Re: OT: Reviews needed.
Cliff
>
>for me, the company culture and personality of companes i depend on is
>important and the tech help is crucial. deceptive marketing is not
>the sign of my ideal vendor.
What was the result when you asked jon_b...@yahoo.com for help?
--
Cliff
Cliff
Cliff
>It is your chance to speak out from the trenches.
>
>How factual are the statements that are made?
>How successful is the product at meeting the goals and representations
>presented?
>Was anything left out of the presentation?
>
>
>http://www10.mcadcafe.com/audio/display_media.php?category_id=10108&link_id_display=26215
Will you be interviewing jon banquer soon?
As http://blog.novedge.com did?
http://blog.novedge.com/2007/07/an-interview-wi.html
[
Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the
interview and the way to handle it. Jon didn�t respect our agreement, posting
comments under fake names. Jon�s authentic and fake comments are all posted from
the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon was
misplaced.
]
--
Cliff
phil scott
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> >for me, the company culture and personality of companes i depend on is
> >important and the tech help is crucial. deceptive marketing is not
> >the sign of my ideal vendor.
>
> --
> Cliff
I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
I dont know if anyone
could have forseen this level of cluster phuck...(driven by salesmen
faking it
as competent cad people as best i can tell...then trying to handle the
flack by
denial and saying,,,, "wow.. pipe routing is my favorite in this
pgm...I dont know
why *you are having trouble"... then you tip them what to look
for..... oops...
no call back... dead silence ensues... until ya call the management
across the pond
then you get a lot of jumping around for a while.. that may end up
fixing it, but leaves me
wondering if I need more blind sides later...
no one who trys their pipe routing with what they think is a suitable
library of parts, will get it
to run anything but a few varieties of 1 inch pipe, and so far for me
at least no flanges or fittings
available, much less valves, and no way to change the pipe size in
whatever I tried at least.
I sent em emails stating that maybe Im missing something and to get
back to me if its possible to
change the pipe size.
dead silence ensued for weeks.
. its just an error at the management level, that the sales level
isnt up to speed enough to test themselves... we are at the denial
stage now... that will be ending
monday.
for some reason there is a reluctance to simply address the issues at
the middle management level. I doubt if
upper management who engineered the superb base line aspects of the
larger program will follow suit.
Phil scott
phil scott
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:40:10 -0400, manager <consu...@engtran.com> wrote:
> >It is your chance to speak out from the trenches.
>
> >How factual are the statements that are made?
> >How successful is the product at meeting the goals and representations
> >presented?
> >Was anything left out of the presentation?
>
>
> Will you be interviewing jon banquer soon?
> Ashttp://blog.novedge.comdid?
>
> http://blog.novedge.com/2007/07/an-interview-wi.html
> [
> Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the
> interview and the way to handle it. Jon didn’t respect our agreement, posting
> comments under fake names. Jon’s authentic and fake comments are all posted from
> the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon was
> misplaced.
> ]
> --
> Cliff
regardless any god like persons flaws in some regards, anyone that
wants to hose some
bogus lying software company is fine with me.
Im an engineer but with an extensive hands on background. the first
thing I do on a job site (I do forensic work etc)
is talk to the men working the shop floor including the janitors...
they as a group know whats going on, and following
their lead I can determin what idiot in management has hosed their
operation. .. the men on the shop floor range from
about 10% right to 50% right, not 100% right...but collectively, along
with my own research it is their input that solves
the problem. Management does not have the on the ground insight to
even come close in many cases..and thats true
at the cad level in many cases im sure.
what looks good on the screen may miss the point of how you can tool
up to get the result. the shop floor guys do nothing
but cope with that all day... the cad guy often doesnt even kinow its
a problem because he does not know the wide variety of
machines and tooling limitations etc.
Phil scott
brew...@aol.com
<ph...@philscott.net> wrote:
>I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
>JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
>
>I dont know if anyone could have forseen this
>level of cluster phuck...(driven by salesmen
>faking it as competent cad people as best i can
>tell...then trying to handle the flack by
>denial and saying,,,, "wow.. pipe routing is my favorite in this
>pgm...I dont know why *you are having trouble"...
>then you tip them what to look for..... oops...
Well Phil, it was an expensive lesson, your dime, your mistake. You
bought an Expensive CAD Program with little more due diligence on your
part than seeing a canned demo and getting assurances from demo sales
jockeys that it will do what you want.
You and our Bandqueer bought into the prerelease hype without ever
having seat time or evaluating the program based on your specific
wants and needs. Hopefully you and people reading of your experience
have learned a little something on evaluating computer programs.
Cliff
>On Jul 3, 2:41�pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>
>> >for me, the company culture and personality of companes i depend on is
>> >important and the tech help is crucial. � deceptive marketing is not
>> >the sign of my ideal vendor.
>>
>> � What was the result when you asked jon_banq...@yahoo.com for help?
>> --
>> Cliff
>
>I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
>JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
He doesn't have a clue.
>no one who trys their pipe routing with what they think is a suitable
>library of parts, will get it
>to run anything but a few varieties of 1 inch pipe, and so far for me
>at least no flanges or fittings
>available, much less valves, and no way to change the pipe size in
>whatever I tried at least.
>
>
>I sent em emails stating that maybe Im missing something and to get
>back to me if its possible to
>change the pipe size.
That sounds so silly I suspect something has been missed
(or not properly installed).
From http://www.engineeringexchange.com/group/solidedgeexchange
[
Solid Edge has a piping library that works well with Xpress Route. The piping
library can be installed from the product dvd.
Or you can explore SMAP 3D Piping which also works well with Xpress Route. See
the website for more info:
http://www.smap3d.com/en-cad/CAD-piping.html
]
[
I can also suggest a 3D modeling website that specializes in libraries of
parametric components for 2D/3D CAD assemblies from all kinds of manufacturers.
This could also be a usefull tool.
http://www.tracepartsonline.net
]
[
Have you ever tried downloading the piping library from the Solid Edge standard
parts websight?
http://www.solidedge.com/prodinfo/standardparts
The libraries should be at the bottom of this page and they are available for
downloading. You may want to check back from time to time to see if the
libraries are updated. Hope this helps some.
]
From
http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/Images/se%20xpresroute%20fs%20W%206_tcm53-5041.pdf
[
Automatic 3D componentsOnce the path is defined, a solid model of the system of
tubes or pipes is established along the path segment, creating an accurate
virtual mockup. Designers can specify attributes such as size, extents and end
treatments via simple dialog boxes. For piping systems, 3D pipes, fittings and
components areautomatically positioned and correctly oriented upon
population.All components are fully associative
]
Looks like you first have to define the path/route THEN
add attributes such as size, fittings & etc.
Probably defaults as 1 if not done.
Which makes perfect sense to me.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>On Jul 3, 2:56�pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:40:10 -0400, manager <consu...@engtran.com> wrote:
>> >It is your chance to speak out from the trenches.
>>
>> >How factual are the statements that are made?
>> >How successful is the product at meeting the goals and representations
>> >presented?
>> >Was anything left out of the presentation?
>>
>> >http://www10.mcadcafe.com/audio/display_media.php?category_id=10108&l...
>>
>> � Will you be interviewing jon banquer soon?
>> � Ashttp://blog.novedge.comdid?
>>
>> �http://blog.novedge.com/2007/07/an-interview-wi.html
>> [
>> Before the interview, I made an agreement with Jon about the style of the
>> interview and the way to handle it. Jon didn�t respect our agreement, posting
>> comments under fake names. Jon�s authentic and fake comments are all posted from
>> the same IP address, 72.199.251.224. I can now see that my trust in Jon was
>> misplaced.
>> ]
>> --
>> Cliff
>
>regardless any god like persons flaws in some regards, anyone that
>wants to hose some
>bogus lying software company is fine with me.
banquer is too clueless to even know what the software does.
>Im an engineer but with an extensive hands on background. the first
>thing I do on a job site (I do forensic work etc)
>is talk to the men working the shop floor including the janitors...
>they as a group know whats going on,
I doubt that. They only see bits. Often entirely the wrong bits.
>and following
>their lead I can determin what idiot in management has hosed their
>operation. .. the men on the shop floor range from
>about 10% right to 50% right, not 100% right...but collectively, along
>with my own research it is their input that solves
>the problem. Management does not have the on the ground insight to
>even come close in many cases..and thats true
>at the cad level in many cases im sure.
There does need to be a good working feedback loop.
>what looks good on the screen may miss the point of how you can tool
>up to get the result. the shop floor guys do nothing
>but cope with that all day... the cad guy often doesnt even kinow its
>a problem because he does not know the wide variety of
>machines and tooling limitations etc.
That's not the "CAD guy's" job.
That's part of the CAM guy's job or, better yet and done
in good shops, the job of properly configured software & set
of processes.
It's NOT for the machine operator to make MDI edits to fix.
You fix the system & te CAM guy and don't keep having the problems.
Then the fixes are associative and the overall process works first time
(til the next unforseen problem to be fixed).
banquer EDITS !!!! *His own claimed code* per him.
>
>
>
>Phil scott
--
Cliff
Cliff
Tom,
The new features are not much material to what he needs AFAIK.
Why banquer tried to sell stuff he knows almost nothing about &
has never used to a newbie without even grasping what sort of work
he needed to do based on them (the new features) only morons know.
And it very much looks like Phil has not learned the program all that
well either ... sad to say. Same for the prior AutoCad or Inventor
stuff ....
SE or the prior software or many other packages should work just fine
if properly learned & used I think.
Many others use them without problem for similar work.
--
Cliff
phil scott
> >I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
> >JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
>
> >I dont know if anyone could have forseen this
> >level of cluster phuck...(driven by salesmen
> >faking it as competent cad people as best i can
> >tell...then trying to handle the flack by
> >denial and saying,,,, "wow.. pipe routing is my favorite in this
> >pgm...I dont know why *you are having trouble"...
> >then you tip them what to look for..... oops...
>
> Well Phil, it was an expensive lesson, your dime, your mistake. You
> bought an Expensive CAD Program with little more due diligence on your
> part than seeing a canned demo and getting assurances from demo sales
> jockeys that it will do what you want.
Mirsterr Brewer... you are 100% entirely correct... I had absolutely
NO faintest
idea that a major company would even come remotely close to having
these kinds of issues.
I keep hoping that I myself have yet made more errors, such as being
unable to find their
libraries or whatever... but the salesmen then refer me to the
'library' I did find, which was only
for 1" size tube or pipe, and no fittings that I could find... so
these had no clue either.
If had been buying a car and was dealing with Yugo maybe i might not
be surprised if it had issues,
but a chevy from GM... it should not have many surprises.
Lets hope Im an idiot... that has been the case in the past.
I noticed however just a few minutes ago that cant tweek the pipe
routes, I get 4 options thats it, I can tweek
only the terminaiton lenghts..thats it. and it has no parallel rack
mounted piping ability that I can see, esp when
you make some kinds of turns in a rack where all the pipe has to
change elevation... I dont think it does that..yet
te money demanded is no par with say IV which does all that and
limitlessly more.
>
> You and our Bandqueer bought into the prerelease hype without ever
> having seat time or evaluating the program based on your specific
> wants and needs. Hopefully you and people reading of your experience
> have learned a little something on evaluating computer programs.
yes... hopefully.
the program at this stage is not pre-release, its been through many
upgrades so far. many if not ,most
of the sales staff have no clue that these are even issues... V1 synch
came out in Oct 08 as a functinal version
when I am explicit with question no doubt they
look ...but then do not get back to me....
also, as an indicator... some of the fine fine looking tutorials will
not work..for instance they direct you in assembly mode
to constraint to one edge, then another edge. and thats fine...but
then to align with a hole... and that wont fly of course
because you are already constrained to edges that preclude lining up
the hole.... if you just contrane to one edge and the hole,
it works fine.
what that tells me is that there was not testing. and that not
enough people have done the tutorials to that level and noticed or
reported the error...and that no one a the company cared to fix the
error.
from etch a sketch... Id expect this..or even from sketch-up... or one
of those 29 dollar 3D programs...but not from a major player that
has already developed and sold world class 2D, 3D and plain vanilla
solids software.
I will give them a break, but not while paying full bore pricing for
maintenance, and way more than full bore pricing for their add ons
that
are way less than 1% capable compared to what the competition has on
the market.... for instance if you go into a Ruths Chris steak
house and pay 100 dollars for a steak, you are not expecting what
others sell for 3 dollars...both are steaks, but there is a rational
expectation that
at top end pricing, with top end demo's that you would something at
least close to top end results.
with this vendor you DO...in some aspects... in other aspects, they do
not seem to realize yet how far off base they are...and with attitude
no
less. I will say this though, their help desk service is world
class though, with no attitude.
and of course just for the record we all know which sofware Im talking
about here... FREEZE-CO from the south pole..not any company we know,
so far
far least... I want to be fair. Im only faintly competent myself
with software.. but Ive seen these things for sure, and there are no
answers forthcoming.
**
re my costs... money is one issue, time wasted and lost production go
way beyond that.... if the reps had been straight with me up
front I could have dodged these bullets, but no...the reps said such
things as 'Hey! the routing program is my favorite it works like
greased
lightening" sorry thats only 1% true at the most rudimentary and
entirely limited levels, for one size pipe..with no
fittings...duhhh.
Id say there was absolutely ** no testing with real live seasoned
engineers in the
relevant fields.. just graphics guys and not extensively at that...
such as testing to see if they can connect a bank of one set of ports
to another set of
ports in 3D so it looks good and comports with what is expected as a
workman like job in the industry.... maybe it can be finagled to do
that... so far I dont see that option, such as routing the pipe though
a set of points. all I see is end to end options. that works for
single pipes but not rack mounted piping... almost all of the big
stuff or high end work is extensive and its all laid in real perrrdy
like, parallel, etc.
Time will tell...so far, judging by the tutorials etc..and whats
available in dialog boxes, the framers of these strategies had no
faintest idea of what
it takes on the ground... they say this is purchased add-on.... then
why in that case did they try to separate the vital aspect of library
components from just the routing? and sell that separately? thats
like selling a car engine with pistons extra... then of course that
has issues, because the crankshaft is extra, then of course if you
want to control the intake gasses you will need an intake manifold,
duh '\"any *idiot knows that" (I just loves the attitude) ....thats
extra. etc.
Oh yes and YOU forgot to order pistion rings with the pistons for your
engine, and our ring gap service...thats extra... along with ring
grooves and wrist pin bores.. cir clip retainers of course are not
provided..you have to get those from some other vendor... try
searching our link to google with 'circlips,be sure to specify the
wrist pin diameter your chose... or you can find that in the
machinists hand book)
Not mentionng which of the 6 company modeling programs I am
investigating yet...lets say this is one headquartered in the south
pole.
a very profitable approach Im sure from these people or at least this
division... one wonders what sort of management genius's came up with
such an iimpressive strategy...I have not talked to their offices on
Mars yet but I have talked to their office in the south pole so to
speak.. when asking for the president or VP you get asked 'in which
sales area'... then you get a salty call back, from the sales VP for
the area declaring that no one else has has had issues, 'our software
is the worlds best, whats YOUR problem'... furhter probing produces
other contacts which get back to you promptly, then you point up the
issues you've found, they say they will take to one of their pro's.
and get back to you in a few minutes.... no call back at all... days
later with enough peristence you can manage to get the guy on the horn
again.. with a promise of a call back from the pro. etc.
One of us is entirely **loopy...... it must be me.
I cant imagine in my wildest dreams any branch of any major firm with
billions at stake having gone down such a road that far.
Phil scott
.
>
> --
> Tomhttp://tinyurl.com/5okkgz
phil scott
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:09:54 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Jul 3, 2:41 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> >> >for me, the company culture and personality of companes i depend on is
> >> >important and the tech help is crucial. deceptive marketing is not
> >> >the sign of my ideal vendor.
>
> >> What was the result when you asked jon_banq...@yahoo.com for help?
> >> --
> >> Cliff
>
> >I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
> >JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
>
> He doesn't have a clue.
>
> >no one who trys their pipe routing with what they think is a suitable
> >library of parts, will get it
> >to run anything but a few varieties of 1 inch pipe, and so far for me
> >at least no flanges or fittings
> >available, much less valves, and no way to change the pipe size in
> >whatever I tried at least.
>
> >I sent em emails stating that maybe Im missing something and to get
> >back to me if its possible to
> >change the pipe size.
>
> That sounds so silly I suspect something has been missed
> (or not properly installed).
me too... but see my response to Tom.. the salesmen think the micro
library of only
1" pipe supplied is a workable library.... duhhh. that has to tell
me something...no fittings
either. (thats extrra)
>
> Fromhttp://www.engineeringexchange.com/group/solidedgeexchange
> [
> Solid Edge has a piping library that works well with Xpress Route. The piping
> library can be installed from the product dvd.
> Or you can explore SMAP 3D Piping which also works well with Xpress Route. See
> the website for more info:
>
> http://www.smap3d.com/en-cad/CAD-piping.html
> ]
> [
> I can also suggest a 3D modeling website that specializes in libraries of
> parametric components for 2D/3D CAD assemblies from all kinds of manufacturers.
> This could also be a usefull tool.
>
> http://www.tracepartsonline.net
Thank you very much... I will for sure be able to use that with
TurboCAD...but at the price of this stuff
Im gettng from the south pole so to speak, I need a workable
package..integrated with their system, not this
sort of spin and baloney Im getting of course.
> ]
> [
> Have you ever tried downloading the piping library from the Solid Edge standard
> parts websight?
no.. that was never suggested. Im surprised that none of their on
site guru's, var's, sales people
or help desk people suggested that.
makes ya wonder doesnt it? what I did hear was that the piping
library was at extra cost... someone
somewhere doesnt have clue one it seems..
>
> http://www.solidedge.com/prodinfo/standardparts
>
> The libraries should be at the bottom of this page and they are available for
> downloading. You may want to check back from time to time to see if the
> libraries are updated. Hope this helps some.
> ]
>
> Fromhttp://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/Images/se%20xpresroute%20...
> [
> Automatic 3D componentsOnce the path is defined, a solid model of the system of
> tubes or pipes is established along the path segment, creating an accurate
> virtual mockup. Designers can specify attributes such as size, extents and end
> treatments via simple dialog boxes. For piping systems, 3D pipes, fittings and
> components areautomatically positioned and correctly oriented upon
> population.All components are fully associative
> ]
>
> Looks like you first have to define the path/route THEN
> add attributes such as size, fittings & etc.
> Probably defaults as 1 if not done.
> Which makes perfect sense to me.
> --
> Cliff
thanks cliff....I wll go back now to your orignal post and try those
links....
Phil scott
phil scott
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:09:54 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Jul 3, 2:41 pm, Cliff <Clhupr...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:43:01 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
> >> >for me, the company culture and personality of companes i depend on is
> >> >important and the tech help is crucial. deceptive marketing is not
> >> >the sign of my ideal vendor.
>
> >> What was the result when you asked jon_banq...@yahoo.com for help?
> >> --
> >> Cliff
>
> >I only invoke the gods as a last resort.
> >JB however did drop a suitable warning note...
>
> He doesn't have a clue.
>
> >no one who trys their pipe routing with what they think is a suitable
> >library of parts, will get it
> >to run anything but a few varieties of 1 inch pipe, and so far for me
> >at least no flanges or fittings
> >available, much less valves, and no way to change the pipe size in
> >whatever I tried at least.
>
> >I sent em emails stating that maybe Im missing something and to get
> >back to me if its possible to
> >change the pipe size.
>
> That sounds so silly I suspect something has been missed
> (or not properly installed).
that turns out be the case...thanks. The first 5 guys I talked to
about this
at the company apparently didnk know about this library...now it turns
out
'that the disc sent to me for the main program doesnt have the module
required
to allow me to load these libraries.... I will sort that out with them
monday.
>
> Fromhttp://www.engineeringexchange.com/group/solidedgeexchange
> [
> Solid Edge has a piping library that works well with Xpress Route. The piping
> library can be installed from the product dvd.
> Or you can explore SMAP 3D Piping which also works well with Xpress Route. See
> the website for more info:
>
> http://www.smap3d.com/en-cad/CAD-piping.html
> ]
> [
> I can also suggest a 3D modeling website that specializes in libraries of
> parametric components for 2D/3D CAD assemblies from all kinds of manufacturers.
> This could also be a usefull tool.
>
> http://www.tracepartsonline.net
> ]
> [
> Have you ever tried downloading the piping library from the Solid Edge standard
> parts websight?
>
> http://www.solidedge.com/prodinfo/standardparts
>
> The libraries should be at the bottom of this page and they are available for
> downloading. You may want to check back from time to time to see if the
> libraries are updated. Hope this helps some.
> ]
>
> Fromhttp://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/Images/se%20xpresroute%20...
> [
> Automatic 3D componentsOnce the path is defined, a solid model of the system of
> tubes or pipes is established along the path segment, creating an accurate
> virtual mockup. Designers can specify attributes such as size, extents and end
> treatments via simple dialog boxes. For piping systems, 3D pipes, fittings and
> components areautomatically positioned and correctly oriented upon
> population.All components are fully associative
> ]
>
> Looks like you first have to define the path/route THEN
> add attributes such as size, fittings & etc.
> Probably defaults as 1 if not done.
> Which makes perfect sense to me.
the glitch appears to be in the libary that loads, its only 1'...
thats all you get
regardless when you do the routing when you pull up the routing pgm..
no hint in the
tutorials that you need to download the rest of the libary...althugh
maybe that info
is burried in there somewhere..
no one at the southpole apparently knew of the free piping library
provided... not even the
usually very capbable people ive talked to at their help desk.
Phil scott
> --
> Cliff
brew...@aol.com
<ph...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>Mirsterr Brewer... you are 100% entirely correct... I had absolutely
>NO faintest
>idea that a major company would even come remotely close to having
>these kinds of issues.
Same thing happened to me when SDRC took over CAMMAX, the upgrade path
Artisan with GenMach they tried to pawn off on us SmartCAM users was
nothing less than horrible.
>If had been buying a car and was dealing with Yugo maybe i might not
>be surprised if it had issues,
>but a chevy from GM... it should not have many surprises.
Happened to me buying a new GM car 25 years ago, spent more time in at
the dealer for repairs the first year than it spent in my driveway.
Never bought another GM product and never will, that is the real price
of poor quality, losing a customer for life.
>I cant imagine in my wildest dreams any branch of any major firm with
>billions at stake having gone down such a road that far.
Lucky for them most customers are happy, very happy with the product.
Your situation seems to be a niche market to them and one they
according to you don't understand well. However them having
misrepresented the product as they have, they should if asked by you
offer a refund. If no refund then at least free upgrades till issues
are resolved, something to offset your costs due to their
misrepresentations.
Tom
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
thats largely accurate... I barely knew IV.. although I could draw
fairly complex parts
and assemblies, and do pipe routing etc... but not easily at all.
...and am still muddling with the other programs Im trying,
I also tend to over react to red flags that pop up or what I might
percieve to be red flags..
as when someone says they will call me back with an answer and I dont
get a call back..
after a few interations I begin to suspect there are issues that there
are no solutions for.
or when a tutorial is simly off base, telling you to go to
'groups'...when there are none in that context it is
refering to the 'groups' of menu items such as sketch, view and
etc..but noting labled 'groups'...or
tells you in great detail in assy to aling this edge, then that edge,
then the holes...and the holes wont align
because its over constrained against the two edges.
that tells you that not one single human being at the company is
testing the tutorials.
then when the locals, tell you the library works for them... and then
they bring up theirs..and read
it to you, and its the same one you have on your machine... a weeks
testing later proves that only runs
some kinds of 1" pipe and no fittings... what does that tell you about
the guy?
thats after wasted weeks and many phone calls.
I think what we see a lot is salesmen with only light training
involved in tutoring and acting as resident
experts locally.
One of the early red flages was the guy showing me cad work he had
done in the 80's on Acad 12, as a demonstration
of his competence.... yet he was able to show me some things on the
software in question.. but only from the tutorials, none
pertaining to what needed done, steel assemblies etc.. I had
assumed in error no doubt that he would have some sort of
at least minor body of work on software he claimed to be using for his
other business... but no... just this one from acad 12
in 1989 or whatever.
Phil scott
vinny
<brew...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:oj7v451slmdacc0hp...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
> <ph...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Mirsterr Brewer... you are 100% entirely correct... I had absolutely
>>NO faintest
>>idea that a major company would even come remotely close to having
>>these kinds of issues.
>
> Same thing happened to me when SDRC took over CAMMAX, the upgrade path
> Artisan with GenMach they tried to pawn off on us SmartCAM users was
> nothing less than horrible.
Seems UG now owns sdrc, camax, etc...
NX feels a little like camax and smartcam mixed together. Has the look of
camax and the feel of smartcam.
brew...@aol.com
>Seems UG now owns sdrc, camax, etc...
> NX feels a little like camax and smartcam mixed together. Has the look of
>camax and the feel of smartcam.
SmartCAM and Camax had some great programmers that produced products
way ahead of their time. Now SDRC's Artisan with GenMach was sooo bad
and convoluted a patchwork of modules I swear it was so bad it looked
like Cliff could have been instrumental in it's development.
I have NO idea how SDRC could get as big as they did producing POS
products like that.
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
Id say JB is working without a cam guy avaiable, a missing link,
just as some cad people no doubt
think they can set up a part to be machined by following the CAM
dialog boxes... still no cam guy to debug it. the software
company will try to invince you that their software is enough.
the machine mfgr may try to convince you that it will use any common
spread sheet and all you need to do is set up the right cutters etc.
a pro in the business will see 40 other things neigher of these
addrress.
Im reading a superb book these days on 'systems engineering'...it
seems the world at large is unaware of neet to make verything
fit...across many different broad spectrums, so you get a pefrectlyy
fine transmission connected to a perfectly fine drive shaft, with too
short a couple between to allow for each to expand and contract...
thats a real good example i think.
no 'systems' engineering... how the two must operate wthin a larger
context than either of them.
***
I am not a machiinist at all, dont know a thing about it. Boeing
was however having high scrap rates on some huge titanium parts used
to hold the wings etc to the fusalage. 5 to 6' square and 8 ft long.
no one could solve it.... they asked me to look it over, that was the
first time I ever saw a 5 axis mill.. those were about 25' tall.
5 or 6 of those and a bunch more that machined the skins. (thinner to
save weight between the ribs etc).
so I did my usual strategy I asked the mill operators to talk to me
with whatever they knew, one mentioned that all summer things seemed
to go well but that in the fall things startted to go bad
sometimes...
a cloo for pore ol philsie here.. I began asking about when the scrap
rate was highest etc..and ende up making a calender... changeable
weather seasons, and dead of winter, peak of summer were when most
scrap was caused.
they had been storing billets outside in the sun and weather, these
would get real hot or real cold, then theyd take em inside and start
milling operations as the billets came to room temperature, chaning
dimensions of course as they did so.
mgmt didnt know what I was talking about... said it was all smoke.
at the meeting where in I was to be eviscerated i had prepaired a
chart on the wall with coeficient of expanson numbers for various
materials including titanium and showing how much longer or shorter
the 8'long billets got when going from 20 below zero to 72F and
whatever...
silence ensued.
they moved der billet storage inside..
Phil scott
Cliff
>>I cant imagine in my wildest dreams any branch of any major firm with
>>billions at stake having gone down such a road that far.
>
>Lucky for them most customers are happy, very happy with the product.
>
>Your situation seems to be a niche market to them and one they
>according to you don't understand well. However them having
>misrepresented the product as they have, they should if asked by you
>offer a refund. If no refund then at least free upgrades till issues
>are resolved, something to offset your costs due to their
>misrepresentations.
Perhaps reading the install notes & docs ....
--
Cliff
Cliff
>On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:06:18 -0400, "vinny" <vi...@vp3d.net> wrote:
>
>>Seems UG now owns sdrc, camax, etc...
>> NX feels a little like camax and smartcam mixed together. Has the look of
>>camax and the feel of smartcam.
>
>SmartCAM and Camax had some great programmers that produced products
>way ahead of their time. Now SDRC's Artisan with GenMach was sooo bad
>and convoluted a patchwork of modules I swear it was so bad it looked
>like Cliff could have been instrumental in it's development.
Many of the CAM enhancements from UG V 8/9 to V 13 looked much like
some of mine in terms of functionality <G>.
At least 50% IIRC.
>I have NO idea how SDRC could get as big as they did producing POS
>products like that.
FORD.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>I am not a machiinist at all, dont know a thing about it. Boeing
>was however having high scrap rates on some huge titanium parts used
>to hold the wings etc to the fusalage. 5 to 6' square and 8 ft long.
>no one could solve it.... they asked me to look it over, that was the
>first time I ever saw a 5 axis mill.. those were about 25' tall.
>
>5 or 6 of those and a bunch more that machined the skins. (thinner to
>save weight between the ribs etc).
Never ask jb about programming such <G>.
--
Cliff
Cliff
Sounds like a mess-up by those very same "shop floor guys"
you were talking to.
And I'd have expected QC to catch it early on ... *things had
changed*. Clearly this was a fairly newish problem with a simple
root cause.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>On Jul 4, 1:09�am, brewe...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 20:56:28 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>>
>> <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>> >that claim to know their software, and are not even
>> >faintly familiar with it, what
>> >it can or cannot do... nor in some cases gross errors that make parts
>> >if it entirely non fuctional...but they
>> >talk a world class game
>>
>> In our industry they are known as "Banquer's".
>
>JB at the very least cuts em a new one after the shit hits the fan...
No, he has no clue how to use such things in the first place.
Nor is he willing to learn, read the docs, get training, ....
He even has his own private invented meanings for the words,
never having known any better what they are about.
Just adds to his endless gibberings, confusion, errors, lies & whines.
>so that warrants him god of the
>universe status from pore ol philsie here.
There is an air of cluelessness,
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>
>No product is perfect but Solid Edge with ST is a damn good product
>that is only going to get much better. You made the right choice.
Ask jb how to install & use it <BSEG>.
He does not have it or use it & never will.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>Stick with it and ride out the problems you may be having by working
>with your Siemens VAR.
<Sheesh>
Support for third party software ought to come from the third party.
Support beyond a certain point probably comes from UG GTAC support,
not any VAR.
And they probably expect a level of training first.
YOU have none.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>Id say JB is working without a cam guy avaiable
He pretends to be one.
When not pretending to know CAD.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>> � Looks like you first have to define the path/route THEN
>> add attributes such as size, fittings & etc.
>> � Probably defaults as 1 if not done.
>> � Which makes perfect sense to me.
>> --
>> Cliff
>
>
>thanks cliff....I wll go back now to your orignal post and try those
>links....
I just did a quick search & found a few things one place ... no doubt
there are many more places search for "Solid Edge" "pipe routing"
(IIRC) would find possible help.
But back to square one ...
I think you must first route the pipe THEN add the attributes
such as size, material, wall & etc.
THEN add fittings .... after all, once the size is provided
software can find fittings *for that size* to present to you
for selection & addition.
Then you may be able to run checks for interference, colliision
"can we install & maintain it" & etc.
Last might come adding brackets, hangers, trays, ... or just before
running the checks for interference, colliision & etc.
You can probably do the initial routing first for many pipes then
set the diameters or do them one by one ... whichever.
Similar for electrical & HVAC stuff.
My guess for now anyway. It's your program.
http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/partners/partner_portal/index.shtml
http://www.smap3d.com/en-cad/CAD-piping.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP2bjliA0II
--
Cliff
phil scott
depends... of course reading the install notes and docs is vital...
however some companies seem to specialize in 40,000 pages of poorly
written install notes and docs... and include also mis-directions in
their install notes and docs.... in which case a person will not live
long enough for that path to be viable.
depends on the product. and often which aspect of the product... it
can be a mix. If they give you a bogus tutorial, what are you
supposed to do? keep reading it?
some of this would be like dropping all 37 volumes of the encyclopedia
britannica on a 5 year old and calling it an education... when in
fact... it IS an education.
it is just the improper approach to an education...for reasons some
will see as obvious, others will see as proof the kid is an idiot.
The vendor has an obligation imo to see to it that his product
learning requirements are a lot more than just present.... but
digestible.
does that make any sense to you cliff. or am I off base here?
Phil scott
> --
> Cliff
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am not saying the shop floor guys do not mess up..or even know a lot
in many cases... it is from interviewing them however that you find
out whats
really going on...
you also find that one of these will have one crucial part
of the information you need to understand the mess, and someone else
may
have another... these are missing an understanding of the physics
involved but
not missing on whats manifesting... if the part comes out too short
on wednesdays,
they will know that for sure... and some among them will know why.
many if not most engineers i work with today are missing both the
physics and
whats happening....I ran into one the other day, in the HVAC business
who took me to task
for mentioning the 'hot gas' discharge from a compressor.... it turned
out that he thought,
for 20 years now, that this was a 100% *liquid cycle.. he had no idea
why the compressor was
called a compressor.. or a damn thing about any of that.
this sort of thing has become increasingly comon.... few guys on the
shop floor in that business
are that ignorant of whats going on... many are way more than quite
bright. Way more than a few
have educated me in things that are not in any text book as well....
but mixed in for sure are plenty of areas with missing data or bogus
notions.
I find it fruitful to focus on both.
When i was in LA i contracted a job for General Dynamics in Pomona, i
noticed on their walls a photo spread about the life and times of the
man who developed the F-16 fighter jet... a high school drop out....
not that i recommend that... but I am telling you that an education
provides very little assurance of understanding in some cases.
phil scott
Cliff
>On Jul 6, 8:52�am, Joe788 <joemama...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 4, 2:14�pm, jon_banquer <jon_banq...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Phil,
>>
>> > Here is the link showing just how bad Tom Brewer screwed himself over
>> > by not taking my advice. This was over ten years ago and to this day
>> > Tom Brewer *still can't get it right* because he's a first class idiot
>> > when it comes to CADCAM as well as being a liar and a loser.
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com/l8oy26
>>
>> > Jon Banquer
>> > San Diego, CA
>>
>> How many legal seats of CAM software do YOU own, Jon?
>
>JB, unlike myself is obviously bright enough not to pay for much of
>the stuff
>that comes and goes in the market ......like toilet paper, along with
So he only demos free toilet paper?
Tickets?
>its hord of
>lying salesmen... . for this
>he gets god status from me....
First you need a basic grasp of what the software
is for. He lacks that so little makes sense.
Then you have to know how to properly use it.
Another lack.
It's not the software nor sales. It's the ignorant utterly
clueless idiot.
IF this stuff is so simple ... why do they charge so much
for it (legal copies)?
Why is it so useful to actual users?
Did jb ever pass driver's ed?
__
Cliff
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
I can see clearly that JB's status as a god , given his various lacks
of absolute nitty picky perfection in our time has lit yer fuse a bit
cliff.
Do you not know that the gods live many many lifetimes?
You had
noticed also that he is not dumb enough to buy any of this crap...yet
you
fault him...you cannot have yer jello and spread it all over yer
girlfriends ass at the
same time. Did you know THAT?
If you had ever worked
in our naions nuclear weapons plants you would have completely
understood idiocy, and
not be suffering your current unappreciation of JB...who btw would
have been world class at
launch control.
so what the hell has my use of the term 'many life times' got to do
with all this.
It involves a long running discussion I
i had at Hanford labs (530 acres of breeder reactors, eastern
washington state).. these folk were constantly calling themselves
the 'weebies'... and I could never get more than a grin out of them
when I asked what a weebee was.
Finally Sue, who worked faking clean filters at glove boxes... (do
you know that that PuO is a large pear shaped
molecule that crawls...yessah daddy, that baby crawls, and a bunch of
em crawl like a herd of crabs let loose at the
Honollulu yacht club..... right back out der air inlet filters, past
der secondary diaper an all around the place... producing
that mottly red splotche complexion seen in our engineering
orifice.... she.. grinned and said
" 'we be' means we be here
when you are gone". that last of course is debatable. If you ever
worked at one of those labs you
cant get health insurance anywhere.
I appreciated your lenghty and superb reference on the gods, with that
in mind I am mystified that
you are so unwilling to grant credit.... instead, looking hard for ONE
time when someone might have
FUCKED just ONE chicken.
Really, Id say most folks, beat the average corporation in these
regards just on the basis of fewer
felony...hosing der secretary convictions.
Phil scott
Cliff
>If you had ever worked
>in our naions nuclear weapons plants
3 contract jobs at GE Nuclear IIRC <g>.
Nice folks, interesting work.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>I appreciated your lenghty and superb reference on the gods, with that
>in mind I am mystified that
>you are so unwilling to grant credit.... instead, looking hard for ONE
>time when someone might have
>FUCKED just ONE chicken.
I just KNEW this would be about jb & the chickens again someday !!!
-
Cliff
Cliff
>I can see clearly that JB's status as a god , given his various lacks
>of absolute nitty picky perfection in our time has lit yer fuse a bit
>cliff.
He's almost always funny <G>.
--
Cliff
phil scott
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:48:42 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >If you had ever worked
> >in our naions nuclear weapons plants
>
> 3 contract jobs at GE Nuclear IIRC <g>.
> Nice folks, interesting work.
> --
> Cliff
There are 3 or 4 different aspects to the nuc plants, the scientists
who are interesting, the military / security interests who can
be paranoid and were 75% of the staff at Hanford during ww2.. (now
maybe 40% of the staff) and the weebees who are almost
always fun.... and an insider cadre that resents being forced to lie
and stages all kinds of attention getting fiasco's...such as sending
a new hire idiot from alabama out to a million gallon high level
radioactives sludge tank to measure the sludge level.
he took a rope and rock and brought
the glowing mess back to der engineering trailers confernece room and
laid it out on the conference room tab;e so he could measure.
they had to bulldoze the entire engineering dept 5 miles off to der
hazardous waste land fill.
Then there was the time that whatssher name began to ask the wrong
questions (they were going to decant the liquid off of a radioactive
sludge tank that was already burping with critical mass layers, shakin
the earth clear back to Wasco...so the pure sludge could be removed
somehow more safely... (that would have been another Belaruse)...
wackenhut we suppose sent out thugs to kill a few of her cats.
(she was a chief scientist and later prevailed in court to stop the
decant tactic).
Phil scott
Cliff
>it is just the improper approach to an education...for reasons some
>will see as obvious, others will see as proof the kid is an idiot.
jb got kicked out of HS & never went back.
Simple shop math is well beyond his comprehension.
But one boss made him a set of pictures of simple right triangles.
He wanted to get them laminated.
--
Cliff
phil scott
> On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >it is just the improper approach to an education...for reasons some
> >will see as obvious, others will see as proof the kid is an idiot.
>
> jb got kicked out of HS & never went back.
> Simple shop math is well beyond his comprehension.
> But one boss made him a set of pictures of simple right triangles.
> He wanted to get them laminated.
> --
> Cliff
thats good.... you need to save anything thats right.
what did you want him to do save wrong triangles... gotts a clooo
mon.
Cliff
>On Jul 7, 9:38�am, Joe788 <joemama...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 9:08�am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 7, 8:52�am, Joe788 <joemama...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Jul 6, 12:55�pm, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Jul 6, 8:52�am, Joe788 <joemama...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Jul 4, 2:14�pm, jon_banquer <jon_banq...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > Phil,
>>
>> > > > > > Here is the link showing just how bad Tom Brewer screwed himself over
>> > > > > > by not taking my advice. This was over ten years ago and to this day
>> > > > > > Tom Brewer *still can't get it right* because he's a first class idiot
>> > > > > > when it comes to CADCAM as well as being a liar and a loser.
>>
>> > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/l8oy26
>>
>> > > > > > Jon Banquer
>> > > > > > San Diego, CA
>>
>> > > > > How many legal seats of CAM software do YOU own, Jon?
>>
>> > > > JB, unlike myself is obviously bright enough not to pay for much of
>> > > > the stuff
>> > > > that comes and goes in the market ......like toilet paper, along with
>> > > > its hord of
>> > > > lying salesmen... � � �. for this
>> > > > he gets god status from me....
>>
>> > > > Phil
>>
>> > > > Phil scott
>>
>> > > Downloading cracked copies of software doesn't make a person bright.
>> > > It makes them a thief.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > my guess, is that JB being a public commentator
>> > on some software manages to get either free trials �(most cad
>> > companies offer those to anyone) or beta copies for
>> > testing, or an outright free copy but maybe not upgradable..thats also
>> > common. �respected, and legal. � �a person
>> > using cracked software is usually a lot quieter about it.
>>
>> > On that score...ive worked for or as a consultant to many engineering
>> > firms, and some huge corporations...it is not
>> > uncomon at all to see then buy one seat, then copy it around their
>> > entire office on the QT ..often as legal temporary
>> > moves, but then have their IT person move em all each month before
>> > those time out.
>>
>> > Attempts to trash JB might be better focused on his actual *flaws
>> > (gasp, double gasp).
>>
>> > Phil scott
>>
>> > Phil scott
>>
>> One of Jon's aliases was "caught" on a bit torrent site, mentioning
>> that he's already downloaded Gibbs, and that he was looking for
>> Mastercam X2.
>>
>> We never would have known, except he was stupid enough to post with
>> that same alias here. See, Jon has a handful of logins for Google
>> groups. He logs out of "jon banquer", and then logs in as Larry, or
>> Haywood, so he can go through and mark all of his posts with that
>> coveted "5 Star" rating. More often than not, he forgets to log back
>> in as "jon banquer", and his cover is blown.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>a man fucks ONE chicken ....
>.....and right away YOU turn negative.
The United Chicken Front may have filed suit ....
--
Cliff
Cliff
>my guess, is that JB being a public commentator
>on some software manages to get either free trials (most cad
>companies offer those to anyone) or beta copies for
>testing, or an outright free copy but maybe not upgradable..thats also
>common. respected, and legal. a person
>using cracked software is usually a lot quieter about it.
These days its all about finding a two minute canned video
to get confused about <G>.
Sees a named WCS in MasterCAM in passing & decides it's a
fixture offset ...
--
Cliff
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
such is life...you ends up with a lot of bow legged chickens suiing
one
guy with a big dick.... thats interesting.
Cliff
> the salesmen think the micro
>library of only
>1" pipe supplied is a workable library.... duhhh. that has to tell
>me something...no fittings
>either.
Did you get it properly installed & find out the way to use?
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>I don�t work for a machine tool company.
Lucky them.
"You should do some research into how machine tools deliver power, and the
relationship between hp, torque and rpm, before claiming a published spec for a
machine is incorrect"
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>My policies are made quite clear on the first page of my blog:
>
>http://jonbanquer.wordpress.com/
>
>"This blog is dedicated to cutting through the bullshit that
>unfortunately fills the machining, machine tool and CADCAM industry.
>The typical forum, newsgroup or blog �fanboy� mentality simply doesn�t
>exist here.
But the blob is 100% BS from beginning to end.
Hence you lie. Again.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>I don�t take advertising money.
Which explains why I was asked if you were worth paying.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>I don�t work for a CADCAM company.
It's "CAD/CAM".
Nor do you know how to use such. so it's no wonder ....
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
>If I review a product or service and write about it on this blog you
>can be damn sure what I have to say is not because someone gave me
>something for free or at a discount or paid for me to attend a seminar
>or conference."
It's because of idiocy.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>On Jul 8, 8:23�am, jon_banquer <jon_banq...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 9:08�am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>>
>> > my guess, is that JB being a public commentator
>> > on some software manages to get either free trials �(most cad
>> > companies offer those to anyone) or beta copies for
>> > testing, or an outright free copy but maybe not upgradable..thats also
>> > common. �respected, and legal. � �a person
>> > using cracked software is usually a lot quieter about it.
>>
>> My policies are made quite clear on the first page of my blog:
>>
>> http://jonbanquer.wordpress.com/
>>
>> "This blog is dedicated to cutting through the bullshit that
>> unfortunately fills the machining, machine tool and CADCAM industry.
>> The typical forum, newsgroup or blog �fanboy� mentality simply doesn�t
>> exist here.
>>
>> I don�t take advertising money.
>>
>> I don�t work for a CADCAM company.
>>
>> I don�t work for a machine tool company.
>>
>> I do work for a company that is the biggest and most innovative of its
>> kind in its industry.
>>
>> If I review a product or service and write about it on this blog you
>> can be damn sure what I have to say is not because someone gave me
>> something for free or at a discount or paid for me to attend a seminar
>> or conference."
>>
>> Jon Banquer
>> San Diego, CA
>
>So if nobody gave you free software to evaulate, and you don't claim
>to have bought it, then you are publicly proclaiming to be either:
>1. Promoting Cracked software
>2. Blathering on about stuff you don't even use, or have access to.
>
>Either way, once again you publicly shoot yourself in the foot, form
>the neck down.
As of the first of the year the firm he claims "employs" him
was dumping 100+ seats of Pro-E (which he does not use)
& switching to UG (which he does not use) on his say-so per him.
Ask how that went.
And if he's managed to drill holes using MasterCAM yet.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>when i see attempts to spin something like that into fraud or damaging
>remarks about the person it becomes obvious that those have their own
>problems... often much worse problems than their target has... by a
>huge margin.
Except he gets caught trying for the cracked software.
And I wonder how much of the stuff for sale on Ebay is from him.
I don't think many vendors are still foolish enough to send him free demos.
He could not use them anyway. Too complicated, he does not read
the docs or instructions & the software is for doing things
he does not even begin to comprehend.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>I need production on what I do....
Ask jb how many pallets are on a ~13 pallet "production" machine.
LOL
--
Cliff
Cliff
>btw, on my own Ive figured out how to do what I need on my current
>program...
How?
>it was easy, could have been taught to me in an hour IF the
>supposed trainers actually knew how to work the software...turns out
>they knew how to run you through the tutorials but not actuall produce
>something with the software.... their easy way out...wasted months of
>my time.
They may have assumed you already knew a few things .... which
might result in puzzlement on their part about your complaints. They
were not there to watch what you were actually doing (and I've seen
users try stuff I did not believe too <G>).
What did jb say to do to use it?
--
Cliff
Cliff
>How do I know the vendors reps were clueless? half of what they told
>me turned out to be false, it was possible to many things in (their
>new paradigm) that they said were not available yet... these had no
>clue at all. to them its just normal i suppose.
You may have just not as of yet used those features.
Properly.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>> >a man fucks ONE chicken ....
>> >.....and right away YOU turn negative.
>>
>> � The United Chicken Front may have filed suit ....
>> --
>> Cliff- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>such is life...you ends up with a lot of bow legged chickens suiing
>one
>guy with a big dick.... thats interesting.
What makes you think "big"?
The result of following his advice about something he
knows nothing about for a use he knows nothing about?
--
Cliff
phil scott
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:29:45 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> > the salesmen think the micro
> >library of only
> >1" pipe supplied is a workable library.... duhhh. that has to tell
> >me something...no fittings
> >either.
>
> Did you get it properly installed & find out the way to use?
> --
> Cliff
next monday Im going in to get that sorted out...it seems their
security is heavy and my verizon wireless precludes
downloading the library etc....and that the update tactic the company
was using, thumdrives had left out important code
for down loading... so none of the guys could, they assumed the few
items in the pipe library meant only for the tutorial, were the
entire
library...since none new piping it looked good to them. (it was
about0.01% of whats required...intended just for one tutorial and only
partially at that)
also it seems that there is quite an extensive pipe library that comes
on the distro disc for synch..on the orig disc....none of these were
remotely
aware of. by monday I should be well sorted.
One thing though,
I muddled around and taught myself the basics of making a steel
frame, plate and and sticking my
models to it to create a skid assy in synch... very easy... they dont
teach it that way however, they want you to learn all 40,000 pages
of the complexity at the same time you are learning how to stick a
couple of things together... that hurts most of these software
companies imo. (secret is to start with the plate first, it becomes
the base part that way, not some frame member or the other.., a fatal
mistake in some aspects)
Most of humanity does best learning ONE thing at time (but yes you do
add those up to make a package of skills, but trying to teach the
package instead of its components first is a mistake as I see
it). ..Ive trained a lot of people that way. works like greased
lightening... and i skip all the jargon too. no jargon.
, burning that in with 5 or 10 cycles through it, such as 'draw a
line'...etc.
I went from zero to 3D on acad 14 that way in about two weeks. I
refused to let the guy teach me for instance two ways to draw a line,
or more than how to draw a line...I learned to do a line one way, and
way only, and only one type of line, and one width, etc and not with
any dimension to it. just a line of any sort on the screen.
... then when I had that down pat.... Id learn how do something real
complex like, erase a line... etc...
same with drawing a closed shape. and axis...then doing a revolve. ..
childs play if learned that way,, one at time.... and I got good
fast.
but thats not how its generally taught... I dont think it works as
well as my one at a time approach.
I could teach a complete green horn to slap a skid together from
stock shapes or blocks in less than 20 minutes in the programs I am
looking at now
... the guy teaching me spent 5x that
long trying to insure I knew the proper way the name parts so they
would show up in the parts list print out propertly and be
machineable... refusing to
listen to my protest that you do not need to machine a pump you
buy the damn thing from a vendor in a box.
, among other variations on the theme, despite
my protests that I dont even want to issue a parts list ...f and did
not that distraction while trying to learn assemblies.....
irst interation drawings as I operate are for show only.... enough to
visualize the offering...they never get built that way after all the
changes etc.
we are over that hump now.
If I need to list the pump and boiler model I think I can muddle
though somehow with the text capability.
Acme pump model #14BGH15 ...see. Not rocket science, works
perfectly.
Took less than two seconds.
....
guys like me do best learning only enough basics to get something on a
sheet of paper...we refine our skills later.
it seems common for the CAD company field guys to rely on teaching
the tutorials then say, you learn those then you can do your own
creations from what you learned... My experience its a lot of very
time consuming heartburn that way...for me at least...and Ive seen it
in some others... my obserrvation at least.... ymmv
that has some viability, but mainly it takes too long, and takes a
persons time up
learning about say for instance mold making...when thats not his gig,
nor are the draft and rib issues, and the spread sheet
required etc, and the fact of part shirikage calcs etc.... a person
retains what is of direct value and need for him, he does not
retain things not central to that.
Phil scott
phil scott
'big' was abstracted by noticing all the bow legged chickens.
Cliff
>but thats not how its generally taught... I dont think it works as
>well as my one at a time approach.
Where I think you learn far too little.
In the end you'll end up doing most things the hard
& slow way that way.
Or emitting sharp bleeps of banquerbabble <g>.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>, among other variations on the theme, despite
>my protests that I dont even want to issue a parts list ...f and did
>not that distraction while trying to learn assemblies.....
>
>irst interation drawings as I operate are for show only.... enough to
>visualize the offering...they never get built that way after all the
>changes etc.
Q: Why does it need changes?
A: Bad design practices from the beginning.
Don't throw away all the advantages 3D CAD design gives you !!!
Learn to use it. Make it your friend.
--
Cliff
Cliff
>Phil scott
There's a sometimes poster to AMC that also uses SE for work
that may be similar to yours.
--
Cliff
Cliff
wrote:
> I spend a lot of time on my bog
Cliff
wrote:
>On Jul 8, 9:32 am, phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
>
>> btw, on my own Ive figured out how to do what I need on my current
>> program...it was easy, could have been taught to me in an hour IF the
>> supposed trainers actually knew how to work the software...turns out
>> they knew how to run you through the tutorials but not actuall produce
>> something with the software.... their easy way out...wasted months of
>> my time.
>
>This is a typical scenario, Phil. I spend a lot of time on my bog
Not much at all. It's dead.
>discussing how bad
>CADCAM training
Which you have never had any of.
>and manuals are.
Which you could not read or grasp even if you ever had any.
>I also make it clear who I think is
>delivering quality video training.
The 30 second ad.
>
>> How do I know the vendors reps were clueless? half of what they told
>> me turned out to be false, it was possible to many things in (their
>> new paradigm) that they said were not available yet... these had no
>> clue at all. to them its just normal i suppose.
>
>You need to find someone who is producing independent training for
>Solid Edge with ST and who wants to help you and work with you. When
>it came to what I needed for Mastercam that was Mike Mattera and
>Trevor Bailey of San Diego CADCAM who bent over backwards to help me
And got shafted in return.
>after a rough start between the two of us. I still could use some
>advanced surface training but I don't have the time right now because
>we are so busy at work.
Not doing any surfaces we assume.
>
>> to me its wasting months of my time..... not funny at all...
>> especially as a few of these idiots chose to get snarky about it.
>>
>> Phil scott- Hide quoted text -
>
>Phil, I'm sorry to say this is very much the norm. Here are some
>suggestions for you:
>
>1. Try the Eng-Tips Solid Edge group. Be very careful because it's
>heavily censored and moderated.
IOW Just don't act like a clueless banquer full of BS & hype.
>2. Contact other Solid Edge VAR's that are active on the web and see
>if they have any video training or perhaps classes where they are
>willing to give a money back guarantee.
>
>3. Contact myigetit and ask where the training is for Solid Edge with
>ST.
>
>4. Send me an e-mail and I'll take some time to start digging for
>resources for Solid Edge with ST...
He has holes you see. And likes to later "publish" Emails.
>I want you to be happy simply
>because I feel it's the best choice for you and many others.
Sending you email. Right.
LMAO !!
>Jon Banquer
>San Diego, CA
--
Cliff
Cliff
>that is an often reported failure Ive seen mentioned by others on the
>NG also...and a way many on
>this NG seem to test new vendors...they hand em a problem and say
>solve it with yer software. great
>idea in my book.
Not really.
These things are general-purpose tools.
They can teach you some about how to use them but never
expect them to be in YOUR business.
A few might have been at one time but .... that's not the
point of learning how to use.
PS: A few were actually teachers too. There may be method
to what you think is madness ("I don't need to know that!")
--
Cliff
Cliff
He probably had some confusion ..... (as usual).
http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/rubber_chicken.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1ATnOmiGPsQ/RkqAEqw65zI/AAAAAAAAAQM/qrXKzaV09LU/s400/sex+doll+1.jpg
--
Cliff
phil scott
> --
> Cliff- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
err...cliff...you are both entirely correct and entirely mistaken in
the same sentence...and on the same single issue.
its like this.... if starting my way was continued and never gotten
past....yes its the slow hard way to work. What you left out is
parsing
the words related to sequence and *starting with one thing at a time,
then adding the rest as you get better at the basics...you left that
aspect
out. I do not of course.
after I learn or teach as the case may be the basic rudiments.. in
single file so to speak......and that is an accomplished skill set,
*then* and only then do
I add in the complexities of more than one way to a thing, and ad-ins
such as making parametric drawings etc.
still though one at time.
***
this short story may help... You can be teaching a person to
drive..... and as they are turning the very first corner in their
lives, using their hands and arms....you can help by inserting yer leg
though the steering wheel...... while pointing out helpfully that you
can even steer with your leg if you want.
I do one isolated, most basic of basic thing at a time....I seek out
the most basic and focus on that.
In my career, (Im 68 now not as active as in the past), I was
retained to solve problems a lot... I always began at the sub basement
level basics or lower, into the underlying rock you might say.
That was successful when sometimes others were not, because these
tended to start many layers up, say a building collapsed, they began
looking at the steel...etc. often with no resolution. When the
problem was in the liquification of the ground, or lateral movement of
earthquakes in the area, and lack of foundation system that allowed
the building to remain stationary, as the ground moved laterally
beneath it.
what you might call beneath the basic underpinnings of the problem,
and in many cases beyond the scope of work that anyone was hired for.
Yet by looking for the most underlying basic of basics, you can
discover those issues and resolve such a problem in minutes with
solutions that once seen are entirely obvious to anyone.
***
same with training... I find that getting the sub sub basics drilled
in ONE isolated step at a time. a person climbs the entire set of
stairs much like a 3 year old, in about 5 seconds.
thats my experrience ..... ymmv of course.
Phil scott
phil scott
I make my money on high end prototype sorts of projects...working and
functional, but one of a kind that
generally see more than a few serious revisions during and after
construction in the commissioning phase.
so that I design such flexibility into the skid...for instance suppors
laid out so I can stack pumps etc.
and controls of course all on dinn rails, and using PLC's I can just
clip out if necessary, or add relays
along side if necessary.
Often though you are corrrect. and I do work that way also. But in
my change to the new software
I am sacrificing the fancy details in order to get some pretty
pictures out and the work sold... I have absolutely
no intention of not adding in better control as time permits etc.
although, in some cases, if two parts are involved, say a turbo
expander, direct coupled to a generator... Im
just going to type those in, and refer to their attached 40 page
specs. for now at least.
Phil scott
phil scott
> On Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer <jon_banq...@yahoo.com>
cliff, your learning attention span may be longer than mine and JB's
for instance...so you can read a manual section, absorb all
5 or 10 steps... and the caveats... remember them, then go the
keyboard and impliment.
I think thats rare, not entirely rare, but rare...but if you find
that works for you that
attests to some fine brain function imo.
I however have had a rough enough time in life that my brain function
is suffering, even before all the flat tracking accidents, brawls,
broken bones
and horney trophy girl events... I, and from what I can tell, JB
and a small army of others, need to do one thing at time while in the
first stages of learning.... later after we are groved in, **then***
we can read 10 items at a time and relate to all 10..... but not while
learing the first item.... that leaves no context for the next 10...
at least not a context that we have practiced, burned in and
understand.
those are important distinctions imo.
We need to be shown that, not told at the
same time on cold turkey new material.... drill DOING it..... then and
only then, after we have our brains formatted can we handle all the
side notes,
theory and 40 dozen caveats, and 96 other ways of doing it.
So thats US.... you are different, and Im sure others are also...
but thats where I am coming from and I suspect JB is coming from, and
thats what I experience in training others in my own areas.
Example:
its like a guy *hates fish and *peanuts cause him fatal levels of
alergic reaction.... so he hires a cooking coach who insists that if
he learns to cook fish with peanut sauce he can do ANYTHING....
doesnt work that way for most of us....we will patently almost refuse
to cook fish and peanut sauce if thats not our gig.... again Our
mileage varies. and its not a *choice we have. thats how many
peoples **brains woik.
Mine woiks that way.... and its shown over the years not to be a
liability, but a serious asset in many ways as Ive mentioned with some
forensic engineering examples.
***
Companies for understandable reasons seek to automate the learning
process..
we get the long lessons, manuals etc from companies or interests who
want to automate the teaching process also
vitally needed as a **** reference manual.... but not for a good
percentage of us that learn as Ive been discussing.
Phil scott
Cliff
>still though one at time.
>
>
>***
>
>this short story may help... You can be teaching a person to
>drive....
The $$ instructor $$ only has so much time.
--
Cliff
phil scott
> On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 12:08:39 -0700 (PDT), phil scott <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >still though one at time.
>
> >***
>
> >this short story may help... You can be teaching a person to
> >drive....
>
> The $$ instructor $$ only has so much time.
> --
> Cliff
that is entirely correct and a core issue when it comes to
training....
even that way though
teaching one thing at time works best for me.... it can be done on the
phone as well.. I figure if I
just learned ONE thing a day, in a year I have learned 365 separate
things. those combine to
a pretty decent capability... and I can do that in 5 minutes a day if
I do it right.
I learned 3D CAD from my CAD draftsman when I was at Texas Instruments
(dallas). he was getting 17 dollars ah hour
then, had 4 kids, and half starved... this was in 1996 or so.
The deal I cut with him was 'you teach me CAD to the 3D level my way,
and I will show you how to double your income"
So in two weeks I was doing 3D CAD.... that took him about 10 minutes
a day to teach me one thing at a time... and Id bogg a lot and
call him over to debug me... things like the screen would go
black...he's show me how to scroll that sucker back so my lines would
show.
:)
in that time frame I showed him that CAD guys and engineers did not
get hired for what they knew, but by how studly they dressed in the
exact
right kind of clothing.
In Dallas that was an 80 dollar super heavy cotton one color bull
rider shirts, for cad and tech types (dockers, and finer shirts for
management)..and it absolutley had to be at least 1.5 or 2 sizes too
big, and it **had to be starched stiffer than a board... this was not
optional. and you had to wear levi's under it, shrunk to fit
tight, then with either 150 dollar loafers (nothing cheaper) or worn,
but plain leather cowboy boots. ....and either no watch at all, or a
damn fine watch.
I made him throw his absolutely moldy timex watch away. This guy
had bad teeth also, not particularly rotted, but some...and all
crooked as hell he looked like was chewing a mouth full of rocks......
my advice to him, he could suffer that if he dressed like I told him,
got 40 dollar hair cuts so he looked like management... and adopted a
slightly arrogant attitude...and did some things with is cad drawings.
So he was with me for the next few months, practicing his dress style,
behavior and doing CAD my way... ISO's at the time with heavy poly
lines in various widths for different size pipe... he began to get
good reviews and better assignments.
I told him that to get the 35 bucks however he'd have to move
on ..... since TI already had seen him in is earlier incarnation, old,
worn, cheap, thin cotton shirts with the buttons spreading around his
gut... and slighlty too big pair of walmart denim pants....
After the changes and two weeks later ....he had a job for 35 dollars
an hour... I told him that we get hired by the thickness of the cotton
in our shirts not on our skill sets....only the slightest of
exagerations.
.....he looked me up about 5 years later to thank me again. and I
thanked him also.
Phil scott