-[R]- Possible Annotation for The Fifth Elephant
Esmeraldus
it's old news.
Maybe someone can come up with the page...
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There's a bit where Vimes's party is attacked in a pass on the way to
Uberwald. They get through it, but half a dozen or so of the attackers are
killed, most of them by the "clerk."
In _A Memoir of Jane Austen_ by J.E. Austen Leigh, there is a similar story.
It's not directly from the Memoir, though, it's something Austen Leigh
rememberes from somewhere else--I don't know where.
Austen Leigh writes about settlers in "England beyond Wales":
...for the double purpose of keeping open communication with Ireland from
Milford Haven, and for overawing the Welsh. One of the family seems to have
carried out this latter purpose very vigorously; for it is recorded of him
that he slew *twenty-six men* of Kemaes, a district of Wales, and *one
wolf*. (Austen Leigh's emphasis)
He continues, explaining that classing them together was remarkable, but the
wolves had been killed off enough that it had rarity value.
Of course, why I point it out is the "thirty men and a dog" story about
Vimes.
Changing the wolf to a dog is interesting: funny-ridiculous, but also avoids
any plot tip-offs. Or maybe it IS a plot tip-off, given that it later
becomes true *because* of the sliver of dogginess in the werewolves.
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." Catherine Aird, _His Burial Too_
http://esmeraldus.blogspot.com/
Richard Eney
Esmeraldus <esmer...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I just read T5E for my exams, or I might not have noticed this. Or maybe
>it's old news.
>
>Maybe someone can come up with the page...
>
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>There's a bit where Vimes's party is attacked in a pass on the way to
>Uberwald. They get through it, but half a dozen or so of the attackers
>are killed, most of them by the "clerk."
>
>In _A Memoir of Jane Austen_ by J.E. Austen Leigh, there is a similar
>story. It's not directly from the Memoir, though, it's something
>
>Austen Leigh writes about settlers in "England beyond Wales":
>
>...for the double purpose of keeping open communication with Ireland
>from Milford Haven, and for overawing the Welsh. One of the family
>seems to have carried out this latter purpose very vigorously; for it
>is recorded of him that he slew *twenty-six men* of Kemaes, a district
>of Wales, and *one wolf*. (Austen Leigh's emphasis)
>
>He continues, explaining that classing them together was remarkable,
>but the wolves had been killed off enough that it had rarity value.
>
>Of course, why I point it out is the "thirty men and a dog" story
>about Vimes.
It's a great connection, and I don't think it's been reported before.
>Changing the wolf to a dog is interesting: funny-ridiculous, but also
>avoids any plot tip-offs. Or maybe it IS a plot tip-off, given that
>it later becomes true *because* of the sliver of dogginess in the
>werewolves.
I think Uberwald local culture would react strongly to a tale of
Vimes killing a wolf. Vimes killing a dog would not be as likely
to upset certain Uberwald nobles, so it's a "safer" story. Of
course, after he really did perform acts which led to the death of
a werewolf, the story would be updated.
=Tamar
Esmeraldus
> In article <gzwsh.13549$yx6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Esmeraldus <esmer...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Of course, why I point it out is the "thirty men and a dog" story
>> about Vimes.
>
> It's a great connection, and I don't think it's been reported
> before.
Thanks, I was begining to think I'd imagined posting this. :-)
Anke
> In article <gzwsh.13549$yx6.3...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>
>
>
> Esmeraldus <esmeral...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I just read T5E for my exams, or I might not have noticed this.
> > Or maybe it's old news.
>
> >Maybe someone can come up with the page...
>
> >18 lines of spoiler space
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>I think Uberwald local culture would react strongly to a tale of
> Vimes killing a wolf. Vimes killing a dog would not be as likely
> to upset certain Uberwald nobles, so it's a "safer" story.
Didn't Angua at some point say that werewolves sometimes
hunt wolves? I certainly got the impression werewolves didn't
give a hoot about wolves.
Or are the nobles you were thinking of vampires missing the
howling?
Anke
esmi
> Richard Eney wrote:
>> It's a great connection, and I don't think it's been reported
>> before.
> Thanks, I was begining to think I'd imagined posting this. :-)
Generally speaking, post-annotation silence can be viewed as a sign that
you may really have picked up something new. Had it been totally
ridiculous or previously annotated hereabouts, you can bet your bottom
dollar than at least 5 people would have said so in rapid succession. ;-)
Have you passed this onto Leo? a...@lspace.org
--
esmi
A Brief Guide to alt.fan.pratchett:
http://www.blackwidows.co.uk/afp-guide/
Esmeraldus
> on 24/01/2007 03:49 Esmeraldus said the following:
>> Richard Eney wrote:
>
>>> It's a great connection, and I don't think it's been reported
>>> before.
>
>> Thanks, I was begining to think I'd imagined posting this. :-)
>
> Generally speaking, post-annotation silence can be viewed as a sign
> that you may really have picked up something new. Had it been
> totally ridiculous or previously annotated hereabouts, you can bet
> your bottom dollar than at least 5 people would have said so in
> rapid succession. ;-)
> Have you passed this onto Leo? a...@lspace.org
I haven't, but I was hoping someone would have known where Austen-Leigh got
it. Was there something else written about that relative, for instance... I
thought it was wild that this memoir might have been something Mr. Pratchett
had read.
Alec Cawley
I think wolves vs werewolves would have something of the character of a
"domestic". I think werewolves would be generally against people killing
wolf-shaped things, even though they are themselves unkillable.
Incidentally, why don't werewolves accumulate ad infinitum? We know they
reproduce. If they were immortal, the world would be heaving with them.
If they grow old and die in the usual way, there must be a period
shortly before death when you can, as it were, push them over the edge.
Which means thay they are not actually unkillable, just very hard to kill.
It's Him
"Alec Cawley" <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote in message
news:51plrcF...@mid.individual.net...
They are not unkillable. We know of at least two methods to kill them. One
is to use fire on them and the other uses silver. There is also no
implication of really old werewolves so nobody has suggested immortality (so
perhap they can die of old age as well).
Nigel
Anery
>
> I think wolves vs werewolves would have something of the character of a
> "domestic". I think werewolves would be generally against people killing
> wolf-shaped things, even though they are themselves unkillable.
>
> Incidentally, why don't werewolves accumulate ad infinitum? We know they
> reproduce. If they were immortal, the world would be heaving with them.
> If they grow old and die in the usual way, there must be a period
> shortly before death when you can, as it were, push them over the edge.
> Which means thay they are not actually unkillable, just very hard to kill.
Good question.
It is similar with the vampires. They get killed occasionally, but they
always come back. They don't raise successors but competitors.
Maybe in regions where both species co-exist and behave traditionally,
their hatred against each other makes them killing each other
occasionally at least temporarily, and other species (as humans and
dvarfs) killing them, too. (Sometimes, the killing can even succeed to
be permanent, although it seems to be rare.) Thus, the population
density remains regulated.
The problem may arise if more of them adapt to civilised conditions.
The risk seems to be bigger with vampires than in werewolves, as the
Black Ribboners seem to be quite successful and growing in size, as
opposed to the werevolves, who seem to adapt worse (AFAIK in DW only
Angua managed it, and her brother as a sheepdog).
Maybe some self-regulating mechanism would arise then, which would
reduce their reproductive ability with their number rising above a
certain population density, or even would make them die permanently
after a given time.
Or they will interbreed with humans (or dogs) and their succession will
lose their immortality.
Anery
Anke
I don't understand what you mean when you say "domestic".
What I do understand from the text of The Fifth Elephant is that wolves
hate werevolves, and those don't particularly like wolves, either...
Strongest point I remember and can find in a hurry:
page 201 of the Corgi paperback version
'Gavin's people hate my family,' Angua was saying. 'I told you,
it's always wolves who suffer when werewolves get too powerful.
Werewolves are smarter at escaping from hunters. That's why
wolves much prefer vampires. Vampires leave them alone.
Werewolves sometimes hunt wolves.'
'I'm surprised,' said Carrot.
Angua shrugged. 'Why? They hunt humans, don't they? [...]'
Anke
Alec Cawley
A "domestic" is a police term when they intervene in a domestic dispute,
usually a fight between husband and wife, and both parties then turn on
the police who were trying to protect them from each other.
> I don't understand what you mean when you say "domestic".
> What I do understand from the text of The Fifth Elephant is that wolves
> hate werevolves, and those don't particularly like wolves, either...
That does not contradict my view that werewolves might regard wolves as
"hated family" and insist on first rights in attacking htem.
Lesley Weston
Esmeraldus at muclu...@mypacks.net wrote on 24/01/2007 10:00 AM:
<snip>
> I haven't, but I was hoping someone would have known where Austen-Leigh got
> it. Was there something else written about that relative, for instance... I
> thought it was wild that this memoir might have been something Mr. Pratchett
> had read.
Why not? He's read everything else.
--
Lesley Weston.
Brightly_coloured_blob is real, but I don't often check even the few bits
that get through Yahoo's filters. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca,
changing spelling and spacing as required.
Esmeraldus
news:C1DE7B0E.56D3B%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk...
> in article 19Nth.14104$pQ3....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net,
> Esmeraldus at muclu...@mypacks.net wrote on 24/01/2007 10:00 AM:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I haven't, but I was hoping someone would have known where Austen-Leigh
>> got
>> it. Was there something else written about that relative, for instance...
>> I
>> thought it was wild that this memoir might have been something Mr.
>> Pratchett
>> had read.
>
> Why not? He's read everything else.
Not everything. When I read Carpe Jugulum, I was *convinced* he'd read
Tristram Shandy. I soon after had the opportunity to ask him, in person,
whether he had.
He hadn't.
Of course, he might've done in the interval.
Lesley Weston
wrote on 25/01/2007 4:23 PM:
> "Lesley Weston" <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:C1DE7B0E.56D3B%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk...
>> in article 19Nth.14104$pQ3....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net,
>> Esmeraldus at muclu...@mypacks.net wrote on 24/01/2007 10:00 AM:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I haven't, but I was hoping someone would have known where Austen-Leigh
>>> got
>>> it. Was there something else written about that relative, for instance...
>>> I
>>> thought it was wild that this memoir might have been something Mr.
>>> Pratchett
>>> had read.
>>
>> Why not? He's read everything else.
>
> Not everything. When I read Carpe Jugulum, I was *convinced* he'd read
> Tristram Shandy. I soon after had the opportunity to ask him, in person,
> whether he had.
>
> He hadn't.
>
> Of course, he might've done in the interval.
Nor have I. I'm not sure what that indicates. What I have done, though, is
order Austen-Leigh's Memoir from the library. I think I have read it but I
can't remember it, so thank you for reminding me of it.
Richard Eney
Esmeraldus <muclu...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>"Lesley Weston" <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:C1DE7B0E.56D3B%brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk...
>> in article 19Nth.14104$pQ3....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net,
>> Esmeraldus at muclu...@mypacks.net wrote on 24/01/2007 10:00 AM:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I haven't, but I was hoping someone would have known where Austen-Leigh
>>> got
>>> it. Was there something else written about that relative, for instance...
>>> I
>>> thought it was wild that this memoir might have been something Mr.
>>> Pratchett
>>> had read.
>>
>> Why not? He's read everything else.
>
>Not everything. When I read Carpe Jugulum, I was *convinced* he'd read
>Tristram Shandy. I soon after had the opportunity to ask him, in person,
>whether he had.
>He hadn't.
What in CJ reminded you of Tristram Shandy? (I have read it and enjoyed
it thoroughly, though it was a long time ago.)
=Tamar
Esmeraldus
> What in CJ reminded you of Tristram Shandy? (I have read it and
> enjoyed it thoroughly, though it was a long time ago.)
The naming ceremony--once it's been *said*....
Richard Eney
Esmeraldus <esmer...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Richard Eney wrote:
>
>> What in CJ reminded you of Tristram Shandy? (I have read it and
>> enjoyed it thoroughly, though it was a long time ago.)
>
>The naming ceremony--once it's been *said*....
Okay, that's pretty close. I had the impression that the naming
problem in Tristram Shandy was simply due to the reality here on
Roundworld that the name, having been given and recorded, was
permanent unless changed in court.
The possibility of a mistake has been used for humour by other
authors. I vaguely recall a story of several brothers all of
whom had the same name because whenever the father got to the
registry office he forgot whatever name the mother had chosen
and gave the only one he could remember. I think I have read some
reminiscences of the 1920s (or thereabouts) with similar incidents
of forgetfulness. ISTR the Bob Newhart TV show had three brothers
in Vermont who were all named Darryl, but I think the same idea
had been used in print before.
There are other tales (some true) of infants given odd names because
parents of limited experience misunderstood something an official
said. E.g., Alfred Bester wrote of a character named "Fee-Mally"
(the semi-literate mother saw the word "female" on the doctor's
notes and liked it).
Terry uses that sort of thing fairly often, e.g.: "Legitimate First"
(NW), "Female Infant Brown" (WFM).
=Tamar
Clare
> In article <fiBvh.16131$pQ3.8...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
My auntie was allegedly nearly christened Mary instead of Pauline.
Apparently the priest at the church regularly forgot, and thought a
village full of Marys and Johns would go un-noticed... Either he had
a particularly lucid day when auntie was christened, or he got a
pointed reminder - probably Grandad's elbow ;)
Lesley Weston
c...@medphysics.leeds.ac.uk wrote on 02/02/2007 5:20 AM:
> On 2 Feb, 00:06, dicc...@radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
>> In article <fiBvh.16131$pQ3.8...@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>
>> Esmeraldus <esmeral...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Richard Eney wrote:
>>
>>>> What in CJ reminded you of Tristram Shandy? (I have read it and
>>>> enjoyed it thoroughly, though it was a long time ago.)
>>
>>> The naming ceremony--once it's been *said*....
<snip>
>>
>> Terry uses that sort of thing fairly often, e.g.: "Legitimate First"
>> (NW), "Female Infant Brown" (WFM).
>>
>> =Tamar
>
> My auntie was allegedly nearly christened Mary instead of Pauline.
> Apparently the priest at the church regularly forgot, and thought a
> village full of Marys and Johns would go un-noticed... Either he had
> a particularly lucid day when auntie was christened, or he got a
> pointed reminder - probably Grandad's elbow ;)
>
A great-aunt of mine should have been Dorothy Mary, but while her father was
walking to the registry office to register her birth, he decided that that
was far too big a name for such a little creature, so she became Dora May.
Or so family legend has it, anyway.