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Stretch 'n' fold

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Wcsjohn

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Oct 30, 2002, 6:03:54 PM10/30/02
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I've been investigating just how important rapid mixing is for slack dough and
have come to the conclusion that stretch 'n' fold is at least as important a
step as mixing in the development of the gluten structure in slack doughs.

I've made several batches of Focaccia (Reinhart's formula) using wildly
different mixing methods, dough hook for 9 minutes at 160 rpm. Dough hook at
100 rpm for 12 minutes, paddle at lowest speed for 4 minutes, hand ( spoon to
be more accurate) for 5 minutes. I've then divided each batch into 2 parts,
fermented 1 in a bowl with standard knockdowns as many times as I've stretched
and folded the dough in the other half. The s&f dough was uniformly
superior in every structural respect, higher oven spring, bigger holes, more
elastic crumb with the taste identical to my, admittedly jaded, palate.

Tonight I've started a batch and I'm going to s&f the dough 4 times then retard
overnight and give 2 more s&f tomorrow before shaping and baking. That brings
the dough up to the number of rolls and folds in ready to bake puff paste. I
expect very elastic dough will result. Next day - it did, VERY elastic, took 4
tries and an hour before I could dimple the dough to fit the pans. The result
was spectacular. I have small .jpg images (3 files < 300k) if anyone's
interested.

It is appearing more and more likely, certainly with the likes of Focaccia and
Ciabattta, that the heavy mixing can be skipped if s&f is used for gluten
development. The next step for me is to use a less sloppy formula, Chollah
maybe and test the s&f method on a dough that is not normally treated in that
fashion.

Hi Ho, Hi Ho to stretch and fold the dough!

Confused? I am!

John

Janet Bostwick

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Oct 30, 2002, 7:42:11 PM10/30/02
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"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
news:20021030180354...@mb-fm.aol.com...
I'd like to see, John. You can email them to me direct if you like. Sounds
very interesting. Over the years I have read reports from several others
that recommend stretching several times during the fermentation.
Janet


Wcsjohn

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Oct 31, 2002, 4:35:37 AM10/31/02
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As you command, so shall it be. Even as I write, the electronic ghosts of
Focaccia wing their way to you.

John

llizard

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Oct 31, 2002, 8:02:18 AM10/31/02
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In article <us0v30o...@corp.supernews.com>, "Janet Bostwick"

<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
>"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
>news:20021030180354...@mb-fm.aol.com...
>> I [...] have come to the conclusion that stretch 'n' fold is at
>> least as important a step as mixing in the development of the
>> gluten structure in slack doughs.
[snip]

>Over the years I have read reports from several others
>that recommend stretching several times during the fermentation.

Because I make bread by hand (no machines available), kneading slack dough
has been a major adventure. It's very difficult to knead it enough by
hand. However, I have just been entirely convinced about using this
stretch and fold method. I first read about it in Maggie Glezer's "Artisan
Baking Across America" (Acme's Rustic Baguettes). The difference in the
finished bread is unbelievable. I have been concentrating on the "rustic
baguette" recipe (I make two boules) so haven't yet tried the stretch and
fold with the really slack dough breads that I make. But I definitely
will. The dough becomes infinitely more silky and manageable with each
stretch and fold.

Glezer does caution that there should be about 20 minutes between the
stretch and folds and that these stretch and folds should be done at the
beginning of the rise. She recommends 3 stretch and folds, or 4 if one
thinks one hasn't kneaded enough. Then that the dough should be allowed to
rise undisturbed for the remaining time.


--
llizard aka ejm llizard@idirec+.ca
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If you are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "idirct"

Janet Bostwick

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Oct 31, 2002, 11:27:21 AM10/31/02
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"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
news:20021031043537...@mb-bj.aol.com...

> >I'd like to see, John. You can email them to me direct if you like.
Sounds
> >very interesting. Over the years I have read reports from several
others
> >that recommend stretching several times during the fermentation.
> >Janet
> >
> As you command, so shall it be. Even as I write, the electronic ghosts of
> Focaccia wing their way to you.
>
> John
Nice, John! I just brought home some 'Ciabatta Rolls' by La Brea Bakery(of
"Breads from the La Brea Bakery" fame--although I don't believe it is still
owned by Nancy Silverton, and of course, these were probably par-baked) from
Costco. The interior structure of your bread and the interior of their
rolls looks the same. I wonder if you could stir your dough to a wet mass,
do an autolyse, and then dump the stuff out onto the counter and begin
stretch and fold with a bench knife? Or if there would even be an advantage
to doing so??? Nice job.

Janet


Wcsjohn

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Oct 31, 2002, 2:17:18 PM10/31/02
to

Did that with a batch of chocolate focaccia last night, just mixed roughly with
a wet spoon then onto the bench, roughly squared off, s&f 5 times, perfectly
mixed and elastic dough. I'm in the kitchen a lot so I just s&f whenever I go
near the bread - it's a very lazy way of making bread!

John

Wcsjohn

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Oct 31, 2002, 3:13:34 PM10/31/02
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Now that's VERY interesting, I was wondering if the method worked at lower
hydrations than the 80 - 85% I use most of the time - I know it works at 70%
from correspondence with Ed Okie - at what hydration are you running your
Rustic Baguettes?

John

Rose Kish

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Oct 31, 2002, 4:13:33 PM10/31/02
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"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
> Tonight I've started a batch and I'm going to s&f the dough 4 times then
retard
> overnight and give 2 more s&f tomorrow before shaping and baking. That
brings
> the dough up to the number of rolls and folds in ready to bake puff paste.
I
> expect very elastic dough will result. Next day - it did, VERY elastic,
took 4
> tries and an hour before I could dimple the dough to fit the pans. The
result
> was spectacular. I have small .jpg images (3 files < 300k) if anyone's
> interested.
>
> It is appearing more and more likely, certainly with the likes of Focaccia
and
> Ciabattta, that the heavy mixing can be skipped if s&f is used for gluten
> development. The next step for me is to use a less sloppy formula,
Chollah
> maybe and test the s&f method on a dough that is not normally treated in
that
> fashion.
>

John, have you got pictures of the dough pre-bake? No matter, I'd like to
see too. (I always had a problem with getting pictures of my dough in
progress - just too awkward and messy with floury hands and dh's fancy
camera.)


Lynn

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Nov 1, 2002, 3:28:26 PM11/1/02
to
Is there something unique about the stretching and folding you do? I would
be very interested in trying this out...I haven't made bread at home for a
while just because I can't get into the "kneading" mode. Is it simply
stretching...how much of a stretch?... and folding it over itself?

Thanks,
Lynn

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message

news:20021030180354...@mb-fm.aol.com...

Wcsjohn

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Nov 1, 2002, 5:14:27 PM11/1/02
to
>
>Is there something unique about the stretching and folding you do? I would
>be very interested in trying this out...I haven't made bread at home for a
>while just because I can't get into the "kneading" mode. Is it simply
>stretching...how much of a stretch?... and folding it over itself?
>
>Thanks,
>Lynn
>
It's not unique or original to me. Have you ever made puff pastry? It's just
like that.

Tip the dough out of the bowl, after mixing, onto a floured work surface.
Flour the dough, shape it into a rough square, accuracy is not as important as
puff paste, and leave for 20 minutes or so until the dough has relaxed. Then,
make sure the dough isn't sticking to the bench (I slide a floured bench knife
under the dough), flour your hands, grip one side of the dough and stretch it
horizontonally until that side is stretched to 3 x original length. Repeat with
the other side. You should now have a rectangle 3 times as wide as deep. Fold
1/3 of the dough up and inwards and then fold the other 1/3 over the top to
make the rough square again. Turn the square round through 90 degrees. Cover
and leave to relax and start rising. 20 minutes later, repeat the operation and
keep on repeating until the dough develops the elasticity you want, usually 3
- 4 folds.

It's worth using generous flour dustings for the stretch and then brushing
excess flour off the dough before the fold - the dough coalesces better and
you avoid thin lines of flour running through the dough.

The entire stretch 'n' fold, after a little practice, takes about 1 minute at
most.

John

Lynn

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Nov 1, 2002, 7:38:59 PM11/1/02
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Sounds easy enough...thanks, John. I'll try it this weekend.

Lynn

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message

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Rose Kish

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:06:04 AM11/2/02
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Thanks for sending the pics. Well Done!

I've used the stretch 'n' fold method in the past for my pain Poilane
recipe; it was best to redistribute the yeast to parts of the dough several
times over a given rising period allowing for sufficient feeding of the
gluten for extremely slack doughs. Some extreme hydration doughs sometimes
don't appear to respond to mixing, even after 6-10 minutes (machine). I
mainly used a spatula-folding method to strengthen the gluten to create a
stiffer, workable dough over time.

Can you clarify for me:
With the s-n-f bowl, was this batch machine-mixed to start with? Or did it
go straight to an autolyse and then to s-n-f stages? I wonder if skipping
machine kneading altogether with super wet dough and letting a loosely
hand-mixed long autolyse would do the trick just as well. By long autolyse,
I mean anywhere from 30+ minutes. And then proceed with the s-n-f. The
reason I ask is that I "flubbed" once and left the dough on autolyse and
then forgot the dough yet again after a minimal amount of mixing for most of
an afternoon; it had the most amazing ovenspring capacity with impressive
holes, just like a loaf I would get from the artisan bakery.

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message

news:20021030180354...@mb-fm.aol.com...

llizard

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:15:29 AM11/2/02
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In article <20021031151334...@mb-fh.aol.com>,

I'm afraid that I am a cup and spoon measurer. Glezer has baker's
percentages in the recipe and if I'm understanding it correctly, the
finished dough is about 50% (does this make sense?) The recipe that I use
is at

http://ejmtph.crosswinds.net/recipes/rusticbread.html#boule

Wcsjohn

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:45:27 AM11/2/02
to
>
>Thanks for sending the pics. Well Done!
>
>I've used the stretch 'n' fold method in the past for my pain Poilane
>recipe; it was best to redistribute the yeast to parts of the dough several
>times over a given rising period allowing for sufficient feeding of the
>gluten for extremely slack doughs. Some extreme hydration doughs sometimes
>don't appear to respond to mixing, even after 6-10 minutes (machine). I
>mainly used a spatula-folding method to strengthen the gluten to create a
>stiffer, workable dough over time.
>
>Can you clarify for me:
>With the s-n-f bowl, was this batch machine-mixed to start with? Or did it
>go straight to an autolyse and then to s-n-f stages? I wonder if skipping
>machine kneading altogether with super wet dough and letting a loosely
>hand-mixed long autolyse would do the trick just as well. By long autolyse,
>I mean anywhere from 30+ minutes. And then proceed with the s-n-f. The
>reason I ask is that I "flubbed" once and left the dough on autolyse and
>then forgot the dough yet again after a minimal amount of mixing for most of
>an afternoon; it had the most amazing ovenspring capacity with impressive
>holes, just like a loaf I would get from the artisan bakery.
>
The dough pictured in the Focacccia images was given a hand mix, big bowl metal
spoon dipped in water, for about a minute, left for 10 mins then a few more
strokes of he spoon and onto the floured counter to start the s&f. The first
fold needed a scraper to move the dough but after the second fold the dough was
springy enough to handle.

I've put a batch of Ciabatta on today WITHOUT making a Poolish last night -
it'll be on the counter most of the day being folded - lets's see if I can get
good results without preferment - in terms of structure, of course, the flavour
is unlikely to be as good.

I'm still astonished at the effect of a few gentle movements on the gluten. I
would estimate that 4 folds are equal to 10 minutes machine mixng in terms of
gluten development. At least!

John

Kathy

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Nov 2, 2002, 10:29:51 PM11/2/02
to
Hi John - I must have missed out somewhere on the stretch and fold theory of
bread makeing. Please send pictures to me vea e-mail. thanks in advance. Oh
by the way how can I get into the recipes and procedure, I'd like to try it.
Kathy

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
news:20021030180354...@mb-fm.aol.com...

Wcsjohn

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Nov 3, 2002, 6:40:11 AM11/3/02
to
>Hi John - I must have missed out somewhere on the stretch and fold theory of
>bread makeing. Please send pictures to me vea e-mail. thanks in advance. Oh
>by the way how can I get into the recipes and procedure, I'd like to try it.
>Kathy

Kathy

You haven't missed out, the formulae I use are unchanged, It's just that mixing
time is reduced and multiple stretch&fold applied over time, whilst the bread
is rising. It's a rediscovery of a very useful and widely applicable technique.

The way I make the Focaccia in the picture is the same as Reinhart's
description but, after an overnight rest, I do 2 more S&F before dimpling out
into pans.

If you don;'t have "Breadbaker's Apprentice" I'll post a full description of
that bread's making for you or, if you'd prefer bread that has more definition
and shape, I'll post the current version of my regular Ciabatta.

John

Kathy

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Nov 3, 2002, 9:18:19 AM11/3/02
to
Good Morning - I would appreciate your recipe very much. Some of the
language used I am not familiar with so please have pitty on this novice
bread maker and explain each step. Thanks John, your bread pictures were
wonderful. Kathy

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
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Wcsjohn

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Nov 3, 2002, 4:23:01 PM11/3/02
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>
>
>Good Morning - I would appreciate your recipe very much. Some of the
>language used I am not familiar with so please have pitty on this novice
>bread maker and explain each step. Thanks John, your bread pictures were
>wonderful. Kathy

It's not my recipe - the formula is Peter Reinhart's - the method is derived
from his - I use more folds and I have simplified some of the quantities.

Focaccia after (and greatly indebted to) Peter Reinhart.

This bread requires an overnight rest in the fridge for full flavour though a
very fine bread can be made easily in one day.

Makes 2 X 23 centimetre round Focaccia.

INGREDIENTS

500 grams of the highest protein content white flour you can find.
350 grams warm water
70 grams good olive oil
2 teaspoons salt
2 teaspoons instant (sometimes called fast-action) dried yeast
More olive oil for the tins and the proving dough - to taste - see later.
Salt for the tops of the loaves - to taste.

EQUIPMENT

A large mixing bowl, you want room to sweep the spoon under the dough.
A chopstick
A large metal spoon.
A small bowl or jug containig cold water to wet the spoon
2 X 25 cm round shallow, metal, pans.
A dough scraper often called a "bench knife".
A flour shaker
A pastry brush
Clingfilm
A food-grade plastic bag large enough to contain the dough.
A water spray mister
Bakestones - optional, they don't make that much difference in this bread.
A cooling rack.

MIXING

Put the flour salt and yeast into the bowl and mix. Add the water and oil and
stir with the chopstick (You wondered about that didn't you? Sounds crazy but
for initial rough mixing a chopstick is perfect.) to roughly combine. Dip the
spoon in the cold water and get under the roughly mixed dough in the bowl
stirring and scooping, 3 or 4 times. Wet the spoon again and scoop and stir the
dough. Repeat until the dough shows a little cohesion and forms a sticky mass
that balls when you scoop the spoon under it. Takes about about 2 minutes or
less for me. Leave the dough to relax for 10 minutes then dip and mix another
minute. Flour the counter well, wet the spoon again and use it to scrape the
wet glop in the bowl onto the counter. The mixture will not be smooth.

STRETCH AND FOLD 1

Flour the scraper and glop (Don't worry - it doesn't stay that sticky), and
shape it into a rough square cover with clingfilm and leave for 10 minutes.
Flour your hands, grip one side of the dough and pull it sideways until 3 X
original length and repeat for the other side, forming a rectangle. Fold one
third of the rectangle into the middle and then fold the remaining third over
the top of the first fold. Rotate the dough, horizontally through 90 degrees,
flour lightly, brush off excess flour, cover with clingfilm and leave in a
warm place for 20 minutes.

Repeat the stretching, folding and turning 3 times. The dough will be more
elastic and easier to handle after each fold.

If the dough sticks to the counter (it often does in the early stages), flour
the scraper and slide it under the dough to release it.

For best flavour you now need to slow down the fermentation by chilling the
dough overnight but if you don't want to wait you can proceed to stretch and
fold 2.

OVERNIGHT

Wrap the dough loosely in clingfilm, put into a plastic bag, seal with a tie
and place in the fridge. Leav overnight.

STRETCH AND FOLD 2

Take the dough out of it's wrappings, place on the floured counter, cover and
allow to start rising again (1 1/2 hours or so, lots of variables here) then
stretch, fold and turn twice more. The dough should now be very elastic

SHAPING AND PROVING

Leave to rest for 10 minutes, cut into 2 pieces and shape each piece into a
ball. Rest for 10 minutes. Oil the pans to taste. I like olive oil so I use 2
tablespoons per pan but it's up to you. Place the balls of dough in the centre
of the pans and brush the tops generously with oil. Using your fingertips
dimple and spread the dough to the edge of the pans, this may take up to an
hour of repeated small spreadings interspersed with rests. When the dough is
out to the edges of the pans, brush with more oil, sprinkle with salt to
taste, I Iike lots, cover with film and leave for round about 1 1/2 hours (many
variables here also) until soft puffy and bubbly - you will be able to see the
bubbles under the top of the dough. The pans should feel light.

BAKING

The oven will have been preheated to 230 C, bakestones optional, while the
dough proves. Mist the tops of the bread with water, sprinkle a few drops of
oil over and place in the heated oven and leave for 15 minutes. After 15
minutes test the dough by tappping the base (tricky with flat bread like this)
or measuring the internal temp (95 C) - as a guide mine normally take 20
minutes. Slide out of the pans onto racks, brush the edges and rim with oil and
let cool for 40 minutes.

Eat and marvel at how easy it is to makebread of this standard.. "Your mouth
will love you for the rest of your life."

John

Kathy

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Nov 3, 2002, 7:52:54 PM11/3/02
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Thank You, Thank You, Thank You I will try this next week, I appreciate all
your long typing and explaination. Kathy

"Wcsjohn" <wcs...@aol.comspamnone> wrote in message
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vi...@adelphia.net

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Feb 10, 2005, 8:09:47 PM2/10/05
to
I was doing a search for the stretch n fold technique of kneading or
not-kneading and I ran into this reference to chocolate focaccia. I
did a search but didn't really come up with anything that stood out.

I'm very intrigued - especially since V Day is coming up and my guy
loves dark chocolate.

But I can't help wondering? Cocoa in the dough? Chocolate on top? What
makes a focaccia a chocolate focaccia?

Wcsjohn are you out there? Anybody else have a recipe? I also prefer
using whole wheat flour although I might have to make an exception in
this case.

Thanks.
Vicki

john

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Feb 11, 2005, 12:47:38 PM2/11/05
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vi...@adelphia.net wrote in message news:<1108084187.4...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...

> I was doing a search for the stretch n fold technique of kneading or
> not-kneading and I ran into this reference to chocolate focaccia. I
> did a search but didn't really come up with anything that stood out.
>
> I'm very intrigued - especially since V Day is coming up and my guy
> loves dark chocolate.
>
> But I can't help wondering? Cocoa in the dough? Chocolate on top? What
> makes a focaccia a chocolate focaccia?
>
> Wcsjohn are you out there? Anybody else have a recipe? I also prefer
> using whole wheat flour although I might have to make an exception in
> this case.
>
> Thanks.
> Vicki

Cor Blimey, Guvnor! That was a long time ago. It was an experimental
batch that was good but needed more work on balancing the flavours.

The pitifully inadequate and somewhat cryptic notes I made could be
interpreted as follows

450 gm high gluten flour
400 gm full fat milk
100 gm sugar
50 gm Dutch Process Cocoa
50 gm butter
15 gm instant yeast
5 gm salt
150 gm choc chips of mixed types (bitter, milk, white)

Everything but the chips mixed roughly with a wet spoon. dumped onto
the counter, 6 S+F working the chips in on the last 3. Bulk ferment to
double, into shallow baking pans, the dough about 1/2" thick, proof to
2 1/2 times, bake at 230C for about 10-15 minutes, internal temp
95-6C.

Taste notes - "Very chocolatey, a little bitter, a little dry, good
structure, very light, no huge holes. Try another 25 gm butter and
maybe an egg or 2"

I never got round to it because I was just taking off on my Stretch
'n' Fold and producing the best bread of my life.

I don't regard this as a finished recipe, if any recipe can ever be
considered "finished" but it will give you a start point.

John

Who is having a weekend off from house clearance and endless decisions
about whether to throw away the individual quail bakers (Like a
Chicken Brick but smaller, they're History.) or Euler's Disk and an
astronomical number of similar "Knicknacks for Dickheads".

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