Gans -- NYU Chemist -- Displays Basic Ignorance Of Explosives Chemistry
D. Spencer Hines
news:deqcm8$m7s$9...@reader2.panix.com...
| Pedant note: urine was collected for the nitrate in it. I
| forget if it was sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate (and yes,
| it matters).
|
| ---- Paul J. Gans
------------------------
There he goes again!
Pogue Gans, the New York University chemist, is once again displaying
his basic, oft-expressed, congenital ignorance.
This time he is doing it in his OWN chosen discipline ---- CHEMISTRY.
POTASSIUM NITRATE -- KNO3 -- is the desired compound in black powder --
and can be created using urine and potash.
But BOTH potassium and sodium nitrate -- not either/or -- can be
extracted using urine and/or feces as essential ingredients.
Of course the Mediaevals could not so easily separate out and purify
various nitrate compounds from each other in urine and dung as we can
today. Both potassium and sodium nitrate were, and are today, called --
SALTPETRE or SALTPETER.
Potassium Nitrate is an essential element of gunpowder -- black
powder -- when combined with charcoal and sulfur.
Potassium Nitrate is the essential oxidizing agent [oxygen-supplying
agent] in black powder.
The chemical equation for the combustion of Black Powder is
2(KNO3) + S + 3C → K2S + N2 + 3(CO2)
Gans SHOULD know all this elementary high-school chemistry -- but
obviously does not.
He can't even remember whether it is POTASSIUM Nitrate -- KNO3 -- or
SODIUM Nitrate -- NaNO3 -- which is the best oxidizing agent for black
powder -- and which can be extracted using urine and dung as essential
ingredients.
Failing Memory...
Potassium Nitrate -- KNO3 -- has been used extensively as the
oxygen-supplying component of gunpowder since about the 12th cent. It
is also used in explosives, fireworks, model rocket propellants,
matches, and fertilizers, as a preservative in foods (especially meats),
and in the manufacture of nitric acid and of glass.
Here's some more intelligent talk by folks who really know their
Explosives Chemistry -- unlike Pogue Gans -- the ersatz chemist from
NYU, who steadily continues to slip into his dotage:
http://yarchive.net/explosives/nitrates.html
Manufacture Of Saltpetre:
http://docsouth.unc.edu/lecontesalt/leconte.html
ZAAAAPPPP!!!
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
Mediaeval Weapons Of Mass Destruction....
http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s943726.htm
Deus Vult.
Sholem Aleichem.
Allah Akbah.
John 5:14
D. Spencer Hines
Fortem Posce Animum.
Exitus Acta Probat
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Bryn
>There he goes again!
>
Bush Says Relief Not Meeting Need as Criticism Mounts (Update2)
Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) --
President George W. Bush acknowledged federal relief efforts in Gulf
Coast states ravaged by Hurricane aren't meeting the need as criticism
mounted that the government response is too little, too late.
``I'm satisfied with the response, I'm not satisfied with all of the
results,'' Bush said following a tour of ravaged streets in Biloxi,
Mississippi.
Bush said the U.S. has enough National Guard troops to stabilize the
situation and money does not need to be shifted from rebuilding Iraq.
``We've got a job to do to defend our country'' and the U.S. can
accomplish both tasks, Bush said. He said the $10.5 billion in federal
aid that Congress approved today is just a start.
The president visited Mobile, Alabama and Biloxi, then went to New
Orleans, which has been wracked by gunshots and looting as well as fire
and flooding. Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath left carnage, debris,
death and suffering on a historic level. Hundreds of people died in the
storm and its aftermath, cities were leveled and some areas of the
region have descended into chaos.
``The immensity of this storm, both the power and size, just destroyed
Mississippi,'' said Governor Haley Barbour. The state needs ``a lot of
help.''
`Thinking Small'
Local officials and disaster experts say the federal government should
have moved quicker and should still do more.
``This is a national disgrace,'' Terry Ebbert, the head of New Orleans'
emergency operations, told Agence France-Presse. ``We can send massive
amounts of aid to tsunami victims (in Asia), but we can't bail out the
city of New Orleans.''
``I need reinforcements, I need troops, I need 500 buses,'' New Orleans
Mayor Ray Nagin told radio station WWL-AM last night. ``They're thinking
small.''
``It comes down to leadership, and this effort is without a leader,''
said George Haddow, deputy chief of staff of the Federal Emergency
Management Agency from 1998 to 2000. ``I don't think they understand how
to do this at the top level.'' Haddow is now a lecturer at George
Washington University's Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk
Management in Washington.
FEMA's effectiveness was reduced when it was absorbed by the Homeland
Security Department after the Sept. 11 attacks and emphasis shifted from
disaster preparedness to countering terrorism, Haddow said.
`Backwater Agency'
FEMA is now ``a backwater agency,'' said Michael Greenberger, director
of the University of Maryland's Center for Health and Homeland Security
in Baltimore. ``They were so focused on terrorism, they sort of took
their eye off the ball here.''
Criticism of the administration's handling of the disaster comes at as
opinion polls show the president's approval ratings already at a record
low.
A Washington Post-ABC News poll, taken Aug. 25-28, found Bush's job
approval rating at 45 percent, the lowest of his presidency in this
poll. A Gallup Organization poll Aug. 22-25 found Bush's approval and
disapproval ratings to be the most negative of his presidency, with 40
percent approval and 56 percent disapproval.
In Congress, Democrats including House Democratic Caucus Chairman Robert
Menendez are stepping up their criticism, and the Democratic National
Committee today issued a statement under the title, ``Where is the
leadership, Mr. President.''
``Why is it that five days after hurricane Katrina ravaged the Gulf
Coast many of our fellow Americans are still without food and water,
living in squalor in dangerous, inhumane conditions?'' the statement
said.
Call for New Oversight
Republican Representative John Sweeney urged Bush to name former New or
City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to oversee government response in the disaster
area, the Associated Press reported. Sweeney, of New York, said retired
generals Colin Powell or Tommy Franks might also be candidates, AP said.
Giuliani, through a spokeswoman, declined comment, AP said.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said today that he will ask the Senate
Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee to examine the
government's response to the disaster ``once the relief and recovery
effort is complete.''
Federal officials yesterday defended the government's actions, and Bush,
Barbour and Alabama Governor Bob Riley today in turn singled out FEMA
director Mike Brown for praise.
``Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job,'' Bush said.
``I think everyone in the country needs to take a big, collective
breath,'' Brown told reporters at a briefing in Baton Rouge, Louisiana
yesterday. ``What the American people need to understand is that the
full force of the U.S. government is bringing all of the supplies in an
unprecedented response.''
A Test
The response to Hurricane Katrina is a test for Brown, who has held his
position since January 2003 and led the response to such emergencies as
the 2003 Columbia Shuttle disaster and the 2004 Florida hurricanes.
Brown is a former Colorado lawyer and a college friend of President
Bush's first FEMA director, Joe Allbaugh, who was Bush's chief of staff
when he was governor of Texas and his campaign manager when he ran for
president in 2000.
Allbaugh replaced James Lee Witt, an appointee of President Bill
Clinton, as the head of FEMA. Witt, who has a background in emergency
and disaster management, was widely praised as the most effective FEMA
chief ever. During the 2000 presidential debate Witt was hailed by
Republican Bush, who said Witt had ``done a really good job of working
with governors during times of crisis.''
In a rare moment of agreement during that debate, then-Vice President Al
Gore said, ``FEMA has been a major flagship project in our reinventing
government effort.''
`Devastation and Destruction'
On Aug. 31, two days after the storm came ashore, the federal
government's response kicked into high gear. Eight U.S. Navy vessels,
including the hospital ship Comfort, were dispatched to the area, along
with almost 30,000 military personnel.
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said yesterday that Katrina
left in its wake ``90,000 square miles of devastation and destruction.''
On Aug. 31, he declared the disaster an ``incident of national
significance,'' a designation created earlier this year that allows his
department to draft other federal agencies into the relief effort.
In Biloxi today, Bush, Barbour and others walked down a street littered
with splintered trees, downed power lines and debris from houses that
were leveled.
He greeted two women, 23-year-old Brownwynne Bassier and her 21-year old
sister Kim.
``I'm trying to find my house,'' Brownwynne Bassier said. ``I don't have
anything. We have nowhere to go.''
Bush hugged them both and kissed their foreheads. ``I'm sorry for you,''
the president said.
When the women said they were searching for clothes, Bush asked whether
they could get some at the Salvation Army.
``No, it's been wiped out,'' a bystander said.
`NASCAR Without the Car'
Kevin Miller, 35, a truck driver, said he saw six friends die. He saved
himself by clinging to a tree in deep water. ``It was like being in
NASCAR, only without the car.''
Black leaders, noting the heavy concentration of blacks in New Orleans,
are beginning to attack the government response.
``Many of these Americans struggling to survive are Americans of
color,'' Representative Elijah Cummings, Democrat of Maryland, chairman
of Congressional Black Caucus, said at a press conference today at the
National Press Club.
``I'm ashamed of America,'' said Representative Carolyn Kilpatrick, a
Michigan Democrat. ``I'm ashamed of our government. I'm outraged by the
lack of response by our federal government.''
Federal Response
Joined in Washington yesterday by officials from five other Cabinet
departments, Bush detailed supplies being sent to the area: 39 medical
teams, 18 urban-search and rescue squads, a 500- bed mobile hospital, 40
medical shelters with room for 10,000 patients, federal transportation
experts to examine damaged bridges and more than 1,700 trucks carrying
supplies, including 13.4 million liters of water and 114 generators.
The materiel will not arrive in the area immediately. The Comfort won't
be able to leave its homeport of Baltimore until today and will take at
least four days to sail to the Gulf of Mexico.
``We're in a situation that is far more significant than people
recognize,'' Representative Bennie Thompson of Mississippi, the senior
Democrat on the Homeland Security Committee, said. ``Time is of the
essence.''
New Orleans Mayor Nagin yesterday issued a ``desperate SOS'' as the city
descended into anarchy and police officers sent to quell violence were
fired upon, the Associated Press reported. There also were reports of
dead bodies in the streets, hospitals without electricity and dwindling
supplies of food and water.
Police Chief Eddie Compass told the AP evacuees were raped and beaten as
tensions mounted among the tired and hungry survivors sheltered in the
convention center and awaiting evacuation. ``We are running out of
supplies for 15 to 20,000 people,'' Nagin said.
Many survivors said they were angry at the federal government for its
slow response.
Bush ``spends $80 billion on Iraq and he doesn't spend a penny on us,''
said Jack Crochet, 56, a Biloxi, Mississippi resident, as he sat in a
lawn chair he found on the beach. Crochet, who lost his house in the
storm, said the only assistance he had received had been gifts of water
from reporters covering the devastation.
--
Bryn
To email remove GREMILNS
The Real Fifeshire Bimbo
> "Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote
>
> | Pedant note: urine was collected
PISS OFF!
scs deleted
Cheers, Helen
hramsay at cogeco dot ca
"Defender of M$OE"
Diogenes
<pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
>news:deqcm8$m7s$9...@reader2.panix.com...
>
>| Pedant note: urine was collected for the nitrate in it. I
>| forget if it was sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate (and yes,
>| it matters).
>|
>| ---- Paul J. Gans
>------------------------
>
>There he goes again!
>
>Pogue Gans, the New York University chemist, is once again displaying
>his basic, oft-expressed, congenital ignorance.
>
>This time he is doing it in his OWN chosen discipline ---- CHEMISTRY.
>
>POTASSIUM NITRATE -- KNO3 -- is the desired compound in black powder --
>and can be created using urine and potash.
>
>But BOTH potassium and sodium nitrate -- not either/or -- can be
>extracted using urine and/or feces as essential ingredients.
>
>Of course the Mediaevals could not so easily separate out and purify
>various nitrate compounds from each other in urine and dung as we can
>today. Both potassium and sodium nitrate were, and are today, called --
>SALTPETRE or SALTPETER.
Urine became a critical commodity in the Confederacy during the Civil
War, where urinary nitrates were reclaimed for the manufacture of
gunpowder. To meet this need, a particularly energetic and
enthusiastic agent of the Nitre Mining Bureau in Selma, Alabama placed
the following advertisement in the local newspaper:
"The ladies of Selma are respectfully requested to preserve the
chamber lye collected about the premises for the purposes of making
nitre. A barrel will be sent around daily to collect it."
-- John Harrolson, Agent, Nitre Mining Bureau."
His announcement inspired the following poem:
John Harrolson! John Harrolson! You are a wretched creature.
You've added to this bloody war a new and awful feature.
You'd have us think while very man is bound to be a fighter,
The ladies, bless the dears, should save their P for nitre.
John Harrolson! John Harrolson! Where did you get the notion
To send your barrel 'round the town to gather up the lotion?
We thought the girls had work enough making shirts and kissing,
But you have put the pretty dears to patriotic pissing.
John Harrolson! John Harrolson! Do pray invent a neater
And somewhat more modest mode of making your saltpetre;
For 'tis an awful idea, John, gunpowdery and cranky,
That when a lady lifts her shift, she's killing off a Yankee.
*****
The poem made it's way to the Union Army, where a Yankee penned
the following addendum:
John Harrolson! John Harrolson! We've read in song and story
How women's tears through all the years have moistened fields of
glory.
But never was it told before amid such scenes of slaughter
Your Southern beauties dried their tears and went to making water.
No wonder that your boys are brave, who wouldn't be a fighter
If every time he fired his gun, he used his sweetheart's nitre;
And vice-versa, what would make a Yankee soldier sadder
Than dodging bullets fired from a pretty woman's bladder?
They say there was a subtle smell that lingered in that powder,
And as the smoke grew thicker and the din of battle louder,
That there was found to this compound one serious objection,
No soldier boy could sniff it without having an erection.
----
Diogenes (cdh...@hotmail.com)
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
Mark Test
news:0Nxj2jAR...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
> >
>
> ``This is a national disgrace,'' Terry Ebbert, the head of New Orleans'
> emergency operations, told Agence France-Presse. ``We can send massive
> amounts of aid to tsunami victims (in Asia), but we can't bail out the
> city of New Orleans.''
>
been able to prepare a bit better for this too. How about like opening
all North bound lanes and adding additional public transit for the
evacuation? Like most gulf coast cities do.
I guess the days of America being a self-reliant people are over, we've
all become reliant on government, which we all know is never effective
at anything.
> ``I need reinforcements, I need troops, I need 500 buses,'' New Orleans
> Mayor Ray Nagin told radio station WWL-AM last night. ``They're thinking
> small.''
>
You got plenty of buses mayor, but you let them stay downtown
and now they're under water, you failed to think at all.
> ``It comes down to leadership, and this effort is without a leader,''
> said George Haddow, deputy chief of staff of the Federal Emergency
> Management Agency from 1998 to 2000. ``I don't think they understand how
> to do this at the top level.'' Haddow is now a lecturer at George
> Washington University's Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk
> Management in Washington.
>
Again, government agencies are not effective, never will be.
> FEMA's effectiveness was reduced when it was absorbed by the Homeland
> Security Department after the Sept. 11 attacks and emphasis shifted from
> disaster preparedness to countering terrorism, Haddow said.
>
That's his story I guess.
> `Backwater Agency'
>
> FEMA is now ``a backwater agency,'' said Michael Greenberger, director
> of the University of Maryland's Center for Health and Homeland Security
> in Baltimore. ``They were so focused on terrorism, they sort of took
> their eye off the ball here.''
>
Really? I read that over in Florida over half of FEMA's money went
to folks who lost nothing in the last hurricane. There's a problem,
you spent your money on people who didn't need any.
FEMA is not a backwater agency, the reporter should point this out to
us, and not take the word of a bureaucrat.
> Criticism of the administration's handling of the disaster comes at as
> opinion polls show the president's approval ratings already at a record
> low.
>
Polls again.....who cares?
> In Congress, Democrats including House Democratic Caucus Chairman Robert
> Menendez are stepping up their criticism, and the Democratic National
> Committee today issued a statement under the title, ``Where is the
> leadership, Mr. President.''
>
Exact same could be said of the Dems? What? only the President can do
anything? Last time I checked Congress in not powerless.
> ``Why is it that five days after hurricane Katrina ravaged the Gulf
> Coast many of our fellow Americans are still without food and water,
> living in squalor in dangerous, inhumane conditions?'' the statement
> said.
>
Why hasn't the Mayor and city council of New Orleans set up any
relief? Because they had no hurricane plan? That's truly criminal
here.
> Call for New Oversight
>
> Republican Representative John Sweeney urged Bush to name former New or
> City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to oversee government response in the disaster
> area, the Associated Press reported. Sweeney, of New York, said retired
> generals Colin Powell or Tommy Franks might also be candidates, AP said.
> Giuliani, through a spokeswoman, declined comment, AP said.
>
Ahhh great, now the GOP wants to politicize this, grooming Giuliani for
a 2008 Pres run.....You know, if the government would stay out of the
way, the private sector wil get this sorted out. What am saying, it's the
private sector and military that's doing the work, while DC just talks.
Vince Brannigan
> "Bryn" <br...@GREMILNSfinhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:0Nxj2jAR...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
>
>>``This is a national disgrace,'' Terry Ebbert, the head of New Orleans'
>>emergency operations, told Agence France-Presse. ``We can send massive
>>amounts of aid to tsunami victims (in Asia), but we can't bail out the
>>city of New Orleans.''
>>
>
> Why should the Fed Gov bail out New Orleans? New Orleans should have
> been able to prepare a bit better for this too. How about like opening
> all North bound lanes and adding additional public transit for the
> evacuation? Like most gulf coast cities do.
>
OFCS where do they send 200,000 poor people. once out of the city they
are no longer in the city jurisdiction.
> I guess the days of America being a self-reliant people are over, we've
> all become reliant on government, which we all know is never effective
> at anything.
>
Slogans dont mean much in such cses.
From the time of Hammurabi coping with these types of problems has been
a fundamental obligaion of the government. Effective governments do it
right.
>
>>``I need reinforcements, I need troops, I need 500 buses,'' New Orleans
>>Mayor Ray Nagin told radio station WWL-AM last night. ``They're thinking
>>small.''
>>
>
> You got plenty of buses mayor, but you let them stay downtown
> and now they're under water, you failed to think at all.
Crap. all the mayor of NO can do is take people to the city limits.
>
>>``It comes down to leadership, and this effort is without a leader,''
>>said George Haddow, deputy chief of staff of the Federal Emergency
>>Management Agency from 1998 to 2000. ``I don't think they understand how
>>to do this at the top level.'' Haddow is now a lecturer at George
>>Washington University's Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk
>>Management in Washington.
>>
>
> Again, government agencies are not effective, never will be.
Is that why we mobilized microsoft and Mcdonalds to fight the war in iraq?
Vince
William Black
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E5dSe.728$Bv2....@eagle.america.net...
> There he goes again!
The bitch is back.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
William Black
"Mark Test" <MAR...@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:HfkSe.6164$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Why should the Fed Gov bail out New Orleans?
Because it's part of the same country.
New Orleans should have
> been able to prepare a bit better for this too.
Well the Federal Government cutting off the money for the flood defences
didn't help.
The flood defences were the direct responsibility of the US government.
They cut the funding, and when the commandiong general of the Corps of
Engineers said that New Orleans would flood he was sacked.
The federal government is directly responsible.
> I guess the days of America being a self-reliant people are over, we've
> all become reliant on government, which we all know is never effective
> at anything.
They pay teaxes, when they're in trouble they are entitled to government
help.
> > City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to oversee government response in the disaster
> > area, the Associated Press reported. Sweeney, of New York, said retired
> > generals Colin Powell or Tommy Franks might also be candidates, AP said.
> > Giuliani, through a spokeswoman, declined comment, AP said.
> >
> Ahhh great, now the GOP wants to politicize this, grooming Giuliani for
> a 2008 Pres run.....You know, if the government would stay out of the
> way, the private sector wil get this sorted out. What am saying, it's the
> private sector and military that's doing the work, while DC just talks.
No. The Democratic Party is finally learning how to be a 'loyal
opposition', that's what they're for.
D. Spencer Hines
FOR THE
MANUFACTURE OF SALTPETRE;
BY
JOSEPH LECONTE,
PROFESSOR OF CHEMISTRY AND GEOLOGY IN SOUTH CAROLINA COLLEGE.
PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL,
UNDER DIRECTION OF
COL. JAMES CHESNUT, JR.,
CHIEF OF MILITARY DEPARTMENT.
COLUMBIA, S.C.:
CHARLES P. PELHAM, STATE PRINTER.
1862.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 3
This pamphlet is issued with the view of supplying information
to those who may be inclined to engage in the production of saltpetre.
As the refinement will require a process much more difficult and
expensive, the State will undertake that. Private enterprise can thus
readily furnish the crude material, which the State will purchase at a
fair price, and prepare for all the uses required.
JAMES CHESNUT, JR.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 5
INSTRUCTIONS.
By the request of the Chief of the Department of the Military,
under authority of the Executive Council, I have been induced to
publish, for the instruction of planters and manufacturers, a very
succinct account of the most approved methods of manufacturing
saltpetre. In doing so, I shall aim only at brevity and clearness.
The general conditions necessary to the formation of saltpetre
are: 1st, the presence of decaying organic matter, animal or vegetable,
especially the former; 2d, an alkaline or earthy base, as potash or
lime; 3d, sufficient moisture; 4th, free exposure to the oxygen of the
air; and 5th, shelter from sun and rain.
These conditions are often found in nature, as in the soil of
all caves, but particularly those in limestone countries; and still more
frequently under a concurrence of circumstances which, though not
strictly natural, is at least accidental, so far as the formation of
nitre is concerned, as in cellars, stables, manure-heaps, &c. In crowded
cities, with narrow, dirty streets and lanes, the decomposing organic
matter with which the soil is impregnated becomes gradually nitrified,
oozes through, and dries on the walls and floor of the cellars, as a
whitish crust, easily detectible as saltpetre by the taste. The same
salt may be found in the soil beneath stables of several years'
standing, particularly if lime or ashes have been used to hasten the
decomposition of the manure; also in the earth of sheep and cattle pens,
if these have remained several years in the same position; also in the
soil beneath manure-heaps, particularly if lime or ashes have been added
to them, as is common among farmers in making compost. It is very
important, then, that the soil of such caves, cellars, stables, pens and
manure-heaps, as described above, should be tested for saltpetre. If the
salt exists in considerable quantities, it may be detected by the taste;
if not, a small quantity of the earth may be leached, and the ley boiled
down to dryness, and then tested by the taste. If there be still any
doubt, any chemist or educated physician may test it. If the earth
contains saltpetre in sufficient quantities, it must be leached, and the
salt crystallized, by methods which we have described below.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 6
By these means, if diligently used in all parts of the State, it
is hoped that an immediate and not inconsiderable amount of saltpetre
may be obtained. It is not believed, however, that the supply thus
obtained will be sufficient for the exigencies of the war. It is very
important, therefore, that steps should be taken to insure a sufficient
and permanent supply of this invaluable article. This can only be done
by means of nitre-beds. I proceed, then, to give a very brief account of
the method of making these.
NITRE-BEDS.
The most important prerequisite in the construction of
nitre-beds in such manner as to yield nitre in the shortest possible
time, is a good supply of thoroughly rotted manure of the richest kind,
in the condition usually called mould, or black earth. It is believed
that in every vicinity a considerable supply of such manure may be
found, either ready prepared by nature, or by the farmer and gardener
for agricultural and horticultural purposes. To make the bed, a floor is
prepared of clay, well rammed, so as to be impervious to water. An
intimate mixture is then made of rotted manure, old mortar coarsely
ground, or wood ashes (leached ashes will do), together with leaves,
straw, small twigs, branches, &c. to give porosity to the mass, and a
considerable quantity of common earth, if this has not been sufficiently
added in the original manure-heap. The mixture is thrown somewhat
lightly on the clay floor, so as to form a porous heap four or five feet
high, six or seven wide, and fifteen feet long. The whole is then
covered by a rough shed to protect from weather, and perhaps protected
on the sides in some degree from winds. The heap is watered every week
with the richest kinds of liquid manure, such as urine, dung-water,
water of privies, cess-pools, drains, &c. The quantity of liquid should
be such as to keep the heap always moist, but not wet. Drains, also,
should be so constructed as to conduct any superfluous liquid to a tank,
where it is preserved and used in watering the heaps. The materials are
turned over to a depth of five or six inches every week, and the whole
heap turned over every month. This is not always done, but it hastens
very much the process of nitrification. During the last few months of
the process, no more urine, nor liquid manure of any kind, must be used,
but the heaps must be kept moist by water only. The reason of this is,
that undecomposed organic matter interferes with the separation of the
nitre from the ley. As the heap ripens, the nitre is brought to the
surface by evaporation, and appears as a whitish efflorescence,
detectible by the taste. When this efflorescence appears, the surface of
the heap is removed, to the depth of two or three inches, and put aside
under shelter, and kept moist with water. The nitre contained is thus
considerably increased. When the whitish crust again
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 7
appears, it is again removed until a quantity sufficient for leaching is
obtained. The small mound which is thus left is usually used as the
nucleus of a new heap. By this method it is believed that an abundant
supply of nitrified earth, in a condition fit for leaching, may be
obtained by autumn or early winter.
I have spoken thus far of the method of preparing a single heap,
or nitre-bed, such as any farmer or gardener may prepare with little
trouble. But where saltpetre is manufactured on a large scale, as in the
saltpetre plantations, many such beds are made and symmetrically
arranged, so as to economize space; all under the same roof, with
regularly arranged drains, all leading to a large cistern. In such
plantations everything may be carried on with more economy, and with
correspondingly increased profits.
PREPARATION OF MOULD.
I have supposed that there is already a considerable supply of
rotted manure, prepared for other purposes, in a condition fitted for
making nitre-beds; but after the present year this precarious supply
must not be relied on. Systematic preparation of mould or black earth
must be undertaken. The process of preparation is so precisely similar
to that of compost manure that little need be said, the chief difference
being the greater richness in nitrogenous matter in the case of compost
intended for nitre-beds. First prepare a floor of well-rammed clay; on
this place a layer of common soil, mixed with broken old mortar or
ashes, six or eight inches thick; then a layer of vegetable matter --
straw, leaves, rank weeds, &c. then a layer of animal matter, dung,
flesh, skin, scrapings of drains, sinks, &c. then another layer of mixed
earth and mortar or ashes, and so on until a heap six feet high is made.
Brush and sticks are often introduced, also, to increase the porosity of
the mass. The whole is protected from the weather, and watered every
week or two with urine or dung-water, until the organic matter is
entirely decomposed into a black mass. This will take place in about a
year, or perhaps less, in our climate. The whole is thoroughly mixed,
and is then fit for making nitre-beds, as already explained.
Thus it is hoped that the preparation of saltpetre may be set on
foot at once in three different stages of advance, viz.: by the
collection of already nitrified earth; by the making of nitre-beds from
already formed black earth; and by the preparation of black earth. By
leaching, the first would yield immediate results, the second in six or
eight months, and the last in about eighteen months or two years.
The method I have given above is that of the French. Other
methods are precisely the same in principle, and differ only slightly in
some of the details. The best of these is the
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 8
PRUSSIAN METHOD.
Five parts of black earth and one of spent ashes or broken
mortar are mixed with barley straw, to make the mass porous. The mixture
is then made into heaps six feet high and fifteen feet long with one
side perpendicular (and hence called walls), and the opposite side
sloping regularly by a series of terraces or steps. Straight sticks are
generally introduced, and withdrawn when the mass is sufficiently firm.
By this means air and water are introduced into the interior of the
mass. The heap is lightly thatched with straw, to protect from sun and
rain. The whole is frequently watered with urine and dung-water. The
perpendicular side being turned in the direction of the prevailing
winds, the evaporation is most rapid on that side. The liquid with which
the heap is watered is drawn by capillarity and evaporation to this
side, carrying the nitre with it, and the latter effloresces there as a
whitish crust. The perpendicular wall is shaved off two or three inches
deep as often as the whitish incrustation appears, and the material thus
removed is kept for leaching. The leached earth, mixed with a little
fresh mould, is thrown back on the sloping side of the heap, and
distributed so as to retain the original form of the heap. Thus the
heaps slowly change their position, but retain their forms. This method
yields results in about a year-- probably in our climate in eight
months.
SWEDISH METHOD.
Every Swede pays a portion of his tax in nitre. This salt is
therefore prepared by almost every one on a small scale. The Swedish
method does not differ in any essential respect from those I have
already described. First a clay floor; upon this is placed a mixture of
earth, mould, spent ashes, animal and vegetable refuse of all kinds.
Small twig branches, straw and leaves are added, to make the mass
porous; a light covering, to protect from weather, frequent watering
with urine or dung-water, and turning over every week or two. The
process is precisely the same as the French, except that the process of
preparation and nitrification are not separated. I only mention it to
show that nitre may be made by every one on a small scale. By this
method the beds are ripe in two years-- perhaps in less time in this
country.
SWISS METHOD.
The method practiced by the small farmers in Switzerland is very
simple, requires little or no care, and is admirably adapted to the
hilly portions of our State.
A stable with a board floor is built on the slope of a hill (a
northern slope is best), with one end resting on the ground, while the
other is elevated,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Page 9
several feet, thus allowing the air to circulate freely below. Beneath
the stable a pit, two or three feet deep, and conforming to the slope of
the hill, is dug and filled with porous sand, mixed with ashes or old
mortar. The urine of the animals is absorbed by the porous sand, becomes
nitrified, and is fit for leaching in about two years. The exhausted
earth is returned to the pit, to undergo the same process again. This
leached earth induces nitrification much more rapidly than fresh earth;
so that after the first crop the earth may be leached regularly every
year. A moderate-sized stable yields with every leaching about one
thousand pounds of saltpetre.
LEACHING.
When the process of nitrification is complete, the earth of the
heaps must be leached. Manufacturers are accustomed to judge roughly of
the amount of nitre in any earth by the taste. A more accurate method is
by leaching a small quantity of the earth, and boiling to dryness, and
weighing the salt. There is much diversity of opinion as to the per
centage of nitre necessary to render its extraction profitable. The best
writers on this subject vary in their estimates from fifteen pounds to
sixty pounds of salt per cubic yard of nitrified earth. The high price
of nitre with us at present would make a smaller per centage profitable.
This point, however, will soon be determined by the enterprising
manufacturer.
In the process of leaching, in order to save fuel, we must
strive to get as strong a solution as possible, and at the same time to
extract all or nearly all the nitre. These two objects can only be
attained by repeated leachings of the same earth, the ley thus obtained
being used on fresh earth until the strength of the ley is sufficient. A
quantity of nitrified earth is thrown into a vat, or ash-tub, or barrel,
or hogshead with an aperture below, closely stopped and covered lightly
with straw. Water is added, about half as much in volume as the earth.
After stirring, this is allowed to remain twelve hours. Upon opening the
bung, about half the water runs through containing, of course, one-half
the nitre. Pure water, in quantity half as much as first used, is again
poured on, and after a few moments run through. This will contain
one-half the remaining nitre, and therefore one-fourth of the original
quantity. Thus the leys of successive leachings become weaker and
weaker, until, after the sixth leaching, the earth is considered as
sufficiently exhausted. The exhausted earth is thrown back on the
nitre-beds, or else mixed with black earth to form new beds. The leys
thus obtained are used upon fresh earth until the solution is of
sufficient density to bear an egg. It then contains about a pound of
salt to a gallon of liquid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Page 10
CONVERSION.
The ley thus obtained contains, besides nitrate of potash
(nitre), also nitrate of lime and magnesia, and chlorides of sodium and
potassium. The object of the next process is to convert all other
nitrates into nitrate of potash. This is done by adding wood ashes. The
potash of the ashes takes all the nitric acid of the other nitrates
forming the nitrate of potash (nitre), and the lime and magnesia are
precipitated as an insoluble sediment. Sometimes the ashes is mixed with
the nitrified earth and leached together, sometimes the saltpetre ley is
filtered through wood ashes, sometimes the ley of ashes is added to the
saltpetre ley. In either case the result is precisely the same.
CRYSTALLIZATION.
The ley thus converted is then poured off from the precipitate,
into copper or iron boilers. It still contains common salt (chloride of
sodium) in considerable, and some other impurities in smaller,
quantities. It is a peculiarity of nitre, that it is much more soluble
than common salt in boiling water, but much less soluble in cold water.
As the boiling proceeds, therefore, and the solution becomes more
concentrated, the common salt is, most of it, precipitated in small
crystals, as a sandy sediment, and may be raked out. Much organic matter
rises as scum, and must also be removed. When the concentration has
reached almost the point of saturation, the boiler must be allowed to
cool. This is known by letting fall a drop of the boiling liquid upon a
cold metallic surface; if it quickly crystallizes, it is time to stop
the boiling. It is now poured into large receivers and left to cool. As
the ley cools, nearly the whole of the nitre separates in the form of
crystals, which sink to the bottom. These are then removed, drained by
throwing them in baskets, and dried by gentle beat. The mother-liquor is
either thrown back into the boilers, or else used in watering the heaps.
The product thus obtained is the crude saltpetre of commerce. It still
contains fifteen to twenty-five per cent. of impurities, principally
common salt (chloride of sodium), chloride of potassium and organic
matter. In this impure form it is usually brought to market.
There is still another process, viz: that of refining, by which
the whole of the impurities is removed. This is seldom done by the
manufacturer, but by a separate class, called the refiners.
REFINING.
One hundred gallons of water is poured into a boiler, and crude
saltpetre added from time to time, while the liquid is heating, until
four thousand pounds are introduced. This will make a saturated solution
of nitre. The
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 11
scum brought up by toiling must be removed, and the undissolved common
salt scraped out. About sixty gallons cold water is now added gradually,
so as not to cool the liquid too suddenly. From one to one and a-half
pounds of glue, dissolved in hot water, is added, with stirring. Blood
is sometimes used instead of glue. The glue seizes upon the organic
matter, and they rise together as scum, which is removed. Continue the
boiling until the liquid is clear. The liquid is then suffered to cool
to one hundred and ninety-four degrees, and then carefully ladled out
into the crystallizers. These are large shallow vats, with the bottom
sloping gently to the middle. In these the cooling is completed, with
constant stirring. In the process of cooling nearly the whole of the
nitre is deposited in very fine, needle-like crystals, which, as they
deposit, are removed and drained. In this condition it is called
saltpetre flour. The object of the constant stirring is to prevent the
aggregation of the crystals into masses, from which it is difficult to
remove the adhering mother-liquor. The saltpetre flour is then washed of
all adhering mother-liquor. For this purpose it is thrown into a box
with a double bottom; the lower bottom with an aperture closely plugged,
and the false bottom finely perforated. By means of a watering pot a
saturated solution of pure nitre is added, in quantity sufficient to
moisten thoroughly the whole mass. After remaining two or three hours to
drain, the plug is removed and the solution run out. This is sometimes
repeated several times. The saturated solution of nitre cannot, of
course, dissolve any more nitre, but dissolves freely the impurities
present in the adhering mother-liquor. Last of all, a small quantity of
pure water-- only about one pound to fifty-three pounds of the nitre to
be washed-- is added in the same manner, and run off at the end of two
hours. The nitre is now dried by gentle heat and constant stirring, and
may be considered quite pure, and fit for the manufacture of gunpowder.
ANALYSIS.
As the value of crude saltpetre depends upon the quantity of
pure nitre which it contains, it is important to give some simple
methods of estimating its purity:
1. The first method is founded upon the fact, already alluded
to, that a saturated solution of any salt will not dissolve any more of
that salt, but will freely dissolve other salts. Twelve ounces of crude
saltpetre is well ground, and twelve ounces of a saturated solution of
pure nitre added. The mixture is stirred fifteen minutes, allowed to
settle, and the liquid carefully poured off. Six to nine ounces more of
the saturated solution of nitre is again poured on, the mixture stirred
ten minutes, and the whole thrown on a filter, and allowed to remain
until thoroughly drained. The filter, with its contents, is then pressed
upon blotting paper, or slab of plaster, or other
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 12
absorbent substance-- the nitre carefully removed and dried, and
carefully weighed. The loss of weight indicates the impurity originally
present in the crude saltpetre. About two per cent. should be deducted
from the estimate of impurity, or added to the estimate of pure nitre;
since, although a saturated solution of nitre will not dissolve any more
pure nitre, still, if any common salt be present, a small additional
quantity of nitre is taken up.
2. Another method of estimating saltpetre is founded upon the
fact that nitre mixed with charcoal and heated is entirely converted
into carbonate of potash, while common salt is not affected. If the
saltpetre be mixed with charcoal alone, the reaction is apt to be
violent and explosive. To moderate the violence of the action, the
saltpetre must be largely mixed with common salt, which does not
interfere with the reaction. One part crude saltpetre, four parts common
salt, and one-half part charcoal, are mixed and thrown gradually in a
red-hot crucible, or else heated in an iron spoon, until reaction
ceases. The whole of the nitre is now changed into carbonate of potash,
which may be dissolved in water and filtered. The solution thus
obtained, being alkaline may be estimated by the quantity of sulphuric
or other acid of known strength necessary to completely neutralize it.
This is done by means of the instrument called the alkalimetre. One part
of pure potassa corresponds to 2.14 parts of nitre; or one part
carbonate potassa corresponds to 1.46 parts nitre. The objection to this
method is, that it requires the use of the alkalimetre; and, therefore,
a degree of care and an amount of accuracy which can hardly be expected
in practical men.
3. The third method of estimation depends upon the fact that a
strong hot solution of nitre crystallizes on cooling, and that the
temperature at which crystals begin to deposit (or point of saturation)
depends upon the amount of nitre present in the solution, irrespective
of the presence of impurities. In one hundred parts of hot water is
dissolved forty parts of crude saltpetre. A very delicate thermometer is
introduced, the liquid allowed to cool slowly, and the temperature at
which crystals begin to deposit is accurately observed. The higher the
temperature, the larger the quantity of nitre present in the solution,
and, therefore, the purer the saltpetre. Tables have been constructed
giving the saturating point for solutions containing different
quantities of nitre.
I have constructed, from materials derived from the best French
authorities, a table which is sufficiently complete and accurate for all
practical purposes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Page 13
In a saturated solution of nitre, one hundred parts by weight of
water at
32° contains 13.32 parts of nitre.
33° contains 13.64 parts of nitre.
34° contains 13.97 parts of nitre.
35° contains 14.31 parts of nitre.
36° contains 14.66 parts of nitre.
37° contains 15.02 parts of nitre.
38° contains 15.40 parts of nitre.
39° contains 15.79 parts of nitre.
40° contains 16.19 parts of nitre.
41° contains 16.50 parts of nitre.
42° contains 16.91 parts of nitre.
43° contains 17.33 parts of nitre.
44° contains 17.76 parts of nitre.
45° contains 18.20 parts of nitre.
46° contains 18.66 parts of nitre.
47° contains 19.13 parts of nitre.
48° contains 19.61 parts of nitre.
49° contains 20.10 parts of nitre.
50° contains 20.60 parts of nitre.
51° contains 21.12 parts of nitre.
52° contains 21.65 parts of nitre.
53° contains 22.20 parts of nitre.
54° contains 22.76 parts of nitre.
55° contains 23.23 parts of nitre.
56° contains 23.81 parts of nitre.
57° contains 24.40 parts of nitre.
58° contains 25.00 parts of nitre.
59° contains 25.60 parts of nitre.
60° contains 26.21 parts of nitre.
61° contains 26.82 parts of nitre.
62° contains 27.44 parts of nitre.
63° contains 28.07 parts of nitre.
64° contains 28.70 parts of nitre.
65° contains 29.34 parts of nitre.
66° contains 30.09 parts of nitre.
67° contains 30.74 parts of nitre.
68° contains 31.40 parts of nitre.
69° contains 32.08 parts of nitre.
70° contains 32.77 parts of nitre.
71° contains 33.48 parts of nitre.
72° contains 34.20 parts of nitre.
73° contains 34.94 parts of nitre.
74° contains 35.69 parts of nitre.
75° contains 36.46 parts of nitre.
76° contains 37.25 parts of nitre.
77° contains 38.05 parts of nitre.
78° contains 38.85 parts of nitre.
79° contains 39.65 parts of nitre.
80° contains 40.46 parts of nitre.
81° contains 41.27 parts of nitre.
82° contains 42.09 parts of nitre.
83° contains 42.92 parts of nitre.
84° contains 43.76 parts of nitre.
85° contains 44.62 parts of nitre.
86° contains 45.50 parts of nitre.
87° contains 46.42 parts of nitre.
88° contains 47.33 parts of nitre.
89° contains 48.26 parts of nitre.
90° contains 49.20 parts of nitre.
91° contains 50.16 parts of nitre.
92° contains 51.13 parts of nitre.
93° contains 52.11 parts of nitre.
94° contains 53.10 parts of nitre.
95° contains 54.10 parts of nitre.
By comparing the quantity of pure nitre, as determined by
inspection of the table, with the quantity of crude saltpetre dissolved,
the per centage of pure nitre may be easily calculated. Thus, if
crystals begin to deposit at 68°, the quantity of nitre contained in a
hundred parts of water is 31.40 parts; dividing this by 40 parts crude
nitre, originally dissolved, gives 76 per cent. of pure nitre in the
sample examined. In the foregoing example I have used 40 parts crude
saltpetre; but we are by no means limited to this number. On the
contrary, in our climate a larger quantity, as 50, or even 60, parts is
preferable. For it will be observed that at 80° more than 40 parts of
nitre are soluble in 100 parts of water, and that, therefore, in our
summer weather, if only 40 parts of crude saltpetre are used in the
experiment, artificial cold will be necessary to produce
crystallization. To avoid this inconvenience, it is only necessary to
use a larger proportion of crude saltpetre in the experiment. Thus, if
50 parts are used, and crystallization
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Page 14
commences at 80°, the quantity of pure nitre, by the table, being
40.46, the per centage is 40.46 / 50 = 80.9. For higher summer
temperature, it will be, of course, necessary to use a still larger
quantity of crude saltpetre in the experiment. This method has the
advantage of great ease and rapidity of execution.
In conclusion, a word by way of encouragement to manufacturers
in undertaking this work.
It will be seen that under the most favorable circumstances
saltpetre cannot be made in any considerable quantity in less than six
or eight months, and that if we commence now the preliminary process of
preparing black earth, so as to insure a sufficient and permanent
supply, results cannot be expected under eighteen months or two years.
Let no one be discouraged by this fact, under the idea that the war may
not last so long, and all their work may be thrown away. There is every
prospect now of the war continuing at least several years, and of our
being thrown entirely on our own resources for war materials. Besides,
even if the war should be discontinued, the work is by no means lost.
The method of preparing and making saltpetre-beds is precisely the most
approved method of making the best manure, and all the labor and pains
necessary for the preparation of black earth, and the construction of
saltpetre-beds, and which I hope to induce my fellow-countrymen to
undertake under the noble impulse of patriotism, ought to be annually
undertaken by every planter, under the lower impulse of a wise
self-interest, and would be amply rewarded in the increased production
of field crops."
D. Spencer Hines
news:deqcm8$m7s$9...@reader2.panix.com...
| Pedant note: urine was collected for the nitrate in it. I
| forget if it was sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate (and yes,
| it matters).
|
| ---- Paul J. Gans
------------------------
There he goes again!
Pogue Gans, the New York University chemist, is once again displaying
his basic, oft-expressed, congenital ignorance.
This time he is doing it in his OWN chosen discipline ---- CHEMISTRY.
POTASSIUM NITRATE -- KNO3 -- is the desired compound in black powder --
and can be created using urine and potash.
But BOTH potassium and sodium nitrate -- not either/or -- can be
extracted using urine and/or feces as essential ingredients.
Of course the Mediaevals could not so easily separate out and purify
various nitrate compounds from each other in urine and dung as we can
today. Both potassium and sodium nitrate were, and are today, called --
SALTPETRE or SALTPETER.
Potassium Nitrate is an essential element of gunpowder -- black
Fred J. McCall
> "Bryn" <br...@GREMILNSfinhall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:0Nxj2jAR...@finhall.demon.co.uk...
>> >
>>
>> ``This is a national disgrace,'' Terry Ebbert, the head of New
>> Orleans' emergency operations, told Agence France-Presse. ``We
>> can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims (in Asia), but
>> we can't bail out the city of New Orleans.''
>
> Why should the Fed Gov bail out New Orleans? New Orleans should
> have been able to prepare a bit better for this too. How about
> like opening all North bound lanes and adding additional public
> transit for the evacuation? Like most gulf coast cities do.
And transport them to where? Feed and cloth them how once they are
there?
One more time, large scale logistics are NOT magic. Things don't
just work because you take a superficial look and wish very hard.
> I guess the days of America being a self-reliant people are over,
> we've all become reliant on government, which we all know is never
> effective at anything.
Some events are too big to be dealt with at other than a State or
Federal level. This is one of those. Ideologue carping won't change
that.
>> ``I need reinforcements, I need troops, I need 500 buses,'' New
>> Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin told radio station WWL-AM last night.
>> ``They're thinking small.''
>
> You got plenty of buses mayor, but you let them stay downtown
> and now they're under water, you failed to think at all.
And where should he have moved them to, given that MOST of the city
is under water? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>> ``It comes down to leadership, and this effort is without a
>> leader,'' said George Haddow, deputy chief of staff of the
>> Federal Emergency Management Agency from 1998 to 2000. ``I don't
>> think they understand how to do this at the top level.'' Haddow
>> is now a lecturer at George Washington University's Institute for
>> Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management in Washington.
>
> Again, government agencies are not effective, never will be.
Really? Who do you think has dealt with every other large-scale
disaster that has ever occurred?
>> FEMA's effectiveness was reduced when it was absorbed by the
>> Homeland Security Department after the Sept. 11 attacks and
>> emphasis shifted from disaster preparedness to countering
>> terrorism, Haddow said.
>
> That's his story I guess.
I'd check whether Haddow is a Democrat or a Republican when looking
at this one.
>> `Backwater Agency'
>>
>> FEMA is now ``a backwater agency,'' said Michael Greenberger,
>> director of the University of Maryland's Center for Health and
>> Homeland Security in Baltimore. ``They were so focused on
>> terrorism, they sort of took their eye off the ball here.''
>
> Really? I read that over in Florida over half of FEMA's money went
> to folks who lost nothing in the last hurricane. There's a
> problem, you spent your money on people who didn't need any.
> FEMA is not a backwater agency, the reporter should point this out
> to us, and not take the word of a bureaucrat.
Cite for what you read?
>> Criticism of the administration's handling of the disaster comes
>> at as opinion polls show the president's approval ratings already
>> at a record low.
>
> Polls again.....who cares?
Apparently the people being polled, which is why everyone (including
you) is trying to get political spin on this.
>> In Congress, Democrats including House Democratic Caucus Chairman
>> Robert Menendez are stepping up their criticism, and the
>> Democratic National Committee today issued a statement under the
>> title, ``Where is the leadership, Mr. President.''
>
> Exact same could be said of the Dems? What? only the President
> can do anything? Last time I checked Congress in not powerless.
At last, a valid point!
>> ``Why is it that five days after hurricane Katrina ravaged the
>> Gulf Coast many of our fellow Americans are still without food
>> and water, living in squalor in dangerous, inhumane conditions?''
>> the statement said.
>
> Why hasn't the Mayor and city council of New Orleans set up any
> relief? Because they had no hurricane plan? That's truly
> criminal here.
I'd merely suggest that those responsible for that statement need to
look at the area affected and then ask themselves what THEY would do.
Of course, offering constructive is ever so much more difficult and
ever less satisfying than politically motivated sniping.
>> Call for New Oversight
>>
>> Republican Representative John Sweeney urged Bush to name former
>> New or City Mayor Rudy Giuliani to oversee government response in
>> the disaster area, the Associated Press reported. Sweeney, of New
>> York, said retired generals Colin Powell or Tommy Franks might
>> also be candidates, AP said. Giuliani, through a spokeswoman,
>> declined comment, AP said.
>
> Ahhh great, now the GOP wants to politicize this, grooming
> Giuliani for a 2008 Pres run.....You know, if the government would
> stay out of the way, the private sector wil get this sorted out.
> What am saying, it's the private sector and military that's doing
> the work, while DC just talks.
Yeah, heaven forfend that they put someone competent in charge. Why,
that might look political, after all. Let's find some do nothing
from the Greens or the Libertarians and put THEM in charge.
Then your prophecy will be self-fullfilling.
--
This space for let.
Grey Satterfield
Xns96C691D622CACf...@207.217.125.201, "Fred J. McCall"
<fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Mark Test" <MAR...@peoplepc.com> wrote in
> news:HfkSe.6164$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>>> Orleans' emergency operations, told Agence France-Presse. ``We
>>> can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims (in Asia), but
>>> we can't bail out the city of New Orleans.''
>>
>> Why should the Fed Gov bail out New Orleans? New Orleans should
>> have been able to prepare a bit better for this too. How about
>> like opening all North bound lanes and adding additional public
>> transit for the evacuation? Like most gulf coast cities do.
>
> And transport them to where? Feed and cloth them how once they are
> there?
>
> One more time, large scale logistics are NOT magic. Things don't
> just work because you take a superficial look and wish very hard.
>
>> I guess the days of America being a self-reliant people are over,
>> we've all become reliant on government, which we all know is never
>> effective at anything.
>
> Some events are too big to be dealt with at other than a State or
> Federal level. This is one of those. Ideologue carping won't change
> that.
Mark is really smarter than to decry the federal government providing
disaster relief to the areas devastated by hurricane, it seems to me. We
are one nation and we need to stick together and support each other in times
of crises, although it's hard to keep this in mind with the incessant and
mindless Democratic sniping accusing the Bush administration of providing
too little help too late.
I suggest that the way to deal with unfair criticism is to consider the
source; after all those folks complaining about the sufficiency of the
disaster relief haven't made a valid point about Bush since 2000. It is
wrong and counterproductive to let one's anger at such Lilliputian carping
allow one to lose sight of the need of all Americans to do what they can to
help other Americans. Otherwise, we descend to the emotional,
empty-headedness of the Bush haters.
Grey Satterfield
Howard C. Berkowitz
<grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
I am not overwhelmingly critical of Bush's actions in this specific
situation. I am, however, critical of the downgrading of FEMA and other
emergency-oriented organization into parts of DHS, where the prime
threat is always considering terror.
Without criticism of Bush, he would do well to name a Presidential
representative, since he realistically can't handle this and also his
other responsibilities. Rudy Guiliani is a fairly obvious choice, if
Bush isn't too concerned with upsetting the religious right wingnuts.
Fred J. McCall
news:hcb-27A335.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net:
> I am not overwhelmingly critical of Bush's actions in this
> specific situation. I am, however, critical of the downgrading of
> FEMA and other emergency-oriented organization into parts of DHS,
> where the prime threat is always considering terror.
And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard) are now
being critical of this when it was them who forced the creation of a
Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in the first place.
William Black
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning how to be
a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people who might win the
next election.
Bryn
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>
>"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
>> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in
>> news:hcb-27A335.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net:
>>
>> > I am not overwhelmingly critical of Bush's actions in this
>> > specific situation. I am, however, critical of the downgrading of
>> > FEMA and other emergency-oriented organization into parts of DHS,
>> > where the prime threat is always considering terror.
>>
>> And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard) are now
>> being critical of this when it was them who forced the creation of a
>> Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in the first place.
>
>The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning how to be
>a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people who might win the
>next election.
No American "left-wing", only right and further right...
a.spencer3
> > And where should he have moved them to, given that MOST of the city
> is under water? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
>
Wherever it is they're bloody moving them to now at long last!
For Gawd's sake - "we don't know where to put them so we'll let them go
without food and water for 6 days".
A really great attitude that you seem to defend.
Katrina is a big blot as even the Pres has admitted.
Those who defend it now .. well, I can't even imagine a suitable
description. I doubt they'll find many sympathetic to them within the USA
either.
Surreyman
a.spencer3
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:BF3F8962.1BD98%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
> We
> are one nation and we need to stick together and support each other in
times
> of crises, although it's hard to keep this in mind with the incessant and
> mindless Democratic sniping accusing the Bush administration of providing
> too little help too late.
But Bush himself has admitted that. Who are you defending now?
Surreyman
Bryn
<a.spe...@ntlworld.com> writes
How many "useful Idiots" has the US got ?
That's the test ?
>
>Surreyman
Grey Satterfield
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
>> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in
>> news:hcb-27A335.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net:
>>
>>> I am not overwhelmingly critical of Bush's actions in this
>>> specific situation. I am, however, critical of the downgrading of
>>> FEMA and other emergency-oriented organization into parts of DHS,
>>> where the prime threat is always considering terror.
>>
>> And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard) are now
>> being critical of this when it was them who forced the creation of a
>> Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in the first place.
>
> The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning how to be
> a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people who might win the
> next election.
To the contrary, I have seen no indication that the Democrats have any
alternative suggestions. They seem merely to claim that "Bush lied" and
that he is "a stupid cowboy." The Dems need fresh ideas but they haven't
generated any that I have seen so far.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
He expressed frustration that things were going so slowly but he did not
blame anybody because there was really nobody to blame. As I noted earlier,
the awesome scope of the disaster meant that it was going to take some time
for relief efforts to really show some results. As the foregoing post
demonstrates, it's the Bush haters who are doing most of the complaining.
Grey Satterfield
Kurt Ullman
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
>miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
>seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
>Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
>administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
>
They also seem to forget that the planning was for a hurricane
and they got that followed by a flood. Had the levees held, we would
have had to have something else to fight about.
The other thing is that FEMA and the emergency services in
general have done a poor job of educating the public. I have had any
number of people tell with great sincerity that when we realized we
needed the extra help, we should have gotten it there immediately.
Everybody seems to think that we can decide we need 30,000 extra
troops and just get them there in an hour or two.
--
The difference between being diplomatic and undiplomatic is the
difference between saying "When I look at you time stands still"
and "Your face could stop a clock." ~~ Anon.
a.spencer3
Even Bush himself didn't say it was inevitable! He said initial efforts were
UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!
You really are blinded, or a total troll.
Surreyman
James Toupin
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
While I agree that the magnitude of the disaster was, and is, enormous, it
is something that has been predicted for years. It was, in fact, number
three on the Homeland Security Department's own list of most devastating
disaster scenarios, behind a terrorist nuclear attack on a major city and a
huge earthquake in California. Add to that the fact that the hurricane's
path was pretty certain three days before the storm actually hit, and I
think it is clear that more could have been done to prepare before the
hurricane made landfall.
The Governors and Mayors of the effected areas did all that they could to
encourage the population to evacuate. Once the storm hit, the response
should have been immediate. Excuses have been given saying that the response
couldn't get through the storm ravaged areas. Bullsh*t! The ravaged areas
and storm damage didn't stop every reporter in the eastern United States
from getting into the effected areas. I should expect at least as much from
the most powerful nation on earth's disaster relief organizations!
I am not blaming President Bush, I honestly don't know what could have been
done by the agencies without his oversight and approval. The point is simply
that the ball was dropped on this one by someone and there really is no
excuse. The tragedy that has followed the hurricane could have, and should
have, been avoided. The next terrorist attack won't come with at least three
days warning.
Also, just one point Grey. Please don't call everyone who has any criticism
of the Bush administration "Bush Haters". People can criticize an
administration and it's policies and not have any hatred for the President.
I know that I don't hate President Bush. I may not agree with many of his
policies, but as far as I can tell, he is a decent, caring and intelligent
man who is doing what he believes is best for his country. How can anyone
hate that?
James
>
Ominous
>> The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning how
>> to be a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people who might
>> win the next election.
>
> To the contrary, I have seen no indication that the Democrats have any
> alternative suggestions. They seem merely to claim that "Bush lied" and
> that he is "a stupid cowboy." The Dems need fresh ideas but they haven't
> generated any that I have seen so far.
And the US desperately needs the counterpoint. The Dems need to drop their
petulant whining and start offering reasonable alternatives
--
This is all pretty funny until I recall that you were bested by that
retarded geriatric scot WHO NEVER POSTED A SINGLE WORD.
Then it's just sad.
Bryn
Ullman <kurtu...@yahoo.com> writes
>In article <BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net>, Grey
>Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
>>In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
>>miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
>>seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
>>Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
>>administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
>>
> They also seem to forget that the planning was for a hurricane
>and they got that followed by a flood. Had the levees held, we would
>have had to have something else to fight about.
> The other thing is that FEMA and the emergency services in
>general have done a poor job of educating the public. I have had any
>number of people tell with great sincerity that when we realized we
>needed the extra help, we should have gotten it there immediately.
>Everybody seems to think that we can decide we need 30,000 extra
>troops and just get them there in an hour or two.
>
I will leave it to somebody else to make the obvious response to that
statement.
Fred J. McCall
news:BYzSe.2124$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net:
Hogwash. English not your first language? Have someone go read what
"Bush himself has admitted" and translate it for you rather than
showing yourself to be a total fool, won't you?
Fred J. McCall
news:QWzSe.2122$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C691D622CACf...@207.217.125.201...
>> >
>> > And where should he have moved them to, given that MOST of the
>> > city is under water? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>
> Wherever it is they're bloody moving them to now at long last!
Note the change of pronoun? I remarked on comments on what THE MAYOR
OF NEW ORLEANS could do. Note that his authority to 'move people
someplace' is pretty much limited to moving them about WITHIN NEW
ORLEANS.
Mr Spencer now elects to act as if I commented on something else
entirely. Mr Spencer is obviously an ignorant twat in this case.
> For Gawd's sake - "we don't know where to put them so we'll let
> them go without food and water for 6 days".
And just who said the quoted portion, above? Making things up, are
we?
> A really great attitude that you seem to defend.
Fortunately, reality doesn't seem to pay much attention to how things
'seem' to you.
> Katrina is a big blot as even the Pres has admitted.
> Those who defend it now .. well, I can't even imagine a suitable
> description. I doubt they'll find many sympathetic to them within
> the USA either.
I'd suggest you troll elsewhere for a fight. It must be something
about having 'Spencer' as part of one's name....
Mac_Ray
>
> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of
square
> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
> seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was
inevitable.
Complete and utter bollox. The evacuation of the city was ordered by the
Mayor days before the hurricane hit. The *evacuation of a city* - for God's
sake! In any properly organised society this should have kicked in emergency
procedures, comencing with the procurement of buses and helicopters for
those who did not have transport and following up with the procurement of
water, food and medical supplies for those who would get caught up in it.
The whole thing is a total shambles and is an indictment of the whole of the
USA. Sorry pal - but that's the way it is.
> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
> administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
Wrong.
Fred J. McCall
news:$gGxNqAM...@finhall.demon.co.uk:
All politics is local. Sod off.
"No European "left-wing", only far-left and fringe looney..."
Fred J. McCall
news:dfeca5$hfq$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
>>
>> And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard) are
>> now being critical of this when it was them who forced the
>> creation of a Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in
>> the first place.
>
> The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning
> how to be a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people
> who might win the next election.
Perhaps, but there's really no place for that sort of silly shite in
our non-parliamentary system. It's a great way for them to relegate
themselves to irrelevancy.
William Black
> On 9/4/05 5:25 AM, in article BYzSe.2124$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net,
> "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> > But Bush himself has admitted that. Who are you defending now?
>
> He expressed frustration that things were going so slowly but he did not
> blame anybody because there was really nobody to blame.
That's the whole point isn't it.
Not one single politician in a position of authority flicked back their $100
haircut, reached out a manicured hand, picked up a phone and said:
"Get your people moving, I take full responsibility".
Not one of those craggy faced, cigar chewing generals we see so much of on
TV was prepared to say:
"The hell with it, someone's got to save the world, boots and saddles
boys"
Everyone just sat on their collective arses, scared half to death of the
consequences if they took some sort of action without orders.
The press and the Democrats are saying it's because the only people in
trouble were poor and black.
If that's true then you've got problems that make a flood and some storm
damage look trivial.
William Black
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
> news:dfeca5$hfq$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
> > "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
> >>
> >> And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard) are
> >> now being critical of this when it was them who forced the
> >> creation of a Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in
> >> the first place.
> >
> > The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning
> > how to be a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people
> > who might win the next election.
>
> Perhaps, but there's really no place for that sort of silly shite in
> our non-parliamentary system.
We noticed.
How many dead in New Orleans so far?
Kurt Ullman
<jto...@telus.net> wrote:
>While I agree that the magnitude of the disaster was, and is, enormous, it
>is something that has been predicted for years. It was, in fact, number
>three on the Homeland Security Department's own list of most devastating
>disaster scenarios, behind a terrorist nuclear attack on a major city and a
>huge earthquake in California. Add to that the fact that the hurricane's
>path was pretty certain three days before the storm actually hit, and I
>think it is clear that more could have been done to prepare before the
>hurricane made landfall.
>
It did not become a Cat 4 or more until about 48 before
landfall and "pretty certain" was an area west of New Orleans
through Pensacola. The eye never did hit NOLA, it passed east with
the strongest part of the 'Cane hitting smacking around Biloxi. When
it looked like it would be a Cat 4 or more, 48 hours before
landfall, Pres. Bush declared the disaster areas AHEAD of time,
something that is very rare.
>The Governors and Mayors of the effected areas did all that they could to
>encourage the population to evacuate. Once the storm hit, the response
>should have been immediate. Excuses have been given saying that the response
>couldn't get through the storm ravaged areas. Bullsh*t! The ravaged areas
>and storm damage didn't stop every reporter in the eastern United States
>from getting into the effected areas. I should expect at least as much from
>the most powerful nation on earth's disaster relief organizations!
Of course, the reporters only had to get three or four people
and no supplies through. To even begin to liken the appearance of
reporters to the requirements of a rescue effort is just
unfathomable. Words fail me, which doesn't happen anywhere often
enough.
>
>I am not blaming President Bush, I honestly don't know what could have been
>done by the agencies without his oversight and approval. The point is simply
>that the ball was dropped on this one by someone and there really is no
>excuse. The tragedy that has followed the hurricane could have, and should
>have, been avoided. The next terrorist attack won't come with at least three
>days warning.
Exactly how? If there was a hurricane we wouldn't be having
this discussion. However, there was one followed by a flood and that
wasn't necessarily planned for.
Kurt Ullman
>
>> For Gawd's sake - "we don't know where to put them so we'll let
>> them go without food and water for 6 days".
>
>And just who said the quoted portion, above? Making things up, are
>we?
levees did not break until Tuesday morning, time must run very
differently for them to be without food and water for 6 days.. since
that couldn't happen before Monday.
a.spencer3
>
> Fortunately, reality doesn't seem to pay much attention to how things
> 'seem' to you.
>
The rest of the world has seen the reality, old lad.
Surreyman
Fred J. McCall
news:KeDSe.1836$Pn1....@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net:
Yes, but then many of them ignore it and believe what they want to
believe, regardless of the facts.
Fred J. McCall
$nkp$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C74373C209Ef...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dfeca5$hfq$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>>
>> > "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns96C6CD5BB7EFFf...@207.217.125.201...
>> >>
>> >> And I find it funny that Democrats (I don't mean you, Howard)
>> >> are now being critical of this when it was them who forced the
>> >> creation of a Cabinet-level Department of Homeland Security in
>> >> the first place.
>> >
>> > The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are
>> > learning how to be a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just
>> > the people who might win the next election.
>>
>> Perhaps, but there's really no place for that sort of silly shite
>> in our non-parliamentary system.
>
> We noticed.
Well, no, you merely made up ugly shite again, as usual.
> How many dead in New Orleans so far?
One too few, if assholes like you are still extant.
I don't suppose you'd care to actually connect that up to "loyal
opposition" somehow? Hell, you get people dying from weather events
that go unnoticed over here.
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BF4058A8.1BDD2%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>> On 9/4/05 5:25 AM, in article
>> BYzSe.2124$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net, "a.spencer3"
>> <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> > But Bush himself has admitted that. Who are you defending now?
>>
>> He expressed frustration that things were going so slowly but he
>> did not blame anybody because there was really nobody to blame.
>
> That's the whole point isn't it.
No, not really.
> Not one single politician in a position of authority flicked back
> their $100 haircut, reached out a manicured hand, picked up a
> phone and said:
>
> "Get your people moving, I take full responsibility".
Because most of them can't any more than they already did. And your
ignorance about what was going on before the storm hit would appear
to be pretty much total.
> Not one of those craggy faced, cigar chewing generals we see so
> much of on TV was prepared to say:
>
> "The hell with it, someone's got to save the world, boots and
> saddles boys"
We arrest them for that shit over here. It's a policy that has saved
us no end of trouble and left us free to come clean up Europe's
messes periodically.
> Everyone just sat on their collective arses, scared half to death
> of the consequences if they took some sort of action without
> orders.
You should really get back on your meds. The hallucinations are
apparently starting again.
> The press and the Democrats are saying it's because the only
> people in trouble were poor and black.
Saying "the press and the Democrats" is redundant.
> If that's true then you've got problems that make a flood and some
> storm damage look trivial.
You'll note how much traction they get with that sort of crap. The
Democratic Party in the United States is starting to remind me of the
Palestinians. If there's a way to self-inflict, they'll find it.
a.spencer3
Just what I was about to say!
Surreyman
William Black
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
> news:dfetm8$nf0$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
> >
> > "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> > news:BF4058A8.1BDD2%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
> >> On 9/4/05 5:25 AM, in article
> >> BYzSe.2124$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net, "a.spencer3"
> >> <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > But Bush himself has admitted that. Who are you defending now?
> >>
> >> He expressed frustration that things were going so slowly but he
> >> did not blame anybody because there was really nobody to blame.
> >
> > That's the whole point isn't it.
>
> No, not really.
>
> > Not one single politician in a position of authority flicked back
> > their $100 haircut, reached out a manicured hand, picked up a
> > phone and said:
> >
> > "Get your people moving, I take full responsibility".
>
> Because most of them can't any more than they already did.
Bollocks. They seem to have not filled in the proper forms and were
paralysed because of it.
> > Not one of those craggy faced, cigar chewing generals we see so
> > much of on TV was prepared to say:
> >
> > "The hell with it, someone's got to save the world, boots and
> > saddles boys"
>
> We arrest them for that shit over here. It's a policy that has saved
> us no end of trouble and left us free to come clean up Europe's
> messes periodically.
Yeah, right...
How many dead so far?
Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday morning
would be a potential candidate for president by now. That none of them did
sp seems to indicate that you have a real problem with initiative in the US
military. I hear the Airforce base at Biloxi did nothing, just stood
around and watched the chaos, it 'wasn't their job'.
There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't see it then
you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that is truly
frightening.
> > Everyone just sat on their collective arses, scared half to death
> > of the consequences if they took some sort of action without
> > orders.
>
> You should really get back on your meds. The hallucinations are
> apparently starting again.
No, you don't deny anything I've written, you're just trying to be nasty.
Your major problem is that you're not bright enough to be good at it.
> > The press and the Democrats are saying it's because the only
> > people in trouble were poor and black.
>
> Saying "the press and the Democrats" is redundant.
Been watching FOX TV again?
> > If that's true then you've got problems that make a flood and some
> > storm damage look trivial.
>
> You'll note how much traction they get with that sort of crap. The
> Democratic Party in the United States is starting to remind me of the
> Palestinians. If there's a way to self-inflict, they'll find it.
Your boys are in the shit, it's nice to see you're loyal but there's a time
for loyalty and a time for saying 'What the hell went wrong?'
Grey Satterfield
XnCSe.4921$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Kurt Ullman"
<kurtu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net>, Grey
> Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
>> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
>> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
>> seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
>> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
>> administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
>>
> They also seem to forget that the planning was for a hurricane
> and they got that followed by a flood. Had the levees held, we would
> have had to have something else to fight about.
> The other thing is that FEMA and the emergency services in
> general have done a poor job of educating the public. I have had any
> number of people tell with great sincerity that when we realized we
> needed the extra help, we should have gotten it there immediately.
> Everybody seems to think that we can decide we need 30,000 extra
> troops and just get them there in an hour or two.
Fortunately, the majority of Americans do not blame Bush for the slowness of
relief efforts. According to a poll commissioned by ABC News, hardly a
Republican house organ, 55% of respondents do not blame Bush.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1
In any event, as Kurt has noted, the criticism about the relief effort has
been naïve, given the size of the disaster.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
"Ominous" <do...@none.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 07:45:08 -0500, Grey Satterfield wrote:
>
>>> The impression I'm getting here is that the Democrats are learning how
>>> to be a 'loyal opposition' rather than being just the people who might
>>> win the next election.
>>
>> To the contrary, I have seen no indication that the Democrats have any
>> alternative suggestions. They seem merely to claim that "Bush lied" and
>> that he is "a stupid cowboy." The Dems need fresh ideas but they haven't
>> generated any that I have seen so far.
>
> And the US desperately needs the counterpoint. The Dems need to drop their
> petulant whining and start offering reasonable alternatives
I am convinced that the Democrats are not going to be a very effective
opposition very soon. Until and unless the party rescues itself from the
Moveon.org and Kos folks who really seem to believe that ever more strident
criticism of the president, without worrying much about its credibility, is
the way to win, I think it's going to be more of the same tired rants we
have been listening to for five years.
Grey Satterfield
Kurt Ullman
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>I am convinced that the Democrats are not going to be a very effective
>opposition very soon. Until and unless the party rescues itself from the
>Moveon.org and Kos folks who really seem to believe that ever more strident
>criticism of the president, without worrying much about its credibility, is
>the way to win, I think it's going to be more of the same tired rants we
>have been listening to for five years.
>
I'm starting to wonder if 2008 might boil down to who pisses off
their own wing nuts the least in the mad rush to something more
approaching the center. Which side stays home and/or sits on its
hand and/or pocketbook, may decide who gets elected.
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C752B6981AFf...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dfetm8$nf0$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>>
>> >
>> > "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
>> > news:BF4058A8.1BDD2%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>> >> On 9/4/05 5:25 AM, in article
>> >> BYzSe.2124$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net, "a.spencer3"
>> >> <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> > But Bush himself has admitted that. Who are you defending
>> >> > now?
>> >>
>> >> He expressed frustration that things were going so slowly but
>> >> he did not blame anybody because there was really nobody to
>> >> blame.
>> >
>> > That's the whole point isn't it.
>>
>> No, not really.
>>
>> > Not one single politician in a position of authority flicked
>> > back their $100 haircut, reached out a manicured hand, picked
>> > up a phone and said:
>> >
>> > "Get your people moving, I take full responsibility".
>>
>> Because most of them can't any more than they already did.
>
> Bollocks. They seem to have not filled in the proper forms and
> were paralysed because of it.
Your ignorance is apparently only surpassed by your ugliness.
You don't know how things work here. You should probably study some
before running your mouth and 'proving it to all'.
A question to ask yourself - why is Mississippi, which actually took
the brunt of the storm, not nearly the mess that Louisiana seems to
be?
>> > Not one of those craggy faced, cigar chewing generals we see so
>> > much of on TV was prepared to say:
>> >
>> > "The hell with it, someone's got to save the world, boots and
>> > saddles boys"
>>
>> We arrest them for that shit over here. It's a policy that has
>> saved us no end of trouble and left us free to come clean up
>> Europe's messes periodically.
>
> Yeah, right...
>
> How many dead so far?
One too few, if assholes like you are making comments like this.
> Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
> morning would be a potential candidate for president by now.
Any general who set off for New Orlenas with his men on Tuesday
morning would have been under arrest and on trial for violations of
the Posse Comitatus Act.
> That
> none of them did sp seems to indicate that you have a real problem
> with initiative in the US military.
That none of them did so seems to indicate that we have a military
that follows the rule of law rather than acting as a bunch of banana
republic dictators.
That you don't understand this seems to indicate that you are
virtually totally ignorant about the United States and would rather
bleat than educate yourself.
> I hear the Airforce base at
> Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos, it
> 'wasn't their job'.
And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be something
that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
> There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't see
> it then you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that
> is truly frightening.
Yes, there is something fundamentally wrong here. What it is is
ignorant sods like you acting like horse's fundaments.
>> > Everyone just sat on their collective arses, scared half to
>> > death of the consequences if they took some sort of action
>> > without orders.
>>
>> You should really get back on your meds. The hallucinations are
>> apparently starting again.
>
> No, you don't deny anything I've written, you're just trying to
> be nasty.
I also don't deny that Jews eat Christian babies, because it's such a
preposterous notion that it makes no sense to anyone who knows
anything.
And so it is with your bleating.
> Your major problem is that you're not bright enough to be good at
> it.
No, my 'major problem' is shitheaded little twats like you who take
inordinate glee any time anything bad befalls the United States. It
is *ALMOST* enough to wish upon you a similar scale of disaster, just
to watch how badly it will be mishandled.
>> > The press and the Democrats are saying it's because the only
>> > people in trouble were poor and black.
>>
>> Saying "the press and the Democrats" is redundant.
>
> Been watching FOX TV again?
Oooo, you clever boots, you! A few points for you:
1) Fox TV here is not Fox TV there.
2) Fox News is the fastest growing news department of the major TV
networks.
3) Fox News has never had anyone actually get caught fabricating
stories for political reasons. Now check out CBS.
4) Fox doesn't have a local affiliate where I live, so I don't see
much of it. I'm just better informed that stupid twats like you.
Stupid twat.
>> > If that's true then you've got problems that make a flood and
>> > some storm damage look trivial.
>>
>> You'll note how much traction they get with that sort of crap.
>> The Democratic Party in the United States is starting to remind
>> me of the Palestinians. If there's a way to self-inflict,
>> they'll find it.
>
> Your boys are in the shit, it's nice to see you're loyal but
> there's a time for loyalty and a time for saying 'What the hell
> went wrong?'
And just who would 'my boys' be, Wee Willy? If you understood the US
system of government, you would understand that much of the blame has
to come home to roost with the Louisiana state and local governments,
which are not precisely known for either their efficiency or their
honesty - oh, and they're Democrats.
Again, ask yourself why all we're hearing about is disaster in
Louisiana when it was Mississippi that took the brunt of the storm.
Stupid twat.
Fred J. McCall
$741...@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net:
Well, they say the first step in any recovery is recognizing that you
have a problem. Good luck with that 12-step program....
Grey Satterfield
<jto...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>> On 9/4/05 5:23 AM, in article QWzSe.2122$zw1...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net,
>> "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns96C691D622CACf...@207.217.125.201...
>>>> And where should he have moved them to, given that MOST of the city
>>>> is under water? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>>>
>>> Wherever it is they're bloody moving them to now at long last! For Gawd's
>>> sake - "we don't know where to put them so we'll let them go without food
>>> and water for 6 days". A really great attitude that you seem to defend.
>>> Katrina is a big blot as even the Pres has admitted. Those who defend it now
>>> .. well, I can't even imagine a suitable description. I doubt they'll find
>>> many sympathetic to them within the USA either.
>>
>> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
>> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
>> seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
>> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
>> administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
>>
>> Grey Satterfield
>
> Add to that the fact that the hurricane's path was pretty certain three days
> before the storm actually hit, and I think it is clear that more could have
> been done to prepare before the hurricane made landfall.
This is preposterous nonsense. The path of a hurricane is never certain,
"pretty" or otherwise. The path of violent weather activity is
unpredictable. Indeed, that's one of the primary reasons such systems are
so dangerous. The Angry Left really has lost its collective mind.
Grey Satterfield
Fred J. McCall
news:11258407...@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net:
>
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>>
>> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that
>> thousands of square
>> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not
>> weeks, the seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery
>> effort was inevitable.
>
> Complete and utter bollox.
I assume that was supposed to be 'bollocks', an article of anatomy
that you are apparently totally unaquainted with.
> The evacuation of the city was ordered
> by the Mayor days before the hurricane hit. The *evacuation of a
> city* - for God's sake! In any properly organised society
'Properly organized society'? This is presumably some euphemism for
a nice, tight dictatorship? After all, Mussolini made the trains run
on time, right?
> this
> should have kicked in emergency procedures, comencing with the
> procurement of buses and helicopters for those who did not have
> transport and following up with the procurement of water, food and
> medical supplies for those who would get caught up in it.
So why didn't the Mayor (Cedric Richmond (D)) do all that?
> The
> whole thing is a total shambles and is an indictment of the whole
> of the USA. Sorry pal - but that's the way it is.
How do you figure that? Have you asked yourself why Mississippi,
hardest hit by the storm, seems to be doing so much better with it
than Louisiana is?
>> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are
>> the Bush administration's political opponents, bent on scoring
>> political points.
>
> Wrong.
Yes, you are.
Educate yourself, then get back to us.
Fred J. McCall
Why, Grey, what's wrong with you? Obviously we should have evacuated
the Gulf Coast from somewhere east of Pensacola over the
Galveston....
Howard C. Berkowitz
kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote:
> In article <BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net>, Grey
> Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
> >In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of
> >square
> >miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks,
> >the
> >seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was
> >inevitable.
> >Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the
> >Bush
> >administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
> >
> They also seem to forget that the planning was for a hurricane
> and they got that followed by a flood. Had the levees held, we would
> have had to have something else to fight about.
> The other thing is that FEMA and the emergency services in
> general have done a poor job of educating the public. I have had any
> number of people tell with great sincerity that when we realized we
> needed the extra help, we should have gotten it there immediately.
> Everybody seems to think that we can decide we need 30,000 extra
> troops and just get them there in an hour or two.
>
>
In the broader discussion, it might be worth looking at good examples.
Now, I freely admit my home, in the city/county of Arlington, VA,
adjacent to Washington DC, has a number of advantages, but by no means
is a homogeneous upper-middle-class community. Local government notices
routinely, for example, go out in 2-5 languages. There is a substantial
low-income, often undocumented, alien population
Almost monthly, there are emergency training events ranging from a
couple of hours to two days or so. There's a program to have at least
one mini-emergency-services trained person per block, with more advanced
training available. Every county newsletter has a section on emergency
preparedness. Another program is giving awareness of evacuation routes.
The professional emergency services include the fire department that had
Incident Command at the Pentagon on 9/11. There are backup
communications system, such as a optical fiber system purely for
government and other infrastructure use, which was installed as one of
the conditions to get the cable TV franchise.
I'm sure other localities are doing this sort of thing. Grey, for
example, you are in established tornado country. How do local
governments prepare and educate for that threat?
William Black
> > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
> > morning would be a potential candidate for president by now.
>
> Any general who set off for New Orlenas with his men on Tuesday
> morning would have been under arrest and on trial for violations of
> the Posse Comitatus Act.
Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a hundred
years ago needs shooting.
> > I hear the Airforce base at
> > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos, it
> > 'wasn't their job'.
>
> And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be something
> that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
Well saving some lives would have been a start...
> > Your major problem is that you're not bright enough to be good at
> > it.
>
> No, my 'major problem' is shitheaded little twats like you who take
> inordinate glee any time anything bad befalls the United States. It
> is *ALMOST* enough to wish upon you a similar scale of disaster, just
> to watch how badly it will be mishandled.
Like I said, nasty but stupid.
> > Been watching FOX TV again?
>
> Oooo, you clever boots, you! A few points for you:
>
> 1) Fox TV here is not Fox TV there.
We don't have Fox TV here.
I notice Dallas has disappeared, it seems he knows when to stop flogging a
dead horse...
Howard C. Berkowitz
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
contact with local emergency services?
>That none of them
> did
> sp seems to indicate that you have a real problem with initiative in the
> US
> military. I hear the Airforce base at Biloxi did nothing, just stood
> around and watched the chaos, it 'wasn't their job'.
More likely, unless in the immediate disaster area, relieved of command
and awaiting court-martial. Yes, standing units in disaster areas have
reacted for local relief.
Air Force base? As, perhaps, in being one of the closest facilities
equipped for bringing in airlifted troops and marshalling ground
convoys, which certainly would be their job?
>
> There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't see it then
> you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that is truly
> frightening.
And you are blind to the realities of logistics, of coordinating
efforts, and some constitutional provisions and laws very careful of
acting without authorization.
One of the major problems in Houston, perhaps the largest "transit"
cities nearby, is large numbers of medical volunteers, often without
credentials or the ability to support themselves, showing up without
notice and disrupting a very well run medical system.
I have been watching the details of some National Guard units in other
states preparing. It takes time to schedule them onto aircraft, and one
of the reasons for delay is that the national level wanted them to be
carrying enough bottled water both for themselves and for distribution.
The emergency management newsletters, mailing lists, etc., are full of
less obvious prioritization. There was criticism of some fires not
being fought in New Orleans. They were not being fought because a
difficult higher-priority task had been selected for their pumps:
refilling the cooling water system at the major telephone interconnect
point in the city, whose tanks had run dry and, if the equipment
overheated could destroy almost all remaining landline and some cellular
communications
Kurt Ullman
>Air Force base? As, perhaps, in being one of the closest facilities
>equipped for bringing in airlifted troops and marshalling ground
>convoys, which certainly would be their job?
>
Or more likely digging out their own selves. Apparently Mr. B
thinks some cloaking device drops down around military
establishments making them immune from things going on around them.
For instance:
RED HORSE to the rescue
>
>
> HURLBURT FIELD, Fla. - Combat engineers capable of rapid
deployment into war zones are proving to be effective first
responders in bringing aid to > areas devastaed by Hurricane
Katrina. Members of the 823rd RED HORSE squadron at Hurlburt Field,
Fla. left early Tuesday morning bound fo Keesler Air Force Base,
Miss., some of the worst-hit areas in the deadly storm's wake.
The first team of RED HORSE troops
> consisted of a 20-person combat engineering team that assessed
damage and
> aligned supplies while literally cutting their way to the base.
> "It's hard to imagine, but our people had to literally chainsaw
their route to the base," described Col. Lyon. "They found roads
impassible and had to hunt for alternate routes. For many paths,
they were the first to clear roadways - they made it possible for
others to get aid to Keesler."
William Black
"Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
news:hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday morning
> > would be a potential candidate for president by now.
>
> What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
> coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
> contact with local emergency services?
I would have thought that the units requested by the Louisiana Governor, who
were held up because of paperwork cock-ups, would have deployed at once,
and to hell with the paperwork.
> > There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't see it
then
> > you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that is truly
> > frightening.
>
> And you are blind to the realities of logistics, of coordinating
> efforts, and some constitutional provisions and laws very careful of
> acting without authorization.
People were dying.
Nothing happened for four days.
That everyone is busy saying 'Look, it's nobody's fault, that's the
system' is indicative of a broken system.
That you're defending that system is admirable, it is, after all, your
system, but surely after this ghastly travesty of a relief operation the
system must be changed.
I believe that acts passed to stop the military intervening were passed
after excesses at the end of the American Civil War and are not part of the
Constitution and so no major political principle is at stake here, just an
old law that has obviously outlived it usefulness.
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C75FEFB414Cf...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dff38m$pgr$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
>> > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
>> > morning would be a potential candidate for president by now.
>>
>> Any general who set off for New Orlenas with his men on Tuesday
>> morning would have been under arrest and on trial for violations
>> of the Posse Comitatus Act.
>
> Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a
> hundred years ago needs shooting.
So you are a fan of military officers ignoring the law and taking off
on their own hook, are you?
>> > I hear the Airforce base at
>> > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos,
>> > it 'wasn't their job'.
>>
>> And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be
>> something that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
>
> Well saving some lives would have been a start...
In other words, you have nothing to suggest at all.
>> > Your major problem is that you're not bright enough to be good
>> > at it.
>>
>> No, my 'major problem' is shitheaded little twats like you who
>> take inordinate glee any time anything bad befalls the United
>> States. It is *ALMOST* enough to wish upon you a similar scale
>> of disaster, just to watch how badly it will be mishandled.
>
> Like I said, nasty but stupid.
Yes, you are. That is why I say "ALMOST", even though you are
chortling about what happened to us.
>> > Been watching FOX TV again?
>>
>> Oooo, you clever boots, you! A few points for you:
>>
>> 1) Fox TV here is not Fox TV there.
>
> We don't have Fox TV here.
So how can you make snotty statements such as that above?
> I notice Dallas has disappeared, it seems he knows when to stop
> flogging a dead horse...
Or knows when to stop wasting time on a stupid prat like you.
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
> news:hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
>> > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
>> > morning would be a potential candidate for president by now.
>>
>> What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
>> coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
>> contact with local emergency services?
>
> I would have thought that the units requested by the Louisiana
> Governor, who were held up because of paperwork cock-ups, would
> have deployed at once, and to hell with the paperwork.
Cite?
>> > There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't
>> > see it then
>> > you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that is
>> > truly frightening.
>>
>> And you are blind to the realities of logistics, of coordinating
>> efforts, and some constitutional provisions and laws very careful
>> of acting without authorization.
>
> People were dying.
True.
> Nothing happened for four days.
False.
> That everyone is busy saying 'Look, it's nobody's fault, that's
> the system' is indicative of a broken system.
I don't see anyone saying that. I see you bleating and people
pointing out reality. You may think reality is amenable to change
simply by wishing hard enough in hindsight, but sane people know
better.
> That you're defending that system is admirable, it is, after
> all, your system, but surely after this ghastly travesty of a
> relief operation the system must be changed.
Presumably to a nice tight little dictatorship of the proletariate
that would replace the Louisiana political machine.
> I believe that acts passed to stop the military intervening were
> passed after excesses at the end of the American Civil War and are
> not part of the Constitution and so no major political principle
> is at stake here, just an old law that has obviously outlived it
> usefulness.
Except that it hasn't.
Grey Satterfield
hcb-D292E1.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Howard C. Berkowitz"
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> In article <XnCSe.4921$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote:
>
>> In article <BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net>, Grey
>> Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that thousands of square
>>> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not weeks, the
>>> seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery effort was inevitable.
>>> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are the Bush
>>> administration's political opponents, bent on scoring political points.
>>>
>> They also seem to forget that the planning was for a hurricane
>> and they got that followed by a flood. Had the levees held, we would
>> have had to have something else to fight about.
>> The other thing is that FEMA and the emergency services in
>> general have done a poor job of educating the public. I have had any
>> number of people tell with great sincerity that when we realized we
>> needed the extra help, we should have gotten it there immediately.
>> Everybody seems to think that we can decide we need 30,000 extra
>> troops and just get them there in an hour or two.
>
> I'm sure other localities are doing this sort of thing. Grey, for
> example, you are in established tornado country. How do local
> governments prepare and educate for that threat?
In tornado country we rely on TV, radio, and a system of warning sirens.
People are instructed to take cover in interior areas or go to shelters, if
available. In the early stages, what happens is what happens. The relief
efforts can come only later.
Tornado relief is exponentially easier than the nightmare relief workers are
dealing with on the Gulf coast where thousands of square miles are under
water. This is why I think most of the complaints over the delay and
confusion during the early days of relief efforts -- which will be going on
for months if not years -- are either naïve or politically motivated.
Grey Satterfield
Howard C. Berkowitz
kurtu...@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote:
> In article <hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net>,
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>
> >Air Force base? As, perhaps, in being one of the closest facilities
> >equipped for bringing in airlifted troops and marshalling ground
> >convoys, which certainly would be their job?
> >
> Or more likely digging out their own selves. Apparently Mr. B
> thinks some cloaking device drops down around military
> establishments making them immune from things going on around them.
> For instance:
> RED HORSE to the rescue
Get your story straight. They aren't cloaking devices, but cloaking
horses. Without horse trailers, or stall-equipped C-130s, their movement
takes time.
Grey Satterfield
hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Howard C. Berkowitz"
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
William's complaints are not credible and politically motivated, it seems to
me. Indeed that is why, as Howard abley demonstrated in his response, they
are unconvincing. When thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies
have to be transported into an affected area that is largely under water,
it's going to be slow going for awhile. It makes me sick to my stomach to
see William and others use this tragedy as a platform to express their
preexisting prejudice against George W. Bush.
Grey Satterfield
William Black
> > Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a
> > hundred years ago needs shooting.
>
> So you are a fan of military officers ignoring the law and taking off
> on their own hook, are you?
It's called initiative.
It seems you're against it.
> >> > I hear the Airforce base at
> >> > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos,
> >> > it 'wasn't their job'.
> >>
> >> And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be
> >> something that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
> >
> > Well saving some lives would have been a start...
>
> In other words, you have nothing to suggest at all.
It seems that direct action by the US military in a disaster area isn't
against the law. They still did nothing...
Howard C. Berkowitz
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
> news:hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
> > > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
> > > morning
> > > would be a potential candidate for president by now.
> >
> > What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
> > coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
> > contact with local emergency services?
>
> I would have thought that the units requested by the Louisiana Governor,
> who
> were held up because of paperwork cock-ups, would have deployed at once,
> and to hell with the paperwork.
I'm not sure I follow. Which units were being held up by paperwork?
LANG? If not, which?
>
> > > There's something fundamentally wrong here, and if you can't see it
> then
> > > you're suffering from a form of selective blindness that is truly
> > > frightening.
> >
> > And you are blind to the realities of logistics, of coordinating
> > efforts, and some constitutional provisions and laws very careful of
> > acting without authorization.
>
> People were dying.
>
> Nothing happened for four days.
>
> That everyone is busy saying 'Look, it's nobody's fault, that's the
> system' is indicative of a broken system.
The key question I have is at which points was the Incident Command
System (ICS), ICS-Joint Command, and ICS-National Response were
activated. That is the fundamental command and control mechanism, in
North America, for disaster operations.
In some cases, ICS was being violated by well-meaning but uninvited
volunteers. I am receiving reports from the director of medical response
in Houston. They feel as if they are spending too much time sorting out
the messes caused by well-meaning but uninvited volunteers, rather than
dealing with the direct problem. It's fairly standard, worldwide, to
take units of pretrained, self-contained medical units, than to take
individual medical personnel without disaster training.
One example was an uninvited team that started wearing masks and started
a near-panic over a nonexistent respiratory disease. Another was an
oversupply of surgeons.
At the Houston Astrodome, the emergency medical system simply has not
had a requirement for surgery. While putting a trauma surgeon in charge
is standard procedure for emergency hospitals, Houston has gone out of
the box and named a family medicine physician as Astrodome medical
director, and he is doing extremely well, writing new pages in how to
manage a disaster when mass trauma is not the problem.
>
> That you're defending that system is admirable, it is, after all, your
> system, but surely after this ghastly travesty of a relief operation the
> system must be changed.
Unquestionably, there are many problems. I agree with your points about
Posse Comitatus probably being obsolete.
You do not appear, however, to have much knowledge of the Incident
Command System or how logistical support to major disasters must be
staged. Every disaster will also have its own special needs. For
example, I am receiving the detailed communications restoration plans.
The #1 priority is not the actual communications equipment or personnel,
but generators + fuel, and, in some cases, air conditioners/chillers.
New Orleans had to make a hard decision not to fight some fires,
deciding the pumpers were more critical to restoring chilled water
service at a major communications node.
>
> I believe that acts passed to stop the military intervening were passed
> after excesses at the end of the American Civil War and are not part of
> the
> Constitution and so no major political principle is at stake here, just
> an
> old law that has obviously outlived it usefulness.
That is probably true. Nevertheless, military units on pure rescue
missions do not, for good reason, deploy before the disaster strikes.
When the scope and needs of the emergency are not known, which unit
deploys to what point? If you don't have that information, you might put
a military police battalion exactly where combat engineers will be
needed, and vice versa.
After the disaster, when there is limited transport, the deployments
have to be prioritized. There also may be reconfiguration or special
supplies needed. For example, one California National Guard unit sent an
advance headquarters unit, to confirm local requirements and access, as
soon as interstate movement was authorized. The main airlift was held
up, however, when the advance party determined that it was essential,
for its mission, to bring substantial supplies of drinking water for
both its own survival and for distribution. A Coca-Cola bottling plant
was diverted into filling every possible bottle with water, and then
palletizing these for air shipment.
Brian Sharrock
>
snip
> Oooo, you clever boots, you! A few points for you:
>
> 1) Fox TV here is not Fox TV there.
>
From his bigoted 'fox'hole Fred doesn't seem to
realise that there isn't a "Fox TV" here - that is in the UK.
Fox is part of the Murdoch empire which operates the 'SkyB TV"
network over _here_. What we see in the UK _here_ is what's being
transmitted (or relayed; if Fred prefers) _there_ (USA).
Fox TV here _is_ Fox TV there! Give or take a few up
and down bounces! Of course the time-zone 'gap' screws
up the things so _we_ (over here) watch 'Breakfast' TV
(over there) at lunchtime (over here)!
So Fred! Admit it! You're wrong ... !
--
Brian
William Black
>
> William's complaints are not credible and politically motivated, it seems
to
> me. Indeed that is why, as Howard abley demonstrated in his response,
they
> are unconvincing. When thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies
> have to be transported into an affected area that is largely under water,
> it's going to be slow going for awhile. It makes me sick to my stomach to
> see William and others use this tragedy as a platform to express their
> preexisting prejudice against George W. Bush.
Actually, as far as I can see, George W Bush is yelling blue murder about
it being a cock-up of unacceptable proportions.
He's the only US politician visible from this end who isn't saying 'it
wasn't me', he's also saying 'something must be done'.
It's reasonably obvious that George W Bush didn't fail, the whole system
failed.
William Black
"Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:M%GSe.1779$Y06...@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
Fred doesn't do that, in that respect he's like Hines, he just goes quiet.
Vince Brannigan
> William's complaints are not credible and politically motivated, it seems to
> me. Indeed that is why, as Howard abley demonstrated in his response, they
> are unconvincing. When thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies
> have to be transported into an affected area that is largely under water,
> it's going to be slow going for awhile. It makes me sick to my stomach to
> see William and others use this tragedy as a platform to express their
> preexisting prejudice against George W. Bush.
>
> Grey Satterfield
The total response to Katrina was a complete screwup at all levels.
Bush has "overall" responsiblity for the command screw ups at DHS, which
are well documented. However the fundamental responsibility is at the
state level.
New Orleans was a flood risk. any "disaster plan" that depends on
" thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies have to be
transported into an affected area that is largely under water"
Is a recipe for disaster.
Vince
Howard C. Berkowitz
<grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
I was referring to citizen preparation. The tornado shelter is a staple
of movies, but I've never lived in tornado country -- there's one every
10 years or so in the DC area, and I can't remember one that hit more
than a few blocks in nearly 40 years.
Does the average Oklahoman have an idea what to do under tornado watches
and warnings, and to what extent do they do personal preparation?
From personal experience, it's hard to avoid earthquake information in
San Francisco. Indeed, for many years, I was required, when doing
classes for Cisco, to recite a set of earthquake instructions at the
start of the class -- no matter where in the world I was giving the
seminar.
Mac_Ray
> "Mac_Ray" <axha...@clara.co.uk> wrote in
> news:11258407...@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net:
>
> >
> > "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> > news:BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
> >>
> >> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that
> >> thousands of square
> >> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if not
> >> weeks, the seeming clumsiness of the first days of the recovery
> >> effort was inevitable.
> >
> > Complete and utter bollox.
>
> I assume that was supposed to be 'bollocks', an article of anatomy
> that you are apparently totally unaquainted with.
Quite wrong little man. It's usenet speak for you're talking shite. Do you
understand "talking shite"?
>
> > The evacuation of the city was ordered
> > by the Mayor days before the hurricane hit. The *evacuation of a
> > city* - for God's sake! In any properly organised society
>
> 'Properly organized society'? This is presumably some euphemism for
> a nice, tight dictatorship? After all, Mussolini made the trains run
> on time, right?
Properly organised society is English for properly organised society. Which
bit of that don't you understand?
>
> > this
> > should have kicked in emergency procedures, comencing with the
> > procurement of buses and helicopters for those who did not have
> > transport and following up with the procurement of water, food and
> > medical supplies for those who would get caught up in it.
>
> So why didn't the Mayor (Cedric Richmond (D)) do all that?
Why didn't *anyone* do that?
>
> > The
> > whole thing is a total shambles and is an indictment of the whole
> > of the USA. Sorry pal - but that's the way it is.
>
> How do you figure that? Have you asked yourself why Mississippi,
> hardest hit by the storm, seems to be doing so much better with it
> than Louisiana is?
Because it didn't hit a city with 0.5 million people in it. Next....
>
> >> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this are
> >> the Bush administration's political opponents, bent on scoring
> >> political points.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> Yes, you are.
>
> Educate yourself, then get back to us.
You haven't addressed a single point I made - other than to occupy yourself
with snide irrelevant little comments. Clearly I pricked some sore wee part
of your patriotic heart. For which I am not sorry.
RTO Trainer
The first problem is your faulty premise; that nothing happened for
four days.
The truth iks that what you expected/wanted didn't happen in that
time, but it was far from nothing.
--
COFFEE.EXE missing. Insert CUP and press ENTER to retry.
SGT Robert White
25U20, OKARNG
William Black
> You do not appear, however, to have much knowledge of the Incident
> Command System or how logistical support to major disasters must be
> staged.
I don't know how the US system works but I've some experience in disaster
management and recovery, theory anyway, thank goodness I never had to do
any for real.
> I am receiving the detailed communications restoration plans.
> The #1 priority is not the actual communications equipment or personnel,
> but generators + fuel, and, in some cases, air conditioners/chillers.
> New Orleans had to make a hard decision not to fight some fires,
> deciding the pumpers were more critical to restoring chilled water
> service at a major communications node.
Again I can understand that, it was communication systems I was involved in
as well.
I know that the British Red Cross has a small but complete telephone switch
and satellite link built into two Land Rover vehicles ready for immediate
shipment anywhere it is needed.
It's small, (1028 lines adn an E1 uplink) but it works.
The BRC offered aid on Tuesday, it was refused...
> That is probably true. Nevertheless, military units on pure rescue
> missions do not, for good reason, deploy before the disaster strikes.
> When the scope and needs of the emergency are not known, which unit
> deploys to what point? If you don't have that information, you might put
> a military police battalion exactly where combat engineers will be
> needed, and vice versa.
People were told to go to a 'safe' location. But there doesn't seem to have
been anyone in charge there.
If someone had have been, with even basic communications equipment, then
this wouldn't have been a problem.
All it needed was a couple of people to say what was needed, a couple of
dozen cops to keep them safe, two or three Irridium telephones and a
generator set to keep them charged.
This is all horribly basic stuff, and nobody seems to have been doing any
of it.
Fred J. McCall
$Y06...@newsfe2-win.ntli.net:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C75FEFB414Cf...@207.217.125.201...
>>
>> Oooo, you clever boots, you! A few points for you:
>>
>> 1) Fox TV here is not Fox TV there.
>>
>
> From his bigoted 'fox'hole Fred doesn't seem to
> realise that there isn't a "Fox TV" here - that is in the UK.
And it would appear that Sharrocks, like foxes, can't smell their
own. You see, as I elsewhere noted, there isn't a Fox TV *here*,
either.
> Fox is part of the Murdoch empire which operates the 'SkyB TV"
> network over _here_. What we see in the UK _here_ is what's being
> transmitted (or relayed; if Fred prefers) _there_ (USA).
>
> Fox TV here _is_ Fox TV there! Give or take a few up
> and down bounces! Of course the time-zone 'gap' screws
> up the things so _we_ (over here) watch 'Breakfast' TV
> (over there) at lunchtime (over here)!
I'd bet you're getting a pretty carefully selected picture with
original material.
> So Fred! Admit it! You're wrong ... !
Wanna bet?
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C76F3476B9Df...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dff93t$rj2$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
>> > Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a
>> > hundred years ago needs shooting.
>>
>> So you are a fan of military officers ignoring the law and taking
>> off on their own hook, are you?
>
> It's called initiative.
No, it's not. Initiative takes place within the bounds of the law.
It's called criminal mutiny.
> It seems you're against it.
I'm against the military going off on its own hook in violation of
the law.
You, on the other hand, are apparently for it.
>> >> > I hear the Airforce base at
>> >> > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the
>> >> > chaos, it 'wasn't their job'.
>> >>
>> >> And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be
>> >> something that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
>> >
>> > Well saving some lives would have been a start...
>>
>> In other words, you have nothing to suggest at all.
>
> It seems that direct action by the US military in a disaster area
> isn't against the law. They still did nothing...
It most certainly, is until such time as requested by State officials
and the area is designated as a Federal disaster area.
Again, reality seems to care very little for how "it seems" to Wee
Willie....
William Black
> > It seems that direct action by the US military in a disaster area
> > isn't against the law. They still did nothing...
>
> It most certainly, is until such time as requested by State officials
> and the area is designated as a Federal disaster area.
I somehow doubt that charges would have been brought in this case.
Even if they were, who on earth would convict?
Stop being silly, the system broke, it didn't work, President Bush says
so.
I agree with him.
Fred J. McCall
news:fzCSe.162870$wr.57733@clgrps12:
> The ravaged areas and storm damage didn't stop
> every reporter in the eastern United States from getting into the
> effected areas. I should expect at least as much from the most
> powerful nation on earth's disaster relief organizations!
And you got it. In fact, you got several orders of magnitude more,
since that is the measure of people gotten out and helped and tonnage
of relieve material and such when compared to the number of newsies who
got in.
Try not to be quite so ignorant in future. If you want to bleat, start
with some facts.
Curt Emanuel
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dffagh$s1e$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
> news:hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
> > > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
morning
> > > would be a potential candidate for president by now.
> >
> > What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
> > coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
> > contact with local emergency services?
>
> I would have thought that the units requested by the Louisiana Governor,
who
> were held up because of paperwork cock-ups, would have deployed at once,
> and to hell with the paperwork.
I have a fairly strong aversion to discussing current events on this ng - I
have real people I have lunch with to talk about that with but they aren't
much on history.
But there's been such a woeful ignorance displayed by people on how the
Emergency Response System is designed to work that I'm feeling compelled.
The Governor of Lousiana needs one thing to get National Guard troops in her
state - a cooperative/aid agreement signed with the Governor of another
state placing troops at her disposal. Those troops then come under her
command - NOT the Federal Government. The only paperwork is notification -
the Feds don't need to approve it because those troops are under the command
of that State's government.
In fact, any National Guard deployed in a State to respond to a disaster
are, by law, under command of the State - not the Feds. In fact, the Feds
were so disgusted by how the state was handling Guard deployments in the
response that they requested that control be turned over to them from
Louisiana on Friday - a request that was refused.
Where Guard units went and how they were deployed was not due to the Federal
Government.
>
> People were dying.
>
> Nothing happened for four days.
>
> That everyone is busy saying 'Look, it's nobody's fault, that's the
> system' is indicative of a broken system.
Well, it IS somebody's fault.
In order they are:
1a) The Director of New Orleans' Emergency Management
1b) The Mayor of New Orleans
Without actually knowing what went on internally it's impossible to separate
the two at this time.
First, it is absolutely horrible that the people were sent to the two
designated shelters in New Orleans, the Superdome and Convention Center,
without stockpiles of food and water on hand. Every local Emergency
Management Association Emergency Plan has the statement that local
authorities must be prepared to operate without aid for 72 to 96 hours.
Stocking shelters with food and water to sustain the population for that
period of time is essential - especially when the city had three days'
warning to make that happen.
IMO the local Director of Emergency Management should be fired - today. Even
if the Mayor said, "Let's not worry about that," it's the Local Director's
statutory responsibility to ensure that shelters are provided with the
necessities of life. If they don't have the necessities of life then they
shouldn't even be classified as shelters.
This is a failure in the Duty of Care of local government that borders on
criminal IMO.
Second, not at least making certain that emergency facilities, including
hospitals, had a supply of fuel to run generators for an event which
everyone knew would knock power for an extended period of time - and further
not providing security for emergency facilities - is another failure which
borders on criminal.
Third, ordering an evacuation with more than 24 hours notice and making some
sort of provision for the poor and infirm would have made sense.
Now these are the areas I'm more comfortable commenting on as I have an
Emergency Response Role in my own Community.
Every Community must have an Emergency Response Plan. The duty for assuring
that the plan is executed lies with the Director of Emergency Management.
And the first two points I mention above are absolutely mandatory - that
shelters be identified, the public notified, and these be supplied with the
necessities to sustain life.
There is no excuse for that much not being done - and the fault for this
lies squarely with the City of New Orleans.
Then we have a Mayor who just doesn't have a clue. He's gone on the radio,
first griping about lack of command and control from the Feds. Hate to tell
you Mayor, but the statutory requirement for initial command and control
lies with you. This is also a mandated provision of the emergency plan and
when state or federal assistance arrives it's the local community's
responsibility to tell them where you need the help.
Next, outside help doesn't arrive until you ask. This has been in place ever
since Hurricane Andrew when aid arrived and nobody knew what to do with it -
they wasted more time figuring out what to do with it then if it had come
days later. You can have cooperative agreements signed in advance with state
and federal authorities - but you still set up local command and control so
you can tell them what you need, what the situation is, how they can best
help.
The statement I have reads like this:
In the event the mutual aid resources are not sufficient to meet the
requirements, the Executive head of the affected jurisdiction, or his
representative, may request assistance from the state.
That's standard, in every local plan. The state has similar wording. Yet
Nagin didn't know this. You'd think, with a hurricane bearing down, that he
might have picked up the Incident Command Manual. Or even the Plan.
These are mandated, statutory requirements - which the Mayor of New Orleans
was unaware of.
Now I'm not saying the Feds didn't have some screwups. For one thing, maybe
Bush should have declared the local government as incapable of functioning,
relieved Nagin and had the feds take over. I think local incompetence was
pretty clear when it became evident that nobody told FEMA there were people
in the Convention Center until Thursday - 3 days after the Hurricane.
The Governor for darn sure should have requested National Guard assistance
to someone other than the neighboring states that were also hit by the
disaster.
It's clear the the government of the city of New Orleans, and to some extent
the State of New Orleans, were incompetent.
This administration has had almost universally high marks for disaster
response. They received high marks in response from the governors of
Mississippi and Alabama in this very tragedy - with troops on the ground
engaged in SAR late Monday - before the storm had even fallen below
hurricane strength.
Last year the administration was criticized for the Hurricane Charlie
response - critics said his response was so immediate because Bush was
trying to win votes. Of course the response was equally quick with Hurricane
Isabel in a non-election year.
It'll take a while for all this to come out in the wash and since the Feds
do have a duty in providing training for Local Emergency Management
Associations under DHS you can make an argument for guilt by association.
But we've had three training session, totalling 5 days in my little podunk
county of 30,000 people over the last 3 years. I can't imagine the Feds (or
consultants hired by the Feds) not spending a lot more time in a 1.3 million
metro area.
When an administration has had an almost spotless record for dealing with
emergencies, and where their response has been highly praised in surrounding
areas during the same disaster, then when I look at local governments who
have exhibited such a lack of understanding of emergency response, and such
negligence regarding their Duty of Care, I have a pretty strong opinion on
where the fault lies - and it's not with the system when you have
responsible people in their jobs, and it doesn't seem to be at the Federal
Level.
And I sincerely hope I haven't thrown myself head first into this
discussion. It's not why I read SHM. But the lack of knowledge being tossed
about has been astonishing.
Curt Emanuel
jackli...@earthlink.net
I thought I posted this. Keesler AFB is literally in the middle of
Biloxi, it is a matter of crossing a railroad track and a street (Irish
Hill Road) and you are half a mile from the water's edge.
Editorial in the Biloxi, MS, Sun-Herald for Wednesday August 31
Posted on Wed, Aug. 31, 2005
South Mississippi needs your help
The coastal communities of South Mississippi are desperately in need of
an unprecedented relief effort.
We understand that New Orleans also was devastated by Hurricane
Katrina, but surely this nation has the resources to rescue both that
metropolitan and ours.
Whatever plans that were in place to deal with such a natural disaster
have proven inadequate. Perhaps destruction on this scale could not
have been adequately prepared for.
But now that it has taken place, no effort should be spared to mitigate
the hurricane's impact.
The essentials -- ice, gasoline, medicine -- simply are not getting
here fast enough.
We are not calling on the nation and the state to make life more
comfortable in South Mississippi, we are calling on the nation and the
state to make life here possible.
We would bolster our argument with the number of Katrina casualties
confirmed thus far, but if there is such a confirmed number, no one is
releasing it to the public. This lack of faith in the publics' ability
to handle the truth is not sparing anyone's feelings, it is instead
fueling terrifying rumors.
While the flow of information is frustratingly difficult, our reporters
have yet to find evidence of a coordinated approach to relieve pain and
hunger or to secure property and maintain order.
People are hurting and people are being vandalized.
*******
Yet where is the National Guard, why hasn't every able-bodied member of
the armed forces in South Mississippi been pressed into service?
On Wednesday reporters listening to horrific stories of death and
survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across
Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and
performing calisthenics.
Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!
When asked why these young men were not being used to help in the
recovery effort, our reporters were told that it would be pointless to
send military personnel down to the beach to pick up debris.
*******
Howard C. Berkowitz
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C75FEFB414Cf...@207.217.125.201...
> > "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
> > news:dff38m$pgr$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
> > > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
> > > morning would be a potential candidate for president by now.
> >
> > Any general who set off for New Orlenas with his men on Tuesday
> > morning would have been under arrest and on trial for violations of
> > the Posse Comitatus Act.
>
> Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a hundred
> years ago needs shooting.
When did it start becoming silly? Indeed, do you know why it was enacted?
I happen to believe it needs revision, but I also know the framework
that's appropriate for it, both legally and operationally.
>
>
> > > I hear the Airforce base at
> > > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos, it
> > > 'wasn't their job'.
> >
> > And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be something
> > that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
>
> Well saving some lives would have been a start...
Actually, individual rescue was not necessarily the highest priority.
One of the critical requirements is restoring communications and power
for emergency service locations, especially the command posts that are
trying to bring in resources in the order of need.
Again, exactly how would they have saved lives? Let's say you have a
National Guard Field Artillery Battalion. It isn't equipped with boats.
I'd have to check the latest TO&E, but I don't think it has organic
helicopters. It has very little medical capability.
Its radios and generators might be more needed than the people. Again,
how do you propose artillerymen, who may not know the local area, will
go about "saving lives"? Indeed, how does the local law enforcement
command not know they are local clowns wearing stolen uniforms and
running around with rifles, and taking them under fire?
>
>
> I notice Dallas has disappeared, it seems he knows when to stop flogging
> a
> dead horse...
Unless you start demonstrating some knowledge of emergency operations,
your horse is beginning to decompose. Vague "save lives" orders are not
especially implementable.
Fred J. McCall
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C7785161BC7f...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dffdr9$ta6$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
>> > It seems that direct action by the US military in a disaster
>> > area isn't against the law. They still did nothing...
>>
>> It most certainly, is until such time as requested by State
>> officials and the area is designated as a Federal disaster area.
>
> I somehow doubt that charges would have been brought in this case.
And reality seems to pay as much attention to your doubts as it does
to how things seem to you - ie, damned little.
> Even if they were, who on earth would convict?
Virtually any military court.
> Stop being silly, the system broke, it didn't work, President
> Bush says so.
Cite? That's not what he said at all.
> I agree with him.
No, you agree with YOU. What he said isn't what you claim.
Howard C. Berkowitz
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BF40A45A.1BE21%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
> >
> > William's complaints are not credible and politically motivated, it
> > seems
> to
> > me. Indeed that is why, as Howard abley demonstrated in his response,
> they
> > are unconvincing. When thousands of relief workers and tons of
> > supplies
> > have to be transported into an affected area that is largely under
> > water,
> > it's going to be slow going for awhile. It makes me sick to my stomach
> > to
> > see William and others use this tragedy as a platform to express their
> > preexisting prejudice against George W. Bush.
>
> Actually, as far as I can see, George W Bush is yelling blue murder
> about
> it being a cock-up of unacceptable proportions.
"As far as you can see" seems very appropriate. You haven't given any
evidence of how it could have been done better, or if your eye is
trained to see anything beyond chaos and emote about it.
It wouldn't hurt you to browse around at http://www.emforum.org, or the
Incident Command sections of http://www.fema.gov, or the disaster
communications restoration pages at http://www.ncs.gov, so you might be
able to point to specifics.
>
> He's the only US politician visible from this end who isn't saying 'it
> wasn't me', he's also saying 'something must be done'.
>
> It's reasonably obvious that George W Bush didn't fail, the whole system
> failed.
Everywhere? Or what specific parts failed? Do you know what the
local-state-Federal system consists of? Did ICS-NR not get invoked in
time (I don't know, but I admit that)?
Apparently, New Orleans police radio largely collapsed. What are the
reasons? How should emergency communications be restored?
Grey Satterfield
hcb-6FE4F7.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Howard C. Berkowitz"
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
> I was referring to citizen preparation. The tornado shelter is a staple
> of movies, but I've never lived in tornado country -- there's one every
> 10 years or so in the DC area, and I can't remember one that hit more
> than a few blocks in nearly 40 years.
>
> Does the average Oklahoman have an idea what to do under tornado watches
> and warnings, and to what extent do they do personal preparation?
>
> From personal experience, it's hard to avoid earthquake information in
> San Francisco. Indeed, for many years, I was required, when doing
> classes for Cisco, to recite a set of earthquake instructions at the
> start of the class -- no matter where in the world I was giving the
> seminar.
People understand that they need to watch TV or listen to the radio during
heavy weather. Many radio stations broadcast the TV stations' weathermen's
weather information. The TV weathermen here have historically been among
the best in the country; the good ones are attracted because our weather
patterns are so interesting, not to mention dangerous.
Tornados are such a crap shoot that going to a shelter, if you don't have
one in your backyard or are in a building with a basement, is really not
indicated. The worst place you can be caught in a tornado is in a car
(unless it's a mobile home) and in the greater scheme of things, the chances
of the structure where you are being destroyed by one are remote. I have
taken shelter during a tornado in a shower stall in an interior bathroom in
my house twice in the 38 years I have lived here. Once, though, when I came
out three big trees in my front yard had been uprooted and much of two even
larger ones in the back had huge branches blown down. Fortunately, though,
my house was not damaged.
Forty years ago a neighbor of mine in my old neighborhood was caught in a
tornado in Wichita, Kansas in which a couple of people died in very close
proximity to his sister's house, where he and his family were staying.
Their first act when they got back home was to have a tornado shelter
installed in their back yard.
Grey Satterfield
Howard C. Berkowitz
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
> news:hcb-97E8C9.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>
> > You do not appear, however, to have much knowledge of the Incident
> > Command System or how logistical support to major disasters must be
> > staged.
>
> I don't know how the US system works but I've some experience in disaster
> management and recovery, theory anyway, thank goodness I never had to
> do
> any for real.
This is a serious question, not a challenge. Is the Incident Command
System used in the UK or continental Europe? Properly run, it works
extremely well.
Not every jurisdiction uses it. When I last looked, there were also
between one and two billion dollars of Federal money for making
emergency response communications interoperable among jurisdictions.
Very little has been used.
There's also some very decent government-funded software for managing
ICS, DM-Services, available free to anyone involved in emergency
response. It's not as widely used as it should be, and it's a powerful
system that works from local to national level, and is designed to be
open software that easily interfaces to special and local systems.
>
> > I am receiving the detailed communications restoration plans.
> > The #1 priority is not the actual communications equipment or
> > personnel,
> > but generators + fuel, and, in some cases, air conditioners/chillers.
> > New Orleans had to make a hard decision not to fight some fires,
> > deciding the pumpers were more critical to restoring chilled water
> > service at a major communications node.
>
> Again I can understand that, it was communication systems I was involved
> in as well.
>
> I know that the British Red Cross has a small but complete telephone
> switch
> and satellite link built into two Land Rover vehicles ready for immediate
> shipment anywhere it is needed.
>
> It's small, (1028 lines adn an E1 uplink) but it works.
>
> The BRC offered aid on Tuesday, it was refused...
I appreciate the offer. If, however, the offer was of the communications
switch, how, exactly, does an E1 uplink (in the SDH transmission
hierarchy) with A-law digitizing fit into the North American system,
which uses T1 (in the PDH transmission hierarchy) and mu-law digitizing?
>
> > That is probably true. Nevertheless, military units on pure rescue
> > missions do not, for good reason, deploy before the disaster strikes.
> > When the scope and needs of the emergency are not known, which unit
> > deploys to what point? If you don't have that information, you might
> > put
> > a military police battalion exactly where combat engineers will be
> > needed, and vice versa.
>
> People were told to go to a 'safe' location. But there doesn't seem to
> have been anyone in charge there.
In New Orleans, transportation was a large part of the problem, as well
as people refusing to evacuate. Unfortunately, New Orleans really had
only one all-weather highway for evacuation.
>
> If someone had have been, with even basic communications equipment,
> then
> this wouldn't have been a problem.
>
> All it needed was a couple of people to say what was needed, a couple of
> dozen cops to keep them safe, two or three Irridium telephones and a
> generator set to keep them charged.
I don't understand how these small number of people could have
coordinated the evacuation, under extreme conditions, of the 100,000 or
so people that had not left. I don't understand how they could have
coordinated rescue, when the rescue teams, boats, and helicopters don't
have interoperable Iridium telephones.
Fred J. McCall
news:112585869...@doris.uk.clara.net:
>
> "Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96C761841E38Ef...@207.217.125.201...
>> "Mac_Ray" <axha...@clara.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:11258407...@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net:
>>
>> >
>> > "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
>> > news:BF4057E4.1BDD0%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>> >>
>> >> In the face of this disaster, which was so profound that
>> >> thousands of square
>> >> miles of land are still under water and will be for days if
>> >> not weeks, the seeming clumsiness of the first days of the
>> >> recovery effort was inevitable.
>> >
>> > Complete and utter bollox.
>>
>> I assume that was supposed to be 'bollocks', an article of
>> anatomy that you are apparently totally unaquainted with.
>
> Quite wrong little man. It's usenet speak for you're talking
> shite.
Wrong. It's crept into a lot of folks' language based on usage in
the UK. It is spelt 'bollocks'. Does that clarify things for you,
little boy?
> Do you understand "talking shite"?
Yes, it is what you're doing here. It is also another Britishism
(which you at least managed to spell correctly, which I think
demonstrates you are much more familiar with feces than you are with
balls).
>> > The evacuation of the city was ordered
>> > by the Mayor days before the hurricane hit. The *evacuation of
>> > a city* - for God's sake! In any properly organised society
>>
>> 'Properly organized society'? This is presumably some euphemism
>> for a nice, tight dictatorship? After all, Mussolini made the
>> trains run on time, right?
>
> Properly organised society is English for properly organised
> society. Which bit of that don't you understand?
What it means, of course. Or is it just a magical noise, signifying
nothing?
>> > this
>> > should have kicked in emergency procedures, comencing with the
>> > procurement of buses and helicopters for those who did not have
>> > transport and following up with the procurement of water, food
>> > and medical supplies for those who would get caught up in it.
>>
>> So why didn't the Mayor (Cedric Richmond (D)) do all that?
>
> Why didn't *anyone* do that?
Because it is not their city? Who did the Mayor ask for aid, if this
undertaking was beyond his local resources (which it most certainly
was)?
>> > The
>> > whole thing is a total shambles and is an indictment of the
>> > whole of the USA. Sorry pal - but that's the way it is.
>>
>> How do you figure that? Have you asked yourself why Mississippi,
>> hardest hit by the storm, seems to be doing so much better with
>> it than Louisiana is?
>
> Because it didn't hit a city with 0.5 million people in it.
That's right, it didn't. In fact, it MISSED such a city. That city
was New Orleans.
What it did do was hit several cities of somewhat smaller size (and
hence commensurately smaller resources). And yet Mississippi seems
to be doing a much better job of managing the disaster than
Louisiana.
> Next....
Ask yourself why that is.
Then think about the fact that some attempts at early aid in New
Orleans were called off because people were sniping at aid workers.
>> >> Note that the only people who profess not to understand this
>> >> are the Bush administration's political opponents, bent on
>> >> scoring political points.
>> >
>> > Wrong.
>>
>> Yes, you are.
>>
>> Educate yourself, then get back to us.
>
> You haven't addressed a single point I made -
Because you have yet to make a single point.
> other than to occupy
> yourself with snide irrelevant little comments. Clearly I pricked
> some sore wee part of your patriotic heart. For which I am not
> sorry.
And you apparently have your head firmly up and locked and are
desirous to remain in your current abysmal ignorance.
More power to you - but not from here.
John Lansford
>The Governor of Lousiana needs one thing to get National Guard troops in her
>state - a cooperative/aid agreement signed with the Governor of another
>state placing troops at her disposal. Those troops then come under her
>command - NOT the Federal Government. The only paperwork is notification -
>the Feds don't need to approve it because those troops are under the command
>of that State's government.
The New Mexico governor asked Louisiana's governor on Monday if she
needed help, and she said yes she did. However, before the NG could
be sent, approval had to be given by someone in Washington. That
approval did not take place until days after the request was made.
There were other states that had their NG troops delayed to deploy for
the same reason after Louisiana called for help.
>In fact, any National Guard deployed in a State to respond to a disaster
>are, by law, under command of the State - not the Feds. In fact, the Feds
>were so disgusted by how the state was handling Guard deployments in the
>response that they requested that control be turned over to them from
>Louisiana on Friday - a request that was refused.
The Federal government hardly was doing much better. I'd certainly not
have given them authority over the NG troops in Louisiana.
>Well, it IS somebody's fault.
>
>In order they are:
>
>1a) The Director of New Orleans' Emergency Management
>1b) The Mayor of New Orleans
I agree that the city is responsible for not implementing their
evacuation plan fully. Once the storm hit, however, relief and
support has to come from somewhere else, such as the state and/or
Federal government.
If relief and support can reach Bande Aceh within hours after the
tsunami hit, why couldn't similar help have reached the Gulf Coast in
as fast a time?
>Without actually knowing what went on internally it's impossible to separate
>the two at this time.
>
>First, it is absolutely horrible that the people were sent to the two
>designated shelters in New Orleans, the Superdome and Convention Center,
>without stockpiles of food and water on hand.
I agree.
> Every local Emergency
>Management Association Emergency Plan has the statement that local
>authorities must be prepared to operate without aid for 72 to 96 hours.
>Stocking shelters with food and water to sustain the population for that
>period of time is essential - especially when the city had three days'
>warning to make that happen.
>
>IMO the local Director of Emergency Management should be fired - today. Even
>if the Mayor said, "Let's not worry about that," it's the Local Director's
>statutory responsibility to ensure that shelters are provided with the
>necessities of life. If they don't have the necessities of life then they
>shouldn't even be classified as shelters.
>
>This is a failure in the Duty of Care of local government that borders on
>criminal IMO.
>
>Second, not at least making certain that emergency facilities, including
>hospitals, had a supply of fuel to run generators for an event which
>everyone knew would knock power for an extended period of time - and further
>not providing security for emergency facilities - is another failure which
>borders on criminal.
Remember, though, the hurricane itself did relatively little damage to
NO. Power was out and there was some flooding due to pump failures,
but the widespread flooding did not take place until the levees began
to fail on Tuesday. Since Katrina was a Cat 5 right up until she made
landfall, however, NO had to expect the worst case scenario and plan
ahead for it, which they did not do.
>Third, ordering an evacuation with more than 24 hours notice and making some
>sort of provision for the poor and infirm would have made sense.
The storm was a Cat 3 hurricane Saturday morning. A serious storm but
not enough to force an evacuation. About mid morning it was upgraded
to a Cat 4 and the evacuation was ordered that day. Then it went to a
Cat 5 on Sunday and a mandatory evacuation ordered. There just wasn't
enough time available for an evacuation, unless you felt they should
have evacuated with a Cat 3 storm bearing down. Since the levees were
designed to hold back a Cat 3, though, I can understand why it wasn't
ordered.
>Now these are the areas I'm more comfortable commenting on as I have an
>Emergency Response Role in my own Community.
>
>Every Community must have an Emergency Response Plan. The duty for assuring
>that the plan is executed lies with the Director of Emergency Management.
>And the first two points I mention above are absolutely mandatory - that
>shelters be identified, the public notified, and these be supplied with the
>necessities to sustain life.
>
>There is no excuse for that much not being done - and the fault for this
>lies squarely with the City of New Orleans.
They had a plan. It just wasn't fully implemented.
>Next, outside help doesn't arrive until you ask.
Louisiana asked for help while the storm was overhead. New Orleans
began asking for help when the flooding began. In neither case was the
response immediate or large enough.
>The Governor for darn sure should have requested National Guard assistance
>to someone other than the neighboring states that were also hit by the
>disaster.
Does New Mexico qualify? The two governors had communicated while the
storm was overhead and NM agreed to help on Monday. They didn't get
the go-ahead from Washington until days later.
>It's clear the the government of the city of New Orleans, and to some extent
>the State of New Orleans, were incompetent.
>
>This administration has had almost universally high marks for disaster
>response. They received high marks in response from the governors of
>Mississippi and Alabama in this very tragedy - with troops on the ground
>engaged in SAR late Monday - before the storm had even fallen below
>hurricane strength.
The only S/R I saw being done was from the Coast Guard on Monday,
which was to be expected.
John Lansford
--
The unofficial I-26 Construction Webpage:
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/
Bryn
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>
>"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns96C76F3476B9Df...@207.217.125.201...
>> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:dff93t$rj2$1...@news.freedom2surf.net:
>
>> > Anyone who lets people die because of a silly law passed over a
>> > hundred years ago needs shooting.
>>
>> So you are a fan of military officers ignoring the law and taking off
>> on their own hook, are you?
>
>It's called initiative.
>
>It seems you're against it.
>
>> >> > I hear the Airforce base at
>> >> > Biloxi did nothing, just stood around and watched the chaos,
>> >> > it 'wasn't their job'.
>> >>
>> >> And what would you have them do? Remember, it has to be
>> >> something that is NOT a direct violation of United States law.
>> >
>> > Well saving some lives would have been a start...
>>
>> In other words, you have nothing to suggest at all.
>
>It seems that direct action by the US military in a disaster area isn't
>against the law. They still did nothing...
They had not at the time, been briefed as to who the enemy actually
were.
No scarfs !
>
--
Bryn
To email remove GREMILNS
Bryn
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>
Surely the logistics of the NO situation closely resemble those which
would exist after a nuclear strike.
A large number of people having to evacuate a city and in need of food,
water and medical assistance. The planning for this has or should have
existed for many years now.
Or did such a plan exist but only consisted of containment and looter
control.
An interesting thought...
Bryn
<grey.sat...@oscn.net> writes
>On 9/4/05 12:08 PM, in article
>hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net, "Howard C. Berkowitz"
><h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <dff38m$pgr$1...@news.freedom2surf.net>, "William Black"
>>> would be a potential candidate for president by now.
>>
>> coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
>> contact with local emergency services?
>>
>>> That none of them
>>> did
>>> sp seems to indicate that you have a real problem with initiative in the
>>> US
>>> around and watched the chaos, it 'wasn't their job'.
>>
>me. Indeed that is why, as Howard abley demonstrated in his response, they
>are unconvincing. When thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies
>have to be transported into an affected area that is largely under water,
>it's going to be slow going for awhile. It makes me sick to my stomach to
>see William and others use this tragedy as a platform to express their
>preexisting prejudice against George W. Bush.
>
Bush is almost an irrelevance in this matter. His response to anything
is totally predictable. He says what he is told to and messes up when he
does not.
People are criticizing a system which plainly failed to operate. The
rest of the world is supposed to bow its head to the wonder of the
"American Way" which we have had stuffed down our throats for the past
years.
The US cocked up big time in New Orleans and people are saying "Hold on
there! If the US messed up with this?" "What else might they have got
wrong?".
On a world-wide basis the US is trying to drag the West into a
confrontation which nobody on the outside wants or needs. The US is
selecting "enemies" for us because it can. It can force any situation or
outcome that it wishes and is doing so, the rest have to trail along.
Supposedly the "system" that the US is trying to impose on Iraq is the
same one failed to function in New Orleans.
Scary ain't it?
By the way, nice start to the New American Century !
You've pissed off your black population big time and made yourselves
like a corral of lame ducks.
I hope Condi Rice found a nice pair of shoes.
Hilarious
sci.military.naval removed from headers as requested by Jack Lycanthrope
Howard C. Berkowitz
<cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dffagh$s1e$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
> >
> > "Howard C. Berkowitz" <h...@gettcomm.com> wrote in message
> > news:hcb-C809CA.1...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> >
> > > > Any general who set off for New Orleans with his men on Tuesday
> morning
> > > > would be a potential candidate for president by now.
> > >
> > > What, specifically, would you have them do? With whom would they
> > > coordinate if they were out of state and had no routine points of
> > > contact with local emergency services?
> >
> > I would have thought that the units requested by the Louisiana
> > Governor,
> who
> > were held up because of paperwork cock-ups, would have deployed at
> > once,
> > and to hell with the paperwork.
>
> I have a fairly strong aversion to discussing current events on this ng -
> I
> have real people I have lunch with to talk about that with but they
> aren't
> much on history.
>
> But there's been such a woeful ignorance displayed by people on how the
> Emergency Response System is designed to work that I'm feeling compelled.
Good response. I generally try to trim SHM from the Hines crossposts,
and I will continue to do so as a courtesy. In other posts, however, I
have discussed aspects of emergency response, more in the context of the
various levels of the tactical and operational Incident Command System.
You are quite correct about mutual aid. I'm not blaming this all on the
Federal government, although it certainly would need to get involved at
some point. Examples of those points include bringing in national
resources and troops, and, for distant state National Guard deployment,
being sure the necessary airlift is available. Airlift, as I suspect
you know, can get very complicated at the receiving end, since ground
staging and transport has to match the airlift.
Unfortunately, it won't be possible to tell fully for some time. I
should have the link at hand, but the Arlington County, Virginia, fire
department did an extensive postmortem of Pentagon operations on 9/11.
In general, the response went extremely well, but some things needed
improvement; those problems were explicitly identified in the report,
and they are being corrected. For example, there needed to be a surge
capability for the 911 telephone system, coordinating staff there that
reported to the ICS-Joint Command Post, and probably (not all
communities need this) a prestaged area for the JCP. Not all mutual aid
entered the ICS smoothly.
>
> First, it is absolutely horrible that the people were sent to the two
> designated shelters in New Orleans, the Superdome and Convention Center,
> without stockpiles of food and water on hand. Every local Emergency
> Management Association Emergency Plan has the statement that local
> authorities must be prepared to operate without aid for 72 to 96 hours.
> Stocking shelters with food and water to sustain the population for that
> period of time is essential - especially when the city had three days'
> warning to make that happen.
Agreed.
>
> IMO the local Director of Emergency Management should be fired - today.
> Even
> if the Mayor said, "Let's not worry about that," it's the Local
> Director's
> statutory responsibility to ensure that shelters are provided with the
> necessities of life. If they don't have the necessities of life then they
> shouldn't even be classified as shelters.
>
> This is a failure in the Duty of Care of local government that borders on
> criminal IMO.
>
> Second, not at least making certain that emergency facilities, including
> hospitals, had a supply of fuel to run generators for an event which
> everyone knew would knock power for an extended period of time - and
> further
> not providing security for emergency facilities - is another failure
> which
> borders on criminal.
The problem was a little more complex than that, in some of the
hospitals of which I'm aware. At Charity Hospital, the problem wasn't
fuel -- it was that the generators were on the second floor and were
flooded out. Putting generators on the roof both gets into complexities
with NFPA fire protection standards, and also interferes with use of the
roof for helicopters.
I'm familiar with some new-construction hospitals that have at least
some utility-only floors, with the most extensive being between every
pair of patient and some research/common service units. This is probably
the long-term approach that makes the most sense, placing generators and
fuel in a vertical stack that doesn't complicate fire response.
Also, at Charity and Tulane, the first break-ins to the parking garage
to steal stereos apparently either wasn't reported or wasn't taken
seriously, but it appears that these criminals next escalated to
carjacking ambulances, and then to firing on convoys.
>
> Third, ordering an evacuation with more than 24 hours notice and making
> some
> sort of provision for the poor and infirm would have made sense.
>
> Now these are the areas I'm more comfortable commenting on as I have an
> Emergency Response Role in my own Community.
>
Again agreed. One question is what preparations to receive the refugees
existed--it's hard to prestage them when the weather track isn't known.
It may be that a lesson is that there need to be prepositioned, or
available for airlift, refugee centers to be set up by National Guard or
Federal troops.
>
Grey Satterfield
<cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
In light of the ignorant complaints about the response of the federal
government to the Gulf coast disaster that have been posted here by William
Black and others, Curt Emanuel's careful and comprehensive explanation of
just how the Emergency Response System works is welcome. He has pointed
out, correctly, that the bulk of the blame for the delays in New Orleans
must be laid directly at the feet of the Mayor and the Emergency Management
director. I know better than to think this useful information will shut up
the complaints by the Bush haters about the relief efforts but it will be
useful to the rest of us in deciding whether those complaints are legitimate
or are born of emotion.
Grey Satterfield
[Curt's explanation of the Emergency Response System begins:]
Fred J. McCall
news:MuCdnS2Xb7l...@comcast.com:
> The total response to Katrina was a complete screwup at all
> levels. Bush has "overall" responsiblity for the command screw ups
> at DHS, which are well documented. However the fundamental
> responsibility is at the state level.
And the lower down you go the more screwed up it seems to have been.
Note that the Federal Government declared the affected zone a
disaster area EARLY (before the storm hit) and started moving things
in preparation.
> New Orleans was a flood risk. any "disaster plan" that depends on
> " thousands of relief workers and tons of supplies have to be
> transported into an affected area that is largely under water"
>
> Is a recipe for disaster.
Yep, and it's worse than that. They KNEW what the outcome of an
evacuation order was going to be from an earlier evacuation some
years ago (50% leave, 25% can't get out without transport being
provided, and 25% simply refuse to go).
RTO Trainer
<h...@gettcomm.com> wrote:
Yes. You won't find any but the most obtuse suburbanite who doesn't
have a kit in the car(s), food and water in the house and knows the
difference between watch and warning. It's rare to find an adult in
Oklahoma who doesn't know what county he lives in and the names of at
least the immediately contiguous counties.
When buying a house in OK, one of the first considerations is a small
interior room (especailly a bathroom) that can be used to shelter in.
It's looking like, just like I have always kept a radio in my
bathroom, the average NOLA resident should have had a hatchet in thier
attic.
>From personal experience, it's hard to avoid earthquake information in
>San Francisco. Indeed, for many years, I was required, when doing
>classes for Cisco, to recite a set of earthquake instructions at the
>start of the class -- no matter where in the world I was giving the
>seminar.
>
Similarly, in Oklahoma and Kansas, tornado drills are standard
features of the school and work environments. Oklahoma tests their
warning sirens every clear Sunday at noon in the Spring months, not
just for Preventive Maintenance, but so the population knows what they
sound like.
>
>> People are instructed to take cover in interior areas or go to shelters,
>> if
>> available. In the early stages, what happens is what happens. The
>> relief
>> efforts can come only later.
>>
>> Tornado relief is exponentially easier than the nightmare relief workers
>> are
>> dealing with on the Gulf coast where thousands of square miles are under
>> water. This is why I think most of the complaints over the delay and
>> confusion during the early days of relief efforts -- which will be going
>> on
>> for months if not years -- are either naïve or politically motivated.
>>
>> Grey Satterfield
>>
Howard C. Berkowitz
<jlns...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> "Curt Emanuel" <cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
>
> >The Governor of Lousiana needs one thing to get National Guard troops in
> >her
> >state - a cooperative/aid agreement signed with the Governor of another
> >state placing troops at her disposal. Those troops then come under her
> >command - NOT the Federal Government. The only paperwork is notification
> >-
> >the Feds don't need to approve it because those troops are under the
> >command
> >of that State's government.
>
> The New Mexico governor asked Louisiana's governor on Monday if she
> needed help, and she said yes she did. However, before the NG could
> be sent, approval had to be given by someone in Washington. That
> approval did not take place until days after the request was made.
> There were other states that had their NG troops delayed to deploy for
> the same reason after Louisiana called for help.
One of the first questions that occurs to me if these states had enough
Air National Guard airlift to bring in the units, or whether they were
dependent on other state units that might not be in mutual aid, or on
Federal airlift.
Vince
>
> Well, it IS somebody's fault.
>
> In order they are:
>
> 1a) The Director of New Orleans' Emergency Management
> 1b) The Mayor of New Orleans
>
> Without actually knowing what went on internally it's impossible to separate
> the two at this time.
>
I believe you are incorrect on this issue
> First, it is absolutely horrible that the people were sent to the two
> designated shelters in New Orleans, the Superdome and Convention Center,
> without stockpiles of food and water on hand. Every local Emergency
> Management Association Emergency Plan has the statement that local
> authorities must be prepared to operate without aid for 72 to 96 hours.
> Stocking shelters with food and water to sustain the population for that
> period of time is essential - especially when the city had three days'
> warning to make that happen.
By law in Louisiana it is a State responsibility
the almost indescribably comic State plan can be found at
LOUISIANA HOMELAND SECURITY
http://www.loep.state.la.us/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
B. Last Resort Refuge
The definition of Last Resort Refuge is a place for persons to be
protected from the high winds and heavy rains from the storm. Unlike a
shelter, there may be little or no water or food and possibly no
utilities. A Last Resort Refuge is
intended to provide best available survival protection for the duration
of the hurricane only.
1. Once evacuation routes are closed, people who were unable to evacuate
the risk area will be directed to last resort refuge and /or staging areas.
2. When it is determined that weather conditions permit, rescue teams
will be sent into areas designated for Last Resort Refuge to transport
evacuees to designated shelters.
Thats it
no planning whatever for what do do with the people or what to do if
rescue teams cannot help
they knew what the problem was
PART II: SITUATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS
A. SITUATIONS
1. The Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area represents a difficult
evacuation problem due to the large population and it’s unique layout.
2. This area is located in a floodplain much of which lies below sea
level and is surrounded by an extensive marine estuarine system of lakes,
canals, bayous, the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississippi River. Some
parish storm drainage systems discharge into area waterways. High
water levels would impede adequate pumping and prevent relief against
flooding from heavy rainfall.
3. Tidal surge, associated with the "worst case" Category 3, 4 or 5
Hurricane Scenario for the Greater New Orleans Metropolitan Area, as
determined by the National Weather Service (NWS) Sea, Lake and
Overland Surge from Hurricanes (SLOSH) Model, could cause a
maximum inundation of 20 feet above sea level in some of the parishes
in the Region, not including tidal effects, wind waves and storm rainfall.
4. The Area is protected by an extensive levee system, but above-normal
water levels and hurricane surge could cause levee overtopping or
failures.
5. It will take a long time to evacuate large numbers of people from the
Region.
6. The road systems used for evacuations are limited, and many of the
roadways are near bodies of water and susceptible to flooding.
7. The combined population of the Region is approximately 1,694,805
(1990 Census, as amended July 1, 1999), of whom the majority are at
risk from a hurricane (Annex C).
8. Many of the Region's emergency shelter facilities may be inundated by
floodwaters when threatened by a slow moving Category 3 or above
hurricane. Sheltering of evacuees outside of the Region becomes
necessary.
9. In most emergencies the number of persons needing public shelter will
be limited. In the event of a catastrophic hurricane, however, the
evacuation of over a million people from the Southeast Region could
overwhelm normally available shelter resources.
its a state, not a city plan
Vince
Vince
> On 9/4/05 1:39 PM, in article dfff1...@news3.newsguy.com, "Curt Emanuel"
> <cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
>
> In light of the ignorant complaints about the response of the federal
> government to the Gulf coast disaster that have been posted here by William
> Black and others, Curt Emanuel's careful and comprehensive explanation of
> just how the Emergency Response System works is welcome. He has pointed
> out, correctly, that the bulk of the blame for the delays in New Orleans
> must be laid directly at the feet of the Mayor and the Emergency Management
> director. I know better than to think this useful information will shut up
> the complaints by the Bush haters about the relief efforts but it will be
> useful to the rest of us in deciding whether those complaints are legitimate
> or are born of emotion.
>
except that he is wrong on the law
It's a state not a city responsibility
http://www.loep.state.la.us/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
Vince
>
Grey Satterfield
"RTO Trainer" <bill....@us.army.mil> wrote:
This is correct. I failed to say in my earlier posts that I have a battery
powered radio, which always contains fresh batteries and several flashlights
located in various parts of my house. I keep a replacement supply of
batteries on hand for both.
Grey Satterfield
Vince
Bogus state plan can be found at
http://www.loep.state.la.us/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf
here is the section I find most incredible
5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles.
School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles
provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation
for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in
evacuating.
That is the total planning for hundreds of thousands of people
how about this
As a hurricane approaches land, high winds and rising water will affect
evacuation routes, making travel hazardous. Evacuation orders will
take this into account and provide for evacuation routes to be closed at
the point at which travel would become hazardous.
As evacuation routes are closed, people who are still in the risk area
will be directed to last resort refuge within the area.
But As I psoted lesewher such shelters have no food or water
What the hell kind of "plan" is this?
Vince
Fred J. McCall
news:Q$0KqCDEs...@finhall.demon.co.uk:
> Bush is almost an irrelevance in this matter. His response to
> anything is totally predictable. He says what he is told to and
> messes up when he does not.
Ah, another Bush-hater heard from. You do realize that the
credibility of anything you might have to say goes right down the
drain when you start off with this kind of hate-screed, don't you?
> People are criticizing a system which plainly failed to operate.
> The rest of the world is supposed to bow its head to the wonder of
> the "American Way" which we have had stuffed down our throats for
> the past years.
>
> The US cocked up big time in New Orleans and people are saying
> "Hold on there! If the US messed up with this?" "What else might
> they have got wrong?".
Only the ignorant ones are saying that. You see, most of the 'cocked
up' stuff in New Orleans is the result of LOCAL action. Now, take
into account that Louisiana is the only US State with a French
heritage and also appears to be the only US State that has managed
such a monumental cock up in this disaster and then draw whatever
conclusions you like.
> On a world-wide basis the US is trying to drag the West into a
> confrontation which nobody on the outside wants or needs. The US
> is selecting "enemies" for us because it can. It can force any
> situation or outcome that it wishes and is doing so, the rest have
> to trail along.
>
> Supposedly the "system" that the US is trying to impose on Iraq is
> the same one failed to function in New Orleans.
Nope. We're not letting the French play, you see.
> Scary ain't it?
Not particularly, no.
> By the way, nice start to the New American Century !
>
> You've pissed off your black population big time and made
> yourselves like a corral of lame ducks.
Well, that's what the Left keeps hoping for, anyway. Pity for them
their bile is so transparent.
RTO Trainer
<jlns...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>"Curt Emanuel" <cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
>
>>The Governor of Lousiana needs one thing to get National Guard troops in her
>>state - a cooperative/aid agreement signed with the Governor of another
>>state placing troops at her disposal. Those troops then come under her
>>command - NOT the Federal Government. The only paperwork is notification -
>>the Feds don't need to approve it because those troops are under the command
>>of that State's government.
>
>The New Mexico governor asked Louisiana's governor on Monday if she
>needed help, and she said yes she did. However, before the NG could
>be sent, approval had to be given by someone in Washington. That
>approval did not take place until days after the request was made.
>There were other states that had their NG troops delayed to deploy for
>the same reason after Louisiana called for help.
This is not true.
The initial story, NM to LA may be, if there is no EMAC agreement
between those states. However, thre are EMAC agreements between LA
and its adjoining states. LA Governor did not initiate EMAC until
Wednesday. Prior to that kind of request, the National Guard of any
state is prohibited by law, from crossing the state lines.
RTO Trainer
Oklahoma is driving in, but one of the requirements from us was a
fleet of 5-ton trucks and drivers. I expect us to be there tomorrow.
Fred J. McCall
news:1chmh1pknnuin7g59...@4ax.com:
> "Curt Emanuel" <cema...@familyonline.com> wrote:
>
>>The Governor of Lousiana needs one thing to get National Guard
>>troops in her state - a cooperative/aid agreement signed with the
>>Governor of another state placing troops at her disposal. Those
>>troops then come under her command - NOT the Federal Government.
>>The only paperwork is notification - the Feds don't need to
>>approve it because those troops are under the command of that
>>State's government.
>
> The New Mexico governor asked Louisiana's governor on Monday if
> she needed help, and she said yes she did. However, before the NG
> could be sent, approval had to be given by someone in Washington.
> That approval did not take place until days after the request was
> made. There were other states that had their NG troops delayed to
> deploy for the same reason after Louisiana called for help.
I'd be interested in a credible source for this claim, since non-
Federalized National Guard troops are under the control of the
various State Governors and they don't need Federal permiassion to do
anything with them they want to.
>>Well, it IS somebody's fault.
>>
>>In order they are:
>>
>>1a) The Director of New Orleans' Emergency Management
>>1b) The Mayor of New Orleans
>
> I agree that the city is responsible for not implementing their
> evacuation plan fully. Once the storm hit, however, relief and
> support has to come from somewhere else, such as the state and/or
> Federal government.
>
> If relief and support can reach Bande Aceh within hours after the
> tsunami hit, why couldn't similar help have reached the Gulf Coast
> in as fast a time?
Because you can't use the US military in the United States until the
State requests it.
>>The Governor for darn sure should have requested National Guard
>>assistance to someone other than the neighboring states that were
>>also hit by the disaster.
>
> Does New Mexico qualify? The two governors had communicated while
> the storm was overhead and NM agreed to help on Monday. They
> didn't get the go-ahead from Washington until days later.
And they don't need the go-ahead from Washington unless they plan on
using National Guard troops that have already been Federalized.
Fred J. McCall
news:1125860428.6...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> On Wednesday reporters listening to horrific stories of death and
> survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north
> across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing
> basketball and performing calisthenics.
So a base right in the middle of the impacted area somehow magically
was untouched? That's certainly the way this reads.
No doubt you could find people playing basketball elsewhere, if it
was possible to do so on a base right in the middle of the devastated
area.
> Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!
>
> When asked why these young men were not being used to help in the
> recovery effort, our reporters were told that it would be
> pointless to send military personnel down to the beach to pick up
> debris.
Which is somewhat at odds with reports that it took people with
chainsaws working long hours to even gain access to the base.
Frankly, I have to chalk reports like this up to 80% bullshit.
Otherwise, someone is going to have to explain to me just what
arrangement the US military has with God that causes hurricanes to
skip military bases.