Bread sticking to pan
eclipsme
reliably bake a nice whole wheat bread. I read here about using steam to
help with the oven spring, and tried just pouring water on the baking
stone to make the steam, and into a cast iron frying pan, etc. I stopped
after reading of the harmful effects to my oven.
Lately I have been dripping water onto the loaves for their las rise as
well as just before putting them in the oven. The idea is to keep the
crust soft enough to allow the loaf to expand.
2 questions - any comments on this method and even if I am helping
anything at all by doing it, and 2nd, the water tends to get between the
dough and the pan. When baked this causes the bread to stick to the pan.
I have a hunch there is a better way...
Thanks,
Harvey
Dick Margulis
You can brush water onto the rising loaf with a large pastry brush (this
looks like a bristle paint brush, with bleached bristles and a blond
wood handle. It's made to withstand washing with soap and water, with a
waterproof rubber ferrule. You buy it at a restaurant supply store, not
a hardware store. Get a large one, at least two inches, preferably bigger.
To prevent sticking, grease the pan properly. Use lard or Crisco or some
other solid shortening, not oil, and don't skimp.
Barry Harmon
news:D9qdneddsMX48QLV...@supernews.com:
Go to an auto supply store and buy an automatic transmission funnel.
It's about 18 inches long and will cost about $5.
Place a baking pan on the floor of the oven before you heat the oven.
Heat a cup of water so it will boil when you are ready to put the bread
in the oven.
After you put the bread in the oven, use the funnel to pour the boiling
wter into the pan, then close the door. The distance of the funnel will
beep you from betting scalded by hot water vapor.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Barry,
The OP said he had read about harmful effects to the oven of putting water
into a pan to produce steam (????) and so had gone to this method of
dripping. We need to find out about the harmful effects and method that he
is talking about. It may have been something that he misunderstood.
Janet
Peggy
Have you tryed a garden sprayer . It will give you a more even coverage.
Peggy
eclipsme
metal, the steam accelerates corrosion I believe.
Harvey
eclipsme
bigger question is, steam or brushing water on the bread - does this
work? Are there alternatives that may be better?
I have been spraying with Pam. I suppose I could spray heavier, but I
could try the Crisco.
Dick Margulis
> Yes, I can see that this will control the water better. I guess the
> bigger question is, steam or brushing water on the bread - does this
> work? Are there alternatives that may be better?
During proof, you don't want the surface of the bread to dry out. In a
commercial bakery, bread is proofed in a closed box into which steam is
introduced, resulting in very high humidity. At home, you can try
Janet's method of proofing inside a large plastic bag that you've
inflated (by blowing into it before you seal it). In fact, you can place
a container of hot water inside the bag with the bread. This works
pretty well, but it doesn't keep the surface as wet as a commercial
proof box does. So brushing with water before and after proof is helpful
with some breads, particularly in the winter, when ambient air tends to
be overly dry. It also leaves some excess water on the surface when you
put the bread in the oven.
This is probably not as effective as live steam, but it may be as
effective as the various Rube Goldberg methods people have come up with
for adding steam during baking in the home oven (and Barry's is probably
as good as any and better than most).
>
> I have been spraying with Pam. I suppose I could spray heavier, but I
> could try the Crisco.
I don't recommend spraying with Pam, heavily or otherwise. Grease is the
word.
Dick
Janet Bostwick
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
snip>>
>> Barry,
>> The OP said he had read about harmful effects to the oven of putting
>> water into a pan to produce steam (????) and so had gone to this
>> method of dripping. We need to find out about the harmful effects
>> and method that he is talking about. It may have been something
>> that he misunderstood. Janet
>>
>>
> Hi Janet,
> Have you tryed a garden sprayer . It will give you a more even
> coverage. Peggy
Thank you Peggy. It was the original poster that was having problems. In
those cases where I want water on the top of the loaf, I just use a small
hand sprayer, otherwise I use the cast iron skillet and boiling water.
Janet
Ed B.
Anything you cook in an oven will produce some steam. Ovens are made to
withstand that, the sides and top are often coated with something (mine
is enameled).
--
~)< Love & Peace Ed B.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion.
Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom
they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less
easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side.
-Aristotle
We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association,
covenant to affirm and promote:
the right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our
congregations and in society at large. -Unitarian Universalist 5th
Principle
eclipsme
Sounds like this will stop the sticking where water gets between the
dough and the pan.
Thanks,
Harvey
Dick Margulis
> Grease = Crisco?
>
> Sounds like this will stop the sticking where water gets between the
> dough and the pan.
>
> Thanks,
> Harvey
Harvey,
"Grease is the word" is the first line of a song in the musical "Grease!"
But yes, Crisco is grease (unless you heard the same joke in fifth grade
that I did, in which case you know that Crisco is shortening, but I
digress). The point is that you want straight fat, not a mixture of fat,
water, and emulsifiers. And you want solid fat so it doesn't run down
the side and leave too little near the top.
Dick
Barry Harmon
One way to keep the surface damp is to cover it with a towel and spritz
the towel with water every so often -- less in summer, more in winter.
Barry
eclipsme
Bertie Doe
"Dick Margulis" < wrote in message
> eclipsme wrote:
>> Grease = Crisco?
>>
>> Sounds like this will stop the sticking where water gets between the
>> dough and the pan.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harvey
>
> Harvey,
>
> "Grease is the word" is the first line of a song in the musical "Grease!"
>
> But yes, Crisco is grease (unless you heard the same joke in fifth grade
> that I did, in which case you know that Crisco is shortening, but I
> digress). The point is that you want straight fat, not a mixture of fat,
> water, and emulsifiers. And you want solid fat so it doesn't run down the
> side and leave too little near the top.
>
> Dick
>
tried olive oil to prevent sticking. This was a big mistake as the sticking
was worse. I agree Dick, lard is great. I melt half ounce in the micowave
(de-frost setting) and brush it on. Within 5 mins, the lard has re-set,
giving a nice firm even layer. Post bake, the mini loaves just drop out. :-)
Bertie
Dick Margulis
>>
> 2 months ago, when I swapped from one large loaf pan to 12 mini pans, I
> tried olive oil to prevent sticking. This was a big mistake as the sticking
> was worse. I agree Dick, lard is great. I melt half ounce in the micowave
> (de-frost setting) and brush it on. Within 5 mins, the lard has re-set,
> giving a nice firm even layer. Post bake, the mini loaves just drop out. :-)
> Bertie
>
>
Brushing it on is fine for the small quantities we deal with at home.
The technique used by the oven man in the commercial bakery where I once
worked was this: He put a No. 10 can in the oven with a large dollop of
lard (we got it in 50 lb blocks, so he didn't measure, he just scooped).
After a few minutes, it was melted and he took the can out of the oven
and put it on his bench. Then he dipped a rag made of an old white
jersey undershirt (laundered, he insisted, before he brought if from
home) and used that to wipe lard onto sheet pans and into loaf tins
(always going heavy on the corner seams). He used a one-inch round
bristle brush for the muffin tins.
ZerkonX
> When baked this causes the bread to stick to the pan.
I treat pans and forms much like cast iron. Very rarely will I use soap
on them and NEVER EVER scrub them. They maintain a constant 'film' of oil.
When and if soap has to be used, they need to be liberally re-oiled. I
use a commercial pan release spray which I guess is the same as PAM or
whatever is best now.
Drip water, bad. Brush water, good.
Biggest hassle I have had with wheat bread is the top drying out, even a
little, before it hits the oven. Drafts, bad. Proof container, good.
Have given up on steam. The results are not worth it to me considering
the wear caused by the steam > water. I miss the excitement though!
flitterbit
> eclipsme wrote:
>> Yes, I can see that this will control the water better. I guess the
>> bigger question is, steam or brushing water on the bread - does this
>> work? Are there alternatives that may be better?
>
> During proof, you don't want the surface of the bread to dry out. In a
> commercial bakery, bread is proofed in a closed box into which steam is
> introduced, resulting in very high humidity. At home, you can try
> Janet's method of proofing inside a large plastic bag that you've
> inflated (by blowing into it before you seal it). In fact, you can place
> a container of hot water inside the bag with the bread. This works
> pretty well, but it doesn't keep the surface as wet as a commercial
> proof box does.
I've never had or used a commercial proofing box so have no basis for
comparison, but Janet's method -- dough in its proofing bowl into large
plastic bag, inflate, seal up, with or without a container of boiling
water in the bag (I use a 2-cup Pyrex measure filled with boiling water)
-- works wonderfully well in my cool, dry kitchen; the dough's surface
stays quite moist and there's no skin formation or tearing.
>
<snipped remainder>
flitterbit
> eclipsme wrote:
>> Yes, I can see that this will control the water better. I guess the
>> bigger question is, steam or brushing water on the bread - does this
>> work? Are there alternatives that may be better?
>
> During proof, you don't want the surface of the bread to dry out. In a
> commercial bakery, bread is proofed in a closed box into which steam is
> introduced, resulting in very high humidity. At home, you can try
> Janet's method of proofing inside a large plastic bag that you've
> inflated (by blowing into it before you seal it). In fact, you can place
> a container of hot water inside the bag with the bread. This works
> pretty well, but it doesn't keep the surface as wet as a commercial
> proof box does.
I've never had or used a commercial proofing box so have no basis for
comparison, but Janet's method -- dough in its proofing bowl into large
plastic bag, inflate, seal up, with or without a container of boiling
water in the bag (I use a 2-cup Pyrex measure filled with boiling water)
-- works wonderfully well in my cool, dry kitchen; the dough's surface
stays quite moist and there's no skin formation or tearing.
>
Oh, and I've been meaning to write for a long time, thanks very much for
the valuable tip, Janet; it's a terrific addition to my bread-baking
process!
<snipped remainder>
Boron Elgar
wrote:
I often use a large plastic bag when I do a long, cool proof/ferment
over night. I stole that idea from Janet & just ran in a colder
direction. (Thanks, Janet!!)
I do think that most folks have an easy way of creating a proof-box,
though, with use of a microwave oven. It is a closed environment that
can be kept warm and moist with a bowl of hot water, or cool and moist
with a spritz of water and a bowl of ice cubes. I have even more temp
control with my over-the-range microwave, as I can turn on the range
light & it keeps things warmer.
Self-cleaning ovens work well, too, though there is more air
circulation and likelihood of skin forming on unprotected dough.
I do admit, though, that I prefer cool rise times to warm ones, even
in the winter. The longer I can get something to proof, the happier I
am.
Boron
Mary Fisher
"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a772e4dfpoicio9m6...@4ax.com...
...
>
> I do admit, though, that I prefer cool rise times to warm ones, even
> in the winter. The longer I can get something to proof, the happier I
> am.
>
> Boron
One method here (Britain) was to put the dough in a bucket of cold water.
With great trepidation I tried it once, after deciding that a batch of dough
wasn't all that expensive to reproduce, and it was worth a go.
It works!
Mary
flitterbit
that a try this winter.
>
> I do think that most folks have an easy way of creating a proof-box,
> though, with use of a microwave oven. It is a closed environment that
> can be kept warm and moist with a bowl of hot water, or cool and moist
> with a spritz of water and a bowl of ice cubes. I have even more temp
> control with my over-the-range microwave, as I can turn on the range
> light & it keeps things warmer.
>
> Self-cleaning ovens work well, too, though there is more air
> circulation and likelihood of skin forming on unprotected dough.
>
> I do admit, though, that I prefer cool rise times to warm ones, even
> in the winter. The longer I can get something to proof, the happier I
> am.
>
> Boron
>
better job of planning ahead instead of suddenly realizing we need bread
and opting for a process that provides bread for dinner if I start it in
the morning.
flitterbit
Boron Elgar
Easier just to put it in the fridge, though, isn't it?
Boron
Mary Fisher
"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hootmail.com> wrote in message
news:i8j2e4ts9oetsn8u3...@4ax.com...
There was a time when few people had a fridge, we didn't when I first tried
the bucket method. Bread has been made for far longer than fridges :-)
But even now most British domestic fridges aren't large enough to
accommodate a bag of dough as well as all the other things which are kept in
there. My kitchen fridge is about 4' tall x 2' wide and deep (exernally) and
that's regarded as large, most are under-counter size. Our kitchens aren't
as big as yours :-)
I have another fridge, in a shed where I keep the large chest freezer, most
people don't. But it would be easier to put the dough into a bucket of water
than go down the garden with it - and remember to remove it.
In my case our house isn't as over-heated as most, our ch thermostat is set
at 10C (about 50F) so I don't have a problem with getting long
fermentation - except in the summer when it's warm or if I'm cooking or
baking in the oven. Then I soak a towel in water, drape it over the dough
and it cools by evaporation (no use of fossil fuel). I'm amused when
people - and recipes - instruct us to put the dough in a warm place to rise.
What's the rush?
Mary
Janet Bostwick
I use the method for overnight proof in the refrigerator as well. No extra
moisture is needed as the dough breathes quite a bit on its own.
Janet
Janet Bostwick
Once you have your cool rise technique figured out, it adapts quite well to
your schedule. At one time I was making up a very solid, large (20-30
ounce) sourdough preferment (not a starter) that I was able to use on
alternate days to make bread. I used a third of the preferement to make the
dough and then overnight final -proofed it. In that way I had fresh bread
every other day and was always ready to make another batch with little
fuss.
Janet
Boron Elgar
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:06:45 -0400, flitterbit <fric...@gmail.com>
>> I do admit, though, that I prefer cool rise times to warm ones, even
>> in the winter. The longer I can get something to proof, the happier I
>> am.
>>
>> Boron
>
>I use the method for overnight proof in the refrigerator as well. No extra
>moisture is needed as the dough breathes quite a bit on its own.
>Janet
>
My problem is that I make multiple loaves at a time and all those
blown up bags take up a lot of fridge.
Boron
Janet Bostwick
That's true. And you really need fridge temperatures as anything a little
warmer will not stop the dough rise. I can get 3 boules on one half shelf.
I either bag them separetly or together (separately preferred to keep them
from growing together. I generally put them on a sheet pan for easier
handling. Do you allow the dough to have any rise at all before putting
them in the fridge? I do, but just the very slightest indication of
movement only, otherwise I have a hard time controlling the fridge rise.
Janet
Boron Elgar
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:
Very often I mix up a high hydration combo, let it autolyse, add in
the salt, then stick it in the fridge with no kneading whatsoever. I
shape it and let it rise the next day. Other times I let the let the
dough rise with a few stretch and folds, shape, then refrigerate.
I go out of my way to try something different all the time, just to
push the envelope of how resilient flour and water can be under
conditions that range from utter indifference to close tending.
Boron
Janet Bostwick
snip
> I go out of my way to try something different all the time, just to
> push the envelope of how resilient flour and water can be under
> conditions that range from utter indifference to close tending.
>
> Boron
For some reason, I am unwilling to go that far. I'm sure it is my heritage.
I am into streamlining the process. Predictable method and results. o{
Janet
Boron Elgar
I am just as crazy with regular cooking, too. I read a recipe that
gives me ideas, but almost never follow one. I improvise as I go
along.
Only in baking cakes or pastries do I adhere more strictly to the
scripts - most times.
As for bread, I decided long ago that flour is cheap (ok, not so cheap
now as it was, but it is inexpensive, comparatively, to decent bread
that one can buy) and that I was going to get as creative as I could.
It is very difficult to get a real dud. I never wind up with anything
inedible. Oh, there may be efforts that I will not bother with again,
a funny looking loaf or two, or I may decide to tweak with different
grains, hydrations, shaping, proofing or oven temp, but I enjoy the
excitement of it all. We jokingly call it wonderbread.
Boron
Mary Fisher
...
>>
>
> I am just as crazy with regular cooking, too. I read a recipe that
> gives me ideas, but almost never follow one. I improvise as I go
> along.
Same here. I never seem to have ALL the ingredients to follow a specific
recipe and I'm not going shopping for one or two small items. And I'm not a
good enough planner to make menus in advance so that I know what I'll need
:-)
>
> Only in baking cakes or pastries do I adhere more strictly to the
> scripts - most times.
Well, OK, most times. I suppose. But mostly I bake by experience, when
you've doine it for sixty years you don't need to be reminded. Until the
memory begins to fail!
>
> As for bread, I decided long ago that flour is cheap (ok, not so cheap
> now as it was, but it is inexpensive, comparatively, to decent bread
> that one can buy)
YES! Or even indecent 'bread'.
> and that I was going to get as creative as I could.
> It is very difficult to get a real dud. I never wind up with anything
> inedible. Oh, there may be efforts that I will not bother with again,
> a funny looking loaf or two, or I may decide to tweak with different
> grains, hydrations, shaping, proofing or oven temp, but I enjoy the
> excitement of it all. We jokingly call it wonderbread.
I like that, I hope I remember it. But even if something is apparently a
failure there's always some opportunity to use it in some other form.
Mary
>
> Boron
bob
and allow the oil to polymerize as you use it regularly just like cast iron.
Your pans will get black but then I suppose they are supposed to be that
color. It drives people who like clean looking pans insane, but they can
buy their own pans.
Mom always liked using margarine wrappers to grease pans with, but that was
then. A vegetable shortening works best, but I am cheap and use vegetable
oil instead. If the pan is well seasoned through use you have less trouble.
You can flour a pan like for a cake, but I haven't had much luck with that.
"ZerkonX" <Z...@X.net> wrote in message news:pan.2008.08...@X.net...
Dick Margulis
> I agree. buy the pressed steel pans, I am not so hot on the aluminum ones,
> and allow the oil to polymerize as you use it regularly just like cast iron.
> Your pans will get black but then I suppose they are supposed to be that
> color. It drives people who like clean looking pans insane, but they can
> buy their own pans.
> Mom always liked using margarine wrappers to grease pans with, but that was
> then. A vegetable shortening works best, but I am cheap and use vegetable
> oil instead. If the pan is well seasoned through use you have less trouble.
> You can flour a pan like for a cake, but I haven't had much luck with that.
>
Lard is the first choice, unless you avoid it for dietary or religious
reasons. Solid vegetable shortening (Crisco) is the second choice. There
is no third choice. I'm not saying you haven't been able to force oil to
work for you eventually, but it's far easier to use a fat that's
crystalline at room temperature.
Bertie Doe
"Dick Margulis" wrote in message
> Lard is the first choice, unless you avoid it for dietary or religious
> reasons. Solid vegetable shortening (Crisco) is the second choice. There
> is no third choice. I'm not saying you haven't been able to force oil to
> work for you eventually, but it's far easier to use a fat that's
> crystalline at room temperature.
With my folded steel mini-pans, I can get two bakes from one application of
lard. There's enough residual lard, left on the surface from the 1st bake.
bob
Granted, Oleomargarine is....oleomargarine, but I understand that the world
became a better place when they allowed it to be pre-colored and we could do
away with the color capsules.
Three problems: I am too cheap to buy crisco, I am predjudiced against
lard, and I have margarine and vegetable oil on hand.
Oil will give me enough release if I make the bread heavy enough
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
news:6nh4l0F...@mid.individual.net...
Dave Bell
> The trouble is that it is...lard.
Why?
John Andrews in Knoxville
> The trouble is that it is...lard.
>
> Granted, Oleomargarine is....oleomargarine, but I understand that the world
> became a better place when they allowed it to be pre-colored and we could do
> away with the color capsules.
>
> Three problems: I am too cheap to buy crisco, I am predjudiced against
> lard, and I have margarine and vegetable oil on hand.
OK. Use either margarine or oil the grease the pan, then flour
it like a cake pan. The bread will come out easily without
sticking.
John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee