need better insulation in flat roof
Dan
all the time when its hot. I took a chunk of sheetrock out to find a roof
leak and noticed little or no insulation. I'm wondering if I should tear the
whole ceiling down or just cut holes big enough to stuff insulation up there
and try and patch it.
Dan
Ramsey
(BUF's) WILL leak and are hard to insulate. Back in the early 70's, I
insulated a friends house in Atlanta by blowing steyrofoam peanuts
inbetween the studs. you could not believe how much it helped. Since
then we whave wondered if that was smart since we now know about
fumes, etc., from the steyrofoam-especially in a fire. back then they
werre throwing up houses in Atlanta so fast that many did not have
insulation and people were buying them anyway.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:57:36 GMT, "Dan" <dham...@tampabay.rr.com>
wrote:
Eric Lee Green
> Ideally, you should build a sloped or pitch roof over it. Flattops
> (BUF's) WILL leak
Bullcr*p. Walk into any Walmart Supercenter during the rain and look
up at the roof. Do you see it leaking? No? That roof is flat, my
friend, and it don't leak. If your residential roof leaks, it's
because you have an incompetent roofer, not because it's impossible to
keep a flat (or, rather, low-slope) roof from leaking.
> and are hard to insulate.
That's silly. The easiest way to insulate is to blow cellulose through
*small* holes in the sheetrock (you can rent the blower at the same
big box that you buy the cellulose insulation), then have your local
flat roofing expert come re-roof the thing with spray-on foam roofing
(which is probably what's up there on top of your Walmart Supercenter
nowdays, it's used often on commercial buildings rather than the old
built-up tar-and-gravel stuff). The spray-on foam (about 1" thick)
adds about R13 on the outside to go with the R17 of the blown-in
insulation, for a total of R-30, which is not up to super-insulation
standards but certainly better than most houses (which are lucky to have
R17 in the attic unless they're fairly new).
Small holes in the sheetrock are fairly easy to patch, especially if you
keep the cutout that you made with your hole saw (it'll be a circle with
a hole in the middle) and just screw it back to your backerboard at the same
time you screw the backboard in place. Then tape, mud, texture, repaint
ceiling, voila.
Flat roofs suck most when it's time to run new electrical wiring. Then
you end up bashing big holes in the ceiling :-(.
--
Eric Lee Green mailto:er...@badtux.org
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Ramsey
going topitch roofs on top of BUR. Guess why. It is not becasue they
lkook pretty but since you know so damn much, you figure it out. bythe
way, Wal-Mart does not figure on being in that on building for 25
years. I worked on buildings over 125 years old with pitch roofs and
had less maintanence over the years than 10 year old building with a
BUR. you are not a building contractor and you may have mopped a
little tar on one but you don't have any experience abourt roofs.
Kurgan_9
news:i518kvo867h4nmr8j...@4ax.com:
> you are not a building contractor and you may have mopped a
> little tar on one but you don't have any experience abourt roofs.
I *am* a roofing contractor and I'll repeat that you're full of sh*t.
A properly installed and maintained BUR will have excellent longevity.
If your experience is with 3 ply gravel roofs, you won't see the kind of life
that a 6 or 7 ply w/modified cap will give, but I've personally installed 3
ply roofs that are going on 20 years service now with no leaks.
Eric Lee Green
> On 20 Aug 2003 18:23:58 -0500, Eric Lee Green <er...@badtux.org> wrote:
>
>>In article <m6p7kv4cqji39rlqk...@4ax.com>, Ramsey ruminated:
>>> Ideally, you should build a sloped or pitch roof over it. Flattops
>>> (BUF's) WILL leak
>>
>>Bullcr*p. Walk into any Walmart Supercenter during the rain and look
>>up at the roof. Do you see it leaking? No? That roof is flat, my
>>friend, and it don't leak. If your residential roof leaks, it's
>>because you have an incompetent roofer, not because it's impossible to
>>keep a flat (or, rather, low-slope) roof from leaking.
> had less maintanence over the years than 10 year old building with a
> BUR. you are not a building contractor and you may have mopped a
> little tar on one but you don't have any experience abourt roofs.
I have plenty of experience with roofs here in the Phoenix AZ area,
where we get torrential monsoon rains in the autumn -- and have many
flat roofs, due to the popularity of "pueblo-style" homes here in the
Southwest. Flat roofs are problematic in areas where ice and snow
buildup can occur, but a properly designed flat roof is no problem in
a warm climate.
As for hot mop, that's so ancient history. No competent roofing
contractor worth the name should ever apply hot mop to a roof
nowdays. Either membrane-type ("rubber") or foam roofing should be the
standard for any low-slope roof today. There are probably a dozen
people with foam roofs within shouting distance of my house, who have
had those foam roofs for 20 years or more, who have no problems. They
get up on the roof every 5 to 8 years and apply a fresh coat of
elastometric paint, and that's all the maintenance it requires -- or
ever *will* require. The rated lifespan of these roofs is 50 years, but
they should last well beyond that.
Kurgan_9
news:slrnbk85al...@badtux.org:
> In article <i518kvo867h4nmr8j...@4ax.com>, Ramsey ruminated:
>> On 20 Aug 2003 18:23:58 -0500, Eric Lee Green <er...@badtux.org> wrote:
>>
>>>In article <m6p7kv4cqji39rlqk...@4ax.com>, Ramsey ruminated:
>>
> As for hot mop, that's so ancient history. No competent roofing
> contractor worth the name should ever apply hot mop to a roof
> nowdays.
You are so full of sh*t that your eyes are turning brown!
And just exactly how long have you been in roofing?
Well, this foray into the construction group is a waste.
I tried.
Tom Baker
A little information would help:
Location or climate.
Orientatation of building volume and windows.
Amount of sun that reaches the various surfaces.
Although a roof picks up a lot of heat, it;s possible there is a
window or wall that is also adding to the heat gain.
TB
buck...@hennypenny.net
> people with foam roofs within shouting distance of my house, who have
> had those foam roofs for 20 years or more, who have no problems. They
> get up on the roof every 5 to 8 years and apply a fresh coat of
> elastometric paint, and that's all the maintenance it requires -- or
> ever *will* require. The rated lifespan of these roofs is 50 years, but
> they should last well beyond that.
>
Maintenance every 5 to 8 years is "good"? No thanks. A sloped
composition shingle roof will easily last 12 to 20 years without need to
"get up on the roof". Even crappy cedar shakes will last 10 years.
I suppose a flat roof is "state of the art" for a single-wide mobile
home, though. ;-)
Eric Lee Green
>> standard for any low-slope roof today. There are probably a dozen
>> people with foam roofs within shouting distance of my house, who have
>> had those foam roofs for 20 years or more, who have no problems. They
>> get up on the roof every 5 to 8 years and apply a fresh coat of
>> elastometric paint, and that's all the maintenance it requires -- or
>> ever *will* require. The rated lifespan of these roofs is 50 years, but
>> they should last well beyond that.
>
> Maintenance every 5 to 8 years is "good"? No thanks.
Painting is typically done every 5 to 8 years. It is very easy to do on the
Southwestern style home (that has parapets), you basically get up on the roof
with a big bucket of the elastometric coating, a roller with a handle, and
just roll it on, without worrying about masking or anything. It's easier
than painting the walls of a house (mostly because the parapets mean nobody
sees your roof anyhow, so it doesn't have to be pretty).
You can do the membrane roofing and it'll last 40 years without
maintenance. The low-slope roofing industry here in the Phoenix area
is about 50-40-10 foam/membrane/hot mop where foam comes up on top
because that sun gets *HOT* in the summertime. Hot mop is virtually never
used on new installs here, because our hot sun tends to bake the life out
of it rapidly. It just doesn't have the kind of service record that foam
and membrane roofs have.
> A sloped
> composition shingle roof will easily last 12 to 20 years without need to
> "get up on the roof". Even crappy cedar shakes will last 10 years.
The flat membrane roofing ("rubber roofing", usually actually EPDM)
will last 30-40 years without maintenance. Your crappy shingles
usually will be lucky to last 20 years. Shingles are cheap crap
roofing. Here in the Phoenix area we don't use those cheap crap
"shingle" things even on cheap tract housing, they get concrete tile
roofs that'll last 40-50 years.
> I suppose a flat roof is "state of the art" for a single-wide mobile
> home, though. ;-)
Sounds like you just don't have any idea of state of the art in low
slope roofing. So what's your background in construction?
BTW, the Santa Fe/Pueblo style houses being built with flat roofs here
in the Phoenix area *START* at $500,000, and go up swiftly from there.
Hardly "single wide mobile homes". The only things being built with
high-sloped roofs here are the tract houses, and even they are built
with concrete tile roofs rather than those crappy shingles that you're
so proud of. Shingles are old technology, with a short life and little
reason to use in modern situations. They have only one redeeming
value: they're cheap.
Dan
> Location or climate.
> Orientatation of building volume and windows.
> Amount of sun that reaches the various surfaces.
>
> Although a roof picks up a lot of heat, it;s possible there is a
> window or wall that is also adding to the heat gain.
>
> TB
>
large windows facing south (I am putting up trelluses in front of the
windows). There's also about 50% shade from trees. The roof slopes slightly
to the back and the building walls are concrete block. It has paraphets and
the roofing is the large sheets of shingle. There's pictures of it up on my
website: www.hampleman.com/flat_roof.htm I've since cleaned the leaves off
(January) and now cleaning off the peacans that fall on it every year about
this time. I was thinking about putting that white vinyl stuff you can get
in buckets from Home Depot, but was afraid it would be too hard to clean or
walk on with all the stuff the falls on it from the trees.
Dan
Matthew S. Whiting
> In article <JdX0b.2828$6x2....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>, buck...@hennypenny.net ruminated:
>
>>>standard for any low-slope roof today. There are probably a dozen
>>>people with foam roofs within shouting distance of my house, who have
>>>had those foam roofs for 20 years or more, who have no problems. They
>>>get up on the roof every 5 to 8 years and apply a fresh coat of
>>>elastometric paint, and that's all the maintenance it requires -- or
>>>ever *will* require. The rated lifespan of these roofs is 50 years, but
>>>they should last well beyond that.
>>
>>Maintenance every 5 to 8 years is "good"? No thanks.
>
>
> Painting is typically done every 5 to 8 years. It is very easy to do on the
> Southwestern style home (that has parapets), you basically get up on the roof
> with a big bucket of the elastometric coating, a roller with a handle, and
> just roll it on, without worrying about masking or anything. It's easier
> than painting the walls of a house (mostly because the parapets mean nobody
> sees your roof anyhow, so it doesn't have to be pretty).
Yep, used to have to do that with the silver roof sealant when I lived
in a mobile home growing up. Wasn't fun even in the relatively mild
temps (as compared to AZ) we have in PA. I'd never install a roof that
needed this sort of maintenance.
> You can do the membrane roofing and it'll last 40 years without
> maintenance. The low-slope roofing industry here in the Phoenix area
> is about 50-40-10 foam/membrane/hot mop where foam comes up on top
> because that sun gets *HOT* in the summertime. Hot mop is virtually never
> used on new installs here, because our hot sun tends to bake the life out
> of it rapidly. It just doesn't have the kind of service record that foam
> and membrane roofs have.
40 years of no maintenance is more like it!
>> A sloped
>>composition shingle roof will easily last 12 to 20 years without need to
>>"get up on the roof". Even crappy cedar shakes will last 10 years.
>
>
> The flat membrane roofing ("rubber roofing", usually actually EPDM)
> will last 30-40 years without maintenance. Your crappy shingles
> usually will be lucky to last 20 years. Shingles are cheap crap
> roofing. Here in the Phoenix area we don't use those cheap crap
> "shingle" things even on cheap tract housing, they get concrete tile
> roofs that'll last 40-50 years.
Asphalt shingles are no more crap that are concrete tiles or membrane
roofs. It depends on the climate. Shingles hold up well here in the
northeast. I've owned a house that had 25 year-old shingles that didn't
leak. They were starting to look bad cosmetically, however.
>>I suppose a flat roof is "state of the art" for a single-wide mobile
>>home, though. ;-)
>
>
> Sounds like you just don't have any idea of state of the art in low
> slope roofing. So what's your background in construction?
>
> BTW, the Santa Fe/Pueblo style houses being built with flat roofs here
> in the Phoenix area *START* at $500,000, and go up swiftly from there.
> Hardly "single wide mobile homes". The only things being built with
> high-sloped roofs here are the tract houses, and even they are built
> with concrete tile roofs rather than those crappy shingles that you're
> so proud of. Shingles are old technology, with a short life and little
> reason to use in modern situations. They have only one redeeming
> value: they're cheap.
Spoken proudly by a person with little experience outside of the desert
southwest climate.
Matt
Eric Lee Green
> Eric Lee Green wrote:
>> In article <JdX0b.2828$6x2....@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>, buck...@hennypenny.net ruminated:
>>>>standard for any low-slope roof today. There are probably a dozen
>>>>people with foam roofs within shouting distance of my house, who have
>>>>had those foam roofs for 20 years or more, who have no problems. They
>>>>get up on the roof every 5 to 8 years and apply a fresh coat of
>>>>elastometric paint, and that's all the maintenance it requires -- or
>>>>ever *will* require. The rated lifespan of these roofs is 50 years, but
>>>>they should last well beyond that.
>>>
>>>Maintenance every 5 to 8 years is "good"? No thanks.
>>
>> Painting is typically done every 5 to 8 years. It is very easy to do on the
>> Southwestern style home (that has parapets), you basically get up on the roof
>
> in a mobile home growing up. Wasn't fun even in the relatively mild
> temps (as compared to AZ) we have in PA. I'd never install a roof that
> needed this sort of maintenance.
I did the silver roof sealant on a mobile home before. I've done the
elastometric paint for foam roofing. There is no comparison in
difficulty. The elastometric paint is just a thick latex paint with
an elastometric additive. You paint it just like painting a
house. It's much easier to apply than the asphalt-based silver roof
sealant. Heck, you could just about slop it on and spread it with a
mop.
Many quality building materials require regular painting. For example,
wood and cement fiber sidings must be painted in order to keep them
from deteriorating. There's little difference between painting your siding
every 5-7 years, and painting your roof every 5-7 years. Since virtually
all low-slope roofs here in the Valley of the Sun are on stucco-sided
Southwestern-style houses, all that means is that we've moved the painting
chore from the siding to the roof.
>> You can do the membrane roofing and it'll last 40 years without
>> maintenance.
>
> 40 years of no maintenance is more like it!
If I lived in a colder climate, I'd say that too. The foam roofing is
popular here in the Phoenix area because it adds insulation and the white
coating reflects heat.
>> Your crappy shingles
>> usually will be lucky to last 20 years. Shingles are cheap crap
>> roofing. Here in the Phoenix area we don't use those cheap crap
>> "shingle" things even on cheap tract housing, they get concrete tile
>> roofs that'll last 40-50 years.
>
> Asphalt shingles are no more crap that are concrete tiles or membrane
> roofs. It depends on the climate. Shingles hold up well here in the
> northeast. I've owned a house that had 25 year-old shingles that didn't
> leak. They were starting to look bad cosmetically, however.
25 years? You make my case. (But I'll point out that 20-year shingles
will rarely last 15 years here in the Phoenix area, the sun bakes the life
right out of them).
>>>I suppose a flat roof is "state of the art" for a single-wide mobile
>>>home, though. ;-)
>>
>> Sounds like you just don't have any idea of state of the art in low
>> slope roofing. So what's your background in construction?
>>
>> BTW, the Santa Fe/Pueblo style houses being built with flat roofs here
>> in the Phoenix area *START* at $500,000, and go up swiftly from there.
>> Hardly "single wide mobile homes". The only things being built with
>> high-sloped roofs here are the tract houses, and even they are built
>> with concrete tile roofs rather than those crappy shingles that you're
>> so proud of. Shingles are old technology, with a short life and little
>> reason to use in modern situations. They have only one redeeming
>> value: they're cheap.
>
> Spoken proudly by a person with little experience outside of the desert
> southwest climate.
Actually, my father was in construction in the South
(Louisiana). Where we could get away with it, we used metal roofing,
not shingles. That was back in the day when metal roofing was ugly
(today you can get metal roofing in pleasing colors that looks
somewhat institutional but not outrageously ugly like the old
corrugated "tin" roofing), so we could only do that on rural
properties, but my grandfather's barn that my father helped build is
still standing, 50 years later -- with the original "tin" roof.
Shingles are crap, unless you're putting them on throw-away disposable
housing. I wouldn't put shingles on any house that I wanted my
children to be able to live in 40 years from now.
Frieda Lehn
One option to your dilemma would be to cut a few wholes into the
ceiling large enough to use a blow-in insulation. Cellulose
insulation is blown-in and unlike fiberglass it is made from recycled
newspaper rather than glass shards and protects against pests, fire,
mold, and mildew better than the typical fiberglass insulation.
Whatever you decide I recommend hiring a competent and qualified
contractor to check for wiring etc. due to the reality that there are
still multiple unknowns.
Thanks,
Frieda Lehn
Environmental Home Center
fri...@EnvironmentalHomeCenter.com
Matthew S. Whiting
But better yet to not have to do it at all!
>>>You can do the membrane roofing and it'll last 40 years without
>>>maintenance.
>>
>>40 years of no maintenance is more like it!
>
>
> If I lived in a colder climate, I'd say that too. The foam roofing is
> popular here in the Phoenix area because it adds insulation and the white
> coating reflects heat.
>
>
>>>Your crappy shingles
>>>usually will be lucky to last 20 years. Shingles are cheap crap
>>>roofing. Here in the Phoenix area we don't use those cheap crap
>>>"shingle" things even on cheap tract housing, they get concrete tile
>>>roofs that'll last 40-50 years.
>>
>>Asphalt shingles are no more crap that are concrete tiles or membrane
>>roofs. It depends on the climate. Shingles hold up well here in the
>>northeast. I've owned a house that had 25 year-old shingles that didn't
>>leak. They were starting to look bad cosmetically, however.
>
>
> 25 years? You make my case. (But I'll point out that 20-year shingles
> will rarely last 15 years here in the Phoenix area, the sun bakes the life
> right out of them).
For the cost, 25 years is excellent life, and these were cheap shingles.
The newer shingles will likely last much longer than that. If you
really want a durable roof, you don't use anything mentioned here yet,
you use slate. 100 years easily and, with proper maintenance, almost
indefinitely. But you pay dearly for that durability both in initial
cost of materials and installation (including a much beefier framework
to hold it up) and in the cost when maintenance is required as few
roofers today are experienced with slate replacement.
Why not? In 25-30 years you replace the shingles and they'd have a
nearly new roof at the 40 year point! This is no different than saying
that stucco siding is crap. Doesn't tend to hold up well at all in the
northeast so it must be crap...
You seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that different materials
serve different purposes in different parts of the country. This is not
a reflection of quality at all, but a reflection of fitness for use.
Many very expensive homes in this area (I'm talking multi-million here,
not $500K), use architectural grade asphalt shingles. They look
fantastic and the money saved will allow several replacements in the
future. A few folks spring for slate, but are here it is either asphalt
or slate with a few folks opting for steel. Rarely see a flat roof and
those you do see tend to leak. Our local school just put a gable roof
over top of the flat roof after years of fixing one leak after another.
Snow, ice and lots of rain simply don't make life easy for flat roofs.
And leakage is just one problem with flat roofs. The other big on is
they tend to collapse under heavy wet snow. Next time we have a
blizzard in the northeast in the spring, watch the news for the pictures
of collapse roofs. Almost always it will be a supermarket, school or
similar building with a flat roof. Rarely does a pitched roof collapse.
Matt
Eric Lee Green
> Snow, ice and lots of rain simply don't make life easy for flat roofs.
> And leakage is just one problem with flat roofs. The other big on is
> they tend to collapse under heavy wet snow. Next time we have a
Not much heavy wet snow in Florida, where the original poster was
posting from -- or Phoenix, where I'm posting from. And as I noted,
modern low slope roofing materials don't leak the way the old hot mop
stuff does. There's no reason for him to ruin a nice Spanish-style house
with parapets by putting a sloped roof on top of it, thereby ruining any
character it ever had.