Re: Who Is The Greatest Scottish Person In History?
D. Spencer Hines
The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
2. Too much time on their hands.
3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"allan connochie" <al...@EASYNET.CO.UK> wrote in message
news:4387...@news.greennet.net...
> I think if we take the film at face value it was a good adventure yarn.
> Vert
> tartan Brigadoon of course in making Wallace a Highlander but I suppose
> many
> film audiences don't expect to see the Scots looking just like their
> English
> counterparts:-) I do get confused over some of the criticism though.
> Many
> complain about the blue paint though Braveheart is largley based on the
> Blind Harry epic poem and in that Wallace does have a Saltire painted on
> his
> face. Likewise the liason with the princess is much criticised when the
> poem
> again has the affair though in the poem it's with Edward's wife rather
> than
> the daughter-in-law. Randall Wallace never claimed that his book was
> historical truth. He stated that he originally based some of Wallace's
> story
> on the life of Jesus (obviously a very violent Jesus) but totally revamped
> it after discovering the Hamilton translation of Harry's original. No-one
> moans about the flagrant historical inaccuracies in Macbeth.
>
> Allan
William Black
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IiNhf.439$eP....@eagle.america.net...
> Bingo!
>
> The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
> lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
>
> 1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
>
> 2. Too much time on their hands.
>
> 3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
I think a lot of it is because:
1. It was touted as being accurate
2. It's a crap movie, although the portrayal of Edward Longshanks was
good. As fine a dissection of the problems of medieval kingship as I've
ever seen on film.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Peter Skelton
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:IiNhf.439$eP....@eagle.america.net...
>> Bingo!
>>
>> The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
>> lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
>>
>> 1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
>>
>> 2. Too much time on their hands.
>>
>> 3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
>
>I think a lot of it is because:
>
>1. It was touted as being accurate
>
>2. It's a crap movie, although the portrayal of Edward Longshanks was
>good. As fine a dissection of the problems of medieval kingship as I've
>ever seen on film.
I like The Lion in WInter better.
Peter Skelton
TOliver
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dm88fa$blc$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:IiNhf.439$eP....@eagle.america.net...
>> Bingo!
>>
>> The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
>> lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
>>
>> 1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
>>
>> 2. Too much time on their hands.
>>
>> 3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
>
> I think a lot of it is because:
>
> 1. It was touted as being accurate
In the finest traditions of Hollywood, J. Arthur Rank of the Big Fong, and
the history of the industry, anyone who bought a ticket expecting accuracy
was bound to be disappointed (except those for whom Hollywood is accuracy).
>
> 2. It's a crap movie, although the portrayal of Edward Longshanks was
> good.
Alone worth the price of a ticket, a different perspective of medieval
kingship from that of _Lion in Winter_.
As fine a dissection of the problems of medieval kingship as I've
> ever seen on film.
>
Close, and probably since one tends to give greater credence to movies seen
in one's youth, living up to your claim.
Portraying Wallace - even by comparisons of the day - as some sort of rural
bumpkin rising up from the muck and hay stacks to challenge the Sassenachs
seemed a stretch. But then the movie does an adequate job in portraying
the living conditions of royalty and "nobility", perhaps conveying some
feeling of just how soon removed were the times from what had been little
more than an upgraded tribal society - not just among the Scots, but
certainly from an attitudinal standpoint among the Anglo/Scots Norman
"aristocracy" of the two "kingdoms".
Hell, given the baseline for comparison, a low hurdle at best, it may not
have been that bad and more "educational" than most for the average
moviegoer, little familiaiar with any history.
No tale serves better for remakes than _Kidnapped_, a feast for young and
old (if playing a bit loose with history as Stevenson was want to do.
TMO.
TMO
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Adam Whyte-Settlar
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Piss off, Hines !
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Bryn
<skel...@cogeco.ca> writes
They managed to look cold, muddy and miserable throughout.
--
Bryn
"Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh
"but make sure you know which side to come down on!"
To email remove GREMILNS
hippo
"William Black" wrote in message
> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>> The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
>> lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
>>
>> 1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
>>
>> 2. Too much time on their hands.
>>
>> 3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
>
> I think a lot of it is because:
>
> 1. It was touted as being accurate
>
> 2. It's a crap movie,
I agree completely and it has nothing to do with criticism of Mel. Gibson.
The woad, corporate mooning, battle scenes, 'Irish' connection, cheap
'Hollywood' nationalist slogans, unhistorical pretensions of humble status,
and 'love' sub-plot made me groan in my seat (and why the kids usually
regret dragging me to movies).
I disagree about Longshanks. There isn't an actor alive who could do him
justice. In the presence of the real man most modern men would probably crap
in their trousers. Modern culture can't even imagine men like him let alone
re-create them on film.
The 'weakness' of Medieval kingship implies there was a realistic
alternative which there wasn't. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
it.
Grey Satterfield
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:IiNhf.439$eP....@eagle.america.net...
>> Bingo!
>>
>> The silly-buggers criticism of _Braveheart_ by many academics and other
>> lesser breeds without the Law is simply because of:
>>
>> 1. Jealousy of Mel Gibson for his commercial and Academy Award success.
>>
>> 2. Too much time on their hands.
>>
>> 3. A Congenital Propensity to Debunk things they cannot understand.
>
> I think a lot of it is because:
>
> 1. It was touted as being accurate
>
> 2. It's a crap movie, although the portrayal of Edward Longshanks was
> good. As fine a dissection of the problems of medieval kingship as I've
> ever seen on film.
"Braveheart" "a crap movie"? That assertion is itself, "crap." With more
than 100,000 votes having been cast, Internet Movie Database voters have
voted "Braveheart" No. 92 on the IMDb list of the 250 greatest movies ever
made. The film won both best picture and best director in 1996.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112573/combined?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49
MHxrdz0xfHE9YnJhdmVoZWFhcnR8ZnQ9MXxteD0yMHxsbT01MDB8Y289MXxodG1sPTF8bm09MQ__
;fc=1;ft=16;fm=1
If William meant by "crap movie" that "Braveheart" was in some ways
historically inaccurate, I say, "OF COURSE it was." Every movie that clams
"to be based on a true story" compresses events and injects fictional
elements to heighten the drama. In short, "Braveheart" is a movie and not a
literal recounting of history. In any movie that is claimed "based on a
true story," historical accuracy is always going to give way to the needs of
the drama because moviemakers are storytellers not historians.
Grey Satterfield
William Black
> Nonsense!
>
> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
So which part of Mel Gibson's work do you think will still be viewed as art
in four hundred years from now?
Josiah Jenkins
Grey Satterfield
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Nonsense!
>
> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>
> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
> it.
That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the prism
of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
therefore, demonstrates a naïve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
Grey Satterfield
William Black
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:BFAE0077.1FCA6%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
> "Braveheart" "a crap movie"? That assertion is itself, "crap." With more
> than 100,000 votes having been cast, Internet Movie Database voters have
> voted "Braveheart" No. 92 on the IMDb list of the 250 greatest movies ever
> made. The film won both best picture and best director in 1996.
The IMDb list!
Oh great a list of movies that men with computers who live in the USA think
are good...
I believe The Godfather is usually top, followed by The Shawshank
Redemption.
Ho ho ho...
Braveheart is badly written and cast, the battles are chaotic and horrible
and the settings are crude.
Gibson plays 'Mel Gibson', as always, everyone else looks as if they're
waiting for it to be over and the cheque to arrive.
The single honourable exception is Patrick McGoohan who is obviously relying
on his theatrical training to get through the whole ghastly pudding.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memorable Quotes from
Braveheart (1995)
Argyle Wallace: They are saying goodbye in their own way. Playing outlawed
tunes on outlawed pipes.
Robert's Father: At last, you know what it means to hate. Now you're ready
to be a king.
Robert the Bruce: My hate will die with you.
Princess Isabelle: The king desires peace.
William Wallace: Longshanks desires peace?
Princess Isabelle: He declares it to me, I swear it. He proposes that you
withdraw your attack. In return he grants you title, estates, and this chest
of gold which I am to pay to you personally.
William Wallace: A lordship and titles. Gold. That I should become Judas?
Princess Isabelle: Peace is made in such ways.
William Wallace: Slaves are made in such ways. The last time Longshanks
spoke of peace I was a boy. And many Scottish nobles, who would not be
slaves, were lured by him under a flag of truce to a barn, where he had them
hanged. I was very young, but I remember Longshanks' notion of peace.
Robert the Bruce: Lands, titles, men, power... nothing.
Robert's Father: Nothing?
Robert the Bruce: I have nothing. Men fight for me because if they do not, I
throw them off my land and I starve their wives and children. Those men who
bled the ground red at Falkirk fought for William Wallace. He fights for
something that I never had. And I took it from him, when I betrayed him. I
saw it in his face on the battlefield and it's tearing me apart.
Robert's Father: All men betray. All lose heart.
Robert the Bruce: I don't want to lose heart. I want to believe as he does.
William Wallace: It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom.
William Wallace: There's a difference between us. You think the people of
this land exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists
to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that they have
it.
Longshanks: Not the archers. My scouts tell me their archers are miles away
and no threat to us. Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. Their dead cost
nothing.
Stephen: The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn the
finest people.
William Wallace: Lower your flags and march straight back to England,
stopping at every home to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft,
rape, and murder. Do this and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one
of you will die today.
Robert the Bruce: You have bled with Wallace, now bleed with me.
Princess Isabelle: I understand you have suffered. I know... about your
woman.
William Wallace: [pauses, then sighs sadly] She was my wife. We married in
secret because I would not share her with an English lord. They killed her
to get to me. I've never spoken of it, I don't know why I tell you now,
except... I see her strength in you. One day, you will be a queen. And you
must open your eyes.
[regains composure, speaks firmly]
William Wallace: You tell your king that William Wallace will NOT be
ruled... and nor will any Scot while I live.
Princess Isabelle: The king will be dead in a month and his son is a
weakling. Who do you think is going to rule this kingdom?
William Wallace: I came home to raise crops, and God willing, a family. If I
can live in peace, I will.
William Wallace: It's fine Scottish weather we're having. The rain is
falling straight down and kind of to the side like.
William Wallace: Why do you help me?
Princess Isabelle: Because of the way you are looking at me now.
William Wallace: And if this is your army, why does it go?
Soldier: We didn't come here to fight for them.
Second Soldier: Home, the English are too many!
William Wallace: Sons of Scotland! I am William Wallace.
Second Soldier: William Wallace is seven feet tall!
William Wallace: Yes, I've heard. Kills men by the hundreds. And if HE were
here, he'd consume the English with fireballs from his eyes, and bolts of
lightning from his arse.
[Scottish army laughs]
William Wallace: I AM William Wallace! And I see a whole army of my country
men, here, in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free men, and
free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight?
Soldier: Against that? No, we'll run, and we'll live.
William Wallace: Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live... at
least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be
willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just
one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take away
our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
[Crowd cheers]
Longshanks: [to Prince Edward] One day you will be a king. At least try to
act like one.
Longshanks: Who is this person that speaks to me as though I needed his
advice?
William Wallace: Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that
field, present himself before this army, put his head between his legs, and
kiss his own arse.
[last lines]
William Wallace: [narrating] In the Year of our Lord 1314, patriots of
Scotland - starving and outnumbered - charged the fields of Bannockburn.
They fought like warrior poets; they fought like Scotsmen, and won their
freedom.
William Wallace: I love you. Always have. I want to marry you.
Stephen: [Speaking heavenward] Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm
prettier than this man. All right Father, I'll ask him.
Stephen: [to William] If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to kill
Englishmen?
Hamish: Is your father a ghost, or do you converse with the Almighty?
Stephen: In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God.
Stephen: [Heavenward] Yes, Father.
Stephen: [to William and the others] The Almighty says don't change the
subject; just answer the fucking question.
Hamish: Mind your tongue.
Campbell: Insane Irish.
Stephen: [Draws a dagger and holds it to Campbell's throat] Smart enough to
get a dagger past your guards, old man.
William Wallace: [Holding a spear at Stephen's chest] That's my friend,
Irishman. And the answer to your question is yes - if you fight for me, you
get to kill the English.
Stephen: Excellent!
Stephen: In order to converse with an equal, an Irishman is forced to talk
to God.
Malcolm Wallace: Your heart is free. Have the courage to follow it.
Longshanks: Whom do I send? Not my gentle son. The mere sight of him would
only encourage an enemy to take over the whole country.
Nicolette: Englishmen don't know what a tongue is for.
[after killing a would-be assassin]
Stephen: I didn't like him anyway. He wasn't right in the head.
Campbell: [after his wound is cauterized] That'll wake you up in the
mornin'.
Hamish: William, wake up. Someone's coming!
Campbell: [goes down to see a body of armed men approaching] MacGregors from
the next clan over.
MacGregor: We heard about what was happenin' and didn't want you "Amadans"
to have all the fun.
William Wallace: Some of us are in this; the rest of you, go home.
MacGregor: Go home to what? Our houses and farms burned when the English
garrison comes down from the castle? And you know they will!
[Wallace motions for the MacGregors to join them]
Robert the Bruce: I'm not a coward. I want what you want, but we need the
nobles.
William Wallace: We need them?
Robert the Bruce: Aye
William Wallace: Nobles. Now tell me, what does that mean to be noble? Your
title gives you claim to the throne of our country, but men don't follow
titles, they follow courage. Now our people know you. Noble, and common,
they respect you. And if you would just lead them to freedom, they'd follow
you. And so would I
Hamish: Some men are longer than others.
Campbell: Your mother's been telling stories about me again, ah?
English Commander: I hope you washed your ass this morning, it's about to be
kissed by a king.
William Wallace: ...chaque jour j'ai pensé à toi.
Malcolm Wallace: It's our wits that make us men.
William Wallace: The answer is yes. Fight for me, you get to kill the
English.
Stephen: Excellent.
William Wallace: Go back to England and tell them there that Scotland's
daughters and sons are yours no more. Tell them Scotland is free.
[to Longshanks]
Princess Isabelle: You see? Death comes to us all. But before it comes to
you, know this: your blood dies with you. A child who is not of your line
grows in my belly. Your son will not sit long on the throne. I swear it.
Longshanks: The trouble with Scotland is that it's full of Scots.
Stephen: [to William Wallace] The Almighty tells me he can get me out of
this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fucked.
William Wallace: Every man dies, not every man really lives.
[Lord Bottoms has previously taken Morrison's wife as his own]
Morrison: Do you remember me?
Lord Bottoms: I never did her any harm. It was my right.
Morrison: Your right? Well, I'm here to claim the right of a husband.
[Kills Lord Bottoms]
Campbell: I'm dying. Let me be.
Hamish: No. You're going to live.
Campbell: I've lived long enough to live free. And proud to see you become
the man that you are. I'm a happy man.
Lord Bottoms: As lord of these lands I shall bless this marriage by taking
the bride into my bed on the first night of her union.
Morrison: By God, you will not.
William Wallace: We all end up dead, the question is how and why.
Stephen: Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island. Except
I'm not on my island, of course. More's the pity.
Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.
Stephen: Yeah. It's MINE.
Hamish: You're a madman.
Stephen: [Laughs] I've come to the right place then.
Argyle Wallace: We'll stay here tonight, leave in the mornin'.
Young William: But I don't want to leave.
Argyle Wallace: You did not want your father to die either, but it happened.
Argyle Wallace: Did the priest give a poetic benediction? "The Lord bless
thee and keep thee..."
Young William: It was in Latin.
Argyle Wallace: You don't speak Latin? Eh, then that is something we shall
have to remedy.
Longshanks: Archers.
English Commander: Beg your pardon sire, but won't we hit our own troops ?
Longshanks: Yes... but we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves... attack
.
Royal Magistrate: The prisoner wishes to say a word.
William Wallace: FREEEEE-DOMMMMMM.
[first lines]
Narrator: I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will
say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged heroes. The
king of Scotland had died without a son, and the king of England, a cruel
pagan known as Edward the Longshanks, claimed the throne of Scotland for
himself. Scotland's nobles fought him, and fought each other, over the
crown. So Longshanks invited them to talks of truce - no weapons, one page
only. Among the farmers of that shire was Malcolm Wallace, a commoner with
his own lands; he had two sons, John and William.
Malcolm Wallace: I told ye to stay.
Young William: Well, I finished my work. Where're we goin'?
Malcolm Wallace: McAndrews'. He was supposed to visit when the gatherin' was
over.
Young William: Can I come?
Malcolm Wallace: No! Go home, boy.
Young William: But I want to go.
Malcolm Wallace: Go home, William, or you'll feel the back o' my hand.
Hamish: What in the hell are the Irish doing fighting with the English?
Stephen: I wouldn't worry about them. Like I said, it's my island.
William Wallace: Your island?
Stephen: MY ISLAND. Yup.
Stephen: Just when we thought all hope was lost, our noble saviors have
arrived.
Hamish: Where are you going?
William Wallace: I'm going to pick a fight.
Hamish: Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.
Princess Isabelle: I've come to beg for the life of William Wallace.
Prince Edward: [scoffs] You're quite taken with him, aren't you?
Robert the Bruce: Now, I know you've sacrificed much. But fighting these
odds looks like rage, not courage.
William Wallace: It's well beyond rage. Help me. For Christ's sake, help
yourselves. If we join, we can win. If we win, well then we'll have what
none of us has ever had before: a country of our own.
Robert's Father: Longshanks acquired Wallace. So did our nobles. That was
the price of your crown.
Robert the Bruce: DIE. I want you to die.
Longshanks: Bring me Wallace. Alive if possible, dead... just as good.
Robert's Father: I'm the one that's rotting, but your face looks graver than
mine.
[Murron is tied to a post about to be executed]
Magistrate: All of you know full well, the great pains I have always taken
never to be too strict, too rigid with the application of our laws, and as a
consequence, have we not learned to live together in relative peace and
harmony, huh? And this day's lawlessness is how you repay my leniency. Well
you leave me with little choice. An assault on the king's soldiers is the
same as an assault on the king himself.
[he slits Murron's throat]
Magistrate: [about Wallace] Now, let this scrapper come to me.
William Wallace: Ego sum hominus indomitus.
King's Advisor: [to Princess] Sanguinarious homo indomitus est, et se me
dite cum mendagio.
[He is a murderous savage, and he is telling lies]
William Wallace: Ego nunco pronunciari mendagio! Sed ego sum homo indomitus.
[I never lie! But I am a savage]
William Wallace: [to Princess] Ou en français, si vous préférez?
[Or in French, if you prefer?]
Longshanks: Scottish rebels have routed one of my garrisons and murdered the
noble lord.
Prince Edward: I heard. This Wallace is a brigand, nothing more.
Longshanks: And how would you deal with this 'brigand?'
Prince Edward: Like any common thief. Have the local magistrate arrest him
and punish him accordingly.
Longshanks: [strikes the Prince] Wallace has already killed the magistrate,
and taken control of the town!
Longshanks: What news of the North?
Prince Edward: Nothing new, your majesty. We've sent riders to speed any
word.
Longshanks: I heard word in France where I was fighting to expand your
future kingdom. The word, my son, is that our entire Northern Army is
ANIHILATED.
[William Wallace is dreaming, and sees the spirit of his wife]
William Wallace: I'm dreaming.
Murron: Yes, you are. And you must wake, William.
[pause]
William Wallace: I don't want to wake. I want to stay here with you.
Hamish: [before Wallace leaves to go to Edinburgh, where he is captured
after being betrayed] Ach nobles! nest o' schemin' bastards; they canny
agree oan the colour o' shite.
Princess Isabelle: I understand you have recently been given the rank of
knight.
William Wallace: I have been given nothing. God makes men what they are.
William Wallace: [after Hamish drops a boulder at Wallace's feet] You
dropped your rock.
Hamish: It's a test of manhood.
William Wallace: You win.
Hamish: Call it a test of soldiery then. The English won't let us train with
weapons, so we train with stones.
Grey Satterfield
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BFAE0077.1FCA6%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>
>> "Braveheart" "a crap movie"? That assertion is itself, "crap." With more
>> than 100,000 votes having been cast, Internet Movie Database voters have
>> voted "Braveheart" No. 92 on the IMDb list of the 250 greatest movies ever
>> made. The film won both best picture and best director in 1996.
>
> The IMDb list!
>
> Oh great a list of movies that men with computers who live in the USA think
> are good...
>
> I believe The Godfather is usually top, followed by The Shawshank
> Redemption.
>
> Ho ho ho...
>
> Braveheart is badly written and cast, the battles are chaotic and horrible
> and the settings are crude.
>
> Gibson plays 'Mel Gibson', as always, everyone else looks as if they're
> waiting for it to be over and the cheque to arrive.
>
> The single honourable exception is Patrick McGoohan who is obviously relying
> on his theatrical training to get through the whole ghastly pudding.
There is no accounting for taste -- or, in William's case, the lack thereof.
It appears to me that William simply does not understand film. So be it.
Both the New York Times reviewer, Caryn James, and the redoubtable Roger
Ebert found "Braveheart" to be outstanding:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/filmarchive/braveheart.html
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19950524/REVIEWS/5
05240301/1023
James said, "'Braveheart' is a great, ambitious gamble that pays off. In his
second film as director . . . Gibson has come through with an exhilarating
new-fashioned epic."
Ebert gave the film 3.5 out of a possible 4 stars.
I suggest that William find an issue to debate that he understands better
than his posts so far indicate he understands film.
Grey Satterfield
William Black
> I suggest that William find an issue to debate that he understands better
> than his posts so far indicate he understands film.
I know that the film database you quoted is a laughing stock.
I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone.
'Braveheart' is a fun film, but what it isn't is 'great art'...
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
>On 11/25/05 5:59 PM, in article dm88fa$blc$1...@news.freedom2surf.net, "William
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
>Nonsense!
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
>On 11/25/05 5:59 PM, in article dm88fa$blc$1...@news.freedom2surf.net, "William
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Peter Skelton
<pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Nonsense!
>
>Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>
It's a shame he misused it so grotesquely. Do you think kids will
study his works in five hundred years?
>Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>it.
>
Did Shakespeare pretend to historical accuracy? If he didn't,
care to reconcile your sig with your opinion here?
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>Vires et Honor
>
Peter Skelton
Peter Skelton
<grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>On 11/26/05 11:56 AM, in article fl1if.467$eP....@eagle.america.net, "D.
>Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Nonsense!
>>
>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>
>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>> it.
>
>That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the prism
>of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
>historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
>therefore, demonstrates a naīve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
>
Unless, of course, the artist pretends to historical accuracy.
Peter Skelton
Bryn
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>Nonsense!
>
>Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>
>Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>it.
More culture then?
The Disastrous Fire at Scarborough
'Twas in the year of 1898, and on the 8th of June,
A mother and six children met with a cruel doom
In one of the most fearful fires for some years past
And as the spectators gazed upon them they stood aghast
The fire broke out in a hairdresser's, in the town of Scarborough,
And as the fire spread it filled the people's hearts with sorrow;
But the police and the fire brigade were soon on the ground,
Then the hose and reel were quickly sent round.
Oh! it was horrible to see the flames leaping up all around,
While amongst the spectators the silence was profound,
As they saw a men climb out to the parapet high,
Resolved to save his life, or in the attempt to die!
And he gave one half frantic leap, with his heart full of woe,
And came down upon the roof of a public-house 20 feet below;
But, alas! he slipped and fell through the skylight,
And received cuts and bruises: oh, what a horrible sight!
He was the tenant of the premises, Mr Brookes,
And for his wife and family he enquires, with anxious looks,
But no one could tell him, it did appear,
And when told so adown his cheeks flowed many a tear.
He had been sleeping by himself on the second floor,
When suddenly alarmed, he thought he'd make sure,
And try to escape from the burning pile with his life,
And try and save his family and his wife.
The fire brigade played on the first door with greet speed,
But the flames had very inflammable fuel upon which to feed,
So that the fire spread with awful rapidity,
And in twenty minutes the building was doomed to the fourth storey.
The firemen wrought with might and main,
But still the fire did on them gain,
That it was two hours before they could reach the second floor,
The heat being so intense they could scarcely it endure.
And inside all the time a woman and six children were there,
And when the firemen saw them, in amazement they did stare;
The sight that met their eyes made them for to start
Oh, Heaven! the sight was sufficient to rend the strongest heart. For
there was Mrs Brookes stretched dead on the floor,
Who had fallen in trying her escape for to procure.
She was lying with one arm over her ten months old child,
And her cries for help, no doubt, were frantic and wild;
And part of her arm was burned off as it lay above
The child she was trying to shield, which shows a mother's love.
For the baby's flesh was partly uninjured by the flames,
Which shows that the loving mother had endured great pains;
It, however, met its death by suffocation,
And as the spectators gazed thereon, it fi11ed their hearts with
consternation. The firemen acted heroicallv, without any dread,
And when they entered the back premises they found the six children
dead; But Mr Brookes, 'tis said, is still alive,
And I hope for many years he will survive.
Oh, Heaven! it is cruel to perish by fire,
Therefore let us be watchful before to our beds we retire,
And see that everything is in safe order before we fall asleep,
And pray that God o'er us in the night watch will keep.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>Vires et Honor
>
>
--
Bryn
"Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh
"But be certain, you will get nasty lines on your bum!"
To email remove GREMILNS
Bryn
The Terrific Cyclone of 1893
'
Twas in the year of 1893, and on the 17th and 18th of November,
Which the people of Dundee and elsewhere will long remember,
The terrific cyclone that blew down trees,
And wrecked many vessels on the high seas.
All along the coast the Storm Fiend did loudly roar,
Whereby many ships were wrecked along the shore,
And many seamen lost their lives,
Which caused their children to mourn and their wives.
Alas! they wiil never see their husbands again,
And to weep for them 'tis all in vain,
Because sorrow never could revive the dead,
Therefore they must weep, knowing all hope is fled.
The people's hearts in Dundee were full of dread
For fear of chimney-cans falling on their heads,
And the roofs of several houses were hurled to the ground,
And the tenants were affrighted, and their sorrow was profound,
And scores of wooden sheds were levelled to the ground,
And chimney stalks fell with a crashing rebound :
The gale swept everything before it in its way;
No less than 250 trees and 37 tombstones were blown down at Balgay.
Oh! it was a pitiful and a terrible sight
To see the fallen trees lying left and right,
Scattered about in the beautiful Hill of Balgay,
Also the tombstones that were swept away.
At Broughty Ferry the gale made a noise like thunder,
Which made the inhabitants shake with fear and wonder
If their dwellings would be blown to the ground,
While the slates and chimney-cans were falling all around.
Early on the 18th a disaster occurred on the Tay :
The wreck of the steamer "Union,"- Oh! horror and dismay!
Whereby four lives have been taken away,
Which will make their friends mourn for many a day.
The steamer left Newburgh for Dundee with a cargo of sand,
And the crew expected they would safely land,
But by the time the steamer was opposite Dundee,
Alas! stronger blew the gale, and heavier grew the sea.
And in order to prevent stranding the anchor was let go,
And with the cold the hearts of the crew were full of woe,
While the merciless Storm .Fiend loudly did roar,
As the vessel was driven towards the Fife shore.
Then the crew took shelter in the stokehole,
From the cold wind they could no longer thole,
But the high seas broke over her, one finding its way
Right into the stokehole, which filled the crew's hearts with dismay.
Then one of the crew, observing that the steamer had broached to,
Immediately went on deck to see what he could do,
And he tried hard to keep her head to the sea,
But the big waves dashed over her furiously.
Then Strachan shouted that the "Union" was sinking fast,
Which caused his companions to stand aghast,
And Strachan tried to lower the small boat,
But alas! the vessel sunk, and the boat wouldn't float,
And before he could recover himself he was struggling in the sea,
And battling with the big waves right manfully,
But his companions sank with the "Union" in the Tay,
Which filled Strachan's heart with sorrow and dismay,
And after a great struggle he reached the beach,
Fortunately so, which he never expected to reach,
For often he was drawn back by the back-wash,
As the big waves against his body did dash.
But, when nearly exhausted, and near to the land,
A piece of wreckage was near him, which he grasped with his hand,
Which providentially came within his reach,
And bruised, and battered, he was thrown on the beach.
He was so exhausted, he was unable to stand upright,
He felt so weakly, he was in such a plight,
Because the big waves had done him bodily harm,
Yet on hands and knees he crept to a house at Northfield farm.
He arrived there at ten minutes past four o'clock,
And when he awakened the inmates, their nerves got a shock,
But under their kind treatment he recovered speedily,
And was able to recount the disaster correctly.
Oh! it was a fearful, and a destructive storm!
I never mind the like since I was born,
Only the Tay Bridge storm of 1879,
And both these storms will be remembered for a very long time.
In message <ksntFoA8...@message.id.missing>, D. Spencer Hines
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Good Stuff...Well-Written
>AHHNILATED.
>[William Wallace is dreaming, and sees the spirit of his wife]
>William Wallace: I'm dreaming.
>Murron: Yes, you are. And you must wake, William.
>[pause]
>William Wallace: I don't want to wake. I want to stay here with you.
>Hamish: [before Wallace leaves to go to Edinburgh, where he is captured
>after being betrayed] Ach nobles! nest o' schemin' bastards; they canny
>agree oan the colour o' shite.
>Princess Isabelle: I understand you have recently been given the rank of
>knight.
>William Wallace: I have been given nothing. God makes men what they are.
>William Wallace: [after Hamish drops a boulder at Wallace's feet] You
>dropped your rock.
>Hamish: It's a test of manhood.
>William Wallace: You win.
>Hamish: Call it a test of soldiery then. The English won't let us train with
>weapons, so we train with stones.
Bryn
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>Good Stuff...Well-Written
>DSH
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Memorable Quotes from
>Braveheart (1995)
>Argyle Wallace: They are saying goodbye in their own way. Playing
>outlawed tunes on outlawed pipes.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert's Father: At last, you know what it means to hate. Now you're
>ready to be a king.
>Robert the Bruce: My hate will die with you.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Princess Isabelle: The king desires peace.
>William Wallace: Longshanks desires peace?
>Princess Isabelle: He declares it to me, I swear it. He proposes that
>you withdraw your attack. In return he grants you title, estates, and
>this chest of gold which I am to pay to you personally.
>William Wallace: A lordship and titles. Gold. That I should become Judas?
>Princess Isabelle: Peace is made in such ways.
>William Wallace: Slaves are made in such ways. The last time Longshanks
>spoke of peace I was a boy. And many Scottish nobles, who would not be
>slaves, were lured by him under a flag of truce to a barn, where he had
>them hanged. I was very young, but I remember Longshanks' notion of
>peace.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert the Bruce: Lands, titles, men, power... nothing.
>Robert's Father: Nothing?
>Robert the Bruce: I have nothing. Men fight for me because if they do
>not, I throw them off my land and I starve their wives and children.
>Those men who bled the ground red at Falkirk fought for William
>Wallace. He fights for something that I never had. And I took it from
>him, when I betrayed him. I saw it in his face on the battlefield and
>it's tearing me apart.
>Robert's Father: All men betray. All lose heart.
>Robert the Bruce: I don't want to lose heart. I want to believe as he does.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: There's a difference between us. You think the people
>of this land exist to provide you with position. I think your position
>exists to provide those people with freedom. And I go to make sure that
>they have it.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Not the archers. My scouts tell me their archers are miles
>away and no threat to us. Arrows cost money. Use up the Irish. Their
>dead cost nothing.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: The Almighty says this must be a fashionable fight. It's drawn
>the finest people.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Lower your flags and march straight back to England,
>stopping at every home to beg forgiveness for a hundred years of theft,
>rape, and murder. Do this and your men shall live. Do it not, and every
>one of you will die today.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert the Bruce: You have bled with Wallace, now bleed with me.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Princess Isabelle: I understand you have suffered. I know... about your woman.
>William Wallace: [pauses, then sighs sadly] She was my wife. We married
>in secret because I would not share her with an English lord. They
>killed her to get to me. I've never spoken of it, I don't know why I
>tell you now, except... I see her strength in you. One day, you will be
>a queen. And you must open your eyes.
>[regains composure, speaks firmly]
>William Wallace: You tell your king that William Wallace will NOT be
>ruled... and nor will any Scot while I live.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Princess Isabelle: The king will be dead in a month and his son is a
>weakling. Who do you think is going to rule this kingdom?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: I came home to raise crops, and God willing, a family.
>If I can live in peace, I will.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: It's fine Scottish weather we're having. The rain is
>falling straight down and kind of to the side like.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Why do you help me?
>Princess Isabelle: Because of the way you are looking at me now.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: And if this is your army, why does it go?
>Soldier: We didn't come here to fight for them.
>Second Soldier: Home, the English are too many!
>William Wallace: Sons of Scotland! I am William Wallace.
>Second Soldier: William Wallace is seven feet tall!
>William Wallace: Yes, I've heard. Kills men by the hundreds. And if HE
>were here, he'd consume the English with fireballs from his eyes, and
>bolts of lightning from his arse.
>[Scottish army laughs]
>William Wallace: I AM William Wallace! And I see a whole army of my
>country men, here, in defiance of tyranny. You've come to fight as free
>men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you
>fight?
>Soldier: Against that? No, we'll run, and we'll live.
>William Wallace: Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live... at
>least a while. And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you
>be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one
>chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that
>they may take away our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!
>[Crowd cheers]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: [to Prince Edward] One day you will be a king. At least try
>to act like one.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Who is this person that speaks to me as though I needed his
>advice?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Before we let you leave, your commander must cross
>that field, present himself before this army, put his head between his
>legs, and kiss his own arse.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[last lines]
>William Wallace: [narrating] In the Year of our Lord 1314, patriots of
>Scotland - starving and outnumbered - charged the fields of
>Bannockburn. They fought like warrior poets; they fought like Scotsmen,
>and won their freedom.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: I love you. Always have. I want to marry you.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: [Speaking heavenward] Him? That can't be William Wallace. I'm
>prettier than this man. All right Father, I'll ask him.
>Stephen: [to William] If I risk my neck for you, will I get a chance to
>kill Englishmen?
>Hamish: Is your father a ghost, or do you converse with the Almighty?
>Stephen: In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God.
>Stephen: [Heavenward] Yes, Father.
>Stephen: [to William and the others] The Almighty says don't change the
>subject; just answer the fucking question.
>Hamish: Mind your tongue.
>Campbell: Insane Irish.
>Stephen: [Draws a dagger and holds it to Campbell's throat] Smart
>enough to get a dagger past your guards, old man.
>William Wallace: [Holding a spear at Stephen's chest] That's my friend,
>Irishman. And the answer to your question is yes - if you fight for me,
>you get to kill the English.
>Stephen: Excellent!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: In order to converse with an equal, an Irishman is forced to
>talk to God.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Malcolm Wallace: Your heart is free. Have the courage to follow it.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Whom do I send? Not my gentle son. The mere sight of him
>would only encourage an enemy to take over the whole country.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Nicolette: Englishmen don't know what a tongue is for.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[after killing a would-be assassin]
>Stephen: I didn't like him anyway. He wasn't right in the head.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Campbell: [after his wound is cauterized] That'll wake you up in the mornin'.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Hamish: William, wake up. Someone's coming!
>Campbell: [goes down to see a body of armed men approaching] MacGregors
>from the next clan over.
>MacGregor: We heard about what was happenin' and didn't want you
>"Amadans" to have all the fun.
>William Wallace: Some of us are in this; the rest of you, go home.
>MacGregor: Go home to what? Our houses and farms burned when the
>English garrison comes down from the castle? And you know they will!
>[Wallace motions for the MacGregors to join them]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert the Bruce: I'm not a coward. I want what you want, but we need
>the nobles.
>William Wallace: We need them?
>Robert the Bruce: Aye
>William Wallace: Nobles. Now tell me, what does that mean to be noble?
>Your title gives you claim to the throne of our country, but men don't
>follow titles, they follow courage. Now our people know you. Noble, and
>common, they respect you. And if you would just lead them to freedom,
>they'd follow you. And so would I
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Hamish: Some men are longer than others.
>Campbell: Your mother's been telling stories about me again, ah?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>English Commander: I hope you washed your ass this morning, it's about
>to be kissed by a king.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: ...chaque jour j'ai pensé à toi.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Malcolm Wallace: It's our wits that make us men.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: The answer is yes. Fight for me, you get to kill the English.
>Stephen: Excellent.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Go back to England and tell them there that Scotland's
>daughters and sons are yours no more. Tell them Scotland is free.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[to Longshanks]
>Princess Isabelle: You see? Death comes to us all. But before it comes
>to you, know this: your blood dies with you. A child who is not of your
>line grows in my belly. Your son will not sit long on the throne. I
>swear it.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: The trouble with Scotland is that it's full of Scots.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: [to William Wallace] The Almighty tells me he can get me out
>of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're fucked.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Every man dies, not every man really lives.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[Lord Bottoms has previously taken Morrison's wife as his own]
>Morrison: Do you remember me?
>Lord Bottoms: I never did her any harm. It was my right.
>Morrison: Your right? Well, I'm here to claim the right of a husband.
>[Kills Lord Bottoms]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Campbell: I'm dying. Let me be.
>Hamish: No. You're going to live.
>Campbell: I've lived long enough to live free. And proud to see you
>become the man that you are. I'm a happy man.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Lord Bottoms: As lord of these lands I shall bless this marriage by
>taking the bride into my bed on the first night of her union.
>Morrison: By God, you will not.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: We all end up dead, the question is how and why.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: Stephen is my name. I'm the most wanted man on my island.
>Except I'm not on my island, of course. More's the pity.
>Hamish: Your island? You mean Ireland.
>Stephen: Yeah. It's MINE.
>Hamish: You're a madman.
>Stephen: [Laughs] I've come to the right place then.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Argyle Wallace: We'll stay here tonight, leave in the mornin'.
>Young William: But I don't want to leave.
>Argyle Wallace: You did not want your father to die either, but it happened.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Argyle Wallace: Did the priest give a poetic benediction? "The Lord
>bless thee and keep thee..."
>Young William: It was in Latin.
>Argyle Wallace: You don't speak Latin? Eh, then that is something we
>shall have to remedy.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Archers.
>English Commander: Beg your pardon sire, but won't we hit our own troops ?
>Longshanks: Yes... but we'll hit theirs as well. We have reserves... attack .
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Royal Magistrate: The prisoner wishes to say a word.
>William Wallace: FREEEEE-DOMMMMMM.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[first lines]
>Narrator: I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England
>will say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged
>heroes. The king of Scotland had died without a son, and the king of
>England, a cruel pagan known as Edward the Longshanks, claimed the
>throne of Scotland for himself. Scotland's nobles fought him, and
>fought each other, over the crown. So Longshanks invited them to talks
>of truce - no weapons, one page only. Among the farmers of that shire
>was Malcolm Wallace, a commoner with his own lands; he had two sons,
>John and William.
>Malcolm Wallace: I told ye to stay.
>Young William: Well, I finished my work. Where're we goin'?
>Malcolm Wallace: McAndrews'. He was supposed to visit when the
>gatherin' was over.
>Young William: Can I come?
>Malcolm Wallace: No! Go home, boy.
>Young William: But I want to go.
>Malcolm Wallace: Go home, William, or you'll feel the back o' my hand.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Hamish: What in the hell are the Irish doing fighting with the English?
>Stephen: I wouldn't worry about them. Like I said, it's my island.
>William Wallace: Your island?
>Stephen: MY ISLAND. Yup.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Stephen: Just when we thought all hope was lost, our noble saviors have
>arrived.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Hamish: Where are you going?
>William Wallace: I'm going to pick a fight.
>Hamish: Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothing.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Princess Isabelle: I've come to beg for the life of William Wallace.
>Prince Edward: [scoffs] You're quite taken with him, aren't you?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert the Bruce: Now, I know you've sacrificed much. But fighting
>these odds looks like rage, not courage.
>William Wallace: It's well beyond rage. Help me. For Christ's sake,
>help yourselves. If we join, we can win. If we win, well then we'll
>have what none of us has ever had before: a country of our own.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert's Father: Longshanks acquired Wallace. So did our nobles. That
>was the price of your crown.
>Robert the Bruce: DIE. I want you to die.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Bring me Wallace. Alive if possible, dead... just as good.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Robert's Father: I'm the one that's rotting, but your face looks graver
>than mine.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[Murron is tied to a post about to be executed]
>Magistrate: All of you know full well, the great pains I have always
>taken never to be too strict, too rigid with the application of our
>laws, and as a consequence, have we not learned to live together in
>relative peace and harmony, huh? And this day's lawlessness is how you
>repay my leniency. Well you leave me with little choice. An assault on
>the king's soldiers is the same as an assault on the king himself.
>[he slits Murron's throat]
>Magistrate: [about Wallace] Now, let this scrapper come to me.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>William Wallace: Ego sum hominus indomitus.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>King's Advisor: [to Princess] Sanguinarious homo indomitus est, et se
>me dite cum mendagio.
>[He is a murderous savage, and he is telling lies]
>William Wallace: Ego nunco pronunciari mendagio! Sed ego sum homo indomitus.
>[I never lie! But I am a savage]
>William Wallace: [to Princess] Ou en français, si vous préférez?
>[Or in French, if you prefer?]
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: Scottish rebels have routed one of my garrisons and
>murdered the noble lord.
>Prince Edward: I heard. This Wallace is a brigand, nothing more.
>Longshanks: And how would you deal with this 'brigand?'
>Prince Edward: Like any common thief. Have the local magistrate arrest
>him and punish him accordingly.
>Longshanks: [strikes the Prince] Wallace has already killed the
>magistrate, and taken control of the town!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Longshanks: What news of the North?
>Prince Edward: Nothing new, your majesty. We've sent riders to speed any word.
>Longshanks: I heard word in France where I was fighting to expand your
>future kingdom. The word, my son, is that our entire Northern Army is
>AHHNILATED.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>[William Wallace is dreaming, and sees the spirit of his wife]
>William Wallace: I'm dreaming.
>Murron: Yes, you are. And you must wake, William.
>[pause]
>William Wallace: I don't want to wake. I want to stay here with you.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Hamish: [before Wallace leaves to go to Edinburgh, where he is captured
>after being betrayed] Ach nobles! nest o' schemin' bastards; they canny
>agree oan the colour o' shite.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>Princess Isabelle: I understand you have recently been given the rank
>of knight.
>William Wallace: I have been given nothing. God makes men what they are.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
Bryn
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>Good Stuff...Well-Written.
Bryn
<pogue...@hotmail.com> writes
>
>Good Stuff...Well-Written
>AHHNILATED.
Nebulous
"redc1c4" <red...@drunkenbastards.org.ies> wrote in message
news:4388E4C7...@drunkenbastards.org.ies...
To the most Holy Father and Lord in Christ, the Lord John, by divine
providence Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Roman and Universal Church, his
humble and devout sons Duncan, Earl of Fife, Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray,
Lord of Man and of Annandale, Patrick Dunbar, Earl of March, Malise, Earl of
Strathearn, Malcolm, Earl of Lennox, William, Earl of Ross, Magnus, Earl of
Caithness and Orkney, and William, Earl of Sutherland; Walter, Steward of
Scotland, William Soules, Butler of Scotland, James, Lord of Douglas, Roger
Mowbray, David, Lord of Brechin, David Graham, Ingram Umfraville, John
Menteith, guardian of the earldom of Menteith, Alexander Fraser, Gilbert
Hay, Constable of Scotland, Robert Keith, Marischal of Scotland, Henry St
Clair, John Graham, David Lindsay, William Oliphant, Patrick Graham, John
Fenton, William Abernethy, David Wemyss, William Mushet, Fergus of
Ardrossan, Eustace Maxwell, William Ramsay, William Mowat, Alan Murray,
Donald Campbell, John Cameron, Reginald Cheyne, Alexander Seton, Andrew
Leslie, and Alexander Straiton, and the other barons and freeholders and the
whole community of the realm of Scotland send all manner of filial
reverence, with devout kisses of his blessed feet.
Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of
the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has
been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by
way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long
course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they
be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred
years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the
west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the
Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the
Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home
with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time
bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their
kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal
stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise
manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of
lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called
them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the
first to His most holy faith. Nor would He have them confirmed in that faith
by merely anyone but by the first of His Apostles -- by calling, though
second or third in rank -- the most gentle Saint Andrew, the Blessed Peter's
brother, and desired him to keep them under his protection as their patron
forever.
The Most Holy Fathers your predecessors gave careful heed to these things
and bestowed many favours and numerous privileges on this same kingdom and
people, as being the special charge of the Blessed Peter's brother. Thus our
nation under their protection did indeed live in freedom and peace up to the
time when that mighty prince the King of the English, Edward, the father of
the one who reigns today, when our kingdom had no head and our people
harboured no malice or treachery and were then unused to wars or invasions,
came in the guise of a friend and ally to harass them as an enemy. The deeds
of cruelty, massacre, violence, pillage, arson, imprisoning prelates,
burning down monasteries, robbing and killing monks and nuns, and yet other
outrages without number which he committed against our people, sparing
neither age nor sex, religion nor rank, no one could describe nor fully
imagine unless he had seen them with his own eyes.
But from these countless evils we have been set free, by the help of Him
Who though He afflicts yet heals and restores, by our most tireless Prince,
King and Lord, the Lord Robert. He, that his people and his heritage might
be delivered out of the hands of our enemies, met toil and fatigue, hunger
and peril, like another Macabaeus or Joshua and bore them cheerfully. Him,
too, divine providence, his right of succession according to or laws and
customs which we shall maintain to the death, and the due consent and assent
of us all have made our Prince and King. To him, as to the man by whom
salvation has been wrought unto our people, we are bound both by law and by
his merits that our freedom may be still maintained, and by him, come what
may, we mean to stand.
Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our
kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert
ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own
rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our
King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any
conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor
riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone,
which no honest man gives up but with life itself.
Therefore it is, Reverend Father and Lord, that we beseech your Holiness
with our most earnest prayers and suppliant hearts, inasmuch as you will in
your sincerity and goodness consider all this, that, since with Him Whose
Vice-Regent on earth you are there is neither weighing nor distinction of
Jew and Greek, Scotsman or Englishman, you will look with the eyes of a
father on the troubles and privation brought by the English upon us and upon
the Church of God. May it please you to admonish and exhort the King of the
English, who ought to be satisfied with what belongs to him since England
used once to be enough for seven kings or more, to leave us Scots in peace,
who live in this poor little Scotland, beyond which there is no
dwelling-place at all, and covet nothing but our own. We are sincerely
willing to do anything for him, having regard to our condition, that we can,
to win peace for ourselves.
This truly concerns you, Holy Father, since you see the savagery of the
heathen raging against the Christians, as the sins of Christians have indeed
deserved, and the frontiers of Christendom being pressed inward every day;
and how much it will tarnish your Holiness's memory if (which God forbid)
the Church suffers eclipse or scandal in any branch of it during your time,
you must perceive. Then rouse the Christian princes who for false reasons
pretend that they cannot go to help of the Holy Land because of wars they
have on hand with their neighbours. The real reason that prevents them is
that in making war on their smaller neighbours they find quicker profit and
weaker resistance. But how cheerfully our Lord the King and we too would go
there if the King of the English would leave us in peace, He from Whom
nothing is hidden well knows; and we profess and declare it to you as the
Vicar of Christ and to all Christendom.
But if your Holiness puts too much faith in the tales the English tell and
will not give sincere belief to all this, nor refrain from favouring them to
our prejudice, then the slaughter of bodies, the perdition of souls, and all
the other misfortunes that will follow, inflicted by them on us and by us on
them, will, we believe, be surely laid by the Most High to your charge.
To conclude, we are and shall ever be, as far as duty calls us, ready to
do your will in all things, as obedient sons to you as His Vicar; and to Him
as the Supreme King and Judge we commit the maintenance of our cause,
csating our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with
courage and bring our enemies to nought.
May the Most High preserve you to his Holy Church in holiness and health
and grant you length of days.
Given at the monastery of Arbroath in Scotland on the sixth day of the
month of April in the year of grace thirteen hundred and twenty and the
fifteenth year of the reign of our King aforesaid.
Endorsed: Letter directed to our Lord the Supreme Pontiff by the community
of Scotland.
Additional names written on some of the seal tags: Alexander Lamberton,
Edward Keith, John Inchmartin, Thomas Menzies, John Durrant, Thomas Morham
(and one illegible).
Nebulous
"redc1c4" <red...@drunkenbastards.org.ies> wrote in message
Josiah Jenkins
Skelton <skel...@cogeco.ca> :
>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:23:04 -0600, Grey Satterfield
><grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
>>On 11/26/05 11:56 AM, in article fl1if.467$eP....@eagle.america.net, "D.
>>Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nonsense!
>>>
>>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>>
>>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>>> it.
>>
>>That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the prism
>>of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
>>historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
>>therefore, demonstrates a naïve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
Josiah Jenkins
Skelton <skel...@cogeco.ca> :
>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:56:09 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
Josiah Jenkins
<br...@GREMILNSfinhall.demon.co.uk> :
D. Spencer Hines
getting their bowels in an uproar over _Braveheart_ and Real History should
read this.
DSH
-------------------------------------------------------
"In the case of Braveheart, our opinion of the film's "inaccuracies" becomes
more complex when we realize that the "sources" for the screenwriters were
not "the historical records of the early fourteenth century" but the
writings about Wallace by "Blind Harry" at the end of the 15th century,
writings intended to arouse patriotic passions against English penetration."
"Faulty as it might have been as early fourteenth century history, as a
reproduction of a late medieval "nationalist" use of history, it is hard to
think of a better "historical movie" than Braveheart!"
Paul Hallsall
--------------------------------
Bingo!
Rampant pogues and English guttersnipes keep insisting Mel Gibson has loudly
claimed that _Braveheart_ is scrupulously historically accurate.
Yet they never provide any quotations and citations of Mel Gibson actually
saying that.
Par for the course ---- they just make up these wild assertions as they go
along and hope they won't get caught.
Nebulous
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f7if.498$eP....@eagle.america.net...
D. Spencer Hines
Those ignorant pogues, ragamuffins and envious academics who are constantly
getting their bowels in an uproar over _Braveheart_ and Real History should
read this.
DSH
-------------------------------------------------------
"In the case of Braveheart, our opinion of the film's "inaccuracies" becomes
more complex when we realize that the "sources" for the screenwriters were
not "the historical records of the early fourteenth century" but the
writings about Wallace by "Blind Harry" at the end of the 15th century,
writings intended to arouse patriotic passions against English penetration."
"Faulty as it might have been as early fourteenth century history, as a
reproduction of a late medieval "nationalist" use of history, it is hard to
think of a better "historical movie" than Braveheart!"
Paul Halsall
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
>Recte:
Grey Satterfield
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
> news:BFAE0857.1FCC9%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>
>> I suggest that William find an issue to debate that he understands better
>> than his posts so far indicate he understands film.
>
> I know that the film database you quoted is a laughing stock.
>
> I am as entitled to my opinion as anyone.
>
> 'Braveheart' is a fun film, but what it isn't is 'great art'...
As a matter of fact, the IMDb is a primary resource for all knowledgeable
film students. William needs to get with the program.
"Braveheart" is entertaining and often moving. The only folks who think
otherwise seem to be those who naively criticize works of art because they
expect art to literally report history. For reasons I have explained in a
couple of other posts that doesn't happen and knowledgeable folks don't
expect it to.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:56:09 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Nonsense!
>>
>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>
> It's a shame he misused it so grotesquely. Do you think kids will
> study his works in five hundred years?
>
>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>> it.
>>
> Did Shakespeare pretend to historical accuracy? If he didn't,
> care to reconcile your sig with your opinion here?
That's NOT the point, of course. The issue is whether a movie like
"Braveheart," which was both exciting and moving and was also wildly popular
with moviegoers, should be called a bad film because it wasn't entirely
historically accurate. All artists conflate history and fiction and the
refusal to recognize that doing so is entirely appropriate is naīve.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:23:04 -0600, Grey Satterfield
> <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/26/05 11:56 AM, in article fl1if.467$eP....@eagle.america.net, "D.
>> Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Nonsense!
>>>
>>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>>
>>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>>> it.
>>
>> That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the prism
>> of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
>> historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
>> therefore, demonstrates a naïve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
>>
> Unless, of course, the artist pretends to historical accuracy.
All artists hype the fact that their historical dramas are "based on a true
story," which to a degree they are. But it is naïve to expect them to say
that their artistic visions diverge from historical facts. All popular
entertainment is more or less fictional. One should be satisfied when a
motion picture is exciting and moving and not worry about its historical
inaccuracies, it seems to me.
Grey Satterfield
D. Spencer Hines
_Braveheart_ is a superior film -- even the Academy of Motion Picture Arts
and Sciences recognized it as such and gave it their Best Picture Of The
Year Award in 1995.
Mass Entertainment is NOT Academic History -- and was never intended to
be -- neither was Shakespeare.
Deal With It...
Pogue Gans, crawl back into your academic hole...and pipe down.
'Nuff Said.
DSH
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:BFAE6D2D.1FD37%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
>>>
>>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful
>>> at it.
>>>
>> Did Shakespeare pretend to historical accuracy? If he didn't,
>> care to reconcile your sig with your opinion here?
>
> That's NOT the point, of course. The issue is whether a movie like
> "Braveheart," which was both exciting and moving and was also wildly
> popular with moviegoers, should be called a bad film because it wasn't
> entirely historically accurate. All artists conflate history and fiction
> and the refusal to recognize that doing so is entirely appropriate is
> naďve.
>
> Grey Satterfield
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
>On 11/26/05 3:28 PM, in article vmkho1djsdmci9p7s...@4ax.com,
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
>> naīve.
>>
>> Grey Satterfield
>
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
>Recte:
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
<snipped>
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
<snipped>
Josiah Jenkins
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> :
<snipped>
Josiah Jenkins
Satterfield <grey.sat...@oscn.net> :
<snipped>
ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk
grey.sat...@oscn.net (Grey Satterfield) wrote:
> In any movie that is claimed "based on a
> true story," historical accuracy is always going to give way to the
> needs of the drama because moviemakers are storytellers not
> historians.
Of course recreating the battle of Stirling Bridge without the bridge
is a bigger liberty than most film makers take. Without the bridge the
result would have been most likely the same as Falkirk.
Ken Young
William Black
<ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e4mdnb2Rwri...@pipex.net...
> In article <BFAE0077.1FCA6%grey.sat...@oscn.net>,
> grey.sat...@oscn.net (Grey Satterfield) wrote:
>
> > In any movie that is claimed "based on a
> > true story," historical accuracy is always going to give way to the
> > needs of the drama because moviemakers are storytellers not
> > historians.
>
> Of course recreating the battle of Stirling Bridge without the bridge
Or Stirling come to that...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Nonsense!
>
> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>
> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
> it.
Shakespeare hadn't the critical assets to get it better, modern writers do.
If they are doing history then it should be historical, or at least
historical within known parameters. If they are writing fiction then change
the historical names and call it fiction. That way they can do all the
artistic license they want without miss-representing events and people to an
audience of real people who need to base modern decisions on real
history. -the Troll
hippo
"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>> Nonsense!
>>
>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>
>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>> it.
>
> That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the
> prism
> of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
> historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
> therefore, demonstrates a naïve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
I have no problems with art as long as it isn't a lie.
History, real history, has a stand-alone value in teaching us the past
problems of our race. History diffracted through artistic prisms hasn't that
value and, far worse, has the effect of propaganda, intentional or not. We
have enough trouble distilling reality from ancient fairy stories without
modern artists gumming up the works.
Kids who watch crap like 'Braveheart' actually believe that stuff knowing,
as they do, that the real history is only as far away as a good university
library.
There is plenty of good historical fiction out there which is both
interesting, beautiful, and comparatively accurate. Gibson did one early on
called 'Gallipoli' which is one of my favorite films. -the Troll
hippo
"William Black" wrote in message
> "Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
>> "Braveheart" "a crap movie"? That assertion is itself, "crap." With
>> more
>> than 100,000 votes having been cast, Internet Movie Database voters have
>> voted "Braveheart" No. 92 on the IMDb list of the 250 greatest movies
>> ever
>> made. The film won both best picture and best director in 1996.
>
> The IMDb list!
>
> Oh great a list of movies that men with computers who live in the USA
> think
> are good...
>
> I believe The Godfather is usually top, followed by The Shawshank
> Redemption.
>
> Ho ho ho...
>
> Braveheart is badly written and cast, the battles are chaotic and
> horrible
> and the settings are crude.
>
> Gibson plays 'Mel Gibson', as always, everyone else looks as if they're
> waiting for it to be over and the cheque to arrive.
>
> The single honourable exception is Patrick McGoohan who is obviously
> relying
> on his theatrical training to get through the whole ghastly pudding.
Yup, York looked like a Scottish sheep pen, the English army was marching in
step in Hollywood 'uniform' like the soulless 'machine' it was intended to
portray, the PoW came off like a San Francisco hairdresser, and even
McGoohan looked like he was having difficulty keeping a straight face.
What is worse is that the kids thought it was wonderful which required
several hours of stern lecturing to correct. -the Troll
hippo
"William Black" wrote in message
> 'Braveheart' is a fun film, but what it isn't is 'great art'...
....or even remotely historical. -the Troll
hippo
"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
> "Braveheart" is entertaining and often moving. The only folks who think
> otherwise seem to be those who naively criticize works of art because they
> expect art to literally report history. For reasons I have explained in a
> couple of other posts that doesn't happen and knowledgeable folks don't
> expect it to.
Leni Riefensthal's stuff was 'entertaining and often moving'.
Cinematographers admit it is some of the best work made in the period. That
doesn't mean it wasn't also an intentional misrepresentation of history and
therefore a lie.
I don't expect films to be literal. I do expect them to pay some attention
to what is known about events, personalities, and the times they purport to
have been set in. Conflating history is easier and cheaper but good films
can and have been made without it. -the Troll
hippo
"Bryn" wrote in message
> "Sit on the fence by all means" said Pooh
>
> "But be certain, you will get nasty lines on your bum!"
Far better work than the script for 'Braveheart'. Thanks again. -the Troll
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> :
Peter Skelton
>refusal to recognize that doing so is entirely appropriate is naïve.
>
Actually it is not the point I'm debating here. You can go back
and check.
His royal cluelessness is agrguing that, because Shakespeare
twisted history, uit is OK for Gibson to twist history (OK by me)
and to claim that he is not (not OK by me).
Peter Skelton
Josiah Jenkins
<hi...@south-sudan.net> :
>
>"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>
>>> Nonsense!
>>>
>>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>>
>>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>>> it.
>>
>> That's the point, of course. Great drama filters history through the
>> prism
>> of creativity, which in the hands of a master produces beauty. Decrying
>> historical inaccuracy in a drama or literature or any other art form,
>> therefore, demonstrates a naīve misunderstanding of the purpose of art.
Josiah Jenkins
Skelton <skel...@cogeco.ca> :
>On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:51:09 -0600, Grey Satterfield
><grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
>
>>On 11/26/05 3:28 PM, in article vmkho1djsdmci9p7s...@4ax.com,
>>"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:56:09 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
>>> <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nonsense!
>>>>
>>>> Mel Gibson had the same artistic license as William Shakespeare.
>>>>
>>> It's a shame he misused it so grotesquely. Do you think kids will
>>> study his works in five hundred years?
>>>
>>>> Both men conflated History and Fiction -- and both men were successful at
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>> Did Shakespeare pretend to historical accuracy? If he didn't,
>>> care to reconcile your sig with your opinion here?
>>
>>That's NOT the point, of course. The issue is whether a movie like
>>"Braveheart," which was both exciting and moving and was also wildly popular
>>with moviegoers, should be called a bad film because it wasn't entirely
>>historically accurate. All artists conflate history and fiction and the
>>refusal to recognize that doing so is entirely appropriate is naďve.
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Josiah Jenkins
Fred J. McCall
:I suggest that William find an issue to debate that he understands better
:than his posts so far indicate he understands film.
Uh, can you think of anything you might suggest for him? :-)
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Jack Love
Grey Satterfield
"ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk" <ken...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
Read my lips, "Braveheart" is popular entertainment. I am confident that
its makers gave not a fig whether the lack of a bridge was historically
inaccurate because they knew damn well that, if they did everything right
dramatically, the folks who saw the movie would would be happy and the
producers would make a lot of money. This is the way of the filmmaking
world. Live with it.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
<hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote:
Anybody who bases "modern decisions" on an artist's version of history has
extremely bad judgment, it seems to me. It's like relying on Barbra
Streisand, Alec Baldwin, or Mel Gibson for sound political advice.
Successful artists are big on creative vision but often -- make that usually
-- very poor when it comes to analysis.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
<hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote:
Those who believe that an artist's view of history is literally true are
naïve but are those who decry historical inaccuracies in works of art are
equally naive.
"Braveheart" was not based on the actual life of William Wallace. It, like
all such popular entertainment, listen up, hear me, IS A WORK OF FICTION
INSPIRED BY REAL HISTORICAL EVENTS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braveheart
Every educated person needs to understand the difference between art and
history. "Braveheart" is art, not history.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
<hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote:
> Yup, York looked like a Scottish sheep pen, the English army was marching in
> step in Hollywood 'uniform' like the soulless 'machine' it was intended to
> portray, the PoW came off like a San Francisco hairdresser, and even
> McGoohan looked like he was having difficulty keeping a straight face.
>
> What is worse is that the kids thought it was wonderful which required
> several hours of stern lecturing to correct. -the Troll
Let's look at the record: The film opens with a narrator telling us "I will
tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will say I am a liar.
But history is written by those who have hanged heroes." Thus the viewer is
told that they will not find this version of the story in history books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braveheart
The nameless narrator and, by extension, Gibson, may have played fast and
loose with history but, so what? "Braveheart" was a wonderful FICTIONAL
picture, based on historical fact.
Kids should be instructed that movies are virtually never a good place to
learn history.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
<hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote:
Here, at last, we can agree. "Braveheart is, indeed, a fictional account of
historical events -- not that there's anything wrong with that.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
I assume that Hippo was referring to Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the
Will," which was a 1935 propaganda film romanticizing Hitler and the Nazi
Party. So far as I know, Mel Gibson had no political agenda, other than,
perhaps to piss off the English, in basing "Braveheart," which was released
in 1996, on a 14th Century Scottish hero. Thus, any comparison between
"Triumph of the Will" and "Braveheart is, to put it as kindly as possible,
inappropriate.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
"Peter Skelton" <skel...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
I agree that "Braveheart" is NOT historically accurate -- that's what makes
it fiction.
Grey Satterfield
D. Spencer Hines
Gibson and his cinematographer discovered that filming a Battle of Stirling
at an actual bridge would be too static and linear for the dynamic camera
techniques they wanted to use.
They wanted to put the cameramen on little islands amongst the troops and
have the warriors swirl around them -- so that is what they did -- to great
cinematic, artistic and emotional effect.
John Toll, the cinematographer, quite rightly won the Academy Award for Best
Cinematography.
DSH
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:BFAF60EA.1FD97%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
hippo
"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
> in article "hippo" wrote:
>> There is plenty of good historical fiction out there which is both
>> interesting, beautiful, and comparatively accurate. Gibson did one early
>> on
>> called 'Gallipoli' which is one of my favorite films. -the Troll
>
> Those who believe that an artist's view of history is literally true are
> naïve but are those who decry historical inaccuracies in works of art are
> equally naive.
Children are naive and most often haven't had the education to know better.
Historical inacuracies in art need exposing.
> "Braveheart" was not based on the actual life of William Wallace. It,
> like
> all such popular entertainment, listen up, hear me, IS A WORK OF FICTION
> INSPIRED BY REAL HISTORICAL EVENTS:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braveheart
>
> Every educated person needs to understand the difference between art and
> history. "Braveheart" is art, not history.
Then call the hero Sam Ogleby and his country Dorff, the King Smallbert the
Fifth and his son Smallbert the Sixth. The hero can then inseminate 10 year
old girls without ever having met her, the evil enemy army can be made to
look like space robots without offending, and the artist can save a fortune
in research and answering the charges of indignant historians. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
Gibson and his cinematographer discovered that filming a Battle of Stirling
at an actual bridge would be too static and linear for the dynamic camera
techniques they wanted to use.
They wanted to put the cameramen on little islands amongst the troops and
have the warriors swirl around them -- so that is what they did -- to great
cinematic, artistic and emotional effect.
John Toll, the cinematographer, quite rightly won the Academy Award for Best
Cinematography.
Mel Gibson won as Best Director.
hippo
"Grey Satterfield" wrote in message
> in article "hippo" wrote:
>> Shakespeare hadn't the critical assets to get it better, modern writers
>> do.
>> If they are doing history then it should be historical, or at least
>> historical within known parameters. If they are writing fiction then
>> change
>> the historical names and call it fiction. That way they can do all the
>> artistic license they want without miss-representing events and people to
>> an
>> audience of real people who need to base modern decisions on real
>> history. -the Troll
>
> Anybody who bases "modern decisions" on an artist's version of history has
> extremely bad judgment, it seems to me. It's like relying on Barbra
> Streisand, Alec Baldwin, or Mel Gibson for sound political advice.
> Successful artists are big on creative vision but often -- make that
> usually
> -- very poor when it comes to analysis.
'Anybody' is all children and adults who have not done post-graduate work in
the period which is 99.99999 percent of the population. It was advertised as
historically accurate. It isn't. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
Further, _Triumph of the Will_ is quite historically accurate and documents
the 1934 Nazi Party Congress in Nuremberg.
But see the earlier film by Riefenstahl, _Der Sieg des Glaubens_, [The
Victory of Faith], which chronicles the 1933 Nazi Party Congress.
The historical differences in these two documentary films are most
revealing concerning the Nazis.
DSH
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
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