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Is it stretch-and-fold or a method of shaping? holes/no holes

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Dee Randall

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Jul 14, 2005, 7:01:55 AM7/14/05
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I made my own combination of 'French Bread/Pan Ordinaire' using ingredient
quantities of approximately 73.9% hydration, coming from

Bread, Treuille p. 72. As I was using the bottom of the barrel on a couple
of sacks of ap and bread flour, I only weighed both flours that I mixed
together (there seemed to be about equal amount). I used the fp, putting in
flour and water, mixing to let sit for ½ hour. Then I added dissolved salt
in a wee bit of the water and dissolved yeast in a wee bit of the water
until mixed, letting it rise for a couple of hours, cut it into two pieces
and let it sit about 15 minutes, then shaped it and let it rise.

My question is about the shaping/stretch-and-fold method I used.

The method I used to shape the bread is from

http://www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm#Easy%20yet%20good%20French%20bread

quote, Press each ball of dough into a rough rectangle about 4x6 inches and
1" thick. Fold one long edge about 2/3 of the way over the top and press to
seal the dough. Repeat with the other long edge. Fold the resulting "log" in
half lengthwise and press to seal. End quote.

Would this be a version of a stretch-and-fold method, or would it just be a
method of shaping.

I did not weigh each ball of dough, but they appeared to be pretty similar.
I then rolled them into a 14" baguette and let them rise in a French
baguette (holey) pan until I considered them increased in size by 50%. When
I cut them, one had nice (glutinous) holes, the other didn't. As they were
so similar in size, I don't know which had the holes. Another thing I
noticed was that the bread that did have nice holes, there was a portion in
the bread that did not have holes. (I was not aiming/wishing for holes in
my bread; just making some necessary bread for the day and being a little
care-free.)

Thanks for any comments about the stretch-and-fold vs. shaping, and re the
fact that one had holes and one didn't.

Dee


barry

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Jul 15, 2005, 8:54:44 AM7/15/05
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>
> My question is about the shaping/stretch-and-fold method I used.
>
> The method I used to shape the bread is from
>
> http://www.pgacon.com/cooking.htm#Easy%20yet%20good%20French%20bread
>
>
>
> quote, Press each ball of dough into a rough rectangle about 4x6 inches
> and 1" thick. Fold one long edge about 2/3 of the way over the top and
> press to seal the dough. Repeat with the other long edge. Fold the
> resulting "log" in half lengthwise and press to seal. End quote.
>
>
>
> Would this be a version of a stretch-and-fold method, or would it just be
> a method of shaping.
>
> I did not weigh each ball of dough, but they appeared to be pretty
> similar. I then rolled them into a 14" baguette and let them rise in a
> French baguette (holey) pan until I considered them increased in size by
> 50%. When I cut them, one had nice (glutinous) holes, the other didn't.
> As they were so similar in size, I don't know which had the holes.
> Another thing I noticed was that the bread that did have nice holes, there
> was a portion in the bread that did not have holes. (I was not
> aiming/wishing for holes in my bread; just making some necessary bread for
> the day and being a little care-free.)
>
>
>
> Thanks for any comments about the stretch-and-fold vs. shaping, and re the
> fact that one had holes and one didn't.
>
> Dee
>
>

Dee,

I would consider this a shaping technique, not a Fold a la Hamelman. This
fold-over technique is a fairly standard shaping technique for this shape
loaf.

Hamelman's folding takes place during bulk fermentation, while this folding
is after bulk fermentation and before final rise.

As for why your loaves reacted differently, that may well be just one of
those things. If you treated the loaves the same and your oven doesn't have
any obvious hot or ocld areas, there may be no reason, just the luck of the
draw.

Barry


Dee Randall

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Jul 15, 2005, 10:44:47 AM7/15/05
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"barry" <john...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:omOBe.11538$4Q1....@fe09.lga...
Thanks so much for your response, Barry.
"During bulk fermentation." (Musing by Dee). Let's see. Basically,
1) Mix together all ingredients and let rise in a bowl a couple of hours.
2) Take out of bowl, divide into two pieces, let sit 15-20 minutes.
3) Shape into batards, boules, or etc. Let rise while heating oven basically
45 minutes to 1 hr.)

Barry, just to get it straight. Are you saying that, going by my above
1,2,3 steps, that 'during bulk fermentation' is when I take the dough out of
the bowl, and BEFORE I divide it into two pieces, that that is the "DURING
bulk fermentation"? Or is 'during bulk fermentation' after I've divided it
into two pieces and not yet shaped it? I would assume that it is before
I've divided, but want to make sure of what you are saying. And that is the
time that Hamelman does stretch and fold: 'during this bulk fermentation.'
Thanks, more than you know,
Dee


Gordon Hayes

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Jul 15, 2005, 11:28:10 AM7/15/05
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"Dee Randall" <deed...@shentel.net> wrote in message
news:11dfivf...@corp.supernews.com...
>
<SNIP>

> Thanks so much for your response, Barry.
> "During bulk fermentation." (Musing by Dee). Let's see. Basically,
> 1) Mix together all ingredients and let rise in a bowl a couple of hours.
> 2) Take out of bowl, divide into two pieces, let sit 15-20 minutes.
> 3) Shape into batards, boules, or etc. Let rise while heating oven
basically
> 45 minutes to 1 hr.)
>
> Barry, just to get it straight. Are you saying that, going by my above
> 1,2,3 steps, that 'during bulk fermentation' is when I take the dough out
of
> the bowl, and BEFORE I divide it into two pieces, that that is the "DURING
> bulk fermentation"? Or is 'during bulk fermentation' after I've divided it
> into two pieces and not yet shaped it? I would assume that it is before
> I've divided, but want to make sure of what you are saying. And that is
the
> time that Hamelman does stretch and fold: 'during this bulk fermentation.'
> Thanks, more than you know,
> Dee
>
>

The bulk fermentation is the first rise. After you mix the dough and knead
it you set it aside for a period of time to raise. This is what is called
the 'bulk fermentation'. The length of time depends on several factors.
After this initial rise, you can divide, stretch/fold, and shape the dough.

Sometimes bakers do a second rise before shaping. I read of one Amish bread
recipe that had a total of five or six risings before baking the bread. But
generally two or three risings are the norm. One Challah bread recipe I used
called for three risings. Two bulk before shaping and one final afterwards.
Using a third rising improved the flavor.

Gordon


Dee Randall

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Jul 15, 2005, 11:42:56 AM7/15/05
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"Gordon Hayes" <sono...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:eCQBe.1736$dX5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
<snip>

After this initial rise, you can divide, stretch/fold, and shape the dough.

So, my #2 will now read
2) Take out of bowl; divide into two pieces (for my recipe); let sit 15/20
minutes; 'stretch/fold' these two pieces however many times/however many
minutes in between folds'; shape the pieces of stretched/folded dough.
Still reading, deciphering, contemplating and working the stretch and folds
info in the FAQ. Without you all, I'm not going to make it with the s/f.
So simple a procedure I know, to those who know it.
Thanks again,
Dee

Janet Bostwick

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Jul 15, 2005, 12:04:01 PM7/15/05
to

"Dee Randall" <deed...@shentel.net> wrote in message
news:11dfmc2...@corp.supernews.com...

>
> "Gordon Hayes" <sono...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:eCQBe.1736$dX5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
snip

> So, my #2 will now read
> 2) Take out of bowl; divide into two pieces (for my recipe); let sit
> 15/20 minutes; 'stretch/fold' these two pieces however many times/however
> many minutes in between folds'; shape the pieces of stretched/folded
> dough.
> Still reading, deciphering, contemplating and working the stretch and
> folds info in the FAQ. Without you all, I'm not going to make it with the
> s/f. So simple a procedure I know, to those who know it.
> Thanks again,
> Dee
>
No. Read Barry's post again. Gordon unnecessarily confused an already
confused person by using the term stretch/fold. "Stretch and Fold" as a
Method is utilized to develop a wet dough or a just plain used during
development of the dough during the time it would normally be doing the
first rise in the bowl. This rise in the bowl is called bulk fermentation.
During the time in the bowl, you would reach in to the dough and either
remove it to the bench or leave it in the bowl, grab a side, stretch it and
then fold it over and grab another side, stretch it and fold it onto the
dough mass etc. Don't you have access to any of John's posts to re-read the
extensive descriptions of this method?

There are many times during our handling of the dough that the dough may
suffer a stretch here and perhaps a fold there. This kind of stretch and
then fold is impossible to avoid during handling--think about it--but this
activity is not meant to develop the dough, it just happens as the dough
flops around in our hands or as we describe a way to get a lump of dough
into a shape that is appropriate for a loaf. Use your noodle and imagine
what is going on.

Janet


barry

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Jul 15, 2005, 12:54:04 PM7/15/05
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Dee,

Janet has it right. The Hamelman folding is done at one or two times during
the first rise.

Hamelman recommends sort of as follows: If you rise for 2 hours, take the
dough out of the bowl after an hour and fold it, then put it back into the
bowl. If you want, you can fold after 45 minutes, then after another 45
minutes, then let the dough rise for another 30 minutes. Folding is used to
redistribute the gases and yeast food so the yeast can get working hard
again.

After the first rise, you can do whatever you want with the dough.

Barry


Dee Randall

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Jul 15, 2005, 1:09:20 PM7/15/05
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"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:11dfnjg...@corp.supernews.com...
Thank you very much, Janet.
Dee


Dee Randall

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Jul 15, 2005, 1:10:35 PM7/15/05
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"barry" <john...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:MSRBe.15654$js.1...@fe10.lga...
Thanks for your further clarification, Barry.
Dee


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