TLC and the god of evolution
Daniel Orner
it briefly in the past, but I don't recall what was said about it.
Some
spoiler
space
but
not
too
much, really, since it isn't *that* much of a spoiler...
In The Last Continent, which I've just finished re-reading, the god of
evolution seems to present two very conflicting viewpoints during his
discussion with the wizards. On the one hand, it seems like he'd never
seen wizards before, asking about beards and whether they're gods or
tool-using creatures, etc. On the other, he says he'd been a generic god
before, what with all the sacrifices and inflammable cows and
commandments, and how when they made humanity they must have broken the
mold.
So which is it? Is he familiar with humans or not? I've read this book
probably close to seven or eight times so far, and I've never figured it
out.
Patrician
"Daniel Orner" <webm...@ffcompendium.com> wrote in message
news:fvqhl3$uj$1...@mud.stack.nl...
He knew about humans, he didn't know about wizards.
Richard Eney
My best guess at it is based on some of the early material. As I understand
it, the first batch of humans and the first wizards were very different from
the current sort; the wizards are weaker, the humans are different. One of
those differences may explain why the god of evolution only makes one of
everything. Other differences may explain his lack of familiarity with
some very obvious-to-us facts about humans (and Discly wizards). If the
early version of humanity required a special creation for each individual,
no wonder he tired of the game.
=Tamar
Sabremeister Brian
Remember that this is 30,000 years ago. Humans probably hadn't
evolved wizards as we would recognise them - maybe each tribe had
a shaman or two who could use magic, or something similar, but no
great organisational edifice of them existed - UU itself, the
oldest and greatest magical institution on the Disc, is only 2,000
years old. It is more than likely that the GoE would not have
manifested in the direct presence of modern wizards while he was
still doing his jobbing God-ing. He may not have manifested
directly to his worshippers, even, but he would have been able to
hear their prayers, appreciate their sacrifices, and observe and
take notes for improvement and so on, and even hurl the occasional
thunderbolt at them if it seemed necessary.
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Richard Eney
These were very local gods, too. Each little group had its own.
Maybe each little group was separately created by its local god,
and they really were different peoples. The God of Evolution
may have had to separately create each of his worshippers. When
any of them died, he either had to create a new one or do without;
there were no offspring since he didn't know about reproduction.
I'm assuming they didn't bud off, since even his plants didn't
reproduce - though they did evolve to be perceived as worthy of
existence/too useful to destroy.
=Tamar
Daniel Orner
All this is just confusing me more. So you're saying that every god had
to create each person individually? And that the god of evolution is the
one who came up with the idea of evolution, and it then "spread out" to
everywhere else on the Disc at once? That seems a little much... I
didn't see that in the book at all; the whole point was that he was
concentrating on one island.
As for the idea that the wizards are different from humanity as a
whole, I think if the god knew about humanity at *all* he'd probably
know them as having opposable thumbs, beards, and the ability to use
tools (certainly the latter - how'd temples get built otherwise?). His
surprise at discovering all this about the wizards seems a bit off; even
if he couldn't recognize them as "his humans" immediately, surely he
would have caught on after all the similarities kept coming up?
Reader in Invisible Writings
appreciate that the clothes were an optional extra. A handkerchief gets
mistaken for a white leaf and, though I can't find it I'm sure he calls
the Wizzards 'Pointy headed creatures'. If his people were of the
'minimal clothes' cultures then he would easily be confused by the
conical looking Wizards in to thinking they were not humans at all and
certainly not of the same type as Mrs Whitlow.
--
Reader in Invisible Writings.. Something to Ponder upon!
Baba Yaga
alt.books.pratchett:
[....]
> As for the idea that the wizards are different from humanity as a
>whole, I think if the god knew about humanity at *all* he'd probably
>know them as having opposable thumbs, beards, and the ability to use
>tools (certainly the latter - how'd temples get built otherwise?). His
That description *does fit quite a few gods. (As do beards,
arrogance, and petty squabbling.)
If the god of evolution is anything like a lot of humans, differences
might be expected to obtrude themselves into his attention much more
strongly than do similarities.
Baba Yaga
--
Never, ever do something /for/ them if they want to do something
themselves, like handing you a cup of tea; however awkward and
terrible, you don't do it for them.
- Helen Bamber
Daniel Orner
> Daniel Orner <webm...@ffcompendium.com> wrote, in
> alt.books.pratchett:
>
> [....]
>> As for the idea that the wizards are different from humanity as a
>> whole, I think if the god knew about humanity at *all* he'd probably
>> know them as having opposable thumbs, beards, and the ability to use
>> tools (certainly the latter - how'd temples get built otherwise?). His
>
> That description *does fit quite a few gods. (As do beards,
> arrogance, and petty squabbling.)
But according to Discworld logic, gods come *after* humans, not before.
In order for gods to have beards and opposable thumbs and whatnot,
they'd have to be modeled after the humans to begin with.
Daniel Orner
But the GoE was surprised at the *utility* of opposable thumbs, not the
fact that the wizards *had* them: that suggests he'd never seen them
before, or at least not on tool-wielding creatures. Surely you're not
suggesting that the humans which the GoE ruled over didn't have them at all?
I suppose all of it is *possible*, but it still seems quite farfetched
to me; it seems more like he has some sort of dual personality of a
totally clueless newbie as well as a frustrated Old Fart, milked for
jokes rather than continuity. If that were the case, frankly, it would
be a quite rare occurrence in the Pratchett oeuvre, and I actually
wouldn't mind so much[1], but I'm just trying to pinpoint whether or not
that *is* the case.
[1] As a writer who inserts humor into most of his writing in some way
or another, it's more surprising that all of his previous
characterizations *have* been consistent and useful.
Reader in Invisible Writings
Contains a IR for Wintersmith amongst others, but more looked to than from.
Reader in Invisible Writings
> Baba Yaga wrote:
>> Daniel Orner <webm...@ffcompendium.com> wrote, in
>> alt.books.pratchett:
>>
>> [....]
>>> As for the idea that the wizards are different from humanity as a
>>> whole, I think if the god knew about humanity at *all* he'd probably
>>> know them as having opposable thumbs, beards, and the ability to use
>>> tools (certainly the latter - how'd temples get built otherwise?). His
>>
>> That description *does fit quite a few gods. (As do beards,
>> arrogance, and petty squabbling.)
>
> But according to Discworld logic, gods come *after* humans, not
> before.
shortly. In the initial high residual magic energy state of post
creation - Gods probably don't need belief to the same extent.
In order for gods to have beards and opposable thumbs and
> whatnot, they'd have to be modeled after the humans to begin with.
>
>>
>> If the god of evolution is anything like a lot of humans, differences
>> might be expected to obtrude themselves into his attention much more
>> strongly than do similarities.
>>
>> Baba Yaga
Alec Cawley
H doesn't know about sex either - but humand advanced enough to set fire
to cows presumably used sex, albeit in private.
Sabremeister Brian
I've just read the relevant passages [2], and they suggest to me
that he only started to become the GoE when he first started
trying to develop the inflammable cow. Up until that point, and
for the brief period after it when he still had worshippers, it
doesn't appear that he had any close contact with actual humans
until the wizards arrived on Mono Island. He probably remembered
the beard and nightshirt from the priests having them, but he
almost certainly didn't bother to manifest (or even observe from a
close vantage point), so he wouldn't be aware of the fine details
of limb-extremity construction, or of the general reproductive
process (cause and effect of sex and babies wasn't fully realised
with a consistent timetable until at least the Elizabethan
period). Plus, the wizards and Mrs Whitlow would appear to him to
be very different from his erstwhile worshippers, and he may not
have realised they were the same species.
--
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"Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be
happy."
- HL Mencken
Daniel Orner
Missing footnote there?
I'm not sure I follow that. He had worshippers but had never manifested
himself to them and had never had close contact with them? How did they
get about worshipping him then?
Regardless of that, the point that still sticks in my craw is the bit
where he's surprised to see opposable thumbs and professes interest in
their utility. Surely he couldn't have been *that* uninterested in his
worshippers, considering he took the time to give them "common sense"
commandments.
Sabremeister Brian
Thank you!
[2] I love being able to access my full library again
> I'm not sure I follow that. He had worshippers but had never
> manifested himself to them and had never had close contact with
> them? How did they get about worshipping him then?
A physical manifestation in front of them is probably not likely
(he appears to the wizards as very short), but that doesn't mean
he didn't manifest to them in their dreams - Quezalovercoatl only
manifested in dreams until the events of Eric, and the Tezumen
priests thought he was thirty feet tall (not six inches).
> Regardless of that, the point that still sticks in my craw is
> the bit where he's surprised to see opposable thumbs and
> professes interest in their utility. Surely he couldn't have
> been *that* uninterested in his worshippers, considering he
> took the time to give them "common sense" commandments.
At the time he had worshippers, the mechanics of how they held the
sacrificial knives was beneath his attention. Mrs Whitlow
proffering her hand was probably the first time anyone had tried
to shake hands with him, and consequently, the first time he'd
been close enough to see a hand with four fingers and opposable
thumb. Remember also that, while he may not have recognised the
wizards as the same species as his worhsippers, he also did not
recognise Mrs Whitlow as being the same species as the wizards.
As a traditional god, all he was concerned with was that people
worshipped him,
--
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"Two wrongs don't make a right, but they make a good excuse."
- Thomas Szasz
Sabremeister Brian
Sabremeister Brian <bpwak...@hotmail.com> said:
[Hit "post" by mistake. To continue...]
> At the time he had worshippers, the mechanics of how they held
> the sacrificial knives was beneath his attention. Mrs Whitlow
> proffering her hand was probably the first time anyone had tried
> to shake hands with him, and consequently, the first time he'd
> been close enough to see a hand with four fingers and opposable
> thumb. Remember also that, while he may not have recognised the
> wizards as the same species as his worhsippers, he also did not
> recognise Mrs Whitlow as being the same species as the wizards.
>
> As a traditional god, all he was concerned with was that people
> worshipped him,
the more people the better. He wasn't concerned with how they
worshipped him (the rituals - except the burnt offerings), nor
with how they went abot worshipping him (how they got the cow to
the altar, how they held the sacrificial knife, how they set fire
to the wood under it after killing it, etc). As long as people
were worshipping him and not some other god, that was all he cared
about. He did his best to ensure at least a continuous level of
worshippers by Commanding them to site the cess-pit a long way
from the hut (and so on), but he didn't give a fig about how they
dug it in the first place.
--
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"Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."
- Woody Allen
Daniel Orner
<snip>
> At the time he had worshippers, the mechanics of how they held the
> sacrificial knives was beneath his attention. Mrs Whitlow
> proffering her hand was probably the first time anyone had tried
> to shake hands with him, and consequently, the first time he'd
> been close enough to see a hand with four fingers and opposable
> thumb. Remember also that, while he may not have recognised the
> wizards as the same species as his worhsippers, he also did not
> recognise Mrs Whitlow as being the same species as the wizards.
>
> As a traditional god, all he was concerned with was that people
> worshipped him,
>
But he'd obviously moved past being a traditional god as soon as he
started being curious about the inflammable cow. Surely he'd start by
studying the creatures who were worshipping him?
Reader in Invisible Writings
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> In a speech called 68jmodF...@mid.individual.net,
> Sabremeister Brian <bpwak...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> [Hit "post" by mistake. To continue...]
>
>> At the time he had worshippers, the mechanics of how they held
>> the sacrificial knives was beneath his attention. Mrs Whitlow
>> proffering her hand was probably the first time anyone had tried
>> to shake hands with him, and consequently, the first time he'd
>> been close enough to see a hand with four fingers and opposable
>> thumb. Remember also that, while he may not have recognised the
>> wizards as the same species as his worhsippers, he also did not
>> recognise Mrs Whitlow as being the same species as the wizards.
Further evidence that he's not actually familiar with the *concept* of
humans, which doesn't jibe with what he says about followers.
>> As a traditional god, all he was concerned with was that people
>> worshipped him,
> the more people the better. He wasn't concerned with how they
> worshipped him (the rituals - except the burnt offerings),
Actually, he didn't seem particularly concerned about that either; he'd
noticed the *humans* seemed to think it was important to sacrifice
animals to him, so he let them.
> nor
> with how they went abot worshipping him (how they got the cow to
> the altar, how they held the sacrificial knife, how they set fire
> to the wood under it after killing it, etc). As long as people
> were worshipping him and not some other god, that was all he cared
> about. He did his best to ensure at least a continuous level of
> worshippers by Commanding them to site the cess-pit a long way
> from the hut (and so on), but he didn't give a fig about how they
> dug it in the first place.
But he noticed they had. And he noticed that tiny creatures breeding
within the cesspit were the causes of illness. And he noticed that cows
didn't burn very well and did experiments, because humans seemed to want
to burn them. He was clearly a long way from being a traditional god long
before he headed to Mono Island.
But in all that time between developing his new philosophy and the
extermination of his followers, apparently, not a flicker of curiosity
about humans themselves, to the point where he doesn't even know what
they looked like.
My theory is that, in the same way as he gains an insight into what a god
should look like and how to speak Morporkian from the wizards, he also
learns how to phrase his story in terms they'll understand. His former
worshippers were actually a crab civilisation, similar to the one in
Science of Discworld, and the sacrifices were sea slugs (which are even
damper than cows).
--
Dave
So I looked, and behold, a pale horse.
And the name of him who sat on it was Death.
And the name of the horse was Binky.
Anery
>
<snip>
>
> My theory is that, in the same way as he gains an insight into what a god
> should look like and how to speak Morporkian from the wizards, he also
> learns how to phrase his story in terms they'll understand. His former
> worshippers were actually a crab civilisation, similar to the one in
> Science of Discworld, and the sacrifices were sea slugs (which are even
> damper than cows).
>
civilisations, based on various species. It might be crabs. Or it
might be lizards which sacrificed genuine cows. Or something entirely
different. OTOH, he might have known some humanoid groups which didn't
have any recognizable marks of civilisation, and perhaps didn't even
use tools much. Humans clearly weren't special to him.
>
Also, he was obviously not much impressed by his worshippers, whatever
species they were. He paid a bit of attention to them for a probably
very limited time, perhaps just enough for him to turn from a small
god to a deity of recognizable power. From that time on, he devoted
most of his time and energy to evolution. He didn't need worshippers
more - his belief in himself was sufficient to keep him strong.
Anery