[A] Guards! Guards!
David Deephanphongs
line: "The did terrible things to the water, in Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk
was only the start of its problems."
You could take this on its own, but it seems like PTerry's having some fun
with what's (to me) one of the more memorable Douglas Adams quotes:
"`You'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's
unpleasantly like being drunk.'
`What's so unpleasant about being drunk?'
`You ask a glass of water.'"
Dave
--
A true beanie should have a propellor on the top.
-- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
nyra
>
> I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the other day, and came across an interesting
> line: "The did terrible things to the water, in Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk
> was only the start of its problems."
It doesn't really feel like pTerry is suggesting that water in
Ankh-Morpork gets pissed (oops).
> You could take this on its own, but it seems like PTerry's having some fun
> with what's (to me) one of the more memorable Douglas Adams quotes:
> "`You'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's
> unpleasantly like being drunk.'
> `What's so unpleasant about being drunk?'
> `You ask a glass of water.'"
No, i don't see a connection. DNA clearly plays on the
misunderstanding of "being drunk" as "being inebriated" by Arthur
Dent, where Ford Prefect means "getting poured down an oesophagus".
And i don't think this misunderstanding is intended in _Guards!
Guards!_; it wouldn't add anything to the passage, either.
Thanks for quoting the bit from _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the
Galaxy_, btw; i finally understood it - it had me mystified for
years.
Weird Beard
news:3cef4441$1...@nopics.sjc:
> I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the other day, and came across an
> interesting line: "The did terrible things to the water, in
> Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk was only the start of its problems."
>
> You could take this on its own, but it seems like PTerry's having some
> fun with what's (to me) one of the more memorable Douglas Adams
> quotes: "`You'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's
> unpleasantly like being drunk.'
> `What's so unpleasant about being drunk?'
> `You ask a glass of water.'"
>
> Dave
>
So now every book in which water gets drunk is stealing from Hitchhiker's?
David Deephanphongs
> David Deephanphongs <dee...@NOSPAM.telocity.net> wrote in
> news:3cef4441$1...@nopics.sjc:
>
>> I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the other day, and came across an
>> interesting line: "The did terrible things to the water, in
>> Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk was only the start of its problems."
>>
>
What?
No.
Adams proposes horrible thing: Being drunk, from the water's perspective.
Pratchett says, "Hey, that's only the start of the problem."
WTF?? You can't reference something without being a thief?
Dave
--
A man threw himself through the window, a knife between his teeth, a
Kalashnikov automatic rifle in one hand, a grenade in the other. "I glaim
gis oteg in der gaing og der --" he paused. He tooke the knife out of his
teeth and began again.
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
David Deephanphongs
> David Deephanphongs schrieb:
>>
>> I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the other day, and came across an interesting
>> line: "The did terrible things to the water, in Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk
>> was only the start of its problems."
>
> It doesn't really feel like pTerry is suggesting that water in
> Ankh-Morpork gets pissed (oops).
>
>> You could take this on its own, but it seems like PTerry's having some fun
>> with what's (to me) one of the more memorable Douglas Adams quotes:
>> "`You'd better be prepared for the jump into hyperspace. It's
>> unpleasantly like being drunk.'
>> `What's so unpleasant about being drunk?'
>> `You ask a glass of water.'"
>
> No, i don't see a connection. DNA clearly plays on the
> misunderstanding of "being drunk" as "being inebriated" by Arthur
> Dent, where Ford Prefect means "getting poured down an oesophagus".
> And i don't think this misunderstanding is intended in _Guards!
> Guards!_; it wouldn't add anything to the passage, either.
Sorry for the long quote -- I couldn't figure out where to snip...
I think that PTerry could be directly referencing the Adams' quote:
He's saying, "Hah! You think getting drunk (ingested) is bad? That's
only the start of the problems with the Ankh."
As for whether the misunderstanding adds anything to G!G!, I don't
think it needs to. The humor is in the reference; the Gollum works in
Witches Abroad because it's essentially a cameo -- not because of it's
(his?) cautionary tale of the corruption of power.
>
> Thanks for quoting the bit from _The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the
> Galaxy_, btw; i finally understood it - it had me mystified for
> years.
>
Glad I could help. :)
--
The point, young people, is that there is a right way and a wrong way
to prepare for your SATs, and unless you are even stupider than you
look, you want to do it the right way.
- Dave Barry
Diane L.
Weird Beard <weird...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9219B4EC7263Dwe...@204.127.36.1...
> David Deephanphongs <dee...@NOSPAM.telocity.net> wrote in
> news:3cef4441$1...@nopics.sjc:
>
> > I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the other day, and came across an
> > interesting line: "The did terrible things to the water, in
> > Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk was only the start of its problems."
> >
> > You could take this on its own, but it seems like PTerry's having some
> > fun with what's (to me) one of the more memorable Douglas Adams
> > quotes:
>
Might I suggest that you take a deep breath and read the above quote again?
I see no mention of stealing, or of the dreaded "p" word, just a suggestion
that Terry was refering to a joke by another author and taking it a little
further. I know we get stupid people every now and then who can't believe
that a successful author can have an original thought, but that doesn't
mean that every would be annotator is one of them.
FWIW, David, I don't think the connection is obvious enough to stand as
an annotation (without confirmation from the man himself, anyway). To
me, it was just a reference to the oft quoted "fact" about London's water
(i.e. that it has passed through seven other people before it gets to you).
Diane L.
James Morrissey
Damn straight.
JQM
Ash
> I was re-reading Guards! Guards! the
> other day, and came across an interesting
> in Ankh-Morpork. Being drunk was only
> the start of its problems."
>
> You could take this on its own, but it
> seems like PTerry's having some fun
> Douglas Adams quotes:
[Memorable DA quote snipped]
> Dave
I expect PTerry has read the Hitchhiker books, or heard the
radio-series at some point. But it's a pretty reasonable quip to
produce when the subject of water appears: something along the
lines of "Drop of water arrives in the Big City, gets drunk
until it's pissed..." (Student life, anyone?)
If you get enough good humourous writers to tell jokes for long
enough, the effect will be comparable to the million monkeys
with typewriters.
Similarly, many children's imaginative compositions will end
"...and I woke up and it was all a dream. The End." They don't
necessarily copy each other - it just happens.
OTOH, if it *is* (parody of) / (drawn from) the Hitchhiker book,
it's not one of PTerry's best extentions of an idea, although he
has implied what will happen to the water later.
Ash
Terry Pratchett
<dee...@NOSPAM.telocity.net> writes
>Adams proposes horrible thing: Being drunk, from the water's perspective.
>
>Pratchett says, "Hey, that's only the start of the problem."
>
>WTF?? You can't reference something without being a thief?
No connection was intended; if fact, I've tended to try to keep away
from anything that might be associated with HHGTTG. You may, of
course, see a reference if you wish to do so.
--
Terry Pratchett
Catja Pafort
> As for whether the misunderstanding adds anything to G!G!, I don't
> think it needs to. The humor is in the reference; the Gollum works in
> Witches Abroad because it's essentially a cameo -- not because of it's
> (his?) cautionary tale of the corruption of power.
There's a gollum in WA? So *that's* where the slimy little bugger
escaped to...
Catja
aka PerditaX
Lesley Weston
Can't people stop these ridiculous implications of plagiarism? First it was
Harry Potter, now it's Hithchiker's Guide. You people are going to create a
situation where Mr. Pratchett will find that writing his entirely original
satires is not enough fun to be worth the distress caused by these
nonsensical accusations. Then you'll have nothing to read, and serve you
right. But the rest of us will have nothing to read either, and that's not
fair.
Lesley Weston.
David Deephanphongs
>
> No connection was intended; if fact, I've tended to try to keep away
> from anything that might be associated with HHGTTG. You may, of
> course, see a reference if you wish to do so.
Well, that's as definitive as you can get...
Thanks!
Dave
--
Dhblah sidled closer. This was not hard. Dhblah sidled everywhere. *Crabs*
thought he walked sideways.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
Graycat
<les...@vancouverbc.net> wrote:
>Can't people stop these ridiculous implications of plagiarism? First it was
>Harry Potter, now it's Hithchiker's Guide. You people are going to create a
>situation where Mr. Pratchett will find that writing his entirely original
>satires is not enough fun to be worth the distress caused by these
>nonsensical accusations. Then you'll have nothing to read, and serve you
>right. But the rest of us will have nothing to read either, and that's not
>fair.
I don't think there was any mention of plagiarism here at all. A part
of the fun of the discworld books is that they satirice and make fun
of things in this world or other literary worlds. Especially fantasy
conventions and common misconceptions thereof. The whole blasted thing
with idiot HP fans has made the situation so jittery that we aren't
even allowed to mention and appreciate one of the things that make the
DW books good. I think that's ridiculous.
First of all, none of us (afpers) doubt (I don't think anyway) that
Pterry can and does (_only_) write original stories that are all his
own (GO excepted fro obvious reasons).
Secondly, it is clear that he has made references to real world things
and literary things in the past.
Thirdly, saying that something reminds you of something else is not an
accusation of plagiarism. I see, hear and read things that remind me
of other things all the time, it's very natural. There are people in
the DW books that remind me of my friends. Pterry has probably never
met my friends, so they are not the reason why these people are in the
books, but that doesn't stop the similarity from existing. It exists
because Pterry is good at writing people.
If someone says that "hey, I wonder if this thing was inspired by that
thing" and you disagree, say "I doubt it" or "paralell evolution
happens" or "It's a common literary device" or something else that's
apropriate to the situation. Don't jump all over them accusing them of
accusing Pterry of plagiarism. I don't think any of us wishes afp or
abp to have an atmosphere were you can't post an annotation, thought
or general inquiry, for fear of being torn to shreds. Obviously it
helps to check that the thing that you think is being annotated was
actually around before the supposed annotation was made, and that it
was well known enough for it to be likely. And obviously accusing
Pterry of plagiarism is not ok. That doesn't mean that annotations
can't happen.
Referencing something isn't copying it. Making a joke about something
isn't copying it. Satirising something isn't copying it. And if you
aren't copying it you aren't plagiarising it.
Elin
David Deephanphongs
> David wrote:
>
> There's a gollum in WA? So *that's* where the slimy little bugger
> escaped to...
>
Super
mild
spoiler
for
(probably)
Witches Abroad
I /think/ so.. It's in one of the witch books, at least...
Their broomsticks run out of juice, and they stop at a dwarven city
to have them repaired.
The witches end up on a boat, floating out of the mountain, when the
Gollum pops up, says, "My precciousss..." and gets hit in the head by
one of the witches.
This is all from recollection, but that should point out where it is,
at least.
Dave
--
There are many rhymes about magpies, but none of them is very reliable
because they are not the ones the magpies know themselves.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum)
Diane L.
Lesley Weston <les...@vancouverbc.net> wrote in message
news:B9166483.158E6%les...@vancouverbc.net...
> in article SrtBaLAY...@unseen.demon.co.uk, Terry Pratchett at
> Te...@unseen.demon.co.uk wrote on 26/05/2002 7:32 AM:
>
> > In article <3cf0a226$1...@nopics.sjc>, David Deephanphongs
> > <dee...@NOSPAM.telocity.net> writes
> >>
> >> WTF?? You can't reference something without being a thief?
> >
> > No connection was intended; if fact, I've tended to try to keep away
> > from anything that might be associated with HHGTTG. You may, of
> > course, see a reference if you wish to do so.
>
>
> Can't people stop these ridiculous implications of plagiarism?
>
What implications of plagiarism?
David suggested a reference to HHGTTG, not a ripoff or a "you
stole that from...", just a reference. It has been established that
no reference was intended (by the only person qualified to say
so), and that's the end of it. Look, I get just as annoyed as the
next person [1] by the idiots who think "Star Trek" or "Harry Potter"
must be the source of everything, but that's no excuse for jumping
on someone who *didn't* say that, and in fact made his point in
a polite and reasonable way.
Sometimes Terry does reference other writers - surely we can
point out that the three gloomy sisters in their cherry orchard in
T5E were references to an earlier writer without accusing him of
plagiarising Chekhov?
Diane L.
[1] Unless the next person is Terry, obviously.
David Deephanphongs
On Sun, 26 May 2002 11:02:41 +0100, Diane L. wrote:
<snip>
>
> Might I suggest that you take a deep breath and read the above quote again?
> I see no mention of stealing, or of the dreaded "p" word, just a suggestion
> that Terry was refering to a joke by another author and taking it a little
> further. I know we get stupid people every now and then who can't believe
> that a successful author can have an original thought, but that doesn't
> mean that every would be annotator is one of them.
>
Thank you.
Before people come to the defense of PTerry's hono(u)r, they should at least
check to make sure it /needs/ defense. And it didn't. If I wanted to say
that PTerry was ripping someone off, I would do so. Not that I think he
ever has. (sheesh).
> FWIW, David, I don't think the connection is obvious enough to stand as
> an annotation (without confirmation from the man himself, anyway). To
> me, it was just a reference to the oft quoted "fact" about London's water
> (i.e. that it has passed through seven other people before it gets to you).
>
Pehaps it's a UK or European thing -- I've seen that 'fact' before, but it's
uncommon enough that I thought one might be a reference to the other.
But word from On High says it's not, so the point's moot, really.
Dave
--
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home.
William Black
Lesley Weston <les...@vancouverbc.net> wrote in message
news:B9166483.158E6%les...@vancouverbc.net...
> Can't people stop these ridiculous implications of plagiarism? First it
was
> Harry Potter, now it's Hithchiker's Guide. You people are going to create
a
> situation where Mr. Pratchett will find that writing his entirely original
> satires is not enough fun to be worth the distress caused by these
> nonsensical accusations. Then you'll have nothing to read, and serve you
> right. But the rest of us will have nothing to read either, and that's not
> fair.
Lets be honest.
Lots of Diskworld characters are aspects of both characters and real people.
Some are stereotypical, like the similarity between Susan and William
Gibson's Molly. They are both strong female characters who are also, for
want of a better term 'goodies' and so have certain aspects in common so as
to be acceptable to a modern audience.
Some are generalisations. Anyone live in the UK and not met someone like
all or any of the witches or academics like the staff at UU at some time?
Some are straight lifts from ancient, biblical and classical literature,
such as Death and the other horsemen, not to mention various Ephebaen <sp>
philosophers.
Some are from modern TV and film, like The History Monks, there are even
jokes that need the reader to be aware of specific TV shows like 'Kung Fu'.
The reason the books are entertaining is because they exist here and now and
not in some far away place, you already know most of these people,
assuming you're awake...
And I also doubt Mr Pratchett will cease writing because of a bit of
criticism from Usenet, you should have read what Private Eye said about him
a couple of years ago.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Margaret
wrote:
> On Sun, 26 May 2002 17:56:04 +0100, Catja Pafort wrote:
> > David wrote:
> >
> > There's a gollum in WA? So *that's* where the slimy little bugger
> > escaped to...
> >
>
> Super
>
>
>
> mild
>
>
>
>
> spoiler
>
>
>
>
> for
>
>
>
> (probably)
>
>
>
>
> Witches Abroad
>
>
>
>
> I /think/ so.. It's in one of the witch books, at least...
> Their broomsticks run out of juice, and they stop at a dwarven city
> to have them repaired.
>
> The witches end up on a boat, floating out of the mountain, when the
> Gollum pops up, says, "My precciousss..." and gets hit in the head by
> one of the witches.
>
> This is all from recollection, but that should point out where it is,
> at least.
You got everything right but the details. It's on p
59-60 of the UKpb. They were lost and benighted in 'a
maze of twisty little canyons, all alike' (p48) and
snow was coming on, but their broomsticks were all
still functional. And when Gollum approched them, he
said 'ullo, it'sss my birthday'. After a
contemplative few moments, Granny hit him with an oar.
Margaret
--
Never cry over spilt milk, it only makes it salty for the cat.
gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis
On Sun, 26 May 2002 15:32:56 +0100, Terry Pratchett
<Te...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Adams proposes horrible thing: Being drunk, from the water's perspective.
>>Pratchett says, "Hey, that's only the start of the problem."
>
>No connection was intended; if fact, I've tended to try to keep away
>from anything that might be associated with HHGTTG. You may, of
>course, see a reference if you wish to do so.
Hmm, now you've pulled the rug out from one of my favorite (presumed)
annotations
In Pyramids, talking about intelligent animals (ie camels and
dolphins), you wrote "Never trust a species that smiles all the time,
it's up to something", which I always thought was a wonderful spoof of
the dolphins actions in So Long and Thanks for All the Fish :-(
Oh well, c'est lavvy.
Cheers,
Graham.
gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis
On 26 May 2002 11:01:18 -0700, David Deephanphongs
<dee...@NOSPAM.telocity.net> wrote:
[WA Spoiler]
>Super
>
>
>
>mild
>
>
>
>
>spoiler
>
>
>
>
>for
>
>
>
>(probably)
>
>
>
>
>Witches Abroad
>
>
>
>
>I /think/ so.. It's in one of the witch books, at least...
Yes, it's in Witches Abroad.
>The witches end up on a boat, floating out of the mountain, when the
>Gollum pops up, says, "My precciousss..." and gets hit in the head by
>one of the witches.
Actually they're leaving the dwarven city in a boat when this
creature, paddling on a log, comes up behind them and says "it's my
birthday", and Granny picks up an oar and belts it over the head.
Cheers,
Graham.
bottlebleu
[snip]
> If you get enough good humourous writers to tell jokes for long
> enough, the effect will be comparable to the million monkeys
> with typewriters.
Then again, as someone pointed out once, the theory that a million
monkeys with typwrieters would eventually come up with something as
profound as 'Hamlet' sounded quite plausible once upon a time.
Then Usenet was invented....
nyra
>
> "Ash" <ashl...@bridgesm1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<acqtsr$5e3$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>...
> [snip]
>
> > If you get enough good humourous writers to tell jokes for long
> > enough, the effect will be comparable to the million monkeys
> > with typewriters.
What? Scrap metal and ink stains?
>
> Then again, as someone pointed out once, the theory that a million
> monkeys with typwrieters would eventually come up with something as
> profound as 'Hamlet' sounded quite plausible once upon a time.
> Then Usenet was invented....
But _people_ writing stuff will not stray far from their actual
level of command of a language. In order to get something on the
level of Shakespeare on Usenet, you'd need a person comparable to
Shakespeare composing Usenet posts with all the dedication
Shakespeare put to his works. If this ever happened, it would be a
horrible waste of mental capacities, on a medium as ephemeral as
Usenet.
Lesley Weston
I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear, at least an awful lot of people seem
to have missed the point of what I wrote. If you look at Mr. Pratchett's
reply to the original poster, you might get the impression, as I did, that
he could see an accusation there. While he is well able to take of himself
and does not need me to defend him, I saw no reason not to express my
opinion. If you also read my previous post, you will see that I use the word
"satire". Of course he makes reference to other works; it would be difficult
to satirise them without referencing them.
Lesley Weston.
Terry Pratchett
<les...@vancouverbc.net> writes
>
>I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear, at least an awful lot of people seem
>to have missed the point of what I wrote. If you look at Mr. Pratchett's
>reply to the original poster, you might get the impression, as I did, that
>he could see an accusation there.
Huh? I posted:
>No connection was intended; if fact, I've tended to try to keep away
from >anything that might be associated with HHGTTG. You may, of
course, >see a reference if you wish to do so.
That's no accusation. If there is anything there, it's a certain...
terseness at the fact that it's a rather wishful link based on two
authors using the word drunk, in different ways. It's a fact, we both
did. I can't argue with that. I *don't* consider the suggestion was an
allegation of plagiarism, and I don't believe that was intended, either.
Elsewhere in HHGTTG, DNA uses a quote that starts 'Space is big, really
big...'. And somewhere in a DW book there is a quote on the lines of
"Space isn't big, it's a place to be big *in.*' A reference? Up to
you. Or it could just be two people looking at space in a different
way.
--
Terry Pratchett
Lesley Weston
Obviously, I missed the point of what you wrote. Sorry.
Lesley Weston.
gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukdeletethis
On Sun, 26 May 2002 18:54:02 +0100, "Diane L."
<di...@lindquist.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>Sometimes Terry does reference other writers - surely we can
>point out that the three gloomy sisters in their cherry orchard in
>T5E were references to an earlier writer without accusing him of
>plagiarising Chekhov?
Whilst I've heard of Chekhov [1] until now I had no idea what the
"three gloomy sisters" actually referred to, so any annotation should
at least name him rather than just saying "an earlier writer"
otherwise it doesn't help you to search further if interested.
Cheers,
Graham.
[1] Anton, not Pavel !!