Here's a New Question
Hidden Draggin
--
Hidden Draggin - Gilbert Hansford
Don't join dangerous cults, practice safe sects!
http://twitter.com/hiddendraggin
http://hiddendraggin.posterous.com/
DharmaTroll
>
> Do deaf schizophrenic people hear voices?
Amazingly, yes! The question of whether people deaf from birth could
hear hallucinated voices seems at first glance to be similar to the
old philosophical debate about whether a tree falling in a forest
makes a sound if no-one is there, but it turns out that there have
been several studies on auditory hallucinations in deaf people.
One paper reports ten case studies of people who became deaf before
they learnt language and who report hearing voices as part of a
psychotic mental illness. And this isn't the only study, PubMed has
several more.
One might have assumed that a born-deaf person would hallucinate signs
instead (and apparently, this has also been reported) but this study
carefully asked the people concerned about and they seemed to be clear
that they were 'hearing' the voices.
In one of the most interesting bits in the study they asked the deaf
patients how they could 'hear' voices when they were deaf:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856645
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19823784/Prelingually-profoundly-deaf-schizophrenic-patients-who-hear-voices-a-phenomenological-analysis
<<Although the patients were only rated as having auditory
hallucinations if they were emphatic that they heard voices rather
than received information in some other way, and several gave the sign
for talking, questioning about how they were able to hear, being deaf,
was typically uninformative. Most commonly the patients merely
shrugged, gave a 'don't know' reply, or indicated that they could not
understand the question.
Others made attempts at explanation which were superficial, facile or
otherwise unsatisfactory, such as 'maybe talking in my brain,' or
'sometimes I'm deaf, sometimes I hear'. One patient argued that he
could hear music if he turned it up loud (which probably represented
perception of vibration), and implied that the same was true for
speech. Still others made untrue or delusional claims that they could
hear or used to be able to hear.
Such patients made statements like ‘I’m not deaf‘, or ‘I can hear on
one side, on the right’, or ‘I used to be able to hear a little, a
year ago’. One patient, who was diagnosed as deaf at the age of 2
years, stated that she could hear before the age of 5 years, but then
she hit a brick wall and became deaf. One patient believed that his
hearing had been restored by God.>>
These sorts of seemingly half-hearted explanations are not uncommon in
patients with delusional syndromes. For example, if you ask a patient
who is paralyzed after brain damage but is unaware of it (something
called anosognosia) to lift their hand they can often give answers
like "it's fine where it is" or "I can't be bothered right now" while
continuing to claim that they could move it if they wanted.
Another article criticizes the idea that deaf people can hear voices
saying that the interpretation of these hallucinatory experiences
relies on hearing people imposing their ideas onto what they've been
told. See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856645
A similar question, to which I saw an interesting study recently from
the Archives of Opthalmology involved 24 blind participants took LSD
to see if they could experience visual hallucinations, which is pretty
much the same question. It turns out, they can, although this seems
largely to be the case in blind people who had several years of sight
to begin with, but who later lost their vision. Those blind from a
very early age (younger than two years-old) did not report visual
hallucinations, probably because they never had enough visual
experience to shape a fully-functioning visual system when their brain
was still developing.
http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1094.pdf
<<It is evident that a normal retina is not needed for the occurrence
of LSD-induced visual experiences. These visual experiences do not
seem to differ from the hallucinations reported by normal subjects
after LSD. Such phenomena occurred only in blind subjects who reported
prior visual activity. The drug increased the frequency of visual
events such as spots, lights, dots, and flickers. However, the complex
visual experiences reported by 3 subjects after LSD did not occur
after placebo or in ordinary experience. It is interesting to note
that duration of blindness was not related to the occurrence of visual
hallucinations; nor was intelligence, acuity of visual memory, or use
of visual imagery in speech.
Three other reports deal with the effects of hallucinogenic drugs on
blind subjects. Alema reported that 50 micrograms of orally
administered LSD induced elaborate visual hallucinations in a subject
with bilateral enucleations of the eyeball. However, the effects of 50
micrograms of LSD are stated to have persisted for the incredibly long
period of 5 days (they usually last 6 hours). This subject was noted
to have spontaneous visual activity.
Zador administered mescaline orally in doses of 0.05 to 0.4gm to 10
blind subjects. Elaborate visual hallucinations usually followed. Most
of the subjects had prior spontaneous visual activity, but it is
difficult to evaluate this activity because they also had central
nervous system diseases. The presence or absence of light perception
was not specified for this group, and no control studies were carried
out.
Forrer and Goldnerr gave LSD, 1 microgram per kilogram to 2 blind
volunteers, both of whom had suffered destruction of the optic nerves.
Neither reported visual hallucinations, no mention was made of prior
spontaneous hallucinations, and no mention was made of prior
spontaneous visual activity.>>
--DharmaTroll
Hidden Draggin
WOW...thanks!!
Kitty P
"Hidden Draggin" <an...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:he9tfg$t1i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Oh boy - a krazy koan!
Kitty
Hidden Draggin
> "Hidden Draggin" <an...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:he9tfg$t1i$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Do deaf schizophrenic people hear voices?
>
Apparently...not!!
Kirsten
> DharmaTroll wrote:
>> On Nov 21, 6:35 pm, "Hidden Draggin" <a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Do deaf schizophrenic people hear voices?
>> Amazingly, yes! The question of whether people deaf from birth could
>> hear hallucinated voices seems at first glance to be similar to the
>> old philosophical debate about whether a tree falling in a forest
>> makes a sound if no-one is there, but it turns out that there have
>> been several studies on auditory hallucinations in deaf people.
>> Forrer and Goldnerr gave LSD, 1 microgram per kilogram to 2 blind
>> volunteers, both of whom had suffered destruction of the optic nerves.
>> Neither reported visual hallucinations, no mention was made of prior
>> spontaneous hallucinations, and no mention was made of prior
>> spontaneous visual activity.>>
>>
>> --DharmaTroll
>
> WOW...thanks!!
>
Heh, I think we can say "asked and answered".
Best wishes
Kirsten
Kitty P
Guess not. We have been treated to enough information to never ask that
question again.
I was going to go for what is the sound of one nut cracking - but it just
didn't work.
Kitty
Love
kir...@dontspamplz.com says...
But it sucks. What good are auditory hallucinations
without visual ones? That neon-bar 3D-symmetrical
thing floating in the air isn't going to dance properly
without some tunes. Nomesane?
--
Love
May Shai-Hulud clear the path before you.
Love
>
>Do deaf schizophrenic people hear voices?
Followup Question:
Do they see people signing when they really aren't?
Kirsten
>>>
>> Heh, I think we can say "asked and answered".
>
> But it sucks. What good are auditory hallucinations
> without visual ones? That neon-bar 3D-symmetrical
> thing floating in the air isn't going to dance properly
> without some tunes. Nomesane?
>
Word on that.
Best wishes
Kirsten
daletx
That PubMed's just a great place to go for any sort of health-related
question. It's one of the first sites that the GF, a medical librarian,
searches for answers to just about any question.
DT
DharmaTroll
> DharmaTroll wrote:
> > On Nov 21, 6:35 pm, "Hidden Draggin" <a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Amazingly, yes! The question of whether peopledeaffrom birth could
> > hear hallucinated voices seems at first glance to be similar to the
> > old philosophical debate about whether a tree falling in a forest
> > makes a sound if no-one is there, but it turns out that there have
> > been several studies on auditory hallucinations indeafpeople.
>
> > One paper reports ten case studies of people who becamedeafbefore
> > they learnt language and who report hearing voices as part of a
> > psychotic mental illness. And this isn't the only study, PubMed has
> > several more.
>
> > instead (and apparently, this has also been reported) but this study
> > carefully asked the people concerned about and they seemed to be clear
> > that they were 'hearing' the voices.
>
> > In one of the most interesting bits in the study they asked thedeaf
> > patients how they could 'hear' voices when they weredeaf:
>
> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856645
> > <<Although the patients were only rated as having auditory
> > hallucinations if they were emphatic that they heard voices rather
> > than received information in some other way, and several gave the sign
> > for talking, questioning about how they were able to hear, beingdeaf,
> > was typically uninformative. Most commonly the patients merely
> > shrugged, gave a 'don't know' reply, or indicated that they could not
> > understand the question.
>
> > Others made attempts at explanation which were superficial, facile or
> > otherwise unsatisfactory, such as 'maybe talking in my brain,' or
> > could hear music if he turned it up loud (which probably represented
> > perception of vibration), and implied that the same was true for
> > speech. Still others made untrue or delusional claims that they could
> > hear or used to be able to hear.
>
> > one side, on the right’, or ‘I used to be able to hear a little, a
> > years, stated that she could hear before the age of 5 years, but then
> > hearing had been restored by God.>>
>
> > These sorts of seemingly half-hearted explanations are not uncommon in
> > patients with delusional syndromes. For example, if you ask a patient
> > who is paralyzed after brain damage but is unaware of it (something
> > called anosognosia) to lift their hand they can often give answers
> > like "it's fine where it is" or "I can't be bothered right now" while
> > continuing to claim that they could move it if they wanted.
>
> > saying that the interpretation of these hallucinatory experiences
> > relies on hearing people imposing their ideas onto what they've been
> > told. See:
> >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16856645
>
> > A similar question, to which I saw an interesting study recently from
> > to see if they could experience visual hallucinations, which is pretty
> > much the same question. It turns out, they can, although this seems
> > to begin with, but who later lost their vision. Thoseblindfrom a
> > very early age (younger than two years-old) did not report visual
> > hallucinations, probably because they never had enough visual
> > experience to shape a fully-functioning visual system when their brain
> > was still developing.
>
> >http://www.lycaeum.org/research/researchpdfs/1094.pdf
> > <<It is evident that a normal retina is not needed for the occurrence
> > of LSD-induced visual experiences. These visual experiences do not
> > seem to differ from the hallucinations reported by normal subjects
> > prior visual activity. The drug increased the frequency of visual
> > events such as spots, lights, dots, and flickers. However, the complex
> > visual experiences reported by 3 subjects after LSD did not occur
> > after placebo or in ordinary experience. It is interesting to note
> > that duration of blindness was not related to the occurrence of visual
> > hallucinations; nor was intelligence, acuity of visual memory, or use
> > of visual imagery in speech.
>
> > Three other reports deal with the effects of hallucinogenic drugs on
> > administered LSD induced elaborate visual hallucinations in a subject
> > with bilateral enucleations of the eyeball. However, the effects of 50
> > micrograms of LSD are stated to have persisted for the incredibly long
> > period of 5 days (they usually last 6 hours). This subject was noted
> > to have spontaneous visual activity.
>
> > Zador administered mescaline orally in doses of 0.05 to 0.4gm to 10
> > of the subjects had prior spontaneous visual activity, but it is
> > difficult to evaluate this activity because they also had central
> > nervous system diseases. The presence or absence of light perception
> > was not specified for this group, and no control studies were carried
> > out.
>
> > Forrer and Goldnerr gave LSD, 1 microgram per kilogram to 2blind
> > volunteers, both of whom had suffered destruction of the optic nerves.
> > Neither reported visual hallucinations, no mention was made of prior
> > spontaneous hallucinations, and no mention was made of prior
> > spontaneous visual activity.>>
>
> > --DharmaTroll
>
> WOW...thanks!!
>
> --
> Hidden Draggin - Gilbert Hansford
> Don't join dangerous cults, practice safe sects!
> http://twitter.com/hiddendraggin
> http://hiddendraggin.posterous.com/
Here's a new piece I just read in a science blog today, fyi.
--DharmaTroll
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17558642
Full article pdf version:
http://www.dcal.ucl.ac.uk/documents/Deaf_voice_hallucinations_Atkinson_2007.pdf
An amazing study that attempted to distill the variety of 'hearing
voices' experiences in deaf people was published in the journal
Cognitive Neuropsychiatry in 2007 (there's a full text copy available
online as a pdf) and attempted to avoid some of the pitfalls of
studying auditory hallucinations in people with absent or limited
hearing.
Some of the earlier research on deaf people who hear voices has been
criticised for assuming that when a deaf person describes a 'voice' it
automatically means they are having a similar experience to hearing
people.
For example, when a deaf person describes the experience as 'loud'
they may just mean it is particularly intrusive, rather than that it
has specific auditory properties.
This later study used a sorting method, were a number of statements
about what the experience could be like (some illustrated) were
presented to deaf participants and they are asked to select the ones
that best describe their experiences.
The data was then analysed using factor analysis - a statistical
procedure that, in this case, was used to group participants whose
experiences were similar.
Five groups or 'factors' were found, and I've reproduced the
descriptions below as they are a completely fascinating insight into
how these experiences appear in their diverse and varied forms.
Factor A: Nonauditory voices with subvisual perception of voice-
articulators in the mind’s eye
These experiences were mostly reported by profoundly deaf
participants who were deaf at birth or before the development of
language.
Voices were reported to be nonauditory, clear, and easy to
understand. Participants were certain that they did not hear any sound
when voices were present. They did not consider questions about pitch,
volume, and loudness relevant to their experiences. Participants knew
the identity and gender of the voice but did not deduce this
information from the way it sounds. They reported seeing an image of
the voice communicating with them in their mind’s eye when voice
hallucinations were present. All participants had experienced seeing
an image of the voice signing or lips moving in their mind. Imagery of
fingerspelling was also seen but was less common. These images
appeared to be subvisual in nature and distinct from true visual
hallucinations. They were clearly understood as originating internally
and several participants stated that the image could still be
perceived with their eyes closed.
Factor B: Mixed perception and uncertainty about how voices are
perceived.
These experiences were mainly reported by deaf people who had
experience of hearing speech and used hearing aids.
The participants were uncertain about whether their voice
hallucinations were auditory in nature. Comprehensibility and clarity
are variable. The voice used speech/lip movements to convey its’
message and occasionally fingerspelling and gesture. The voice was
perceived as sometimes being silently articulated and sometimes having
sound. Participants were uncertain if the voice was mouthing with or
without vocalisation. Despite this uncertainty, Participant 10 was
able to make attributions about voice pitch, volume, and loudness. No
primary visual hallucinations were reported, although Participant 10
described seeing a stationary image of her deceased husband when the
voice was present. There was less certainty about whether a visual
image was present when the hallucinations occurred but participants
agreed that the hands/lips of the voice could be perceived but that
they were unclear. Strange sensations were perceived in the body both
when the voice was present and not present. These included the
perception of air currents, electric currents, and vibrations.
Factor C: Poorly defined voices.
These experiences were largely reported by participants who were
born deaf in developing countries and spent their early years without
hearing aids or formal language, only acquiring sign language as their
first language after moving to the UK after the critical period for
language development
The voices were poorly defined, hard to understand and unclear,
with no definitive statements about exact voice properties but rather
a picture of what they were not. There were contradictory responses
about whether the voices made sound or not. It was not clear whether
participants were completely unable to make judgements about pitch and
volume because the voices were not auditory in nature, or because they
did not possess a sufficiently developed concept of sound-based
descriptions. There was a great deal of uncertainty about voice
genesis that may have led the participants to speculate that they
might be ‘‘hearing’’ something when they were present. This factor is
unique because participants did not perceive imagery of the voice
articulators during hallucinations. The gender and identity of the
voice were unknown and there was much more uncertainty about which
language or modality the voice used to communicate. Participants were
unable to articulate voice content but merely described a sense of
being persecuted and criticised by an external other.
Factor D: Auditory voices.
These experiences were reported by deaf people who were born
moderately or moderately severely deaf and used hearing aids.
Voices were auditory and participants report that they could
always hear sounds when the voices were present. Participant 11 was
able to make judgements about auditory properties including pitch and
volume. Participant 7 was less able to provide qualitative description
of acoustic aspects but she was convinced that she could hear the
voices. Interestingly, the bilingual participant showed a mixed
pattern of voice perception. She experienced predominantly auditory
hallucinations but also reported silently articulated sign language
hallucinations, with concurrent subvisual imagery of the articulators
similar to those experienced by participants on Factor A.
Factor E: Voices and true visual, olfactory, gustatory, and
tactile phenomena
These experiences were reported by two deaf participants who were
both profoundly deaf.
This factor was distinguished by the presence of true visual,
auditory, olfactory, and gustatory phenomena, which occurred
separately to voice hallucinations. These included tinnitus, the
perception of a black shadow darting through peripheral vision,
strange smells emanating from the body, and a petrol taste in the
mouth. Other phenomena occurred in conjunction with the voices such as
vibrations and electric currents in the body, which occurred only when
the voice was present. Participant 25 reported seeing a true visual
hallucination of someone signing to her in real space as well as
imagery of the voice in her mind’s eye.
Hidden Draggin
THANX!