Re: "Paint On" Insulation.
butch burton
a web search - search on the name of the company flogging the product -
sounds like snake oil to me.
m Ransley
tried it on a heating duct and felt no difference on a A B test and my
IR thermometer registered none. A friend of mine at perhaps the largest
US paint co said they were researching it to sell it, well years later
they still dont. No R yes it has NO R value, maybe it has a bit of
Radiant value like aluminum foil, but I have seen no independant
verified test, So id say it is little value, Trac enclosed Cellular
Shades and insulating curtains or liners are a better proven place to
help a rooms R value.
chickenwing
chickenwing wrote:
This is Nasa talking about building a rocket
...rocket which is wrapped with insulating
tape and painted with an insulating paint.
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/digidoc/report/rm/28/NACA-RM-L56E28.PDF
aha! so there is an insulating paint, or at least they call it that.
butch burton
are set up - testimonials are a big deal - one was even located near
Kennedy Space Center - FL is a fav place for rip off artists - laws
make it tough to get judgements against people in that state - why did
OJ move to FL - to play golf - no to avoid paying everything he owed in
the murder case judgment settlement.
Once saw the history of one of the big snake oil guru's - think slick
50 was his last one - boy did that guy have a past - made tons of
money. White belt/shoes and cranberry colored polyester pants/shirt -
is he a snake oil salesman or a preacher - he preaches only on Sunday -
Praise The Lord and Pass The Loot. Oh ain't life so much fun.
Phil Scott
"chickenwing" <bigba...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1133995620.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation.
>
> The company will not give her an R rating, doesn't seem to
> be much info
> readily available.
>
> They use it many places, and yes, any paint will improve the
> R rating
> (a decent paint)...
>
> What do you think.
>
> Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint)
its a scam
but yes, any paint provides some insulation.. this crap mabye
a bit more than usual, not enough to be worth the expense
though.
If something needs to be insulated it is usually at least 100x
as much such a coating provides.
if its to 'insulate' against solar radiation, white or silver
reflective paint is worth it.
Phil Scott
>
Al Bundy
news:1133995620.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> A friend of mine is researching a paint on insulation.
>
> The company will not give her an R rating, doesn't seem to be much info
> readily available.
>
> They use it many places, and yes, any paint will improve the R rating
> (a decent paint)...
>
> What do you think.
>
> Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint)
>
> The company will not give her an R rating
It's insullation but they won't give an R value. Can anything but scam
possibly come to mind?
Technically a piece of tissue paper "will improve the R rating". Better
have a calculator with lotsa decimal places though. Words like "helps",
"can", "can help", "may", "improve", etc are what I call marketing weasel
words and are done in a way that you mind hears "will". Weasel words and
phrases are lawsuit "outs" because they can't be quantified.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
into the astec systems? check out
http://www.icc-astec.com/Industrial/astec_app8.htm?type=indus or
http://www.icc-astec.com/Walls/astec7.htm?type=walls.
clintonG
resistance I wonder who in this news article can explain the physics of
thermal conductivity? It is thermal conductivity that is the fundamental
principle from which the R-Value is derived. Any value over 0 does in fact
indicate desireable results.
The objective of course is achieving a measurable value that would by
consensus be considered meaningful but one must agree that in most cases
those that claim a coating has insulating properties is like a farmer
claiming his bull has tits.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"chickenwing" <bigba...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1134052003.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> ahumanbe...@msn.com wrote:
>
>> http://www.icc-astec.com/Industrial/astec_app8.htm?type=indus or
>> http://www.icc-astec.com/Walls/astec7.htm?type=walls.
>
> I just sent them an email, asking them about an R rating.
> and invited them to post something here about this.
> I told them, some people call paint on insulation "snake oil".
>
> I love it!
>
butch burton
hog". Think that sums up the worth of insulating paint.
P. Fritz
"butch burton" <spac...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1134084652.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> An old country expression of mine is, "As useless as tits on a boar
> hog". Think that sums up the worth of insulating paint.
>
It depends on what the insulation is for.
Intumescent (sp?) paint has great thermal properties under certain
conditions. :-)
m Ransley
advertise or duct work, I tried it.
P. Fritz
"m Ransley" <ran...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11598-439...@storefull-3132.bay.webtv.net...
> What condition does insulating paint work, surely not what they
> advertise or duct work, I tried it.
>
Intumescent paint is a very specialized product. When heated to the right
temperature, it expands and acts as a thermal insulator from
fire........used to protect steel, but retain the look of a bare structure.
m Ransley
sell it as paint nor will Sherwin Williams market it as a way to save on
utilities. But it may have Radiant qualities like aluminum foil but I
cant test it
chickenwing
m Ransley wrote:
> But it may have Radiant qualities like aluminum foil but I
> cant test it
yeah, it would take a calculator to see how much energy you saved.
I think the problem with paint insulation, there is no interm space to
slow down the transfer of energy. The paint sticks right to the thing
being insulated.
bu11d09
Lets talk about R-values for a moment. R-value is the measurement
of how effectively a material resists the transfer of heat via
conduction. The higher the R-value, the less heat transfer can take
place. Insulating paints/coatings do not work via conduction -they are
typically classified as radiation control coatings because of thier
ability to radiate heat away from thier surfaces. Most are using
borsillicate ceramic particles to achieve this ability.Does ceramic
work to radiate heat away from a surface? Yes- example -ceramic tiles
under space shuttles. Interesting fact- The ceramic's rate of
radiation increases significantly as the amount of radiation that is
directed at them increases.
Heat travels three ways- conduction - like when you pick up a
hot pan. Convection-air movement -like forced air gas heat furnaces and
radiation- like the sun. When you walk behind a tree on a sunny day it
feels cooler, but the ambient air temperture has not changed.
R-values have become the standard when discussing insulation
because most insulation companies manufacture materials that are
effective in slowing down heat transfer. Great for insulating your
houses in the winter. Not so great for cooling in the summer ,because
the heat coming into the house is stored in the mass insulation and
released-usually at night. Ever go into an attic on a summer night?
It's pretty hot.
Do insulating paints have a place in residential homes? Yes- but
the more objects radiating heat the better the paints will perform. In
other words if you paint an empty roof with a radiation control coating
it won't be very effective. Now fill the room with furniture and people
all radiating heat and now the walls have something to reflect back
into the room. This effect would be equal IN PERFORMENCE to other
insulation materials having known R-values of 5 to possiblly R-9.
Because these paints are more than regular paints, I would paint
outside walls and second story ceilings first, To test if you have the
"real deal" clean and paint a run of hot air duct work. After it dries
compare it in temperature with a run of uncoated duct work. Does it
feel cooler? If you have the 'real deal" it will. By the way this
little demonstration has another benefit- more hot air is comming out
the other end of the run and not radiating off the duct ork.w
The most effective use of radiation control coatings is not in
the residential home market. Rather it is in the commercial/industrial
roofing market. Most commercial roofs are large black heat magnets that
bake and crack in the sun and cause Air conditioning units to work like
crazy. Have you ever heard of an electrical brown-out in the winter?
Now - if could cool the roof by protecting it with a white reflective
radiation control coating that would stand up to the elements and use
it as part of a system that would stop leaks, you would really have
something. Which, by the way, we do. Go to www.icc-astec.com to learn
more about this great 10 year warrantied roof system.
Most home owners are probably asking "Why can't I put this stuff
on MY asphalt shingle roof?" 1) Would you actually consider PAINTING
your roof, all on color, white? - normal answer- NO. 2) Asphalt
shingles tend to absorb a tremendous amount of paint- translation- it
will cost as much to paint the roof as to replace the roof.3) Why
isn't this true on commericial roofs? They are not usually made of
asphalt shingles. 4 ) Roofers don't do this kind of work. 5) It is
dangerous to paint a pitched surface- you will slip and fall off the
roof.
.
chickenwing
bu11d09 wrote:
> Hi-
> Lets talk about R-values for a moment. R-value is the measurement
> of how effectively a material resists the transfer of heat via
> conduction. The higher the R-value, the less heat transfer can take
> asphalt shingles. 4 ) Roofers don't do this kind of work. 5) It is
> dangerous to paint a pitched surface- you will slip and fall off the
> roof.
I also wanted to see if you have heard of nano-tech paint? seems like
my dear lady friend ran across this when searching for this paint....do
the nano's paint themselves onto a wall?
damn the insullation properties, I'd pay good for paint that spread
itself
bu1...@gmail.com
borosilicate. It can be tinted, but dark colors are not a good idea
because they " work against" the ceramic. Meaning the surface will
not radiate or emit as much heat away.
Costs - The product sells for $36.00 per gallon and is sold in
5-gallon containers. ($180.00)
I have never heard of nano-paint so I cannot comment on it.
IMPORTANT - ICC MARKETS ITS' PRODUCTS AND SYSTEMS ALMOST
EXCLUSIVELY TO THE COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL SEGMENT OF THE MARKET.
ALTHOUGH INTERIOR RESIDENTIAL APPLICATIONS HAVE BEEN DONE, THEY ACCOUNT
FOR AN EXTREMELY SMALL PORTION OF ICC'S BUSINESS. ICC PRODUCTS ARE
APPLIED BY AUTHORIZED APPLICATORS. THESE APPLICATORS ARE TYPICALLY
COMMERCIAL/INDUSTRIAL CONTRACTING FIRMS WHO DO NOT CATER TO THE
RESIDENTIAL MARKET.
bu1...@gmail.com
We prefer to cater to the professional whose livelyhood depends on
making sound, fact based decisions. Some one who checks out references,
has an idea of what ISO certification means. Has some knowledge of
Cool Roofs and understands emmisivity. So far we have done over
300,000,000 square feet of application, but we have only been at it
for 20 years.
m Ransley
difference was felt or measured using an IR thermometer to an unpainted
adjacent section, and yes I have the " Real Deal" So does it work, well
show me a verifiable independant labs test, one I can contact. Sure the
space shuttle, and how thick are those tiles? We are talking about paint
here. And I put it on heavy in latex double coat.
chickenwing
m Ransley wrote:
> I did just that, painted tiles? We are talking about paint
> here. And I put it on heavy in latex double coat.
what type of heat was you using
no difference...hmmm
not to mention, the paint you had on there, maybe it was a nice
paint that also reflected heat
maybe you measured that wall when the sun was on the exterior
but you checked the radiant paint at night...
I would think you should get at least 2 degree difference.
2 lousy degrees
JerryD(upstateNY)
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
"chickenwing" <bigba...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1134163937.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
300,000,000 SF...need any salesman? How much do get per sq.
clintonG
on a thermostat and cost a couple hundred bucks in winter heating cost. If
the cost of the coating does not offset the difference in utility costs its
a worthy pursuit ainna?
<%= Clinton Gallagher
"chickenwing" <bigba...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1134164274....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
clintonG
working ;-)
<%= Clinton Gallagher
"chickenwing" <bigba...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1134165580.2...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> JerryD(upstateNY) wrote:
>> That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years.
>
> RFLMAO
>
> They must paint it on roofs, crop dusting style
>
clintonG
much easier.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
<bu1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134159092....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
m Ransley
refrences, It is a 3M product probably purchased for 1/100 th the cost
from 3M. Yea BS commercial customers, you would sell it to your dog if
he would pay, beggar. Your talk is unsubstantited crappolaa, snake oil.
Put up or shut up.
m Ransley
because of the Ceramic additive causes separation of paint and affects
bonding , the paint is diluted-reduced in film strength.
m Ransley
painter that moves a roller and doesnt hopefully work to drunk, and what
would you care who applies it, you dont, you just push it through BS
ahumanbe...@msn.com
chickenwing wrote:
> JerryD(upstateNY) wrote:
> > That's over 57,000 sq. ft. per working day for 20 years.
>
>
> They must paint it on roofs, crop dusting style
Actually it is done through contractors across the country so when you
have the product being applied by a lot of people then the number is
very realistic. Look into any of the coating manufactureres and you can
see typical results. Or look into how many square feet of shingles goes
down every day and it is very possible depending on the number of peopl
eusing the product.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
show a history of professional work.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
the testing done: http://www.icc-astec.com/testing12.htm?type=asphalt
and as you can see it has been tested by Christian Testing, the US
Dept. of the Air Force, TRW, and PRI.
So I think that covers putting up, I also believe there are plenty of
references available as well. Why are you slamming a product you don't
know anything about? Is it coatings in general that bother you?
ahumanbe...@msn.com
for verifiable tests when you researched your purchase?
Anyway I can't see how you can say everything out there is bad, just
because you had a bad experience. If we all did that, then we would be
riding bicycles rather then cars, because almost everyone has gotten
stuck with a lemon once in their life.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
improvement. "
I just looked at the insuladd website and I couldn't see where they
mention doing pipes and duct work. They are also selling their additive
for $17 per gallon, and their paint for about $26 a gallon, so maybe
you're getting what you pay for.
m Ransley
coatings better than you as Ive done this since 83.
I have done my own A B tests using 3M ceramic suspended in latex of 2
coats using an IR thermometer on 145f surfaces in 65f interiors and
found No difference of even 1/100 of a degree on an adjoining surface.
Moore, Sherwin Williams, P&L, Pittsburgh all the biggest suppliers
would like to get on a Green money maker, but don't. so I tell the group
why, because it doesn't work as you advertise, and yes I know and deal
with upper management of a few major paint companies. I can tell you who
does an who doesn't back warrantees with cash.
On IR radiant rating, I have yet to see a Independently verifiable
test. I want to verify it with a call. So I say BS and it can be bought
allot cheaper then what you hawk it for. Its a 3M product , not
exclusive to you, but has been out for 20 ? years? you just want the
uninformed to be gullible and buy you line of Snake Oil.
Again put up or shut up. There is no magic to a white coating reflecting
away heat.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
showed you the links to the testing of our products but if you want to
see thermal imaging then look at this link:
http://www.icc-astec.com/Roofs/Asphalt/gallery13.htm?type=asphalt but
if you do not believe our testing then you can test all you want - by
all means do all the testing you want and I am very confident that you
will find our products stand up to our claims because we have done the
testing. I cannot speak about insuladd though. You say there is no
magic to a white coating reflecting away heat, and I agree radiation
will be reflected away more by any white surface then a black surface,
but chemical content can increase reflectivity as well as other
properties. We market our products as roofing systems and elastomeric
coatings, not as a house paint. Most of the time we do not push the
energy savings but rather the cost effectiveness and value of our
roofing solutions to traditional roofing. So I really can't speak for
the paint manufacturers but we stand behind all of our claims with a
renewable 10 year warranty.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
ahumanbe...@msn.com
to what I said about you get what you pay for, but specifically you
said, "Apx 35$ to treat a gallon" is what you used, I was saying that
their web site says $17. Again I am not trying to hawk any paints or
additives for anyone. But if I get one bad paint salesman it doesn't
mean that I am never going to use paint again either. If Sherwin
Williams doesn't meet my testing I am not going to call Pittsburgh a
bunch of snakeoil sellers. That just doesn't make any sense.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
thermometer on 145f surfaces in 65f interiors and found No difference
of even 1/100 of a degree on an adjoining surface."
Just so I am clear as to what you did, you used the product you bought
and painted a duct and left a portion unpainted and then took a thermal
reading on both the painted portion and the unpainted portion and there
was no difference, that's what your saying? Because I know with our
product (as a demonstration piece) we have taken a piece of metal -
half coated, half not, placed a heat lamp over it and then measured the
temperature underneath the metal (to simulate a metal roof) and the
side that was coated was definitely cooler. That is an independently
verifiable experiment isn't it?
m Ransley
product apply, what is coverage per gallon, Does it have an R
rating-verifiable. This is a ceramic , right. What is its heat rating
and usable temp. What is the cost per single and 5, What type of
aplications is this designed for. If you answered these sorry I missed
it.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
the testings, everything. The only thing that is not there is the
price, because of our warranty we prefer that it is applied by people
who we know will make sure the surface prep is done correctly and that
the seams are taken care of, etc. We market it for reply roofing
systems, it has been used on tanks and walls, but the roofing
application is our main niche, because we can ensure the product is
used correctly and we can guarentee the results that we claim - it is
the best value that we can offer. Obviously if someone wanted to paint
they can find cheaper products to use in the paint application then us,
but like I said we are a roof coating manufacturer. The original
question did not mention the application, that is why I got invovled.
Here is our web site: http://www.icc-astec.com/
Bill
wrote:
>
>chickenwing wrote:
>
>> Oh! it's about $90 a gallon. (sounds like marine paint)
>
>
>eeeeewwww! I love to sweep around the white steps
>
>do a little jig and lead the people on!
>
>DON'T CHANGE THE SUBJECT YO!
>
>Just kneel before us and admit!
>
>PAINT ON INSULATION IS SNAKE OIL!!!
>
>SAY IT AGAIN!!!
>
>I say it's SUNAKE OIL!!!
>
>piyah!
Agree with you all the way chickwing. Must be one of those "travelers"
you hear about. Surface coating is not insulation. Insulation takes
some mass, dead air or other medium, to resist heat transfer. Been a
general contractor/electrician for over 20 years. Pure BS!
ahumanbe...@msn.com
Bill, I work for a manufacturer of coatings and we normally do not talk
about the insulation value, we stress the value our coatings have in
the roofing industry, as compared to traditional roofing, but I want to
point out one thing. Any type of coating that is reflective, will
reduce "heat gain" and thus lower "cooling costs" or it will insulate
against heat gain - will it keep you warmer in the winter? - your
better off with all the standard types of insulation, but will it keep
you cooler in the summer - yes. And painting anything white will
increase the reflectivity, but you can also have coatings with
different content that makes it even more reflective and can give it
additional properties. The tests are there guys. Between you and me, I
live in NY and want some very thick fiberglass keeping my house warm,
but if I lived in California or even had a building with a high cooling
bill in the summer - the roof would be white - and it would have a
coating on it.
chickenwing
ahumanbe...@msn.com wrote:
> "Surface coating is not insulation"
>
> Bill, I work for a manufacturer of coatings and we normally do not talk
> bill in the summer - the roof would be white - and it would have a
> coating on it.
well you have to admit, it took a long time for someone like yourself
to finally say...IT SUCKS WIND FOR INSULATION but does well
for reflection.
I feel informed! :)
ahumanbe...@msn.com
then feel free to quote, but apperently we are talking about two
different things. You see - COATINGS ARE GREAT FOR INSULATING AGAINST
HEAT GAIN - does that make it easier for you? I said there are better
products to insulate FROM THE COLD - so it depends on your particular
application on what "sucks wind".
ahumanbe...@msn.com
application and so I offered a suggestion that could possibly work for
them.
Then almost everyone began ranting about snake oils and BS before they
even had a chance to find out what I was talking about.
Then after clearing the air and getting people to talk civilized rather
then making judgements with out facts, we were able to get more
information about the paints the one person used that did not work for
him, but we still do not know what the original application was.
I also provided multiple links to what our product is, what we claim it
can do, the applications we use it for, and our testing standards - all
upfront and very professional.
I am not trying to be sneaky, just offer a suggestion without slamming
an entire industry because of a few bad products.
ahumanbe...@msn.com
ahumanbe...@msn.com
painting interior with our product but if you want to it does have
other properties that could be of interest. Like I said before the
best value we can offer is in specific applications for possibly
exterior walls, tanks, but our biggie is roofs. A lot of our guys are
industrial painters that have moved over into the roof coatings.
Steve Richardson
news:11598-439...@storefull-3132.bay.webtv.net...
>I bought the additive, sold by Insulad which is ceramic beads by 3M, I
> tried it on a heating duct and felt no difference on a A B test and my
> IR thermometer registered none. A friend of mine at perhaps the largest
> US paint co said they were researching it to sell it, well years later
> they still dont. No R yes it has NO R value, maybe it has a bit of
> Radiant value like aluminum foil, but I have seen no independant
> verified test
Something to look into: "Ceramic beads" in a resin matrix is pretty much
what Superior Products sells, and their products have been evaluated by
independent labs but I'm no expert so I don't know if the tests are
meaningful. Superior Products has several different formulations for
different jobs. One is Supertherm which they advertise as an R-19.5.
"SPF2001F" is more for resisting flames, not really for environmental
insulation. Here's a link to their Web site's list of lab testing:
http://www.supertherm.net/st_tests.htm
Steve Richardson
St Louis MO