Do any landscapers use rare and unusual plants?
dedeu...@my-deja.com
I am a new poster in this ng. I was wondering something about the landscaping
industry that I finally decided to ask:
In the construction boom going on now in California, it is obvious that the
landscape contractors doing many (or even most) of the projects generally
seem to use the same, relatively-limited, pallette of choices for ornamental
landscapes. The same repertory of plants are used over and over and over,
even in very top-of-the-market developments. The result is not appealing to
my tastes, but I might be unique in disliking uniformity. I realize
Mac-Landscaping is cheap and results in better profit margins, but not
everything out of the ordinary is exorbitantly priced to the contractor.
My question is this: Do any landscape contractors or creative minds in
California make their mark by designing landscapes with rare or unusual
plants? If so, what are their names, and where are they located, and how do I
contact them?
If anyone wants to reply to me privately, in addition to open posting in this
ng, please feel free to do so at: dedeutschh@my- deja.com.
Thanks in advance!
Dave D.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Starbuck
landscape contractor for design, just as I'd recommend a surgeon rather than
a butcher for brain surgery.
Nearly any landscape architect can respond to a specific request to use
unusual plants in the design pallette. There are many advantages to using
commonly available plants:
1. They are widely available on the market. It takes time and money to
look around.
2. All bidders who are bidding competitively against each other know the
costs without special research. It's embarrassing and costly to put plants
on a plan, only to have a contractor call up and say that he's looked in all
of the nurserys in three states and can't find a single plant of that type
for sale.
3. They can be located and shipped without additional work. Special plants
might take additional trips to more distant growers.
4. Pests and disease problems are well known to maintenance personnel.
5. They usually happen to be the plants that will thrive and be most
dependable in that region.
6. Most designers like to be able to predict what there plan will look like
in the future, which means using the plants that they are most familiar
with.
7. Growers plant the plants that they are confidant that they will be able
to sell to someone 3-5 years into the future. Otherwise they would have to
discard their investment. This limits the market diversity.
There are many other reasons for lack of diversity, most of which can be
boiled down to financial considerations.
However, if you are sincerely looking for an unusual design, then any good
designer can select a unique pallette (perhaps for an small additional fee).
dedeu...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7vn559$61u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
àV
I do so enjoy your responses.
C. McNab
Starbuck <pmdla...@xearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7vnn1u$7ko$5...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
dedeu...@my-deja.com
Thanks for replying! Per your quite valid recommendation that I consult a
landscape architect rather than a contractor, I'll rephrase my question
accordingly:
Can you or anyone recommend a list of California landscape architects that
have a track-record for using things other than the boring, trite, over-used
plant materials almost uniformly seen in every landscape job across
California?
Regarding the rest of your reply, you make a number of thoughtful arguments
in favor of uniformity of landscape materials, and having read your comments
I reluctantly still feel unconvinced. Although, your thoughts are
well-considered, in my view they reflect self-fulfilling prophesies:
> 1. They [common plants] are widely available on the market. It takes time and money to
> look around.
They are only widely available because everyone buys them out of habit. If
the landscape industry asked for variety, variety would be made available. It
does take time and money to hunt for something other than queen palms and
Rhaphiolepis, unless the landscape architect in question is worth her/his
salt and has (or develops) the necessary professional familiarity with the
wide offerings the varied nurseries the state of California have to offer. It
is the job of the landscape architect to have the necessary market
familiarity, and indeed the consumer should have the right to expect the
architect to know where to find the necessary raw materials. Lacking or
failing to develop reasonable market familiarity with sales sources for
varied plant materials by the architect, is akin (in my view) to to a chef at
an expensive restaurant knowing only where to find butter, salt and cooking
utensils. Regardless of the inventiveness of the chef in coming up with new
variations on a theme, you still end up with an expensive meal of butter and
salt.
> 2. All bidders who are bidding competitively against each other know the
> costs without special research. It's embarrassing and costly to put plants
> on a plan, only to have a contractor call up and say that he's looked in all
> of the nurserys in three states and can't find a single plant of that type
> for sale.
Again, in my honest opinion, the architect's botanical and market familiarity
should be such that she/he would know where and whether such a plant(s)
is/are available before contacting the contractor. Moreover, lack of
knowledge is easily remedied by consulting texts which assist in the location
of unusual items, and over time and with experience the architect can or
should gain a familiarity with who carries what. So the embarrassment and
cost unpredictability might be avoided accordingly.
> 3. They can be located and shipped without additional work. Special plants
> might take additional trips to more distant growers.
By this analysis, structural architects would never use italian marble, or
German plumbing, or any product that has to be brought in more than 100
miles. And granted, the more exotic materials are more costly, and perhaps
not for use in bus stations or sewage treatment plants, but there is a large
private market for them, enough so that they are part of the palette being
offered to the public.
> 4. Pests and disease problems are well known to maintenance personnel.
> 5. They usually happen to be the plants that will thrive and be most
> dependable in that region.
Many botanic gardens and some nurseries have introduced new species and even
genera into cultivation over the years, can therefore supply extensive
cultural background on their performance, and can demonstrate the extent to
which those plants can meet or exceed the cultural expectations of the
current limited list of commonly-utilized plants. Yet the industry appears to
refuse to even consider, or at the very least, resists considering, the use
of much or most of the newer material that has increasingly become available.
Moreover, in the not-too-distant-past and even the present, landscapers have
used plants that have a less-than-sterling track record for
disease-resistance or other performance considerations: Monterey Pines,
Grevillea robusta, Schinus molle, and others.
> 6. Most designers like to be able to predict what there plan will look like
> in the future, which means using the plants that they are most familiar
> with.
This sounds as if they are only familiar with a limited palette because they
refuse to expand their knowledge and repertory, feeling complacent with a
smaller, rather than larger, scope of knowledge. Medical doctors and lawyers
are obligated to continue expanding their frames of reference and continue to
explore newer and different ways of doing things. Would it be right for a
doctor to only bother prescribing the same drug for decades, regardless of
whether a superior product became available years ago, merely because she/he
is "able to predict what" the older product does, or because the product is
the one she/he is "most familiar with"? Why is it so wrong to expect the
landscape designer to expand what they know?
> 7. Growers plant the plants that they are confidant that they will be able
> to sell to someone 3-5 years into the future. Otherwise they would have to
> discard their investment. This limits the market diversity.
There is enormous diversity of suppliers in the State of California. Your
statement assumes that the market is not diverse, which is not the case. Ask
any gardening hobbyist. One only need look for what one wants and there is a
very reasonable chance it might be found. Granted, every single species on on
the face of the earth may not be available in California, but what is
actually out there overwhelmingly exceeds the limited variety the industry
seems intent on using.
Oh well, I've said my piece and rephrased my question in favor of my search
for recommendations of landscape architects/designers, rather than
contractors.
Anyhow, I should reiterate my thanks for your reply, and emphasize that I am
not trying to nay say your viewpoints, which were thoughtfully made . . .
it's just that I'm not convinced that a small, predictable plant repertory in
the industry is a necessary, unchangeable and foregone conclusion.
Kind regards,
David D.
Starbuck
Gplant3744
>
>Oh well, I've said my piece and rephrased my question in favor of my search
>for recommendations of landscape architects/designers, rather than
>contractors.
Pick an architect thats been around for awhile if you go that route.They only
get 1 to 2 quarters in plant ID in school and I have found that many Don't know
their plants as well as the should.( I'm both a grower and a contractor on the
other side of the States) I'm sure there are many unusuals that both grow and
can be had locally. Try your area extension service for recomendations.
Good luck in your Quest!
Gary
Starbuck
about 10 or 12, worked my way through college in the nursery industry, I
would say that it still took me 10 years after I was out of school to turn
out what I consider to be a reasonably good landscape design on a regular
basis.
A degree (and even license) as a Landscape Architect is no guarantee that
one knows what they are doing. I look at an LA license as evidence of a
level of minimal competency. At least we know something, but maybe not
enough.
Gplant3744 wrote in message
<19991103204224...@ngol05.aol.com>...
>In article <7vqd5r$ijd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dedeu...@my-deja.com writes:
>
>>
>>Oh well, I've said my piece and rephrased my question in favor of my
search
>>for recommendations of landscape architects/designers, rather than
>>contractors.
>
Starbuck
statement. Yes, I am certain that there are California Landscape Architects
who prefer to use unique plants in their designs, and would be most
responsive in meeting your needs. I'm in Florida, so I'm not personally
aquainted with whom that might be. You might start with the yellow pages
and start calling LA offices, nursery growers, contractors and so forth.
Also you might search the ASLA roster at www.asla.com
My comments are intended to offer information, and not to justify the
current situation of overuse of only a few selected species. I agree with
you that the industry needs more diversity. I was simply trying to explain
why it isn't there. It is true that plants are not specified because they
aren't on the market, and the plants don't go into the marketplace because
growers have a concern that they will be unable to sell them because they
aren't specified.
The nursery industry, like any other industry, operates according to supply
and demand. Accurate calculation of future demand is even more critical
because plants (unlike dead building materials or industrial products)
cannot be stored for extended periods of time. They need constant care,
water, sunlight and so forth... and continue to grow. This requires that
they must either be moved into larger containers (an expense) or else
trashed, within a given time frame.
With that same intention, be aware that many landscape architects are
involved in a career that doesn't even include planting design. Many do
community planning, golf course design, land or site planning, code writing,
and so forth. Some do planting design as an minor part of their practice,
while others of us do extensive planting design.
Over the years standard proceedures in the construction industry have
evolved. One of those proceedures is that the architect (or landscape
architect) is responsible for specifying materials, but obtaining the
materials (knowing the sources of supply) is the responsibility not of the
designer, but of the contractor. Generally the Designer is responsible for
determining the client needs and desires, and translating that into contract
documents that can be competitively bid by using the body of knowledge
gained through professional training and experience. He is responsible for
the budget, design intent, compliance with laws, site safety, conformance
with accepted industry standards, and ensuring quality control of the
contractor's work.
The Contractor is responsible for following the plans, for project schedule,
means, equipment, providing materials, labor supervision, and so forth. The
Landscape Architect (due to professional state licensing laws) has a higher
fiduciary responsibility to the owner than does a contractor. He is there
to PRIMARILY to watch out for your own best interests, and to be in service
to the profession and industry standards. The contractor's PRIMARY
interest is to generate a profit for his business. That isn't to say that a
design office can operate without making a profit, or that contractors don't
follow standards. It's simply that the primary motivations differ.
There may be a 1 month to 3 year lag time from when a design is developed to
when it is implemented. I've had commercial projects break ground literally
while I was drawing the plans, and I've had projects put on hold because of
unforeseen reasons (corporate cash flow, fiscal year budget rules, ownership
transitions, available financing, etc.) for months or years.
If I need 2,000 plants of a certain type, and there are three nurserys in
the state (with a total of 892 plants, at three differant stages of growth)
then there isn't much point in putting that species on a commercial plan.
This happens with such frequency that it might surprise you.
On the other hand, there's no reason to make a habit of using ONLY readily
available plants, when other more unique plants are available.
Plant availablity and sizes vary from month to month, and from year to year.
If we are talking about a single family residence and only six plants are
needed then there is more opportunity for expression and creativity, and
more opportunity to use unique plants. Sure one can look around for more
interesting alternatives.
dedeu...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7vqd5r$ijd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Maureen
<pmdla...@xearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>A degree (and even license) as a Landscape Architect is no guarantee that
>one knows what they are doing. I look at an LA license as evidence of a
>level of minimal competency. At least we know something, but maybe not
>enough.
Ok, Starbuck, now I'm with you. After bristling a bit at your earlier
comparison, Landscape Architect (artist) vs. Landscape Contractor
(butcher); I can see that you've given this a great deal of thought. I
wish to point out, however, that there are also many experienced Garden
Designers who specialize in the use of unusual plants and indeed are
called in to fill out planting plans by cleints who are pleased with the
hardscaping and larger architectural design work done by LA's, but want
something more special in their planting plans. I therefore encourage
David D. to seek out designers, as well.
As a student of Garden Design after having cut my teeth as a maintenance
gardener and horticulturist in public and estate gardens for the last ten
years, I agree with you that it takes many years of experience to
regularly turn out excellent planting plans, and I hope to reach that
point some day. However, I feel quite confident that my experience gives
me a better handle on how plants perform in gardens long after the LA or
GD has moved on to other projects.
You would not believe the number of odd maintenance problems presented by
wildly creative, gorgeous, ultimately horticulturally flawed and thus
doomed designs. Particularly when using unusual plant material, Landscape
Architects and Designers have a responsibility to the client, and to the
garden, to include a logical, concise maintenance plant with their design.
Well, those are my 2 cents for now. Best wishes to all.
Maureen
dedeu...@my-deja.com
mo...@xelph.com (Maureen) wrote:
> In article <7vsl54$3va$5...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Starbuck"
> <pmdla...@xearthlink.net> wrote:
[. . .]
> I wish to point out, however, that there are also many experienced Garden
> Designers who specialize in the use of unusual plants and indeed are
> called in to fill out planting plans by cleints who are pleased with the
> hardscaping and larger architectural design work done by LA's, but want
> something more special in their planting plans. I therefore encourage
> David D. to seek out designers, as well.
[. . .]
> Maureen
Hi Maureen!
Thanks for your 2 cents worth. This thread is certainly an education for me,
and thanks should also go to Starbuck and Gplant for their comments.
It seems to me that two issues exist in this thread which have not been
answered for me, in spite of all the information that has been provided:
1.) How to go about finding the Garden Designers/LA's who have experience
with the more unusual horticultural materials, without having to go through
hundreds of mundane-design people. I was hoping that others in this ng would
have recommendations or suggestions but it seems either no one here is from
California, or is willing to (or perhaps actually has) a recommendation for
either a Designer or an LA.
2.) Starbuck raised the issue of reliable supply or procurement of the rarer
or more unusual materials. My question on this aspect is the following: How
does the grower/supplier of the rare/unusual communicate price and
availability to the designer/LA community without a mass mailing. Or does it
work the other way around: i.e. the designers/LA's troll through the
nurseries looking for what they want?
Cheers,
Starbuck
There's room enough for everybody.
:-)
Maureen wrote in message ...
>In article <7vsl54$3va$5...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Starbuck"
><pmdla...@xearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>A degree (and even license) as a Landscape Architect is no guarantee that
>>one knows what they are doing. I look at an LA license as evidence of a
>>level of minimal competency. At least we know something, but maybe not
>>enough.
>
>Ok, Starbuck, now I'm with you. After bristling a bit at your earlier
>comparison, Landscape Architect (artist) vs. Landscape Contractor
>(butcher); I can see that you've given this a great deal of thought. I
>wish to point out, however, that there are also many experienced Garden
>Designers who specialize in the use of unusual plants and indeed are
>called in to fill out planting plans by cleints who are pleased with the
>hardscaping and larger architectural design work done by LA's, but want
>something more special in their planting plans. I therefore encourage
>David D. to seek out designers, as well.
>
Starbuck
It's often a no win situation. I've had contractors do 5 consecutive
projects with great success, and then utterly fail on the sixth due to time
constraints, weather conditions, change of personnel, etc. It's a toss of
the dice. For me an eyeball to eyeball personal interview AT THE TIME WHEN
THEY ARE ACTUALLY NEEDED is worth more than 5 recommendations. A lot of
success on a design project is due to personality mesh, (i.e. "chemistry")
and communication, and my personality simply isn't the same as yours.
Frankly, I don't do work for anyone that I haven't work with previously. I
turn away most prospects that come to the office, even some that I've work
successfully with in the past. So finding someone cold might be a problem
for you. I make more than enough new contacts is the daily routine to
business, and through referrals, to stay more than busy. I'd suggest
developing a relationship through personal contact through casual social
situations (church, civic clubs, local plant societies, volunteering at a
local horticultural garden, join an environmental club, and so forth). I've
had some successful relationships bud through that kind of contact.
Problems on projects arise more frequently with clients that don't know me
from Adam, than from clients that I'd had a previous social relationship
with.
2) I receive a mass mailing or two nearly every day, subscribe to several
"plantfinder" services, attend a couple of trade shows a year, and subscribe
to numerous nursery trade publications (often for free, fortunately) that
often have feature articles on unusual or new cultivars and plants, and
listen to growers and contractors on the job or in the office. I look at
new projects when driving down the road, alert for new plants, and also
regularly visit gardens, parks, and so forth. Most Landscape Architects
involved in planting design do the same.
dedeu...@my-deja.com wrote in message <809abp$tgm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <mogo-08119...@sji-ca6-114.ix.netcom.com>,
> mo...@xelph.com (Maureen) wrote:
>> In article <7vsl54$3va$5...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Starbuck"
>> <pmdla...@xearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>[. . .]
>
>> I wish to point out, however, that there are also many experienced Garden
>> Designers who specialize in the use of unusual plants and indeed are
>> called in to fill out planting plans by cleints who are pleased with the
>> hardscaping and larger architectural design work done by LA's, but want
>> something more special in their planting plans. I therefore encourage
>> David D. to seek out designers, as well.
>
>[. . .]
>
>> Maureen
>
>
>
>Hi Maureen!
>
>
>Thanks for your 2 cents worth. This thread is certainly an education for
me,
>and thanks should also go to Starbuck and Gplant for their comments.
>
>It seems to me that two issues exist in this thread which have not been
>answered for me, in spite of all the information that has been provided:
>
>1.) How to go about finding the Garden Designers/LA's who have experience
>with the more unusual horticultural materials, without having to go through
>hundreds of mundane-design people. I was hoping that others in this ng
would
>have recommendations or suggestions but it seems either no one here is from
>California, or is willing to (or perhaps actually has) a recommendation for
>either a Designer or an LA.
>
>2.) Starbuck raised the issue of reliable supply or procurement of the
rarer
>or more unusual materials. My question on this aspect is the following: How
>does the grower/supplier of the rare/unusual communicate price and
>availability to the designer/LA community without a mass mailing. Or does
it
>work the other way around: i.e. the designers/LA's troll through the
>nurseries looking for what they want?
>
>Cheers,
>
>
Gplant3744
>My question on this aspect is the following: How
>does the grower/supplier of the rare/unusual communicate price and
>availability to the designer/LA community without a mass mailing. Or does it
>work the other way around: i.e. the designers/LA's troll through the
>nurseries looking for what they want?
Designers/LA's worth their salt know where to find unusuals that will do well
in your situation. Why? Because they love plants and seek out info on them at
trade shows,nurseries they visit, and by paying attention to quality designs
executed in their area. So to answer your question it works both ways.We are
sent some and we seek some out.
Hope this helps