What you get when soft on nazis
Miguel O'Pastel
L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
Police have identified Furrow, right, as the shooting suspect
INTERACTIVE:
The hunt for the community center gunman
Gunfire shatters another U.S. community
RELATED VIDEO
CNN's Walter Rodgers has the Israeli reaction to the shooting at the Jewish
community center (August 11)
Real 28K 80K
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CNN's Anne McDermott reports on a disturbingly familiar event (August 10)
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28 K 80 K
RELATED AUDIO:
Holy Cross Medical Center describe the 5-year-old boy's injuries
219K/20 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
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MESSAGE BOARDS:
Mass shootings
BACKGROUND:
Buford Furrow:
• Full name: Buford O'Neal Furrow. Some accounts spell his middle name
Oneal; he's also known as Buford O. Furrow Jr. Some people call him Neal.
• Description: 37 years old; 5 feet, 9 inches tall; 185 pounds; brown,
balding hair.
• Background: Grew up in Lacey, Washington, a community in Thurston County,
60 miles south of Seattle; family lives in a mobile home on 5 to 7 acres of
property. Neighbors say Furrow had recently been living with his parents.
Shooting victims recovering
August 11, 1999
Web posted at: 2:19 p.m. EDT (1819 GMT)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
In this story:
Relationship with widow of hate group founder
In psychiatric hospital
Manhunt spreads
Condition of wounded
Washington state roots
Site of shooting to reopen
RELATED STORIES, SITES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
LOS ANGELES (CNN) -- Buford Furrow, the suspect police had sought in the
shooting at a Los Angeles-area Jewish community center, turned himself in to
authorities in Las Vegas on Wednesday, sources told CNN.
Senior FBI officials in Washington said Furrow was alone when he surrendered
at the FBI field office.
"It was just a walk-in," a senior official told CNN. "There were no
negotiations."
Authorities also said Furrow would be charged in the slaying of a postal
worker who was shot near the community center.
Five people were wounded at the community center. Afterward, information
surfaced linking Furrow to hate groups in the U.S. Northwest.
News reports said the Washington state native belonged to, or was once
associated with, the groups Aryan Nation, the Order and Christian Identity.
He is listed in a database maintained by the Southern Poverty Law Center of
people connected with radical groups, said Mark Potok, a researcher with the
center based in Montgomery, Alabama.
Potok said Furrow was a member of Aryan Nation in 1995, and said he has a
photo of Furrow in a Nazi uniform, taken that year at the white supremacist
group's compound in Hayden Lake, Idaho.
Relationship with widow of hate group founder
Meantime, newspapers in Washington state reported that Furrow once lived
with Debbie Mathews, widow of Robert J. Mathews, founder of the Order, a
neo-Nazi hate group. Furrow and Debbie Mathews reportedly met at an Aryan
Nation gathering.
The Seattle Times said that until about a year ago they lived with Mathews'
teen-age son in Metaline Falls, located in northwestern Washington near the
Idaho border.
"He was very much a racist," said a former Metaline Falls neighbor, an
unidentified woman quoted by the Seattle Times.
In yet another development, a van believed driven by Furrow contained a
book, "War Cycles, Peace Cycles," written by Richard Kelly Hoskins, who
Potok called "one of the principal ideologues of Christian Identity."
Christian Identity is a group with religious overtones that considers white
people superior to Jews and nonwhites.
"Hard-line Identity adherents believe that in order for Christ to return to
Earth, the globe must be swept clean of satanic forces -- meaning Jews,
homosexuals and a whole laundry list of other enemies," Potok said.
In psychiatric hospital
In November, according to the Seattle Times, Furrow tried to commit himself
to a psychiatric hospital in a Seattle suburb, but was reluctant to submit
to inpatient treatment and, at one point, pulled a knife on several
staffers.
Court records show Furrow was charged with felony assault on November 2,
1998, pleaded guilty to second-degree assault and was sentenced to five
months in the King County Jail.
Sources told CNN he was on probation at the time of Tuesday's attack.
Janet Tyrolt, one of Furrow's neighbors in Lacey, Washington, describes him
as a 'perfect gentleman'
111K/10 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
Manhunt spreads
Furrow, 37, is suspected of walking into the North Valley Jewish Community
Center and firing more than 70 bullets from what was believed to be a 9 mm
weapon before escaping.
When the hunt for the suspect spread from California to Washington, the Los
Angeles police chief said authorities were "looking wherever the leads will
take us."
"If it requires us to go nationally or internationally, we're certainly
capable of doing that," Chief Bernard Parks told CNN.
While authorities were investigating the possibility that Tuesday's
late-morning attack was a hate crime, Parks said authorities knew of no
"specific motive."
"The suspect did not make any comments before firing at the victims," he
said.
Condition of wounded
The wounded included three young boys attending day camp, a 16-year-old
counselor and a 68-year-old receptionist.
The most seriously injured was a 5-year-old boy, who was shot in the abdomen
and leg. He was in critical condition after six hours of surgery, and his
prognosis for recovery was considered fair.
The other two boys, ages 6 and 8, and the teen-age counselor were
hospitalized in stable condition. The receptionist, Isabelle Shalometh, went
home Tuesday night.
Washington state roots
Furrow grew up in Lacey, Washington, near the state capital of Olympia.
His family still lives there, and neighbors said Furrow had recently been
living with his parents.
FBI agents visited a Lacey, Washington, house believed to be the home of the
suspect's father
On Tuesday night, FBI agents visited the home and searched the area.
Agents also interviewed neighbors Janet and Tim Tyrolt. Mrs. Tyrolt told
reporters Furrow was " a perfect gentleman" she first met two or three
months ago.
As recently as 1994, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported, Furrow had
lived in Rosamond, California, a town about 40 miles from the scene of the
community center attack in Granada Hills.
The suburban San Fernando Valley community is about 30 miles northwest of
downtown Los Angeles.
Police said that after the shootings the gunman fled in a red van and,
minutes later, stole a green car near the Van Nuys airport.
Investigators followed his trail, from the shell casings that littered the
community center's lobby to the abandoned red- and-white van. In addition to
the Hoskins literature, it was filled with ammunition, bulletproof vests,
explosives and freeze-dried food.
The hunt next led police to a green Toyota Corolla that was believed to have
been stolen and then left in front of a hotel in Chatsworth, a few miles
from the community center. Police said they found weapons in the car.
Officers surrounded the hotel, but the search ended after four hours. "We
were so close but still he managed to get away," Cmdr. David Kalish said.
The abandoned van, which had a Washington state license plate, was purchased
Saturday in Tacoma, Washington, according to the used-vehicle dealer who
sold it. Kalish identified Furrow as the buyer.
Site of shooting to reopen
Officials at the North Valley Jewish Community Center told CNN the facility
would reopen as soon as police investigators allow it.
Meantime, a summer program for youngsters was to resume Wednesday at an
Episcopal church next door.
Correspondents Ann McDermott, Charles Feldman, Jim Hill, Siobhan Darrow and
Greg LaMotte contributed to this report
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
RELATED STORIES:
Suspect identified in California shootings, hunt intensifies
August 11, 1999
Gunman eludes police after shooting 5 at Jewish community center
August 10, 1999
3 shot dead in Alabama, suspect arrested
August 5, 1999
Suspect in Atlanta shooting spree dead
July 29, 1999
Midwest shooting spree ends with apparent suicide of suspect
July 5, 1999
4 shot at Georgia high school
May 20, 1999
Gunmen open fire at Colorado school; some students trapped
April 20, 1999
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
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Los Angeles City Fire Department
Temple Beth Torah of Granada Hills
Providence Holy Cross Medical Center
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Steve Koterski
<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
[...]
And so what preventative measures would you like to have implemented (as
opposed to being soft)? Your title seems to imply you would prefer
something be done *before* such a person commits a crime.
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Steve Koterski "The difference between genius and stupidity is that
Felton, CA genius has its limits." -- Unknown
Sac Of Tomatoes
9 year olds. Not only is your Nazi a psychotic, but he is
a psychotic who TRIED to commit himself to a mental
institution and even told a Washington county sheriff
deputy he felt like he would "just lose it" and kill
people at a local mall. As is always the case, the mental
health system of this country and the judicial system (law
enforcement included) failed us once again without regard
to race, creed, color, religion, or even political ideology.
For once Miguel, just try to write your own words instead
of plagiarizing the web, or worse, quoting CNN, and then
adding some half-assed subject line header that makes no
sense to anyone other than you.
dot...@dot.net
> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:49:34 GMT, Sac Of Tomatoes
> <wear_ov...@hotmail.com>'s laid this one on us:
>
> >Miguel, you are a moron... even among your peer group of
> >9 year olds. Not only is your Nazi a psychotic, but he is
> >a psychotic who TRIED to commit himself to a mental
> >institution and even told a Washington county sheriff
> >deputy he felt like he would "just lose it" and kill
> >people at a local mall. As is always the case, the mental
> >health system of this country and the judicial system (law
> >enforcement included) failed us once again without regard
> >to race, creed, color, religion, or even political ideology.
>
> Although he has expressed a desire for mental health treatment, he was
> also intimately involved in the hate organizations. Most people that
> seek mental health treatment are not involved in those organizations
> and most people that seek mental health treatment never do anything
> like this.
>
> I wonder if he used the mental health system in advance, so that he
> could get one of them thar Jew-lawyers (TM) to assign him an insanity
> plea. He's probably one of those assholes who's going to represent
> himself in court though...
Nice call! Seems you too have noticed that the weave on this Sac is so
lose that only the tomatoes fail to pass through. As usual, the inability
to grasp the pertinent facts is compounded with his self absorption. This
my friend, is the true legacy of the '60's - the spawn of the me-me-me
generation is just more me-me-me.
>
>
> o | | o
> _ _ _ | | _ _ _ _
> / |/ |/ | | |/_) |/ | / |/ |/ |
> | | |_/ |_/ | \_/ |__/ |/ | | |_/ ©
> /|
> \|
> Today or Tomorrow??TOMATO/TOMOTTO!!
Miguel O'Pastel
start. If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
to do it.
M
Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b6e9b3...@news.gte.net>...
|On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:22 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|
|>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
|
Miguel O'Pastel
could not have been committed for observation under California law.
M
PS Kiss my ass
Sac Of Tomatoes wrote in message <37B28AD4...@hotmail.com>...
Sac Of Tomatoes
>
> Nice call! Seems you too have noticed that the weave on this Sac is so
> lose that only the tomatoes fail to pass through. As usual, the inability
> to grasp the pertinent facts is compounded with his self absorption. This
> my friend, is the true legacy of the '60's - the spawn of the me-me-me
> generation is just more me-me-me.
>
A whole paragraph dedicated to flaming me-me-me?! THANK YOU!
Who ever you-you-you are.
Sac Of Tomatoes
>
> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:16:17 -0700, dot...@dot.net's laid this one
> on us:
> >Nice call!
>
> I'm not claiming to know that was the case. I can't get inside of his
> head. I'm just speculating.
I didn't even know you disagreed with me... weird. Basically, I
thought you said pretty much what I said which was that it
really doesn't matter if the guy thought he was Hitler or the
Easter Bunny... crazy is crazy. Like whiskey, crazy and guns
don't mix. I suppose Miguel would have been much happier if
the gunman shot those kids and that woman in the name of
world peace or US borders abolition.
BTW, about getting into my head... hold off a bit, I'm still
redecorating.
Sac Of Tomatoes
>
> They are mostly psychotics. That is what make them dangerous. This guy
> could not have been committed for observation under California law.
> M
No. 1... WHO CARES IF HE COULD OR COULDN'T BE COMMITTED IN
CALIFORNIA!!! Look you moron, try to stay with me here...
the guy is from Washington and tried to commit himself in
WASHINGTON. Washington is a STATE some 160 miles north of the
California border. California does not over see Washington's
mental health laws. You savvy me speak chief?
No. 2... what you know about California law wouldn't
fill a fanny pack on a flea's ass.
No. 3... you are still a moron.
No. 4... anyone in California can be committed, even
against their will, to a mental institution if a person
acts or plans to harm him/herself or others. If you
know different, cite the law or case law. Better yet
Zorro, why don't you call the cops and tell them your
heavily armed, a neo-nazi, and you feel like your
"losing it" because you want to randomly kill people
at a local mall... then you can tell us all how
California law works.
> PS Kiss my ass
No. 5... you are still a moron who will have to find
some other dude to be affectionate with your ass. Be
creative.
Sac Of Tomatoes
>
> Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
> start.
Gee, good tinking Miguel. Enforcing laws... you might be on to
something revolutionary there Santa Anna. Kinda like when
Bufford's hate group 'The Order' was broken up by sending most of it's
members to prison and the death of it's leader due to a shoot out with
Federal Agents. Something like that huh? Never mind that Bufford
tried to get mental health treatment and was given the bums rush
because he threaten a mental hospital staff member with a knife
and was considered too violent for a rubber sweater but docile
enough to be released to the streets... and to care for all those
lonely guns in his possession. Way to go Miguel... you seem to
have your eye on the ball with this syndicate and RICO thing.
> If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
> to do it.
> M
Don't hold your breath moron. The 'citizens' are already
too busy fighting to keep their guns because our criminal
justice system has about as much a grasp on reality as you
do. One fire at a time.
>
> Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b6e9b3...@news.gte.net>...
> |On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:22 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
> |<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
> |
> |>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
> |
dot...@dot.net
> Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
> >
> > Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
> > start.
>
> Gee, good tinking Miguel. Enforcing laws... you might be on to
> something revolutionary there Santa Anna. Kinda like when
> Bufford's hate group 'The Order' was broken up by sending most of it's
> members to prison and the death of it's leader due to a shoot out with
> Federal Agents. Something like that huh? Never mind that Bufford
> tried to get mental health treatment and was given the bums rush
> because he threaten a mental hospital staff member with a knife
> and was considered too violent for a rubber sweater but docile
> enough to be released to the streets...
You keep offering this incorrect version of the events. Do you do it on
purpose? Or are you just too lazy to read the news accounts and get it correct?
Maybe it just serves your purposes (whatever they may be) to push this
distortion. Get it straight. Buford was in a mental hospital for a month before
he was released. When he went to another clinic to ask to be readmitted, he
assaulted a member of the intake staff while they were processing him. The
police were called and he was locked up for that assault. He wasn't given the
"bums rush" as you put it. He was arrested. Since his was a voluntary
admission, the process was stopped at that point. Would you have it otherwise?
You seem to be very emotional about gun control issues, and their effect on
segments of the population, yet you spoof the fact that this man, with a history
of mental problems, assault charges, and other anti social behavior, had a large
cache of weapons at his home. He has them, and was able to use them in the
fashion that he did - shooting children - because advocates like you minimize
every legitimate effort at gun control. Then you say, "enforce the existing
laws" but the children are already dead. Too late.And you seem to want more
vigorous efforts to "hospitalize" or in other ways, get people with mental
problems off of the streets. But you apparently fail to see how much more
draconian these laws, and their enforcement, might be to your whimpering desire
to be free of the government. A good MSW could parse your posts sufficiently to
warrant a ninety day observation period.
> and to care for all those
> lonely guns in his possession. Way to go Miguel... you seem to
> have your eye on the ball with this syndicate and RICO thing.
>
> > If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
> > to do it.
> > M
>
> Don't hold your breath moron. The 'citizens' are already
> too busy fighting to keep their guns because our criminal
> justice system has about as much a grasp on reality as you
> do. One fire at a time.
>
> >
> > Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b6e9b3...@news.gte.net>...
> > |On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:22 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
> > |<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
> > |
> > |>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
> > |
Jafo
to Sac Of Tomatoes:
<snipped to bring focus; see thread>
>You seem to be very emotional about gun control issues, and their
>effect on segments of the population, yet you spoof the fact that
>this man, with a history of mental problems, assault charges, and
>other anti social behavior, had a large cache of weapons at his
>home. He has them, and was able to use them in the fashion that
>he did - shooting children - because advocates like you minimize
>every legitimate effort at gun control. Then you say, "enforce
>the existing laws" but the children are already dead. Too late.
Your pretense of an artificially "reasonable" posture masks the
primary question: How would every "legitimate effort at gun control"
that we've thus far seen serve to stop this man from obtaining
weapons?
Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
--
~ Jafo http://www.cheetah.net/jafo/
Steve Koterski
<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
>Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
>start.
If it can be proved that an act like this was a result of the group and the
group knew in advance that this act was going to occur, maybe. But
otherwise it is one member of a group acting on his own, then there is no
group guilt.
If you look at my name you should see by my ancestry that I should have
little sympathy for Nazis. But at the same time I fear the other
extremists: the ones in a panic and overreacting, actually calling for
lessing our (all of our) Constitutional rights in the name of greater
security. I do not know the solution to problems like this one, but it must
come from level headed thinking and cool emotions -- not panic, actions
borne of short-sidedness, and overreaction.
>If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
>to do it.
What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Steve Koterski "You may already be a loser."
Felton, CA -- Form letter received by
Rodney Dangerfield
Jafo
Steve Koterski wrote, in reply to Miguel O"Pastel:
>What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
>Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
>Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
Yes. They'll probably even get their uniforms from the same supplier.
Miguel O'Pastel
bullshits each other about their crimes against the working class. I am
most amused.
M
Sac Of Tomatoes wrote in message <37B3ED4B...@hotmail.com>...
|Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
|>
|> Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
|> start.
|
|Gee, good tinking Miguel. Enforcing laws... you might be on to
|something revolutionary there Santa Anna. Kinda like when
|Bufford's hate group 'The Order' was broken up by sending most of it's
|members to prison and the death of it's leader due to a shoot out with
|Federal Agents. Something like that huh? Never mind that Bufford
|tried to get mental health treatment and was given the bums rush
|because he threaten a mental hospital staff member with a knife
|and was considered too violent for a rubber sweater but docile
|enough to be released to the streets... and to care for all those
|lonely guns in his possession. Way to go Miguel... you seem to
|have your eye on the ball with this syndicate and RICO thing.
|
|> If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
|> to do it.
|> M
|
|Don't hold your breath moron. The 'citizens' are already
|too busy fighting to keep their guns because our criminal
|justice system has about as much a grasp on reality as you
|do. One fire at a time.
|
|
|>
|> Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b6e9b3...@news.gte.net>...
|> |On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:22 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|> |<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|> |
|> |>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
|> |
Miguel O'Pastel
M
Jafo wrote in message <37b5397a...@news1.cheetah.net>...
Miguel O'Pastel
prosecute these groups indicates that the government finds them useful in
some way.
M
Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b75ac9...@news.gte.net>...
|On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:13:49 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|
|>Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
|>start.
|
|If it can be proved that an act like this was a result of the group and the
|group knew in advance that this act was going to occur, maybe. But
|otherwise it is one member of a group acting on his own, then there is no
|group guilt.
|
|If you look at my name you should see by my ancestry that I should have
|little sympathy for Nazis. But at the same time I fear the other
|extremists: the ones in a panic and overreacting, actually calling for
|lessing our (all of our) Constitutional rights in the name of greater
|security. I do not know the solution to problems like this one, but it must
|come from level headed thinking and cool emotions -- not panic, actions
|borne of short-sidedness, and overreaction.
|
|>If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
|>to do it.
|
|What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
|Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
|Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
|
Miguel O'Pastel
M
Sac Of Tomatoes wrote in message <37B3E128...@hotmail.com>...
Miguel O'Pastel
M
dot...@dot.net wrote in message <37B430F4...@dot.net>...
|Sac Of Tomatoes wrote:
|
|> Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
|> >
|> > Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be
a
|> > start.
|>
|> Gee, good tinking Miguel. Enforcing laws... you might be on to
|> something revolutionary there Santa Anna. Kinda like when
|> Bufford's hate group 'The Order' was broken up by sending most of it's
|> members to prison and the death of it's leader due to a shoot out with
|> Federal Agents. Something like that huh? Never mind that Bufford
|> tried to get mental health treatment and was given the bums rush
|> because he threaten a mental hospital staff member with a knife
|> and was considered too violent for a rubber sweater but docile
|> enough to be released to the streets...
|
|You keep offering this incorrect version of the events. Do you do it on
|purpose? Or are you just too lazy to read the news accounts and get it
correct?
|Maybe it just serves your purposes (whatever they may be) to push this
|distortion. Get it straight. Buford was in a mental hospital for a month
before
|he was released. When he went to another clinic to ask to be readmitted,
he
|assaulted a member of the intake staff while they were processing him. The
|police were called and he was locked up for that assault. He wasn't given
the
|"bums rush" as you put it. He was arrested. Since his was a voluntary
|admission, the process was stopped at that point. Would you have it
otherwise?
|You seem to be very emotional about gun control issues, and their effect on
|segments of the population, yet you spoof the fact that this man, with a
history
|of mental problems, assault charges, and other anti social behavior, had a
large
|cache of weapons at his home. He has them, and was able to use them in
the
|fashion that he did - shooting children - because advocates like you
minimize
|every legitimate effort at gun control. Then you say, "enforce the
existing
|laws" but the children are already dead. Too late.And you seem to want
more
|vigorous efforts to "hospitalize" or in other ways, get people with mental
|problems off of the streets. But you apparently fail to see how much more
|draconian these laws, and their enforcement, might be to your whimpering
desire
|to be free of the government. A good MSW could parse your posts
sufficiently to
|warrant a ninety day observation period.
|
|> and to care for all those
|> lonely guns in his possession. Way to go Miguel... you seem to
|> have your eye on the ball with this syndicate and RICO thing.
|>
|> > If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
|> > to do it.
|> > M
|>
|> Don't hold your breath moron. The 'citizens' are already
|> too busy fighting to keep their guns because our criminal
|> justice system has about as much a grasp on reality as you
|> do. One fire at a time.
|>
|> >
|> > Steve Koterski wrote in message <37b6e9b3...@news.gte.net>...
|> > |On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:32:22 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|> > |<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|> > |
|> > |>L.A. shooting suspect surrenders in Las Vegas
|> > |
dot...@dot.com
> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:13:49 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
> <heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
>
> >Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be a
> >start.
>
> If it can be proved that an act like this was a result of the group and the
> group knew in advance that this act was going to occur, maybe. But
> otherwise it is one member of a group acting on his own, then there is no
> group guilt.
>
> If you look at my name you should see by my ancestry that I should have
> little sympathy for Nazis. But at the same time I fear the other
> extremists: the ones in a panic and overreacting, actually calling for
> lessing our (all of our) Constitutional rights in the name of greater
> security. I do not know the solution to problems like this one, but it must
> come from level headed thinking and cool emotions -- not panic, actions
> borne of short-sidedness, and overreaction.
>
> >If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
> >to do it.
>
> What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
> Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
> Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
You could try just ignoring them. The Jews in Europe, along with most of the
rest of the world, tried that in the '30's. Didn't work out to their benefit,
but then maybe times have changed.Not!
dot...@dot.com
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:51:33 -0700, dot...@dot.net wrote, in reply
> to Sac Of Tomatoes:
>
> <snipped to bring focus; see thread>
>
> >You seem to be very emotional about gun control issues, and their
> >effect on segments of the population, yet you spoof the fact that
> >this man, with a history of mental problems, assault charges, and
> >other anti social behavior, had a large cache of weapons at his
> >home. He has them, and was able to use them in the fashion that
> >he did - shooting children - because advocates like you minimize
> >every legitimate effort at gun control. Then you say, "enforce
> >the existing laws" but the children are already dead. Too late.
>
> Your pretense of an artificially "reasonable" posture masks the
> primary question: How would every "legitimate effort at gun control"
> that we've thus far seen serve to stop this man from obtaining
> weapons?
Most of his guns, by news accounts, were acquired prior to his criminal
behavior. He is said to have been a federally licensed gun dealer before
he lost that privilege by running afoul of the law. There is no
justifiably reason for possessing the kind of weapons he used to kill and
maim in LA. However, all attempts to eliminate those kinds of weapons
from the market place have been hampered by gun rights advocates who
insist that they are necessary to combat the criminals that run our
streets. What they think the police are doing (who almost universally
oppose these weapons being sold to anyone), I can't imagine. But reality
doesn't seem to be an issue in these discussions. The simple fact is that
if these guns were not available to the population at large, as they now
are, there would not be tragedies such as we see more and more
frequently. Imagine the same event of earlier this week, only with Buford
using a bolt action 30.06, scooped for hunting (or for shooting invaders
from black helicopters from a mountain hiding place). Do you think the
results would have been the same? Of course not. Would your constitutional
rights still be unaffected? Of course they would.
>
>
> Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
> it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
> effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
> rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
> criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
But before they are criminals, they are our neighbors, just out hunting,
or protecting their homes (ever wonder why their is such a disparity
between the number of rifles sold every year and the number of hunting
licenses issued). They only become criminals after the children lay
dead. Gun advocates who justify their insistence for armament in the face
of some imagined Federal Armageddon need to get a grasp on the real world
and how it has passed them by, and what they can do about it. A little
self-esteem counseling, or maybe some longer term residential programs
such as Buford experienced, may be the answer to their fears. More guns
are not the answer, no matter what the question is.
Jafo
>Jafo wrote in message <37b5397a...@news1.cheetah.net>...
>|Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
>|it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
>|effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
>|rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
>|criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
>|
>|See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
>| http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
>Fascist URLs. You have come out of the closet?
Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
Or was that merely the knee-jerk response of somebody who didn't even
bother to view the two articles?
Jafo
>I sure bring the crypto-fascists out of the woodwork, don't I?
You *are* a fascist, Miguel. No cryto about it.
Jafo
>I cam on Usenet originally to see how the right wing white middle
>class bullshits each other about their crimes against the working
>class. I am most amused.
Almost as amused as everyone else is by your Wobbly pronouncements.
Miguel O'Pastel
M
Jafo wrote in message <37b6dc43...@news1.cheetah.net>...
Miguel O'Pastel
M
Jafo wrote in message <37bd6a67...@news1.cheetah.net>...
|As viewed from alt.california on Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:02:26 GMT,
|Steve Koterski wrote, in reply to Miguel O"Pastel:
|
|>What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
|>Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
|>Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
|
|Yes. They'll probably even get their uniforms from the same supplier.
|
Miguel O'Pastel
hundreds of thousands of nazis in the US prior to WWII. Many of these
families have moderated into Republicans. Many have not.
M
dot...@dot.com wrote in message <37B4B017...@dot.com>...
|Steve Koterski wrote:
|
|> On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:13:49 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|> <heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|>
|> >Enforcement of the criminal syndicalism laws and the RICO laws would be
a
|> >start.
|>
|> If it can be proved that an act like this was a result of the group and
the
|> group knew in advance that this act was going to occur, maybe. But
|> otherwise it is one member of a group acting on his own, then there is no
|> group guilt.
|>
|> If you look at my name you should see by my ancestry that I should have
|> little sympathy for Nazis. But at the same time I fear the other
|> extremists: the ones in a panic and overreacting, actually calling for
|> lessing our (all of our) Constitutional rights in the name of greater
|> security. I do not know the solution to problems like this one, but it
must
|> come from level headed thinking and cool emotions -- not panic, actions
|> borne of short-sidedness, and overreaction.
|>
|> >If the government doesn't stop them, it will be up to the citizens
|> >to do it.
|>
|> What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
|> Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
|> Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
|
Miguel O'Pastel
M
Jafo wrote in message <37c0eb11...@news1.cheetah.net>...
|On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:54:30 -0700, Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
|
|>I cam on Usenet originally to see how the right wing white middle
|>class bullshits each other about their crimes against the working
|>class. I am most amused.
|
|Almost as amused as everyone else is by your Wobbly pronouncements.
|
Miguel O'Pastel
been much more horrible. 00 buckshot contains nine .30 caliber pellets in
each round and shotguns hold 7 or 8 rounds. I can buy a stolen gun on the
street for $25, or have someone killed for $50. Taking guns away form the
people will not change that. Guns can come in the country as easily as
drugs. Guns could be manufactured in clandestine shops once their price is
inflated by controls.
M
dot...@dot.com wrote in message <37B4AF65...@dot.com>...
|> Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
|> it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
|> effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
|> rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
|> criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
|
|But before they are criminals, they are our neighbors, just out hunting,
|or protecting their homes (ever wonder why their is such a disparity
|between the number of rifles sold every year and the number of hunting
|licenses issued). They only become criminals after the children lay
|dead. Gun advocates who justify their insistence for armament in the face
|of some imagined Federal Armageddon need to get a grasp on the real world
|and how it has passed them by, and what they can do about it. A little
|self-esteem counseling, or maybe some longer term residential programs
|such as Buford experienced, may be the answer to their fears. More guns
|are not the answer, no matter what the question is.
|
|>
|>
|> See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
|> http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
|>
hc23hc
>
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:52:20 -0700, Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
>
> >I sure bring the crypto-fascists out of the woodwork, don't I?
>
Reduced to laundering Bill's wet work on the English language
now, are you, Jafo ?
.
.
.
Jafo
>Jafo wrote...
>|Steve Koterski wrote, in reply to Miguel O"Pastel:
>|>What are you saying here? Paramilitary forces to stamp out these people?
>|>Camps of armed civilians, teaching them to conduct combat? Vigilantism?
>|>Isn't this the same thing you are posting against?
>|Yes. They'll probably even get their uniforms from the same supplier.
>You, no doubt. Since your class loves to profit from the wars you start.
I haven't started any lately, but I'll keep it in mind.
Miguel O'Pastel
Square Garden, New York.
M
Wild Rice wrote in message <37b5eed9...@news.newsguy.com>...
|On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:14:36 -0700, "Miguel O'Pastel"
|<heresl...@you.kid> wrote:
|
|>By the time you are sucker-punched, it will be too late. There were
|>hundreds of thousands of nazis in the US prior to WWII. Many of these
|>families have moderated into Republicans. Many have not.
|
|If you're shoting from the hip, insert evidence here:
|
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|>
|
|Wild Rice
Miguel O'Pastel
of Colombia. Act now and you can get in on the ground floor.
M
Jafo wrote in message <37be68c6...@news1.cheetah.net>...
Joseph Canale
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:58:14 -0700, Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
>
> >Jafo wrote in message <37b5397a...@news1.cheetah.net>...
> >|Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
> >|it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
> >|effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
> >|rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
> >|criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
> >|
> >|See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
> >| http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
>
> >Fascist URLs. You have come out of the closet?
>
> Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
> about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
Do read the Jewish World Review? They carry Russ Smith's column, who is
the owner/publisher of the NY Press. I read his column in that publication
very week. So, I'm interested to know what you think of his views, if you
have read him, of course.
Joe
Jafo
>On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jafo wrote:
>> Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
>> about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
>Do read the Jewish World Review? They carry Russ Smith's column, who is
>the owner/publisher of the NY Press. I read his column in that publication
>very week. So, I'm interested to know what you think of his views, if you
>have read him, of course.
I'm sorry to say that I haven't paid as close attention to the
JWR's online site as I should have, especially considering that its
editor-in-chief, Binyamin Jolkovsky was kind enough to assist me some
months ago in locating a particular Sowell column that wasn't properly
indexed. As Mr. Jolkovsky wrote in his email, and as the website
states, the JWR has no advertising budget and spreads by word of
mouth. Since clicking on banner ads helps keep them going, I even
click on a few of the damned things while I'm there. They seem to
have added more columnists over the past few months.
I haven't read Smith, aka "Mugger" (an interesting choice of moniker
for a New Yawker), but on the strength of your statement I read his
current column on Jerry Ford and I'll check out his archives. There
seems to be nearly a year's worth, so it'll have to wait until I have
a bit more time.
BTW, welcome back eduJoe; how was the summer vacation? ;^)
Stan Rothwell
> On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jafo wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:58:14 -0700, Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
> >
> > >Jafo wrote in message <37b5397a...@news1.cheetah.net>...
> > >|Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
> > >|it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
> > >|effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
> > >|rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
> > >|criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
> > >|
> > >|See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
> > >| http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
> >
> > >Fascist URLs. You have come out of the closet?
> >
> > Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
> > about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
>
> Do read the Jewish World Review? They carry Russ Smith's column, who is
> the owner/publisher of the NY Press. I read his column in that publication
> very week. So, I'm interested to know what you think of his views, if you
> have read him, of course.
Sowell's JWR columns hit the nail on the head... youshould read him more
often, but you might not like
what he has to say at first...
Still, it would be worth the initial pain you will experience.
Stan
Joseph Canale
> On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:24:10 -0400, Joseph Canale wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jafo wrote:
> >> Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
> >> about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
>
> >Do read the Jewish World Review? They carry Russ Smith's column, who is
> >the owner/publisher of the NY Press. I read his column in that publication
> >very week. So, I'm interested to know what you think of his views, if you
> >have read him, of course.
>
> I'm sorry to say that I haven't paid as close attention to the
> JWR's online site as I should have, especially considering that its
> editor-in-chief, Binyamin Jolkovsky was kind enough to assist me some
> months ago in locating a particular Sowell column that wasn't properly
> indexed. As Mr. Jolkovsky wrote in his email, and as the website
> states, the JWR has no advertising budget and spreads by word of
> mouth. Since clicking on banner ads helps keep them going, I even
> click on a few of the damned things while I'm there. They seem to
> have added more columnists over the past few months.
You are a T. Sowell fan. He's not carried in any NY dailies that I know
of, although I recall his column in the SF Examiner.
> I haven't read Smith, aka "Mugger" (an interesting choice of moniker
> for a New Yawker), but on the strength of your statement I read his
> current column on Jerry Ford and I'll check out his archives. There
> seems to be nearly a year's worth, so it'll have to wait until I have
> a bit more time.
I think, but do not know for sure, that the "Mugger" alias is a reference
to his neo-conservative politics. Was it Norman Podhoretz who said that a
neo-con is a liberal who's been mugged? I read his free paper here every
week. It's entertaining, and contains a mix of left and right
perspectives. Carries Alexander Cockburn's highly amusing column.
Christopher Caldwell is another columnist who usually makes sense as does
Daid Corn.
> BTW, welcome back eduJoe; how was
the summer vacation? ;^) >
Thanks. Needed some time off. Work loads been heavy. I moved to Brooklyn
to a much bigger space, and did some backpacking in the Adirondacks. How
has your summer been? July was absolutely miserable around here,
weatherwise. Hottest July on record. The Rude/Hil contest's been fun to
watch though. They deserve each other. The JFK JR thing was nauseating.
Joe
Joseph Canale
> Joseph Canale wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Jafo wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:58:14 -0700, Miguel O'Pastel wrote:
> > >
> > > >Jafo wrote in message <37b5397a...@news1.cheetah.net>...
> > > >|Despite Sac's occasionally rather dramatic style, it would seem that
> > > >|it's you and not he who is reacting emotionally here. The "legitimate
> > > >|effort(s) at gun control" that you support all end up reducing the
> > > >|rights of the law-abiding members of society to own weapons. The
> > > >|criminals will always have them; that's why they call them criminals.
> > > >|
> > > >|See http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp
> > > >| http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080599.asp
> > >
> > > >Fascist URLs. You have come out of the closet?
> > >
> > > Bwahahahahahaha! Dr. Thomas Sowell is a fascist? Or is it something
> > > about the Jewish World Review that bothers you?
> >
> > Do read the Jewish World Review? They carry Russ Smith's column, who is
> > the owner/publisher of the NY Press. I read his column in that publication
> > very week. So, I'm interested to know what you think of his views, if you
> > have read him, of course.
>
> Sowell's JWR columns hit the nail on the head... youshould read him more
> often, but you might not like
> what he has to say at first...
I read his old column in the the SF Examiner. I never thought he was
an interesting conservative writer. I might be wrong. But there are
certainly other conservative columnists that I do read. I appreciate
intelligent points of view, really I do. Besides, I want to know
what the other argument is on a particular issue. Often, I find myself
agreeing with some conservative criticism, but am usually turned off
by the policy prescriptions. They never seem to really follow, generally
speaking.
> Still, it would be worth the initial pain you will experience.
I'm a big boy, Stan. What about you?
Joe
Stan Rothwell
I've spent enough time with the hard-core wackos in Berkeley that lightweights
like you and hc are no problem whatsoever... :O|
Stan
Joseph Canale
Oh, don't worry Stan. I don't consider you a conservative intellectual,
and certainly not one who merits real consideration. I mean, to begin
with, in order for me to be able to refute one of your arguments, you
would actually have to have one.
Joe
Stan Rothwell
> Oh, don't worry Stan. I don't consider you a conservative intellectual,
> and certainly not one who merits real consideration. I mean, to begin
> with, in order for me to be able to refute one of your arguments, you
> would actually have to have one.
Then why do you waste so much time trying to refutewhat I say (like 7 responses to one
post) it I have no
argument? Sounds more like you know you can't
get away with the same tripe that passes for logic
in your oh-so-trendy NYC coffeehouses... :O(
Stan
Joseph Canale
Oh, that must be it.
More people gather in bars/clubs and restaurants here, Stan; you should
know that.
Joe