain David Porter, in May 1813.
He commanded until May 1814, when he was captured and set adrift
in a small boat by mutineers (prisoners and foreign-born crew).
Leaving out some detail, Gamble and three other men eventually
managed to make it to Hawaii, where he found a ship to take him
home. It was captured, and Gamble was held in Rio de Janeiro until
the war ended. He finally reached New York 34 months after leaving
it. The Corps promoted him to Captain, and eventually to Lt. Colonel.
He died in 1836 from lingering effects of his Pacific cruise.
[I cheated; I have a history of the Corps right beside the computer.
And I was fortunate enough to find the story in the first thirty
or so pages... :-)> ]
--
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(Et brevis pecunia.) [Et breve spatium.]
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
I believe the rank of Captain in the Navy is roughly equivalent to
Colonel in the other services. Thus, they are usually referred to as
"Captain of the Navy" to distinguish from the lower rank with the same
name in the other services.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) "There are no good plan Bs. If
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/ they were good, they'd be plan A."
http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/ -- The Magic School Bus
D.J.
[p&e]
David C. Kifer wrote:
[]Lt. John Marshall Gamble, placed in charge of the captured 10-gun
[]whaler, the _Greenwich_, by Navy Captain David Porter, in May 1813.
[]He commanded until May 1814, when he was captured and set adrift
Gracias !
BOYC ?
Leonard Erickson
kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Said
Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> writes:
> Joyce:
>> The other oddity of Navy ranks is that if onboard a
>> ship, an Army, Marine or Air Force captain would be referred to as
>> Major in many situations. That from Heinlein and a couple of other
>> sources.
>
> Correct. There's only one Captain aboard a ship, and it sure is not
> any ground pounder.
I seem to recall that it gets even weirder on the really small ships
where the "captain of the ship" may not have the rank of Captain.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Nemo) kal...@krypton.rain.com
"No, I will _not_ move your planet... What do you want to move it _for_?
It's fine right where it is!"
-- Dairine Callahan, Wizard (no relation)
jhe...@my-deja.com
Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
<snipped>
> The Army also has some
> parallel Specialist ranks that I'm going to let Mike Muth address,
> and their E-7 rank is called Sergeant First Class, where we
> Marines have Gunnery Sergeant."
Since Mike hasn't yet chimed in, I'll take a stab at the specialist
ranks. They're simple -- Specialist 4 is pay grade E4, etc, up to
Specialist 7. These ranks are not strictly equivalent to Corporal,
Sergeant, and so forth, because a Specialist rank is not supposed to be
in the combat chain of command. As a Spec 5, I theoretically only had
authority in technical fields, such as schools or depot maintenance.
In reality, I knew Spec 4 and Spec 5 infantry troops who were holding
down combat platoon positions. Don't ask me why.
Warrant officers were in a comparable position -- officers by warrant
of their duties, rather than by commission of congress. You had to
have some kind of officer commanding an independent ship, such as a
chopper, but you didn't want him ever in a position of command over
ground troops. He (or she, these days) didn't have the training for it.
(All data is current only to the 1970s -- like Joyce, I had never heard
of a W-5 rating.)
--
Jim
"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart"
Lois McMaster Bujold
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Bill Gawne
> > I asked:
> > > []Trivia question for whomever cares to take it: When was the last time
> > > []a Marine Officer served as the Captain of an American flagged ship?
> > > [](Hint: it was prior to the US Civil War.)
> >
> > DJ:
> > > Barbary pirates era ?
> >
> > A bit later than that, but not by a whole lot.
> >
> > I'll have to look up the specifics, but the occurrance was during
> > the War of 1812 in the Pacific. An American squadron operating
> > off the west coast of South America captured several British
> > whaling ships and Letter of Marque privateers. The Commodore
> > of the Squadron placed a Marine Captain, who had prior service
> > as a naval midshipman, in command of one of the captured
> > privateers. He served in command for several months, including
> > a few ship-to-ship actions.
Dave Kifer, USMC:
> Lt. John Marshall Gamble, placed in charge of the captured 10-gun
> whaler, the _Greenwich_, by Navy Captain David Porter, in May 1813.
> He commanded until May 1814, when he was captured and set adrift
> in a small boat by mutineers (prisoners and foreign-born crew).
> Leaving out some detail, Gamble and three other men eventually
> managed to make it to Hawaii, where he found a ship to take him
> home. It was captured, and Gamble was held in Rio de Janeiro until
> the war ended. He finally reached New York 34 months after leaving
> it. The Corps promoted him to Captain, and eventually to Lt. Colonel.
> He died in 1836 from lingering effects of his Pacific cruise.
> [I cheated; I have a history of the Corps right beside the computer.
> And I was fortunate enough to find the story in the first thirty
> or so pages... :-)> ]
"Mike! Dave wins the six-pack of Tun Tavern Lager." Bill says.
"Thanks Dave. I'd forgotten the bit about him being captured and
spending the rest of the war in Rio."
"And," Bill adds, "It's amazing that anyone would have questioned
David Porter's naval judgement. He was one of the legendary Captains
of the early US Navy. But I suppose Nelson caught flack from the
British Admiralty too..."
Bill Gawne
> > Correct. There's only one Captain aboard a ship, and it sure is not
> > any ground pounder.
Leonard:
> I seem to recall that it gets even weirder on the really small ships
> where the "captain of the ship" may not have the rank of Captain.
True. The Captain of a given ship may hold any naval officer's rank.
But once that officer has been 'read in' as Captain, then the only
proper form of address is "Captain" until such time as there is a
change of command.
An example mentioned a while back is that the Captains of attack
submarines typically hold the rank of Commander (pay grade O-5).
dennywS...@zipcon.net
forth, saying:
> The other oddity of Navy ranks is that if onboard a
>ship, an Army, Marine or Air Force captain would be referred to as
>Major in many situations. That from Heinlein and a couple of other
>sources.
And the officer commanding, even if a Lieutenant J.G., is 'Captain.'
-- because 'Captain' is a title as well as a rank.
-denny-
curmudgeonly editor
"Life with the circus is one long uninterrupted dee-light."
(Barry Longyear, _Circus World_)
D.J.
[p&e to Bill and Nemo]
Bill Gawne wrote:
[]Me, earlier:
[]> > Correct. There's only one Captain aboard a ship, and it sure is not
[]> > any ground pounder.
[]
[]Leonard:
[]> I seem to recall that it gets even weirder on the really small ships
[]> where the "captain of the ship" may not have the rank of Captain.
[]
[]True. The Captain of a given ship may hold any naval officer's rank.
[]But once that officer has been 'read in' as Captain, then the only
[]proper form of address is "Captain" until such time as there is a
[]change of command.
I've seen Ensigns and Lt jgs called Captain, because they were the
Captain of a vessel. PTboats come to mind. Some harbour support
vessels. Various patrol craft.
D.J.
jhe...@my-deja.com wrote:
[]Warrant officers were in a comparable position -- officers by warrant
[]of their duties, rather than by commission of congress. You had to
[]have some kind of officer commanding an independent ship, such as a
[]chopper, but you didn't want him ever in a position of command over
[]ground troops. He (or she, these days) didn't have the training for it.
[]
[](All data is current only to the 1970s -- like Joyce, I had never heard
[]of a W-5 rating.)
USN Warrant Officers are in the chain of command. I worked for them
on the destroyer. A W-1 or W-2 was in charge of us electronic techs,
and he reported to the Lt. jg or Lt. who was the Operations Officer.
I only heard of W-1 thru W-4 as of 1972.
John Hayes
<jhe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:91ft1g$tgb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I went to boot camp in 1988....as of that time the specialist ranks above
E-4 had been done away with. Now an E-5 and above is a sergeant.
Rae (who remembers most of her "Tops" fondly.)
David C. Kifer
>
> [p&e]
>
> David C. Kifer wrote:
> []Lt. John Marshall Gamble, placed in charge of the captured 10-gun
> []whaler, the _Greenwich_, by Navy Captain David Porter, in May 1813.
> []He commanded until May 1814, when he was captured and set adrift
>
> Gracias !
>
> BOYC ?
De nada! 'Tweren't nothin'. Tequila, if I can BYNO.
David C. Kifer
[p&e]
> Dave Kifer, USMC:
> > Lt. John Marshall Gamble, placed in charge of the captured 10-gun
> > whaler, the _Greenwich_, by Navy Captain David Porter, in May 1813.
> > He commanded until May 1814, when he was captured and set adrift
> > in a small boat by mutineers (prisoners and foreign-born crew).
> > Leaving out some detail, Gamble and three other men eventually
> > managed to make it to Hawaii, where he found a ship to take him
> > home. It was captured, and Gamble was held in Rio de Janeiro until
> > the war ended. He finally reached New York 34 months after leaving
> > it. The Corps promoted him to Captain, and eventually to Lt. Colonel.
> > He died in 1836 from lingering effects of his Pacific cruise.
> > [I cheated; I have a history of the Corps right beside the computer.
> > And I was fortunate enough to find the story in the first thirty
> > or so pages... :-)> ]
>
> "Mike! Dave wins the six-pack of Tun Tavern Lager." Bill says.
A whole six-pack? Goody! Who wants to share?
> "Thanks Dave. I'd forgotten the bit about him being captured and
> spending the rest of the war in Rio."
Thank you for reminding me of the whole event, so I would look it
up. One problem with my several newsgroups, I keep getting reminded
of books I should read again, but then I'd never have time for the
new books I keep buying... Such a problem! ;-)>
Joyce Melton
> I've seen Ensigns and Lt jgs called Captain, because they were the
>Captain of a vessel. PTboats come to mind. Some harbour support
>vessels. Various patrol craft.
Anyone else ever read "Cap'n Fatso" by D.V. Gallery? Very funny
collection of short stories about a CPO commanding a courier and
supply boat in the Mediterranean, written by an Admiral.
Joyce
Mike Muth
jhe...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3A3A6D8E...@pha.jhu.edu>,
> Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
> <snipped>
> > The Army also has some
> > parallel Specialist ranks that I'm going to let Mike Muth address,
> > and their E-7 rank is called Sergeant First Class, where we
> > Marines have Gunnery Sergeant."
> Since Mike hasn't yet chimed in, I'll take a stab at the specialist
> ranks. They're simple -- Specialist 4 is pay grade E4, etc, up to
> Specialist 7. These ranks are not strictly equivalent to Corporal,
> Sergeant, and so forth, because a Specialist rank is not supposed to
> be in the combat chain of command. As a Spec 5, I theoretically only
> had authority in technical fields, such as schools or depot
> maintenance. In reality, I knew Spec 4 and Spec 5 infantry troops who
> were holding down combat platoon positions. Don't ask me why.
> Warrant officers were in a comparable position -- officers by warrant
> of their duties, rather than by commission of congress. You had to
> have some kind of officer commanding an independent ship, such as a
> chopper, but you didn't want him ever in a position of command over
> ground troops. He (or she, these days) didn't have the training for
> it.
> (All data is current only to the 1970s -- like Joyce, I had never
> heard of a W-5 rating.)
There have been some changes to the Army rank structure since I got out.
With that in mind...
1. All military personnel have a position somewhere in the chain of
command. Even if you have a group of Private E-1 (lowest pay grade and
rank) types who were all sworn in together, they still have varying
positions in the chain of command (in this case, based on date of
birth).
2. Military personnel have both a pay grade and a rank. The pay grades
are E-1 to E-9, W-1 to W-5, and O-1 to O-10 (General of the Army is a
special pay grade). Enlisted personnel with the same pay grade may have
different ranks. For the Army, the enlisted rank structure is:
E-9 Command Sergeant Major
E-9 Sergeant Major
E-8 First Sergeant
E-8 Master Sergeant
E-7 Sergeant First Class
(There was a Specialist 7, but it went away in the 70's)
E-6 Staff Sergeant
E-6 Specialist 6 (this was still around in 1984, but was pretty rare)
E-5 Sergeant
E-5 Specialist 5
E-4 Corporal
E-4 Specialist 4
E-3 Private First Class
E-2 Private (PV2)
E-1 Private (PV1)
The only current specialist rank is Specialist Four.
3. Specialists were not non-commissioned officers. That applies only
to Corporals and those personnel whose rank includes the word Sergeant.
Things get a bit confused, however, since specialists are entitled to
all the rights and privileges of and NCO of the same pay grade. Thus,
and E-4 could attend the NCO club - even though s/he is not an NCO.
4. As originally conceived (and as practiced at the time I left the
service), the difference between NCO's and specialists was
mission-related. NCO's were leaders of a unit of soldiers.
Specialists, OTOH, were soldiers whose duties merited more pay and
status than a private but were not in leadership positions. They could,
however, fill into those positions as necessary. For example, a tank
commander is normally a staff sergeant. If there are not enough staff
sergeants in the unit, a specialist five (normally a gunner) could fill
the TC position. In this case, however, he would normally then be
laterally appointed to sergeant for the duration of his assignment as
TC.
5. Warrant officer grades were created through a need for more officers
at a time when commissioned officer slots were capped. It takes,
literally, an act of Congress to raise the number of commissioned
officers authorized on active duty. That is not the case with warrant
officers.
6. There is no legal requirement that aircraft be commanded by
officers. However, it is generally acknowledged that officer status and
pay is needed to attract sufficient qualified personnel for those
positions. One should also note that not all warrant officers are
pilots. Highly qualified enlisted personnel can be appointed as warrant
officers in non-combat fields if vacancies occur. The process is pretty
similar to appointed a soldier to OCS and is followed by training in the
warrant officer school followed by additional career field training.
7. The UCMJ treats disobedience to orders differently for specialists
and sergeants. Disobeying an NCO is a violation of Article 91 while
disobeying a specialist is a violation of Article 92. Article 92 also
covers violations of regulations and other orders. Disobedience to an
order issued by a commissioned officer is a violationof Article 90. I
think disobedience toward a WO would probably fall under article 92
since 90 specifies "commissioned officer" and 91 specifies
"non-commissioned officer." I'm not completely sure on this, though.
It seems to me that in legal terms (as opposed to normal usage) a
Warrant Officer is a "non-commissioned officer" since s/he is not
commissioned but is an officer. I'll leave that for the JAG types.
8. When determining precedence among personnel of equal rank, one
compares date of rank. If that is the same, then time in service
determines relative rank. If that, too, is the same, the final tie
breaker is date of birth.
Army Regulation 600-20 may be found at:
http://books.usapa.belvoir.army.mil/cgi-bin/bookmgr/BOOKS/R600_20/CCONTE
NTS
Mike
--
Send E-mail to wuf0170<at>newsguy<dot>com
Mike Muth
red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:50:14 -0500, "Xander Opal" <xan...@iserv.net>
> wrote:
> >purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
> >knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what
> >they mean to me?"
> I'd appreciate clarification on enlisted ranks, but officer rankings
> ar, with comparative authority command level:
A couple of nitpicks below:
> ARMY - AIR FORCE - MARINES
> 2nd Lieutenant - commands squad or platoon
Sergeants command squads. Lieutenants, even the lowly 2LT's, never
command anything smaller than a platoon.
> 1st Lieutenant - commands squad, platoon or company
Platoon Leader, company XO, staff gopher
> Captain - commands company
Also primary battalion staff positions other than S-3. Cavalry troops
are commanded by captains as a US army troop is equivalent to a company.
> Major - commands company or battalion
(US Army) XO or S-3 of battalion/Squadron. Does sometimes command
companies. (I served in one such unit)
> Lieutenant Colonel - commands battalion or regiment
battalion or (US Army) cavalry squadron. Would only command the
regiment if the assigned colonel were absent or rendered unable to
exercise command. A good example would be George Custer. He exercised
command of the 7th Cavalry because the Colonel Sturgis was detached to
other duties in St. Louis. FWIW, Sheridan did this precisely so Custer
could exercise command.
> Colonel - commands regiment
May also command a brigade
> Brigadier General - commands brigade
US Army Brigadier Generals are assistant division commanders. In
practice, they will exercise brigade command. However, the brigade
commander is a colonel.
> Major General - commands divisision
> Lieutenant General - commands army
(US Army) corps commander.
> General - commands armed force
(US Army) commands an Army
> Field Marshal/General of the Army - commands anything he damn well
> pleases (mostly obsolete rank)
Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
identify this famous officer)
General of the Army is a current, but unused rank. ISTR, the last
officer to hold the rank was Omar Bradley. In case of a general
mobilizatin (highly unlikely), the rank would be revived.
In some special purpose units, the Army does funny things with ranks
which don't fall within the general rules above.
<snip navy ranks>
John Hayes
"Mike Muth" <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:91gojj$hj3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <3a3b102d...@207.126.101.100>,
> red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:50:14 -0500, "Xander Opal" <xan...@iserv.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
> > >knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and what
> > >they mean to me?"
>
> > I'd appreciate clarification on enlisted ranks, but officer rankings
> > ar, with comparative authority command level:
>
> A couple of nitpicks below:
>
> > ARMY - AIR FORCE - MARINES
>
> > 2nd Lieutenant - commands squad or platoon
>
> Sergeants command squads. Lieutenants, even the lowly 2LT's, never
> command anything smaller than a platoon.
>
> > 1st Lieutenant - commands squad, platoon or company
>
> Platoon Leader, company XO, staff gopher
>
And then they do really weird stuff with specialized units.
I was in a 10 person unit in the Louisiana Guard when we were mobilized for
the War in the Gulf. They bumped a corporal to Sgt and put him in charge.
Our regular Sgt was at school and they couldn't pull him back because he
needed the school to actually be in our unit.
"They" then attached us to a unit that wouldn't be in country for 3
months....I was glad to be on bed rest for the first couple of days we were
there because the rest of the guys were scrounging food, cots, and blankets
until they figured out what to do with a unit that "had no job" for the
first 2 months we were there.
Oh the joys of military life....
Rae
Leonard Erickson
kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Said
Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> writes:
> "And," Bill adds, "It's amazing that anyone would have questioned
> David Porter's naval judgement. He was one of the legendary Captains
> of the early US Navy. But I suppose Nelson caught flack from the
> British Admiralty too..."
No "supposing" about it.
Leonard Erickson
kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Said
Josh Jasper <jsja...@home.com> writes:
> "You mean a Marine officer, if he captured it, could command an army
> ship?" Josh asks, with a <Yes, I am being a prat> grin on his face. "I
> didn't even know the army *had* warships."
Actually, during WWII the Army did have at least one ship. That's what
"The Wackiest Ship in the Army" was (loosely) based on.
D.J.
David C. Kifer wrote:
[]De nada! 'Tweren't nothin'. Tequila, if I can BYNO.
Certainly. Remind me later, I have to go pick up my new eyeglasses,
to tell the tale of the Salty Coffee. :-)
D.J.
Joyce Melton wrote:
Admiral, then Captain, Dan Gallery ! DDLM !
I used to read those books aboard ship. Got me in trouble, just
reading them, not following the books...
I pointed out to the Warrant-1 that "Well, Gee Sir, these books were
written by someone who outranks you Sir !"
He decided I could read them after all...
"Staaaandby to Start Engines !"
Jim Johnston
Bill Gawne wrote:
> (snip)
>
> "But wait, there's more!"
>
> "In the Navy, the enlisted rank structure is Seaman Recruit(E-1),
> Seaman Basic(E-2), Seaman(E-3), Petty Officer 3rd Class(E-4),
> Petty Officer 2nd Class (E-5), Petty Officer 1st Class(E-6),
> Chief Petty Officer (E-7), Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8),
> and Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9). I *think* the Coast Guard
> has the same ranks, but I'll let Sailor Jim handle that particular
> issue."
Sailor Jim looks up and shrugs. "Pretty much the same ... just superior to their
Navy counterparts in every possible manner and way."
SJ
Leslie
On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, in <91gojj$hj3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mike Muth spake thusly:
=In some special purpose units, the Army does funny things with ranks
=which don't fall within the general rules above.
The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
designations, I'd be obliged.
Leslie.
--
* Spider Robinson info & alt.callahans FAQs: <http://www.vex.net/~leslie> *
** "If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane." - J. Buffett **
*** The FAQS of Usenet: http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html ***
**** If you love any of your rights, defend all of them. ****
D.J.
Leslie wrote:
[]The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
[]for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
[]remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
[]If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
[]designations, I'd be obliged.
In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
officer's rank is Colonel.
Like a Lt. j.g. is not a full Lt.
jhe...@my-deja.com
Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<much snipped>
> 3. Specialists were not non-commissioned officers. That applies only
> to Corporals and those personnel whose rank includes the word
Sergeant.
> Things get a bit confused, however, since specialists are entitled to
> all the rights and privileges of and NCO of the same pay grade. Thus,
> and E-4 could attend the NCO club - even though s/he is not an NCO.
At least the Signal Corps (ca. 1970s) seemed to treat the two parallel
rank systems interchangeably. When the unit Re-Up NCO dangled a stripe
in front of my nose in an effort to get me to stay in, it was a
straight SSGT. E-6 deal rather than Spec 6, for the same MOS. I smiled
at him sweetly and said I had better things to do with my life.
> 7. The UCMJ treats disobedience to orders differently for specialists
> and sergeants. Disobeying an NCO is a violation of Article 91 while
> disobeying a specialist is a violation of Article 92. Article 92 also
> covers violations of regulations and other orders. Disobedience to an
> order issued by a commissioned officer is a violationof Article 90. I
> think disobedience toward a WO would probably fall under article 92
> since 90 specifies "commissioned officer" and 91 specifies
> "non-commissioned officer." I'm not completely sure on this, though.
> It seems to me that in legal terms (as opposed to normal usage) a
> Warrant Officer is a "non-commissioned officer" since s/he is not
> commissioned but is an officer. I'll leave that for the JAG types.
I don't think anybody _ever_ explained these distinctions to me when I
was in. The only disciplinary action I ever saw, ("observer" status,
strictly<G>) involved disobedience or disrespect to Specialist ranks
and was treated as disobedience to a NCO. The Old Man _may_ have cited
a different Article. You couldn't prove it by me.
--
Jim
"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart"
Lois McMaster Bujold
jhe...@my-deja.com
Doesn't the CG generally place much heavier responsibility on the
enlisted ranks? I know the local base (Southwest Harbor) usually has a
NCO commanding their rescue craft.
JEM
>Anyone else ever read "Cap'n Fatso" by D.V.
>Gallery? Very funny collection of short stories
>about a CPO commanding a courier and supply
>boat in the Mediterranean, written by an
>Admiral.
Of course! And "Eight Bells And All's Well", and "All Hands On
Deck", and others whose titles I don't recall right now. Fun stuff, IMO.
Oh -- "U505", too. That one was a "serious" book, not one of the
"humorous" ones. Except for the part about the Captain's pants, that
is... <g>
Hrm. "The Brink" was another one of his, IIRC.
JEM
I don't suffer from insanity......I'm enjoying every minute of it!
Bill Gawne
Mike Muth:
> Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
> identify this famous officer)
Pershing?
djohnson
>The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
>for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
>remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
>If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
>designations, I'd be obliged.
Lt. Colonel is between Major and Colonel. Insignia is the same oak
leaf cluster as a Major, except in silver instead of gold. Insignia
for a "full bird" colonel is a silver eagle. Both are referred to as
"colonel", so "full bird" is to make it understood that it's not the
junior version.
--
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real, deliverable
e-mail address. Of all the sins committed by the spammers, destroying
the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
(Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, news.admin.net-abuse.email)
Kris Overstreet
>> Field Marshal/General of the Army - commands anything he damn well
>> pleases (mostly obsolete rank)
>
>Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
>identify this famous officer)
Without looking down the thread, I'll guess Black Jack Pershing.
Washington, IIRC, was only a three-star.
Redneck
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> Leslie wrote:
> []The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
> []for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
> []remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
> []If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
> []designations, I'd be obliged.
>
> In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
> officer's rank is Colonel.
And the insignia for a full colonel is an eagle. I forget the insignia
for a lieutenant colonel (aka: "short colonel").
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) "There are no good plan Bs. If
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/ they were good, they'd be plan A."
http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/ -- The Magic School Bus
D.J.
The Polymath wrote:
[]"D.J." wrote:
[]> Leslie wrote:
[]> []The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
[]> []for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
[]> []remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
[]> []If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
[]> []designations, I'd be obliged.
[]>
[]> In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
[]> officer's rank is Colonel.
[]
[]And the insignia for a full colonel is an eagle. I forget the insignia
[]for a lieutenant colonel (aka: "short colonel").
Someone else has pointed out is the difference between a silver
eagle for Lt. Colonel, and gold for a Colonel.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> The Polymath wrote:
> []"D.J." wrote:
> []> Leslie wrote:
> []> []The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
> []> []for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
> []> []remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
> []> []If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
> []> []designations, I'd be obliged.
> []>
> []> In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
> []> officer's rank is Colonel.
> []
> []And the insignia for a full colonel is an eagle. I forget the insignia
> []for a lieutenant colonel (aka: "short colonel").
>
> Someone else has pointed out is the difference between a silver
> eagle for Lt. Colonel, and gold for a Colonel.
I recall they said silver oakleaf for lt. colonel, hence the distinction
between "bird colonel" and "oakleaf colonel."
Merlinvin
[ great gobs of snippage ]
> "In the Navy, the enlisted rank structure is Seaman Recruit(E-1),
> Seaman Basic(E-2), Seaman(E-3), Petty Officer 3rd Class(E-4),
> Petty Officer 2nd Class (E-5), Petty Officer 1st Class(E-6),
> Chief Petty Officer (E-7), Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8),
> and Master Chief Petty Officer (E-9). I *think* the Coast Guard
> has the same ranks, but I'll let Sailor Jim handle that particular
> issue."
Merlinvin chimes in.
"And, just to be *truly* confusing, Navy enlisted don't have 'ranks',
they have 'rates' ... from the Naval tradition of 'rating' seamen as
mates to the various warrant officers. (I'm not even going to go
anywhere near the differences between Seamen, Firemen, Constructionmen,
etc. -- for that, you'll have to dig through the Navy's public affairs
website:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/allhands/ranks/rates/rates.html
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/allhands/ranks/rates/rates2.html
"As an example, I got out as an ET1/SS. 'ET' means I was an Electronics
Technician. The '1' means I was a petty officer first-class. The '/SS'
indicates that I was submarine qualified. It's really quite simple when
you think about it ... :-)"
> "Then, we have Warrant Officers. By some miracle, all services
> seem to have almost the same Warrant Officer ranks, W-1 through
> W-5.
"W-5? Not in the Navy, at least. The USN currently only has CWO2 through
CWO4. These are typically former senior enlisted personnel who chose to
go for further technical specialization through the warrant ranks rather
than go for Limited Duty Officer commissions."
> "Those same names for the officer ranks apply in the US
> Air Force and Army too. Though the Navy uses Ensign,
> Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander,
> Commander, Captain, Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral,
> and Admiral."
"Almost, Bill. The Navy gave up on Commodore as a rank back in the
1980s, IIRC. Nowadays, one-star flag officers are Rear Admiral
(lower-half), and two-star flag officers are Rear Admiral (upper half)."
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/allhands/ranks/officers/o-rank.html
--
Edmund Schweppe aka merl...@my-deja.com
Blissfully free of official positions
"An it harm none, do as thou will;
Otherwise, we need to talk..."
Bill Gawne
> []> In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
> []> officer's rank is Colonel.
Polymath:
> []And the insignia for a full colonel is an eagle. I forget the insignia
> []for a lieutenant colonel (aka: "short colonel").
DJ again:
> Someone else has pointed out is the difference between a silver
> eagle for Lt. Colonel, and gold for a Colonel.
Nope. A Colonel wears a silver eagle, while a Lieutenant Colonel
wears a silver oakleaf. (In the US Armed Forces, at least. In
some places a full Col is three diamonds, while a LtCol is two.)
The only gold rank insignia worn by US officers are the gold bar
of a 2nd Lieutenant/Ensign(O-1), and the gold oakleaf of a Major/
Lieutenant Commander(O-4). All other commissioned officers wear
silver rank insignia.
(Further trivia question: Why does the gold insignia indicate
an officer of lesser, rather than greater, rank? Where did the
practice come from?)
Mike Muth
> Mike Muth:
> > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
> > identify this famous officer)
> Pershing?
Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I have
in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
division.) He also served in three wars.
jhe...@my-deja.com
Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3A3D0207...@abs.net>,
> Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> > [p&e]
>
> > Mike Muth:
>
> > > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you
can
> > > identify this famous officer)
>
> > Pershing?
>
> Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I
have
> in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
> division.) He also served in three wars.
>
That begins to sound like Douglas MacArthur. But wasn't his "Field
Marshal" rank in the _Phillipine_ army?
--
Jim
"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart"
Lois McMaster Bujold
Kris Overstreet
>In article <3A3D0207...@abs.net>,
> Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
>> [p&e]
>
>> Mike Muth:
>
>> > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
>> > identify this famous officer)
>
>> Pershing?
>
>Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I have
>in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
>division.) He also served in three wars.
Pershing, IIRC, got his fifth star after leaving active service, and
may even have got a sixth so he could remain the USA's highest ranking
military man until his death- my memory is foggy about that.
Redneck
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, jhe...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91gne1$glq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> <much snipped>
<more snippage>
> > 7. The UCMJ treats disobedience to orders differently for specialists
> > and sergeants. Disobeying an NCO is a violation of Article 91 while
> > disobeying a specialist is a violation of Article 92. Article 92 also
> > covers violations of regulations and other orders. Disobedience to an
> > order issued by a commissioned officer is a violationof Article 90. I
> > think disobedience toward a WO would probably fall under article 92
> > since 90 specifies "commissioned officer" and 91 specifies
> > "non-commissioned officer." I'm not completely sure on this, though.
> > It seems to me that in legal terms (as opposed to normal usage) a
> > Warrant Officer is a "non-commissioned officer" since s/he is not
> > commissioned but is an officer. I'll leave that for the JAG types.
> I don't think anybody _ever_ explained these distinctions to me when I
> was in. The only disciplinary action I ever saw, ("observer" status,
> strictly<G>) involved disobedience or disrespect to Specialist ranks
> and was treated as disobedience to a NCO. The Old Man _may_ have cited
> a different Article. You couldn't prove it by me.
I spent some time as a Squadron Legal Clerk (71D30) in 1-4th Cavalry.
Otherwise, I probably never would have known the difference either.
The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited for "abusing a
public animal."
Mike
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, "The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)" <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> "D.J." wrote:
> > The Polymath wrote:
> > []"D.J." wrote:
> > []> Leslie wrote:
> > []> []The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
> > []> []for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
> > []> []remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
> > []> []If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
> > []> []designations, I'd be obliged.
> > []> In other words, the 'full-bird colonel' isn't a Lt. Colonel the
> > []> officer's rank is Colonel.
> > []And the insignia for a full colonel is an eagle. I forget the insignia
> > []for a lieutenant colonel (aka: "short colonel").
> > Someone else has pointed out is the difference between a silver
> > eagle for Lt. Colonel, and gold for a Colonel.
> I recall they said silver oakleaf for lt. colonel, hence the distinction
> between "bird colonel" and "oakleaf colonel."
A chicken colonel gets an eagle on his collar. A light colonel has a silver
oakleaf.
Mike
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 21:59:18 GMT, Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> Field Marshal/General of the Army - commands anything he damn well
> >> pleases (mostly obsolete rank)
> >Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
> >identify this famous officer)
> Without looking down the thread, I'll guess Black Jack Pershing.
Not Pershing. ISTR he had four stars - and was the first American four star
general. Previously the Commanding General of the Army was a Lieutenant
General (those which come to mind are Halleck, Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, and
Miles).
> Washington, IIRC, was only a three-star.
Although I am not sure, I think Washington was probably only a two star.
Mike
Netdancer
>The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited for "abusing a
>public animal."
>
>Mike
When I lived onbase at Williams AFB I saw one fgellow get it for 'riding a
bicycle while intoxicated' and one get it for 'walking while intoxicated'.
Netdancer&
Bill Gawne
>
> In article <3A3D0207...@abs.net>,
> Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> > [p&e]
>
> > Mike Muth:
>
> > > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
> > > identify this famous officer)
>
> > Pershing?
>
> Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I have
> in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
> division.) He also served in three wars.
El Supremo? (aka Douglas A. McArthur)
If I'm correct, then the Field Marshall rank wasn't confered on him
by the US Government. He got it from one of the other nations
he held concurrent rank for.
Joyce Melton
>(Further trivia question: Why does the gold insignia indicate
>an officer of lesser, rather than greater, rank? Where did the
>practice come from?)
Was the original "gold" insignia actually "brass"?
Joyce
The Killick
>The only gold rank insignia worn by US officers are the gold bar
>of a 2nd Lieutenant/Ensign(O-1), and the gold oakleaf of a Major/
>Lieutenant Commander(O-4). All other commissioned officers wear
>silver rank insignia.
>
>(Further trivia question: Why does the gold insignia indicate
>an officer of lesser, rather than greater, rank? Where did the
>practice come from?)
>
IIRC the practice comes from the feeling that the junior officer,like
gold, is Malleable and easily formed.
this may just be old age and a dusty memory attic at work...but I
think that was the gist of it.
Bruce aka The Killick
-
He explains the ancient and honourable art of Border Raiding as follows:
"'That was the times when the English would ride north on Friday,
raping and pillaging. Then the Scots would ride south on Saturday,
makin' love and borrowin' things.'"
D.J.
Mike Muth wrote:
[]> I recall they said silver oakleaf for lt. colonel, hence the distinction
[]> between "bird colonel" and "oakleaf colonel."
[]
[]A chicken colonel gets an eagle on his collar. A light colonel has a silver
[]oakleaf.
Okay. I knew there was a difference, but thought I had remembered
correctly.
I prefer the Navy dress blue uniform way... you just count the
number of gold stripes on the sleeve.
Ensign: one gold stripe.
Lt Jg. one wide one narrow gold stripe.
Lt. two wide gold stripes.
dani
In article <91jsb...@enews3.newsguy.com>,
Mike,
My beloved is reading over my shoulder and dictating as I type so...
He was Sec 4, E-5 paygrade, MOS 11D10 Amburg, Gremany. As you know Cav
regs have nothing to do with Army regs. (Remember HE"S dictating
this...I'm a life long civilian)
dani
somethings have to be believed to be seen
sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge
dani
Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3a3b102d...@207.126.101.100>,
> red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> > On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:50:14 -0500, "Xander Opal" <xan...@iserv.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > >purpose). So... BOYC's for folx willing to share Military
> > >knowledge/experience and tell me what the various ranks are, and
what
> > >they mean to me?"
>
> > I'd appreciate clarification on enlisted ranks, but officer rankings
> > ar, with comparative authority command level:
>
> A couple of nitpicks below:
>
> > ARMY - AIR FORCE - MARINES
>
> > 2nd Lieutenant - commands squad or platoon
>
> Sergeants command squads. Lieutenants, even the lowly 2LT's, never
> command anything smaller than a platoon.
>
> > 1st Lieutenant - commands squad, platoon or company
>
> Platoon Leader, company XO, staff gopher
>
> > Captain - commands company
>
> Also primary battalion staff positions other than S-3. Cavalry troops
> are commanded by captains as a US army troop is equivalent to a
company.
>
> > Major - commands company or battalion
>
> (US Army) XO or S-3 of battalion/Squadron. Does sometimes command
> companies. (I served in one such unit)
>
> > Lieutenant Colonel - commands battalion or regiment
>
> battalion or (US Army) cavalry squadron. Would only command the
> regiment if the assigned colonel were absent or rendered unable to
> exercise command. A good example would be George Custer. He
exercised
> command of the 7th Cavalry because the Colonel Sturgis was detached to
> other duties in St. Louis. FWIW, Sheridan did this precisely so
Custer
> could exercise command.
>
> > Colonel - commands regiment
>
> May also command a brigade
>
> > Brigadier General - commands brigade
>
> US Army Brigadier Generals are assistant division commanders. In
> practice, they will exercise brigade command. However, the brigade
> commander is a colonel.
>
> > Major General - commands divisision
> > Lieutenant General - commands army
>
> (US Army) corps commander.
>
> > General - commands armed force
>
> (US Army) commands an Army
>
> > Field Marshal/General of the Army - commands anything he damn well
> > pleases (mostly obsolete rank)
>
> identify this famous officer)
>
> officer to hold the rank was Omar Bradley. In case of a general
> mobilizatin (highly unlikely), the rank would be revived.
>
> In some special purpose units, the Army does funny things with ranks
>
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Send E-mail to wuf0170<at>newsguy<dot>com
>
George 'Ironpants' Patton.
--dani ....and a over-the-shoulder-reading beloved
Leonard Erickson
kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Said
Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> writes:
> (Further trivia question: Why does the gold insignia indicate
> an officer of lesser, rather than greater, rank? Where did the
> practice come from?)
No idea, but I'd bet a nickel that the original distinction was between
*brass* and silver.
I'll also note that some of the captain's bars mom had (from her late
husband) had the silver plating polished until the brass was starting
to show :-)
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Nemo) kal...@krypton.rain.com
"No, I will _not_ move your planet... What do you want to move it _for_?
It's fine right where it is!"
-- Dairine Callahan, Wizard (no relation)
Programmer Access
>
>Well, now a Navy one-star is a "Rear Admiral, lower half".
Is this where we all chime in with the mandatory "half @ssed Admiral"
joke?
Eric J. Heckathorn
From the sci.military.naval FAQ (the section on Five Star Admirals,
which also lists officers of other services):
In addition, John J. Pershing, during World War I, was appointed
General of the Armies and was authorized to design his own insignia,
but never wore anything other than the four stars of a full General.
Eric J. Heckathorn
eri...@stargate.net
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> Mike Muth wrote:
> >
> > In article <3A3D0207...@abs.net>,
> > Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> > > [p&e]
> > > Mike Muth:
> > > > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you can
> > > > identify this famous officer)
> > > Pershing?
> > Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I have
> > in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
> > division.) He also served in three wars.
> El Supremo? (aka Douglas A. McArthur)
It was indeed Dugout Doug.
> If I'm correct, then the Field Marshall rank wasn't confered on him
> by the US Government. He got it from one of the other nations
> he held concurrent rank for.
Correct. I won't repeat the explanation I just posted in this thread.
Suffice to say that the returnee was a retired major general (thus still an
officer in the US Army) at the same time he was a field marshal. Of course,
the US has never used the rank "field marshal."
How about this one?
Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
Mike
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, jhe...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91jrvn$n3m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <3A3D0207...@abs.net>,
> > Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> > > [p&e]
> > > Mike Muth:
> > > > Only one US officer has ever been a field marshal. (BOYC if you
> > > >can identify this famous officer)
> > > Pershing?
> > Nope. ISTR that Blackjack Pershing had four stars. The officer I
> > have in mind did serve under Pershing. (Hint: in the 42d "Rainbow"
> > division.) He also served in three wars.
> That begins to sound like Douglas MacArthur. But wasn't his "Field
> Marshal" rank in the _Phillipine_ army?
Bingo. MacArthur was a US Officer posted as Military Advisor to the
Philippine Commonwealth.(thus, still a US officer). On 31 December 1937,
MacArthur retired with the rank of general to become field marshal in the
Philippine Army. Even though retired, MacArthur was still a US officer with a
permanent rank of Major General. When the Philippine Army was inducted into
the US Army, all Filipino commissions were transferred to the US Army or
nullified (for US reserve/retired component officers who were recalled). Mac
was recalled as a Major General and placed in command of the US Armed Forces
Far East (USAFFE) on 26 July 1941. Two days later he was promoted to
Lieutenant General with an effective date of 27 July 1941.*
This dual status of retired general and Philippine Army field marshal was only
possible because the Philippine Commonwealth was still a US possession. Thus,
all Filipinos were US citizens and MacArthur did not need to surrender his
citizenship to accept the commission.**
Mike
* Morton, Louis, _United States Army in World War II, The War in the Pacific:
The Fall of the Philippines_, Office of the Chief of Military History, US
army, Washington, D.D. 1953, Page19.
** Surrendering citizenship would have meant resignation from the US Army and
loss of his commission (and retirement benefits).
Mike Muth
On 17-Dec-2000, red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> >> Mike Muth:
> >> Pershing?
Pershing was General of the Armies at his death. There has never been a sixth
star.
Mike
Mike Muth
On 18-Dec-2000, dani <dka...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <91jsb...@enews3.newsguy.com>,
> wuf...@newsguy.com wrote:
> >
> > On 17-Dec-2000, jhe...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > In article <91gne1$glq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > Mike Muth <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > <much snipped>
> > <more snippage>
<snipped again>
> > I spent some time as a Squadron Legal Clerk (71D30) in 1-4th Cavalry.
> > Otherwise, I probably never would have known the difference either.
> > The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited
> > for "abusing a public animal."
> Mike,
> My beloved is reading over my shoulder and dictating as I type so...
> He was Sec 4, E-5 paygrade, MOS 11D10 Amburg, Gremany. As you know Cav
> regs have nothing to do with Army regs. (Remember HE"S dictating
> this...I'm a life long civilian)
Ah, but the soldier from the 2d ACR *was* charged under the UCMJ. ISTR, he
had thrown rocks at the regiment's mascot. I was a personnel sergeant in
Bamberg, Germany at the time. When the article 15 came in to be posted to the
soldier's MPRJ (Military Personnel Records Jacket), there was much discussion
of it. It was probably a violation of Title 10, USC which was prosecuted
under either Article 134 or Article 92. Of course, they might have used
article 108 (abuse or destruction of government property).
FWIW, I just checked the UCMJ and the charge for disobeying a warrant officer
is the same as that for disobeying a non-commissioned officer.
Nitpick. MOS 11D10 applied to E-1 - E-4. An E-5, was 11D20. In the early
80's, the MOS was changed to 19D.
Mike
Bill Gawne
Mike Muth:
> Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
Charles Lee, during the American Revolution.
Mike Muth
On 16-Dec-2000, kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:50:59 PST, In alt.callahans
> kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) Said
> Josh Jasper <jsja...@home.com> writes:
> > "You mean a Marine officer, if he captured it, could command an army
> > ship?" Josh asks, with a <Yes, I am being a prat> grin on his face. "I
> > didn't even know the army *had* warships."
> Actually, during WWII the Army did have at least one ship. That's what
> "The Wackiest Ship in the Army" was (loosely) based on.
The last time I checked (almost 20 years ago), the Army had more ships than
the Navy.* None were warships, of course.
The torpedo boats in the Philippines were initially US Army vessels.
Mike
* Nope, I can't provide a citation. However, I suspect it was probably in one
of those annual Army Green Books.
Mike Muth
On 15-Dec-2000, Hecate <hec...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:14:22 -0500, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
> wrote:
> >"There are also Marine Generals who command Joint Forces, made
> >up of members from all services. US Central Command, the
> >force that ran the Gulf War, alternates between and Army General
> >and a Marine General. US Space Command is generally run by
> >an Air Force General, but can also be commanded by a Navy
> >Admiral. At the high echelons of command things can get
> >pretty interesting..."
> And then, of course, there's the British way of doing things.....
And those delightful ranks. I can still remember having Squadron
Quartermaster Corporal-Major Alderson over for dinner one night. Never did
figure out where that rank fit in, though. Near as I can tell, he was one
step below the CSM (or, in this case, the Squadron Sergeant Major).
Mike
Mike Muth
On 18-Dec-2000, Bill Gawne <ga...@abs.net> wrote:
> [p&e]
> Mike Muth:
> > Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
> Charles Lee, during the American Revolution.
I don't think so (although I am open to correction). My sources show that Lee
was a Major with the 103d Regiment of Foot under Burgoyne. In 1765 he joined
the Polish Army. In 1767, he was promoted to major general in that army.
Shortly afterward, he returned to England. In 1769, he returned to Poland and
fought the Turks. In 1770, he was invalided home to England.
He does have the distinction of drawing half-pay from the British while
serving in the Continental Army as a Major General.
The general I am looking for commanded troops as a general in the field
against the US Army and later commanded a US division in a subsequent war.
Mike
dji...@boingydatasync.com
[]The torpedo boats in the Philippines were initially US Army vessels.
Thats odd. I thought the PT boats were USN, and then were turned over
to the Army during/after the Japanese invasion of the Phillipines.
D.J.
--
Spammers and junk emailers in jail !
djim55 at the datasync dotty com Disclaimer: Standard.
http://www.crosswinds.net/~djim51/updated.html updated Dec 10
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
Robert E. Lee?
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) "There are no good plan Bs. If
http://www.babcom.com/polymath/ they were good, they'd be plan A."
http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/ -- The Magic School Bus
Bill Gawne
> > > Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
I replied:
> > Charles Lee, during the American Revolution.
Mike again:
> I don't think so (although I am open to correction).
I don't have any difinitive source for that. I was going on memory.
> My sources show that Lee
> was a Major with the 103d Regiment of Foot under Burgoyne. In 1765 he joined
> the Polish Army. In 1767, he was promoted to major general in that army.
> Shortly afterward, he returned to England. In 1769, he returned to Poland and
> fought the Turks. In 1770, he was invalided home to England.
Sounds about right. I know he made a point of wearing his Polish
uniform while a captive of Sir William Howe in Philladeplhia. Howe
accepted Lee's arguement that he was no longer subject to the Crown
due to his having taken the Polish commission and resigned his
British commission to do that.
> He does have the distinction of drawing half-pay from the British while
> serving in the Continental Army as a Major General.
Howe apparently turned a blind eye to that, or he could have
hanged Lee for treason.
> The general I am looking for commanded troops as a general in the field
> against the US Army and later commanded a US division in a subsequent war.
No blessed idea. I know that the Captain of the first LST to hit the
beach at Inchon had previously commanded a battleship in the Imperial
Japanese Navy, and I'm guessing this is a similar case, but I don't
have any name to provide.
Kevin Ahearn
>Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
>
Robert E. Lee, or maybe Benedict Arnold.
--Kevin, guessing.
"Standing in the middle of nowhere
Wondering how to begin
Caught between tomorrow and yesterday
Between now and then"
--The Kinks
Remove shooting star to reply. Unsolicited commercial mail will be laughed at,
shat upon, and reported to your ISP.
Bill Gawne
> >(Further trivia question: Why does the gold insignia indicate
> >an officer of lesser, rather than greater, rank? Where did the
> >practice come from?)
The Killick hazarded:
> IIRC the practice comes from the feeling that the junior officer,like
> gold, is Malleable and easily formed.
> this may just be old age and a dusty memory attic at work...but I
> think that was the gist of it.
Joyce Melton also allowed as it may have originally been brass.
Anyhow, as nobody else seems to have weighed in, here's what I've
been told:
Back in the days of the Roman Empire, Legionaires who distinguished
themselves in battle were given gold medallions which they wore on
their battle harness. Over time, the 'distinction of gold' came
to be applied to battlefield promotions, where enlisted men were
given commands normally reserved for patrician officers. But
because a head-count plebian could never be equal in rank to a
patrician, the gold rank insignia of the plebian officer was
a way of distinguishing him from the patrician of otherwise
equivalent rank.
During the high middle ages the practice was revived, when a shortage
of noblemen resulted in particularly capable common soldiers being
promoted to command rank. Our modern Major rank came from Sergeant
Major, a Sergeant who had been promoted to the senior officer ranks.
Likewise with Major General, which was once Sergeant Major General.
Furthermore, the gold bar of a 2nd Lieutenant came from the
Lieutenants who 'passed for an officer, but not for a gentleman.'
As with so many things, the lines blurred, and the origins were
largely forgotten. By the time the American Colonies were forming
their own Armed Forces the gold insignia were simply another
quaint military tradition.
[Anyone with better information or definite citations, I'd be
pleased to know about them.]
dani
>
> Nitpick. MOS 11D10 applied to E-1 - E-4. An E-5, was 11D20. In the
early
> 80's, the MOS was changed to 19D.
> Mike
>
That's ok. Nitpick away. Half the time I can't translate from Army to
civilian. The Army released him in the mid-70s and I drafted him a few
years later. Or did he draft me ???? Well he's not here to tell me the
*correct* story so I'll stick with my version....He never knew what hit
him
--dani
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> [Anyone with better information or definite citations, I'd be
> pleased to know about them.]
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov1999/n11221999_9911224.html
Has a different take on it. The explanations of silver vs. gold are at
the bottom of the article.
Joyce Melton
>Our modern Major rank came from Sergeant
>Major, a Sergeant who had been promoted to the senior officer ranks.
I had heard that it came from Captain Major, that is Big Captain, for
a medieval commander of a unit larger than a simple company or a unit
that had other captains as sub-officers. Similarly, lieutenant I had
heard came from Captain Lieutenant; deputy captain; since deputy is
what lieutenant means more or less. It is possible that the word
streams converged and the usage has more than one origin.
Joyce
Bill Gawne
>
> Bill Gawne wrote:
>
> > [Anyone with better information or definite citations, I'd be
> > pleased to know about them.]
>
> http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov1999/n11221999_9911224.html
>
> Has a different take on it. The explanations of silver vs. gold are at
> the bottom of the article.
Thank you. That doesn't really disagree with the story as I got it,
but does put some definitely American detail into it. Especially
interesting about the Infantry colonels wearing a gold eagle on
a silver background.
Kris Overstreet
wrote:
>
>Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
Benedict Arnold (Brigadier Gen. Continental Army/British Regulars)
Albert Sidney Johnston (brevet Brig. Gen, US Army; general, CSA)
Joseph Eggleston Johnston (Quartermaster General, US Army; general,
CSA)
Joseph Wheeler (major general, CSA; major general, USA,
Spanish-American War)
Those are the ones I recall just off the top of my head.
Redneck
Mike Muth
dji...@boingydatasync.com wrote:
> Mike Muth wrote:
> []The torpedo boats in the Philippines were initially US Army vessels.
> Thats odd. I thought the PT boats were USN, and then were turned over
> to the Army during/after the Japanese invasion of the Phillipines.
Well, first they were Army. Then, they were Navy. Then, as you noted,
the Navy turned them over to the Army.
Mike
--
Send E-mail to wuf0170<at>newsguy<dot>com
jhe...@my-deja.com
red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:14:13 GMT, "Mike Muth" <wuf...@newsguy.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the
US?
> Joseph Wheeler (major general, CSA; major general, USA,
> Spanish-American War)
Thank _you_, sir! That one had been driving me batty. My great uncle
Jerome served under him in the Spanish-American War, and I remember
hearing about the CSA-USA oddity. But the name? Dead blank.
--
Jim
"The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart"
Lois McMaster Bujold
Mike Muth
On 19-Dec-2000, red...@detnet.com (Kris Overstreet) wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:14:13 GMT, "Mike Muth" <wuf...@newsguy.com>
> wrote:
> >Which US General also served as a general in an army at war with the US?
> Benedict Arnold (Brigadier Gen. Continental Army/British Regulars)
I think Arnold was only a Colonel in the British Army.
> Albert Sidney Johnston (brevet Brig. Gen, US Army; general, CSA)
This one is iffy as the rank was only a brevet and he continued serving as
Colonel of the 2d Cavalry.
> Joseph Eggleston Johnston (Quartermaster General, US Army; general,
> CSA)
Okay. Brigadier General in 1860, resigned in 1861.
> Joseph Wheeler (major general, CSA; major general, USA,
> Spanish-American War)
Okay.
One more similar to Wheeler:
Fitz Lee. Commanded a corps in the Spanish American War.
Mike
Leonard Erickson
>
> http://home.hawaii.rr.com/johnhayes/navy/pics.html for (rather large, sorry)
> pictures of Rae and I at the Navy B-Day Ball in October, and a page from the
> uniform catalog showing what female Dinner Dress (Blue and White) Jacket
> uniform looks like... and the model wearing white has the regulation tiara.
Somehow the phrase "regulation tiara" _bothers_ me... <g>
Leonard Erickson
>
> wuf...@newsguy.com (Mike Muth) wrote in <91jsb...@enews3.newsguy.com>:
>
> >The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited for "abusing a
> >public animal."
> >
> >Mike
>
> bicycle while intoxicated' and one get it for 'walking while intoxicated'.
Keep in mind that in many (most?) *civilian* jurisdictions, a cop can
arrest you for DUI even if you are riding a bicycle. Bicycles are
subject to most of the laws that apply to motor vehicles...
Netdancer
<3A48FA9C...@krypton.rain.com>:
>Netdancer wrote:
>>
>> wuf...@newsguy.com (Mike Muth) wrote in
>> <91jsb...@enews3.newsguy.com>:
>>
>> >The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited for
>> >"abusing a public animal."
>> >
>> >Mike
>>
>> When I lived onbase at Williams AFB I saw one fgellow get it for 'riding
>> a bicycle while intoxicated' and one get it for 'walking while
>> intoxicated'.
>
>Keep in mind that in many (most?) *civilian* jurisdictions, a cop can
>arrest you for DUI even if you are riding a bicycle. Bicycles are
>subject to most of the laws that apply to motor vehicles...
>
Yep...but this was one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'
things. It was -expressly- forbidden to drive onbase while intoxicated. It
was also forbidden to bike or walk. So...your single option? Call your CO (At
late hours of the night/early hours of the morning) -probably- getting
him/her out of bed, and annoying him/her to no end, to drive out there, pick
you up, and drive you home. In -theory- you could ask the MP's to drive you
home, but they'd then report you to your CO who would then yell at you for
ignoring the 'Call the CO' rule...even though doing what regulations demanded
was a -sure- way to annoy and upset someone in authority over you. This
especially annoyed NCO's/Officer 'involuntary designated drivers' who lived
offbase, some distance away.
Convoluted, neh?
Netdancer&
Leonard Erickson
>
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, in <91gojj$hj3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Mike Muth spake thusly:
> =In some special purpose units, the Army does funny things with ranks
> =which don't fall within the general rules above.
>
> The thing that gets my curiosity up is hearing all the nicknames
> for ranks. Like, 'full-bird colonel,' and so forth (can't even
> remember 'em all). But I have no clue what they're refering to!
> If someone could give a list of the most common 'unofficial' rank
> designations, I'd be obliged.
Well, there's the old Army joke about the rank of "Metal Sargeant". This
rank is conveyed by the people under him. A Metal Sergeant is
distinguished by the silver in his hair, the gold in his teeth and the
lead in his pants... :-)
Leonard Erickson
>
> Yep...but this was one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'
> things. It was -expressly- forbidden to drive onbase while intoxicated. It
> was also forbidden to bike or walk. So...your single option? Call your CO (At
> late hours of the night/early hours of the morning) -probably- getting
> him/her out of bed, and annoying him/her to no end, to drive out there, pick
> you up, and drive you home. In -theory- you could ask the MP's to drive you
> home, but they'd then report you to your CO who would then yell at you for
> ignoring the 'Call the CO' rule...even though doing what regulations demanded
> was a -sure- way to annoy and upset someone in authority over you. This
> especially annoyed NCO's/Officer 'involuntary designated drivers' who lived
> offbase, some distance away.
>
> Convoluted, neh?
Nope. If you read between the lines, the message is "don't get
intoxicated"!
<eg>
Andreas Schaefer
<kal...@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
snip
>Keep in mind that in many (most?) *civilian* jurisdictions, a cop can
>arrest you for DUI even if you are riding a bicycle. Bicycles are
>subject to most of the laws that apply to motor vehicles...
be urban legend) of a suspended driving license for beeing drunk while
pushing a pram.
( well if you endanger traffic ....)
Andreas - I wonder what the result of drunken kickboard / inlineskate
would be; I'm not going to try though - Schaefer
the only nick I ever felt halfway
comfortable with is 'Frosch' German for frog.
So feel free to call me Frog, Andreas, Andrew, Andy.
my crummy homepage is at www.acws.de.
In the Beginning GOD created Heaven and Earth.
Later SHE Created Man - unfortunately SHE used
MS-Create(1.23) TM for that.
Roy Andrew Crabtree
scope of the regulations, and perchance, illuminates the underlying rule inherent therein:
It being the case that calling your CO at the wee hours of the morn could possibly upset
someone in authority over you (as all peons knowte when recognizing in sooth their status a' Life)
And that there is a Real Alternative present within said regulations that allows the omission of such irritation ...
That being:
Netdancer wrote:
> kal...@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote in
> <3A48FA9C...@krypton.rain.com>:
>
> >Netdancer wrote:
> >>
> >> wuf...@newsguy.com (Mike Muth) wrote in
> >> <91jsb...@enews3.newsguy.com>:
> >>
> >> >The strangest action I ever saw was one soldier who was cited for
> >> >"abusing a public animal."
> >> >
> >> >Mike
> >>
> >> When I lived onbase at Williams AFB I saw one fgellow get it for 'riding
> >> a bicycle while intoxicated' and one get it for 'walking while
> >> intoxicated'.
> >
> >Keep in mind that in many (most?) *civilian* jurisdictions, a cop can
> >arrest you for DUI even if you are riding a bicycle. Bicycles are
> >subject to most of the laws that apply to motor vehicles...
> >
>
> Yep...but this was one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'
> things. It was -expressly- forbidden to drive onbase while intoxicated. It
> was also forbidden to bike or walk. So...your single option? Call your CO (At
Not the single option listed above, but The Other ONe Built In:
Do Not Get Drunk in The Wee Hours of The Night
(At Least, Not On Base, Or Where You Need Hand Holding)
Which, of curse, illumines the _awktual_ _awful_ underlying intent of the rules:
To make certain types of individuals cogitate on such a difficult topic as to
Prematurely (Before Passing ON, that is to say)
COme to Recognize
That COs don't like sots on base ..
And Thereby Encourage the True ALternatives:
A) Learn to Hold Your LIquor
B) Learn To Hold Your Thirst
C) Learn To Hold On Off Base
And Thusly:
D) Learn Never To Be Off Base While On Base ...
Done thusly, because there is (available military (hic) history (sic) amply demonstrates)
No Other Method That COuld Conceivably Get Your Attention To: Stop. Doing. That.
Maketh sense, sirrah?
(Similar training techniques are used on PhD candidates at universities to coax them to
Go Home And Sleep
At 3 AM.
.. with much less success, unfortunately ...
[[This is where i learned so much about Punched Cards, Interpreters, Punches, ANd Readers;
Via physics students with umpteen jillion boxes of uninterpreted (no letter printing), wet,
folded/spindled/mutilated cards ot Read Through Th Reader SO As TO Avoid Tape Storage Costs.
You Very Quickly see All Possible Ways for a card to Fail To Read Or Get Lost ...
> late hours of the night/early hours of the morning) -probably- getting
> him/her out of bed, and annoying him/her to no end, to drive out there, pick
> you up, and drive you home. In -theory- you could ask the MP's to drive you
> home, but they'd then report you to your CO who would then yell at you for
> ignoring the 'Call the CO' rule...even though doing what regulations demanded
This is known as 'dynamic tension towards creative problem solving':
1) I _must_ call the CO because XXX
2) But I _can't_ call the CO because XXX (as well; delightful dynamic tension on this fine point of
constructing an adequate quincunx for the normal military Dilemma: No Way Out, Catch 23)
3) Therefore (pain, suffering, humiliation, rage,
deathwish (go Charlie, Sheen or Bronson!),
. absence of available munitions, creativity (PING)):
4) I _MUST_ avoid getting into this situation EVER AGAIN (clear and abundant emphasis on the omphalos
in the ouroboros of this point: this gets the military mind to quit chewing its own ass end...; also why it became
known as GI Joe, rather than GI Jack... apocryphal anecdotally, at least)
which leads to CO sleep quotients marginally above zero as calculated on a divisor of 24 ... occasionally in
real rather than complex numbers (... imaginary, twit!)...
> was a -sure- way to annoy and upset someone in authority over you. This
> especially annoyed NCO's/Officer 'involuntary designated drivers' who lived
> offbase, some distance away.
>
> Convoluted, neh?
Actually, very straightforward, if you shift to a psychologically based method of Pavlovian training (another
oxymoron, but quite appropriate; in any case, Pavlov was a liar). Also: it works.
The simple context is:
The way to train a jackass is:
Leave no other option
Nor anyway to create one
Nor any way out for those stubborn enough to try it anyway
...that is not Exceedingly Expensive And Painful
(Definition of a jackass: Anyone stubborn enough to try it anyway ... which includes most
military men (..another oxymoron), PhDs, teenagers, 18 month olds, and other forms
of putated humanity; most Jackasses [genetically akin to burros and horsies] are NOT the jackasses
(genetically akin to chimpanzees and baboons, with the Occasional Pretty Bleu Face Mandrill
to Grin At You) we intelligent human beings (... another oxymoron?) are ...
Have you noticed that pejorative terminology almost Always Hides The Truth:
We speak of Red Necks (but never red asses)
We speak of Blue Bloods (but never shit faces)
Even in rectificational mode we tend to be rectal olfactional or rectofossal in our effusive refusals ...
After a while there is a tendency to want to cut to the chaste (per se) ...
Unfortunately, as quick as we get rid of it, we get full of it again ...
Cheers.
My solution is: I don't drink. Much.
>
>
> Netdancer&
Roy Andrew Crabtree
Could have sworn he was ... Colonel, then?
A piece of trivia I am interested in: what was the youngest age of a soldier (in the modern era;
useful comparisons from the older times as well) of a soldier/sailor to serve in active combat?
I recollect aged 10-11 on the CSA side during the Civil War but am unsure of the Union,
much less the earliest for post 1875 or so ...
I am aware of one example of 14 years as of the Mexican Expeditionary Forces, and later
in WW I (same individual) ...
Anyone know of any earlier?
jhe...@my-deja.com
Netda...@yahoo.com (Netdancer) wrote:
>
> Yep...but this was one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you
don't'
> things. It was -expressly- forbidden to drive onbase while
intoxicated. It
> was also forbidden to bike or walk. So...your single option? Call
your CO (At
> late hours of the night/early hours of the morning) -probably-
getting
> him/her out of bed, and annoying him/her to no end, to drive out
there, pick
> you up, and drive you home. In -theory- you could ask the MP's to
drive you
> home, but they'd then report you to your CO who would then yell at
you for
> ignoring the 'Call the CO' rule...even though doing what regulations
demanded
> was a -sure- way to annoy and upset someone in authority over you.
This
> especially annoyed NCO's/Officer 'involuntary designated drivers' who
lived
> offbase, some distance away.
>
This apparently varied, either between bases or between services. As a
semi-NCO, I ended up pulling Charge of Quarters duty every now and
then. Nine times out of ten, the base MPs would show up
around "closing time" and dump a semi-conscious soldier or two in my
lap, with the implied responsibility of getting him into bed. This was
smelly and distasteful enough with the new EMs, but when it was a
veteran troop fresh back from 'Nam, it could get downright ugly.
Matthew T. Russotto
Leonard Erickson <kal...@krypton.rain.com> wrote:
}Netdancer wrote:
}
}Keep in mind that in many (most?) *civilian* jurisdictions, a cop can
}arrest you for DUI even if you are riding a bicycle. Bicycles are
}subject to most of the laws that apply to motor vehicles...
Which basically means you can't walk (public intoxication), bike (DUI,
or sometimes lesser punishments for bicycling while intoxicated), or
drive home when drunk. It's also DWI to sleep it off in the car.
This leaves getting someone else to drive you home (pretty tough to do
if you're a drunk), and taxis (pretty tough to do when you spent all
your money at the bar). All legal alternatives exhausted, the drunk
then picks the one where he's least likely to get caught, which is
driving. Thus in an attempt to make everything illegal, the
government makes the worst alternative appear the most attractive.
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
Alison
2000 17:42:05 GMT:
>It's also DWI to sleep it off in the car.
This varies by jurisdiction, actually - in at least a few places, the
car must be running to qualify as a DWI. Which would be a Bad Idea
<tm> if one was planning to sleep it off, in any case :-)
Alison
(remove 'SPAMKILL' from address to reply)