Advice for experimentation

[Attila Iskander]

Just got a Kitchen aid mixer

Looking to find out what should be average time and speed to work dough with
dough hook

Current bread are
White, rye and whole wheat
Currently use 1.25 lb of flour, 1.25 cup water, 1.25 tsp for salt and dry
yeast.
Also for Rye and whole wheat use .25 lb rye or whole wheat flour with 1 lb
white bread flour

Use Dakota Maid bread flour
<https://www.ndmill.com/store/proddetail.cfm?CFID=5070&CFTOKEN=45577374&ItemID=10&CategoryID=3>

That I buy at Sam's Club
Whole wheat and rye flour, I get at the co-op and do not know source.

First rise is 40-60 minutes
Rise after shaping is about 40-60 minutes also
Rise is done in oven at 100F (oven feature)

Bake in convection oven @ 375F for 30 minutes

Get nice loaves with decent crumb and soft crust using about 3 minutes of
medium speed.
The loaves end up a wider than tall in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio
The crust comes out hard, but gets soft during cooling

Would appreciate suggestions of what to play with and to what degree to get:
a taller loaf,
a crispier crust.

Thank you.

[Boron Elgar]

I haven't been ignoring this post. I am just trying to come up with an
answer and you have a lot of variables to cover.

Have you experimented with different hydrations?

have you tried overnight retarding of the dough in the fridge, rather
than with an oven function rise?

Have you verified the rise temp of your oven?

I have abandoned all but minimal or special (VERY high hydration)
dough kneading in the mixer. I do use the mixer to combine, let the
dough sit to autolyse, then add any extras and toss it all into a
bowl. After that, I use a few stretch and folds over the course of an
hour, then toss the lot into the fridge overnight.

Not all doughs will easily support free-form shaping, some need a pan
of some sort.

Artisan breads often come out with a hard/crispy crust that softens
with storage. Any hard/crispy crust is liable to get tough and chewy
with storage that has any moisture and dry and breakable if there is
no moisture.

There - I have just tossed out a lot of stuff, only some of which may
apply to your baking. Feel free to follow up with any comments or
other questions.

Boron

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
news:a3gsb85vnkgqkkvba...@4ax.com...

Thank you for responding.
I was starting to wonder if anyone would :-)

I just migrated from bread machine to mixer.
Primary objective has been and remains, to produce a decent loaf for daily
consumption.
Saving a bit of change is also part of the equation. ($.50 @home vs $5.00
@store per loaf)
My 3 standard breads, described above are good enough to keep the family
happy and requests to bring some when invited to eat at other houses.
(I have just added Pita bread for sandwiches with some success)

Free time to get into more creative work is still limited and will be until
kids are out of the house in about 5+ years.

Deep in my heart I crave baguette and ficelle at least once a week.
(Blessed Antonio Pichette - where are you ?)
(He was the baker in the village near our summer cottage - Only made
Baguette and Ficelle on Sundays. People lined up at the bakery after leaving
High Mass.Usually sold out within 1 hour after opening.)

But in the meantime, to answer your questions

1) No I have not yet experimented with hydration. In part because I was
focused on successfully transferring my bread from machine to oven, by
basically copying the times and temperatures of the bread machine. First
priority was to consistently get the same bread. Which I now have achieved.

2) Oven rise temp is 100F
Top of fridge also works well, although that does mean moving all the
"stuff" my wife likes to keep there

3) Have tried overnight fridge, but the results were not that good
Not sure what the problem was, bread was more like a pancake than a
loaf.

4) Storage is not a real issue.
1 1/2# loaf will last at most 2 days, anything else becomes bread
crumbs, bread pudding and croutons (butter & garlic), which somehow
disappear within a few days and never last for dishes.
Ironically demand for potato and corn chips is down since I started
making croutons.
If that continues, I'll probably go to making 2 1# loaves at a time.
And the really bad failures usually end up with the dog, squirrels and
birds, who don't seem to mind that much.


My biggest problem is I'm not sure where to start.
I guess I'm really trying to build a "chart" of the interactions between
flour, hydration, yeast, rise times, and baking times to understand how a
change in one factor will require an adjustment elsewhere for best result.
Since, flour and yeast are definitely going to be constants for a while, I'm
trying to decide which of the other elements should be varied and which
should be held constant while trying to figure things out.

So it really will be about hydration, knead time, rise time and bake time &
temp.

But for example. I have no clue what qualifies as not enough or too much
kneading for both before the rise and before the shaping. and how too little
or too much will affect the loaf. Not to mention how to tell when it's too
little or too much
Although I do realize that even that changes with different breads.

In effect, I have no clue as to what is the "safe" envelope is for each of
those functions, and what can be expected if you step beyond the "safe"
envelope

I almost wish there was the equivalent of a ballistics software, where you
can plug in the numbers and get a pretty good idea where you should end up
on the target. :-)

[Boron Elgar]

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:06 -0600, " Attila Iskander"
<Attila....@live.com> wrote:

>

>
>Thank you for responding.
> I was starting to wonder if anyone would :-)

We are not a prolific group, but we make up for it with other sterling
qualities....(ahem)

>
>I just migrated from bread machine to mixer.
>Primary objective has been and remains, to produce a decent loaf for daily
>consumption.
>Saving a bit of change is also part of the equation. ($.50 @home vs $5.00
>@store per loaf)
>My 3 standard breads, described above are good enough to keep the family
>happy and requests to bring some when invited to eat at other houses.
> (I have just added Pita bread for sandwiches with some success)
>
>Free time to get into more creative work is still limited and will be until
>kids are out of the house in about 5+ years.

I wound up baking less when the last ones finally fledged late last
year..

>
>Deep in my heart I crave baguette and ficelle at least once a week.
> (Blessed Antonio Pichette - where are you ?)
> (He was the baker in the village near our summer cottage - Only made
>Baguette and Ficelle on Sundays. People lined up at the bakery after leaving
>High Mass.Usually sold out within 1 hour after opening.)

Then I must point you to these links. You realize, of course, that you
are aiming immediately for the acme of the home baker's bread
repertoire.

There are several bread baking videos in the Julia Child PBS series.
Seek them out. Although some techniques have changed a bit (come into
fashion, shall we say) since they were filmed, truly they are
magnificent. Besides, she is a pisser.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2250836815/

The next link is from The Fresh Loaf. You will find excellent advice
there. Read carefully, though for follows to suggestions or problems,
because sometimes people just bomb out.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9839/ficelles-made-anis-bouabsa039s-baguette-formula%E2%80%9D

We have access to a wonderful bread site maintained by someone who has
been a prolific poster here, Barry Harmon. Excellent guidance for
novice and experienced bakers.

http://artisanbreadbaking.com/

>
>But in the meantime, to answer your questions
>
>1) No I have not yet experimented with hydration. In part because I was
>focused on successfully transferring my bread from machine to oven, by
>basically copying the times and temperatures of the bread machine. First
>priority was to consistently get the same bread. Which I now have achieved.
>
>2) Oven rise temp is 100F
> Top of fridge also works well, although that does mean moving all the
>"stuff" my wife likes to keep there
>
>3) Have tried overnight fridge, but the results were not that good
> Not sure what the problem was, bread was more like a pancake than a
>loaf.

You will find as you progress, that a long, cool rise provides deeper
flavor than a shorter, warmer one in most cases. One must be sure the
dough has been carefully mixed with yeast, biga, sourdough,
preferment, etc., and given several stretch & folds before you tuck it
someplace cool. You need to be sure it will maintain its oomph while
that slow proof goes on.

>
>4) Storage is not a real issue.
> 1 1/2# loaf will last at most 2 days, anything else becomes bread
>crumbs, bread pudding and croutons (butter & garlic), which somehow
>disappear within a few days and never last for dishes.
> Ironically demand for potato and corn chips is down since I started
>making croutons.
> If that continues, I'll probably go to making 2 1# loaves at a time.
> And the really bad failures usually end up with the dog, squirrels and
>birds, who don't seem to mind that much.

Excellent recycling ideas. We also batch bake and freeze around here,
or freshen day-old (or older) loaves by dampening them with a bit of
water, then reheating in a 350 oven for a bit.

>
>
>My biggest problem is I'm not sure where to start.
>I guess I'm really trying to build a "chart" of the interactions between
>flour, hydration, yeast, rise times, and baking times to understand how a
>change in one factor will require an adjustment elsewhere for best result.
>Since, flour and yeast are definitely going to be constants for a while, I'm
>trying to decide which of the other elements should be varied and which
>should be held constant while trying to figure things out.
>
>So it really will be about hydration, knead time, rise time and bake time &
>temp.
>
>But for example. I have no clue what qualifies as not enough or too much
>kneading for both before the rise and before the shaping. and how too little
>or too much will affect the loaf. Not to mention how to tell when it's too
>little or too much
> Although I do realize that even that changes with different breads.
>
>In effect, I have no clue as to what is the "safe" envelope is for each of
>those functions, and what can be expected if you step beyond the "safe"
>envelope
>
>I almost wish there was the equivalent of a ballistics software, where you
>can plug in the numbers and get a pretty good idea where you should end up
>on the target. :-)

I have left all of this as is, and give you the following advice...
Spend a bit of time reading the links above and watching some of the
videos, too. There are other fine bakers online, too, at youtube or
other places. Seek out Peter Reinhart or Cyril Hitz in video - (there
are others, but those come to mind quickly.)

Your breads will vary according to weather, flours, hydration and oven
method. Ain't no One True Path. We will likely tell you our own, but
you will ultimately develop your own. It takes time. You've
accomplished a lot so far. Keep going.

Remember that the most successful bread is whatever YOU seek. Some
folks like plain sandwich loaves, other like artisan types of bread,
or whole grain ones, or enriched dough loaves with eggs and butter,
or crusty rolls or flaky croissants. Each type has techniques
developed to achieve the desired results. Some seek soft and close
crumb, some the open and airy sort, some crunchy, some cottony, some
chewy. You get to decide.

Basically, there ain't no one way to do it. You best bet is to define
what you want, then seek out some expertise as to how to go about
mixing, proofing and baking that sort of loaf. Some of that you may be
able to find here, some you may find browsing a library shelf, other
tidbits may appear online with careful searching.

Each of us here has favorite breads and methodologies. I am the
lunatic among the more sane bakers here and bake without recipes at
all. It's my own "trust the Force, Luke" way of baking, but it took me
a while to do it. The most accomplished bakers here (and I do not
flatter myself by saying I am their equal) all have their own ways -
some measure, some weigh, some adhere strictly to recipes, some
experiment...take a little bit of each of us....like a varietal wine -
a bit of this here, a bit of that there, and you let it ferment a
while and one day, it will just Be There.

It isn't an impossible task or an unhappy one. It is fun and delicious
and damn, flour and water are cheap, aren't they?

Now I must inquire about your name...your own or a delightful nick? A
bit of Hungarian? A bit of Persian? My own name here is wholly made
up, by the way.

Boron

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...
>
<BIG SNIP>
>

Thanks for all that info
It looks like I have my work cut out for me..

Some of the breads I would like to learn are:
Baguette-ficelle
Hallah - Egg loaf (first effor OK - a bit dry)
Black bread - the one that is a meal of itself
French Boule (My white is close but neither tall enough, nor
consistently crusty enough. Someone suggested I use an egg wash on it for
better color and crust)

> Now I must inquire about your name...your own or a delightful nick? A
> bit of Hungarian? A bit of Persian? My own name here is wholly made
> up, by the way.
>

Pretty much in line with your speculation
I am Magyar, aka Hungarian according to the rest of the planet.
But the Magyar are not Huns
Nonetheless Atilla is an Iconic hero to the Magyar. Like a pathfinder who
first travelled to what would later become "Magyarorszag" - Land of the
Magyar.

Iskander is an alternate name for Alexander the Great in Asia.
It stuck in my head while watching the Michael Caine, Sean Connery film, The
Man Who Would be King, based on a Rudyard Kipling story.

But to differentiate from the Original Atilla, and change the pronunciation
somewhat, I spelled it Attila.
Which ends up being pronounced
"Ut" (as in UT-ter) followd by "teela" said very quickly.
Where as the original is said quickly to the "L" with the last "la" drawn
out on the "L"
"Atil -lllA"

[Boron Elgar]

On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 20:39:14 -0600, " Attila Iskander"
<Attila....@live.com> wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
>news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...
>>
><BIG SNIP>
>>
>
>Thanks for all that info
>It looks like I have my work cut out for me..
>
>Some of the breads I would like to learn are:
> Baguette-ficelle

One of the links I included yesterday with help with this. Also see
Peter Reinhart's Pain Ancienne for a variation that is simple and
produces good results early in the learning curve.

> Hallah - Egg loaf (first effor OK - a bit dry)

Try here - Maggie Glezer has a fabulous sourdough challah. This bread
is fabulous.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17725/sourdough-challah-shape-hungarian-celebration-loaf

> Black bread - the one that is a meal of itself

Lots of variations on this, ranging from old-fashioned, Jewish
pumpernickel to heavier Polish or Russian versions. More hints?

> French Boule (My white is close but neither tall enough, nor
>consistently crusty enough. Someone suggested I use an egg wash on it for
>better color and crust)

Any lean white dough - similar to what you use for your ficelle, will
work for this. Only the shaping and last proof vary.

>
>> Now I must inquire about your name...your own or a delightful nick? A
>> bit of Hungarian? A bit of Persian? My own name here is wholly made
>> up, by the way.
>>
>
>Pretty much in line with your speculation
>I am Magyar, aka Hungarian according to the rest of the planet.
>But the Magyar are not Huns
>Nonetheless Atilla is an Iconic hero to the Magyar. Like a pathfinder who
>first travelled to what would later become "Magyarorszag" - Land of the
>Magyar.

My maternal roots are Jewish-Hungarian...Budapest, Munkacs (now in
Ukraine).

>
>Iskander is an alternate name for Alexander the Great in Asia.
>It stuck in my head while watching the Michael Caine, Sean Connery film, The
>Man Who Would be King, based on a Rudyard Kipling story.

And one of my all-time favorite films.

>
>But to differentiate from the Original Atilla, and change the pronunciation
>somewhat, I spelled it Attila.
>Which ends up being pronounced
> "Ut" (as in UT-ter) followd by "teela" said very quickly.
>Where as the original is said quickly to the "L" with the last "la" drawn
>out on the "L"
> "Atil -lllA"
>

I have been aware of that pronunciation for a long time. I'm a
smart-ass.

Boron

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:8bdub89b1brp4jcca...@4ax.com...

>
>>
> I have been aware of that pronunciation for a long time. I'm a
> smart-ass.
>

Igazábul ?

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:8bdub89b1brp4jcca...@4ax.com...

>
>>
> I have been aware of that pronunciation for a long time. I'm a
> smart-ass.
>

So what are the roots of your nym ?

I know of Boron the Element and Elgar the composer
Bt I believe I'm missing something

[Boron Elgar]

I can barely read it and cannot speak it at all. It caused me no end
of trouble when I visited many years ago.

Boron

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:pjoub85ki7ltavvpo...@4ax.com...

My parents insisted we speak it at home
Also being a teacher, my mother insisted that every summer day, we spend at
least an hour reading and writing in Hungarian.
One day, my brother and I were playing in our room, while our mom was
getting supper ready in the kitchen. My mother heard one of us say something
that was clearly not in Hungarian.
So she shouted from the kitchen (in Hungarian) "Say it in Hungarian".
To which an immediate response came back in Hungarian equivalent to "Stop
cheating you stupid git".
At that point she felt confident that we wouldn't forget our Hungarian.
:-)

My brother and I are is fluent in English, French and Hungarian, and because
part of our education was classical, we can also get along in Latin and
ancient Greek.
I can also get by in Japanese (which has many similarities to Hungarian),
which I acquired as an adjunct to studying Judo and Aikido.

[Boron Elgar]

Spot on in both cases.

I created something gender-neutral about 14 years ago and have kept it
as my Internet nym all this time.

Boron

[Boron Elgar]

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 09:59:11 -0600, " Attila Iskander"

Your mom was smart. I get the impression that those smart genes got
passed on, too.

Boron

[graham]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:inoub8tv4nqdfkdqf...@4ax.com...

Glory be! {;-)
Graham

[Boron Elgar]

On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 12:54:21 -0700, "graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
>news:inoub8tv4nqdfkdqf...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 5 Dec 2012 07:34:46 -0600, " Attila Iskander"
>> <Attila....@live.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:8bdub89b1brp4jcca...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I have been aware of that pronunciation for a long time. I'm a
>>>> smart-ass.
>>>>
>>>
>>>So what are the roots of your nym ?
>>>
>>>I know of Boron the Element and Elgar the composer
>>> Bt I believe I'm missing something
>>>
>>>
>> Spot on in both cases.
>>
>> I created something gender-neutral about 14 years ago and have kept it
>> as my Internet nym all this time.
>>
>Glory be! {;-)
>Graham
>

You bet!!

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...

>
> Then I must point you to these links. You realize, of course, that you
> are aiming immediately for the acme of the home baker's bread
> repertoire.
>
> There are several bread baking videos in the Julia Child PBS series.
> Seek them out. Although some techniques have changed a bit (come into
> fashion, shall we say) since they were filmed, truly they are
> magnificent. Besides, she is a pisser.
>
> http://video.pbs.org/video/2250836815/
>

Started out by watching the Julia Child - Danielle Forestier video about
making Bātards

Don't you just love French humor calling a loaf of bread a "bastard" ??
(although the word can also have other uses and meanings
e,g. a "bātard" can also be a stray dog)
I had to replay the part where D.F. states that you have to knead to dough
850 times
If you're using a machine on medium low, you need to do 850 turns.

If French bakers just have to knead their dough for baguette 850 times, how
come they don't have shoulders like Sumo wrestlers ?

[Boron Elgar]

This is where times have changed. Once you have combined flour and
most water, allowed an autolyse, fully incorporated all your
ingredients and mixed them in, you needed knead at all. You can do a
series of stretch and folds over the course of an hour or two.

If you do want to use the mixer instead (and believe, with arthritis
and a DLX Electrolux Assistent, I do sometimes), then just let the
dough go until you achieve a decent windowpane test.

So, if these terms are unfamiliar, seek out:

autolyse
Stretch and fold
windowpane test

I can dig up some sites later this evening, if you like.

Boron

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:4444c89lbeb6krnpk...@4ax.com...

Thanks
But I can Google with the best of them :-)
I'll see if I can come up with those on my own.

(Can't let others do all the walking for me - my legs will atrophy)

[graham]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...

I have a video of JC in her prime where she makes bread. However, it's
obvious that the dough is of pretty low hydration and would never have made
a "holy" loaf.
Graham

[Mike Duffy]

Boron Elgar <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in

news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:06 -0600, "Attila Iskander"

>> ... Baguette and Ficelle


> .... You realize, of course, that you are aiming immediately

> for the acme of the home baker's bread repertoire.

Do you mean it's not citrus bread ????

Incidentally, Meyers *have* arrived in stores around here, and I just went
out and bought an implement designed specifically to remove zest from
citrus fruits. And besides the Meyers, I bought a few normal lemons, limes,
sunburst tangerines, midnight oranges, white grapefruit, and a honey
pomello.

Much will end up in drinks, but rest assured that limonene molecules will
be detectable in my kitchen this weekend at levels well-above threshold.

My "serious" question is about spices. I usually use a bit of vanilla, but
my recent research on lemon and orange bread recipes have occaisionally
turned up cardamom.

Ginger appears often with citrus fruits in oriental cuisine, and cardamom
is related to ginger (and turmeric). Does anyone have any advice?

Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.

--
http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm

[Frank McCoy]

Mike Duffy <Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote:

>Boron Elgar <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in
>news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:06 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
>
>>> ... Baguette and Ficelle
>
>
>> .... You realize, of course, that you are aiming immediately
>> for the acme of the home baker's bread repertoire.
>
>
>Do you mean it's not citrus bread ????
>
>Incidentally, Meyers *have* arrived in stores around here, and I just went
>out and bought an implement designed specifically to remove zest from
>citrus fruits. And besides the Meyers, I bought a few normal lemons, limes,
>sunburst tangerines, midnight oranges, white grapefruit, and a honey
>pomello.
>
>Much will end up in drinks, but rest assured that limonene molecules will
>be detectable in my kitchen this weekend at levels well-above threshold.
>
>My "serious" question is about spices. I usually use a bit of vanilla, but
>my recent research on lemon and orange bread recipes have occaisionally
>turned up cardamom.
>
>Ginger appears often with citrus fruits in oriental cuisine, and cardamom
>is related to ginger (and turmeric). Does anyone have any advice?
>

No cloves?

>Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
>not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.

--

_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_

[Tesseract]

Turmeric is a very mild spice, often used mainly for the colour. The one
that you want to avoid unless you are going for that Indian taste is
Fenugreek.

You could experiment with spice combinations in something small and
simple: egg salad, tuna salad. Fry up small ground beef patties, each
with a different spice combination. Or, before you bake a loaf, bake
buns, each with different spices. Take notes as you go.

--
Tesseract

[William B. (Billby)]

>>>> ... Baguette and Ficelle
>>
>>
>>> .... You realize, of course, that you are aiming immediately
>>> for the acme of the home baker's bread repertoire.
>>
>>
>> Do you mean it's not citrus bread ????
>>
>> Incidentally, Meyers *have* arrived in stores around here, and I just went
>> out and bought an implement designed specifically to remove zest from
>> citrus fruits. And besides the Meyers, I bought a few normal lemons, limes,
>> sunburst tangerines, midnight oranges, white grapefruit, and a honey
>> pomello.
>>
>> Much will end up in drinks, but rest assured that limonene molecules will
>> be detectable in my kitchen this weekend at levels well-above threshold.
>>
>> My "serious" question is about spices. I usually use a bit of vanilla, but
>> my recent research on lemon and orange bread recipes have occaisionally
>> turned up cardamom.
>>
>> Ginger appears often with citrus fruits in oriental cuisine, and cardamom
>> is related to ginger (and turmeric). Does anyone have any advice?
>>
> No cloves?
>
>> Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
>> not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.

Sounds like a real lemon to me...

[invalidd]

Tesseract wrote:
> On 07-Dec-12 8:51 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>
>> Mike Duffy <Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote:
>>

>>
>>> Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
>>> not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.
>>
>>

>

> Turmeric is a very mild spice, often used mainly for the colour.

I use turmeric to add flavor to white rice since salt is a no-no
nowadays. And the yellow color is quite attractive, if you like that
sort of thing.

>
> You could experiment with spice combinations in something small and
> simple: egg salad, tuna salad. Fry up small ground beef patties, each
> with a different spice combination. Or, before you bake a loaf, bake
> buns, each with different spices. Take notes as you go.
>

Flavored cupcakes?

(Personally I don't get cupcakes, but they're trendy and have turned
into big business. There's even a sitcom about them, '2 Broke Girls'.)

[Boron Elgar]

Was she making "French bread"?

When you look around at the plain pots, pans and basic tools she has
in those early programs (Oh, she surely had some specialty items that
she'd drag out once in awhile, but I Think the choice was made to keep
things simple for the average American kitchen), you often wonder how
she pulls it all off.

Boron

[Boron Elgar]

On Sat, 8 Dec 2012 04:03:58 +0000 (UTC), Mike Duffy
<Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote:

>Boron Elgar <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in
>news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:06 -0600, "Attila Iskander"
>
>>> ... Baguette and Ficelle
>
>
>> .... You realize, of course, that you are aiming immediately
>> for the acme of the home baker's bread repertoire.
>
>
>Do you mean it's not citrus bread ????
>
>Incidentally, Meyers *have* arrived in stores around here, and I just went
>out and bought an implement designed specifically to remove zest from
>citrus fruits. And besides the Meyers, I bought a few normal lemons, limes,
>sunburst tangerines, midnight oranges, white grapefruit, and a honey
>pomello.

Did I brag here yet about the small Meyer lemon tree that is sitting
in my kitchen, fast ripening its baker's dozen of fruit?

>
>Much will end up in drinks, but rest assured that limonene molecules will
>be detectable in my kitchen this weekend at levels well-above threshold.
>
>My "serious" question is about spices. I usually use a bit of vanilla, but
>my recent research on lemon and orange bread recipes have occaisionally
>turned up cardamom.
>
>Ginger appears often with citrus fruits in oriental cuisine, and cardamom
>is related to ginger (and turmeric). Does anyone have any advice?
>
>Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
>not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.

Ginger's flavor is quite different from turmeric (of which there are
two basic cooking types - the orange and a white one). I tend to use
turmeric as much for color as for flavor, but don't think of it for
bread. Caradmom and ginger on the other hand, are basics in some
ethnic coffee cakes and breads. Both go well with citrus.

I grow ginger, galangal, and at time, both kinds of turmeric. Except
for the galangal, which require a decent Thai grocery, the ginger and
turmerics are usually avaialbe fresh at any East Asian product market.
Just put a pices 3-4 inches long in a pot of dirt and stand back. They
prefer shade or only dappled sun. Never direct sun for long. ONce they
get going (several months), you just dig up what you need and shove
the rest back into the dirt. I keep them outside in summer and
overwinter them inside. I live in NJ, and it gets quite nippy in
winter.

If you want to while away the hours looking at somethign, I direct you
here to The Man who has all the infomation you will ever need about
spices. I have been a fan of his for ages and ages.

http://gernot-katzers-spice-pages.com/engl/index.html

Boron

[Sir F.A. Rien]

>You could experiment with spice combinations in something small and
>simple: egg salad, tuna salad. Fry up small ground beef patties, each
>with a different spice combination. Or, before you bake a loaf, bake
>buns, each with different spices. Take notes as you go.

That's knot too big an F4 ... it's EC.

[Mike Duffy]

Boron Elgar <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in

news:r1j6c896j1n1ff3ij...@4ax.com:


> Caradmom and ginger.... go well with citrus.

This is the sort of general info I was looking for. Thanks.

> ... I live in NJ, and it gets quite nippy in winter.

I am in Quebec City. I am likely one or two "zones" nippier.

>
> If you want .. I direct you to ...
>
> http://gernot-katzers-spice-pages.com/engl/index.html

I have wanted to find a site like this for a long time. On first glance, it
appears to have exactly the sorts of info at the level of detail I am
interested in. Thank you very much.


I will probably try a small amount of ginger and / or cardamom powder on
the finished bread before I risk a batch.

I might also try a few drops of Angostura or rosewater in the batch. The
webpage for Angostura:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angostura_bitters

has a moderate number of citrus references. Apparently, it was developed to
hide the bitter taste of quinine. Thus it might help hide the limonin in my
recipe which has an abnormally high amount of zest. The rosewater should
add to the fruity flavour provided I don't overdo it.

My spider senses keep telling me to try powdered kola nut as well.

--
http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm

[graham]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:6si6c8lc7tpqj2j2m...@4ax.com...

IIRC, she was. I saw her make what we would think of as an ideal dough and
then add more flour.

[The Cook]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:53 -0500, Boron Elgar
<boron...@hootmail.com> wrote:

>Did I brag here yet about the small Meyer lemon tree that is sitting
>in my kitchen, fast ripening its baker's dozen of fruit?

I am very envious. We did not get any Mayer lemons. Had some
blossoms but no fruit. I have a Key Lime and a Mexican Lime. Right
now both of the lime trees are blooming like mad and setting some
fruit in the greenhouse.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message

news:6si6c8lc7tpqj2j2m...@4ax.com...

And she was right, you really don't need a lot of "specialized" pots and
pans to cook food.
Most of the specialized stuff sold at places like Williams-Sonoma and other
kitchen supply stores are easily duplicated by standard functional pots and
pans and hand tools.

[Boron Elgar]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 14:36:21 -0500, The Cook <susan_...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 09:26:53 -0500, Boron Elgar
><boron...@hootmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Did I brag here yet about the small Meyer lemon tree that is sitting
>>in my kitchen, fast ripening its baker's dozen of fruit?
>
>
>I am very envious. We did not get any Mayer lemons. Had some
>blossoms but no fruit. I have a Key Lime and a Mexican Lime. Right
>now both of the lime trees are blooming like mad and setting some
>fruit in the greenhouse.

I hope it all ripens for you.

My kefir limes have never even flowered. I have had several through
the years. The current one is quite large, although its origin is
unremembered. It may not be grafted, in which case it may take 4 or
even more years from now to fruit, but it is much, much larger than
the Meyer.

I picked the Meyer up at a nursery last spring. It was quite small,
damn cheap, and had 2 blossoms on it. I was surprised to see the
flowers and with repotting, it thrived all summer, blooming and
setting prolifically. The Meyers are just coming into the local
markets now, so the tree is behaving quite well. My concern for it is
aphids and scale over the winter.

Boron

[Canth]

On Sat, 08 Dec 2012 13:54:27 +0000, invalidd
<inva...@invalidd.invalidd> wrote:

>Tesseract wrote:
>> On 07-Dec-12 8:51 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Duffy <Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote:
>>>
>
>>>
>>>> Perhaps a tiny amount of turmeric might not curry a bad flavour. I would
>>>> not want to ruin a loaf by notional aromatics or spice administration.
>>>
>>>
>
>>
>> Turmeric is a very mild spice, often used mainly for the colour.
>
>I use turmeric to add flavor to white rice since salt is a no-no
>nowadays. And the yellow color is quite attractive, if you like that
>sort of thing.

Supposed to have some beneficial properties as well. I use it when
steaming rice as well, and in the batter mix I make out of rice flour
for my daughter. It adds both colour and flavour.

>
>>
>> You could experiment with spice combinations in something small and
>> simple: egg salad, tuna salad. Fry up small ground beef patties, each
>> with a different spice combination. Or, before you bake a loaf, bake
>> buns, each with different spices. Take notes as you go.
>>
>
>Flavored cupcakes?
>
>(Personally I don't get cupcakes, but they're trendy and have turned
>into big business. There's even a sitcom about them, '2 Broke Girls'.)

And at least one "reality" show, cupcake wars.

AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
I've been ignored by better people than you.

[Joel Olson]

"Mike Duffy" <Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote in message
news:XnsA122EABDF1...@94.75.214.39...

Mike -

Speaking directly out of ignorance, I suggest considering:
cinnamon, cloves, ginger, yoghurt, raisins, flavoring the
glaze, and various flours and flour substitutes.

Some Indian recipes use tamarind - check out that spice store
on NW 36th, just west of the freeway.

Recipe Courtesy of Curtis Aikens

PICK OF THE DAY
SHOW #PD1C01
EXOTIC FRUITS

MANGO MACADAMIA NUT BREAD

1/2 cup (4 ounces) butter
1 cup sugar
3 large eggs
1 1/2 cups diced mango
2 teaspoon orange juice
1/2 cup grated coconut
1/2 cup chopped macadamia nuts
2 cups all purpose flour
1 teaspoon baking soda
1 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon ground cinnamon

Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Grease and flour a loaf pan. In a bowl, cream the
butter and sugar together. Add the eggs and mix well. Add the mango, orange
juice, coconut, and macadamia nuts and combine. In another bowl, sift together
the flour, baking soda, salt and cinnamon. Add the dry ingredients to the mango
mixture. Stir until the batter combines. Pour into the loaf pan and bake for
about 1 hour.


Copyright 1998 TV FOOD NETWORK, G.P., All Rights Reserved

[Sir F.A. Rien]

On Sun, 9 Dec 2012 08:14:20 -0600, "Joel Olson" <joel....@cox.net>
sharpened a crayon and wrote:

>"Mike Duffy" <Use_guest...@website.in.sig> wrote in message
>news:XnsA122EABDF1...@94.75.214.39...
>> Boron Elgar <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in
>> news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 14:08:06 -0600, "Attila Iskander"

>>>Some Indian recipes use tamarind - check out that spice store
>on NW 36th, just west of the freeway.

Chuck out the groups you're spamming ...

[Janet Bostwick]

How about where she advises when making a rye loaf to lay it in a
towel and suspend the towel ends from a closed kitchen drawer? There's
got to be thousands -- well, hundreds -- of different ways to achieve
support for a loaf without hanging one from a drawer.
Janet US

[Boron Elgar]

Necessity and the mother of invention. I am guessing she was trying to
reproduce the circulation around the things that a proofer might
offer. Dunno, but now I will have to go out there and find it.

Boron

[Motzarella]

"Boron Elgar" wrote in message
news:baqec8hr0l2dpimah...@4ax.com...

There is always one certainty with following JC; she has a tendency to go
overboard. It would take several loads of a dishwasher to keep up with the
number of pots and pans she uses for a recipe!

Alan

[Attila Iskander]

"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...
>

> <Snip>..

>
> There are several bread baking videos in the Julia Child PBS series.
> Seek them out. Although some techniques have changed a bit (come into
> fashion, shall we say) since they were filmed, truly they are
> magnificent. Besides, she is a pisser.
>
> http://video.pbs.org/video/2250836815/
>

After watching this and other links I could not resist trying it..

But one point of frustration is the lack of info on water proportions from
Danielle Forestier.
Quantities for flour, yeast and salt are mentioned but water is not

Started out with my usual 1:0.5:1:1 (lb flour, lb water, tsp dry yeast, tsp
salt) proportion ratio,
- don't have small enough scale to weigh salt and dry yeast
1.5:0.75:1.5:1.5 in this case, but found the dough too dry and adjusted on
the fly to 1.5:0.90:1.5:1.5.
First attempt was premixed yeast, 2nd attempt was fresh yeast added later
(as per video), with ratio of
Baked at 425F in convection oven, on tiles.

Overall "good" result, with the following caveat.
1) Crumb was still more dense than expected.
2) Did not get good oven spring.
3) Crust was thin.
4) Crust turned a light gold.
But additional baking did not get crust darker. Instead, it was
turning into burned toast.
5) Fresh yeast is expensive ($2.99) for 2 oz.
Definitely need to find source for larger quantity
At this price my batch cost has quadrupled with yeast being 75% of
total cost of loaf.

A big benny was that bread flavor was greatly enriched by this long process.
Something that all consumers noticed right off.

Next batch will be 1.5:1.0:1.5:1.5, to get to a softer more workable initial
dough.

I'm also going to get a metric scale that go to 2+ kg. in 0.1 gram
increments, and then convert all the numbers to metric weight.

[graham]

" Attila Iskander" <Attila....@live.com> wrote in message
news:kafgir$fgc$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
> news:se0tb81icfhbfuhd6...@4ax.com...
>>
>> <Snip>..
>>
>> There are several bread baking videos in the Julia Child PBS series.
>> Seek them out. Although some techniques have changed a bit (come into
>> fashion, shall we say) since they were filmed, truly they are
>> magnificent. Besides, she is a pisser.
>>
>> http://video.pbs.org/video/2250836815/
>>
>
> After watching this and other links I could not resist trying it..
>
> But one point of frustration is the lack of info on water proportions from
> Danielle Forestier.
> Quantities for flour, yeast and salt are mentioned but water is not
>
> Started out with my usual 1:0.5:1:1 (lb flour, lb water, tsp dry yeast,
> tsp salt) proportion ratio,

That's a 50% hydration and is waaaay too low!

>
> Next batch will be 1.5:1.0:1.5:1.5, to get to a softer more workable
> initial dough.
>

Metric calculations are so much easier.
For strong bread flour I usually start with 500g and 325g of water (65%
hydration). The classic French formula would use 10g of salt, about 2 tsp,
but I usually cut that down a bit. My metric scale will weigh to the gram
so that's no problem. A tsp of instant yeast is adequate.
If you use a softer flour, cut back the water a bit but not below 300g.
Graham

[Attila Iskander]

"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:P6Kys.19995$sm1....@newsfe22.iad...

>
>
>>
> Metric calculations are so much easier.
> For strong bread flour I usually start with 500g and 325g of water (65%
> hydration). The classic French formula would use 10g of salt, about 2
> tsp, but I usually cut that down a bit. My metric scale will weigh to the
> gram so that's no problem. A tsp of instant yeast is adequate.
> If you use a softer flour, cut back the water a bit but not below 300g.
> Graham
>

(note to self - look up meaning of soft/hard flour)
:-)

I just left to rise a batch of 1.5:1.2:1.5:1.5 (see preceding post for
meaning) dough to rise
Felt much less "stiff" to knead

I also just found out that my nice local grocery chain, is more than happy
to supply me with 1 lb bricks of fresh yeast at $1 per, instead of the $3
per 2 oz I found elsewhere
All I need to do is drop a voicemail to their main bakery and they'll send a
brick by the in-house overnight delivery truck.
:-))

maybe Santa will bring me a nice metric scale for Xmas..
Actually, although a modern digital one is attractive, I really would like
one that was on the Julia Child show.
Clunky, needing more space..
But would also look much nicer on he shelf when not in use.

[Nemo]

It's better with no cloves on!

And why do so many people call turmeric, tumeric? Is it cozz it's
supposed to help stunt the growth of some kinds of tumer.

Or is it just vunlerable people who say tumeric?

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Boron Elgar wrote:
[snips]

> There are several bread baking videos in the Julia Child PBS series.
> Seek them out. Although some techniques have changed a bit (come into
> fashion, shall we say) since they were filmed, truly they are
> magnificent. Besides, she is a pisser.

LOL! That word, 'pisser', just took me on a tour of teh webz various
dictionaries of slang.

When I read it I thought straight away of one thing, then another. The
second <g> was how we used the term as young 'uns. If something bad happened
it was a pisser.

For instance;
[Friend] "Hi Shaun. Man, on the way over to visit I got a flat tyre and,
when I went to put the spare on it was flat too!"
[Me] Damn! What a pisser! What did you do? .......... etc.

However that didn't fit in the context of the above-quoted sentence. (Hence
the first [bad] thought.) On searching I see that there is another meaning.
In the US it's New England or Massachusetts slang for 'great' (or synonyms).
Are you from of near those areas Boron?

There were various other meanings from across the web, as there always is
when you're trying to suss out etymology. One site had; 2. Something very
funny (taken for to piss oneself laughing). There were more, however I'm
curious what *you* mean by it Boron. :)

Cheers,
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

[Boron Elgar]

I have no idea of the etymology, but this is a word i have heard and
used for ages. I used in as the second definition you see below.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pisser

piss�er (psr)
n. Vulgar Slang
1. One that is extremely disagreeable.
2. One that is extraordinary or remarkable.

Boron

[~misfit~]

> I have no idea of the etymology, but this is a word i have heard and
> used for ages. I used in as the second definition you see below.
>
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pisser
>
> piss�er (psr)
> n. Vulgar Slang
> 1. One that is extremely disagreeable.
> 2. One that is extraordinary or remarkable.

Thanks for that Boron. Do you mind me asking roughly where in the world you
are? I'm curious because, as above, I've never heard ths word used in that
way (or any positive way) and I was a child in England and came to New
Zealand as a teenager.

Oh, and I'm a student of the English langauge. I find it fascinating. I've
been getting regular email newsletters from http://www.worldwidewords.org/
for quite a few years now. Some people have odd interests huh? ;-)

Thanks.

[Boron Elgar]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:20:03 +1200, "~misfit~"

Born and raised in Detroit, moved to New York/New Jersey in early
adulthood.

You might be interested in a Usenet group called alt.usage.english.
Interesting folks there, from all over. You will find that interest of
yours is delightfully shared by many.

Boron

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 20:20:03 +1200, "~misfit~"
> <shaun.at...@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> Oh, and I'm a student of the English langauge. I find it
>> fascinating. I've been getting regular email newsletters from
>> http://www.worldwidewords.org/ for quite a few years now. Some
>> people have odd interests huh? ;-)
>>
>> Thanks.
>
>
> Born and raised in Detroit, moved to New York/New Jersey in early
> adulthood.
>
> You might be interested in a Usenet group called alt.usage.english.
> Interesting folks there, from all over. You will find that interest of
> yours is delightfully shared by many.

Thanks Boron, for the info on location and the info about the NG. I'll look
in and see (although WorldWideWords email list keeps me busy). :)

Best regards,