the ending of a novel
Tom and Dana
It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed to good
literature. With the frantic lifestyles that so many people choose to lead
today, they probably don't have the energy to focus on books that takes any
amount thought! Another factor is also coming into play. Many young
adults are not able to mentally process good literature. I am in the
currently reading "Endangered Minds: Why Our Children Don't Think" by Jane
M. Healy--- what an eye-opener! This all reminds me of a topic of
discussion I have had with many parents of grade schoolers. There is a
philosophy among many parents and educators that as long as kids are
excited to read--- it doesn't matter what they are choosing to read.
Goosebumps being one of the questionable choices. It angers me to no end
that people are willing to give in to this mentality! I have made it very
clear to my kids (2nd & Kindergarten) that there are soooo many great books
out there, why waste time reading Goosebumps! They have no problem with
this because I make sure that we pick good read alouds--- Jim Trelease has
several wonderful reference books for parents. Parents have to realize
that they can be very effective at helping their children to be good
readers of good books----they can't leave it to the schools (teachers are
doing their best---but they can't do it alone!). What children want most
from their parents is their attention. What better way to spend time
together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great book!?!
My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read", the
next generation hardly has a chance! My favorite book ending is from
"Grapes Of Wrath"!
Dumont
In "Tom and Dana" <dtt...@netsync.net> writes:
>There is a
>philosophy among many parents and educators that as long as kids are
>excited to read--- it doesn't matter what they are choosing to read.
>Goosebumps being one of the questionable choices. It angers me to no end
>that people are willing to give in to this mentality! I have made it very
>clear to my kids (2nd & Kindergarten) that there are soooo many great books
>that they can be very effective at helping their children to be good
>readers of good books----they can't leave it to the schools (teachers are
>time together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great
>book!?! My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good
>read", the next generation hardly has a chance! My favorite book ending is
>from "Grapes Of Wrath"!
There's a good point here. I never really questioned where our reading
habbits stem from, but there is a good point here.
The books that I probably sell the most of are Goosbumps. The sad thing is,
it's not just from 3rd graders. Even High School kids are reading Goosbumps!
I'm really amazed how many people only 3 or 4 years younger than myself
still read books in the kids section.
I think there's a reason here why Pop-Fiction books have "American
Fairy-Tail" endings. If the audience that reads Pop-Fiction tomorrow is
the audience that is currently reading Goosbumps, then it's a natural
transition. The "American Fair-Tail" ending will always exist.
Grapes Of Wrath has a great ending. You don't really know exactly
what's going to happen to this family. Maybe they'll still live in
poverty, but it seems like the family will remain tight. A friend and
former teacher of mine told me that over hald his Junior English class
that he had read Grapes Of Wrath didn't understand the ending. Either
that, or they didn't even read it.
I hate to think of my reading habbits as being in the minority, but I
guess they are. Why else would authors like Daniel Akst, Douglas
Coupland, David Foster Wallace, T. Corhaggessen Boyle, Irvine Welsh,
etc. not make it to the Best Seller List?
Bryce
Dumont
In "Christy" <khry...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
>Who is anybody to decide what is good literature and what is not? It is
>somebody's right to decide for themselves. What's sad is that somebody can
>be as closed minded as that statement is, maybe too many adults are not
>mentally able to accept tastes that differ from theirs, i happen to think
>that many of the classics are excellent literature yet my boyfriend and
>brother find them to be useless, and prefer many of the modern authors,
>there is nothing wrong with that, it is a matter of opinion and a right.
Hmm, I always seem to start the controversial topics. Yes, it is a matter of
opinion what's a good book and what isn't. But, my idea was really this:
Pop-Fiction (the modern authors that some people choose to read) end their
books in a "happily ever after" manner. You know, with our "frantic lives" I
find a "bad guy dies, good guy wins" book not very realistic.
Like I said in my first post, Pop-Fiction could be viewed from an artists
point of view as Romanticism. Some books in the contempory, New Yorker
writer, etc vein are Realism. In literature, just as in art, it's a matter
of taste.
>Now for my view, a child should be exposed to a vast amount of knowledge
>and books, but if that child chooses to read goosebumps, they should be
>aloud, if you force a child to read anything what are the chances they will
>enjoy reading? how will they ever become their own person instead of mommy
>and daddy's clone? Exposing a child to things is extremely important, and
>letting them decide for themselves is just as important, if you forbid a
>child to read a book ie goosebumps, you are no better than people who are
>for censorship.
I agree, you cannot "force" a child to read. But, because some schools are
going away from reading lists with books on them that are agreed upon by the
majority as good book. Instead, it's the "read whatever" mentality that a lot
of people seem to have. Well, if kids in school can read whatever, they're
most likely going to choose Goosbumps over Cather In The Rye. I fon't think
it's a matter of "censoring" Goosbumps, but rather "encouraging" them to read
something else. Try "A Wrinkle In Time" instead of the latest "Sweet Valley
High" book.
Yes, exposing kids too books is good. But, if you want them to keep reading
be more involved with it. I guess this message goes out to both parents and
Teachers (the latter I will become in a few years). And, I'm not sure what
you mean about "mommy and daddy's clone." My father was one of those people
that, after he got out of school, never read again. He figured he would never
have to, if he wasn't going to school. My mom reads a lot of Robin Cook, and
other Pop-Fiction authors. What happened to me? I guess I'm just one of the
few the decided I liked reading challenging books.
>>It angers me to no end that people are willing to give in to this
>>mentality!
>
>i say the same for the mentality you seem to portray
The mentality that <dtt...@netsync.net> (sorry, you didn't incude you name in
that post) portrayed was not really one of Censorship. This person is looking
at the decline in society and literature ("Endangered Minds: Why Our Children
Don't Think" is a good book, and a perfect example of where this person is
coming from). I think telling kids "read whatever" is dangerous. Why else
would people in my university classes choose to read the comic book version
of Shakespeare instead of the read the actual plays? But, you are right, we
can't force these kids to read certain things either, or they will give up on
reading, much like some of my family members have.
>>My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read", the
>>next generation hardly has a chance!
>
>That is one of the most judgemental and prejudiced statements i have heard,
>i would like to see the research you have done on every person in the next
>generation and how pop-fiction is detrimental to there future, i am sure
>you have worked up an incredible study. of course the folks couldn't
>mentally absorb the fact that they were in a study...
I wouldn't say it's a "prejudiced" statement. Look, this person is reading
"Endangered Minds: Why Our Children Don't Think." There's research right
there. She has 2 kids. Through these two kids, she is seeing them and their
friends. She can figure out what direct they will be going. Sure, there will
always be people looking for great books, and there will always be people
wanting to read easy to understand, formulatic books, but we don't want to
see illiteracy go up. There is plenty of research out there (just take a look
at the Education section of you local bookstore or library) that will give
you the studies that show what direction we are headed.
As a writer, I would love for people to read my work. However, I've been told
my friends and professionals that I will never sell my writine because I
don't write Pop-fiction. As one Editor told me I "don't have enough bulls***
in the story for it to sell." Sad, but true.
Well, we seem to have lost direction a bit. I really wanted to know what
kinds of endings people prefer to read. "Realism" or "Romanticism"? But, this
topic is stimulating as well.
Bryce
AJA
On 17 May 1997 03:41:55 GMT, " Tom and Dana" <dtt...@netsync.net>
wrote:
>It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed to good
>literature.
(snipped similar comment)
What better way to spend time
>together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great book!?!
>My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read", the
>next generation hardly has a chance! My favorite book ending is from
>"Grapes Of Wrath"!
>
Like anything else, choosing great books to read to children takes
time. I always chose books that were slightly above my son's reading
ability. I say slightly- just enough to be a challenge and not a
frustration. Some passages I would paraphrase or 'read' in simpler
language. Books by CS Lewis or McGuin, which pique the imagination
are good for instilling the joy of reading in kids. With a bit more
effort one could end each night's reading session at a place in the
book which make the child wonder what will happen next. Good
librarians in my town were of invaluable assistance in helping to
choose 'good' books for this purpose. And so-called popular books
aren't all bad. At a certain age the book Charlotte's Web was a real
hit. Tons of discussion material there for children and parents. The
discussion for us was perhaps the most valuable experience before the
child could sit down and read books on his own. It was I most missed
when our son was able to read entirely on his own.
All the best,
Ann
M. Spencer
prefer entertaining reading as opposed to that which stretches the brain
a bit. To each his own; I prefer the latter.
Martha
)
In article <337faadb...@news.cybernex.net>, ahne...@cybernex.net (AJA) says:
>
>On 17 May 1997 03:41:55 GMT, " Tom and Dana" <dtt...@netsync.net>
>wrote:
>
>>It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed to good
>>literature.
>
>(snipped similar comment)
>
> What better way to spend time
>>together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great book!?!
>>"Grapes Of Wrath"!
>>
>
>Like anything else, choosing great books to read to children takes
>time. I always chose books that were slightly above my son's reading
>ability. I say slightly- just enough to be a challenge and not a
>frustration. Some passages I would paraphrase or 'read' in simpler
>language. Books by CS Lewis or McGuin, which pique the imagination
>are good for instilling the joy of reading in kids. With a bit more
>effort one could end each night's reading session at a place in the
>book which make the child wonder what will happen next. Good
>librarians in my town were of invaluable assistance in helping to
>choose 'good' books for this purpose. And so-called popular books
>aren't all bad. At a certain age the book Charlotte's Web was a real
>hit. Tons of discussion material there for children and parents. The
>discussion for us was perhaps the most valuable experience before the
>child could sit down and read books on his own. It was I most missed
>when our son was able to read entirely on his own.
>
>All the best,
>Ann
K. Marie
When I was in 8th grade, our teacher spent a few weeks reading to us
City Boy by Herman Wouk. I really, really enjoyed the story, and have
never forgotten it. I plan to read it to my two boys next.
Another favorite author is Madeline L Engle; A Wrinkle In Time, A Wind
in The Door, A Swiftly Tilting Planet.
I believe that if a parent reads to a child on a regular basis
SOMETHING of some merit whether it be pop-fiction or classic, that act
of reading will open the door to the imagination and that child in
turn will appreciate reading.
Just my two cents. :-)
Kim
G & G
I must say that I agree with Christy on this issue. There is a lot of
trash out there that I would certainly never choose to read for myself
or my children, but to simply throw out that statement that it is
worthless only because I consider it trash is pretty closed-minded of
me. For example, a lot of folks think anything written or spoken by
Rush Limbaugh is wonderful. Others think it is trash. But, we need to
hear or read what he has to say if only to know how to accurately form
our own opinion. Remember, we can learn something from every situation,
(reading or otherwise) even if what we learn is what we don't want.
And, in the end, learning the negative as well as the positive is what
helps our decision-makling ability to mature and makes us far more
rounded (healthily, I will add) than if we did not expose ourselves to
it. One thing I find amazing about a lot of well-meaning people is that
they only expose themselves to that with which they agree and then
present themselves as some sort of expert. Deeply religious and
political folks are the most notorious at this.
all for now.
Christy wrote:
>
> It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed to
> good
> > literature. With the frantic lifestyles that so many people choose to
> lead
> > today, they probably don't have the energy to focus on books that takes
> any
> > amount thought! Another factor is also coming into play. Many young
> > adults are not able to mentally process good literature.
>
> Who is anybody to decide what is good literature and what is not? It is
> somebody's right to decide for themselves. What's sad is that somebody can
> be as closed minded as that statement is, maybe too many adults are not
> mentally able to accept tastes that differ from theirs, i happen to think
> that many of the classics are excellent literature yet my boyfriend and
> brother find them to be useless, and prefer many of the modern authors,
> there is nothing wrong with that, it is a matter of opinion and a right.
>
> >
> I am in the
> > currently reading "Endangered Minds: Why Our Children Don't Think" by
> Jane
> > M. Healy--- what an eye-opener!
>
> Now that is good literature i am sure, i love when someone else does the
> thinking for you.....There is that frantic lifestyle taking toll on you
> again....
>
>
> This all reminds me of a topic of
> > discussion I have had with many parents of grade schoolers. There is a
> > philosophy among many parents and educators that as long as kids are
> > excited to read--- it doesn't matter what they are choosing to read.
> > Goosebumps being one of the questionable choices.
>
> Now for my view, a child should be exposed to a vast amount of knowledge
> and books, but if that child chooses to read goosebumps, they should be
> aloud, if you force a child to read anything what are the chances they will
> enjoy reading? how will they ever become their own person instead of mommy
> and daddy's clone? Exposing a child to things is extremely important, and
> letting them decide for themselves is just as important, if you forbid a
> child to read a book ie goosebumps, you are no better than people who are
> for censorship.
>
> It angers me to no end
> > that people are willing to give in to this mentality!
>
> i say the same for the mentality you seem to portray
>
> I have made it very
> > clear to my kids (2nd & Kindergarten) that there are soooo many great
> books
> > out there, why waste time reading Goosebumps! They have no problem with
> > this because I make sure that we pick good read alouds---
>
> Then that is fine if they have no problem with it, but if they want to read
> goosebumps, let them maybe after they read it they will not want to read
> another, but that way you are giving them their choice. A broad spectrum
> of books-from the trashy to the good is a good way to see many of the
> diversities in this world, a way to see the many things, good and bad that
> life has to offer. In a tv oriented society we are lucky that children
> still want to read, sometimes a child may have difficulty reading and give
> up on it so easily out of frustration, the only way that child is going to
> want to read is to be excited about the story, that is why educators and
> parents, believe in the philosphy you hate. the same goes for illeterate
> adults, it is alot easier to learn if they are excited about what they
> read, volunteer with an illeteracy class and see if your viewpoint remains
> the same.
>
> . Parents have to realize
> > that they can be very effective at helping their children to be good
> > readers of good books----they can't leave it to the schools (teachers are
> > doing their best---but they can't do it alone!).
>
> Parents also have to realize that they can be effective in every aspect of
> their child's life, including their individuality....
>
> What children want most
> > from their parents is their attention. What better way to spend time
> > together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great book!?!
>
> ahh i agree that children crave attention from their parents, and your
> suggestion is an excellent one but there are many others, none out-do the
> other, they are all important for a well rounded person.
>
> > My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read", the
> > next generation hardly has a chance!
>
> That is one of the most judgemental and prejudiced statements i have heard,
> i would like to see the research you have done on every person in the next
> generation and how pop-fiction is detrimental to there future, i am sure
> you have worked up an incredible study. of course the folks couldn't
> mentally absorb the fact that they were in a study...
>
> My favorite book ending is from
> > "Grapes Of Wrath"!
> >
>
> it is not my favorite but one of the best in my opinion
>
> christy
G & G
I agree! There are degrees of "good" in books. Some are very good some
are not so good. I also agree that reading the whole spectrum is better
than only focussing on one extreme or the other. All the while we
should remember that what I consider "good" doesn't make it so. Even if
all critics say something is "good" doesn't make it so. A good example
of this in art is the Seattle art museum has a canvas painted only
white, nothing else, displayed in their modern art section. Among all
the modern art objects they certainly could have had something other
than all white to display as "art." So, just because the "experts"
there consider it worthy of display doesn't mean it is "good." A lot of
experts can be fooled, too.
Shokkolat
Okay, here's my $ .02:
Kids today are reading way below their level. I came to the United States
from the West Indies when I was ten years old, and I entered the fifth
grade. Before deciding which class I should be placed into, I was called
into the principal's office and he shoved a book in my face and commanded
me to read from any page. I don't remember what book it was, but I
remember the raised eyebrows and the looks on the principal's face and
that of another teacher who was also in the office. To my surprise, I was
immediately placed in the honors classes, when I'd always thought that my
reading ability was just average or "normal" for someone my age. This is
not to toot my own horn but to sing the praises of parents who encourage
their children to read. I'd never even thought that the ability to read
with comprehension was anything significant until I was placed in classes
with students my own age and was constantly appalled at the excessive
typos, the stumbling over words, the inability to comprehend simple
passages that ran rampant among my classmates. And the fact is, its worse
today. During school, I worked in a clinic that represented clients whose
children had learning disabilities, and I had to visit lots of public
schools in the DC area. Not only are children not getting a decent
education, but many of the teachers don't seem to have been properly
trained either! Frankly, I think it appalling that they allow teachers
in the classroom who speak grammatically incorrect english!! (And I'm not
talking about ebonics either!). I sat in on a history class where the
teacher made statements which were factually incorrect, and was unable to
answer students' questions satisfactorily.
Therefore, I don't think the blame lies with the parents totally, but also
with incompetent teachers that are doing nothing but setting awful
examples for children.
I just want to say "Thanks Dad" for taking the time to sit and read with
me and making me read things that were above my level. What I didn't
understand, he always explained, and when I didn't understand the meaning
of a word, he sent me right to the dictionary. I think that was one of
the best examples that was set for me. And thanks to the teachers who
made us read Jane Eyre and Great Expectations in the 6th grade, when other
classes were still on books that they should have read the year before.
It cannot be gainsaid that parental involvement is key in raising a child
who loves to read. Its absolutely essential. I don't think one "clones"
a child by exposing him or her to a novel that the parent thinks is
worthwhile. The kid may hate the story, but in the process learn to
recognize good writing and read with discrimination in the future. I'm
sorry- whomever thinks that the Grishams, Steeles and Kings that sell a
million copies of ghostwritten material are just as worthwhile reading as
Morrison, Marquez and Kundera are just not as widely read as they ought to
be. And yes, I WILL take an elitist attitude as far as books are
concerned, because while there might be some dispute as to whether Bridges
of Madison County is trash or not, (and I would argue that it is) I don't
feel that there can be any argument as to which is the superior of The
Chamber and As I Lay Dying.
Regards,
-Shok
Tiffani Angus
On 19 May 1997, G & G wrote:
> > something else. Try "A Wrinkle In Time" instead of the latest "Sweet Valley
> > High" book.
> >
> as a children's book. It is a challenge for any adult and of no
> interest to the vast majority. I did find it challenging and
> interesting, but hardly what I would recommend as a solution for
> upgrading a child's reading material. And I would not made a general
> recommendaton for it for adults, either. It is a good book but any
> science subject has its place on the bookshelf of folks who have at
> least some passing interest in the subject, otherwise it will lie
> unfinished after only having the first few pages read.
I read "Wrinkle" when I was 12 and I still have all of my
limbs...it wasn't *that* hard. Just because it has to do with science does
not mean that it is only for "those with at least some passing interest in
the subject." How can a kid--or an adult for that matter--create interest
in a subject if he or she doesn't read about it first?? It isn't as if you
need to know about quantum physics to understand the book...give kids some
credit. Will this be taken one step further to the point that someone
can't read a book about, say, the Civil War because he or she doesn't know
anything about the war? That's how you learn about it--by reading. You
spark that first interest and the reader will then try to find every book
about that subject--both fiction and non-fiction.
Tiffani Angus
On 19 May 1997, G & G wrote:
> Engle and the other a science non-fiction by Hawking. In my earlier
> comment, I was referring to the latter.
In my reply I was referring to the former--I hadn't yet seen this
post. But hey, if someone wants to try to read Hawking, be my guest.
i.s...@bvirgin.net
Hi,
Not having any children of my own I can only speak from my own
personal experience as a child. I was brought up as a voracious
reader (but a terrible speller), I dont think my mother set out to do
this on purpose but she created the right environment. Anyway back to
the thread, I feel that I read classcal literature as a child because
no one pointed out what I should read. I was taken to libraries and
bookshops and was allowed to pick out what I wanted. It never occured
to me until much later that there was a difference in anyones eyes
between Dickens Great Expecations, Enid Blytons schools stories and
Spike Milligans poetry (I still would recommend Milligan).
George
Shokkolat
George wrote:
<snipped>
>It never occured
>to me until much later that there was a difference in >anyones eyes
>between Dickens Great Expecations, Enid Blytons schools >stories and
>Spike Milligans poetry (I still would recommend Milligan).
Hey! I remember Enid Blyton! I used to love her as a kid. When I moved
to the States though, and tried to find her books in bookstores, I got
odd, blank stares! Are you in England, George?
-Shok
Paul Baker
In article <5lqje1$hp1$3...@news8.gte.net>, G & G <gri...@gte.net> wrote:
>> something else. Try "A Wrinkle In Time" instead of the latest "Sweet Valley
>> High" book.
>>
>as a children's book. It is a challenge for any adult and of no
>interest to the vast majority. I did find it challenging and
>interesting, but hardly what I would recommend as a solution for
>upgrading a child's reading material. And I would not made a general
>recommendaton for it for adults, either. It is a good book but any
>science subject has its place on the bookshelf of folks who have at
>least some passing interest in the subject, otherwise it will lie
>unfinished after only having the first few pages read.
My son, age 11, is reading _A Wrinkle In Time_ right now. I have not
read it so I can not really give an opinion on it's complexity. Normally,
I wait until he has completed reading a book to discuss it with him. Is
it possible that it can be read well at different levels such as _The Catcher
In the Rye_ or _The Old Man and the Sea_?
Paul
dsBlaner
> >> High" book.
> >>
> >as a children's book. It is a challenge for any adult and of no
> >interest to the vast majority. I did find it challenging and
> >interesting, but hardly what I would recommend as a solution for
> >upgrading a child's reading material. And I would not made a general
> >recommendaton for it for adults, either. It is a good book but any
> >science subject has its place on the bookshelf of folks who have at
> >least some passing interest in the subject, otherwise it will lie
> >unfinished after only having the first few pages read.
>
> My son, age 11, is reading _A Wrinkle In Time_ right now. I have not
> read it so I can not really give an opinion on it's complexity. Normally,
> I wait until he has completed reading a book to discuss it with him. Is
> it possible that it can be read well at different levels such as _The Catcher
> In the Rye_ or _The Old Man and the Sea_?
>
> Paul
I thoroughly enjoyed a "Wrinkle in Time" when I read it at age 12 and
when I read it about 15 years later. It is no more complicated that you
make it to be. As a matter of perspective, I recall it made me more
interested in the world around me. It made me think! I definitely
recommend it for curious 11 - 13 year olds. Obviously, not everyone
feels the same, so make up your mind yourself.
Blaner
Brett J. Douville
Brenda or John L. <bl...@bright.net> wrote in article
<33812D...@bright.net>...
> > >
> > >>It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed
to good
> > >>literature.
> > >
> > >(snipped similar comment)
> > >
> > >>My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read",
the
> > >>next generation hardly has a chance!
>
>
> Okay, I'll throw a penny's worth into the pot.... Let me guess, the only
> good books are great literature, (determined by some intelectual), the
> only good music is classical, and the only good on televison is on
> PBS. I have always believed that freedom of choice generally leads to
> better choices, entertainment and escapism can also be educational.
>
> Let me pose this question. Were the so called greatest writers
> considered great in their own time? Were any of them looked down on as
> being insubstational hacks? As far as I know, time is the only factor
> which determines greatness be it leaders, writers, composers, artists.
>
> Brenda L.
Let me pose this question: What books/authors do you think are looked down
upon in our time but will be considered "great" fifty years hence? 100
years hence? 500?
I've not yet thought about it enough to proffer my own opinion but would
love to hear what people have to say.
B-
i.s...@virgin.net
shok...@aol.com (Shokkolat) wrote:
Hi,
I'm in England now, although I'm originally from Northern Irealnd. I
hadn't realised unitl the question just how englishy the books I
mentioned are!
As for the Enid Blyton school stories, I can't imagine now what I
liked about them. There were very few parallels between privileged,
english, girls boarding schools and growing up in rural Northern
Ireland. My only theory is that it was some sort of subconsious joy
at finding series of books were women were the main (if not the only)
characters. I'm still a bit like that, truth to be told.
Spike Milligan is still one of the most enjoyable poets! though, even
after all this time.
George
Steven Sim
You thread very near the edge with your comments. I beg to differ. I
would presume you're from the United States whose shinning Constitution
guarentees Freedom of Speech.
Probably the current generation in your society lacks the certain
discipline giving rise to what is supposedly a chaotic civilisation. And
at the same time give rise to people who do not understand the nature of
chaos and would strike out at all cost to maintain what they are
familiar with.
I come from a tightly governed society whose government brooks no
nonsense. The current situation around this country demands the
discipline or we would not have suceeded as we have.
That is the government line.
Ironically, it has intensify the need in me for greater freedom.
You never know what the future brings. And never knowing the future, how
can you correctly predict what is good and what is bad, what is
effective and what is not? The flip side of the argument is that many
people will "abuse" this principle.
But the longer term effect far out weighs the short term chaos. And
chaos there will be. But there is no other way.
That is nature after all. Variation in the genes will provide the only
effective deterrent against a disease that may wipe of 99% of the
population.
Similarly, variation in mental thoughts and beliefs may provide what may
be the sole deterrent against God knows what disaster our civilisation
may yet face.
You may think that your comments are perfectly justified or you may
truly intend for the children to have a better mental thought processe
and yet not restrict their individual freedom.Your intentions may be
completely genuine.
But the best of intentions often produce the worst results. Such is the
nature of most paradox, including mine.
You tread very close to the edge with your beliefs. Sooner or later, you
may accidentally step over to the other side.
But then, you may also be absolutely correct. Though to the core of my
being, I cannot perceive how this can be. Nevertheless, were it up to
me, I would still defend your right to say your piece.
I hope however, that you would listen to mine.
We are not God to dictate our beliefs to other people. Who knows, may be
the Muslim fanatics in the Middle East may be right after all. Can you
say with absolute authority that they are not? If so, you must have
powers and sight beyond that of mere mortals.
I have Christians and Cathloic friends here who proclaim that their
passport to heaven is a simple belief in Jesus Christ, yet the very same
people exhibit behaviour and prejudices that may put Hilter to shame.
But then again, they may be right. After all, these very people are
University graduates who have had a formal education from a renowed
educational institution. Who am I to gainsay them?
We who are learnt and educated, have the responsibilities to recognize
and appreciate this world.
BUT NOT TO INTERFERE.
Because the more we know, the less we understand.
And therein lies the greatest danger.
Shielded and unseen.
Best Regards
Shutterbug
Kimberly Powell
When I was in the third grade, my teacher read aloud to us from
the entire collection of the Narnia Chronicles. She would read
a bit each day. It took us the whole school year to finish
them. But, even today, they remain in my mind as wonderful
books. I only hope that my child will share the interest, and
want to read good books, even though they are pretty old!
Kimberly
JLiebetrau
Shutterburg, seems you have about six "other hands".
Frey E Talavera
G & G wrote:
>
> > something else. Try "A Wrinkle In Time" instead of the latest "Sweet Valley
> > High" book.
> >
> as a children's book. It is a challenge for any adult and of no
> interest to the vast majority. I did find it challenging and
> interesting, but hardly what I would recommend as a solution for
> upgrading a child's reading material. And I would not made a general
> recommendaton for it for adults, either. It is a good book but any
> science subject has its place on the bookshelf of folks who have at
> least some passing interest in the subject, otherwise it will lie
> unfinished after only having the first few pages read.
Ahhh ...but you see if the child gets "only pre-digested reading
material" (lower level or up to his her understanding level reading
material) It won't challenge them to take the next step.
For example I read first about Achilles and Paris in a magazine for kids
... from there I jumped to "THE ILLIAD", and progressed to "THE ODISSEY"
and just because the original magazine left enough "holes in the weave"
that it got me interested.
I was 9 years old at the time and my mom was extremely and pleasantly
surprised to find out about it when a University proffessor sitting next
to me in the bus looked over my shoulder as I was going over THE ILLIAD
to crossreference some obscure point in THE ODISSEY and started asking
me questions about it to see if I was "faking it".
So the trick is in supplying reading of "any type with references to
broader subject coached in such way that kids don't notice they are
being "pushed" to explore other books.
Frey E. Talavera
roca...@bellsouth.net
P.S. I got interested in Latin (although in a passing way) after
reading a couple of books of sci fiction wich included fragments of
mottos in the aforementioned language. };>
AJA
I read a lot of new books. As a
>writer and bookseller, it's part of the job. No, good books aren't just the
>classics. There are great writers out there right now, but most of them
>aren't getting the attention.
Good stuff snipped for space.
But, I wouldn't expect Grisham to win
>the Nobel Prize for Literature any time soon.
>
>Bryce
Dear Bryce,
As a writer and bookseller, et al, would you name the great writers
out there not getting the attention and titles please!
All the best,
Ann
AJA
You were so lucky, Kimberly!
Do you know that today in many schools the Narnia Chronicles are
banned as too occult- presumably because of the 'pagan' images
including talking animals!! One reads 'real' stories now! What does
that do to imagination and creativity in children, not to mention the
wonder of reading in general as a transcendent experience?
All the best,
Ann
Dumont
In ahne...@cybernex.net (AJA) writes:
>
>As a writer and bookseller, et al, would you name the great writers
>out there not getting the attention and titles please!
Gladly:
Daniel Akst--St. Burl's Obituary
Douglas Coupland--Shampoo Planet
David Foster Wallace--Broom Of The System, and Infinite Jest (okay, it
got some media attention, but it never became a best seller)
Paul Auster--New York Trilogy, Music Of Chance
C.N. Hetzner--In The War For Peace
Sherman Alexie--The Lone Ranger And Tonto Fistfight in Heavan (His
second novel Reservation Blues got some attention, but he's
probably as well known as Wallace above)
I also think Joyce Carol Oates deserves more attention, as well as Roy
Lewis and T. Corhaggesen Boyle.
Of course, these are only my opinions, but I'd say they could blow any
bestseller out of the water!
Bryce
Dumont
In "Christy" <khry...@bellsouth.net> writes:
>
>
>as i do not have time to write i cannot respond to your message in
it's
>entirety, i am extremely familiar with hemmingway and steinbeck.
although
>not doestoekvy, but i do not find them to be realistic either, fiction
is
>just fiction, what happens around you is real, it is simple as that.
Now, I agree that fiction is fiction, but I'm more inclined to a novel
of a man searching for peace in his life (take Siddhartha, for example)
than a novel of one man fighting both the mafia and the CIA, and
single-handedly defeating them both an moving to some Caribean island
living the life of a millionaire off of the money he imbeseled from his
old mafia-influenced Law Firm. (if you didn't get that, it was a
reference to Grisham's The Firm) Fiction or no, the former is much more
true to life than the latter.
Bryce
AJA
On 22 May 1997 16:15:34 GMT, wdu...@ix.netcom.com(Dumont) wrote:
>In ahne...@cybernex.net (AJA) writes:
>>
>>Do you know that today in many schools the Narnia Chronicles are
>>banned as too occult- presumably because of the 'pagan' images
>>including talking animals!! One reads 'real' stories now! What does
>>that do to imagination and creativity in children, not to mention the
>>wonder of reading in general as a transcendent experience?
>
>Yes, but wasn't C.S. Lewis one of the most highly acclaimed religion
>writers of his time?? "Mere Christianity" is still a pretty good
>seller. Kind of seems a bit odd to me.
>
>Bryce
Yes! That's the point exactly. Folks who are in a position to approve
or disapprove of books in schools are certainly not infallible (to be
kind about it!). It's those damnable talking animals, and perhaps the
flying ones with hooves! Symbolism is not considered proper stuff for
kids in many schools. Is the metaphor next on the suspect list? I've
asked high school students to name a myth and been answered with blank
stares.
All the best,
Ann
C. Webb
I am replying to Shok from the West Indies. I understand your
frustration with incompetent teaching, but believe that in the States it
may be because the profession is not attractive to the very bright and
talented. If one wants good teachers, one must be willing to pay them
well. I understand that teachers' wages are very low in the States. In
Canada, this is not the case. Kindergarten teachers can aspire to make as
much as $70 000 per year. Because of this excellent compensation, not to
mention benefits and pension plans, the teaching profession attracts
talented individuals who can do good jobs.
Candace
Dumont
In ahne...@cybernex.net (AJA) writes:
>
>Yes! That's the point exactly. Folks who are in a position to approve
>or disapprove of books in schools are certainly not infallible (to be
>kind about it!). It's those damnable talking animals, and perhaps the
>flying ones with hooves! Symbolism is not considered proper stuff for
>kids in many schools. Is the metaphor next on the suspect list? I've
>asked high school students to name a myth and been answered with blank
>stares.
Yeah, it's sometimes the books that would expose a child to what the
real world is like (Hmm, I think the real world pretty much takes care
of that already) or books that might be *impliying* something that
strict schools don't like. I don't think any books were banned at any
school I've attened. Although, I have read most of the books that were
banned in other schools! Hmm, myth? Okay, I'm not a high school
student, but how about the Myth Of Sysiphus? Not only a man condemed to
a repitious afterlife, but a good essay by Camus!
Bryce
>All the best,
>Ann
Tom and Dana
Christy <khry...@bellsouth.net> wrote in article
<01bc62a8$d0753020$780835cf@christy>...
>
> It is sad that so many people prefer to read pop-fiction as opposed to
> good
> > literature. With the frantic lifestyles that so many people choose to
> lead
> > today, they probably don't have the energy to focus on books that takes
> any
> > amount thought! Another factor is also coming into play. Many young
> > adults are not able to mentally process good literature.
>
> Who is anybody to decide what is good literature and what is not? It is
> somebody's right to decide for themselves.
*****Let me rephrase--- many young people have a difficult time reading and
understanding literature that has complex sentance structures, difficult
syntax--- components of writing that in many cases separates "good
literature"
in a technical sense--- from "bad" literature. An excerpt from
_Endangered Minds_, by Jane Healy uses the example of---- "The woman who
lives next door brought the flowers that are on the table. VS A woman
brought the flowers. They are on the table. She lives next door." It is
clear that the first sentance is more difficult to process mentally that
the series of short sentances. The book also states, "These fine points
of language take the person beyond the threshhold of the visual world,"
says Priscilla Vail (author of _Clear and Lively Writing_ and _Smart Kids
with School Problems_). "Without language, we're limited to our visual
horizon; language allows cjhildren to move beyond that hidden machinery of
cause and effect. If parents want their kids to do well in school or get
into a good college, they have to start with language. A rich vocabulary
is the foundation, but the ability to describe, compare, and categorize
with language is what leads to our ability to think in analogy---that's the
highest level, and it's also what is teated on the SATs!" Using
documented brain research and numerous studies, this fascinating book that
takes this information and uses it to try to
discover why educators are not able to teach children using the same
methods as 15 years ago. I do not let other people do my thinking for me.
I use the knowledge of professionals to better inform myself and create my
own opinions. Preparing my kids for the future is my job as a
parent----and i want to know all that I can to help me to decide how I want
to do this. I believe that encouraging my kids to read books that are
enriching their vocabulary, etc. is the right thing to do.
What's sad is that somebody can
> be as closed minded as that statement is, maybe too many adults are not
> mentally able to accept tastes that differ from theirs, i happen to think
> that many of the classics are excellent literature yet my boyfriend and
> brother find them to be useless, and prefer many of the modern authors,
> there is nothing wrong with that, it is a matter of opinion and a right.
*****I accept that people have many tastes--- I only wish that more people
would
take the time---as you do-- to read literature that is thought provoking
as opposed to being purely entertaining. I think it allows people to
contemplate issues that pop-fiction doesn't inspire. If you didn't see it,
the original thread contemplates why pop-fiction is more widely read than
non-pop-fiction (I don't want to say classics---because there are many
current authors that are wonderful-----I can't call it "good literature"
because obviously I was misunderstood----so I'll call it non-pop-fiction).
My answer once again is twofold. I think that people might not have the
energy to focus on reading anything more than lpop-fiction or that they are
not mentally capable of processing it.
> >
> I am in the
> > currently reading "Endangered Minds: Why Our Children Don't Think" by
> Jane
> > M. Healy--- what an eye-opener!
>
> Now that is good literature i am sure, i love when someone else does the
> thinking for you.....There is that frantic lifestyle taking toll on you
> again....
>
> This all reminds me of a topic of
> > discussion I have had with many parents of grade schoolers. There is a
> > philosophy among many parents and educators that as long as kids are
> > excited to read--- it doesn't matter what they are choosing to read.
> > Goosebumps being one of the questionable choices.
>
> Now for my view, a child should be exposed to a vast amount of knowledge
> and books, but if that child chooses to read goosebumps, they should be
> aloud, if you force a child to read anything what are the chances they
will
> enjoy reading? how will they ever become their own person instead of
mommy
> and daddy's clone? Exposing a child to things is extremely important, and
> letting them decide for themselves is just as important, if you forbid a
> child to read a book ie goosebumps, you are no better than people who are
> for censorship.
>
*****I do not force my children to read anything! We decide together which
books I will read to them----if they happen to want a Goosebumps book-- I
usually say something like "I'm not real crazy about that book---I think
we would enjoy "James & The Giant Peach" because the idea of being in a
peach sounds exciting to me---- but the choice is yours". And we have
bought
books that I am not crazy about. I am trying to teach my children that we
all have different opinions, and it is useful to get input from others in
order to help form your own opinion --but you alone are responsible your
opinions that ultimately will be reflected in the choices you make. I
believe it is Jurgen Habermas in the book, _Legitimation Crisis_ that
adresses this---I believe he has a specicific name for this process---but
it has been years since I read this book.
And I guess that my kids have enjoyed my suggestions so much in the
past--- they usually choose either what I suggest or something else
altogether. And by the way--- my 8 1/2 year old loves to read---- at
school she is one of two children who always chooses to pull a chapter book
out of her desk during free time. I am very respectful of my children's
opinions--- but I also believe that as a parent of a 6 & 8 year old--- I
must be sure that what they are choosing from is appropriate for their age.
Would you think it appropriate to let my kids watch a PG-13 movie? Books
do not give parents thses guidelines---we need to make our own.
> It angers me to no end
> > that people are willing to give in to this mentality!
It does make me angry that parents don't make the effort to expand their
childrens horizons beyond goosebump & babysitter type books----as you say--
they should be exposed to many things. I would never agree to banning any
type of literature---but we all are entitled to like & dislike books. And
as a parent of young children, I would rather they read something with
more substance than some books offer.
> i say the same for the mentality you seem to portray
>
>
> I have made it very
> > clear to my kids (2nd & Kindergarten) that there are soooo many great
> books
> > out there, why waste time reading Goosebumps! They have no problem
with
> > this because I make sure that we pick good read alouds---
>
>
> Then that is fine if they have no problem with it, but if they want to
read
> goosebumps, let them maybe after they read it they will not want to read
> another, but that way you are giving them their choice.
*****As I said, I do not forbid goosebumps, etc.---- the final decision is
theirs.
A broad spectrum
> of books-from the trashy to the good is a good way to see many of the
> diversities in this world, a way to see the many things, good and bad
that
> life has to offer.
*****I agree---for a junior high student & older---but I still think that
there
are so many well written childrens book out there that deal with
"diversities" I don't like to waste our time on what I consider poorly
written books.
In a tv oriented society we are lucky that children
> still want to read, sometimes a child may have difficulty reading and
give
> up on it so easily out of frustration, the only way that child is going
to
> want to read is to be excited about the story, that is why educators and
> parents, believe in the philosphy you hate.
the same goes for illeterate adults, it is alot easier to learn if they are
excited about what they
> read, volunteer with an illeteracy class and see if your viewpoint
remains the same.
*****I actually agree with your statement----But the majority of kids do
not have reading disabilities--These are the kids that should be encouraged
to read something besides a steady diet of goosebumps & babysitter type
books. The mentality that I'm angry with--- parents of children (that can
read) that do not take the time and energy to help kids see that there are
lots of exciting books besides what's popular. As for the illiterate
adults---that's exactly what I think we as a society have the power to
correct.
> . Parents have to realize
> > that they can be very effective at helping their children to be good
> > readers of good books----they can't leave it to the schools (teachers
are
> > doing their best---but they can't do it alone!).
>
> Parents also have to realize that they can be effective in every aspect
of
> their child's life, including their individuality....
*****Agreed.
>
> What children want most
> > from their parents is their attention. What better way to spend time
> > together than having Mom or Dad read a chapter aloud from a great
book!?!
>
>
> ahh i agree that children crave attention from their parents, and your
> suggestion is an excellent one but there are many others, none out-do the
> other, they are all important for a well rounded person.
*****I agree. The "what better way to ........" is a common phrase many
people use to stress a important point that is not necessarily meant to be
taken as literally as you have taken it. I did not say it is the best way
to spend time with your kids in general----in the context of this topic
(developing good language and reading skills)-- I believe it is the best
way to spend time with your kids.
>
> > My fear is------If so many adults consider pop-fiction a "good read",
the
> > next generation hardly has a chance!
>
> That is one of the most judgemental and prejudiced statements i have
heard,
> i would like to see the research you have done on every person in the
next
> generation and how pop-fiction is detrimental to there future, i am sure
> you have worked up an incredible study. of course the folks couldn't
> mentally absorb the fact that they were in a study...
*****Let me clarify--- if adults themselves do not value non-pop-fiction---
there is a good chance that their children will not value it either.
Because I feel there are many benefits to people reading non-pop-fiction,
this possible senario saddens me. It is not pop-fiction that is
detrimental to someones future---it is the lack of skills required to read
non-pop-fiction that can be detrimental to ones future. Please read the
_Endangered Minds_ book to see piles of research to support this.
>
> My favorite book ending is from
> > "Grapes Of Wrath"!
> >
>
> it is not my favorite but one of the best in my opinion
>
> Thank you for your opinions--- I have enjoyed excercising my gray matter.
I believe we are on the same side of the fence. I am not the book
banning, close minded bigot you believe me to be. Out of curiousity----
how old are you? If you have children, how old are they?
> christy
>
>
>
Gen Lee66
You don't have to quit reading to and discussing with--just because the
kids can read on their own. I still read nightly to my 13 and 16 year
olds--even though they are good readers themselves--and it is probably the
best part of our relationship,
We have read many of the classics and yes--even Jurassic Park--which does
have some redeeming qualities. I picked this habit up from my parents, who
developed me into such an addict that I am considering a 12 step program.
Try this with your older kids--you'll be amazed at the discussion value in
the years they won't otherwise talk to you. Looking for more suggestions
for reading aloud.
James Mackay
> Preparing my kids for the future is my job as a
>> parent----and i want to know all that I can to help me to decide how I
>want
>> to do this. I believe that encouraging my kids to read books that are
>> enriching their vocabulary, etc. is the right thing to do.
>>
>
>i am happy to know that there are parents who still believe in this and
>practice this.
>
>>
>> *****I accept that people have many tastes--- I only wish that more
>people
>> would
>> take the time---as you do-- to read literature that is thought provoking
if i read some trashy romance novel in between i welcome
>the second book with open arms and a clear mind. i believe that there are
>alot of other factors that go into someone who reads pop-fiction. some
>people just want a break every now and again, and do not forget that aside
>from the classics where do you find good literature? when i go to the book
>store i spend hours there,
>> My answer once again is twofold. I think that people might not have the
>> energy to focus on reading anything more than lpop-fiction or that they
>are
>> not mentally capable of processing it.
>
>that is a very broad judgement i think more accurately is that possibly
>people get into non pop fiction and cannot put it down, with limited time
>on people's hands they cannot afford that,
Um....
Isn't the whole point that if you are constantly encouraging your kids to
read "non-pop-fiction" (I think this is a very good distinction), they
will almost certainly end up reading pop-ficition as well, and enjoying
it all the more because it's their choice and goes against their parents'
choice? It would be an unusual child indeed who preferred *only* to
read the great classics & modern difficult works :)
>> > Thank you for your opinions--- I have enjoyed excercising my gray
>matter.
Exactly. That's what you seem to be arguing against, in some ways.
JAMES
RustySpork
I am a 14 year old who agrees fully. Like the author (so that's what he's
calling himself?) R.L. Stine, he keeps manafacturing those
poor-excuse-for-literature books. I was reading books over that level in
the 2nd grade. My fellow classmates consider me weird for reading books
over 200 pages. They don't read classics because in their feeble brains
classic is synonymous with boring. Not quite.
AndrwPiety
>Let me pose this question. Were the so called greatest writers
>considered great in their own time? Were any of them looked down on as
>being insubstational hacks? As far as I know, time is the only factor
>which determines greatness be it leaders, writers, composers, artists.
Do you have any special diet hints for Great-Writers-In-Waiting? Or
they're maybe supposed to eat pencil shavings? ;)
Andy Piety
Dumont
So, I assue this would mean that I was not wrong in saying that the
reading level of most teenagers is far below what they should be
reading. Thank you for giving an example, and for giving me proof that
there are still some kids growing up that do like to read good books as
opposed to quick reads.
I'm surprised that people find it odd that you read books over 200
pages in length. Of course, people are still surprised that I read
books that are over 1000 pages long, and I'm 19, so I guess the thread
continues (sadly) throughout life.
Bryce
Interested in sophisticated fun? You, hubby, girl
friends. The more the merrier. Get in touch with Kirby,
through WASTE only, Box 7391, L.A.
--Thomas Pynchon
VESTA STEVENSON
DUMONT wrote to ALL, about Re: the ending of a novel,received 19:08
06/03/97
D> @FROM :wdu...@ix.netcom.com
D> @N UMSGID :<5n1q39$8...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>
D> @N UNEWSGR:01alt.books.reviews
D> N Path:
D> news2.planetc.com!news.planetc.com!news-
out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.int
D> ernetmci.com!cpk-news From: wdu...@ix.netcom.com(Dumont)
D> Newsgroups: alt.books.reviews
D> Subject: Re: the ending of a novel
D> Date: 3 Jun 1997 19:08:25 GMT
D> Organization: Netcom
D> Lines: 27
D> Message-ID: <5n1q39$8...@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com>
D> References: <01bc679c$063f44a0$Loca...@Netsync.netsync.net>
D> <19970602172...@ladder02.new NNTP-Posting-Host:
D> sjx-ca68-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 03 12:08:25 PM PDT
D> 1997
D> In rusty...@aol.com (RustySpork) writes:
D> >
D> >I am a 14 year old who agrees fully. Like the author (so that's what
D> he's >calling himself?) R.L. Stine, he keeps manafacturing those
D> >poor-excuse-for-literature books. I was reading books over that
D> level in >the 2nd grade. My fellow classmates consider me weird for
D> reading books >over 200 pages. They don't read classics because in
D> their feeble brains >classic is synonymous with boring. Not quite.
D> So, I assue this would mean that I was not wrong in saying that the
D> reading level of most teenagers is far below what they should be
D> reading. Thank you for giving an example, and for giving me proof
D> that there are still some kids growing up that do like to read good
D> books as opposed to quick reads.
D> I'm surprised that people find it odd that you read books over 200
D> pages in length. Of course, people are still surprised that I read
D> books that are over 1000 pages long, and I'm 19, so I guess the
D> thread continues (sadly) throughout life.
People are always surprised at what others do that they don't do
themselves.
Air Canada\Pionairs http://www.mortimer.com/acra/pionairs/
Mailto:vesta.s...@bbc.org Between-Ourselves NetLetter
---
* CMPQwk #1.42* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY