The Angry Left Picks A New Target
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
---------------------
"CAMPAIGN 2004"
"No Holiday From Hate
The Angry Left invades Cape May, N.J."
BY ALAN BROMLEY
Friday, August 20, 2004
The WSJ
"CAPE MAY, N.J. -- Last weekend my family took a minivacation at this
bucolic seaside resort, where we enjoyed the calming charm of our
Victorian inn, the rush of the ocean waves, the honky-tonk arcades and
fine food.
Every afternoon from 4 to 5, we found ourselves on the inn's porch with
a dozen or so other guests, genteelly sipping iced tea in our rocking
chairs as the afternoon breeze cooled our new sunburns. One day,
sitting next to a couple from Philadelphia, I was asked what I thought
about the Democratic Convention and who would win the election.
Being in a state between relaxation and boredom, I wasn't sure if I
wanted to enter this discussion, so I replied by asking them what they
thought the biggest issue was.
"Restoring trust to government," the wife replied, sounding like a Kerry
bumper sticker. Her husband, munching a cracker with cheese, nodded in
agreement.
I sensed my 17-year-old daughter's ears perk beneath her black hair and
my wife's spine straighten, both sensing a political storm brewing.
"You don't mean the legend on our currency, 'In God we trust,' do you?"
I teased.
"No!" the husband, who had swallowed his snack, sharply responded.
"We're in favor of separation of church and state, and would prefer that
those words not appear on our dollar bills, just as we want 'under God'
removed from our pledge of allegiance. And you know what we mean," he
continued, ratcheting-up the tone. "Bush lied to us about the war in
Iraq!" The chairs rocked faster.
"How's that?" I replied. Before he could answer, I added, "Saddam
Hussein used weapons of mass destruction three times, once against the
Kurds in the north of Iraq, once against his 'marsh' people in the
south, and against Iran. And every intelligence agency in the world,
including the French, believed he had WMD, and that he was trying to
acquire nuclear materials in Africa. If it was an intelligence
miscalculation, all Saddam had to do was comply with U.N. inspections,
but he refused. There was no lie, at worst a mistake that removed a
brutal dictator who supported terrorism and who killed over 1.5 million
people during his reign of terror."
"Screw you!" someone shouted from across the porch. My daughter's head
swerved to the yelling miscreant, then back to me, somewhat fearful of
my reaction.
I said: "And to you sir, may I ask, don't you see the irony of the
Democrats using 'restore trust' as their slogan. Did you not see their
lineup of speakers?
"Let's count: we had Ted Kennedy, who lied about trying to save Mary Jo
Kopechne. We had Hillary Clinton, who lied about her billing records,
about her commodities trading prowess, about kissing Arafat's wife right
after Arafat accused the Israelis of poisoning Palestinian children. We
had Al Sharpton, of Tawana Brawley fame, who later incited an
anti-Semitic riot in Harlem with fatal consequences -- funny how you
blindly embrace these leaders of liberty, isn't it?
"And then we had your sweetheart, President Clinton, who never saw a big
hairdo or a little lie he couldn't resist. We had John Edwards, who
made his fortune convincing juries of the evils of doctors, and finally,
Kerry himself, who is living the biggest lie of all -- marrying rich,
then richer, and feigning empathy for the downtrodden as he jets from
home to home to home. Are those the men and women in whose hands and
hearts you want to place, if not restore, trust?"
By now some had moved their chairs closer, while others had left,
grumbling about the afternoon being ruined by this political hailstorm.
"Let me ask you something," I said to those with grimaces. "Are you
happy the employment figures were dismal? Are you happy that we are
having more troubles than anticipated in Iraq?"
"Speaking for myself," the Philly wife declared, "any news that helps
defeat Bush makes me happy." Hubby nodded, as did a couple of others
swinging on the veranda. ******
"So let me get this straight: Without offering a remedy for perceived
economic woes, or a plan to win the war in Iraq, it's OK with you if a
couple hundred thousand additional Americans are unemployed, let's say
for a year or so. Your liberal 'scales of justice, of humanity' say
that's a beneficial scenario -- presumably because it's their sacrifice,
not yours. And if we continue to move slowly in Iraq, costing
additional American lives, not to mention the lives and freedom of
Iraqi's, you will be satisfied as long as President Bush isn't
re-elected?" ******
"You're a fascist! We're leaving!" the husband shouted.
"Your freedom of speech, to preach hatred of President Bush and to hope
for American setbacks, even if it costs Americans their lives and
livelihoods, is fine," I said to their backs, "but my questioning of
your shallowness is offensive, right? Enjoy your trip back to the City
of Brotherly Love. I'm sure your neighbors will be happy to see you
return."
I turned to the southwest corner of the porch to see how my wife and
daughter had weathered my latest electric storm. I caught a glimpse of a
smile from my wife and a strong wink from my daughter, as the sun bent
its way around the Victorian inn."
"Mr. Bromley, who lives and writes in New York City, is looking for a
new vacation spot next summer. "
---------------------
They LIE -- Hippo.
'Nuff Said.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Peter Skelton
<pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A Lesson For YODA:
>
>DSH
>---------------------
FOr chrissake stop spamming you F*G pogue
Peter Skelton
Bill Case
affidavit? When do you think you will get it up on the net?
[ for those interested, below is an exchange the "Re: Commodore Hine's
Military Experience and knowledge"
thread concerning using their vast military knowledge to address what they
consider fabrications concerning President Bush's military service record. ]
Here's an link criticizing Bush's National Guard service which apparently
these people could easily discredit with all the "facts" that Hines and
Patterson have at hand concerning this subject.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
Of, course Hines and Patterson are going to prove that the allegations
stated in detail in this link are all wrong. I think a sworn affadavit would
have to carry some weight, and since they have the facts of this at their
disposal, I think we should all encourage them to do so.
"Dallas Patterson" <n...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:41250AD8...@fidalgo.net...
>
>
> Bill Case wrote:
>
> > "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:pR2Vc.67$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> >
> >>"The F-102 was an air superiority fighter made for WWIII. It didn't
> >>have the slightest air-to-ground capability and so would have been
> >>useless in Vietnam. It's role was for a general war in Europe. You
> >>can't play baseball with a tennis racquet." -the Troll
> >>----------------------------
> >>
> >>This is a point which those who say "Bush was a coward and wouldn't go
> >>to Vietnam" refuse to admit -- or to be educated on.
> >>
> >
> > Hines, I'm wondering whether you have any military knowledge.
> >
> > Did Bush get into an obsolete squadron for the very reason that it
wouldn't
> > be
> > deployed to VN? It's clear he used family connections to get into the
Guard
> > in the first place.
>
>
> The 111th FIS was not an obsolete squadron when Bush volunteered for
> military service with the squadron in 1968. The 111th squadron is still
> in service today. In fact, the 111th FIS was supplying its F-102 pilots
> to the USAF on six month tours of duty, with many of the 111th FIS F-102
> pilots flying F-102 aircraft on combat missions in Vietnam. The
> retirement of of the F-102 Delta Dagger as an obsolescent fighter was an
> event which was still another 4 to 7 years into the future.
>
> "It's [NOT] clear he used family connections to get into the Guard in
> the first place." Such allegations are fabricated lies. The facts and
> testimony of the officers with direct participation and authority in the
> events directly refute such false allegations. It makes no difference
> whether or not anyone expressed an interest in securing such an
> assignment for Bush, because it was unnecessary to do so and attempts to
> do so would have been ignored by the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and
> the Air National Guard Bureau (ANGB). Now, it may have served someone's
> purpose to allow a politician to believe he could influence such a
> decision, but the reality was that such political requests were
> contrary to regulations, very closely watched for violations, and
> disregarded when encountered. Political intervention was totally
> unnecessary, because the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group (FIG) (TANG)
> had 26 unfilled openings for officers. Some 5 or 6 of those 26 unfilled
> openings for officers were for F-102 pilots. There was no waiting list
> for pilots, so Bush needed no help from family or political friends to
> volunteer for one of the 5 to 6 open positions. In fact, Bush qualified
> for one of the 3 or 4 annual pilot training slots alotted to the 147th
> FIG by earning high scores on his qualification tests, including a 95
> percentile on the leadership test. The commanding officer of the 147th
> FIG, Colonel Staudt, said, "If somebody like that came along, you'd
> snatch them up. He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any
> difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
>
>
> >
> > How long do you think it takes to re-train from one fighter to another?
> >
>
>
> You demonstrate your colossal ignorance and prejudice by asking an
> irrelevant question. Meeting qualifications to fly the F-101/RF-101
> Voodoo which was slated to replace the F-102 in the 111th FIS/147th FIG
> required many months of training. But the more important and relevant
> issue is the time required to accumulate the extensive flight time and
> experience with the F-101/RF-101 required by the mission of the 111th
> FIS/147th FIG.
>
>
> > Do you think they release expensively trained pilots from the services
when
> > the aircraft they were initially trained on go out of service?
> >
>
>
> Yes, that is exactly what the USAF, USN, USMC, and USA does in many
> circumstances. In the period of 1972 to around 1975 or later, the
> airline pilots associations were screaming bloody murder and complaining
> to Congress and the DoD about the massive numbers of military pilots
> which were being suddenly discharged into the commercial airline
> industry. Pilots who paid for their own civil aeronautics training
> complained bitterly about not being able to get jobs in the airline
> industry, because the massive numbers of discharged military piklots
> received hiring preference and denied them jobs. Many universities,
> colleges, and other aeronautical training schools closed their training
> programs, scaled them back, and/or catered to foreign aeronautical
> students for who English was a Second Language (ESL); because the demand
> for students dropped sharply as the airline industry gave hiring
> preferences to discharged military pilots trained by the U.S. Government.
>
>
> > Navy and Marine helicopter pilots are both fixed wing and helo trained -
> > couldn't Dumbya have re-trained on a different model fixed wing? That
would
> > have been
> > easy in comparison.
>
>
> Certainly, the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and the USAF could
> theoretically have had pilots like Bush and many of his squadron mates
> re-trained on the F-101/RF-101 Voodoo, but the USAF and TANG did not
> want to do so for a great many reasons, with cost and low availablity of
> training classes being at the forefront.
>
> The 111th FIS/147th FIG was transformed from an operational ADC (Air
> Defense Command) unit to a training ADC unit on 1 January 1970. The
> pilot qualifications for a training unit was much greater than the pilot
> qualifications for operational units. Pilots with less than 1,000 flight
> hours in the F-102 could not serve as instructor pilots, so the
> instructor pilots slots had to be reserved for pilots who already had
> the required 1,000 hours in the F-102. Since it would require several
> years for young pilots like Bush and his young peers in the
> squadron/group to have an opportunity to accumulate another 400 hours of
> F-102 flight time required for such a minimum qualification, the USAF
> and TANG did not have enough available alert duty flight hours or
> allocated training slots for aircraft type conversion to give these
> younger pilots an opportunity to qualify as instructor pilots for the
> F-102 or the F-101/RF-101.
>
> Instead, the USAF and TANG recruited active duty F-102 and later
> F-101/RF-101 pilots with 1,000 or more hours in the aircraft and who
> were being discharged early from the active duty USAF because of the RIF
> (Reduction-In-Force). The recruitment of the discharged active duty
> pilots avoided the costs of type conversion training, provided the
> experience needed for instructor pilots, and provided career minded
> active duty pilots a place in the Air National Guard (ANG) and Air Force
> Reserves (AFR) to continue their careers in military aviation, albeit on
> a part-time basis. To make room in the ANG and the AFR for these
> instructor pilots as they were being discharged from the active duty Air
> Force, it was necessary to open up available positions in the units by
> encouraging the younger pilots with less than 1,000 hours of flight time
> to voluntarily accept an early discharge from the ANG/AFR or
> involuntarily discharging them in the RIF.
>
> So, the type conversion training was not provided for reasons of time
> and cost for the convenience of the service.
>
>
> >
> > Hines, I think you should think twice before trying make other people
look
> > bad - bullying doesn't work on a lot of people.
> >
>
> Such a statement is clearly a Case of the charcoal calling the stainless
> steel kettle black.
Dallas,
Upon reflection, it occurs to me that in the post above, you do seem to
present a lot of potentially decisive factual info. And, of course, you are
supported by the military expertise of Hines and "Righteous Dan".
Most of us have to rely on secondary sources and hope that we are getting
good facts and logic about these matters, and hope that we draw valid
balanced conclusions.
But you, Hines and "Righteous Dan", you seem to be in a different, more
"primary" position on matters requiring military knowledge, especially on
this rather important matter of George Bush's National Guard service . You
apparently have more info and insights than the rest of us that run contrary
to much of the journalism on the subject.
I would like to propose something that would combat what may be a lot of
distorted info, such as presented in the links I posted in this thread.
These go into some mostly negative detail regarding Bush's National Guard
service history. Apparently the details you have posted prove many or all of
these criticisms of Bush's service to be wrong.
In the interest of honesty in politics, why not develop the factual info you
present above into a clear refutation of any Bush wrong doings or evasion,
and present it within a sworn legal affidavit. Unlike most of us, you and
Hines, and "Righteous Dan" apparently have the knowledge to do something
like this. It could then be posted on the internet, promoted as an expert
testimony on the questions addressed, and the sworn nature of the factual
data and insights might do Bush a lot of good, and help improve this rather
murky process we are in.
Sincerely, Bill
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AhtVc.16$DO4...@eagle.america.net...
> Thanks.
>
> That's a remarkably clear, concise, direct answer.
>
> No Lies, Chuffing Or Dissembling...
>
> We need more of that sort of straight talk.
>
> Will the "Two Jags" moniker do him in?
>
> DSH
>
> "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:cg5cvt$psr$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> |
> | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | news:jy3Vc.71$M94....@eagle.america.net...
>
> | > Thank you.
> | >
> | > Does he have any Real Power?
> |
> | I would think he is the third most powerful figure behind the
> Chancellor
> | of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown.
> | But the Home Secretary, David Blunkett and Foreign Secretary, Jack
> Straw
> | might disagree.
> |
> | >
> | > Could he ever become P.M.?
> |
> | The Labour Party could choose him as PM if Blair resigned, Brown would
> | be favourite, but his Achilles heel would be his Scots constituency
> and
> | devolution of powers to the Scots Parliament.
> | The Blair camp has been briefing Tory newspapers for sometime that an
> MP
> | for a Scots constituency, can never again be PM.
> |
> | Jamie
> |
> | >
> |
> | > DSH
> | >
> | > "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> | > message news:cg2fph$rt9$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> | > |
> | > | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | > | news:QY2Vc.68$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> | >
> | > | > "bar-stewards in the Merchant Navy -nudge, nudge, wink, wink
> | > | know'who'I' mean?;"
> | > | >
> | > | > Who is this?
> | > | >
> | > | > DSH
> | > | >
> | > | > "Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> | > | > news:Rv%Uc.152$Yl...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net..
> | > |
> | > | Chuffing Two Jags, the chuffing deputy PM..
> | > |
> | > | "Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Prescott"
> | > |
> | >
> |
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article
> | > _id=314191&in_page_id=1770
> | > |
> | > | Jamie
>
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> A Lesson For YODA:
[.]
> They LIE -- Hippo.
I have lived through many a similar event. However emotive they may be to us
they better illustrate my contention that the folks on the left are myopic,
deluded/self-deluded, and imperfectly understand history and human nature,
not yours that they are congenital liars. -the Troll
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message > How are you guys coming on that " F102 facts
disprove Bush war shirking"
> affidavit? When do you think you will get it up on the net?
>
> [ for those interested, below is an exchange the "Re: Commodore Hine's
> Military Experience and knowledge"
> thread concerning using their vast military knowledge to address what they
> consider fabrications concerning President Bush's military service
record. ]
>
> Here's an link criticizing Bush's National Guard service which apparently
> these people could easily discredit with all the "facts" that Hines and
> Patterson have at hand concerning this subject.
> http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
C'mon, realchange.org? How about something even resembling an objective
source.
Like Patterson I have been close to the ANG and have a better idea how it
works. Squadrons usually carry dozens of pilots on strength because they
understand what one must do as a civilian has to take priority over the
Guard which is essentially a second job. Pilots may well not turn up for
many months for any of a thousand reasons and become non-current in the
process. All it takes is a check ride to become current again and making up
the missed drills which I know Bush did from the testimony of an ANG officer
in Alabama who remembers him being at the squadron HQ for several weeks
doing exactly that. One of my kids in an ANG squadron was remarkable because
he never went non-current, the only pilot in the squadron never to have done
so. The idea is to have a stable of pilots on a roster who can be brought up
to standards in a very short time in the event of war. -the Troll
Bill Case
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:paudnS0PFqs...@giganews.com...
>
> "Bill Case" wrote in message > How are you guys coming on that " F102
facts
> disprove Bush war shirking"
> > affidavit? When do you think you will get it up on the net?
> >
> > [ for those interested, below is an exchange the "Re: Commodore Hine's
> > Military Experience and knowledge"
> > thread concerning using their vast military knowledge to address what
they
> > consider fabrications concerning President Bush's military service
> record. ]
> >
> > Here's an link criticizing Bush's National Guard service which
apparently
> > these people could easily discredit with all the "facts" that Hines and
> > Patterson have at hand concerning this subject.
> > http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
>
> C'mon, realchange.org? How about something even resembling an objective
> source.
Hippo, that's the point.
There is a great deal of very credible appearing anti-Bush info there. If
it is untrue, and Patterson and Hines are certain it is and can furnish
factual detail (F102 facts etc) to refute it, by all means they should do an
affadavit, publish it and promote it and discredit "realchange" and other
sources. I don't like Bush, but I dislike slander / libel even more.
> Like Patterson I have been close to the ANG and have a better idea how it
> works. Squadrons usually carry dozens of pilots on strength because they
> understand what one must do as a civilian has to take priority over the
> Guard which is essentially a second job. Pilots may well not turn up for
> many months for any of a thousand reasons and become non-current in the
> process.
Hmmm, does DOD share that view? ;-)
Anyway, you could join Patterson and Hines and collaborate in generating a
detailed affadavit. All it takes is a *little* time with the factual info
you guys have, then swear to it, (free notary at your bank) and webpost it
as a legal document in refutation of anti-Bush info on websites x, y, z and
so on, and then get it promoted as such.
It would help your candidate and if you're correct about Bush's service, it
would help clean up the political process.
Bill
D. Spencer Hines
It's BOTH -- not EITHER/OR.
Ignorant AND Liars...often CARELESS LIARS.
You would insist they are all FAR more STUPID and IGNORANT than I do.
However, not ALL of them are congenital liars -- that's a special breed.
In the instant case, I've just pointed out that GANS is a congenital
liar. There is a plenitude of evidence proving that fact. Check the
Archives. I've caught him red-handed LYING on numerous occasions --
over SEVEN plus long years.
Please do not misquote me and misread me.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:F9GdnTE8Jdk...@giganews.com...
Paul J Gans
The nonsense level on both sides here exceeds the bounds
of propriety. The facts are clear. Bush chose NOT to
volunteer for active duty. There's no argument about that.
It is also clear that, for better or worse, Kerry did. There's
no argument about that either.
In truth, neither makes a bit of difference. Had the Republicans
not castigated Clinton over his lack of service the issue might
never have come up. It is a case of what goes around comes
around.
All the rest is posturing, spin, and attempts to buck and weave.
----- Paul J. Gans
Fred J. McCall
:All the rest is posturing, spin, and attempts to buck and weave.
Yes, and Kerry may as well stop doing it. I seriously doubt he's
going to get through to November without having to actually discuss
his actions SINCE 1968.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> > > http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
> >
> > C'mon, realchange.org? How about something even resembling an objective
> > source.
>
> Hippo, that's the point.
> There is a great deal of very credible appearing anti-Bush info there. If
> it is untrue, and Patterson and Hines are certain it is and can furnish
> factual detail (F102 facts etc) to refute it, by all means they should do
an
> affadavit, publish it and promote it and discredit "realchange" and other
> sources. I don't like Bush, but I dislike slander / libel even more.
I'm with you and hate it too. The thing is none of us knows for sure if any
of it is real or libel. All we do know is that under our law Bush has an
honorable discharge from the Air Force just as we know Kerry was awarded his
medals in Vietnam and his record of events accepted by the navy as true. The
rest is rumor, invention, perhaps some truth but impossible to prove either
way. It isn't honorable to attack anyone without proof and it certainly
isn't good for our system of government. We have plenty of information from
the lips of the candidates themselves to choose between them.
> > Like Patterson I have been close to the ANG and have a better idea how
it
> > works. Squadrons usually carry dozens of pilots on strength because they
> > understand what one must do as a civilian has to take priority over the
> > Guard which is essentially a second job. Pilots may well not turn up for
> > many months for any of a thousand reasons and become non-current in the
> > process.
>
> Hmmm, does DOD share that view? ;-)
>
> Anyway, you could join Patterson and Hines and collaborate in generating a
> detailed affadavit. All it takes is a *little* time with the factual info
> you guys have, then swear to it, (free notary at your bank) and webpost it
> as a legal document in refutation of anti-Bush info on websites x, y, z
and
> so on, and then get it promoted as such.
>
> It would help your candidate and if you're correct about Bush's service,
it
> would help clean up the political process.
None of us can do that since none of us were present for any of this. All I
can say is that much of what Bush is attacked for comes from not
understanding how the ANG works. It is complicated as hell I'll admit, but
makes sense given the mission. The only thing possibly correct on that site
that I can see is political intervention to get him in. A squadron commander
in my state got his son a spot in front of several men who had been in line
longer. Patterson thinks this stuff is checked but there isn't much more
suspicious than a father-son relationship. -the Troll
hippo
"Paul J Gans" wrote in message
> In alt.history.british hippo wrote:
> The nonsense level on both sides here exceeds the bounds
> of propriety. The facts are clear. Bush chose NOT to
> volunteer for active duty. There's no argument about that.
Yup.
> It is also clear that, for better or worse, Kerry did. There's
> no argument about that either.
Yes again.
> In truth, neither makes a bit of difference. Had the Republicans
> not castigated Clinton over his lack of service the issue might
> never have come up. It is a case of what goes around comes
> around.
>
> All the rest is posturing, spin, and attempts to buck and weave.
It sure the hell is and dangerous to boot. -the Troll
Dallas Patterson
Paul J Gans wrote:
No, there is very much an "argument about that." The Air National
Guard is an "Active Reserve" component of the U.S. Air Force, and is not
the Inactive Reserve. The Air Defense Command alert duty
fighter-interceptor sorties were loaded and armed for combat, and they
conducted each sortie as a combat mission. The Soviet bombers and
fighters they intercepted were also armed and ready for combat upon
command. The casualties suffered by the F-102 pilots from the more than
13 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours were just as real along the borders
of the United States as were for the 4 individual F-102 aircraft lost to
similar mishaps in Vietnam between 1962 and 1971. The casualties
suffered by the Air National Guard's F-102 pilots of Air Defense Command
were just as real during the Vietnam War as the casualties suffered by
the Army Air Force's and U.S. Navy's anti-submarine patrols in the
American Theater during the Second World War. The "active duty" combat
service of the Air National Guard's Air Defense Command
fighter-interceptors were usually part-time active duty in a combat
role, but it remained very much a relatively dangerous form of active
duty in the reserves for the borders of the home front.
> It is also clear that, for better or worse, Kerry did. There's
> no argument about that either.
>
Your comment is yet another blatant lie. If you want to pretend to
believe that George W. Bush did not "volunteer for active duty", then
Kerry also "chose NOT to volunteer for active duty" the same as George
W. Bush. George W. Bush volunteered to serve at least two years of
active duty in the U.S. Air Force to be followed by four years of Active
Reserve with Air Defense Command service in the Ready Reserve's Air
National Guard. Kerry also volunteered for the Ready Reserve's U.S.
Naval Reserves on inactive duty and at least three years of active duty
following Officer's Candidate School (OCS) to be followed by two years
of service in the Ready Reserve and one year in the inactive Standby
Reserve. Kerry volunteered to enlist in the U.S. Naval Reserve (USNR-R)
and NOT in the active duty U.S. Navy (USN).
> In truth, neither makes a bit of difference. Had the Republicans
> not castigated Clinton over his lack of service the issue might
> never have come up. It is a case of what goes around comes
> around.
>
Fine, if it is "a case of what goes around comes around", then Kerry
deserves everything he gets in criticism, because he started running for
elected office in the U.S. Congress on his Vietnam record no later than
1971. Kerry made military service a political issue in his elections
twenty years before the Republicans ever uttered a peep about Clinton's
undisputed draft dodging.
> All the rest is posturing, spin, and attempts to buck and weave.
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans
>
Which exactly describes what you are doing dishonestly with glee.
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Nope....
>
> It's BOTH -- not EITHER/OR.
>
> Ignorant AND Liars...often CARELESS LIARS.
>
> You would insist they are all FAR more STUPID and IGNORANT than I do.
>
> However, not ALL of them are congenital liars -- that's a special breed.
>
> In the instant case, I've just pointed out that GANS is a congenital
> liar. There is a plenitude of evidence proving that fact. Check the
> Archives. I've caught him red-handed LYING on numerous occasions --
> over SEVEN plus long years.
>
> Please do not misquote me and misread me.
Here is the exact quote to which I was responding, cut and pasted for
accuracy:
> | > A Lesson For YODA:
> | [.]
> | > They LIE -- Hippo.
-the Troll
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
Not true.
> All I can say is that much of what Bush is attacked for comes from
> not understanding how the ANG works. It is complicated as hell I'll
> admit, but makes sense given the mission. The only thing possibly
> correct on that site that I can see is political intervention to
> get him in. A squadron commander in my state got his son a spot in
> front of several men who had been in line longer. Patterson thinks
> this stuff is checked but there isn't much more suspicious than a
> father-son relationship. -the Troll
It's true that political intervention to secure an assignment in the
Army National Guard and Air National Guard used to be a reality, but the
same can be said of the active duty components of the armed services.
Whether or not the Air National Guard ever eliminated political
intervention in receiving assignments, I don't suppose there will ever
be a way to prove to everyone's satisfaction that such political
interventions have been eliminated. For whatever it's worth, however, at
least three of the command and staff officers of the 147th FIG have
testified that higher headquarters scrutinized and approved the
applications and the candidates' test scores to keep political
intervention from denying the best candidate the assignment. There has
also been a number of politicians asserting that they helped Bush to get
his assignment with the Air National Guard. If we assume all of these
witnesses believe that they are telling the truth, there is one possible
explanation which would reconcile their conflicting testimonies. If Bush
won the assignemnt on his own by having a better evaluation and
qualifications to fill one of the available openings, the Texas Air
National Guard could have satisfied the politicians' requests by simply
allowing the politicians to falsely believe their political influence
helped to get Bush the assignment. In any case, there is likely no way
we can ever know the truth, whatever it may be, as a certain fact.
It should also be noted there never would have been an Air National
Guard if it had not been for the political influence of the rich and
influential who raised the funds to organize the first of the Air
National Guard squadrons and sometimes purchase their first aircraft.
For example, Charles Lindbergh and other famous aviators were
responsible for helping to organize the 110th Fighter Squadron, which is
still located at Lambert Filed, St. Louis, Missouri.
[QUOTE]
The 35th Division Aviation section , Missouri National Guard was
formally organized on 23 June 1923 ,First Headquarters was located in
a filling station on Manchester Avenue. From there it was moved to a
small room over a grocery store on Olive Street Road In St Louis County
. Meetings were held at the Airport, then little more than a pasture,
there were no Airplanes and no uniforms for the Enlisted men . The
First flying Equipment was a Curtiss OX JN-4 "Jenny" which was
purchased by the Officers of the squadron and used for flight training
until early 1924 when Three Wartime JN-4's were received. The
planes were Housed in a Corrugated sheet metal hanger erected on the
field during the National air races in 1923 and later turned over to
the squadron. Additional aircraft and equipment were received
throughout 1924 and by the years end a well received training program
was in effect. Only eighteen months had elapsed since the unit was
formally organized. Major Bill Robertson was the first Commander
[UNQUOTE]
hippo
"Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
> hippo wrote:
> > None of us can do that since none of us were present for any of
> > this.
>
>
> Not true.
Yes true. You were not there, Hines was not there, and I was not there.
Right we can't know. Only those in the chain could know. I do know the Guard
needs to keep up good relations with the states in which they are based
which includes the politicians in those states. It's a great way to keep the
money flowing and obtain newer aircraft types before other ANG squadrons get
them. It's one reason my state got C17's and F16's early on. The rest of the
claims on that website look doubtful to me. Thanks for filling in some of
the blanks. -the Troll
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
> "Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
>
>
>>hippo wrote:
>>
>
>> > None of us can do that since none of us were present for any of
>> > this.
>>
>>
>>Not true.
>>
>
> Yes true. You were not there, Hines was not there, and I was not there.
Not true.
hippo
"Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
> Paul J Gans wrote:
Good point.
> > It is also clear that, for better or worse, Kerry did. There's
> > no argument about that either.
> >
>
>
> Your comment is yet another blatant lie. If you want to pretend to
> believe that George W. Bush did not "volunteer for active duty", then
> Kerry also "chose NOT to volunteer for active duty" the same as George
> W. Bush. George W. Bush volunteered to serve at least two years of
> active duty in the U.S. Air Force to be followed by four years of Active
> Reserve with Air Defense Command service in the Ready Reserve's Air
> National Guard. Kerry also volunteered for the Ready Reserve's U.S.
> Naval Reserves on inactive duty and at least three years of active duty
> following Officer's Candidate School (OCS) to be followed by two years
> of service in the Ready Reserve and one year in the inactive Standby
> Reserve. Kerry volunteered to enlist in the U.S. Naval Reserve (USNR-R)
> and NOT in the active duty U.S. Navy (USN).
I didn't know that either. Presumably enlisting and then volunteering for
OCS implies the intent to serve in the active component, or at least on
active duty, I would think. Do you know if Kerry volunteered for rivercraft
or was it just assigned to him as a line officer out of SWAS? -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
1. That quote says nothing about congenital liars.
2. Further, you've snipped all the context so it's impossible to see to
what my comment referred.
That's really quite duplicitous and wicked of you, Yoda.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:HsKdnbVjTO0...@giganews.com...
hippo
"Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
> hippo wrote:
> > Yes true. You were not there, Hines was not there, and I was not there.
>
>
>
> Not true.
That means you were in the TANG during the period and were a first hand
witness to these events? -the Troll
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Yes, they do lie.
>
> 1. That quote says nothing about congenital liars.
>
> 2. Further, you've snipped all the context so it's impossible to see to
> what my comment referred.
>
> That's really quite duplicitous and wicked of you, Yoda.
I'm not being duplicitous. Your story wasn't an example of lying. It was
about the liberal mindset which isn't the same thing. In order to lie one
must know that one is lying. That's what I have been saying about their
contention Bush lied about WMD. The liars are their media and political spin
doctors. From what I can see what the posters here do for the most part is
fall for this crap and uncritically regurgitate it. They don't create the
stuff themselves. -the Troll
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
Kerry's concurrent enlistment and application for OCS was an explicit
and not an implied expression of intent to serve on active duty for
training for a period of three years to make him qualified to serve as
an officer in the Ready Reserve of the U.S. Naval Reserve for at least
two years and the Standby Reserve for at least one year. In other words,
Kerry volunteered to be trained as an officer for service in the U.S.
Navy Reserve.
Bush's concurrent enlistment as an Airman Basic and application for
appointment as a fighter pilot was also an explicit expression of intent
to serve on active duty for training for a period of about two years to
make him qualified to serve as an officer and an F-102A
fighter-interceptor pilot in the U.S. Air Force Ready Reserve of the
Texas Air National Guard for another four years. In other words, Bush
volunteered to be trained as an officer for service in the U.S. Air
force Ready Reserve of the Texas Air National Guard.
No, Kerry attended the U.S. Naval Officer Candidate School (OCS),
Newport, Rhode island and not the Surface Warfare Officers School
(SWAS), Newport, Rhode Island. Kerry requested an assignment to the PCF
Swift boats while still in OCS, citing his existing experience in
"sailing-ocean racing; private pilot's license;...." Kerry often
described to listeners his desire to emulate John F. Kenndy's naval
service and heroism while serving with the P.T. Boats of the Second
World War as preparation for his future political career. Kerry was
first assigned to advanced training before receiving his requested
assignment to PCF Swift boat duty.
Ensign Kerry (USNR-R) was assigned to 10 weeks of ACDU (Active Duty),
albeit for training, aboard the USS GRIDLEY (DLG-21) for the purpose of
attending the Damage Control Afloat Course as a part of his advanced
training as a U.S. Navy Reserve officer. Likewise, 2LT Bush was
assigned to 52 weeks of ACDUTRA (Active Duty for Training) at Moody AFB
and 7 months of ACDUTRA (Active Duty for Training) combat flight
training at Ellington ANGB as a part of his training as a U.S. Air Force
Ready Reserve F-102A fighter-interceptor pilot in the Texas Air National
Guard.
Following the completion of his training aboard the USS GRIDLEY
(DLG-21), Kerry was granted a Change of Duty to 9 weeks of temporary
duty for training as OIC [Officer-In-Charge] of a PCF [Patrol Craft
(Fast)] at Naval Amphibious Base, Coronado, California. Upon completion
of training as OIC PCF, Kerry was assigned temporary duty with Coastal
Squadron One, Cam Ranh Bay, Republic of Vietnam, "Unit to which ordered
will operate in an overseas area a contemplated continuous period of one
(1) year or more."
Following the completion of his advanced combat flgiht training at
Ellington ANGB, Bush was assigned to Ready Reserve combat alert duty
flying combat sorties for the Air Defense Command under the control of
NORAD.
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
You didn't have to be in the TANG to be "a first hand witness to [some
of] these events."
hippo
That's true and I'll take your word for it. -the Troll
Fred J. McCall
:I didn't know that either. Presumably enlisting and then volunteering for
:OCS implies the intent to serve in the active component, or at least on
:active duty, I would think. Do you know if Kerry volunteered for rivercraft
:or was it just assigned to him as a line officer out of SWAS? -the Troll
He volunteered for it, but they weren't rivercraft when he did it.
I suspect he thought it would be more 'fun' to be zooming up and down
the coast in charge of his own little boat than it was to be First
Lieutenant on a DLG. Then after he got into them they switched them
from coastal patrol to river patrol.
--
"It's over now, or so they say.
But sometimes it don't work out that way.
And you're never the same when you've been under fire."
-- Huey Lewis and the News "Walking On A Thin Line"
D. Spencer Hines
Do you think Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Al Sharpton and Ted Kennedy
have lied, as that article noted -- or do bears not sleep in the forest?
You still insist Gans has not lied?
Boy, are you naive.
Best,
DSH
Bill Case
>
> "Bill Case" wrote in message
>
> > "hippo" wrote in message
>
>
> > > > http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
> > >
> > > C'mon, realchange.org? How about something even resembling an
objective
> > > source.
> >
> > Hippo, that's the point.
> > There is a great deal of very credible appearing anti-Bush info there.
If
> > it is untrue, and Patterson and Hines are certain it is and can furnish
> > factual detail (F102 facts etc) to refute it, by all means they should
do
> an
> > affadavit, publish it and promote it and discredit "realchange" and
other
> > sources. I don't like Bush, but I dislike slander / libel even more.
>
> I'm with you and hate it too. The thing is none of us knows for sure if
any
> of it is real or libel.
No, I disagree.
Most of us post what's basically non-primary facts and logic about events
and questions.
Dallas Patterson posted a great deal of PRIMARY detailed factual info about
F102s and the ANG that he says decisively refutes the wrongdoing or shirking
charges that much of the journalism around charges Bush with.
Hines agreed with it, and since he's a military expert too, it's logical he
should join with Dallas in exposing this apparent mis-information about
Bush, and taking the responisble people to task.
This detailed, factual, specific info should arranged in a legal affidavit
and used against the libelous websites and other journalists. It wouldn't be
hard to do - and would cost nothing and would apparently help Bush, and
clean up the process.
I think we should all, irregardless of our political leanings, join in
insisting these two military experts turn their superior knowledge to the
task of clean honest politics.
I certainly intend to.
Few of us ever get a chance to make a good contribution like this, and they
should turn to it as a PATRIOTIC DUTY - since they have command of this
primary, specific, factual, decisive information.
Bill
Bill Case
Dallas, you're being too modest.
We all know you posted a great deal of PRIMARY detailed info regarding this
matter that you said proves Bush innocent of what these websites allege
against him.
When are we going to see that Hines/ Patterson affidavit of expert
testimony? It will help us all.
Neither of you should allow modesty to prevent you from doing your duty in
this matter.
Bill Case
God, that seals it.
You and Hines can be famous and have a wonderful role to play in this big
oncoming election.
Bill
hippo
"Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
That's explicit enough, thanks again. I've one more if you don't mind. How
many other TANG squadrons were there at this period from which to
choose? -the Troll
Bill Case
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cg6d7c$2dt$3...@reader1.panix.com...
I very much disagree.
Dallas Patterson put forth a set of information in two posts, that is of a
primary factual nature. Mr. Hines, a military expert, agreed with it.
This primary expert information apparently disproves some widespread
allegations of wrong doing on the part of the current President of the
United States, as put forth in some websites that I referenced, and that
show up in other journalistic sources.
Regardless of political leanings, any patriotic citizen would want this
decisive info specified, legally attested to, and promoted in a way to
contribute to cleaning up this murky pre-election process.
These two experts need to get to work and do their DUTY.
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> > I'm with you and hate it too. The thing is none of us knows for sure if
I wish you were right. Kerry's people seem to be proceeding against the
swift boat nay-sayers but I doubt very much if it will work. If it ever gets
to court it will be too late for the election and a he says/she says
situation. That's the problem with clever propaganda. Both candidates can
stay above the fray with their rhetoric leaving the political hacks to do
the dirty work under the radar. All propaganda has to do is change the
perception of the electorate for a short time. It can claim almost anything,
and has nothing to do with truth, only winning. -the Troll
Bill Case
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3upei05npobttg8qj...@4ax.com...
> "hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote:
> :I didn't know that either. Presumably enlisting and then volunteering for
> :OCS implies the intent to serve in the active component, or at least on
> :active duty, I would think. Do you know if Kerry volunteered for
rivercraft
> :or was it just assigned to him as a line officer out of SWAS? -the Troll
>
> He volunteered for it, but they weren't rivercraft when he did it.
This is bogus information.
There were riverboat activities long before Kerry volunteered for it.
Someone in this NG previously alluded to the boats going so far upstream
during Tet (1/68) that the river banks narrowed to only a feet apart.
The boats were used for insertions of SEALS and Army SF, probably on both
sides of the border.
Bill Case
affidavit? When do you think you will get it up on the net?
[ for those interested, below is an exchange the "Re: Commodore Hine's
Military Experience and knowledge"
thread concerning using their vast military knowledge to address what they
consider fabrications concerning President Bush's military service record. ]
Here's an link criticizing Bush's National Guard service which apparently
these people could easily discredit with all the "facts" that Hines and
Patterson have at hand concerning this subject.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
Of, course Hines and Patterson are going to prove that the allegations
stated in detail in this link are all wrong. I think a sworn affadavit would
have to carry some weight, and since they have the facts of this at their
disposal, I think we should all encourage them to do so.
"Dallas Patterson" <n...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:41250AD8...@fidalgo.net...
>
>
> Bill Case wrote:
>
> > "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:pR2Vc.67$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> >
> >>"The F-102 was an air superiority fighter made for WWIII. It didn't
> >>have the slightest air-to-ground capability and so would have been
> >>useless in Vietnam. It's role was for a general war in Europe. You
> >>can't play baseball with a tennis racquet." -the Troll
> >>----------------------------
> >>
> >>This is a point which those who say "Bush was a coward and wouldn't go
> >>to Vietnam" refuse to admit -- or to be educated on.
> >>
> >
> > Hines, I'm wondering whether you have any military knowledge.
> >
> > Did Bush get into an obsolete squadron for the very reason that it
wouldn't
> > be
> > deployed to VN? It's clear he used family connections to get into the
Guard
> > in the first place.
>
>
> The 111th FIS was not an obsolete squadron when Bush volunteered for
> military service with the squadron in 1968. The 111th squadron is still
> in service today. In fact, the 111th FIS was supplying its F-102 pilots
> to the USAF on six month tours of duty, with many of the 111th FIS F-102
> pilots flying F-102 aircraft on combat missions in Vietnam. The
> retirement of of the F-102 Delta Dagger as an obsolescent fighter was an
> event which was still another 4 to 7 years into the future.
>
> "It's [NOT] clear he used family connections to get into the Guard in
> the first place." Such allegations are fabricated lies. The facts and
> testimony of the officers with direct participation and authority in the
> events directly refute such false allegations. It makes no difference
> whether or not anyone expressed an interest in securing such an
> assignment for Bush, because it was unnecessary to do so and attempts to
> do so would have been ignored by the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and
> the Air National Guard Bureau (ANGB). Now, it may have served someone's
> purpose to allow a politician to believe he could influence such a
> decision, but the reality was that such political requests were
> contrary to regulations, very closely watched for violations, and
> disregarded when encountered. Political intervention was totally
> unnecessary, because the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group (FIG) (TANG)
> had 26 unfilled openings for officers. Some 5 or 6 of those 26 unfilled
> openings for officers were for F-102 pilots. There was no waiting list
> for pilots, so Bush needed no help from family or political friends to
> volunteer for one of the 5 to 6 open positions. In fact, Bush qualified
> for one of the 3 or 4 annual pilot training slots alotted to the 147th
> FIG by earning high scores on his qualification tests, including a 95
> percentile on the leadership test. The commanding officer of the 147th
> FIG, Colonel Staudt, said, "If somebody like that came along, you'd
> snatch them up. He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any
> difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
>
>
> >
> > How long do you think it takes to re-train from one fighter to another?
> >
>
>
> You demonstrate your colossal ignorance and prejudice by asking an
> irrelevant question. Meeting qualifications to fly the F-101/RF-101
> Voodoo which was slated to replace the F-102 in the 111th FIS/147th FIG
> required many months of training. But the more important and relevant
> issue is the time required to accumulate the extensive flight time and
> experience with the F-101/RF-101 required by the mission of the 111th
> FIS/147th FIG.
>
>
> > Do you think they release expensively trained pilots from the services
when
> > the aircraft they were initially trained on go out of service?
> >
>
>
> Yes, that is exactly what the USAF, USN, USMC, and USA does in many
> circumstances. In the period of 1972 to around 1975 or later, the
> airline pilots associations were screaming bloody murder and complaining
> to Congress and the DoD about the massive numbers of military pilots
> which were being suddenly discharged into the commercial airline
> industry. Pilots who paid for their own civil aeronautics training
> complained bitterly about not being able to get jobs in the airline
> industry, because the massive numbers of discharged military piklots
> received hiring preference and denied them jobs. Many universities,
> colleges, and other aeronautical training schools closed their training
> programs, scaled them back, and/or catered to foreign aeronautical
> students for who English was a Second Language (ESL); because the demand
> for students dropped sharply as the airline industry gave hiring
> preferences to discharged military pilots trained by the U.S. Government.
>
>
> > Navy and Marine helicopter pilots are both fixed wing and helo trained -
> > couldn't Dumbya have re-trained on a different model fixed wing? That
would
> > have been
> > easy in comparison.
>
>
> Certainly, the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and the USAF could
> theoretically have had pilots like Bush and many of his squadron mates
> re-trained on the F-101/RF-101 Voodoo, but the USAF and TANG did not
> want to do so for a great many reasons, with cost and low availablity of
> training classes being at the forefront.
>
> The 111th FIS/147th FIG was transformed from an operational ADC (Air
> Defense Command) unit to a training ADC unit on 1 January 1970. The
> pilot qualifications for a training unit was much greater than the pilot
> qualifications for operational units. Pilots with less than 1,000 flight
> hours in the F-102 could not serve as instructor pilots, so the
> instructor pilots slots had to be reserved for pilots who already had
> the required 1,000 hours in the F-102. Since it would require several
> years for young pilots like Bush and his young peers in the
> squadron/group to have an opportunity to accumulate another 400 hours of
> F-102 flight time required for such a minimum qualification, the USAF
> and TANG did not have enough available alert duty flight hours or
> allocated training slots for aircraft type conversion to give these
> younger pilots an opportunity to qualify as instructor pilots for the
> F-102 or the F-101/RF-101.
>
> Instead, the USAF and TANG recruited active duty F-102 and later
> F-101/RF-101 pilots with 1,000 or more hours in the aircraft and who
> were being discharged early from the active duty USAF because of the RIF
> (Reduction-In-Force). The recruitment of the discharged active duty
> pilots avoided the costs of type conversion training, provided the
> experience needed for instructor pilots, and provided career minded
> active duty pilots a place in the Air National Guard (ANG) and Air Force
> Reserves (AFR) to continue their careers in military aviation, albeit on
> a part-time basis. To make room in the ANG and the AFR for these
> instructor pilots as they were being discharged from the active duty Air
> Force, it was necessary to open up available positions in the units by
> encouraging the younger pilots with less than 1,000 hours of flight time
> to voluntarily accept an early discharge from the ANG/AFR or
> involuntarily discharging them in the RIF.
>
> So, the type conversion training was not provided for reasons of time
> and cost for the convenience of the service.
>
>
> >
> > Hines, I think you should think twice before trying make other people
look
> > bad - bullying doesn't work on a lot of people.
> >
>
> Such a statement is clearly a Case of the charcoal calling the stainless
> steel kettle black.
Dallas,
Upon reflection, it occurs to me that in the post above, you do seem to
present a lot of potentially decisive factual info. And, of course, you are
supported by the military expertise of Hines and "Righteous Dan".
Most of us have to rely on secondary sources and hope that we are getting
good facts and logic about these matters, and hope that we draw valid
balanced conclusions.
But you, Hines and "Righteous Dan", you seem to be in a different, more
"primary" position on matters requiring military knowledge, especially on
this rather important matter of George Bush's National Guard service . You
apparently have more info and insights than the rest of us that run contrary
to much of the journalism on the subject.
I would like to propose something that would combat what may be a lot of
distorted info, such as presented in the links I posted in this thread.
These go into some mostly negative detail regarding Bush's National Guard
service history. Apparently the details you have posted prove many or all of
these criticisms of Bush's service to be wrong.
In the interest of honesty in politics, why not develop the factual info you
present above into a clear refutation of any Bush wrong doings or evasion,
and present it within a sworn legal affidavit. Unlike most of us, you and
Hines, and "Righteous Dan" apparently have the knowledge to do something
like this. It could then be posted on the internet, promoted as an expert
testimony on the questions addressed, and the sworn nature of the factual
data and insights might do Bush a lot of good, and help improve this rather
murky process we are in.
Sincerely, Bill
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AhtVc.16$DO4...@eagle.america.net...
> Thanks.
>
> That's a remarkably clear, concise, direct answer.
>
> No Lies, Chuffing Or Dissembling...
>
> We need more of that sort of straight talk.
>
> Will the "Two Jags" moniker do him in?
>
> DSH
>
> "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:cg5cvt$psr$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> |
> | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | news:jy3Vc.71$M94....@eagle.america.net...
>
> | > Thank you.
> | >
> | > Does he have any Real Power?
> |
> | I would think he is the third most powerful figure behind the
> Chancellor
> | of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown.
> | But the Home Secretary, David Blunkett and Foreign Secretary, Jack
> Straw
> | might disagree.
> |
> | >
> | > Could he ever become P.M.?
> |
> | The Labour Party could choose him as PM if Blair resigned, Brown would
> | be favourite, but his Achilles heel would be his Scots constituency
> and
> | devolution of powers to the Scots Parliament.
> | The Blair camp has been briefing Tory newspapers for sometime that an
> MP
> | for a Scots constituency, can never again be PM.
> |
> | Jamie
> |
> | >
> |
> | > DSH
> | >
> | > "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> | > message news:cg2fph$rt9$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> | > |
> | > | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | > | news:QY2Vc.68$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> | >
> | > | > "bar-stewards in the Merchant Navy -nudge, nudge, wink, wink
> | > | know'who'I' mean?;"
> | > | >
> | > | > Who is this?
> | > | >
> | > | > DSH
> | > | >
> | > | > "Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> | > | > news:Rv%Uc.152$Yl...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net..
> | > |
> | > | Chuffing Two Jags, the chuffing deputy PM..
> | > |
> | > | "Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Prescott"
> | > |
> | >
> |
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article
> | > _id=314191&in_page_id=1770
> | > |
> | > | Jamie
>
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Dear Yoda,
The Clintons, Sharpton, and Kennedy are where the lies are created. Paul
just passes them on uncritically as the truth because he foolishly believes
the leaders of his party. I don't believe much out of the RNC either and why
I don't read their crap. It is every bit as much in the lie making business
as the DNC. -the Troll
Doug McDonald
AS far as Bush's Vietnam record, COMPARED TO KERRY'S,
we need ask only one question:
How often did Bush stridently and publicly root for the
other side, and actively demand that they be allowed to win?
The answer is he didn't do so, and Kerry did. Because the
other side won, millions of people lived, at least for
a while (i.e. before they died, often at the hands of the
people KErry rooted for), under brutal Communist regimes that
were and maybe still are more repressive than Iraq.
That's all anyone needs to know about Kerry. End of story.
He is not qualified to be President.
Doug McDonald
Dallas Patterson
Fred J. McCall wrote:
> "hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote:
> :I didn't know that either. Presumably enlisting and then volunteering for
> :OCS implies the intent to serve in the active component, or at least on
> :active duty, I would think. Do you know if Kerry volunteered for rivercraft
> :or was it just assigned to him as a line officer out of SWAS? -the Troll
>
> He volunteered for it, but they weren't rivercraft when he did it.
>
> I suspect he thought it would be more 'fun' to be zooming up and down
> the coast in charge of his own little boat than it was to be First
> Lieutenant on a DLG. Then after he got into them they switched them
> from coastal patrol to river patrol.
>
>
Kerry requested a duty assignment with the PCF Swift boats while he was
in OCS at Newport, Rhode Island and before he received his temporary
Damage Control Course ten week training assignment aboard the USS
GRIDLEY (DLG-21). His requested duty preferences at OCS were "SC, PHIB,
CA", with an express request for Swift boats.
George Hein
his father was head of CIA - what if GWB were captured and used in
blackmail?
You might remember that AlGore, son of a senator, had guards around him
while on tour in Vietnam (Korea?) with his typewriter.
Bill Case
You may be right, because it Kerry's case it involves recollections and
opinions with some written material that could be considered semi-factual.
However, in the case of what Dallas wrote, and Hines agreed about, the
anti-Bush refutation information is of a detailed, factual, primary nature -
apparently irrefutable as put forth in two posts.
Therefore, I wish you would join me in insisting these two put their
military expertise into a legal affidavit that can be used to go against
these anti-Bush journalists and websites so we can help clean up this
process as much as possible.
"Times a wasting". Let's all of us insist that the modesty of these two
military experts not stand in the way of bettering the political process.
Bill Case
"Doug McDonald" <mcdo...@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cg7vsu$mhg$1...@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
>
> AS far as Bush's Vietnam record, COMPARED TO KERRY'S,
> we need ask only one question:
>
> How often did Bush stridently and publicly root for the
> other side, and actively demand that they be allowed to win?
Neither candidate did any of that.
Bill Case
"George Hein" <zweistein...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:LCLVc.2989$Nk4.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Irrelevant.
No senior US official of Bush senior's nature would submit to blackmail.
Senior Bush volunteered and served in combat - he had character which served
the US well in WW2 and then later in 1990 in the way he created alliances
and executed a war in a region critical to the world economy.
Didn't President Roosevelt have relatives at the Normandy landings?
McCain's father was a senior admiral during VN.
I'm sure there are numerous other examples.
Dallas Patterson
Bill Case wrote:
Almost everything I have written about has also appeared in one or more
places on the Internet for years. This is true of everything from the
dangers of piloting the F-102 Delta Dagger and the F-101 Voodoo pilot
replacements to the AFRPC paperwork mill and indignities suffered at the
hands of the paper shufflers. People like Col. Staudt, Maj. Calhoun,
Col. Turnipseed, and many others who had direct participation in the
events and know the truth of what happened have had their actions,
motives, and statements maligned, misrepresented, and excoriated. If
their testimonies are insufficient, nothing I could testify to could
have any value whatsoever. What I can do, however, is attempt to explain
the already available evidence as best I can while using my own
experience to provide insights to the meanings of the evidence. Still,
there is nothing to keep the critics from continuing their refusal to do
the simple math which for so many years now has stood mute witness to
the fact 1LT Bush was ineligible to serve as an F-102 instructor pilot
or be re-trained as an F-101F pilot as required to continue flying for
the remaining period of his military service obligation.
Bill Case
All the more reason for you and Hines to get it into a legal affidavit form,
backed by your and Hines military experience and expertise, attesting to its
factuality and using it to point by point refute anti-Bush libels.
Your presentation of this primary factual in a legal affidavit could wind up
helping Bush a lot, and in teaching journalists to be careful and stick to
the truth.
I'm sure Hines will be eager to support Bush in this way, and to strike a
blow for truth with his expert testimony.
Bill
Michael W Cook
<ga...@panix.com> wrote:
> The nonsense level on both sides here exceeds the bounds
> of propriety. The facts are clear. Bush chose NOT to
> volunteer for active duty. There's no argument about that.
>
> It is also clear that, for better or worse, Kerry did. There's
> no argument about that either.
>
> In truth, neither makes a bit of difference. Had the Republicans
> not castigated Clinton over his lack of service the issue might
> never have come up. It is a case of what goes around comes
> around.
>
> All the rest is posturing, spin, and attempts to buck and weave.
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans
Getting into the National Guard for Bush was a way out of going to Vietnam.
There is absolutely no doubt about that.
With just twelve days to go before Bush became subject to the draft, he
applied for the Texas National Guard (TNG). The problem Dubya faced was that
about 100,000 other would-be draft dodgers were in the queue ahead of him.
However, to get into the TNG (the safest unit in the US military) Dubya had
to take a test in which he only scored 25 out of a possible 100, one point
above being too dumb to fly - but that wasn't going to stop Dubya getting a
plum cockpit position, his Daddy and his friends saw to that.
The TNG is often referred to as the 'Champagne Unit' of the US Military,
because a great majority of the personnel were just like Dubya, children of
America's elite who were avoiding the draft. This is how Bush managed to get
the cushy job of defending Houston and Texas from the Viet-Cong, except it
appears he never attended that job as required.
Former Texas Air Guard Commander, retired Lt. Col Bill Burkett says Dubya:
"Got special treatment in the National Guard in almost every way."
"He came into the National Guard as a special favour from the Lt Governor's
office. Then when there was a waiting list he was put at the top of the
list. He was given the opportunity to have the US Government spend $1
million dollars on teaching him to fly - that's pretty special treatment.
"But if you've got an aptitude score of 25, and you have people waiting on
the list with a far better score than you, but you automatically get
elevated to No 1 on that list, it would tell you he got very special
treatment.
"Did he join the National Guard to get out of going to Vietnam - sure he
did."
Yet Bush and his staff continue to maintain that he earned his honourable
discharge from the TNG and met his military responsibilities after he was
suspended from flying.
From May to November 1972, George W. Bush was living in Alabama working on
US senate campaign of Winton Blount and was required to attend drills
with the Air National Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. However, there is
no record that he attended any drills whatsoever. Additionally, General
William Turnipseed, who was commander of the unit at that time, has stated
in interviews that he never saw Bush report for duty.
On September 5, 1972, Bush had requested permission to perform duty for
September, October, and November at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in
Montgomery. Permission was granted and Bush was ordered to report to
General William Turnipseed. In interviews, Turnipseed, and his
administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, have both stated that
they had no memory of Bush ever reporting.
Seven months later, at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, Bush's two
superior officers were unable to complete his annual evaluation covering the
year from May 1 1972 to April 30 1973 because, "Lt. Bush has not been
observed at this unit during the period of this report."
Both superior officers, who are now dead, and also Ellington's top personnel
officer at the time, mistakenly concluded that Bush served his final year of
service in Alabama. But we now know that Bush returned to live in Texas
after the senatorial election in November 1972 and there is no record
whatsoever of any attendance or any duty performed.
Meanwhile, John Kerry is getting medals for bravery pinned on his chest for
his service in Vietnam.
I know who I would consider the more honourable man.
MWC
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
I know of at least one other TANG squadron flying fighters in 1968 to
1974. The 182nd FIS, San Antonio, Texas, was flying the F-102A Delta
Dagger, but in 1968 they temporarily converted back to the F-84F for two
years, until they were again converted in 1970 to the F-100D Super Sabre
(Hun) until 1978.
The 181st FIS, Dallas, Texas, flew the F-84 until they were converted to
an air refueling wing with the K-97 a few years before Bush's enlistment
in Houston with the 111th FIS.
Although I can't swear to it yet, I suspect the 111th FIS (F-102A) was
about the only way a citizen in Texas could secure a guaranteed
assignment in 1968 as a fighter pilot with a unit known to be sending
fighter pilots to Vietnam. We have to remember that volunteers in the
USAF, USN, USMC, and USA were never guaranteed assignments as fighter
pilots. The very great majority of volunteer pilots ended up as
helicopter pilots and transport pilots. So, the chances of securing an
assignment as a fighter pilot without being a graduate of the Air Force
Academy, Annapolis, West Point, etc. were minimal. The service
determined what type of aircraft you were going to pilot AFTER you
signed your life away on the bottomline. An Air Force Reserve squadron
with fighter aircraft may have been an alternative route to Vietnam as a
fighter pilot, but I'm not acquainted with their order of battle for
that period of time.
By the time 1LT Bush needed to find an F-102 billet in another squadron
in 1972, the 182nd FIS was flying the F-100D Supre Sabre and not the
F-102A, for which they already had too many pilots they too needed to
separate or re-train.
The 111th FIS, 162nd FIS, 163rd FIS, and all other F-102A squadrons in
the USAF and ANG were going through the same pilot staffing problems as
the F-102A was being retired from service in the same time period.
Bill Case
OK, it sounds like you're working on this affidavit stuff. Has Hines
reported for duty yet?
Dallas Patterson
Bill Case wrote:
Aerospaceweb had a Web page which covered many of the same issues, but
Kerry's anti-Bush supporters caused so much havoc on the Website's
servers, Aerospaceweb felt it was necessary to close public access to
their Website. You can still access the Web page by visiting the cached
version on Yahoo! Try the following URL or search on the terms "F-102"
"Vietnam" "Bush".
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> > I wish you were right. Kerry's people seem to be proceeding against the
> > swift boat nay-sayers but I doubt very much if it will work.
>
> You may be right, because it Kerry's case it involves recollections and
> opinions with some written material that could be considered semi-factual.
>
> However, in the case of what Dallas wrote, and Hines agreed about, the
> anti-Bush refutation information is of a detailed, factual, primary
nature -
> apparently irrefutable as put forth in two posts.
> Therefore, I wish you would join me in insisting these two put their
> military expertise into a legal affidavit that can be used to go against
> these anti-Bush journalists and websites so we can help clean up this
> process as much as possible.
>
> "Times a wasting". Let's all of us insist that the modesty of these two
> military experts not stand in the way of bettering the political process.
Much of it has been refuted by witnesses but not, apparently, gathered in
one place, though I'll admit I haven't looked on the net for it. I saw an
interview on the tube of an ANG officer who verified Bush had made up his
missed drills by doing duty at his headquarters several weeks straight and a
gal he may or may not have been seeing who verified the same thing (the
relationship wasn't made clear). Neither had had any connection with Bush
since. Like the swift boat debate I doubt that either would be accepted by
the other side no matter the legal format. I admire your attitude and only
wish there were others who could smell the crap. -the Troll
IBM
[snip]
> Kerry requested a duty assignment with the PCF Swift boats while he
> was in OCS at Newport, Rhode Island and before he received his
> temporary Damage Control Course ten week training assignment aboard
> the USS GRIDLEY (DLG-21). His requested duty preferences at OCS were
> "SC, PHIB, CA", with an express request for Swift boats.
What?
He didn't request "Vietnam, Vietnam, Vietnam"?
What kind of coward is he?
Apparently his Gridley shipmates had mixed feelings about him.
Competent enough but with a bunch of character flaws.
IBM
_______________________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
D. Spencer Hines
So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
and can't separate them from the truth.
You hold he is that uncritical and unable to separate truth from error.
He is just a conveyor belt for falsehoods and twaddle.
Wasn't he trained in the Scientific Method?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:nMSdnRNhJsG...@giganews.com...
Bill Case
>
>>
> Aerospaceweb had a Web page which covered many of the same issues, but
> Kerry's anti-Bush supporters caused so much havoc on the Website's
> servers, Aerospaceweb felt it was necessary to close public access to
> their Website. You can still access the Web page by visiting the cached
> version on Yahoo! Try the following URL or search on the terms "F-102"
> "Vietnam" "Bush".
Come on Dallas,
You and Hines have the knowledge to do this in a much more convincing way.
Look at the factual detail you have posted in the groups.
Attesting to it legally would carry weight. You guys are the experts with
the primary data - you have said as much.
Don't get weak in the knees. Stand up for your candidate. Working together,
it could be done in a day or two, and attested to for free at your
respective banks. I could assist in generating a webpage, if you like, no
problem
Has Hines reported in for duty on this yet ? I imagine he's gung ho, right?
Bill
Bill Case
Hippo,
People pay attention to sworn affadavits. Especially when they are given in
a direct specific refutation of something a professional journalist has
written. For journalists, that can be a career ender.
Hines and Dallas, with their military expertise, have it in their power to
really do something here, and should urged to do so.
Roger R.
Kerry's first purple heart
http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/ispol/109265583079530.xml?ispol
"We were on about a 14-foot boat with an outboard motor. We started out,
taking a guess, around 10 p.m. We were sup posed to sneak up and check
sampans," said Pat Runyon, a 58-year-old grandfather from Eaton, a small
southwestern Ohio town near the Indiana border.
Runyon, an enlisted man who served on Swift boats in Vietnam, was not a
regular member of Kerry's crew.
Once in place on the river, the three U.S. sailors paddled and drifted.
Covered by the darkness, they hid to stop sampans, small vessels common in
Southeast Asia. Guerillas used the sampans to smuggle weapons in the Mekong
River Delta.
Runyon said Kerry was wounded after one vessel tried to avoid an inspection.
"Lt. Kerry said, 'I'm going to pop a flare, and when I do, I want that
engine started,' " Runyon said. But the outboard would not crank. Meanwhile,
the sampan's crew steered it to the riverbank, and people started running on
the shore. Runyon said shooting broke out.
Somehow, Kerry's weapon stopped firing. Runyon thinks he ran out of
ammunition. He said Kerry bent down to pick up another gun and got hit in
the arm.
"It wasn't a serious wound," Runyon said, and Kerry was able to start
shooting again. When the firefight was over, Runyon said Kerry told him all
he felt was a "burning sensation."
Runyon said he remembers the incident clearly because it was the first time
he had been in combat. "I hadn't seen any kind of action or anything," he
said.
Runyon said that firefight with Kerry is his brush with fame.
"I saw a nice, quiet guy who knew he was in command and didn't flaunt it. He
could make a decision, and he made the right one because we got out of there
alive. That's all I can tell you."
Kerry's Silver star:
Of the other two Swift Boat commanders who participated in the attack, one,
Donald Droz, is dead, but the other, it turns out, is William Rood, a metro
desk editor with the Chicago Tribune. In Sunday's paper he tells the story
of what happened the day Kerry won his medal, explaining that Viet Cong
ambushes were a "virtual certainty" on river operations but that Kerry had
come up with a new idea about how to handle them:
Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked
to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did
to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a
clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it,
focusing the boats' twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and
beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
....It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn
maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember
seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn't fired as two
men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member
of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch-a thatched
hut-maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site....Not long after that, Kerry
returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch.
He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to
our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O'Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry's Vietnam
service, describes the man Kerry chased as a "teenager" in a "loincloth." I
have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both [Jerry]
Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the
VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the "lone" attacker at that site, as O'Neill
suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree
line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite
riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Thre should be no doubt now that O'Niell and his people are serial liars
with an axe to grind.
Then of course there are Roy Hoffman, George Elliott, and Adrian Lonsdale,
who used to say nice things about Kerry and have suddenly changed their
minds; Dr. Louis Letson's trick memory about who he treated and who he
didn't; Larry Thurlow's amnesia about his own Bronze Star citation; Jerome
Corsi's bigoted outbursts on right wing websites; and the creepy
conservative network funding the whole operation.
The New York Times does a pretty good job of deconstructing the lies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?hp
The clear ties to the Bush campaign are laid out by the NY Times here:
javascript:pop_me_up2('/imagepages/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820_SWI
FT_GRAPH.html','8741121','width=750,height=560,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,re
sizable=yes');
This isn't a case of "They both do it." This goes directly back to Karl Rove
(who was a close friend of Lee Atwater, it seems.)
"Bill Case" <Bill...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4%NVc.29838$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
IBM
[snip]
> Neither candidate did any of that.
Headcase evidently is blissfully unaware that Trotskerry
is captured in full treason on video and in print doing
just that.
TritonRider
> is captured in full treason on video and in print doing
> just that.
>
> IBM
>
I really don't care what the exact deatils of Kerry's Vietnam service were.
One of the reasons that I will never vote for him was his lying, slandering,
criminalizing of the US military as a group when the political winds were
blowing that way. His anti-military Congressional record just blosters the fact
that he has staked out the same ground as the people who spit on returning
vets, at least until he needed their votes.
Bill C
hippo
"Bill Case" <Bill...@Hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4%NVc.29838$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
I don't think military expertise is sufficient. It would have to be personal
witness. If not it is nothing but heresy. There is quite enough of that
around already. -the Troll
hippo
> hippo wrote:
I know you are right about flying fighters. It is an old strategy for AFROTC
graduates to enlist in ANG fighter squadrons for a period of years so as to
get into flight school already guaranteed fighters and not risk getting
posted to helicopters or transports as you say. Thanks. -the Troll
hippo
> I see.
>
> So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
> and can't separate them from the truth.
>
> You hold he is that uncritical and unable to separate truth from error.
> He is just a conveyor belt for falsehoods and twaddle.
>
> Wasn't he trained in the Scientific Method?
It doesn't have anything to do with brains or the SM. In the case of Paul It
has to do with humanity and a lifetime of culture learned at the tit. I
don't suppose they taught you that at Yale. I'm truly sorry. -the Troll
Paul J Gans
>suspended from flying.??
>MWC
Michael: I happen to agree with you, but as you've surely
noted, opinions about the US election are now set in concrete.
I have not met anybody in the last few weeks who is undecided.
What will happen is that the usual suspects will tell you
that you are lying, that your information is wrong, that
Bush has been exonerated of all possible wrong-doing, etc.
etc. etc.
The latter is certainly true. I'd be shocked if anybody
in the US military, including the national guard has the
balls to produce any record detrimental to the reputation
of the President of the United States, who also happens
to be their Commander in Chief.
Nobody has to pressure them to be "discreet". It comes
with the territory.
----- Paul J. Gans
IBM
news:20040821210825...@mb-m25.aol.com:
[snip]
> I really don't care what the exact deatils of Kerry's Vietnam service
> were.
> One of the reasons that I will never vote for him was his lying,
> slandering, criminalizing of the US military as a group when the
> political winds were blowing that way. His anti-military Congressional
> record just blosters the fact that he has staked out the same ground
> as the people who spit on returning vets, at least until he needed
> their votes.
That too.
D. Spencer Hines
is deceased, God bless her.
Southern Gentlemen don't do that sort of thing -- neither do emergent
gurus.
I'm sure the young Gans was one hell of a burden and a heavy Star of
David to bear on her shoulders.
She must have been quite a strong and intelligent woman. I don't think
she was a pushover and a wimpess.
Gans's deficiencies of character have other prime sources.
Gans is NOT as stupid, ignorant and gullible as you think he is, Yoda.
He KNOWS he is telling and writing falsehoods -- that's called LYING.
May the force be with you.
How are your Jedi Knights, working in the far corners of Mother Earth,
getting along these days?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:hoKdnQevUsb...@giganews.com...
Dallas Patterson
hippo wrote:
Yes, and an essential element of culture is the personal integrity a
gentleman, a lady, and/or a true and faithful academic exercises by
speaking ony the truth known by personal witness and not false witness
in the neglect or absence of evidence.
The problem with Paul Gans is his obvious habit of deliberately and
knowingly bearing false witness to facts he cannot know because they do
not exist. Most recently he has knowingly, deliberately, and falsely
claimed to know the civil aircraft were grounded during the 9-11 attacks
hours before they were actually grounded; and he has claimed to know
that naval ships cannot maneuver on their own on the approaches to New
York City. These latest gratuitous lies from Paul Gans appear to be
typical of his discourse, and it seems an inescapable conclusion to find
that he knows he is speaking lies when he makes such statements. It is
one thing if he were to base his statements upon unreliable sources and
pleaded ignorance of their falsity. Anyone can be found guilty of
relying upon an unreliable source from time to time whether bad or good
judgement is used. Paul Gans, however, makes false statments and bears
false witness without necessarly basing his statements on false and
unreliable sources. Paul Gans simply invents falsehoods or adopts false
rumors with no attempt to ascertain the truth or falsity of the
statements. This kind of self-indulgent and egoistic behavior is
typically exhibited by felons and abusers who habitually lie, deceive,
steal, and harm others without remorse or compassion. It is like the
situation when the three time loser purse thief says to the arresting
police officers with an earnest face he was only returning a purse he
found, after the police officers played the security camera videotape
for him which showed the arrestee stealing the purse in an armed
robbery. Police officers are constantly dumbfounded by the utter
senselessness of the lies the felons try to use, and many of us are
constantly dumbfounded by the utter senselessness of the lies being
proffered as personally known truths by Paul Gans. It is also all the
more incredible to see a professor from a university who should be held
to a higher standard of ethics engaging in such senseless forms of lies
and deceit. Of course, the older you get the more you learn from
experience that academia is much more a training ground for cheats and
liars than it is the fountainhead of ethical standards it so often
pretends and purports to be. <rant off>
Paul J Gans
>I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda. She
>is deceased, God bless her.
Yup. You are now down to talking about my mother.
Par for the Hinesian course.
---- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>hippo wrote:
>> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>I see.
>>>
>>>So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
>>>and can't separate them from the truth.
>>>
>>>You hold he is that uncritical and unable to separate truth from error.
>>>He is just a conveyor belt for falsehoods and twaddle.
>>>
>>>Wasn't he trained in the Scientific Method?
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't have anything to do with brains or the SM. In the case of Paul It
>> has to do with humanity and a lifetime of culture learned at the tit. I
>> don't suppose they taught you that at Yale. I'm truly sorry. -the Troll
>>
>>
>>
>Yes, and an essential element of culture is the personal integrity a
>gentleman, a lady, and/or a true and faithful academic exercises by
>speaking ony the truth known by personal witness and not false witness
>in the neglect or absence of evidence.
> The problem with Paul Gans is his obvious habit of deliberately and
>knowingly bearing false witness to facts he cannot know because they do
>not exist. Most recently he has knowingly, deliberately, and falsely
>claimed to know the civil aircraft were grounded during the 9-11 attacks
>hours before they were actually grounded;
Proof that I claimed that please.
>and he has claimed to know
>that naval ships cannot maneuver on their own on the approaches to New
>York City.
Proof that I claimed that please.
I'll stop at two. They should keep you busy for a while.
And note, no quotes from me that you claim "imply" what
you wrote.
----- Paul J. Gans
Fred J. McCall
:"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
:>
:> So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
:> and can't separate them from the truth.
:
:It doesn't have anything to do with brains or the SM. In the case of Paul It
:has to do with humanity and a lifetime of culture learned at the tit.
As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Hines on this one. Perhaps
Dr Gans should spit that tit out and try listening and reasoning
rather than just lying about what people have said to him.
--
You are
What you do
When it counts.
Fred J. McCall
:What will happen is that the usual suspects will tell you
:that you are lying, that your information is wrong, that
:Bush has been exonerated of all possible wrong-doing, etc.
:etc. etc.
:
:The latter is certainly true.
You're fine to here, Paul. But then you had to veer off into the
ditch in your usual fashion.
:I'd be shocked if anybody
:in the US military, including the national guard has the
:balls to produce any record detrimental to the reputation
:of the President of the United States, who also happens
:to be their Commander in Chief.
:
:Nobody has to pressure them to be "discreet". It comes
:with the territory.
In other words, because the evidence supports his story rather than
yours, that must mean everyone else is falsifying evidence, covering
things up, etc.
Bottom line, Paul, you should have stopped after you recognized that
records showing George Bush accumulated the requisite number of points
and got an honorable discharge, which disproves all the stupid charges
that Democrats have been trying to level against him for at least the
last decade (with no traction at all, by the way).
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Tron Furu
"Dallas Patterson" <n...@fidalgo.net> skrev i melding
news:4128158E...@fidalgo.net...
>
You want to go easy on your pathos there, there's almost no ethos left.
T
Bill Case
Not at all, Patterson presented some very detailed and specific info that as
a Guard memeber for a long time he says PROVES the allegations of Bush
eveding Guard duty are false.
Hines, another miltary expert affirmed that.
The info is far too specific and detailed to be considered "hearsay".
You really should join me in encouraging the two "experts" in making this
info into a legal testament and using it against the websites and journalits
I have previously mentioned.
>
>
Bill Case
"IBM" <i...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:Xns954CDEA65D...@129.250.168.15...
> "Bill Case" <Bill...@Hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:OJLVc.29616$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Neither candidate did any of that.
>
> Headcase evidently is blissfully unaware that Trotskerry
> is captured in full treason on video and in print doing
> just that.
OK shit for brains.
If you have footage of Kerry as he "publicly root for the other side, and
actively demand that they be allowed to win?" put it in a video and put it
on the web so people can see it. Legally attest to it being Kerry.
you should put it on a video
>
> IBM
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
Bill Case
Hippo,
You see Patterson's expertise on the details of this stuff.
That's why we should have him and Hines do the affadavit refuting these
claims against Bush's Guard service evasions.
Bill Case
"Paul J Gans" <ga...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cg8vu4$nl1$2...@reader1.panix.com...
Paul, that is why, in the interest of cleaning up the process, that you
should join me in insisting that Hines and Patterson generate and web
publish a legal affidavit refuting anti-Bush Guard journalism.
Bill
>
> ----- Paul J. Gans
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> > I know you are right about flying fighters. It is an old strategy for
> AFROTC
> > graduates to enlist in ANG fighter squadrons for a period of years so as
> to
> > get into flight school already guaranteed fighters and not risk getting
> > posted to helicopters or transports as you say. Thanks. -the Troll
>
> Hippo,
> You see Patterson's expertise on the details of this stuff.
> That's why we should have him and Hines do the affadavit refuting these
> claims against Bush's Guard service evasions.
I have to bow to his greater knowledge but my second hand experience
occasionally differs from his. Most of my stuff comes from years of ANG
pilots bitching about inequities in the system which even he admits exist
and why I suspect, at least the possibility, of pressure having been brought
to bear to get young Bush into his TANG squadron.
In the end, though, what difference does it make? Our society is ridden with
examples of such things from the better day care centers right the way
through college and into the job market. Parents will always use what
influence they have to help out. Unasked my aunt got me into college by
making one phone call. A friend of mine was gotten into law school the same
way at a time when he had no intent to become a lawyer. We both felt too
obliged not to go. In the end this stuff becomes too subjective to become
any kind of useful fuel for a political campaign. If we don't bed wetting
will be next. -the Troll
Bill Case
The idea is too fight people slandering others wrongly.
Form what they have posted, Hines and Patterson apparently have the ability
to do that and should do so.
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
[.]
> How are your Jedi Knights, working in the far corners of Mother Earth,
> getting along these days?
They don't communicate much because they are busy. Sometimes I hear from
them through their parents. Many can't say what they are doing but at least
the SF ones will have enough experience to write books once the statute of
limitations on their security clearances runs out or at retirement. A few
have told great stories. -the Troll
Fred J. McCall
:"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
:
:> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
:
:I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
--
"So many women. So little charm."
-- Donna, to Josh; The West Wing
D. Spencer Hines
twists in the story line in order to preserve security and keep
identities secret, of course.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:XICdnbi4eP5...@giganews.com...
| "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
| > How are your Jedi Knights, working in the far corners of Mother
Michael W Cook
That's right, Fred, the evidence is clear as day - the current President of
the United States avoided the draft and got it fixed so he could go in the
TNG instead. Yet despite getting the lowest possible score he was still
promoted above hundreds of others far more qualified than he.
I wonder if Colin Powell has ever discussed this with Dubya ?
Taken from his book:
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed
to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies
of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to
the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to
their country."
Even when Bush senior served he did so under a heap of favours not afforded
to others. This seems to be a trait that runs in the Bush family, they
believe they are above doing their duty like everyone else and have to have
'special privileges' before they will serve their country.
Shame on you and shame on America.
MWC
hippo
"Bill Case" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
> The idea is too fight people slandering others wrongly.
> Form what they have posted, Hines and Patterson apparently have the
ability
> to do that and should do so.
I agree and they have in this forum. Hines was not in the ANG and is merely
passing on what he has read. Patterson has more immediate information and
perhaps he will. -the Troll
Bill Case
Hines has implied he is a military expert and posted the sort of support for
Patterson's post that would imply primary factual knowledge. They should
collaborate on a document and attest to it.
>
Bill Case
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:i2mhi0dq69iio3lbj...@4ax.com...
> "hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote:
>
> :"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> :
> :> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
> :
> :I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
>
> Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
McCall really is a scumbag and a coward.
hippo
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote:
>
> :"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> :
> :> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
> :
> :I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
>
> Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
He doesn't have horns either. Let's not sink to their level of myth
making. -the Troll
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Why don't you tell us a story or two -- with appropriate changes and
> twists in the story line in order to preserve security and keep
> identities secret, of course.
I already have, boring the other posters here catatonic. It isn't after all
British history. -the Troll
hippo
"Dallas Patterson" wrote in message
> hippo wrote:
I certainly agree but here is an example from my own experience of what I am
talking about. My Jewish brother-in-law's father was a communist party
member and had been since his youth in the '20's in Poland. He was thrown
out of Palestine for communist agitation in the '30's and force
re-expatriated to Poland. Some few members of the family barely made it out
of Poland and into Spain before the Nazis closed the border. Their family
tree is shown with sawn off limbs to show the branches extinguished in the
holocaust. It was always communist propaganda that the Nazis were somehow
right-wingers which you and I know isn't true. Sadly propaganda becomes a
cultural thing and has in this instance.
Before the collapse of the USSR my high school aged nephew, his son, made a
class trip to the place. When he returned I was invited to dinner for the
'great telling' about the worker's paradise. When the truth of a gray place,
unhappy people, inedible food, students too frightened to speak with
American students, poverty, squalor, KGB travel controls, and the rest came
out, the father visibly shrank because it was his own very bright son
telling the story who he knew to be truthful. Today he denies the event ever
took place. He does because the truth does not equate with his cultural
experience and the beliefs of a lifetime. Can you fault them for it? I can't
bring myself to do it even without the cultural bias. Maybe Hines is right
and I am easily gulled but I think it is every bit as much reality as the
filters we use to discern truth for ourselves. We can and should refute them
in public forums but should we add ad homonym attacks? After some years I
have decided it is wrong. -the Troll
hippo
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote:
>
> :"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> :>
> :> So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
> :> and can't separate them from the truth.
> :
> :It doesn't have anything to do with brains or the SM. In the case of Paul
It
> :has to do with humanity and a lifetime of culture learned at the tit.
>
> As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Hines on this one. Perhaps
> Dr Gans should spit that tit out and try listening and reasoning
> rather than just lying about what people have said to him.
It is more easily said than done. Perhaps he will and can listen. He won't
if he thinks we are rotten soulless jack booted bastards just as his culture
says we are. You and I already know he is wrong but he doesn't. He thinks we
are doing just as he does, mindlessly regurgitating the crap spooned out by
our propaganda aparat. He certainly isn't the only person in New York who
believes what he reads in the Times especially when it agrees with his own
cultural bias. It is in fact rare to fine anyone who doesn't. I'm for taking
the high road in these debates. -the Troll
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:
:> "hippo" wrote:
:>
:> :"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
:> :
:> :> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
:> :
:> :I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
:>
:> Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
:
:He doesn't have horns either.
He might. If YOU were married to him, wouldn't you cheat?
:Let's not sink to their level of myth
:making. -the Troll
Why not? It seems like the only way to respond to them. It's
certainly not worth the mental effort to try to be logical and factual
with them, given that both logic and facts are wasted on them.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Fred J. McCall
:
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:
:> "hippo" wrote:
:>
:> :"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
:> :>
:> :> So Gans is so stupid and ignorant he just unwittingly passes along lies
:> :> and can't separate them from the truth.
:> :
:> :It doesn't have anything to do with brains or the SM. In the case of Paul
:It
:> :has to do with humanity and a lifetime of culture learned at the tit.
:>
:> As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Hines on this one. Perhaps
:> Dr Gans should spit that tit out and try listening and reasoning
:> rather than just lying about what people have said to him.
:
:It is more easily said than done. Perhaps he will and can listen.
All evidence is against it.
:He won't
:if he thinks we are rotten soulless jack booted bastards just as his culture
:says we are.
Which means he won't, since he *IS* going to believe that. I don't
have to cater to cultures that produce liars. Whatever culture Gans
is from, that is what it has produced in him.
As with everyone else, I'll continue to call them as I see them. I
consider that to BE the 'high road'.
If it looks like a jackass, brays like a jackass, and displays an
intellect commensurate with that of a jackass....
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer
hippo
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote:
> :> Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
> :
> :He doesn't have horns either.
>
> He might. If YOU were married to him, wouldn't you cheat?
>
> :Let's not sink to their level of myth
> :making. -the Troll
>
> Why not? It seems like the only way to respond to them. It's
> certainly not worth the mental effort to try to be logical and factual
> with them, given that both logic and facts are wasted on them.
It can be frustrating I know. I've been at it for years without much to show
for it. It helps, I think, that they can see intelligent articulate folks
disagree with them. They would like to think all conservatives are drooling
red necked idiots that wear sheets most nights and spend days in dark
basements plotting the great right-wing conspiracy or planning scams around
infant exploitation laws in Bangladesh. . -the Troll
Bill Case
How are you guys coming on that " F102 facts disprove Bush war shirking"
affidavit? When do you think you will get it up on the net?
[ for those interested, below is an exchange the "Re: Commodore Hine's
Military Experience and knowledge"
thread concerning using their vast military knowledge to address what they
consider fabrications concerning President Bush's military service record. ]
Here's an link criticizing Bush's National Guard service which apparently
these people could easily discredit with all the "facts" that Hines and
Patterson have at hand concerning this subject.
http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm#vietnam
Of, course Hines and Patterson are going to prove that the allegations
stated in detail in this link are all wrong. I think a sworn affadavit would
have to carry some weight, and since they have the facts of this at their
disposal, I think we should all encourage them to do so.
"Dallas Patterson" <n...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:41250AD8...@fidalgo.net...
>
>
> Bill Case wrote:
>
> > "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:pR2Vc.67$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> >
> >>"The F-102 was an air superiority fighter made for WWIII. It didn't
> >>have the slightest air-to-ground capability and so would have been
> >>useless in Vietnam. It's role was for a general war in Europe. You
> >>can't play baseball with a tennis racquet." -the Troll
> >>----------------------------
> >>
> >>This is a point which those who say "Bush was a coward and wouldn't go
> >>to Vietnam" refuse to admit -- or to be educated on.
> >>
> >
> > Hines, I'm wondering whether you have any military knowledge.
> >
> > Did Bush get into an obsolete squadron for the very reason that it
wouldn't
> > be
> > deployed to VN? It's clear he used family connections to get into the
Guard
> > in the first place.
>
>
> The 111th FIS was not an obsolete squadron when Bush volunteered for
> military service with the squadron in 1968. The 111th squadron is still
> in service today. In fact, the 111th FIS was supplying its F-102 pilots
> to the USAF on six month tours of duty, with many of the 111th FIS F-102
> pilots flying F-102 aircraft on combat missions in Vietnam. The
> retirement of of the F-102 Delta Dagger as an obsolescent fighter was an
> event which was still another 4 to 7 years into the future.
>
> "It's [NOT] clear he used family connections to get into the Guard in
> the first place." Such allegations are fabricated lies. The facts and
> testimony of the officers with direct participation and authority in the
> events directly refute such false allegations. It makes no difference
> whether or not anyone expressed an interest in securing such an
> assignment for Bush, because it was unnecessary to do so and attempts to
> do so would have been ignored by the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and
> the Air National Guard Bureau (ANGB). Now, it may have served someone's
> purpose to allow a politician to believe he could influence such a
> decision, but the reality was that such political requests were
> contrary to regulations, very closely watched for violations, and
> disregarded when encountered. Political intervention was totally
> unnecessary, because the 147th Fighter-Interceptor Group (FIG) (TANG)
> had 26 unfilled openings for officers. Some 5 or 6 of those 26 unfilled
> openings for officers were for F-102 pilots. There was no waiting list
> for pilots, so Bush needed no help from family or political friends to
> volunteer for one of the 5 to 6 open positions. In fact, Bush qualified
> for one of the 3 or 4 annual pilot training slots alotted to the 147th
> FIG by earning high scores on his qualification tests, including a 95
> percentile on the leadership test. The commanding officer of the 147th
> FIG, Colonel Staudt, said, "If somebody like that came along, you'd
> snatch them up. He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any
> difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
>
>
> >
> > How long do you think it takes to re-train from one fighter to another?
> >
>
>
> You demonstrate your colossal ignorance and prejudice by asking an
> irrelevant question. Meeting qualifications to fly the F-101/RF-101
> Voodoo which was slated to replace the F-102 in the 111th FIS/147th FIG
> required many months of training. But the more important and relevant
> issue is the time required to accumulate the extensive flight time and
> experience with the F-101/RF-101 required by the mission of the 111th
> FIS/147th FIG.
>
>
> > Do you think they release expensively trained pilots from the services
when
> > the aircraft they were initially trained on go out of service?
> >
>
>
> Yes, that is exactly what the USAF, USN, USMC, and USA does in many
> circumstances. In the period of 1972 to around 1975 or later, the
> airline pilots associations were screaming bloody murder and complaining
> to Congress and the DoD about the massive numbers of military pilots
> which were being suddenly discharged into the commercial airline
> industry. Pilots who paid for their own civil aeronautics training
> complained bitterly about not being able to get jobs in the airline
> industry, because the massive numbers of discharged military piklots
> received hiring preference and denied them jobs. Many universities,
> colleges, and other aeronautical training schools closed their training
> programs, scaled them back, and/or catered to foreign aeronautical
> students for who English was a Second Language (ESL); because the demand
> for students dropped sharply as the airline industry gave hiring
> preferences to discharged military pilots trained by the U.S. Government.
>
>
> > Navy and Marine helicopter pilots are both fixed wing and helo trained -
> > couldn't Dumbya have re-trained on a different model fixed wing? That
would
> > have been
> > easy in comparison.
>
>
> Certainly, the Texas Air National Guard (TANG) and the USAF could
> theoretically have had pilots like Bush and many of his squadron mates
> re-trained on the F-101/RF-101 Voodoo, but the USAF and TANG did not
> want to do so for a great many reasons, with cost and low availablity of
> training classes being at the forefront.
>
> The 111th FIS/147th FIG was transformed from an operational ADC (Air
> Defense Command) unit to a training ADC unit on 1 January 1970. The
> pilot qualifications for a training unit was much greater than the pilot
> qualifications for operational units. Pilots with less than 1,000 flight
> hours in the F-102 could not serve as instructor pilots, so the
> instructor pilots slots had to be reserved for pilots who already had
> the required 1,000 hours in the F-102. Since it would require several
> years for young pilots like Bush and his young peers in the
> squadron/group to have an opportunity to accumulate another 400 hours of
> F-102 flight time required for such a minimum qualification, the USAF
> and TANG did not have enough available alert duty flight hours or
> allocated training slots for aircraft type conversion to give these
> younger pilots an opportunity to qualify as instructor pilots for the
> F-102 or the F-101/RF-101.
>
> Instead, the USAF and TANG recruited active duty F-102 and later
> F-101/RF-101 pilots with 1,000 or more hours in the aircraft and who
> were being discharged early from the active duty USAF because of the RIF
> (Reduction-In-Force). The recruitment of the discharged active duty
> pilots avoided the costs of type conversion training, provided the
> experience needed for instructor pilots, and provided career minded
> active duty pilots a place in the Air National Guard (ANG) and Air Force
> Reserves (AFR) to continue their careers in military aviation, albeit on
> a part-time basis. To make room in the ANG and the AFR for these
> instructor pilots as they were being discharged from the active duty Air
> Force, it was necessary to open up available positions in the units by
> encouraging the younger pilots with less than 1,000 hours of flight time
> to voluntarily accept an early discharge from the ANG/AFR or
> involuntarily discharging them in the RIF.
>
> So, the type conversion training was not provided for reasons of time
> and cost for the convenience of the service.
>
>
> >
> > Hines, I think you should think twice before trying make other people
look
> > bad - bullying doesn't work on a lot of people.
> >
>
> Such a statement is clearly a Case of the charcoal calling the stainless
> steel kettle black.
Dallas,
Upon reflection, it occurs to me that in the post above, you do seem to
present a lot of potentially decisive factual info. And, of course, you are
supported by the military expertise of Hines and "Righteous Dan".
Most of us have to rely on secondary sources and hope that we are getting
good facts and logic about these matters, and hope that we draw valid
balanced conclusions.
But you, Hines and "Righteous Dan", you seem to be in a different, more
"primary" position on matters requiring military knowledge, especially on
this rather important matter of George Bush's National Guard service . You
apparently have more info and insights than the rest of us that run contrary
to much of the journalism on the subject.
I would like to propose something that would combat what may be a lot of
distorted info, such as presented in the links I posted in this thread.
These go into some mostly negative detail regarding Bush's National Guard
service history. Apparently the details you have posted prove many or all of
these criticisms of Bush's service to be wrong.
In the interest of honesty in politics, why not develop the factual info you
present above into a clear refutation of any Bush wrong doings or evasion,
and present it within a sworn legal affidavit. Unlike most of us, you and
Hines, and "Righteous Dan" apparently have the knowledge to do something
like this. It could then be posted on the internet, promoted as an expert
testimony on the questions addressed, and the sworn nature of the factual
data and insights might do Bush a lot of good, and help improve this rather
murky process we are in.
Sincerely, Bill
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AhtVc.16$DO4...@eagle.america.net...
> Thanks.
>
> That's a remarkably clear, concise, direct answer.
>
> No Lies, Chuffing Or Dissembling...
>
> We need more of that sort of straight talk.
>
> Will the "Two Jags" moniker do him in?
>
> DSH
>
> "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:cg5cvt$psr$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> |
> | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | news:jy3Vc.71$M94....@eagle.america.net...
>
> | > Thank you.
> | >
> | > Does he have any Real Power?
> |
> | I would think he is the third most powerful figure behind the
> Chancellor
> | of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown.
> | But the Home Secretary, David Blunkett and Foreign Secretary, Jack
> Straw
> | might disagree.
> |
> | >
> | > Could he ever become P.M.?
> |
> | The Labour Party could choose him as PM if Blair resigned, Brown would
> | be favourite, but his Achilles heel would be his Scots constituency
> and
> | devolution of powers to the Scots Parliament.
> | The Blair camp has been briefing Tory newspapers for sometime that an
> MP
> | for a Scots constituency, can never again be PM.
> |
> | Jamie
> |
> | >
> |
> | > DSH
> | >
> | > "Vaughan Sanders" <ja...@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
> | > message news:cg2fph$rt9$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> | > |
> | > | "D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> | > | news:QY2Vc.68$M94....@eagle.america.net...
> | >
> | > | > "bar-stewards in the Merchant Navy -nudge, nudge, wink, wink
> | > | know'who'I' mean?;"
> | > | >
> | > | > Who is this?
> | > | >
> | > | > DSH
> | > | >
> | > | > "Brian Sharrock" <b.sha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> | > | > news:Rv%Uc.152$Yl...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net..
> | > |
> | > | Chuffing Two Jags, the chuffing deputy PM..
> | > |
> | > | "Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No it's Prescott"
> | > |
> | >
> |
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article
> | > _id=314191&in_page_id=1770
> | > |
> | > | Jamie
>
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
-----------------------------
Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock
"I know that most men -- not only those considered clever, but even
those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
perhaps with great difficulty -- conclusions of which they are proud,
which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
lives."
Leo Tolstoy [1896] -- Source: "What Is Art?" -- Leo Tolstoy, Translated
by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles Scribner's Sons,
(1902), Volume 19, p. 468
------------------------
So They Prevaricate, Tergiversate, Distort, Dissemble, Equivocate, Claim
Selective Amnesia, Misrepresent And -- When Push Comes To Shove -- LIE.
Gans does ALL of the above -- as he deems to be appropriate in a given
situation.
Heinlein would understand perfectly.
Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum.
'Nuff Said....
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Fred J. McCall
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
And nothing you say or do will disabuse the Paul Gans' of the world
from this ignorant (AND stupid) belief.
The problem is that they assume those who disagree with them are
reflections of themselves. Frankly, I treat ALL the idiots like
idiots. Their politics are secondary to their idiocy.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
hippo
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote:
> :It can be frustrating I know. I've been at it for years without much to
show
> :for it. It helps, I think, that they can see intelligent articulate
folks
> :disagree with them. They would like to think all conservatives are
drooling
> :red necked idiots that wear sheets most nights and spend days in dark
> :basements plotting the great right-wing conspiracy or planning scams
around
> :infant exploitation laws in Bangladesh. . -the Troll
>
> And nothing you say or do will disabuse the Paul Gans' of the world
> from this ignorant (AND stupid) belief.
That's possible.
> The problem is that they assume those who disagree with them are
> reflections of themselves. Frankly, I treat ALL the idiots like
> idiots. Their politics are secondary to their idiocy.
The rejoinder is obvious, don't behave like reflections of them so their
opinions are not vindicated. Unfortunately their idiocy isn't dangerous,
their politics is. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@southsudan.net> wrote in message
news:9-2dnWUtMJX...@giganews.com...
|
| "Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
|
| > "hippo" wrote:
|
| >:It can be frustrating I know. I've been at it for years without much
| >:to show for it. It helps, I think, that they can see intelligent
| >:articulate folks disagree with them. They would like to think all
| >:conservatives are drooling red necked idiots that wear sheets
| >:most nights and spend days in dark basements plotting the great
| >:right-wing conspiracy or planning scams around infant exploitation
| >:laws in Bangladesh.- the Troll
| >
| >And nothing you say or do will disabuse the Paul Gans' of the world
| >from this ignorant (AND stupid) belief. [McCall]
|
| That's possible.
Possible?
Hell, it's inevitable.
Gans just assumes Yoda is a soft "conservative"whom he can gull -- and
proceeds accordingly.
It works beautifully.
So Gans keeps working that track.
You BET Yoda is "without much to show for it." Vide supra.
Naive.
Failed Strategy....
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
>:What will happen is that the usual suspects will tell you
>:that you are lying, that your information is wrong, that
>:Bush has been exonerated of all possible wrong-doing, etc.
>:etc. etc.
>:
>:The latter is certainly true.
>You're fine to here, Paul. But then you had to veer off into the
>ditch in your usual fashion.
>:I'd be shocked if anybody
>:in the US military, including the national guard has the
>:balls to produce any record detrimental to the reputation
>:of the President of the United States, who also happens
>:to be their Commander in Chief.
>:
>:Nobody has to pressure them to be "discreet". It comes
>:with the territory.
>In other words, because the evidence supports his story rather than
>yours, that must mean everyone else is falsifying evidence, covering
>things up, etc.
Fred, in your usual sneaky way, you DELETED what I said,
leaving in only the warning I put at the bottom. What
I said about Bush and his military service is true. And
what I said about the usual suspects (you are one of them)
simply asserting "that Bush has been exonerated of all
possible wrong-doing,.." (a direct quote from what I wrote)
is exactly what you've done.
>Bottom line, Paul, you should have stopped after you recognized that
>records showing George Bush accumulated the requisite number of points
>and got an honorable discharge, which disproves all the stupid charges
>that Democrats have been trying to level against him for at least the
>last decade (with no traction at all, by the way).
But I didn't say that. Yoo are responding to what you *wish*
I'd said.
You do that a lot.
----- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>Bill
Bill, I've been dealing with Hines for almost eight years
now. The man is, in my opinion, a sociopath. He is never
wrong, he never apologizes, and he does not give a sh*t
about what people say about him. He is secure in his
own delusions.
His only fun comes from denigrating those whom he fears.
So he has his hands full insulting people because he
fears so many.
Patterson is somewhat different. He buries you in
often conflicting verbiage so that when push comes
to shove, he can always bury you again.
A while back I noted that it was improper for the US
to hold American citizens in the US without charges
and to cut them off from lawyers. I also noted
that many of the Guantanamo prisoners were being held
under conditions that violated US law and the US
constitution.
Patterson assured me in impolite terms that I did not
know what I was talking about. He cited international
treaties, previous US Supreme Court cases, the Geneva
and other conventions, etc. etc. and assured anybody
who would listen that any cases challenging the status
of the prisoners would be essentially dismissed by the
courts.
In the event he was wrong. Totally wrong.
Being the gentleman that he is, he now claims that
he never claimed otherwise.
Both Patterson and Hines are hopeless cases. Now that
the New York Times has rather conclusively tied the
"Swift Boat" folks to Karl Rove and other members of
the Bush administration, and now that other previously
silent folk have come forward agreeing with Kerry, there
is little left to discuss.
The technique used against Kerry is identical to the smears
used against McCain -- who was accused of not having nearly
the war record claimed. Indeed, some of the same people
were involved in that.
Will this stop Hines and Patterson and McCall and others?
Absolutely not.
They are fighting for their political future and there are
no holds barred.
The best you can do is simply stick a fact into their
presentations and then stand back and watch them froth.
----- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
>I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
I understood that and took no offense.
I took no offense at Hines either. It is not the first
time he's attacked me through my mother. I'm used to
it.
----- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>:"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>:
>:> I don't think we should be bringing Gans's mother into this, Yoda.
>:
>:I didn't. It is a figure of speech which you know perfectly well.
>Yeah. Some of us aren't even convinced that Gans HAD a mother....
Thank you Fred.
I appreciate that.
I have noticed that when you run out of facts you resort to
insults. You might take a hint from Hippo who, except for
a regretable tendency to call those he argues with "liberals",
almost never hurls insults.
----- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
Hmmm. I didn't know that insults delivered by reference to
one's mother was "myth making". Must be my "liberal"
myopia.
----- Paul J. Gans
Fred J. McCall
:"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
:>
:> The problem is that they assume those who disagree with them are
:> reflections of themselves. Frankly, I treat ALL the idiots like
:> idiots. Their politics are secondary to their idiocy.
:
:The rejoinder is obvious, don't behave like reflections of them so their
:opinions are not vindicated. Unfortunately their idiocy isn't dangerous,
:their politics is. -the Troll
Ah, but the problem, you see, is that they will SEE you as that
reflection no matter what you do. After all, if they were open to
factual reality they would not believe the things they do in the first
place.
When someone acts as if they know what I mean better than I do (and
are absolutely wrong), well, they should EXPECT to be called the liar
that they are.
As I have repeatedly said, for folks who object to being called a
liar, the way to avoid it is generally to stop lying.
This is something that Gans appears to be inherently unable to do.
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Leo Tolstoy On Firmly Held Beliefs and Resultant Mental Gridlock
>
> "I know that most men -- not only those considered clever, but even
> those who really are clever and capable of understanding the most
> difficult scientific, mathematical or philosophic problems, can seldom
> discern even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as
> obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions they have formed,
> perhaps with great difficulty -- conclusions of which they are proud,
> which they have taught to others, and on which they have built their
> lives."
Yes, an excellent quote and right on the money.
>Leo Tolstoy [1896] -- Source: "What Is Art?" -- Leo Tolstoy, Translated
> by Aylmer Maude, in Tolstoy's Collected Works, Charles Scribner's Sons,
> (1902), Volume 19, p. 468
> ------------------------
>
> So They Prevaricate, Tergiversate, Distort, Dissemble, Equivocate, Claim
> Selective Amnesia, Misrepresent And -- When Push Comes To Shove -- LIE.
That isn't what Tolstoy is saying. What he is saying is that "they can't
discern even the simplest and most obvious truth....", and he is right. In
other words every true thing we say to disprove them is disbelieved so as to
defend their own misconceptions and life's work. By extension they are not
misrepresenting if they state what they believe to be true and gained under
this principle, just as I have been telling them with regard to the
President's 'lies' about WMD. It can not be a lie if it is believed by the
teller, however erroneously. -the Troll
Fred J. McCall
:In alt.history.british Fred J. McCall <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
:>Paul J Gans <ga...@panix.com> wrote:
:
:>:What will happen is that the usual suspects will tell you
:>:that you are lying, that your information is wrong, that
:>:Bush has been exonerated of all possible wrong-doing, etc.
:>:etc. etc.
:>:
:>:The latter is certainly true.
:
:>You're fine to here, Paul. But then you had to veer off into the
:>ditch in your usual fashion.
:
:>:I'd be shocked if anybody
:>:in the US military, including the national guard has the
:>:balls to produce any record detrimental to the reputation
:>:of the President of the United States, who also happens
:>:to be their Commander in Chief.
:>:
:>:Nobody has to pressure them to be "discreet". It comes
:>:with the territory.
:
:>In other words, because the evidence supports his story rather than
:>yours, that must mean everyone else is falsifying evidence, covering
:>things up, etc.
:
:Fred, in your usual sneaky way, you DELETED what I said,
It's called 'trimming down', Paul, and there's nothing 'sneaky' about
it. I leave in what I'm responding to. It's general Usenet etiquette
so as not to post 1,000 lines of quotes ending with "Me too" as the
only original text.
:leaving in only the warning I put at the bottom. What
:I said about Bush and his military service is true. And
:what I said about the usual suspects (you are one of them)
:simply asserting "that Bush has been exonerated of all
:possible wrong-doing,.." (a direct quote from what I wrote)
:is exactly what you've done.
Yes, it is, because it is the truth. You, of course, must assume
there was some kind of skullduggery going on in order to keep venting
your spleen.
:>Bottom line, Paul, you should have stopped after you recognized that
:>records showing George Bush accumulated the requisite number of points
:>and got an honorable discharge, which disproves all the stupid charges
:>that Democrats have been trying to level against him for at least the
:>last decade (with no traction at all, by the way).
:
:But I didn't say that.
That's a pity, since those are the actual facts.
:Yoo are responding to what you *wish*
:I'd said.
Not hardly. I simply assumed you actually had a brain in the loop for
a change.
So you didn't mean the first part of what you wrote and you're still
pretending that there is something wrong. So much for reality
intruding into your world. I really should have known better than to
think it would.
:You do that a lot.
And you lie a lot. Like your preceding sentence.
Paul J Gans
>> hippo wrote:
This is all very well, but has nothing to do with me.
I've never claimed a "worker's paradise". Heck, I'm
not even a "liberal". But you don't believe that.
My point here is that I'd appreciate it if you did not
simply take Patterson's characterization of what I posted
as accurate or even truthful. I've already challenged him
to produce my actual words.
He won't because I never said those things.
And indeed, being the man that he is, he'll not respond to
me except possibly by heaping more insults on me.
---- Paul J. Gans