Carrot and Angua's children
Maria Jones
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
It is very likely that Carrot and Angua will marry and have
children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility in
FOC and T5E.
Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
whole litter. This means that there will be not one, but several heirs
to the throne. So if ever the question of having a king of AM arises,
which one will it be? The eldest? But they are all the same age,
aren't they? Who inherits the sword?
Another point is that genetics on the Discworld, as mentioned by
the DW companion, isn't straightforward and is influenced by beliefs,
myths, legends, magic, etc. E.g. Ysabell was Death's adopted daughter,
yet her daughter Susan inherited some of his powers.
The whole legend was that the true heir to the throne of AM would
come to the city in its time of need. It was assumed that he would
automatically become king as well. Who would imagine that instead, he
would become a policeman, settle down, marry a werewolf and have kids?
The whole point of an heir to the throne is the romance and
mystery of it. As mentioned in WA, he has to be mysterious,
charismatic, come to the city in the prime of his life (and not
before), and have a sword, birthmark, and etc. because it is romantic
and suits the story. An heir to the throne who was born and brought up
in a middle class policeman's home in AM to a werewolf policewoman
sounds ridiculous and defies all conventional fairytale and legendary
rules. So, if such a person is born, he may not qualify for kingship
at all. The may not even have birthmarks.
On the other hand, the first werewolf ever was himself a king
called Lycaun, who incurred the wrath of Zeus and was cursed to become
a wolf. That is where the term lycanthrope (meaning werewolf) comes
from. So maybe a werewolf as king isn't so shocking after all.
The kids will certainly have a hard time growing up and coming to
terms with their ancestry. Considering the prejudices prevalent in AM
against werewolves, they may not get any of the respect Carrot had.
They may not find any school ready to accept them or any parents
willing to let their children play with them. It's an interesting
subject for a book that shows how tough growing up in AM really is and
their struggle for acceptance in society.
The Uberwald werewolves and Ramtop dwarves will probably dislike
them as well. There might even be a strange version of Little Red
Riding Hood in which a girl, when her werewolf grandmother attacks
her, hits back with a dwarfish axe and a loaf of dwarf bread!
Wouldn't it be interesting if the school, which Susan teaches in
accepts them? Mr. Vimes' kid might also attend the same school.
------- Maria
William Black
"Maria Jones" <goto...@politician.com> wrote in message
news:ad5cab77.02100...@posting.google.com...
> THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> It is very likely that Carrot and Angua will marry and have
> children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility in
> FOC and T5E.
> Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
> whole litter. This means that there will be not one, but several heirs
> to the throne. So if ever the question of having a king of AM arises,
> which one will it be? The eldest? But they are all the same age,
> aren't they? Who inherits the sword?
Something tells me that this isn't going to be a problem.
> The whole legend was that the true heir to the throne of AM would
> come to the city in its time of need. It was assumed that he would
> automatically become king as well. Who would imagine that instead, he
> would become a policeman, settle down, marry a werewolf and have kids?
That's the whole point.
It is better developed in Michael Moorcock's 'Wizardry and Wild Romance'
which discusses at some length the idea of the hereditary possession of
weapons as a basis for a sound system of government.
The movie 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' has a similar section.
For the last twenty years sections of the British literary establishment
have attacked the 'predestination by ownership of artefact idea' and reduced
it to the joke that Terry Pratchet has exploited to its full extent.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
James Russell Kuyper Jr.
> THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> It is very likely that Carrot and Angua will marry and have
> children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility in
> FOC and T5E.
> Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
I'd say "possible" rather than "likely". She spends far more time in
human form than in wolf form. I'd guess that she's more likely to have a
human-style single birth, rather than a large number. Even more likely,
is an intermediate number, say 2 or 3.
> ... This means that there will be not one, but several heirs
> to the throne.
Keep in mind that Terry has never actually said that Carrot is the true
heir to the throne. Terry has dropped lots of hints, and there's an
awful lot of people in AM who are convinced that Carrot is the heir.
However, for precisely that reason, I suspect that Terry is planning to
have it turn out that Carrot is something else, something quite different.
However, in order to discuss the rest of your message, I'll assume that
he is the true heir to the throne.
We don't know in detail what the laws of succession in AM are, so this
question is technically unanswerable. However, the whole purpose of such
laws is to ensure that only ONE person qualifies as the legitimate heir.
If more than one person appears to qualify, than the laws need to be
re-written to disambiguate them.
In this case, if AM laws follow the same typical patterns as on our
planet, then the heir will either be the eldest child, or the eldest
male child, depending upon how sexist the laws are.
> ... So if ever the question of having a king of AM arises,
> which one will it be? The eldest? But they are all the same age,
> aren't they?
No, they would not all be the same age. Someone would have to come out
first. Even if Angua were of a species where the birth canal was wide
enough to allow two or more through at once, they'd be extremely
unlikely to come out perfectly synchronized - there would be at least a
few femto-seconds between them. If they came out so close together that
the midwife/doctor couldn't decide who came first, they'd still be
assigned an arbitrary birth order, just to resolve such issues.
...
> The kids will certainly have a hard time growing up and coming to
> terms with their ancestry. Considering the prejudices prevalent in AM
> against werewolves, they may not get any of the respect Carrot had.
> They may not find any school ready to accept them or any parents
> willing to let their children play with them.
How could anyone disrespect Carrot's children? He might hear about it,
and get unhappy - and no one wants to make Carrot unhappy. Not because
they're afraid of his anger, but simply because EVERYONE likes Carrot.
Now, I'm assuming that he'll be there while his children are growing up.
Once he's dead, they will no longer be protected by his charisma.
However, I suspect that his heir will have the same charisma.
Belsambar
news:anmno0$rfq$1...@knossos.btinternet.com:
> It is better developed in Michael Moorcock's 'Wizardry and Wild
> Romance' which discusses at some length the idea of the hereditary
> possession of weapons as a basis for a sound system of government.
>
> The movie 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail' has a similar section.
"Strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for supreme
government! Supreme Executive Power derives from a mandate from the masses,
not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
My all time favourite movie-scene!
(I just bought the DVD and am still suffering from after pains in my laugh
muscles...)
TTFN,
B.
ABTH-villain. Python-adept
Keith Ray
"William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The whole legend was that the true heir to the throne of AM would
> > come to the city in its time of need. It was assumed that he would
> > automatically become king as well. Who would imagine that instead, he
> > would become a policeman, settle down, marry a werewolf and have kids?
>
> That's the whole point.
>
> It is better developed in Michael Moorcock's 'Wizardry and Wild Romance'
> which discusses at some length the idea of the hereditary possession of
> weapons as a basis for a sound system of government.
Didn't Nobby actually have some artifacts that (if inherited, rather
than stolen) would make him legitimate upper class, if not King material?
--
C. Keith Ray
Alec Cawley
> THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> The whole legend was that the true heir to the throne of AM would
> come to the city in its time of need. It was assumed that he would
> automatically become king as well.
And this assumption may be wrong - PTerry *loves* debunking incorrect
assumptions. Maybe what AM needs is not a king but a good copper - to
rescue Vimes from the gutter by giving him something to live up to, and to
inspire the rest of the Watch. The days of kings are past, but the days of
honest policing are just beginning. And the family chosen by some
incrutable fate to lead AM (albeit, in the case of the last keng,
extaordinarily badly) returns in the formneeded to do the job.
> Who would imagine that instead, he
> would become a policeman, settle down, marry a werewolf and have kids?
> The whole point of an heir to the throne is the romance and
> mystery of it. As mentioned in WA, he has to be mysterious,
> charismatic, come to the city in the prime of his life (and not
> before), and have a sword, birthmark, and etc. because it is romantic
> and suits the story. An heir to the throne who was born and brought up
> in a middle class policeman's home in AM to a werewolf policewoman
> sounds ridiculous and defies all conventional fairytale and legendary
> rules. So, if such a person is born, he may not qualify for kingship
> at all. The may not even have birthmarks.
But the whole problem goes away if Carrot remains a Copper. A whole litter
of Carrot and Angua children/pups could be employed in policing AM and (as
described in T5E) other cities. Age wouldn't matter at all - you can be
sure that Carrot will promote on merit, not age, gender or species.
More interesting is the question of who succeeds Vetinari. We don't
actually know what mechanism there is for selecting new Patricians - though
The Night Watch may tell us more. But whatever the process is, it is
reasonable to think that Vetinari will rig it according to his needs. He is
not stupid enough to believe himself immortal, and appears to have no
children. Of course, he *might* just call on Carrott, as Franco dis on Juan
Carlos in Spain. But that doesn't seem to me to have much dramatic
possibility. So who will he line up to follow him?
--
@lec Å awley
Stevie D
THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> It is very likely that Carrot and Angua will marry and have
> children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility
> in FOC and T5E.
>
> Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
> whole litter. This means that there will be not one, but several
> heirs to the throne. So if ever the question of having a king of AM
> arises, which one will it be? The eldest? But they are all the same
> age, aren't they? Who inherits the sword?
In any case of primogenitureน, every second counts. If now, male twins
were born where one would be the heir to the throne, it would be the
one that popped out first that got the title. I see no reason for it
to be different with puppies. *But*, as the human in Angua is very
much dominant over the wolf, if she and Carrot got together I would
imagine they are much more likely to have children than puppies.
น When the first-born inherits the title/money/house/whatever...
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Morpheus
news:1416136.k...@aleccawley.com...
Carrot is a possibility but I would guess Vimes (with Carrot as backup).
Vetinari seems to keep piling more titles and authority on Vimes over
successive books and it's been said that the best person to have in charge
is one that doesn't want the job.
Morpheus
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
> It is very likely that Carrot and Angua will marry and have
> children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility in
> FOC and T5E.
> Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
> whole litter. This means that there will be not one, but several heirs
> to the throne. So if ever the question of having a king of AM arises,
> which one will it be? The eldest? But they are all the same age,
> aren't they? Who inherits the sword?
Would a werewolf king even be accepted? In FOC, Dragon King of Arms chose
Nobby as his King candidate because of the possibility that Carrot would
produce werewolf children. There would probably be a lot of resistance to
the idea of an undead as monarch.
Beth Winter
I think the reason he discounted Carrot was because he and Angua could
have "puppies" - which in the light of T5E I'm inclined to interpret as
wolf-side yennorks, unable to assume human shape. This of course would
prevent them from assuming the throne... then again, this *is*
Ankh-Morpork we're talking about ^.^;
--
Beth Winter
The Discworld Compendium <http://www.extenuation.net/disc/>
"To absent friends, lost loves, old gods and the season of mists."
-- Neil Gaiman
Alec Cawley
> "Alec Cawley" <al...@cawley.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1416136.k...@aleccawley.com...
>> species.
>>
>> More interesting is the question of who succeeds Vetinari. We don't
>> actually know what mechanism there is for selecting new Patricians -
> though
>> The Night Watch may tell us more. But whatever the process is, it is
>> reasonable to think that Vetinari will rig it according to his needs. He
> is
>> not stupid enough to believe himself immortal, and appears to have no
>> children. Of course, he *might* just call on Carrott, as Franco dis on
> Juan
>> Carlos in Spain. But that doesn't seem to me to have much dramatic
>> possibility. So who will he line up to follow him?
>>
>
> Carrot is a possibility but I would guess Vimes (with Carrot as backup).
> Vetinari seems to keep piling more titles and authority on Vimes over
> successive books and it's been said that the best person to have in charge
> is one that doesn't want the job.
But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an Authority
to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by. As
long as there is someone to handle the top level, he can handle the
down-to-earth policing. Which may extend to much more than ordinary
policing, as in T5E, or (we hear) The Night Watch. But I don't think he
could handle the very top job. And he isn't devious enough to hadle the
bits where guile and diplomacy won't cope. Indirection and subttlety can go
to far, and when they do, Vimes' directenss cuts through the bullshit (as
shown in J and T5E). But they have thair place, and Vimes has no at all of
them.
--
@lec Å awley
Irnbrupisshead
>But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an Authority
>to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by. As
>long as there is someone to handle the top level, he can handle the
>down-to-earth policing. Which may extend to much more than ordinary
>policing, as in T5E, or (we hear) The Night Watch. But I don't think he
>could handle the very top job. And he isn't devious enough to hadle the
>bits where guile and diplomacy won't cope. Indirection and subttlety can go
>to far, and when they do, Vimes' directenss cuts through the bullshit (as
>shown in J and T5E). But they have thair place, and Vimes has no at all of
>them.
Assuming people here have read The Truth...then I'll get down to it...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
All the qualities that Alec seems to think are required for the top position,
appear to already exist in a great number of the heads of companies within Ankh
Morpork.
I wont say guilds because this is patently not so..according to my
interpretation...however...all the qualities, with the added bonus of being
high born would seem to fit William de Word.
He has all the qualities needed for running a news paper empire and is getting
practise in the truth and who knows what. with a mind that can seem to run
rings around the aristocracy, plus Vimes doesn't like him much but he is
accepted by Angua and Carrot.
Just a Thought since it seems to be going down that line.
ibp
----------------------------------------------------------------
When you've seen the sunrise and the sunset and the whole day in between...
It all seems worth it.
Alec Cawley
I have to say that that seems to me quite a reasonable idea. I wouldn't
trust anybody from the guilds, becuase they have climbed to the top of
their guild by the same self-serving process of backstabbing, blackmail and
other manipulations that the Partrician seems to not to have followed, or
to have overcome. But William... As you say, Vimes dislikes him, but would
respect him enough to administer, grudgingly, The Law, under his
supervision. As you say, his aristocratic credentials are impeccable.
--
@lec Å awley
Chris Share
>Didn't Nobby actually have some artifacts that (if inherited, rather
>than stolen) would make him legitimate upper class, if not King material?
Yes, but IIRC he's got enough such objects to prove he is half of
Ankh's aristocracy :)
chirs
PussInSpooks
>From: Stevie D stevieiny...@yahoo.co.uk
>*But*, as the human in Angua is very
>much dominant over the wolf, if she and Carrot got together I would
>imagine they are much more likely to have children than puppies.
Would it mean they had to be very careful about their dates? Would what she had
depend on the condition she was in when she went into labour?
gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis
On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 16:25:28 +0100, Alec Cawley
<al...@cawley.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>We don't actually know what mechanism there is for selecting new Patricians
Erm, we get a pretty good idea of one mechanism in TT.
And that can probably filed under the general classification of
"whatever works"!
Cheers,
Graham.
James Kuyper Jr.
> "Maria Jones" <goto...@politician.com> wrote in message
> news:ad5cab77.02100...@posting.google.com...
>
>>THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
> Would a werewolf king even be accepted? In FOC, Dragon King of Arms chose
> Nobby as his King candidate because of the possibility that Carrot would
> produce werewolf children. There would probably be a lot of resistance to
> the idea of an undead as monarch.
AM is getting steadily less speciesist, and a lot of that is due to
Carrot himself smoothing out relations between the species. The Dragon
King of Arms was quite out of touch with the actual mood of the city. In
the unlikely event that Carrot ever decides that he needs to actually
take up the throne, the fact that his wife (I assume they'll get married
sometime soon) is a werewolf won't be a major problem to overcome. I'd
expect that by the end of his reign, only a few die-hard conservatives
would even think of objecting if the heir turns out to be a were-wolf.
I do think it would be rather a problem though, if the heir turns out to
be a yannork. Or maybe it would be the best thing that ever happened to
AM since "Old Stoneface" killed the last king. I'm personally in full
agreement with Vimes about hereditary positions of authority. Having
someone in that position who's actually incapable of exercising the
authority is probably safer than what's actually happened with many
real-world kings.
James Kuyper Jr.
> Alec Cawley wrote...
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
>
>
>
>
> All the qualities that Alec seems to think are required for the top position,
> appear to already exist in a great number of the heads of companies within Ankh
> Morpork.
> I wont say guilds because this is patently not so..according to my
> interpretation...however...all the qualities, with the added bonus of being
> high born would seem to fit William de Word.
> He has all the qualities needed for running a news paper empire and is getting
> practise in the truth and who knows what. with a mind that can seem to run
> rings around the aristocracy, plus Vimes doesn't like him much but he is
> accepted by Angua and Carrot.
The final scene of "The Truth" made it very clear that when something
nasty is going on, William's first inclination is to report on it. Not
to help fix it, but to report on it. Society needs people like that; but
they should never be put in a position of authority over anything larger
than, or much different from, a single news outlet (the small number of
different companies that own most of America's news media is rather
worrying).
James Kuyper Jr.
I doubt that she has much choice in the matter - I imagine that her
cycle phase-locked relative to the lunar cycle.
Richard Eney
<gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukDELETETHIS> wrote:
> Alec Cawley <al...@cawley.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>We don't actually know what mechanism there is for selecting new Patricians
>
>Erm, we get a pretty good idea of one mechanism in TT.
And in ToT.
=Tamar
Daibhid Chiennedelh
AFAICR we get told that "everyone knows" the new Patrician will be Mr Scrope of
the Guild of Cobblers and Affordable Leatherworkers (sorry), but we don't
actually get told *how* he's chosen. ICBW, my copy is back at the house.
--
Dave
EU SF&FSoc http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
When one is tired of London, one is tired of being overcharged, overcrowded,
insulted, rushed and compelled to make 2 hour journeys that anywhere else would
take 15 minutes. -Diane L on afp.
Richard Eney
James Kuyper Jr. <kuy...@wizard.net> wrote:
>Morpheus wrote:
>> "Maria Jones" <goto...@politician.com> wrote in message
>>
and contains Speculation, too
I said, SPECULATION ABOUT FUTURE PLOTS
>>> S
>>> P
>>> O
>>> I
>>> L
>>> E
>>> R
>>> S
>>> P
>>> A
>>> C
>>> E
>...
>> Would a werewolf king even be accepted?
<snip>
>> There would probably be a lot of resistance to
>> the idea of an undead as monarch.
>AM is getting steadily less speciesist, and a lot of that is due to
>Carrot himself smoothing out relations between the species.
<snip>
>I'd
>expect that by the end of his reign, only a few die-hard conservatives
>would even think of objecting if the heir turns out to be a were-wolf.
>
>I do think it would be rather a problem though, if the heir turns out to
>be a yannork. Or maybe it would be the best thing that ever happened to
>AM since "Old Stoneface" killed the last king. I'm personally in full
>agreement with Vimes about hereditary positions of authority. Having
>someone in that position who's actually incapable of exercising the
>authority is probably safer than what's actually happened with many
>real-world kings.
Nah, look at regents. OTOH, didn't one of A-M's kings appoint
his horse to a position on the council? (Nero, in RL). It's not so far
from that to a yannork patrician, especially since the group of men who
want to run A-M from behind a puppet would find it even easier to put in a
puppet regent for the yannork. Always assuming, of course, that Uberwald
didn't send a werewolf to translate for the yannork, who would then have
the problems of anyone who has to rule through a translator - he might
understand the language, but getting anyone besides Gaspode to understand
his complaints about the faulty translations could be a problem.
Gaspode as regent... shades of MP.
=Tamar
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 06/10/02 21:35 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <2618156.k...@aleccawley.com
>
>Irnbrupisshead wrote:
>
>>
<snip>
The fact that that's a consideration is probably enough for him to reject the
post. William *hates* being an aristocrat. Possibly even more than Vimes, since
he can't say "I'm not one *really*." Being Patrician isn't for him. His role
(as he sees it) is to report on what's happening, not make it hapen (although,
of course, observation changes what's observed[1]). Als, being an absolute
ruler offers too much opportunity to be like his father- it may even be a
career choice his father would approve of!- and therefore is anathema to him.
IMO.
[1] I suppose it's required that I have a fotnote reading "because of quantum"
here.
Alec Cawley
<William de Worde from TT>
>>I have to say that that seems to me quite a reasonable idea. I wouldn't
>>trust anybody from the guilds, becuase they have climbed to the top of
>>their guild by the same self-serving process of backstabbing, blackmail
>>and other manipulations that the Partrician seems to not to have followed,
>>or to have overcome. But William... As you say, Vimes dislikes him, but
>>would respect him enough to administer, grudgingly, The Law, under his
>>supervision. As you say, his aristocratic credentials are impeccable.
>
> The fact that that's a consideration is probably enough for him to reject
> the post. William *hates* being an aristocrat. Possibly even more than
> Vimes, since he can't say "I'm not one *really*." Being Patrician isn't
> for him. His role (as he sees it) is to report on what's happening, not
> make it hapen (although, of course, observation changes what's
> observed[1]). Als, being an absolute
> ruler offers too much opportunity to be like his father- it may even be a
> career choice his father would approve of!- and therefore is anathema to
> him. IMO.
Prcisely the reasons which most justify forcing him to be Patrician. No
worthy candiadate would *want* the job.
--
@lec Å awley
Danny Sichel
> More interesting is the question of who succeeds Vetinari.
Isn't it obvious?
Vimes is the only real choice.
Mike Stevens
news:anqic5$mdv$2...@news1.radix.net...
> Nah, look at regents. OTOH, didn't one of A-M's kings appoint
> his horse to a position on the council? (Nero, in RL).
Wasn't it Caligula who made his horse Incitatus a consul?
--
Mike Stevens
The old farts' old fart
web site http://www.mike-stevens.co.uk (Temporarily out of action)
Viv
uttered:
>"Richard Eney" <dic...@radix.net> wrote in message
>news:anqic5$mdv$2...@news1.radix.net...
>
>> Nah, look at regents. OTOH, didn't one of A-M's kings appoint
>> his horse to a position on the council? (Nero, in RL).
>
>Wasn't it Caligula who made his horse Incitatus a consul?
According to Suetonius, he was merely rumoured to be planning it.
Apparently the horse was solely responsible for the Green racing faction
winning its contests, therefore Caligula as the Greens' No.1 fan pampered
the horse luxuriously in a marble stable, with fabulous food and constant
entertainment by troupes of musicians and dancers. This indulgence probably
prompted some wisely anonymous wit to suggest that the next step would be a
consulship.
Considering the blithe disregard with which Suetonius presents rumour as
fact elsewhere in his Lives of the Caesars, even he must have thought the
Incitatus rumour on the nose. Caligula may well have been insane, but he
probably wasn't as weird as he appears in _I, Claudius_ or the play by
Camus.
Vivienne Smythe
--
"Some believe all manner of hearsay evidence; others twist truth
into fiction; and both sorts of error are magnified by time."
[Cornelius Tacitus, _The Annals of Imperial Rome_ c.100CE]
Maria Jones
If the heir does turn out to be a yennork, then there is a greater
possibility of him/her being a human-shaped yennork rather than a
wolf-shaped one.After all, his father is a human, so he will a greater
proportion of human genes. In such a case,people may not find out that
he is a werewolf at all, as he never changes shape, even at full moon.
Morpheus
news:20021006194722...@mb-fp.aol.com...
> >
> >From: gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukDELETETHIS
> >Date: 06/10/02 23:28 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <3da0a964...@news.cache.cable.ntlworld.com>
> >
> >Hi there,
> >
> >On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 16:25:28 +0100, Alec Cawley
> ><al...@cawley.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>We don't actually know what mechanism there is for selecting new
Patricians
> >
> >Erm, we get a pretty good idea of one mechanism in TT.
> >
> >And that can probably filed under the general classification of
> >"whatever works"!
>
> AFAICR we get told that "everyone knows" the new Patrician will be Mr
Scrope of
> the Guild of Cobblers and Affordable Leatherworkers (sorry), but we don't
> actually get told *how* he's chosen. ICBW, my copy is back at the house.
>
easy to manipulate.
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 07/10/02 13:29 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <57fo9.14857$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
>
>"Daibhid Chiennedelh" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20021006194722...@mb-fp.aol.com...
>> >
>> AFAICR we get told that "everyone knows" the new Patrician will be Mr
>Scrope of
>> the Guild of Cobblers and Affordable Leatherworkers (sorry), but we don't
>> actually get told *how* he's chosen. ICBW, my copy is back at the house.
>>
>He was chosen for the same reason they wanted Nobby to be king, Scrope is
>easy to manipulate
That's the "why". We don't get told the *how*. How does someone become
Patrician? It can't be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders pick someone they
can manipulate", unless they *really* miscalculated last time 8-)...
Dave A
Chiennedelh) wrote:
>That's the "why". We don't get told the *how*. How does someone become
>Patrician? It can't be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders pick someone they
>can manipulate", unless they *really* miscalculated last time 8-)...
We do get some information about "how" -- we get a list of guild
leaders who voted against.
Even if similar methods were used to pick the current Patrician,
Vetinari followed a run of Patricians whose "manipulation" of the A-M
population was decidedly physical.
--
Dave A
Ash
> How does someone become Patrician? It can't
> be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders pick
> someone they can manipulate", unless they
> *really* miscalculated last time 8-)...
Vetinari had a respectable background (as so far revealed,
anyway), coming from the Assassins Guild. He studied languages
rather than advanced poisons (etc.) so he doesn't immediately
sound dangerous. Indeed, with a wealthy family background, and
an excellent knowledge of the world (from his travelling years),
he sounds pretty good for the job.
Then comes the requirement that he be manipulable. Well, he
didn't necessarily give a completely accurate impression of
himself when he appeared upon the scene.
Is any of this likely to be involved in Night Watch? Or will NW
be about earlier events?
Ashley
Stevie D
> But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an Authority
> to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by.
Don't you think that being put in charge of Ankh-Morpork would be
enough to make anyone feel hard done-by?
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
Alfred May
"Stevie D" <stevieiny...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:imc3qucdg9r58tb7j...@4ax.com...
> Alec Cawley wrote:
>
> > But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an
Authority
> > to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by.
>
> Don't you think that being put in charge of Ankh-Morpork would be
> enough to make anyone feel hard done-by?
>
chance to bring in Carrot as a sort of Minister of Defence), this could give
him the power AND someone to rail against (about being tied down by the
system etc.).
Tom
Peter Ellis
So if you want human babies, you have to *ahem* the wolf form?
*g*
Peter
Irnbrupisshead
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
S
P
E
C
U
L
A
T
I
O
N
> If the heir does turn out to be a yennork, then there is a greater
>possibility of him/her being a human-shaped yennork rather than a
>wolf-shaped one.After all, his father is a human, so he will a greater
>proportion of human genes.
Er...on Discworld, genes don't behave in the same way...who's to say that the
Yennork will not be short and hairy as well as an ability to talk to
dogs...afterall, Carrot is a dwarf and he can (cant remember the quote so I
apologise) Hgradg his gradh. Ergo, he is a Dwarf...certainly by the Low King's
standards.
After all, Ankh Morpork is the biggest Dwarf city outside Uberwald.
Irnbrupisshead
>The final scene of "The Truth" made it very clear that when something
>nasty is going on, William's first inclination is to report on it. Not
>to help fix it, but to report on it. Society needs people like that; but
>they should never be put in a position of authority over anything larger
>than, or much different from, a single news outlet (the small number of
>different companies that own most of America's news media is rather
>worrying).
Exactly...information filtering to the general public.
Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the gangster name / mafioso
names...Pterry got quite upset that so few people spotted that...
The Mafia controls what happens and so what people think. With me? So...the
controlled information flow would also be another way of controlling what
people think....how many times has a person jumped to the wrong conclusion
based on just sketchy information.
William de Worde also has had practise at the control of information....read
TT. And controlling what people think by the manipulation of words. Not just
the truth, but..THE TRUTH and whatever is a given value for true at the time.
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 07/10/02 20:40 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20021007154013...@mb-ct.aol.com>
>
>Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the gangster name /
>mafioso
>names...Pterry got quite upset that so few people spotted that...
Er, I thought it was the Medicis...
Christine Leston
>
> Nah, look at regents. OTOH, didn't one of A-M's kings appoint
> his horse to a position on the council? (Nero, in RL). It's not so far
> from that to a yannork patrician, especially since the group of men who
> want to run A-M from behind a puppet would find it even easier to put in a
> puppet regent for the yannork.
I think you only have regents for hereditary positions that MUST be filled
by the first-in-line of a given family. The regent rules in place of the
king/emperor/whatever if he is too young to rule, or insane, or leading his
troops to battle somewhere.
A Patrician who was unable to fulfil his functions would be replaced, or a
deputy would be appointed for a strictly temporary emergency.
C.M. Leston.
Bill Richard
news:20021007083829...@mb-fl.aol.com:
>>Date: 07/10/02 13:29 GMT Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <57fo9.14857$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
>>
>>Scrope is easy to manipulate
>
> That's the "why". We don't get told the *how*. How does someone
> become Patrician? It can't be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders
> pick someone they can manipulate", unless they *really*
> miscalculated last time 8-)...
But we do get told the "how". Here is a (slightly abridged) excerpt
from a conversation between William de Worde and Mr. Slant near the
end of TT. (pg. 327, US pbk. ed.)
de W: Mr Scrope is now the Patrician?
Slant: Yes.
de W: By the vote of the Guilds?
Slant: Yes. Of course.
de W: The unanimous vote?
[...]
Slant: The Beggars and the Seamstresses voted to adjourn. So did
The Launderers, and the Guild of Exotic Dancers.
de W: So...that would be Queen Molly, Mrs. Palm, Mrs. Manger,
and Miss Dixie Voom. What an interesting life Lord
Vetinari must have led.
Slant: No comment.
This seems pretty explicit to me. As to why a particular person is
chosen at a paritcular time... Well maybe after many years of
Vetinari, and under the influence of people who think like Lord de
Worde, choosing someone who will do what they want seems like a good
idea. On the other hand, when Vetinari was chosen conditions would
have been different (and some or all of the choosers might have been
different) and they would be evaluating candidates against the
previous Patrician (Wasn't that Mad Lord Snapcase?). Choosing
someone who appeared to be sane and competent may well have seemed
like a good idea at that time.
--
William J. Richard bi...@queernet.org (Preferred)
2215-R Market St. #546 w...@frys.com (Also works)
San Francisco, CA 94114
James Kuyper Jr.
...
> Exactly...information filtering to the general public.
> Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the gangster name / mafioso
I strongly suspect that the Borgias were more of an inspiration for the
character of Vetinari than the mafia were.
James Kuyper Jr.
...
> That's the "why". We don't get told the *how*. How does someone become
> Patrician? It can't be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders pick someone they
> can manipulate", unless they *really* miscalculated last time 8-)...
Once Vetenari decided that he wanted the job, I'm sure he didn't find it
very difficult (by his standards) to manipulate the leaders into giving
it to him. The only question is "how". I'm sure the answer could be very
entertaining, if we can convince Terry to tell us! Maybe it's in Night
Watch?
James Kuyper Jr.
> dogs...afterall, Carrot is a dwarf and he can (cant remember the quote so I
> apologise) Hgradg his gradh. Ergo, he is a Dwarf...certainly by the Low King's
> standards.
That's a cultural thing; he knows how to do it, whatever it is. It's not
a genetic thing, not even by the twisted genetics that the Discworld
operates on.
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 07/10/02 22:21 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Xns92A0920099B05bi...@195.200.1.58>
>
>daibhidc...@aol.com (Daibhid Chiennedelh) wrote in
>news:20021007083829...@mb-fl.aol.com:
>>>From: "Morpheus" car...@miskatonic.edu
>>>Date: 07/10/02 13:29 GMT Daylight Time
>>>Message-id: <57fo9.14857$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>
>>>
>>>He was chosen for the same reason they wanted Nobby to be king,
>>>Scrope is easy to manipulate
>>
>> That's the "why". We don't get told the *how*. How does someone
>> become Patrician? It can't be "A bunch of nobles and guild leaders
>> pick someone they can manipulate", unless they *really*
>> miscalculated last time 8-)...
>
>But we do get told the "how". Here is a (slightly abridged) excerpt
>from a conversation between William de Worde and Mr. Slant near the
>end of TT. (pg. 327, US pbk. ed.)
<snip>
Oh, yeah. Like I said, the book's back at the house.
So. To become Patrician you have to get voted for by a majority of the Guild
leaders, with no objections (although abstentions are permissable).
I don't think Vimes or de Worde have anything to worry about 8-).
Richard Eney
Ash <ashl...@bridgesm1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"Daibhid Chiennedelh" wrote...
>> How does someone become Patrician?
>Vetinari had a respectable background (as so far revealed,
>anyway), coming from the Assassins Guild. He studied languages
>rather than advanced poisons (etc.) so he doesn't immediately
>sound dangerous.
So far, so good...
> with a wealthy family background, and an excellent knowledge of
>the world (from his travelling years), he sounds pretty good for the job.
Acceptable to the average noble, but the excellent knowledge
part might have been a problem for the guild leaders to accept.
>Then comes the requirement that he be manipulable. Well, he
>didn't necessarily give a completely accurate impression of
>himself when he appeared upon the scene.
Almost certainly not. :-)
>Is any of this likely to be involved in Night Watch?
>Or will NW be about earlier events?
NW is reported to be about the past, but how much detail we get
about Vetinari is yet to be seen.
=Tamar
Richard Eney
Maria Jones <goto...@politician.com> wrote:
THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
and contains Speculation, too
I said, SPECULATION ABOUT FUTURE PLOTS
>> >>> S
>> >>> P
>> >>> O
>> >>> I
>> >>> L
>> >>> E
>> >>> R
>> >>> S
>> >>> P
>> >>> A
>> >>> C
>> >>> E
>> ...
throne while being a werewolf, or a yennork either always-wolf or
always-human:>
> If the heir does turn out to be a yennork, then there is a greater
>possibility of him/her being a human-shaped yennork rather than a
>wolf-shaped one.After all, his father is a human, so he will a greater
>proportion of human genes. In such a case,people may not find out that
>he is a werewolf at all, as he never changes shape, even at full moon.
But it wouldn't prevent them from believing that he does, since
they would know about Angua. That's another of those open secrets,
and while those who know may keep it quiet since she's "just a watchman",
it would certainly become wider known if the Throne scenario happened.
=Tamar
Morpheus
news:Xns92A0920099B05bi...@195.200.1.58...
> chosen at a paritcular time... Well maybe after many years of
> Vetinari, and under the influence of people who think like Lord de
> Worde, choosing someone who will do what they want seems like a good
> idea. On the other hand, when Vetinari was chosen conditions would
> have been different (and some or all of the choosers might have been
> different) and they would be evaluating candidates against the
> previous Patrician (Wasn't that Mad Lord Snapcase?). Choosing
> someone who appeared to be sane and competent may well have seemed
> like a good idea at that time.
>
There seems to have been a shift over time in the method used to select a
new patrician. The impression given by Terry's books is that before
Vetinari, the position of Patrician appeared to be up for grabs for
whichever nobleman was strong enough to claim it. Lord Rule tried to return
to that tradition in Jingo by becoming Patrician after having Vetinari being
found guilty of treason and using jingoism to return Ankh-Morpork to the
"good old days". It wasn't until Vetinari built up the Guilds that they
were given any real say in who ran the city.
Dave O'Brien
>And in ToT.
>=Tamar
And in Jingo, also.
dave
--
dave o'brien -- http://www.diaspoir.net
Dave O'Brien
y/n
>
>Vimes is the only real choice.
Really? Even though almost none of the guilds want him and he doesn't
fill Havelock's shoes by making *himself* indispensable.
Most of A-M society *would* like to dispense with Vimes. They *want*
a vacuous tit they can control (c.f. M@A) Some want a King (c.f.
well, any Watch book really).
Sam (and that name is not a random choice: think Spade) Vimes won't be
The Man. It's completely not in his character. He'll be 'the cop who
works outside the rules' all the time. For him to be 'The Man' would
require a complete re-writing of the rules about how the whole society
operates.
If there's one candidate everyone wants, it's 'Captain' Carrot, who
wouldn't do it for some very obvious reasons. He'd probably be the
best, though. He certainly wouldn't be the nicest.
In short, there are no long term candidates who could replace Vetinari
(and especially his skill in juggling every activity so that things
*just* *work*. Every previously seen possible-replacement would
require a sea-change in how the city works.
dave
--
dave o'brien - http://www.diaspoir.net
Mike Stevens
news:fni3qugnb31pvfkke...@4ax.com...
> In short, there are no long term candidates who could replace
Vetinari
> (and especially his skill in juggling every activity so that things
> *just* *work*. Every previously seen possible-replacement would
> require a sea-change in how the city works.
On the other hand, if there *were* a long-term candidate for the
succession, isn't it likely that he'd be pretty well invisible until
the moment came and he stepped out of the shadows? Possibly taking
the duck off his head as he did so.
Len Oil
> Maria Jones wrote:
> > THIS COULD BE A POTENTIAL T5E SPOILER
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> > children someday. Pratchett has already mentioned the possibility in
> > FOC and T5E.
> > Since Angua is a werewolf, it is likely that they will have a
> > whole litter. ...
>
> I'd say "possible" rather than "likely". She spends far more time in
> human form than in wolf form. I'd guess that she's more likely to have a
> human-style single birth, rather than a large number. Even more likely,
> is an intermediate number, say 2 or 3.
This might well produce an 'instant' version of the olden tradition of the
first three male offspring being trained towards nobility, military and the
church, respectively (IIRC)[1]. I have no doubt, though that the natural
tendency of Narrativium to drive the three sons in this direction is also
counteracted by the natural tendency of !!!!!ium to bring the unexpected
into play[2].
[1] And what happens to the 4th+ male child? They brought down the system
from the gutter up? They waited patiently by, waiting for a 'vacancy',
meanwhile becoming an army padre with Aires? They went into
alchemy/science/computing/night-clubs according to (or regardless of) era?
Are /you/ a 4th son? The world demands to know![3]
[2] I suspect that the balance between these two distinct forces is
dictated by a value that I shall dub the "Fine Storyline Constant", though
it is clearly shown by observation to be changing over time and was
definitely different right at the start of the Discworld universe.
[3] We know that a 7ath son would probably be encouraged to have a large
family himself, of course.
Richard Eney
Dave O'Brien <use...@diaspoir.net> wrote:
>A scroll of news from dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney). Read it? y/n
>
>>And in ToT.
>
J, yes. Not in ToT, what was I thinking of.
=Tamar
Ash
but it's been out for a while...
in paperback too...
so this should be plenty...
and a little extra.
[Concerning Angua's babies]
Maria Jones wrote:
> I'd guess that she's more likely to have a
> human-style single birth, rather than a large
> number. Even more likely, is an intermediate
> number, say 2 or 3.
If she had more than 3, she'd have some major problems during
labour and for a couple of months before. Unless the developing
foetuses are canine, and have small heads. Of course, the Watch
has an Igor who's almost certainly capable of a Caesarian job,
so I wouldn't expect Angua's un-life to be threatened.
My biological knowledge is negligeable, so I could be talking
tripe. If so, please tell me about it by e-mail rather than on
ABP.
And if she's undead, but Carrot's alive, does that make the
children half-dead? Or pseudo-living? As for the inheritance of
the throne, a conventional bi-morphic werewolf monarch should be
able to hold it down as easily as a human, with the added bonus
that the werewolf can rip out its enemies' jugulars. It would be
more tricky if the monarch were never human-shaped.
Ashley
Terry Pratchett
<ashl...@bridgesm1.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>And if she's undead, but Carrot's alive, does that make the
>children half-dead? Or pseudo-living?
Werewolves are honorary undead, if that's the right way of putting it.
They can't be killed with normal weapons, so they 'come alive' again.
But they are not immortal, and quite capable of falling ill.
--
Terry Pratchett
Terry Pratchett
Chiennedelh <daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
>>Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the gangster name /
>>mafioso
>>names...Pterry got quite upset that so few people spotted that...
>
>Er, I thought it was the Medicis...
Quite. And I didn't exactly slit my wrists over it. it was just
puzzling that a newsgroup that's invents convoluted annotations for a
pastime didn't spot Vetinari/Medici.
And no one spotted that I completely lifted the opening of Wyrd Sisters
from a sketch on BBC Radio Four's new comedy series 'Rapid Eye Movement'
the other week. Pay attention, you lot:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Sherilyn
> In article <20021007162050...@mb-mk.aol.com>, Daibhid
> Chiennedelh <daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
> >>Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the gangster name /
> >>mafioso
> >>names...Pterry got quite upset that so few people spotted that...
> >
> >Er, I thought it was the Medicis...
>
> Quite. And I didn't exactly slit my wrists over it. it was just
> puzzling that a newsgroup that's invents convoluted annotations for a
> pastime didn't spot Vetinari/Medici.
Perhaps those who did thought it so obvious they didn't annotate,
having better things to do with their time.
--
Sherilyn
5c0rp
> y/n
> >Isn't it obvious?
> >
> >Vimes is the only real choice.
>
<snip>
> If there's one candidate everyone wants, it's 'Captain' Carrot, who
> wouldn't do it for some very obvious reasons. He'd probably be the
> best, though. He certainly wouldn't be the nicest.
<snip>
Although, imagine Carrot being trained by Vetinari, specifically for the
purposes of carrying on Vetinari's good work.
Imagine Carrot actually turning out to be a complete b*stard when being
given that sort of power, the guilds stripping him of the power, which Vimes
would not stand in the way of, Carrot ends up back in the watch and as
placid as he was before.
Oh well, it'd be nice though wouldn't it?
ptenbob
Morpheus
"Mike Stevens" <mike...@which.net> wrote in message
news:U1Jo9.3268$f41.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> "Dave O'Brien" <spam...@diaspoir.net> wrote in message
> news:fni3qugnb31pvfkke...@4ax.com...
>
>
> > In short, there are no long term candidates who could replace
> Vetinari
> > (and especially his skill in juggling every activity so that things
> > *just* *work*. Every previously seen possible-replacement would
> > require a sea-change in how the city works.
>
> On the other hand, if there *were* a long-term candidate for the
> succession, isn't it likely that he'd be pretty well invisible until
> the moment came and he stepped out of the shadows? Possibly taking
> the duck off his head as he did so.
>
>
What duck? (someone had to say it)
Mike Stevens
news:sEVo9.15073$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
>
> "Mike Stevens" <mike...@which.net> wrote in message
> news:U1Jo9.3268$f41.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > succession, isn't it likely that he'd be pretty well invisible
until
> > the moment came and he stepped out of the shadows? Possibly
taking
> > the duck off his head as he did so.
>
> What duck? (someone had to say it)
A bit of spoiler space for Jingo (and possibly some others). Also
some might call this speculation - but then isn't this whole
thread?
..
..
..
..
..
I was just thinking that if there was a really clever character
planning to be Vetinari's successor, he'd probably keep pretty well
hidden, and among Foul Ole Ron's associates might be a good place.
ajames54
wrote:
>Alec Cawley wrote...
>
>>But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an Authority
>>to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by. As
>>long as there is someone to handle the top level, he can handle the
>>down-to-earth policing. Which may extend to much more than ordinary
>>policing, as in T5E, or (we hear) The Night Watch. But I don't think he
>>could handle the very top job. And he isn't devious enough to hadle the
>>bits where guile and diplomacy won't cope. Indirection and subttlety can go
>>to far, and when they do, Vimes' directenss cuts through the bullshit (as
>>shown in J and T5E). But they have thair place, and Vimes has no at all of
>>them.
>
>
>
>Assuming people here have read The Truth...then I'll get down to it...
>S
>P
>O
>I
>L
>E
>R
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E
>
>
>
>
Personally I think I would like to see Harry King as the possible successor
to Vetinari... (Piss Harry, the King of the Golden River)
he is not affiliated with the guilds (most emphatically)
he is a self made man ...
he is used to dealing with a sh*ty job
he has a good relationship with the minorities in the city
he has a strong enough ruthless streak to do the job
He already has King in his name...
He would hate the job but would do it because
a) someone has to
b) it would make his wife happy
If pterry wants to use the idea he can have it free with out attribution...
(some of you guys have some bizarre ideas about plagiarism)
PussInSpooks
>From: "James Kuyper Jr." kuy...@wizard.net
>PussInSpooks wrote:
>> Would it mean they had to be very careful about their dates? Would what she
>had
>> depend on the condition she was in when she went into labour?
>
>I doubt that she has much choice in the matter - I imagine that her
>cycle phase-locked relative to the lunar cycle.
>
Sorry, could you either expand on that or say it again in different words? I
can't figure out just what you mean.
Ta
James Kuyper Jr.
> On 06 Oct 2002 19:51:04 GMT, irnbrup...@aol.comprism (Irnbrupisshead)
> wrote:
...
> If pterry wants to use the idea he can have it free with out attribution...
> (some of you guys have some bizarre ideas about plagiarism)
The courts have accepted some pretty bizarre ideas about plagiarism. And
authors who don't want to be sued pay attention to attorneys who warn
them about the possible idiocies the courts might perpetrate. In
particular, the fact that you freely gave Terry permission to use your
idea, is not sufficient to prevent you from having a chance of
successfully suing him, should he actually decide to use it.
Don't ask me why. I'm just an observer of the courts, not a decision
maker. Well, not yet. A week from now I may be a bona-fide decision
maker: I've got Jury Duty.
Ash
> opening of Wyrd Sisters from a sketch on
> BBC Radio Four's new comedy series 'Rapid
> Eye Movement' the other week. Pay attention,
> you lot:-)
> --
> Terry Pratchett
Curious. I'd assumed that scene came from the (y2k) Sabrina The
Teenage Witch book "Millenium Madness", in which a whole coven
of archaic witches goes through the "When shall we 13 meet
again?" conversation, but dragging it out for two pages of "I'm
busy next Tuesday, how about Thursday?" - "No, I'm doing my hair
on Thursday." It stopped being funny after the second paragraph.
Their leader, whose name happened to be Alice, had a familiar
problem that resulted in her replying to you before you asked
the question.
Is this an example of nicking ideas? Or is it just an
unsuccessful parody? (There was no acknowledgements section.)
Ashley
James Kuyper Jr.
Well, I left out a few key words. Replace "cycle phase-locked" with
"menstrual cycle is phase-locked". However, if you don't understand the
concept of phase locking, I doubt that that helps much. :-}
For human woman the menstrual cycle has a length that's comparable to
the lunar month, but isn't exactly the same as it, and tends to be
different for different women. Those cycles aren't synchronized with
each other, nor with the moon itself. Oddly enough, when a number of
women tend to spend a lot of time together, their menstrual cycles do
tend to get synchronized with each other, but nothing synchronizes them
with the Moon.
However, since Angua undergoes a major bodily change every time there's
a full moon, I suspect that her menstrual cycle is tightly synchronized
with it. She'll always be in the same part of that cycle, every time
there's a full moon. This implies, if werewolf pregnancy lengths are as
consistent as human ones, that the moon is likely to be in the pretty
much the same phase every time a werewolf child is born.
Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
them born during the full moon would probably be best. Human births
(without decent medical help) tend to have higher death rates than wolf
births, because the human head just barely fits through the birth canal.
Human female pelvic widths are slowly adapting to the larger head size;
but that's a very slow process, and it's still going on. For now, the
tight fit is the major reason human women need so much more help giving
birth than most other animals.
However, if there's any chance that a child might come out with a human
head, the mother will be much better off in human form, than wolf form.
That's because the human female pelvis has already done a lot of
adapting to our huge head sizes.
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 09/10/02 12:48 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <87smzfy...@happy.sherilyn.org.uk>
And what could be a better use of one's time than this? Having a "life"? Pah!
I'm still very proud of myself for working out "Selachii" and "Venturi" with no
help save the mention in the UUChallange that there *was* something to look
for.
Sherilyn
> >From: Sherilyn sher...@suespammers.org Date: 09/10/02 12:48 GMT
> >Daylight Time Message-id: <87smzfy...@happy.sherilyn.org.uk>
> >
> >Terry Pratchett <Te...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> In article <20021007162050...@mb-mk.aol.com>, Daibhid
> >> Chiennedelh <daibhidc...@aol.com> writes
> >> >>Comparisons....Vetinari....the origional pun was on the
> >> gangster name / >>mafioso >>names...Pterry got quite upset that
> >> so few people spotted that...
> >> >
> >> >Er, I thought it was the Medicis...
> >>
> >> Quite. And I didn't exactly slit my wrists over it. it was just
> >> puzzling that a newsgroup that's invents convoluted annotations
> >> for a pastime didn't spot Vetinari/Medici.
> >
> >Perhaps those who did thought it so obvious they didn't annotate,
> >having better things to do with their time.
>
> And what could be a better use of one's time than this? Having a
> "life"? Pah!
>
> I'm still very proud of myself for working out "Selachii" and
> "Venturi" with no help save the mention in the UUChallange that
> there *was* something to look for.
That means someone else worked it out first.
--
Sherilyn
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 10/10/02 07:58 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <87ptuig...@happy.sherilyn.org.uk>
In the *forward* to UUChallange, which was written by Pterry. Although I'm sure
someone else (Langford) *did* work it out first. It's still one of only two
less-than-blatantly-obvious Discworld references I didn't actually need
explained in words of one syllable, and I'm proud of that.
Malaclypse
I think that this is a blatant attempt at cashing in on a money making
institution (well, Sabrina's *sort of* like that), by writing a
"novel" which features those characters.
It's like the "novels based upon the original screenplay" which get
bandied about prior to a movie's released. I tend to avoid them (A)
out of principle and (B) the quality of writing is generally poor. The
only one that I've read which negates the theory is the Gladiator
novel I got free with something, which was reasonably well done.
Of course the writer, who is only doing it to get a quick buck -
"sabrina's in it - it'll sell" - and has recently read a load of
pratchett books has thought,
"I want to be funny in the same vein as Pratchett". They have then
taken it to the next level - how many people in the target area
(mainly america) have actually read pratchett's work?
Why not nick some ideas?!
I find the similarities you mentioned far too much to be a
coincidence, and my thoughts on the subject are aired quite freely
above.
Please note that I've never actually read any Sabrina novels, and for
all I know, they could be brilliant. But previous experience in
Television/movie novels has not been good.
When writing, I try as much as possible to keep my ideas as original
as possible. When writing a witty/quirky story, it's impossible to use
any original jokes - there aren't any.
I won't deny that I get my inspiration from a variety of sources -
including Pterry. E.g. when Jingo came out, I was once again entranced
by the Atlantis myth, read up on it and wrote a short story of my own
invention.
After re-reading Pyramids for the sixth or so time, I was struck by
the idea of trying to explain what the pyramids were for.
However, I will then develop my idea for Pyramids (say, that they were
an ancient form of garbage disposal!?) and write a story containing my
own characters, my own plotlines and -hopefully- my own
jokes/sketches.
I'm often struck by a great idea for a joke. I'll write it out, and
fit it neatly into my story.
I'll then watch an episode of Blackadder, and realise that the same
conversation and joke was used.
The question is, how original is it - had blackadder copied it from
elsewhere?
are people going to notice that it's "stolen"? Is I oneliner that
noone'll notice or is it ingrained in the public's consciousness?
Is there any way that I can morph my stolen gag, and change it in such
a way that it either seems original, or that it is turned into a
reference, or "appreciation" of the original source?
Don't get the idea that *all* of my inspiration comes from pratchett.
I was watching Wilder's Young Frankenstein a month or so ago.
Of course, now I'm halfway through, and I'm having to stay well clear
of not only my original inspired source, but clear of Carpe Jugulum,
Buffy the vampire slayer, blade, and all of the other Vampire
parodies/sources.
I can probably steal some stuff from Leslie Nielson's dracula flick,
cause no one's ever seen it. But there's not much worth stealing....
But when you're doing a vampire spoof, there's absolutely no way to
avoid the "local landlord? bit of a blood-sucker, eh?" joke.
But that's just me. My English teacher used to loved my stuff. And
they were *mostly* my ideas and *mostly* original stories as well.
What I could do was to take an idea from a movie/tv programme I'd
seen, and try to find a short story heading in the exam paper.
I'd then take the "write a story about a hacker" and blend it with my
experience of Jurassic Park the night before, and you're guaranteed a
weird and wacky story.
If my mind was *really* playing up, I'd take two of the headings "1.
Hacker" "2. write a story about an emotional event", and combine those
instead.
On an adventurous exam, I'd blend the two headings with my film. They
were wacky.
Another good trick that I've seen used was to get a "writer's block"
This is in fact a small cube of paper. Each page has a different idea
for inspiration of a short story on it. I only had a brief look at
it, but it seemed like a useful tool - but they pulled them all out
of the bookshops back in January.
Joerg Ruedenauer
<snip>
> Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
> time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
> safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
> them born during the full moon would probably be best.[...]
>
You seem to assume that there could be a human fetus in a mother in wolf
form or vice versa. I don't think that would work, but that the fetus
changes its shape whenever the mother changes her shape (even a yennork -
the change is probably triggered by the mother). So the mother should
choose to give birth in wolf form in all cases except one: she suspects a
yennork and wants that child to have human form.
This is a very difficult matter, though. For how long does the shape of
the mother change the shape of the child? What happens if the mother
changes shape during the birth[1]?
Joerg
[1] I'd advise not to do that ;-)
--
"Quoth the raven: Nevermore!" -- E.A.Poe
Daibhid Chiennedelh
>Date: 10/10/02 20:00 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ao4ja0$jer56$1...@ID-140488.news.dfncis.de>
lycanthropy would work suggests a pregnant werewolf would "freeze" in one form
until she bore the child or pups (depending on which form she was frozen in).
Viv
>It's like the "novels based upon the original screenplay" which get
>bandied about prior to a movie's released. I tend to avoid them (A)
>out of principle and (B) the quality of writing is generally poor. The
>only one that I've read which negates the theory is the Gladiator
>novel I got free with something, which was reasonably well done.
One reason for (B) is that due to scheduling constraints, the author of the
book-of-the-movie works from exactly that - the original screen-play, not
the final shooting-script, let alone the actual final cut. Thus you often
end up with irksome continuity errors (for want of a better description).
If the director and studio are willing to take a bit of extra time and
expense, they can actually have the author of the novelisation working off
the daily rushes and able to do a final draft which is true to the final
edit. The movie business being what it is, few productions take this extra
time and expense.
One novelisation which managed it was "The Abyss" by veteran sf writer Orson
Scott Card, where the foreword explaining how it all dovetailed together
with director Cameron and the studio is worth reading as a stand-alone.
There are probably a handful of others, but this is one of the few movie
novelisations where I actually got some extra depth from the book, as Card
included some scenes not shot in the movie version for the express purpose
of making the narrative work better for people who were reading the book
without seeing the movie. The extended ending of the book, which was the
original ending of the film and got cut by the studio after preview audience
reactions, makes better sense too (it's restored in the director's cut).
Actually, pTerry fans who like authors outside the comic genre might enjoy
much of Card's writing. He has the same outrage against
atrocity/cupidity/stupidity meme as background to a lot of his sf, and his
sf is decent science as well as strong character-driven fantasy. Try the
Ender's Game series (three, maybe four books now?). Just don't expect
comedy.
Vivienne Smythe
--
"Some believe all manner of hearsay evidence; others twist truth
into fiction; and both sorts of error are magnified by time."
[Cornelius Tacitus, _The Annals of Imperial Rome_ c.100CE]
James Kuyper Jr.
> James Kuyper Jr. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
>>time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
>>safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
>>them born during the full moon would probably be best.[...]
>>
>
> You seem to assume that there could be a human fetus in a mother in wolf
I'm making NO assumptions - I'm just trying to cover all the
possibilities. And I do consider that a possibility.
> ... I don't think that would work, but that the fetus
> changes its shape whenever the mother changes her shape (even a yennork -
> the change is probably triggered by the mother). ...
And that's another one. It's up to Terry. There's no logical
impossibilities (once you accept shape-shifting in the first place) with
either option.
Andrew Eremin
>
> Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
> time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
> safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
> them born during the full moon would probably be best. Human births
> (without decent medical help) tend to have higher death rates than wolf
> births, because the human head just barely fits through the birth canal.
> Human female pelvic widths are slowly adapting to the larger head size;
> but that's a very slow process, and it's still going on. For now, the
> tight fit is the major reason human women need so much more help giving
> birth than most other animals.
What's wrong with the possibility of a wolf pup being born to a werewolf
in human form? As you say above human female pelvic widths are slowly
adapting to the larger head size and so are presumably much larger than
in wolves while wolf pups which fit more comfortably than human babies
through their own species would make labour much easier for a human form
werewolf with the even larger human pelvic size. I'm assuming here that
species recognition and mother-child bonding in lycanthropes will work
(through something pheromone-based perhaps?) across any current-state
species barrier and so there would be no risk of rejection on either
part. Of course, for a werewolf living permanently among humans there
could be problems if normal humans witnessed the birth, but presumably
evolution would not have had time to catch up with this new social
phenomenon.
--
Andrew Eremin
IC Parc, William Penney Lab., Tel: +44 (0)20 7594 8299
Imperial College Fax: +44 (0)20 7594 8432
London SW7 2AZ email: a.er...@icparc.ic.ac.uk
James Kuyper Jr.
> "James Kuyper Jr." wrote:
>
>>Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
>>time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
>>safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
>>them born during the full moon would probably be best. Human births
>>(without decent medical help) tend to have higher death rates than wolf
>>births, because the human head just barely fits through the birth canal.
>>Human female pelvic widths are slowly adapting to the larger head size;
>>but that's a very slow process, and it's still going on. For now, the
>>tight fit is the major reason human women need so much more help giving
>>birth than most other animals.
>
>
> What's wrong with the possibility of a wolf pup being born to a werewolf
> in human form? As you say above human female pelvic widths are slowly
Nothing. That particular paragraph explored the possibility that the
form of the children would match the form of the mother. In that case,
the wolf form would be the better one to give birth in, because wolf
children fit through the wolf birth canal better than human children fit
through the human birth canal.
My other paragraphs covered the possibility that the children have a
fixed form, regardless of the mother's form. In that case, the human
form would be best, since it has a larger birth canal.
Maria Jones
I feel that Mrs. Cake is the best choice for a midwife to conduct
the delivery. Her daughter is a werewolf, so she has experience from
her own delivery. She is one of the very few people in Ankh-Morpork
who have a considerable knowledge about werewolves. Besides, the DW
Companion describes her as a witch and like most witches, she must
know a lot about midwifery as well.
Maria Jones
> "Stevie D" <stevieiny...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:imc3qucdg9r58tb7j...@4ax.com...
> > Alec Cawley wrote:
> >
> > > But could Vimes handle it? It seems to me that he needs to have an
> Authority
> > > to feel disgrumntled against. He actually *needs* to feel hard-done-by.
> >
> > enough to make anyone feel hard done-by?
> >
> I could see Vimes heading a "Council of State" (Which would give him a
> chance to bring in Carrot as a sort of Minister of Defence), this could give
> him the power AND someone to rail against (about being tied down by the
> system etc.).
>
> Tom
I think this is a very good idea. Vetinari has already introduced an
unofficial Parliamentary system of democracy in Ankh-Morpork. Think
about it. The Guilds are the equivalent of the House of Commons and
the nobles like Rust and co. constitute the House of Lords. It is
Vetinari who has given the Guilds this power. He rarely goes against
the Guilds, though he doesn't listen to the lords much. The Patrician
stays in power only as long as he has the support of the Guilds. The
actual "working" and administration of Ankh-Morpork is done by the
Guilds under the supervision of the Patrician. Creating an official
Parliament is just going one step futher.
Frankly, I can't imagine anyone except Vetinari as the Patrician.
Vimes, Carrot, William, Piss Harry, the Duck Man etc. are all
perfectly suited to their respective jobs and making any one of them
Patrician will rather ruin their characters and I don't think the city
will entirely accept them, not even Carrot (Vimes will certainly
oppose the idea). Even if a mysterious stranger who was exactly like
Vetinari in terms of thinking and intellect were to appear, he
wouldn't do either because the Guilds don't want another Vetinari. On
the other hand, no one would oppose the idea of all the leaders ruling
the city together. Any poor sod to be elected the Prime Minister will
merely be a "first among equals".In fact, this is somewhat like the
current functioning of the Watch. After all, the Patrician calls the
city a machine and says that his job is to make sure that it works.
Could this be a pun on the Watch?
Thomas Johnson
Is it worth considering that humans tend to have one offspring at a
time, occasionally two and very rarely more, whereas wolves tend to have
litters of at least six pups? Would a werewolf have somewhere between
these values, or would it depend what form she was in at the time of
conception?
Not sure I have any answers.
--
Thomas
"Everybody is all right really. That's what I think." - Winnie-the-Pooh
Ash
> [...] humans tend to have one offspring at a
> time, occasionally two and very rarely more,
> whereas wolves tend to have litters of at
> least six pups? Would a werewolf have
> somewhere between these values, or
> would it depend what form she was in at
> the time of conception?
>
> Not sure I have any answers.
>
Angua's parents are the only couple whose offspring have been
described, AFAIR. The Baron's a bimorphic, although he spends
more time being wolvish. Seraphine's probably not a yennork,
given Wolfgang's politics. Their litter consisted of two
bimorphics, a wolf and a humanoid.
If these were all from one pregnancy, it means that the unborn
children can be any shape at any time without harming the mother
in any of her forms. Because Seraphine must have been carrying
the yennork during a full-moon time.And it's unlikely she
changed shape between the birth of her quads, so one birth canal
would suffice for both shapes.
But if the kids are all different ages, we can't draw these
conclusions. Anyone know if this is mentioned in T5E?
As for what Thomas says about the werewolf's form at time of
conception, I think Carrot may have rather strong views on the
matter.
Ashley
5c0rp
"Thomas Johnson" <te...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3DA6F93...@cam.ac.uk...
> Andrew Eremin wrote:
>
> > "James Kuyper Jr." wrote:
> >
<snippetry>
> or would it depend what form she was in at the time of
> conception?
>
> Not sure I have any answers.
Not sure if I want an answer to the questions that that phrase poses.
andrew...@stealthmunchkin.fsnet.co.uk
news:mvbfqu8m1f4s19mtr...@4ax.com...
> Viv wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:53:22 +1000,:
> >Ender's Game series (three, maybe four books now?). Just don't expect
> >comedy.
>
> thing. I'm not sure about the way he handles religion. (IIRC he's a pretty
> vocal mormon)
He is, and a homophobe with it, which makes it difficult for me at least to
enjoy his stuff. YMMV.
--
http://www.stealthmunchkin.com
Stealth Munchkin at Team Hi-Fi Records battle of the Bands, 22 October,
Labour Club, Wigan
Viv
<andrew...@stealthmunchkin.fsnet.co.uk> uttered:
>"Aleks A.-Lessmann" <al...@lessmann-consulting.com> wrote in message
>news:mvbfqu8m1f4s19mtr...@4ax.com...
>> Viv wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:53:22 +1000,:
>> >Ender's Game series (three, maybe four books now?). Just don't expect
>> >comedy.
>>
>> Six IIRC. And he somehow expects people to have 4-6 children as a normal
>> thing. I'm not sure about the way he handles religion. (IIRC he's a pretty
>> vocal mormon)
>
>He is, and a homophobe with it, which makes it difficult for me at least to
>enjoy his stuff. YMMV.
Every writer comes with baggage. I don't think Card's Mormonism intrudes
overly much on the Ender series. His writing's never struck me as
homophobic, so if he's more rigid in his personal life than in his stories
I'm sad for him.
I find his stuff thought-provoking, and I like his grand scale of
storytelling. That's enough for me to make an author worth recommending to
others. The author may not be a perfect person (who is?), but he's worth
reading. That simple.
Considering the number of famous authors (and other artists) that have been
substance abusers, wife abusers, homophobes, political extremists and
probably worse do you truly find it impossible to enjoy works they've
created that are beyond their baser selves? Isn't that part of the power of
the creative process?
I've even read Ayn Rand and found it a real page-turner, and I can't think
of any author I would be less likely to invite to luncheon. (Crap endings,
though.) Reading stuff by folks whose opinions disturb you can be
fascinating.
Stevie D
> Considering the number of famous authors (and other artists) that have been
> substance abusers, wife abusers, homophobes, political extremists and
> probably worse do you truly find it impossible to enjoy works they've
> created that are beyond their baser selves? Isn't that part of the power of
> the creative process?
It depends on whether their personal problems/deficiencies/whatever
interfere with their creative works. If there is no effect, it often
does not bother me. If their writing/acting/whatever shows signs of
it, then I do object.
--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
andrew...@stealthmunchkin.fsnet.co.uk
news:i0eiqusfia0icfih9...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:10:50 +0100,
> <andrew...@stealthmunchkin.fsnet.co.uk> uttered:
> >"Aleks A.-Lessmann" <al...@lessmann-consulting.com> wrote in message
> >news:mvbfqu8m1f4s19mtr...@4ax.com...
> >> Viv wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:53:22 +1000,:
>
> Considering the number of famous authors (and other artists) that have
been
> substance abusers, wife abusers, homophobes, political extremists and
> probably worse do you truly find it impossible to enjoy works they've
> created that are beyond their baser selves? Isn't that part of the power
of
> the creative process?
Absolutely - that's why I said YMMV. To my mind Card's work *reads like*
someone with the religious/political opinions he's stated, and I find it
hard to get past that. Someone like George Orwell was also a homophobe, but
in his case that doesn't come across in the 'authorial voice' - it's an
opinion which he had but which was inconsistent with his general personality
as expressed in his writing...
> I've even read Ayn Rand and found it a real page-turner, and I can't think
> of any author I would be less likely to invite to luncheon. (Crap endings,
> though.) Reading stuff by folks whose opinions disturb you can be
> fascinating.
Absolutely, though I can't stand Rand's work either (just seems didactic to
me). But the difference is I'm not 'disturbed' by homophobia - it's just
something I disagree with, and if a writer's opinions tend to go that way
I'm less likely to enjoy that writer's work...
Lesley Weston
wy...@optusnet.com.au wrote on 13/10/2002 2:30 AM:
<snip>
> Every writer comes with baggage.
<snip>
> I've even read Ayn Rand and found it a real page-turner, and I can't think
> of any author I would be less likely to invite to luncheon. (Crap endings,
> though.) Reading stuff by folks whose opinions disturb you can be
> fascinating.
Reading only people whose ideas don't make you react is not terribly
stimulating. I enjoy Angela Thirkell's books almost as much as Terry
Pratchett's, though her politics as expressed in her books are
objectionable. She wrote so well and used language so cleverly that I'm
willing to put up with those of her ideas that I don't care for. The same
goes for Heinlein; his political ideas were a lot nastier than Thirkell's,
but I still enjoy his work, except his later books when everybody started
calling each other "Dear" and having group hugs.
Lesley Weston.
PussInSpooks
>From: "James Kuyper Jr." kuy...@wizard.net
>>>PussInSpooks wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, could you either expand on that or say it again in different words?
>I
>> can't figure out just what you mean
>However, since Angua undergoes a major bodily change every time there's
>a full moon, I suspect that her menstrual cycle is tightly synchronized
>with it. She'll always be in the same part of that cycle, every time
>there's a full moon. This implies, if werewolf pregnancy lengths are as
>consistent as human ones, that the moon is likely to be in the pretty
>much the same phase every time a werewolf child is born.
>
>
>Evolution would favor making werewolf pregnancies last until whichever
>time of the lunar month makes it easiest for the children to be born
>safely. If the newborn children would also be in wolf form, then having
>them born during the full moon would probably be best.
<snip rest>
Thanks for that, I think I know what you mean now. Though it isn't true that
all human women have a cycle of that lenth, in fact from an informal poll
amongs female friends I am not even sure that it is 'most'.
That aside, it doesn't actually bear too much thinking about, the mechanics of
all this.. when she is pregnant, will the unborn children 'morph' when she
does? What is they are a variant that doesn't 'morph', how would her body cope
with that?
PussInSpooks
>What happens if the mother
>changes shape during the birth[1]?
>
>Joerg
>
>[1] I'd advise not to do that ;-)
I think thats actually what I was getting at originally, would they need a
midwife AND a vet on hand?
PussInSpooks
>Would a werewolf have somewhere between
>these values, or would it depend what form she was in at the time of
>conception?
>
>Not sure I have any answers.
I don't even want to *think* about her and Carrot 'getting down to it' during a
full moon, ta very much! ;-)
James Kuyper Jr.
>>Subject: Re: Carrot and Angua's children
>>From: "James Kuyper Jr." kuy...@wizard.net
> Thanks for that, I think I know what you mean now. Though it isn't true that
I didn't say they were; in fact, quite the opposite. According to
sources I checked, it's fairly normal for menstrual cycles to have
periods ranging from 26 to 34 days in length. My point was that
werewolves are likely to have much less variation in their cycles than
human women, because the phase of the moon actually matters for their
physiology. In contrast, it's not at all obvious that the closeness of
the human cycle to the lunar one is anything more than a coincidence.
There's no obvious reason why the lunar cycle should have any
significance for human females.
Vivek Dasmohapatra
[snip]
> physiology. In contrast, it's not at all obvious that the closeness of
> the human cycle to the lunar one is anything more than a
> coincidence. There's no obvious reason why the lunar cycle should have
> any significance for human females.
Well, there is one: Left over evolutionary baggage. Assuming that
there was an ancestral creature to which the tides mattered for
reproductive purposes, a lunar cycle is not an unreasonable
adaptation. Of course, it's just cruft for now, but until we can
go in and write Human 2.0 from scratch...
--
The time for action is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering.
James Kuyper Jr.
> "James Kuyper Jr." <kuy...@wizard.net> writes:
>
> [snip]
>
>>physiology. In contrast, it's not at all obvious that the closeness of
>>the human cycle to the lunar one is anything more than a
>>coincidence. There's no obvious reason why the lunar cycle should have
>>any significance for human females.
>
>
> Well, there is one: Left over evolutionary baggage. Assuming that
> there was an ancestral creature to which the tides mattered for
> reproductive purposes, a lunar cycle is not an unreasonable
> adaptation. Of course, it's just cruft for now, but until we can
> go in and write Human 2.0 from scratch...
>
I think that our last ancestor who could plausibly have had such
dependence was not even a mammal. The menstrual cycle is part of what
makes us mammals.
It has been suggested that many peculiar human features could be
explained by human beings having recently returned from a brief period
when we were specialized for a semi-aquatic lifestyle along shorelines.
James P. Hogan used this idea in his "Gentle Giants of Ganymede" series.
Those features include the webbing between our fingers, and our relative
hairlessness; a menstrual cycle tied to the lunar period would also be a
plausible adaptation. However, I find the evidence for this hypothesis
unconvincing; mainly through the lack of supporting fossil evidence.
Hogan's version explains the lack of fossils: we spent this time on
another planet. But that goes a little too far for serious biologists.
Vivek Dasmohapatra
[snip]
> > Well, there is one: Left over evolutionary baggage. Assuming that
> > there was an ancestral creature to which the tides mattered for
> > reproductive purposes, a lunar cycle is not an unreasonable
> > adaptation. Of course, it's just cruft for now, but until we can go
> > in and write Human 2.0 from scratch...
>
> I think that our last ancestor who could plausibly have had such
> dependence was not even a mammal. The menstrual cycle is part of what
> makes us mammals.
So what? Cruft is cruft. As long as there's no pressure to remove/
change it, it stays: Once a 28 day cycle has been written in, it
isn't going to go away until it's explicitly overwritten or short
circuited or whatever - it may drift, or get reused for some other
biological, um, thingy, or become less accurate, but it's still there.
Our skin is still made of scales. We still have to carry our own
portable oceans with us. If it comes to that, we still have to host
strange little creatures in our cells so we can survive in a free-oxygen
environment.
Perhaps a vet could enlighten us - are there any mammals with a
menstrual cycle radically different from (and not a multiple of)
the lunar/tidal cycle?
Followups set to afp before I get lynched...
--
"Aren't you ashamed of yourself?"
"No, I have people to do that for me."
Stevie D
> In contrast, it's not at all obvious that the closeness of
> the human cycle to the lunar one is anything more than a coincidence.
> There's no obvious reason why the lunar cycle should have any
> significance for human females.
Especially since in TSOD, we are told that several species that are
closely related to us do not have a 4-week menstrual cycle.
Thomas Johnson
> Vivek Dasmohapatra wrote:
>
>> "James Kuyper Jr." <kuy...@wizard.net> writes:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> physiology. In contrast, it's not at all obvious that the closeness of
>>> the human cycle to the lunar one is anything more than a
>>> coincidence. There's no obvious reason why the lunar cycle should have
>>> any significance for human females.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, there is one: Left over evolutionary baggage. Assuming that
>> there was an ancestral creature to which the tides mattered for
>> reproductive purposes, a lunar cycle is not an unreasonable
>> adaptation. Of course, it's just cruft for now, but until we can go in
>> and write Human 2.0 from scratch...
>>
>
> I think that our last ancestor who could plausibly have had such
> dependence was not even a mammal. The menstrual cycle is part of what
> makes us mammals.
Though the vast majority of mammals don't menstrate and the cycle is known as the oestrus cycle
Igenlode Wordsmith
[re Angua's parents]
> Their litter consisted of two
> bimorphics, a wolf and a humanoid.
>
> If these were all from one pregnancy, it means that the unborn
> children can be any shape at any time without harming the mother
> in any of her forms.
[snip]
>
> But if the kids are all different ages, we can't draw these
> conclusions. Anyone know if this is mentioned in T5E?
>
The four were described as a 'litter' - this implies that they were all
at one birth. Unless werewolves like to use the term much more loosely,
simply as a suitably 'lupine' metaphor for 'siblings', for example...
--
Igenlode Visit the Ivory Tower (http://curry.250x.com/Tower/)
careen (archaic): clean a ship's hull - career: travel wildly out of control
PussInSpooks
>From: "James Kuyper Jr." kuy...@wizard.net
>PussInSpooks wrote:
>Though it isn't true that
>> all human women have a cycle of that lenth, ...
>
>I didn't say they were; in fact, quite the opposite.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't mean that you had said that only that
it seems to be a common assumption, though I didn't read anything in your post
to the opposite effect, must have missed it, sorry 'bout that.
David Brown
------------------------------------------
"James Kuyper Jr." <kuy...@wizard.net> wrote in message
news:3DA20AFB...@wizard.net...
>
> I strongly suspect that the Borgias were more of an inspiration for the
> character of Vetinari than the mafia were.
>
Igenlode Wordsmith
Remember the manner in which Carrot *first* discovers that Angua is a
werewolf..? :-)
--
Igenlode <Igen...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
ingenious paradox
>Terry Pratchett <Te...@unseen.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>>
>> Quite. And I didn't exactly slit my wrists over it. it was just
>> puzzling that a newsgroup that's invents convoluted annotations for a
>> pastime didn't spot Vetinari/Medici.
>
>Perhaps those who did thought it so obvious they didn't annotate,
>having better things to do with their time.
or maybe, like me, they always pronounced it "vet'nARee" so missed the
veterinary pun completely....
(I always read Medici as "meDEEchee", too..... the printed word mizled
me again).
Logical bonds
Julie
- I like confusion - it's like education, only different.
MikeXXXX, afp, 16-5-02
Kristian Damm Jensen
>
> Remember the manner in which Carrot *first* discovers that Angua is a
> werewolf..? :-)
Yup. And immediately he whips out his sword - again.
--
Kristian Damm Jensen | Feed the hungry at www.thehungersite.com
kristian-d...@cgey.com | Two wrongs doesn't make a right,
ICQ# 146728724 | but three lefts do.
Terry Pratchett
<julie.w...@btinternet.com> writes
>or maybe, like me, they always pronounced it "vet'nARee" so missed the
>veterinary pun completely....
Why would you miss the pun that way? The spelling itself pretty much
echoes Medici.
--
Terry Pratchett