In Every Clime And Place, since 10 Nov 1775
Bill Gawne
It's a cold, clear, windy night in Suffolk county as Bill parks the Saturn
and steps out. The warmth of the Place beckons, and he runs his hands down
the back of his uniform coat smoothing the creases into place.
Opening the door, he steps into Callahans, and slips the flat garrison
cap from his head. He waves to friends, and walks across the room - as
he has so many times before - to the end of the bar where he is wont to
stay.
Mike Callahan lifts a bottle of Tun Tavern lager from the cooler, and
pops the cap off - pouring it into a chilled glass and setting the dark
liquid in front of the Marine. "Happy Birthday, Marine." Mike says with
a smile, "That one's on the house. The rest you can pay for."
"Thank you Mike." Bill smiles in reply. He turns and surveys the room,
looking for friends present.
Those who notice such things see that Bill wears the forrest green service
uniform, with khaki shirt and tie. Above the left breast pocket of his
coat his rifle expert and pistol sharpshooter badges are topped by four
rows of varicolored ribbons. On the arms of the coat are the three up
and three down chevrons of a Master Sergeant of Marines, with crossed
rifles in the middle of them. His forearms carry five service stripes,
each denoting four years continuous service. Some who have been around
long enough know that Bill served for 22 years before he retired from the
service in April of 1995.
Bill waves and smiles at several friends who know why this day is special
for him and for all US Marines. It was on this day in 1775 that the
Continental Congress first enacted legislation providing for two battalions
of Marines for service with the ships of the infant Navy and ashore in
support of the Continental militia forces. An awful lot has passed since
then.
It's a long and rich history, probably a bit long for a newsgroup post...
But Bill has been thinking on it today... the Continental Marines who
rowed George Washington across the Delaware river north of Trenton ... the
Marines of the young Corps who crossed the north African desert with
Lieutenant Presley Neville O'Bannon in 1804 to take the Barbary pirate
stronghold of Derne Tripoli ... the Marines who fought in Mexico ...
Luke Quinn and Israel Green at Harpers Ferry ... US Marines fighting
CS Marines at Fort Fisher North Carolina ... the long years of service
as American 'colonial infantry' in the Caribbean and in China ... the
Marines of the Allied Expeditionary Force fighting their way through
Belleau Wood - wresting ground and respect from their foes, coming to
be known as 'tuefelhundten' - devil dogs - by their German adversaries...
Marines in Haiti and Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic between the
World Wars ... Marines fighting across the beaches of Guadalcanal and
Saipan and Tinian and Tarawa and numerous other half-forgotten Pacific
atolls ... Marines going ashore at Inchon Korea, where Douglas MacArthur
estimated they had 'One chance in ten thousand' of success - and succeeding...
Marines freezing and fighting in the icy frozen waste of the Choisin
Reservoir ... Marines fighting a myriad small actions during the US's
longest war-that-wasn't-a-war, in VietNam (Bill smiles wryly, thinking
of his "Southeast Asian War Games 1964-1975, Second Place Team" patch),
Marines in Beirut Lebanon... Marines in Panama... Marines in Kuwait...
And still, today, the Marine Expeditionary units are at sea in every
ocean of the world. Ready to go where the President directs. Still
in every clime and place.
And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
"...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
we remember all of those who have gone before.
The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>>CRASH<<
Semper Fidelis
[This is a repost of my birthday post from last year. I didn't have
time to write a new one for this year, and to tell you the truth I still
find this one says what I want to say. -Bill]
--
Bill Gawne, MSgt USMCR(Ret)
The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-2
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Bill Gawne wrote:
> >>CRASH<<
>
> Semper Fidelis
<crash!>
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On 10 Nov 1997 11:12:16 GMT, ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) wrote:
>We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
>we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
>The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
>reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
>>>CRASH<<
*crash*
Eppur si muove!
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
Page newly updated
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
Vicky Rowe
Bill Gawne wrote:
>
<snip of a moving post>
*******crash******************>
Geillis --....from the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of
Tripoli......
--
===========================================
http://www.rcci.com/vicky
" No good deed ever goes unpunished" --Anonymous
To mail me: remove the word dot from my replyto.
My opinions etc.
R. Wald
>On 10 Nov 1997 11:12:16 GMT, ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) wrote:
>
>
>>We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
>>we remember all of those who have gone before.
>>
>>The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
>>reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>>
>>>>CRASH<<
Rivka's glass follows Bill's into the fireplace with a resounding CRASH.
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Rebecca L. Wald | All I ask of life is a constant and exaggerated
graduate student | sense of my own importance.
U Iowa Psych Dept. |
Ron Swartzendruber
In article <646q6g$e4n$1...@bach.cs.columbia.edu>, ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) was heard to say:
>It's a cold, clear, windy night ....
> [ SNIP: Bill's heartfelt birthday toast to the Marine Corps ]
>
>>>CRASH<<
>
>Semper Fidelis
Falconer also steps up to the line, somewhat tentatively.
"I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
treading on sensitive ground, especially after the recent flamewar and
because Veterans' Day is tomorrow, but I really feel that I need to
say this."
"As some of you know, I was brought up Mennonite, with an ethic of
nonviolence. I believed that anything to do with the military was
evil, although that was never directly taught to me. But the more I
read, and the more people I talked to from other walks of life, the
more I realized that I had drawn the wrong conclusion; the military
services are primarily filled with those who love their country and
their families. Good people."
"Yet I would be lying to you if I said I wholeheartedly support the
military. And I have a lot of issues with our society, and government,
and those who cynically manipulate us to get money and power (I live
in the USA, in case it's not obvious.) And I still believe that
killing is wrong, although, tragically, wrong things are sometimes
necessary in this messed-up world we live in."
"I had extremely mixed feelings while reading the list of places
where the Corps has served with honor. For many of those places, I
strongly disagree with the reasons why the Marines were sent in, and
the motives of those who sent them. Yet I cannot fault the soldiers
who went, and laid down their lives in the line of duty. I remember
stories told by veterans of Vietnam about how they were insulted and
spit on when they returned home, and my heart is filled with shame for
those who believe as I do but forgot that peace begins with kindness
and respect, one person at a time."
Falconer pauses, sipping his drink. A look of sadness, confusion,
and yet resolution crosses his face as he continues.
"I am torn inside, for I believe in peace, and long for it; yet the
world is complex and no simplistic solutions will work. Those who laid
down their lives did so for a system that was and is not perfect, a
government that has done many things with which I can never agree, and
yet has given me the freedom, at least in name, not to agree with
them. A system that has enabled me to live in the privileged
conditions that I enjoy, even though they are gained at the expense of
others. So, as I said, I am torn."
"I hate much of what our government has become and the things it is
doing. I hate the fact that honorable men and women are sent to do
dishonorable jobs while those that send them stay home and get rich
from their spilled blood."
"Yet nearly all those who served did so for the oldest and truest
values; loyalty to the tribe and love of family. "Greater love has no
one than this, than he lay down his life for his friends."
"To them I give honor. They deserve it."
"May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
"May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
"May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
"May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
* * * * C R A S H * * * *
"Peace."
----Falconer
Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
flamed to death on this one. I said this because I believe in it, and
felt that I needed to take a stand on the eve of this holiday which
has been too often turned into a jingoistic celebration of the
government rather than a solemn day of honor for the good people who
served. All I ask is that if you must get personal, please take it to
email and spare your fellow patrons the mess. I will respond
respectfully to any comments or criticisms that are offered
respectfully, and politely ignore any irrelevant flames.
Bill, I'm especially looking for your comments. I know this is an
issue very close to your heart. It is not my intention to besmirch
your honor or that of the Marine Corps; if you feel that I have,
please feel free to tell me!
Please email replies as well as posting; my newsfeed is really spotty!
Ron Swartzendruber Hacker, Juggler, Writer, Paradox. Human Being.
Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom (Note: Remove SPAMSHIELD to email me!)
"Anarchy means having to put up with things that really piss you off."
Laura Packer 5-2027
On 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gawne wrote:
<snip of an excellent post>
> And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
> return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
> "...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
> after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
> country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
> we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
> The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
> reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
> >>CRASH<<
>
> Semper Fidelis
>
<<<CRASH>>>
Laura
storyteller, folklorist, dreamer
gwithnel
Bill Gawne wrote:
SNIP
> Those who notice such things see that Bill wears the forrest green service
> uniform, with khaki shirt and tie. Above the left breast pocket of his
> coat his rifle expert and pistol sharpshooter badges are topped by four
> rows of varicolored ribbons. On the arms of the coat are the three up
> and three down chevrons of a Master Sergeant of Marines, with crossed
> rifles in the middle of them. His forearms carry five service stripes,
> each denoting four years continuous service. Some who have been around
> long enough know that Bill served for 22 years before he retired from the
> service in April of 1995.
>
The Kosher Viking can't match Bill's collection, having only 2 rows of
ribbons, the rifle & pistol expert badges and the 3 up over crossed
rifles of a Sergeant (E-5)
Snip again
> return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
> "...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
> after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
> country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
> we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
> The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
> reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
> >>CRASH<<
>
> Semper Fidelis
>
> [This is a repost of my birthday post from last year. I didn't have
> time to write a new one for this year, and to tell you the truth I still
> find this one says what I want to say. -Bill]
>
> --
> Bill Gawne, MSgt USMCR(Ret)
> The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
> its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
> demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-2
I don't know any way to say it better. I always said you can trust a
Master Sergeant to get it right.
"Semper Fidelis" rings out again, and the former embarkation NCO of
Marine Attack Squadron 211 tosses his glass into the fireplace with
Bill's
Geoff Withnell
gwit...@concentric.net
Droewyn
> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
>
> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
>
> "May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
>
> Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
>
> * * * * C R A S H * * * *
Droewyn smashes her glass after Falconers and momentarily looks wistfully
around for another one. Those were four equally beautiful toasts, worth
seperate glasses.
Droewyn http://www.msu.edu/~ashcraf3
* * * *
there's a hell of a good universe next door; let's go! -- e e cummings
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury aka Cali4nia
Ron Swartzendruber wrote:
> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
> "May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
>
> Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
>
> * * * * C R A S H * * * *
< crash! >
> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
> flamed to death on this one.
Not by me, you won't. If you want flames from me, buddy, you'll have to
do better than a civil presentation of a position you've obviously put a
lot of thought into :>
(I may be a fool occasionally, but I try hard not to be the kind of fool
who thinks that the only good ideas come from people who think like me).
Regards,
Erick Vermillion-Salsbury (aka Cali4nia)
http://www.concentric.net/~erick
dki...@valunet.com
In article , ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu says...
>
[much good stuff snipped and saved]
>Reservoir ... Marines fighting a myriad small actions during the US's
>longest war-that-wasn't-a-war, in VietNam (Bill smiles wryly, thinking
>of his "Southeast Asian War Games 1964-1975, Second Place Team" patch),
"Been there, done that, got the T-shirt..."
[more good stuff snipped and saved]
>And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
>return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
>"...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
>after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
>country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
>we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
>The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
>reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
>>>CRASH<<
>
>Semper Fidelis
>
>[This is a repost of my birthday post from last year. I didn't have
>time to write a new one for this year, and to tell you the truth I still
>find this one says what I want to say. -Bill]
>
>--
>Bill Gawne, MSgt USMCR(Ret)
>The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
>its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
>demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-2
Thanks, Top! You said it as well as I've ever heard it.
I'll second your toast, and add my own--
"To absent friends, Semper Fi!"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CRASH<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Dave, the Leatherneck on the rafters,
"Too many books, not enough time." (Or money.) [Or space.]
R. Wald
(posted & mailed)
In article <647kc7$39k...@falconer.shentel.net>,
Ron Swartzendruber <Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom> wrote:
>
> "I hate much of what our government has become and the things it is
>doing. I hate the fact that honorable men and women are sent to do
>dishonorable jobs while those that send them stay home and get rich
>from their spilled blood."
>
> "Yet nearly all those who served did so for the oldest and truest
>values; loyalty to the tribe and love of family. "Greater love has no
>one than this, than he lay down his life for his friends."
>
> "To them I give honor. They deserve it."
>
> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
>
> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
>
> "May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
>
> Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
>
> * * * * C R A S H * * * *
Rivka's glass follows Falconer's into the fireplace. CRASH!
"May we all remember the difference between being against war, and being
against soldiers," she adds soberly. "I thought that was a beautiful and
sensitive post, Falconer, and I hope you don't get flamed for it.
Principled disagreement, I could see. But I thought your post was highly
respectful, and I hope the replies will be in the same vein."
gwithnel
Ron Swartzendruber wrote:
>
> In article <646q6g$e4n$1...@bach.cs.columbia.edu>, ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) was heard to say:
> >It's a cold, clear, windy night ....
> > [ SNIP: Bill's heartfelt birthday toast to the Marine Corps ]
>
SNIP of Falconer's moving statement of belief.
> "Peace."
> ----Falconer
>
> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
> flamed to death on this one. I said this because I believe in it, and
> felt that I needed to take a stand on the eve of this holiday which
> has been too often turned into a jingoistic celebration of the
> government rather than a solemn day of honor for the good people who
> served. All I ask is that if you must get personal, please take it to
> email and spare your fellow patrons the mess. I will respond
> respectfully to any comments or criticisms that are offered
> respectfully, and politely ignore any irrelevant flames.
>
> Bill, I'm especially looking for your comments. I know this is an
> issue very close to your heart. It is not my intention to besmirch
> your honor or that of the Marine Corps; if you feel that I have,
> please feel free to tell me!
>
> Please email replies as well as posting; my newsfeed is really spotty!
>
> Ron Swartzendruber Hacker, Juggler, Writer, Paradox. Human Being.
> Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom (Note: Remove SPAMSHIELD to email me!)
> "Anarchy means having to put up with things that really piss you off."
I don't know how Bill feels, but I was in that "non-war" myself.
Believe me, *please* - No one wants or desires peace more than those of
us with to much familiarity with war. I do not share your beliefs, but
I have no quarrel with you. I'm just proud to have (as I believe)
played a part in keeping the world such that you can hold them in
relative peace.
Geoff Withnell
gwit...@concentric.net
KertRats
> Falconer also steps up to the line, somewhat tentatively.
Courage often begins with a wavering step.
I read your post - all of it - and I applaud your position, agree
with most (if not really all) of it, and admire YOUR courage.
As ex-Army ('68-'70) I would be honored to have my glass
share the fireplace with yours.
To all who served, serve, and shall serve as God directs --
We shall honor you!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CRASH! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
- or, as Frog said to Toad, "Time's sure fun when you're having flies."
Gesi Rovario
I believe I heard Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom (Ron Swartzendruber)
say:
>In article <646q6g$e4n$1...@bach.cs.columbia.edu>, ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) was heard to say:
>>It's a cold, clear, windy night ....
>> [ SNIP: Bill's heartfelt birthday toast to the Marine Corps ]
>>
>>>>CRASH<<
>>
>>Semper Fidelis
>
> Falconer also steps up to the line, somewhat tentatively.
>
> "I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
>treading on sensitive ground, especially after the recent flamewar and
>because Veterans' Day is tomorrow, but I really feel that I need to
>say this."
<snipped a well thought out toast that came straight from the heart.>
> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
>flamed to death on this one. I said this because I believe in it, and
>felt that I needed to take a stand on the eve of this holiday which
>has been too often turned into a jingoistic celebration of the
>government rather than a solemn day of honor for the good people who
>served. All I ask is that if you must get personal, please take it to
>email and spare your fellow patrons the mess. I will respond
>respectfully to any comments or criticisms that are offered
>respectfully, and politely ignore any irrelevant flames.
>
> Bill, I'm especially looking for your comments. I know this is an
>issue very close to your heart. It is not my intention to besmirch
>your honor or that of the Marine Corps; if you feel that I have,
>please feel free to tell me!
I respect the hell out of you for saying this. You said it quite well,
and, honestly, *anyone* who gives you the slightest flame over this is
an ass and doesn't deserve to be dealt with. Discussion is one thing,
but, even if someone is offended by what you said, the way you put it
does *not* invite flammage.
I will always toast to Peace. !!!!!CRASH!!!!!
I feel the same way you do about many issues, but I'll speak about
that in another post. I just wanted to let you know that, no matter
what my feelings on the subject, you shouldn't and probably won't have
to contend with any flames.
Gesi
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every
four Americans is suffering from some form of mental
illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're
okay,then it's you.
-Rita Mae Brown
Don Paul
Ron Swartzendruber <Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom> wrote in article
<647kc7$39k...@falconer.shentel.net>...
> "I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
> treading on sensitive ground, SNIP>
> "I am torn inside, for I believe in peace, and long for it; yet the
> world is complex and no simplistic solutions will work. SNIP> "Yet
nearly all those who served did so for the oldest and truest
> values; loyalty to the tribe and love of family. "Greater love has no
> one than this, than he lay down his life for his friends."
"SNIP
> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
> flamed to death on this one. SNIP
Not in my book. In fact, I'd like to thank you publicly for saying
something I thought needed to be said. You balanced my indecision
perfectly.
The military: Can't live with them, can't die without them.
Or is that: Can't die with them, can't live without them?
As a foreigner, (who would probably be speaking German today, were it not
for Sgt. Bill and his ilk - for which I give eternal thanks. Writing copy
for Volkswagen is one thing, trying to pronounce "Voorsprung durch tecnik"
is something else) I thought it polite to stay out of the Marine Civil War
of 1997.
But as a foreigner who lived under military rule (our police force was an
extension of the military), as a conscript unwilling to spend the rest of
his life in jail for his beliefs (which could explain why I'm in
advertising today - hey, which way's the wind blowing?), as someone who saw
that Might was not necessarily Right...well, forgive me if I take my
military with a pinch of salt.
I too am bewildered, but what's new.
So, I'm not going to rain on the parade. Enjoy the celebrations. But I saw
too many graves at Paschendaele marked "A British Soldier. Known only to
God" to try to make sense of it all.
Greetings from Cape Town, South Africa
. __________________
/ \/ Billy was a mountain \
/ / Ethel was a tree, growing \
/ off of his shoulder \
Bob Murray, Jr.
]"...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
]after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
]country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
]we remember all of those who have gone before.
CRASH!
Bob
bill thater
In article <647kc7$39k...@falconer.shentel.net>, Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom wrote:
:>who went, and laid down their lives in the line of duty. I remember
:>stories told by veterans of Vietnam about how they were insulted and
:>spit on when they returned home, and my heart is filled with shame for
i was called a "baby killer" and worse.
:>
:> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
they won't be as long as people like me are arround.
:> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
i tend to doubt this will ever happen.
:>
:> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
a very smart general once said "those that hate war the most are those best
trained in it's execution."
Bill Thater, KiTA, BOfH bth...@relay.cablexpress.com
=====================================================
While Eyeore frets and Piglet hesitates and Rabbit
calculates and Owl pontificates Pooh just *is*.
Droewyn
> country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
> we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
> reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
> >>CRASH<<
>
> Semper Fidelis
***crash**** Well said, Bill! And a snappy uniform!
Brice D. Fleckenstein
> > "Yet I would be lying to you if I said I wholeheartedly support the
> > military.
>
> a lot of policy in the US Department of Defense I disagree with."
Not to mention the rest of the Government....
> > "I had extremely mixed feelings while reading the list of places
> > where the Corps has served with honor. For many of those places, I
> > strongly disagree with the reasons why the Marines were sent in, and
> > the motives of those who sent them.
>
> "Believe me Ron, the Marines did too. Read Major General Commandant
> Smedley D. Butler's retirement speech sometime."
Seems to be true of a lot of us military types.
No insult intended to anyone that served in Vietnam, but we should
NEVER have been there.
Some decade I'll figure out how the French suckered us into fighting
round 2 of the Vietnam Revolutionary War - we TOLD them to let Vietnam
go independent after WW II, and likely things would have gone a LOT
better in that part of the world had they listened.
> "Trust me. Those who have gone off and felt hung out to dry didn't much
> like it either."
I have to imagine - no wars (or even battles) while I was in. I was
mildly supprised....
> > Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
> >
> > * * * * C R A S H * * * *
>
> As a water glass, hastily drained, follows it across the Penrose tiles
> to shatter against the inside of the parabolic reflector.
>
> CCCRRRRAAASSSHHH.......
And a drained Diet Pepsi can follows on a high trajectory....
CRASH!!!!!
--
"It takes as much courage to try and fail, as it does to try and
succeed." - Anne Lindburg
If this was in a newsgroup message, it was likely emailed to you as
well.
My opinions are my own, and no others. Reply-to has been de-spammed.
Real email address below.
Brice D. Fleckenstein IRC: QuintLeo or FiveLions (the past and
future LeoOnRoad too)
EMail: ci...@surf-ici.com UnderNet - Callahans EFNet -
Pagan_Tea_House
Saoba
>Bill waves and smiles at several friends who know why this day is special
>for him and for all US Marines. It was on this day in 1775 that the
>Continental Congress first enacted legislation providing for two battalions
>of Marines for service with the ships of the infant Navy and ashore in
>support of the Continental militia forces. An awful lot has passed since
>then.
(snip)
>And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
>return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
>"...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
>after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
>country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
>we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
>The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
>reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>>>CRASH<<
BarbaraFox sends her glass into the fireplace after Bill's.
She recalls the evenings her daughter and her friends drove in to
visit, a pack of cheerful, articulate kids with the can-do attitude and
that unmistakable esprit de corps. The house seems *much* smaller
with a half a dozen Marines in it.
"Semper Fi!"
"...for there is hope in two women, help in three women, strength in
four, joy in five, power in six and against seven, no gate may stand."
Sheri S. Tepper "Gibbon's Decline and Fall"
Bill Gawne
[posted & e-mailed]
>Sybel is one who notices. Then memories shift and she remembers
>when she wore a uniform that looks simular, but had a skirt.
>Bill's uniform was only the crossed swords
Rifles
> and two stripes up. A few less ribbons, a few less service stripes.
> Memories blur back to reality.
>
>>Bill waves and smiles at several friends who know why this day is special
>>for him and for all US Marines.
>
>Am I still a friend, Bill?
Yes Pat. You most assuredly are.
>Yes, I know why this day is special, and
>I join the others, those who have served in the Marines as we have,
>and those who have not, in wishing you, "Happy 222th Birthday!"
Thank you. And the same to you, Marine.
>Semper Fi, Corporal Gawne.
Back at you, PFC Scammon.
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
Senior Science Instrument Operations Analyst, Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic
Explorer. Retired Master Sergeant USMCR. Nothing I post in alt.callahans
represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne
Dr.Rob
Bill Gawne wrote:
> It's a cold, clear, windy night in Suffolk county as Bill parks the Saturn
> and steps out. The warmth of the Place beckons, and he runs his hands down
> the back of his uniform coat smoothing the creases into place.
>
> Opening the door, he steps into Callahans, and slips the flat garrison
> cap from his head. He waves to friends, and walks across the room - as
> he has so many times before - to the end of the bar where he is wont to
> stay.
>
> Mike Callahan lifts a bottle of Tun Tavern lager from the cooler, and
> pops the cap off - pouring it into a chilled glass and setting the dark
> liquid in front of the Marine. "Happy Birthday, Marine." Mike says with
> a smile, "That one's on the house. The rest you can pay for."
>
> "Thank you Mike." Bill smiles in reply. He turns and surveys the room,
> looking for friends present.
>
> Those who notice such things see that Bill wears the forrest green service
> uniform, with khaki shirt and tie. Above the left breast pocket of his
> coat his rifle expert and pistol sharpshooter badges are topped by four
> rows of varicolored ribbons. On the arms of the coat are the three up
> and three down chevrons of a Master Sergeant of Marines, with crossed
> rifles in the middle of them. His forearms carry five service stripes,
> each denoting four years continuous service. Some who have been around
> long enough know that Bill served for 22 years before he retired from the
> service in April of 1995.
>
> Bill waves and smiles at several friends who know why this day is special
> for him and for all US Marines. It was on this day in 1775 that the
> Continental Congress first enacted legislation providing for two battalions
> of Marines for service with the ships of the infant Navy and ashore in
> support of the Continental militia forces. An awful lot has passed since
> then.
>
> It's a long and rich history, probably a bit long for a newsgroup post...
> But Bill has been thinking on it today... the Continental Marines who
> rowed George Washington across the Delaware river north of Trenton ... the
> Marines of the young Corps who crossed the north African desert with
> Lieutenant Presley Neville O'Bannon in 1804 to take the Barbary pirate
> stronghold of Derne Tripoli ... the Marines who fought in Mexico ...
> Luke Quinn and Israel Green at Harpers Ferry ... US Marines fighting
> CS Marines at Fort Fisher North Carolina ... the long years of service
> as American 'colonial infantry' in the Caribbean and in China ... the
> Marines of the Allied Expeditionary Force fighting their way through
> Belleau Wood - wresting ground and respect from their foes, coming to
> be known as 'tuefelhundten' - devil dogs - by their German adversaries...
> Marines in Haiti and Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic between the
> World Wars ... Marines fighting across the beaches of Guadalcanal and
> Saipan and Tinian and Tarawa and numerous other half-forgotten Pacific
> atolls ... Marines going ashore at Inchon Korea, where Douglas MacArthur
> estimated they had 'One chance in ten thousand' of success - and succeeding...
> Marines freezing and fighting in the icy frozen waste of the Choisin
> Reservoir ... Marines fighting a myriad small actions during the US's
> longest war-that-wasn't-a-war, in VietNam (Bill smiles wryly, thinking
> of his "Southeast Asian War Games 1964-1975, Second Place Team" patch),
> Marines in Beirut Lebanon... Marines in Panama... Marines in Kuwait...
>
> And still, today, the Marine Expeditionary units are at sea in every
> ocean of the world. Ready to go where the President directs. Still
> in every clime and place.
>
> And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
> return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
> "...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
> after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
> country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
> we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
> The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
> reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
> >>CRASH<<
>
> Semper Fidelis
>
> [This is a repost of my birthday post from last year. I didn't have
> time to write a new one for this year, and to tell you the truth I still
> find this one says what I want to say. -Bill]
>
> --
> Bill Gawne, MSgt USMCR(Ret)
> The nation continues to invest in a Marine Corps based in large part on
> its confidence that Marine forces will prevail, even under the most
> demanding circumstances. - Introduction to FMFM 1-2
Bill, thank you.
I'm afraid my only uniform has an Eagle hanging on a red, white and blue ribbon.
I've always respected the services even though I was not physically fit to join.
I'd wanted to fly, but my eyes were not right. I'd wanted to march, but my lungs
were not either. I've worked with the men in blue, side-by-side as a civilian,
and married in a base chapel with the father-of-the-bride in mess dress and eagles
on the collar. My research contracts include Navy and Air Force, and if my sons
wish to join, I will wish them godspeed. And if, in great need, my country should
need a rotund soul who's mind is sharp, I will serve.
Last Sunday's Parade magazine included an article on how the Corps takes ruffians
and turns them into Men. And R.A.H. wrote that the great lesson of Service is to
put the welfare of "The Group" (your family, your Corps, your Country) above your
own.
TOAST! to the Corps, and to the Services, and to my Father-in-law, James S. Knox,
Sr., Col., USAF (ret) West Point Class of '54, who passed away last year of
service-related causes.
>>>>>>>CRASH<<<<<<<<<<
Dr.Rob
Ben
ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) wrote:
<Respectful snip of Marine Corps History>
>And again and again, as they do every year at this time, Bill's thoughts
>return to the words of the 13th Commandant, John A. LeJeune, who wrote:
>"...and in the long years of peace, at home and overseas, generation
>after generation of Marines have grown gray in the service of their
>country." We, who have grown gray, are the fortunate ones. And tonight
>we remember all of those who have gone before.
>
>The empty beer glass arches through the air and into the parabolic
>reflector of the fireplace, where it shatters with a satisfying
>
>>>CRASH<<
>
>Semper Fidelis
* * * * * * * * * * * KA-RASHHHH! - - KA-RASHHHH! * * * * * * * * *
Two more glasses, one following another, shatter in the Fireplace.
=====================================================================
An', after, I met 'im all over the world, a-doin' all kinds of things,
Like landin' 'isself with a Gatlin' gun to talk to them 'eathen kings;
'E sleeps in an 'ammick instead of a cot, an' 'e drills with the deck
on a slew,
An' 'e sweats like a Jolly-'Er Majesty's Jolly-soldier an' sailor too!
For there isn't a job o' the earth the beggar don't know, nor do-
You can leave 'im at night on a bald man's 'ead, to paddle 'is own
canoe-
'E's sort of a blooming cosmopolouse-soldier and sailor too.
R. Kipling, "Soldier an' sailor too"
=====================================================================
Three cheers for the Marines! --
and yet another
************* CRASH!!! **********
Ben
Ben
Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom (Ron Swartzendruber) wrote:
>ga...@eta.pha.jhu.edu (Bill Gawne) was heard to say:
>>It's a cold, clear, windy night ....
>> [ SNIP: Bill's heartfelt birthday toast to the Marine Corps ]
>>
>>>>CRASH<<
>>
>>Semper Fidelis
>
> Falconer also steps up to the line, somewhat tentatively.
>
> "I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
>treading on sensitive ground, especially after the recent flamewar and
>because Veterans' Day is tomorrow, but I really feel that I need to
>say this."
<Snip of pacifist beliefs>
> "Yet nearly all those who served did so for the oldest and truest
> values; loyalty to the tribe and love of family. "Greater love has no
> one than this, than he lay down his life for his friends."
>
> "To them I give honor. They deserve it."
>
> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
>
> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
>
> "May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
>
> Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
>
> * * * * C R A S H * * * *
>
> "Peace."
Falconer - you have not said anything in this post that any soldier
who has been in combat, or can use thinking in place of testosterone,
would disagree with.
Do you really believe that soldiers *want* to go into combat? To die?
Sir, we go into combat because we *must*. Because we have agreed that
our country needs us, and that our government is the representative
speaker for our country. We go into combat because there's no other
choice.
I have taken my tour of duty in the Army. For myself, I believe it to
be a duty of every capable citizen to do so; and yet, I oppose the
draft with all my heart. The two are *not* incompatible - in fact,
they are two sides of the same coin, irretrievably joined. I believe
in my duty to freedom... and I believe that the duty exists _because_
of that freedom.
My hat is off to you, for stating your beliefs so clearly; consider
your toast joined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CRASH!!!! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Ben
Bill Gawne
[posted & e-mailed]
Ron Swartzendruber aka Falconer:
> "I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
> treading on sensitive ground, especially after the recent flamewar and
> because Veterans' Day is tomorrow, but I really feel that I need to
> say this."
Bill nods, stepping away from the chalkline and listening.
(Through the USENET discontunity it's now the day _after_ Veterans' Day,
but this discussion can go on for a while I imagine.)
> "As some of you know, I was brought up Mennonite, with an ethic of
> nonviolence. I believed that anything to do with the military was
> evil, although that was never directly taught to me. But the more I
> read, and the more people I talked to from other walks of life, the
> more I realized that I had drawn the wrong conclusion; the military
> services are primarily filled with those who love their country and
> their families. Good people."
"Thank you."
> "Yet I would be lying to you if I said I wholeheartedly support the
> military.
"That's OK Ron," Bill interjects, "I'd be lying to say that too. There's
a lot of policy in the US Department of Defense I disagree with."
> And I have a lot of issues with our society, and government,
> and those who cynically manipulate us to get money and power (I live
> in the USA, in case it's not obvious.) And I still believe that
> killing is wrong, although, tragically, wrong things are sometimes
> necessary in this messed-up world we live in."
"And... sometimes you realize that the difference is not between right
and wrong, but between possibilities. When the possibility you prefer
requires violent conflict, then it follows that violent conflict occurs."
> "I had extremely mixed feelings while reading the list of places
> where the Corps has served with honor. For many of those places, I
> strongly disagree with the reasons why the Marines were sent in, and
> the motives of those who sent them.
"Believe me Ron, the Marines did too. Read Major General Commandant
Smedley D. Butler's retirement speech sometime."
> Yet I cannot fault the soldiers
> who went, and laid down their lives in the line of duty. I remember
> stories told by veterans of Vietnam about how they were insulted and
> spit on when they returned home, and my heart is filled with shame for
> those who believe as I do but forgot that peace begins with kindness
> and respect, one person at a time."
"It's always easier to deal with an abstraction, a demonization, than
with a real live person. Much easier to make them less-than-human that way."
> "I am torn inside, for I believe in peace, and long for it; yet the
> world is complex and no simplistic solutions will work. Those who laid
> down their lives did so for a system that was and is not perfect, a
> government that has done many things with which I can never agree, and
> yet has given me the freedom, at least in name, not to agree with
> them. A system that has enabled me to live in the privileged
> conditions that I enjoy, even though they are gained at the expense of
> others. So, as I said, I am torn."
"It's OK Ron. I didn't stand out there in the rain at night with a
rifle just for people who might happen to agree with me. Y'know?"
"I think what I hear you saying is that you recognize the need for
vigilance, but question the choices made in the past for where to
use force. No problem with that. Heck, *I* question those choices
too. Lots of them."
> "I hate much of what our government has become and the things it is
> doing. I hate the fact that honorable men and women are sent to do
> dishonorable jobs while those that send them stay home and get rich
> from their spilled blood."
"Trust me. Those who have gone off and felt hung out to dry didn't much
like it either."
> "Yet nearly all those who served did so for the oldest and truest
> values; loyalty to the tribe and love of family. "Greater love has no
> one than this, than he lay down his life for his friends."
"Yep."
> "To them I give honor. They deserve it."
>
> "May those who never came back never be forgotten!"
> "May those who did always be respected by those they served!"
>
> "May the day soon come when no one has to die by violence!"
>
> "May we never forget that, in the end, we're all in this together!"
>
> Falconer flings his glass into the fireplace with a resounding
>
> * * * * C R A S H * * * *
As a water glass, hastily drained, follows it across the Penrose tiles
to shatter against the inside of the parabolic reflector.
CCCRRRRAAASSSHHH.......
> "Peace."
"Peace Ron. *WITH* freedom."
> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
> flamed to death on this one.
"Nah. I've been waiting two days for this to show up, and reading
lots of followups to it. Nobody's going to flame you Ron. Not for
this."
Bill looks around. "Somebody want to prove me wrong?" he asks with
a cold note in his voice.
> I said this because I believe in it, and
> felt that I needed to take a stand on the eve of this holiday which
> has been too often turned into a jingoistic celebration of the
> government rather than a solemn day of honor for the good people who
> served.
"And I thank you for your heartfelt thoughts Ron."
> Bill, I'm especially looking for your comments.
"Wait's over."
> I know this is an
> issue very close to your heart. It is not my intention to besmirch
> your honor or that of the Marine Corps; if you feel that I have,
> please feel free to tell me!
"Good Lord no. You did kind of noodle the thread off in a direction that
I think might have gone better from DJ's Veterans Day post, but I have
no problem with that. The Marine Corps Birthday is only one day before
Veterans Day, and the celebrations of the two do kind of naturally merge."
"Ron, I'm against conscription. The Corps has only taken draftees during
WW II and briefly during Vietnam. We're volunteers, and for the most part
we're people who are pretty much what you said above. I can't think of
many Marines I've known who wouldn't support your right to express the
opinions you've offered."
--
Brice D. Fleckenstein
> It's really something that could only have sprung from
> American society."
>
Uh, Bill....
I hate to disagree, but the early Marine Corp traditions and methods
were directly adopted from British Marines.
Y'all have since reshaped those into something uniquely American, but
some of the roots are still there and recognisable.
Examples? The cutlass (only for cerimonial use now, granted), the
bright dress uniforms AND to some degree the color of those uniforms,
much of the rank system...
WareWolf96
WareWolf puts down his copy of Richard Newcomb's book "Iwo Jima" ,
takes a thoughtful draught of his drink and stands.
"You know, one of the formative experiences of my life was the simple act
of driving through Camp LeJeune (North Carolina's main Marine base) and
just looking at the names of the streets and housing developments: Tarawa
Terrace, Belleau Wood Drive, and the Beirut Memorial road (parkway?drive? I
don't remember).
I reflected at the time that all of those place names reflected places
where Marines got killed in absolutely horrifying numbers. And thinking,
"What a bunch of death-worshiping psychopaths these guys are!"
Later, I had cause to amend this to "Well, I'm just glad the crazy
sumbitches are on OUR side!"
Well, time and further study have granted me some slightly greater
wisdom and perspective, to the point where I can now say:
To America's Samurai...the United States by-god Marine Corps!"
<<<<<<<CRASHHHHHHH!>>>>>>>>>>
WareWolf bows deeply to the assembled Marine and ex-Marine Patrons.
Arigato Gozemashita.
Dusty
Bill Gawne
Dusty:
> I reflected at the time that all of those place names reflected places
>where Marines got killed in absolutely horrifying numbers. And thinking,
>"What a bunch of death-worshiping psychopaths these guys are!"
The Marine at the end of the bar chokes on his coffee. Laughing.
> Later, I had cause to amend this to "Well, I'm just glad the crazy
>sumbitches are on OUR side!"
More amused chuckling. "I like that sentiment Dusty."
> Well, time and further study have granted me some slightly greater
>wisdom and perspective, to the point where I can now say:
>
> To America's Samurai...the United States by-god Marine Corps!"
>
> <<<<<<<CRASHHHHHHH!>>>>>>>>>>
>
>WareWolf bows deeply to the assembled Marine and ex-Marine Patrons.
>
> Arigato Gozemashita.
"Do Itashi Mashita"
(Bill looks around for Noel, sure of his pronunciation but very unsure
of representing the words in written text.)
Bill Gawne
Dusty, earlier:
> To America's Samurai...the United States by-god Marine Corps!"
The Marine at the end of the bar has been thinking about this, and
wanders back over to the warewolf.
"Y'know, Dusty old dog... I just can't quite agree with the analogy
of samurai. Sure, I appreciate that you meant it as a compliment, but
we're not feudal retainers. Nor are we a separate warrior class, though
I regret to say that some Marines seem to be contemptuous of the society
we defend."
"And we certainly don't have anything comparable to the fabled code of
Bushido - which I realize might be a load of crap made up later."
"Nor are we death-oriented. The life's goal of a samurai was to die
in the service of his feudal lord. Marines would, by and large, rather
survive combat."
"If we're going to try an analogy with ancient warrior bands, I'd
think something like Finn MacCool's Fian. But the US Marines are
really something fairly new on the world stage. We're a combination
of the elite guard unit (such as the Praetorian Guard) and colonial
infantry (like the French Foreign Legion) placed into a naval
context. It's really something that could only have sprung from
American society."
[cc: Dusty]
--
Bill Gawne
Lee S. Billings wrote:
[A lot, some of which has been answered in e-mail.]
> I have learned from long and bitter experience to *mourn* when a friend
> joins the military; because even if it doesn't kill him, even if it
> doesn't steal the best of his existence, *even if he gets out*, the
> person who comes out is not the person who was my friend any more.
So how is this different from somebody going to college? Or just living
for ten years doing whatever? People grow and change.
The young man I was at 18 before I joined the Corps is still here,
somewhere within the abstraction I call 'self'. Of course I have
grown in the interim, but that's been growth - not some kind of
bizarre mutation. I didn't leave my soul at the main gate of
Parris Island.
Sure military service is a forging, annealing kind of process.
But so is so much of life. I don't think it's anywhere near as
change inducing as a season spent fishing the Grand Banks, for
instance.
> I can't stand watching you pat Laura on the head like that! "Poor
> little girl, you should talk to *my* daughters and find out how a
> Marine's daughter is supposed to feel..." Don't you think she's been
> hearing that kind of crap all her life?
Laura, if that's how you interpreted what I posted, then I heartily
apologise. What I meant to say is simply that I don't think my
daughters fear me. I think I know other Marine dependent children
who don't fear their parents too.
I have no desire at all to try to tell anybody how they *ought* to feel.
BetNoir
Lee S. Billings wrote:
> I have learned from long and bitter experience to *mourn* when a friend
> joins the military; because even if it doesn't kill him, even if it
> doesn't steal the best of his existence, *even if he gets out*, the
> person who comes out is not the person who was my friend any more.
...frown....
This sounds nothing so much like you are trying to force other people's
lives and experiences to fit your worldview. So you don't much care for
the military...fine, I don't much care for Brussels sprouts. But just
because I don't like Brussels sprouts does not mean there is something
irretrievably wrong about those who do.
So why is it so HARD for you to understand that not everybody fits your
worldview of how military service somehow 'breaks' a person? Does The
Marine look broken to you? Does Sailor Jim? Merritt Stone? Dr.Bill?
With one exception, I would hazard a guess they are not 'broken' by
military service. And the only reason Dr.Bill is an exception is
because I can state with certainty that it did NOT break him because I
have known him personally for going on 10 years now.
Military service breaks some people, to be certain. But it does not
break EVERYONE. Such generalizations do a disservice to those who chose
military service.
At a more basic level....what it sounds as though you are saying is that
if your friends somehow make a lifechoice you disagree with, they can no
longer be your friends. Why should that matter? If a friend told you
he was gay, would it somehow mean that he could no longer be your friend
because he made a decision you disagreed with? So why should it be any
different for those who chose military service?
--
BetN -- NEVER parry with your head
'It's just the night in my veins...' -- C. Hynde
'Everybody wants to be closer to free...' -- S. BoDean
Gian-Paolo D Musumeci
stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) writes:
> In other words: yes, any job can be dangerous. But some are dangerous
> by *intention*. Occupational accidents are just that, accidents; people
> who go into the military *knowingly* accept a much higher than average
> risk of being killed or worse.
Gian-Paolo looks up from his small, dark corner heaped high with papers.
"On the other hand, the military _does_ teach you how to avoid getting
shot. Ask anyone who's ever crawled under concertina wire with
machinegun rounds zipping over the wire.... It's sort of the same
principle as on-the-job safety training, except that the risks are
different."
> I have learned from long and bitter experience to *mourn* when a friend
> joins the military; because even if it doesn't kill him, even if it
> doesn't steal the best of his existence, *even if he gets out*, the
> person who comes out is not the person who was my friend any more.
"I will briefly mention that some of my fellow cadets whom I respect the
MOST are females (sorry, can't help it). I am, however, curious as to
why you think the military changes people so that they aren't your
friends anymore. I will freely admit that military service does tend to
influence a person, through things as little as new vocabulary (honest,
the word "Hooah!" wasn't even IN my vocabulary a few months ago) to
things as big as an understanding of what 'discipline' really means. But
why does that change them from being your friend?"
> I've never said this here before, because it never seemed to be
> necessary. It was my personal opinion, nothing more. But <angry tears>
> I can't stand watching you pat Laura on the head like that! "Poor
> little girl, you should talk to *my* daughters and find out how a
> Marine's daughter is supposed to feel..." Don't you think she's been
> hearing that kind of crap all her life?
I don't think that's what he was trying to say...in fact, having not
spoken to his daughters, I'd imagine they'd be pretty scared for their
father too.
gdm
--
------
Gian-Paolo D Musumeci <g...@kestrel.scs.uiuc.edu>
Jim M. Pierce
Brice D. Fleckenstein wrote:
[] Some decade I'll figure out how the French suckered us into fighting
[] round 2 of the Vietnam Revolutionary War - we TOLD them to let Vietnam
[] go independent after WW II, and likely things would have gone a LOT
[] better in that part of the world had they listened.
I thought we were there because South Viet Nam [ yes I know about
the rest of it, I'm talking public reasons.] was a member of SEATO.
As a member of the South East Asia Treaty Organization, South Viet
Nam asked the United States, another member, for help. Thats why the
advisors were there.
I'm sure some of the private reasons we were there was to protect
American business investments.
DJ.
--
Dreamy Jim aka Jim Pierce Bach. of Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
Video: Grace Jones 'Slave to the Rhythm'
Lee S. Billings
In article <64gff7$ekh$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, g...@kestrel.scs.uiuc.edu
says...
>"I will briefly mention that some of my fellow cadets whom I respect
the
>MOST are females (sorry, can't help it). I am, however, curious as to
>why you think the military changes people so that they aren't your
>friends anymore. I will freely admit that military service does tend
to
>influence a person, through things as little as new vocabulary
(honest,
>the word "Hooah!" wasn't even IN my vocabulary a few months ago) to
>things as big as an understanding of what 'discipline' really means.
But
>why does that change them from being your friend?"
It happens, by chance, that none of the people I've known who went
military were female. But I doubt it would change things...
As to why they come out not being my friend any more, it's because
they've changed. They don't *want* to be my friend any more; we no
longer have the similar interests, priorities, and viewpoints that we
had before, and it doesn't take too long for the friendship to crumble.
They go their way, I go mine, and I never see them again...
Celine
Lee S. Billings
In article <346BCA...@pha.jhu.edu>, ga...@pha.jhu.edu says...
>
>Lee S. Billings wrote:
>> I can't stand watching you pat Laura on the head like that! "Poor
>> little girl, you should talk to *my* daughters and find out how a
>> Marine's daughter is supposed to feel..." Don't you think she's been
>> hearing that kind of crap all her life?
>
>Laura, if that's how you interpreted what I posted, then I heartily
>apologise. What I meant to say is simply that I don't think my
>daughters fear me. I think I know other Marine dependent children
>who don't fear their parents too.
>
>I have no desire at all to try to tell anybody how they *ought* to
feel.
I'm going to handle the rest of this privately -- *after* a good
night's sleep and my weekend out of town -- but I do want to point out
one thing which you appear to have misread from Laura's original post.
She didn't say she was afraid *of* her father, she said she was afraid
*for* him. It makes a largish difference...
All else can wait until I've had time to cool off.
Celine
Bill Gawne
Celine:
>one thing which you appear to have misread from Laura's original post.
>She didn't say she was afraid *of* her father, she said she was afraid
>*for* him. It makes a largish difference...
Bill looks back at Dark Laura's original post.
Yes, I misread that, and it does make quite a difference.
Unfortunately, it does still say "Damn you all" which I have
to admit struck me as just a little bit prejudiced. But thanks
for drawing my attention to my error.
Bill Gawne
[posted & e-mailed]
[I received this in e-mail, but a check of the headers appears
to show it was a post cc'd to me. It hasn't shown up on my
news server as of this writing. -WCG]
Me, earlier, talking about the USMC:
> > It's really something that could only have sprung from
> > American society."
>
> I hate to disagree, but the early Marine Corp traditions and methods
> were directly adopted from British Marines.
1997? The modern USMC is vastly larger and is capable of performing
a much wider spectrum of missions than the Royal Marines.
> Y'all have since reshaped those into something uniquely American,
> but some of the roots are still there and recognisable.
survive too, in close order drill. Military organizations build on
the successes of prior examples.
> Examples? The cutlass (only for cerimonial use now, granted),
My NCO sword is a USMC variant of the Model 1850 cavalry saber.
It's clearly not a cutlass, as it has neither the closed guard
of a cutlass nor the heavy bone chopping blade. Nor is it short
enough to meet the usual definition.
Marine officers carry a 'mameluke' sword, styled on the sword presented
by the Dey of Tripoli to Marine Lieutenant Presley Neville O'Bannon
in 1804 after O'Bannon's Marines recaptured Tripoli and returned control
to the Dey. The original presentation sword is in the Marine Corps
Museum in Washington DC.
The officer's sword is even less like a cutlass, as it does not
have a guard around the hand at all.
> bright dress uniforms AND to some degree the color of those uniforms,
Huh? Royal Marines wear red. Our dress uniform is blue, except for
the Marine Corps band. As for 'bright', I daresay the Marine Corps
dress uniform has less in the way of briad and ornamentation on it than
the US Army dress blue uniform.
Our service dress uniform is a bit more like that of the Royal Marines,
being a muted forest green and carrying all black service insignia.
But still, there are clear differences.
> much of the rank system...
Oh come on. Our rank system has far more in common with the US Army
than with the Royal Marines. The USMC unique rank of Lance Corporal
comes from a time when Marine cavalry units rode with Army cavalry
and the Marines fell into the chain of command below the Army NCO's.
(The lance ranks were borrowed from Napoleon's army, BTW, where the
lancers were always junior to the curriassiers. So that is something
we have from the French, not the British. Lance Corporal was pulled
out and dusted off when Marines had to come into compliance with the
standard rank system in accordance with the National Security Act
of 1947.)
The USMC unique rank of Gunnery Sergeant was invented by the USMC in
the late 1880's. At the time it was the seniormost rank an enlisted
Marine could hold. Master Gunnery Sergeant is a 20th century development,
again unique to the USMC.
On the Royal Marines' side, they have the rank of Colour Sergeant,
approximately like our Gunnery Sergeant - but a rank never seen in
the context of the USMC.
The remainder of Marine Corps ranks are like those of the Army.
Private, Private First Class, Corporal, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant,
Master Sergeant, 1st Sergeant, and Sergeant Major are common to
both branches of service.
--
Ron Swartzendruber
In article <346A56...@pha.jhu.edu>, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> was heard to say:
>Ron Swartzendruber aka Falconer:
>> "I thought long and hard about what I am about to say. I know I am
>> treading on sensitive ground, especially after the recent flamewar and
>> because Veterans' Day is tomorrow, but I really feel that I need to
>> say this."
>
>Bill nods, stepping away from the chalkline and listening.
>
>(Through the USENET discontunity it's now the day _after_ Veterans' Day,
>but this discussion can go on for a while I imagine.)
(And through me being crazy busy with work, it's now the evening of
the fourteenth.)
>
>> [SNIP: I was brought up believing that the military is evil, but have
>> since realized that most people in the military are good folks;
>> however I still can't wholeheartedly support the military]
>
>"That's OK Ron," Bill interjects, "I'd be lying to say that too. There's
>a lot of policy in the US Department of Defense I disagree with."
>
>> And I have a lot of issues with our society, and government,
>> and those who cynically manipulate us to get money and power (I live
>> in the USA, in case it's not obvious.) And I still believe that
>> killing is wrong, although, tragically, wrong things are sometimes
>> necessary in this messed-up world we live in."
>
>"And... sometimes you realize that the difference is not between right
>and wrong, but between possibilities. When the possibility you prefer
>requires violent conflict, then it follows that violent conflict occurs."
"That is an issue that I struggle with a lot. From my religious
upbringing I have a residual tendency to see the world in back and
white, but it obviously isn't that simple, as you said, Bill."
"But it seems to me that the whole world is in a mess right now and
all my experience and reading and talking with others has led me to
the belief that violent conflict only makes things worse in the long
term. However, the problem is that there has been so much violence in
the past, starting way back when it was necessary for survival and the
consequences weren't so drastic, that we've become stuck in a
situation where violence will continue (for example, the centuries-old
hatreds in the Balkan and Middle East regions) even when the
consequences are too drastic for the world to support."
"There seems to be a strong tradition throughout history of one
society conquering as much of the world as it can, usually through
violence, and then failing and falling, again usually by violence (as
well as internal decay, but that's beside my point). Its former area
of control is usually left devastated, and then somebody else picks up
the pieces and starts all over again. (A good example of this is the
Roman Empire.) But now that we've reached a level of technology where
the consequences of our wars threaten the survival of our entire
species, we must somehow break free of this cycle. I see a definite
right and wrong here, though it still is far from simple."
"I'm reminded of the story of the travelers in the jungle who fell
into a snakepit. Nine of them started beating back the snakes with all
their might, just barely managing to keep them at bay. The tenth guy
just stood there, looking up, and the others yelled at him to come
help them fight the snakes. But he just kept looking up and said, 'You
fight the snakes. I'm looking for a way for us all to get out of the
pit'."
"Now my point here is that all these people were in this together.
The one guy needed the other nine to keep the snakes back, but they
needed him just as much. That's the situation I see us all in, in
today's world."
Falconer grins lopsidedly. "And don't get me wrong; I'm not
claiming to be that one guy. The story's too simple; we all need to
spend at least some time fighting the snakes, and we all can help
look for ways out of the pit."
"But let me run with my metaphor a bit further. As I see it, the
purpose of organizations like the Marine Corps is to fight snakes (at
least ideally). It's an absolutely necessary job, and often a dirty
one and always hard. And rendered much more complicated by the twin
facts that 1) nobody can tell with much certainty exactly what or who
the snakes are, let alone agree with others who are also trying to
figure it out, and 2) some of the snakes are in positions of power in
our society where they can use the military for their own snakish ends
instead of for its true and honorable task."
Falconer looks down and realizes he's fully on the soapbox. He
gives a tired smile and a little shrug. "I'm tired from my crazy
week and I'm being a lot more long-winded than I meant to be. I hope
you'll bear with me a bit more, though. What I'm trying to say is that
I think there is right and wrong, even though it's complicated; and
that it should always be taken into account. To return to what you
were saying, Bill, I agree that when you prefer a possibility that can
only be accomplished by violence, violence will indeed occur; but I
believe that one's preferences should be judged in the light of right
and wrong, as much as possible. And by 'right' I mean anything that
will either keep the snakes back or help get us out of the pit;
'wrong' is anything that helps the snakes."
"But since it's so hard to know for sure, maybe my argument breaks
down here. I don't know; I'm only twenty-six, I don't have all the
answers yet. I'm stuck in the same snakepit as the rest of us." And he
grins wryly. "I welcome any further argument or comments, by email or
here in the group."
And he gets down off the soapbox and gives it a resounding kick
back into the corner. Stifling a tired yawn, he takes a seat near the
marine at the end of the bar.
>> [SNIP: more of my original post, and Bill's welcome comments]
>
>"It's OK Ron. I didn't stand out there in the rain at night with a
>rifle just for people who might happen to agree with me. Y'know?"
"Thanks."
>"I think what I hear you saying is that you recognize the need for
>vigilance, but question the choices made in the past for where to
>use force. No problem with that. Heck, *I* question those choices
>too. Lots of them."
"Yeah. I think we're really in agreement about most of this, and I
probably didn't need to get long-winded about it. The only thing I
want to make clear here is that I believe in vigilance in defense of
the whole world and not just one country. That's probably not too far
from what you'd say, unless I miss my guess."
>> [SNIP: the end of my original post, my toast, and Bill's agreement]
>> "Peace."
>
>"Peace Ron. *WITH* freedom."
"I agree. I don't believe there can be true peace without freedom
and justice for all."
>> Disclaimer: All right, folks, I know I'm probably about to be
>> flamed to death on this one.
>
>"Nah. I've been waiting two days for this to show up, and reading
>lots of followups to it. Nobody's going to flame you Ron. Not for
>this."
"Thanks. Essentially all the many folks who responded to my post
agreed, and wondered just why I thought I was going to be flamed. And
that made me realize... I still harbor some unconscious prejudice, and
fear that no matter how reasonable people may seem, they'll fly off
the handle when I stand up for beliefs that are different from theirs.
Now that I see that for what it is, it looks downright silly. So,
thanks, all of you, and especially to Bill and the other military and
ex-military folks who responded."
>
>Bill looks around. "Somebody want to prove me wrong?" he asks with
>a cold note in his voice.
Falconer chuckles. "Nobody even tried. I got not a single little
flame. I thought sure that there'd be at least one lurker who couldn't
deal with what I had to say, but I guess the magic of Callahan's Place
is alive and well."
>> [ SNIP: the rest of my disclaimer, and part of Bill's final comments ]
> I can't think of
>many Marines I've known who wouldn't support your right to express the
>opinions you've offered."
"Thanks. I'm used to getting dirty looks, at least, whenever I
openly say anything against the government. It's really refreshing to
have my biases overturned this way. Thanks for talking. Anyway, I
really need to get some sleep now, maybe we can continue this
conversation later."
"'Night, all."
----Falconer
Please email replies as well as posting; my newsfeed is really spotty!
Ron Swartzendruber Eclectic, Nonconformist, Believer in People.
Ro...@Reliacom.SPAMSHIELDcom (Note: Remove SPAMSHIELD to email me!)
Comments and discussion welcomed; irrelevant flames politely ignored.
randome
Celine wrote:
> I have learned from long and bitter experience to *mourn* when a friend
> joins the military; because even if it doesn't kill him, even if it
> doesn't steal the best of his existence, *even if he gets out*, the
> person who comes out is not the person who was my friend any more.
Gee, Celine, I honestly don't believe it's that bad. My father was
in the US Army for 35 years, fought in three wars, and was a kind,
loving, witty and intelligent man, and a wonderful dad. Yes, military
training does change a youngster, and war changes him even more, but
even though dad spent a large portion of the years 1942-1962 in war
zones, it didn't change him for the worse. I don't think he was all
that unusual, either.
As for mourning in advance, my family should have mourned for me
when I drove a cab. Of slightly over a hundred cabbies in Colorado
Springs in 1989, four were murdered on the job. We would have been
safer in the army- at least there the enemy is a little better defined.
You must have had some very painful experiences- but for many
of us, it does not apply. I'm sorry for your pain and grief.
--
Randome
My dad was my role model- and I like to think I'm a nice guy.
barbara trumpinski
eleri:
>"To those people who went at the whims of a government, who sometimes
>doesn't know what it's doing, to those people who didn't come back,
>and to those people who will go again when called. I can only honour
>your fortitude."
>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CRASH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
kitten raises her glass...."to my son, who is in the 101st airborne
and who has been on alert for weeks now. i don't WANT him to go to
the middle east. but i am damned proud of him, no matter what.
--
kit...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barbara trumpinski
/\ /\ smotu "my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?"
{=.=} 'the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage
~ to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference'
barbara trumpinski
?
>>because he made a decision you disagreed with? So why should it be
>any
>>different for those who chose military service?
celine:
>No... it's not like that at all. It's more like, I'm still *expecting*
>to be friends with them, and they walk away. Like I'm no longer part of
>*their* world. It's painful, and bewildering, and nothing I can do
>changes it. So I just accept it and go on.
"but lee," kitten says, "don't they walk away BECAUSE you can't except
the changes in them and because you are not willing to find a common
ground of friendship, rather than because the military has changed
them.
you expect to be friends with the old them, but they AREN'T the old
them. maybe you should be more adaptable."
Lee S. Billings
In article <64s35q$mb8$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, kit...@staff.uiuc.edu
says...
>
>?
>>>because he made a decision you disagreed with? So why should it be
>>any
>>>different for those who chose military service?
>
>celine:
>>No... it's not like that at all. It's more like, I'm still
*expecting*
>>to be friends with them, and they walk away. Like I'm no longer part
of
>>*their* world. It's painful, and bewildering, and nothing I can do
>>changes it. So I just accept it and go on.
>
>"but lee," kitten says, "don't they walk away BECAUSE you can't except
>the changes in them and because you are not willing to find a common
>ground of friendship, rather than because the military has changed
>them.
>
>you expect to be friends with the old them, but they AREN'T the old
>them. maybe you should be more adaptable."
I think a more accurate way of putting it is that they don't want to be
friends with the old me. If that's my fault, well, maybe I should just
go jump off the nearest cliff.
Celine (tired of being blamed for other people's behavior!)
KertRats
>
>I think a more accurate way of putting it is that they don't want to be
>friends with the old me. If that's my fault, well, maybe I should just
>go jump off the nearest cliff.
>
>Celine (tired of being blamed for other people's behavior!)
>
>
>
Don't Jump! Life is Still Good! (Not that I really thought you
would - you've expressed too much intelligence for that!)
Celine - hang on to this thought: the only people who never
change are dead - and there's some debate over that! I have
experienced what you have over the years - even with family.
It hurts.
Nobody is "...to blame...."; it's just part of life. I seem to recall
this discussion having to do with military service, but it could
just as easily relate to friends who move away to go to school
for 2-4 years, or someone who moves with their family to
another country for an extended period of time.
It's more noticable when the separation is in the late teens and
early twenties, because we all do "A Lot Of Growing Up" in
that time - and growing mean change.
They've changed - you've changed - I've changed - and
while that doesn't make the pain of losing a friend any easier
to experience, hopefully it will make it a little easier to endure!
Hang in there, Chief! And let me get your next BOC....
======================== K ==========================
KertRats - who's had to reseach and examine his own beliefs
more since he's come to Callahans than he has in the last
10 years .... and glad of it. THANX, y'all!
Bill Gawne
[posted & e-mailed]
kitten:
> >you expect to be friends with the old them, but they AREN'T the old
> >them. maybe you should be more adaptable."
Celine:
> I think a more accurate way of putting it is that they don't want to be
> friends with the old me. If that's my fault, well, maybe I should just
> go jump off the nearest cliff.
>
> Celine (tired of being blamed for other people's behavior!)
The Marine at the end of the bar winces a bit, and walks over to
Celine.
"Y'know... I never knew you before I was a Marine... but you do seem
to be worth knowing. I think I'd be pretty upset if you went and
jumped off a cliff.
"I think there's some merit in what kitten said, though maybe she could
have said it better. I don't know. But rather than beat a tired horse
right now, I'd rather offer you a hug, and a drink, and some time down
in the lounge swapping songs."
"I hear you're pretty good."
Lee S. Billings
In article <347324...@pha.jhu.edu>, ga...@pha.jhu.edu says...
>"Y'know... I never knew you before I was a Marine... but you do seem
>to be worth knowing. I think I'd be pretty upset if you went and
>jumped off a cliff.
>
>"I think there's some merit in what kitten said, though maybe she
could
>have said it better. I don't know. But rather than beat a tired
horse
>right now, I'd rather offer you a hug, and a drink, and some time down
>in the lounge swapping songs."
>
>"I hear you're pretty good."
Why, thank you, kind sir! Allow me to cross threads here by performing
my one (well, so far!) Pegasus-nominated song, which was inspired by
_Starship Troopers_:
THE BALLAD OF FLEET SERGEANT HO
When I was a young man, I dreamed of the stars and I wanted to join in
the Navy.
I'd see Jupiter, Venus and Titan and Mars, and an out-system post would
be gravy.
Well, my Pa said, "Okay - but let's hope there's no war";
My Ma was real proud; but my sister, she swore.
She said, "You'd best be careful what you're wishing for,
'Cause you never know when you might get it."
So I went to the Federal Building,
And the man at the desk had no arms;
But my dreams were too strong to let me pause for long -
I went in despite his alarms.
Well, I didn't make Navy, my grades were too low, and I thought I'd end
up washing dishes.
But they put me in Infantry (why, I don't know), and so much for my
star-going wishes.
Then just as I left Basic, the Bugs hit our line,
And the next seven years were a terrible time;
I made corporal, then sergeant, then the unit was mine -
For promotions come quickly in wartime.
And the M.I. was all of my family,
And the war was all of my life;
As we dropped from the sky and I watched my men die,
I prayed for an end to the strife.
Now, the government says it's not really a war, but that just means
they haven't declared us.
We fought "police actions" on planets galore, and the Bugs never let up
or spared us.
Then I got caught by a new kind of gun,
And the last thing I thought was, "The bastards - they've won.
My story is over, my dreams are all done"...
Until I woke up three days later.
And they're sending me back home to Terra;
Most of my men bought the farm.
The last four or five got me out alive,
But minus both legs and one arm.
Well, the hospital ship wasn't too bad, I guess, if I had to go
somewhere for healing.
After that I'd be home, but by then I confess that it wasn't too happy
a feeling.
So now I can vote, and I'll draw pension pay,
And that's more than most of my buddies can say,
And, oh yes - I got to the stars, by the way,
But was the dream really worth what it cost me?
'Cause there's not much use for a cripple,
And it looks like my sister was right.
But I've no time for tears; I've been M.I. for years,
And I won't give in without a fight.
So when my stumps healed up, I went to the brass and I said, "I'm not
ready for pasture.
The Doc says it's high time I got off my ass - if you don't believe me,
then just ask her.".
And they said there's one valuable thing I could do,
And they gave me an arm and two legs just like new -
But when I'm on duty, I'm talking to YOU,
And I'm not wearing any prosthetics.
For there's just no end to this damn war,
No matter how many get hurt.
If you can't bear to see you might end up like me,
You should go home and grub in the dirt!
Words Copyright by Lee Billings
Music: "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" by Eric Bogle
All Rights Reserved
(Based on _Starship Troopers_ by Robert A. Heinlein)
Celine
Lee S. Billings
In article <19971119150...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
kert...@aol.com says...
>
>>
>>I think a more accurate way of putting it is that they don't want to
be
>>friends with the old me. If that's my fault, well, maybe I should
just
>>go jump off the nearest cliff.
>>
>>Celine (tired of being blamed for other people's behavior!)
>>
>>
>>
>
>would - you've expressed too much intelligence for that!)
I assure you, that was mere hyperbole, born out of severe annoyance at
being told that I must somehow be making people do this to me. There
have been times in the past when you might have had cause to worry, but
not now.
Celine
WareWolf96
>
>Dusty, earlier:
>> To America's Samurai...the United States by-god Marine Corps!"
>
>The Marine at the end of the bar has been thinking about this, and
>wanders back over to the warewolf.
>
>"Y'know, Dusty old dog... I just can't quite agree with the analogy
>of samurai. Sure, I appreciate that you meant it as a compliment, but
>we're not feudal retainers. Nor are we a separate warrior class, though
>I regret to say that some Marines seem to be contemptuous of the society
>we defend."
Well, jeez, Bill, you explore any metaphor too deeply, you probably hit the
wall. See. for example, your Praetorian Gurad/Fian comparison below. The
Praetorian Guard, IIRC, ended up being way too involved in politics, even
kingmakers on occasion, whereas the Fian were sworn to unswerving loyalty to a
single leader...both concepts that would horrify a modern Marine, Ollie North
notwithstanding.
>"And we certainly don't have anything comparable to the fabled code of
>Bushido - which I realize might be a load of crap made up later."
>
>"Nor are we death-oriented. The life's goal of a samurai was to die
>in the service of his feudal lord. Marines would, by and large, rather
>survive combat."
Truth be told, the samurai would rather live than die, if only to continue
serving his lord. What I was getting at was a willingness to die,if that's what
it took. Maybe the samurai were the wrong metaphor. How do you feel about the
Dorsai?
>
>"If we're going to try an analogy with ancient warrior bands, I'd
>think something like Finn MacCool's Fian. But the US Marines are
>really something fairly new on the world stage. We're a combination
>of the elite guard unit (such as the Praetorian Guard) and colonial
>infantry (like the French Foreign Legion) placed into a naval
>context. It's really something that could only have sprung from
>American society."
The Royal Marines might dispute you on that. If so, I'll I hold your coat.
Dusty
posted and e-mailed, I hope