Translating names into other languages
The Death of Mayflies
know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
translation... :-)
What I was wondering now is whether the translators have left names
untouched, generally speaking, or if they have tried to capture their
essence, as it were. In Swedish, "Magrat" could be made into
"Margaråtta", or "Margaratte" in German, but I don't know if this is
how they have done it. Does anyone else?
--
Chris, the Death of Mayflies
Graycat
Mayflies) wrote:
Magrat is Viväcka Vitlöök in Swedish, meaning Vi-wake Garliic - sort
of :o) Viveka is a name, and vitlök means garlic.
Nanny Ogg is Nanna Ogg. Greebo is Gråbo, which means mugwort but
sounds very similiar. Granny Weatherwax is Mormor Vädervax whch is
literal.
The artisan names (smith, carpenter etc) are iirc translated literally
too.
Rincewind is Rensvind (cleen/weed/sort out-wind), Twoflower is
Tvåblomster (literal) I think.
Carrot is Morot (literal).
I've actually only read the witch books in Swedish, so I don't know
any others.
--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/index.html
From adress valid, but rarely checked. Use Reply-To to contact me
PeterH
There's a bit in the first Discworld Companion (not sure about the
newer one) about translating the books, although IIRC it concentrates
on the Dutch translations.
"Granny Weatherwax" is apparently translated into Dutch as "Opoe
Wedersmeer" and the explanation for this as given in the DC is
satisfyingly intricate, intriguing and intelligible to even the most
ardent monolinguist. *Effort* went into that translation.
In the German translations that I've seen, names are usually left
alone or given literal translations ... in Reaper Man (Alles Sense!)
Bill Door becomes Bill Tuer, Miss Flitworth becomes Frau Flinkwert
(and loses some effect in the process: she can thus only chastise Bill
Door asking if she had a son by saying: "People call me Mrs but I
never married").
Can't quite remember what was done to "Magrat" in German, but I have a
sneaking suspicion that it was left alone.
..PeterH
Martin Instinsky
>
> Can't quite remember what was done to "Magrat" in German, but I have a
> sneaking suspicion that it was left alone.
Exactly (now it pays off to have bought my first DW-Book in german - never
done that since, it's just to sad what happens with puns, jokes an names...
--
Wenn du sie nicht überzeugen kannst - verwirre sie! (irisches? Sprichwort)
JD
> Those of you who have followed the thread "Translating the Master"
> know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
> translation... :-)
Ok, let's do French again ;-)
On a general POV, the names were translated when there was something
to translate.
The Witches :
Magrat Goussedail (id + literal)
Nounou/Gytha Ogg (I suppose "Nounou" is the same as "Nanny").
Mémé/Esméralda Ciredutemps (literal translation)
Agnès/Perdita X. Crettine (from "crétin(e)", meaning "dumb", "idiot")
The Watch ("le Guet")
/Capitaine/ then /Commissaire divisionnaire/ Samuel Vimaire
"Commissaire Divisionnaire" was the maximum rank for a police officer
in French Noir litterature & cinema, "Vimaire" is a French-sounding
form of "Vimes".
/Agent/ then /Caporal/ then /Capitaine/ Carotte Fondeurenferson
"Fondeur en (?) fer" means "Iron founder", even if "en" does not sound
right.
/Sergent/ Côlon
Note that the " piece of intestine" interpretation was made.
/Caporal/ (Cecil W. St J.) Chicque, aka "Chicard"
"chic" is a slang equivalent to "nobby", "Chicard" being the
substantived version in process typical of French slang.
/Agent/ then /Sergent/ Angua von Überwald (no changes)
Damn, I can't remember either Cheery or Visit, but they were litteral
translations IIRC.
Also, Vetinari is Veterini ("vétérinaire" = vet).
The Wizards :
All literally translated.
the Senior Wrangler = "le major de promo"
This is the name given to the best ranked at the end of the cursus of
a French "école d'ingénieur", a "promo(tion)" being the whole of the
students finishing one of these school on a given year ; they are
named by year, or, in ancient schools, by the name of a famous French
guy (perhaps one having passed this school).
the Dean = "le doyen" (ie the senior teacher in a given university)
Mustrum Ridcully = "Mustrum Ridculle" (a little more French-sounding)
Rincewind = "Rincevent" (literal translation)
Ponder Stibbons = "Cogite Stibon"
"cogiter" is slang for "to think" (probably from "Cogito ergo sum")
Dunno for the spelling changes in the last name, but it feels a little
like some "Chti" (a type of French slang spoken in the North of
France, akin to "wallon"), and would then mean something like "this
good/wise (guy)" ; I may be totally wrong of course, since I'm no
expert in this *g*
Oh, and Twoflower is "Deuxfleurs" (litteral translation, with the
plural twist)
Death & Co :
Death is constantly refered as "la Mort", with a footnote at the start
of the first dozen of novels to explain that yes, he is male.
the Death of Rats is "la Mort aux Rats", which is both a kinda literal
translation and the name of some powder used to kill rats.
Susan is "Suzanne Sto Helit", with only the slight adaptation of her
first name
Mort is always refered as "Morty" to avoid confusion ;-)
No changes for Albert.
And finally, a clever trick in "le Père Porcher" (H) :
Teatime is renamed "Lheureduthé", which obviously reads as "the time
of tea" but can be said the same as "Le redouté" ("the feared one"),
as a foreign-sounding name.
I think you can now understand why I really like this translator, he
never ceases to amaze me ;-)
JD
Richard Eney
Martin Instinsky <ket...@gmx.de> wrote:
>On 12 Nov 2003 05:19:56 -0800, PeterH <pete...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Can't quite remember what was done to "Magrat" in German, but I have a
>> sneaking suspicion that it was left alone.
>
>Exactly (now it pays off to have bought my first DW-Book in german - never
>done that since, it's just to sad what happens with puns, jokes an names...
It's sad what happens with the American 'translation' too. One rather
nice joke was left out of ToT, for no discernable reason except the
editor was being stupid as well as ignorant.
For those who want to know:
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
V
When the Abbot offers Lu Tze a rusk, Lu Tze politely refuses;
in the US edition, he says "I've eaten",
in the UK edition, he says "I have enough teeth."
The implication, I believe, is that rusks _cause_ teething.
=Tamar
Urquharts
Indeed. It's one of the reasons why I pay the extra money to
Amazon.co.uk, and buy the UK edition, even though I live in the U.S.
I still remember the cricket team in Lords and Ladies. :)
I must admit, though, that some of the jokes rely on a 'shared
experience' that can mean nothing to those brought up in Forn Parts
(especially English-speaking Forn parts). There was a good example in
MR, but I've looked all over the house and I can't find the book, so
I'll scrabble around for another example.
Oh yes - the morris-dancing references in L&L, or the Richmal Crompton
stuff in Good Omens.
'Two countries, divided by a single language'
Wossname. Him, smoked a cigar,
name's on the tip of my tongue....
Regards
Doug Urquhart
Steffen
> On 12 Nov 2003 05:19:56 -0800, PeterH <pete...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Can't quite remember what was done to "Magrat" in German, but I have a
> > sneaking suspicion that it was left alone.
>
> Exactly (now it pays off to have bought my first DW-Book in german - never
> done that since, it's just to sad what happens with puns, jokes an names...
trilogy stating that the translator was unable to translate a pun (the
thing with the GNU). Names are usually translated literally as are
most book titles and if they are note translated literally I do not
understand the advantage of the alternative.
Keith Edgerley
"JD" <jhi...@tiscali.fr> a écrit dans le message de
news:a73405b0.03111...@posting.google.com...
> chri...@hotmail.com (The Death of Mayflies) wrote in message
news:<8bb65e0d.03111...@posting.google.com>...
> > Those of you who have followed the thread "Translating the Master"
> > know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
> > translation... :-)
>
> Ok, let's do French again ;-)
>
> On a general POV, the names were translated when there was something
> to translate.
>
> The Witches :
> Magrat Goussedail (id + literal)
> Nounou/Gytha Ogg (I suppose "Nounou" is the same as "Nanny").
I think this is the only mistake Patrick Couton has ever made. Although
nounou does in fact mean nanny, it means nanny in the sense of a children's
nurse; here Nanny, a diminutive of Nan, is a child's word for grandmother.
This is a reference to her considerable progeny. Nanny Ogg is a matriarch.
> I think you can now understand why I really like this translator, he
> never ceases to amaze me ;-)
He has won at least one prize for his translations of Discworld novels.
--
Keith Edgerley
Is it not strange that sheeps' guts should hale souls out
of men's bodies?
Steve James
I find the whole thing about changing people's names very difficult [1].
My name is Steve in any language I am NOT Stephen, Stefan,
Etian or even SuTeBeN.
I don't translate other peoples names in to English, why should
anyone else. I would not walk up to Mr Yamaha and welcome him
as Mountain Teeth.
I would be interested to discover how Bilbo, Gandalf, Gollum and Sauron
have had their names changed in other languages.
Steve (Steeljam) *BF DAcFD (UU) *
Resident Opsimath in Redivivus Studies
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>From: stee...@cix.co.uk (Steve James)
>Date: 15/11/03 23:17 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <memo.20031115...@steeljam.compulink.co.uk>
>
>In article <8bb65e0d.03111...@posting.google.com>,
>chri...@hotmail.com (The Death of Mayflies) wrote:
>
>> Those of you who have followed the thread "Translating the Master"
>> know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
>> translation... :-)
>>
>> What I was wondering now is whether the translators have left names
>> untouched, generally speaking, or if they have tried to capture their
>> essence, as it were. In Swedish, "Magrat" could be made into
>> "Margaråtta", or "Margaratte" in German, but I don't know if this is
>> how they have done it. Does anyone else?
>>
>I find the whole thing about changing people's names very difficult [1].
> My name is Steve in any language I am NOT Stephen, Stefan,
> Etian or even SuTeBeN.
>I don't translate other peoples names in to English, why should
>anyone else. I would not walk up to Mr Yamaha and welcome him
>as Mountain Teeth.
Yeah, but the point is many Discworld names *mean* something, or contain jokes.
If you don't speak English and read a translated Discworld book with the names
unchanged, you'd be missing out on a lot of it. Just like if the translators of
Asterix left the names in French.
>I would be interested to discover how Bilbo, Gandalf, Gollum and Sauron
>have had their names changed in other languages.
Well, of course, in the original Westron Bilbo was Bilba. Gandalf and Sauron
I'm not sure about (I think Tolkien left them alone) but Smeagol (Gollum isn't
really a name, and is onomatopoeic) was really called Trahald. There's lots
more of this stuff in Appendix F, and presumably those translating into other
modern languages would have taken the eminent philologist's comments on board
and translated the names accordingly. Or not.
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Master Frodo, the power of the Ring 'as turned me into Pam Ayres!"
Richard Eney
> dic...@radix.net (Richard Eney) wrote:
>>Martin Instinsky <ket...@gmx.de> wrote:
Me too. I buy the US edition because I'm impatient and then I get the
UK edition when I get a chance.
>I must admit, though, that some of the jokes rely on a 'shared
>experience' that can mean nothing to those brought up in Forn Parts
>(especially English-speaking Forn parts). There was a good example in
>MR, but I've looked all over the house and I can't find the book, so
>I'll scrabble around for another example.
>
>Oh yes - the morris-dancing references in L&L, or the Richmal Crompton
>stuff in Good Omens.
But at least with those we got the chance to be baffled. With
ToT we didn't even get the chance to try, and it's not as though
rusks were unheard-of in the US, depite the obvious and reported
ignorance of the editor. I knew about them and I grew up in the US
in the third quarter of the twentieth century.
=Tamar
Jetro de Château
In the LotR translations I've seen the names that *mean* something
(other than the fact that most names have a meaning) are translated and
the results are often disappointing. Translation of names, puns, jokes
or poetry requires for the translator to be an artist (writer) himself,
and means he/she should have some licence to change certain things to
fit in with what could be understood in the language translated to.
It's like translating a sitcom into any other language and therefore
culture. You need the change the names of the politicians or other
afmous people you're making a joke about in order for the public to be
able to understand the meaning of the joke. You need to find some sort
of equivalent to get the same meaning across.
Jetro
Graycat
Urquharts
wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:14:50 GMT, loch...@optonline.net (Urquharts)
>wrote:
>>Indeed. It's one of the reasons why I pay the extra money to
>>Amazon.co.uk, and buy the UK edition, even though I live in the U.S.
>>I still remember the cricket team in Lords and Ladies. :)
>
>Cricket team?
>
I can't find the book in question, but here goes from memory.
It was back in the days when the U.S. editions were published by Roc.
They had blurbs at the end of the book, describing other works by the
same author. Whoever wrote the blurb for Lords and Ladies had skimmed
the book, noticed that the 'rude mechanicals' were dressed in white
and made the unwarranted assumption that they were a cricket team. I
think the term 'zany' was used (or possibly 'wacky'), but I could be
wrong.
The blurb for 'The Colour of Magic' described Death as a 'dragon
lady', which can't have pleased him very much.
The covers were a tad strange, too. I'd say 'Witches Abroad' was the
worst, with Grannie Weatherwax wearing trousers, Magrat with green
hair (and a rather un-Magrat cleavage) and Greebo depicted as a full
sized panther.
It was as if the publishers understood the words, but not what they
meant when combined together.
Regards
Doug Urquhart
Graycat
wrote:
>The blurb for 'The Colour of Magic' described Death as a 'dragon
>lady', which can't have pleased him very much.
>
>The covers were a tad strange, too. I'd say 'Witches Abroad' was the
>worst, with Grannie Weatherwax wearing trousers, Magrat with green
>hair (and a rather un-Magrat cleavage) and Greebo depicted as a full
>sized panther.
>
>It was as if the publishers understood the words, but not what they
>meant when combined together.
How very...strange. If anyone wrote a book about it, everyone would
probably thnk it too unlikely to be believed...
Mike Stevens
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:21:55 +0100, Graycat <gra...@passagen.se>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:14:50 GMT, loch...@optonline.net (Urquharts)
>> wrote:
>
>>> Indeed. It's one of the reasons why I pay the extra money to
>>> Amazon.co.uk, and buy the UK edition, even though I live in the U.S.
>>> I still remember the cricket team in Lords and Ladies. :)
>>
>> Cricket team?
>>
>
> I can't find the book in question, but here goes from memory.
>
> It was back in the days when the U.S. editions were published by Roc.
>
> They had blurbs at the end of the book, describing other works by the
> same author. Whoever wrote the blurb for Lords and Ladies had skimmed
> the book, noticed that the 'rude mechanicals' were dressed in white
> and made the unwarranted assumption that they were a cricket team. I
> think the term 'zany' was used (or possibly 'wacky'), but I could be
> wrong.
That's an excusable confusion IMO. The reason why a number of Morris
sides wear white dates back to the early years of the Morris Dance
revival, in the early years of the twentieth century. The first Morris
tradition to come to wider attention was that of the Cotswolds, and
Cecil Sharpe recruited quite a few of his revivalist dancers from Oxford
University. There was some question as to what they should wear for the
dances, and they decided to wear cricket whites (which most of them
would have owned already) with the addition of various decorative
elements with varying degrees of "traditional" authenticity.
--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island. So is Man.
JD
memo.20031115...@steeljam.compulink.co.uk...
> I would be interested to discover how Bilbo, Gandalf, Gollum and
> Sauron have had their names changed in other languages.
In the often-questionned French translation of LotR, there were two main
rules for translating names :
- the "normal" names were left unchanged,
- anything having a meaning in English got translated. Hence some rather
strange things like "Samsagace" and some rather good ideas like the
"Sacquet"/"Soucolline" alliterations. Most, like "Grima langue-de-serpent",
work rather well in a clichéd Middle-age way.
Only exception : we have "Bilbon" and "Frodon". I was told that this is
typical of how old English names were translated in old French.
The most confusing part being that all this is inconsistant with the
translation of "Bilbo le Hobbit", who stars good old "Bilbo Baggins".
JD
Richard Bos
> Urquharts <loch...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > It was back in the days when the U.S. editions were published by Roc.
> >
> > They had blurbs at the end of the book, describing other works by the
> > same author. Whoever wrote the blurb for Lords and Ladies had skimmed
> > the book, noticed that the 'rude mechanicals' were dressed in white
> > and made the unwarranted assumption that they were a cricket team. I
> > think the term 'zany' was used (or possibly 'wacky'), but I could be
> > wrong.
>
> That's an excusable confusion IMO. The reason why a number of Morris
> sides wear white dates back to the early years of the Morris Dance
> revival, in the early years of the twentieth century.
> There was some question as to what they should wear for the
> dances, and they decided to wear cricket whites
That would've excuse a poor lost Merkin who came across a Morris group
on an outing in the real world, but it has absolutely nothing to do with
the actual text of L&L. In the book, no mention of cricket whites was
made at all. Just white clothing. It simply proves that the blurb
"writer" hadn't read the book at all, and just wrote down the first
thing that crossed its poor, confused mind.
Richard
Shalom Septimus
(Steve James) wrote:
>I don't translate other peoples names in to English, why should
>anyone else. I would not walk up to Mr Yamaha and welcome him
>as Mountain Teeth.
You're not Babelfish, then. (http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/)
I once tried to feed that page a website on the Japanese TV series
"Urusei Yatsura", and it failed hilariously, because one of the problems
with that service is that it does, in fact, translate Japanese names
literally. You wind up with characters named things like "It hits", "To
endure", and so forth.
--
Shalom
grahamafforda...@hotmail.com
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 23:55:22 -0500, Shalom Septimus
<drug...@p0b0x.c0m> wrote:
>I once tried to feed that page a website on the Japanese TV series
>"Urusei Yatsura", and it failed hilariously, because one of the problems
>with that service is that it does, in fact, translate Japanese names
>literally. You wind up with characters named things like "It hits", "To
>endure", and so forth.
And Peace be Unto You, Seventh Son...!
Cheers,
Graham.
Christina Waldeck
>
> In article <8bb65e0d.03111...@posting.google.com>, chri...@hotmail.com (The Death of Mayflies) wrote:
>
> > Those of you who have followed the thread "Translating the Master"
> > know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
> > translation... :-)
> >
> > What I was wondering now is whether the translators have left names
> > untouched, generally speaking, or if they have tried to capture their
> > essence, as it were. In Swedish, "Magrat" could be made into
> > "Margaråtta", or "Margaratte" in German, but I don't know if this is
> > how they have done it. Does anyone else?
The German translators of the Discworld novels unfortunately translate
*every* name that is even remotely a "talking name". Although I must
admit, I only read the first few novels of the DW line in German, and
as soon as it became possible to buy them in bookshops in the English
original (without having to order them directly from the UK) - roughly
in the 1990s - I did the switch and have never even touched a German
version of DW since then.
In the beginning, books by Pratchett (DW, DSotS, etc) were clearly
marketed here in Germany as Fantasy literature, and worse, so I felt,
as "funny/parody" Fantasy for children and geeks. That was certainly
due in part to the "crazy" cover art, but also probably because the
first few novels (esp the Rincewind books up to Sourcery) WERE
parodies of fantasy cliches, and thus were grouped into the same
category as Tom Holt, Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, and Douglas Adams'
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy[1], with which they were often
compared.
And because DW was supposed to be "ahahaha funny", the names were
relentlessly translated, especially the surnames. On the other hand,
they left the first names mostly as they were, as far as I know, not
much Germanisation there.
So Cpt. Samuel Vimes became "Hauptmann Samuel Mumm" (Mumm being an
outdated German word for bravery), Sergeant Fred Colon became
"Feldwebel Fred Doppelpunkt" (thankfully selecting the meaning of
"colon" that has to do with punctuation, not with internal anatomy),
Carot became "Karotte", the witch Magrat Garlick became "Margaret
Knoblauch", and Granny Esme(ralda) Weatherwax became "Oma Esme(ralda)
Wetterwachs".
Mort still stayed Mort, and the patrician Havelock Vetinari stayed
being called Vetinari, if I remember right. Don't remember how they
translated Nobby's name.
But as I said, it's been a few years, and simply I couldn't stand the
damn translations[2], which tended to simply leave out any puns they
couldnt adequately translate, or they translated them literally which
led to some dialogues falling flat.
I admit I'm torn on the topic of translating "talking names" into
other languages. If they are clearly _meant_ to mean what they say,
well, alright. Nothing worse than having all those characters in i.e.
roleplaying games srt on i.e. D&D worlds which are clearly
fantasy-pseudo-medieval, and then having dwarves and elves running
around actually being *named* So-and-so Stonehammer or Alyryon
Starbreeze, as if the elves spoke frelling English!
But for DW, I often don't *want* the names translated, because then
they sound... silly. Yes, if I were a native English speaker, I'd
probably found someone named "Colon" just as silly in the beginning.
On the other hand, there are many old family names, in all European
languages, that used to be talking names. I mean, my mother's maiden
name was "Stoffregen" which could be translated to "cloth rain", and
an old-established family in the little town I grow up in is called
"Wucherpfennig" which could be roughly translated to "someone who is
guilty of usury with pennies/money"[3]. Yeah, their ancestor must've
been really popular... ;-)
But to make a long point short, to me such names after a while cease
to be words with a specific meaning and simply become *names*. And you
don't translate surnames which are not nicknames. What Steve said
below...
> I don't translate other peoples names in to English, why should
> anyone else. I would not walk up to Mr Yamaha and welcome him
> as Mountain Teeth.
> I would be interested to discover how Bilbo, Gandalf, Gollum and Sauron
> have had their names changed in other languages.
>
> Steve (Steeljam) *BF DAcFD (UU) *
There exists a brilliant, poetic, wonderful German translation of the
Lord of the Rings[4] that is roughly 30 years old by now, done by a
female translator, Margaret Carroux. It was thankfully used as the
basis of the German dubbing for the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy.
Mdm Carroux had carefully worked to preserve the poetic feel of
Tolkien's language and his use of old-fashioned words and Old English,
and bring it into the German translation, by digging up suitable
archaic German words but still keeping it readable to modern readers
(or at least anyone with a vocabulary of more than 500 words).
There were no chances to the names of main characters. Bilbo, Gandalf,
Sauron, Boromir etc all stayed as they are, only names like Arwen
Evenstar ("Arwen Abendstern") and the names of the Ents were
translated literally. Probably because all the names of the dwarves
from The Hobbit as well as the name Gandalf stem from the Norse Edda
anyway. Samwise adressing Frodo as Mr. Frodo or people addressing
Elrond as Lord Elrond was translated by putting the title "Herr" in
front of many male characters' names, and "Dame" in front of
high-ranking females like i.e. Galadriel. It is true that "Herr" is
still used in modern German for adressing for example business
associates, as it indicates a certain polite distance and a certain
rank, but the way it was used in the Rings setting felt far more
archaic, similar to the Italian titles "Ser" and "Messer".
And in at least one instance, the German translation actually improves
upon Tolkien; go ask any German fan of the Rings trilogy :). She
translated The Shire as "das Auenland", loosely re-translatable as
"the county of water meadows", a name which conjures up the image of
clear sweet shallow rivers winding through lush green fields, of sandy
beaches in the river bend where you can have a picnic, of rolling
hills and green and golden sun-lit meadows filled with butterflies and
birds and flowers.
In 2001, the Klett-Cotta publishing house decided for reasons only
known to them that the German market needed a "modernised" translation
of Tolkien's trilogy, "adapted" as they said "to the modern German
speech". (Because, you know, Tolkien's original had been updated to
21st century colloquial English, too. No, it had not? Oh, sorry. Silly
of me.)
Basically they seemed to argue that the Carroux translation was
outdated, what with being 30 years old, and now that "Fantasy" had
become more mainstream with the Harry Potter mania, and the Rings
movies were going to lure in a new generation of readers to buy
Tolkien's Middle Earth books (these "new readers" being both children,
and adults not usually used to reading "fantastic literature"), the
painfully archaic language of the previous translation had to go.
Who'd want to read big fat books full of small print of characters
talking stiltedly and singing ballades? Modern kids surely would want
a more snazzy language, right?
(Yes, it's as horrible as it sounds. I've read excerpts of the new
version. Ack.) Some guy called Wolfgang Krege translated the new
version. Now you have such immortal gems as the hobbits adressing
Gandalf with a hearty "hey, boss!", as well as the whole text
structure and language being geared towards shorter sentences and
words and colloquial dialogue.
On a positive note, this raised such a storm of disgust among fans
that Klett-Cotta was forced to reprint a new edition of the old
Carroux translation along with the new Krege version.
Christina
---
[1] Yes, SF, but still similar
[2] One main reason being that any time a character is talking with an
accent or babbling drunkenly, the translator turned it into the most
ridiculous attempt of German colloquial speech. I don't have the
slightest idea how they translated the Feegles in Wee Free Men. If
people want, I can go to the bookshop and page through the German
version to find out... but if I suffer permanent mental damage from
that, please send donations.
[3] Pfennige (10 of which were called a Groschen) having been the
modern erman equivalent of pennies before we switched to Euro, but in
medieval times Pfennige were a wide-spread currency, long before the
German Mark. At least from what I remember about a radio documentation
I once heard about old German currencies. Don't nail me down on this.
[4] The one for The Hobbit isnt so bad either.
Richard Bos
> And in at least one instance, the German translation actually improves
> upon Tolkien; go ask any German fan of the Rings trilogy :). She
> translated The Shire as "das Auenland", loosely re-translatable as
> "the county of water meadows", a name which conjures up the image of
> clear sweet shallow rivers winding through lush green fields, of sandy
> beaches in the river bend where you can have a picnic, of rolling
> hills and green and golden sun-lit meadows filled with butterflies and
> birds and flowers.
Whereas "The Shire" more or less invokes an image of rural England,
perhaps some centuries ago - and this was intentional. Why would
replacing this setting with a sickly-sweet fairytale scene be an
improvement?
Richard
Graycat
Why would German [1] readers naturally know what rural England was
like some centuries ago? Why not translate the name into something
which fits the impression given in the book of what the shire is like?
It's green, has rolling hills, has meandering rivers, has meadows and
fields, probably features picnics if I know anything about hobbits and
it would be strange if there weren't at least a few insects. The shire
pre-sauruman is idyllic, that's the point.
[1] Or Sweidsh/French/Italian/Chinese/etc
Mike Stevens
> stee...@cix.co.uk (Steve James) wrote in message
> news:memo.20031115...@steeljam.compulink.co.uk...
{talking about publication in Germany]
> In the beginning, books by Pratchett (DW, DSotS, etc) were clearly
> marketed here in Germany as Fantasy literature, and worse, so I felt,
> as "funny/parody" Fantasy for children and geeks. That was certainly
> due in part to the "crazy" cover art, but also probably because the
> first few novels (esp the Rincewind books up to Sourcery) WERE
> parodies of fantasy cliches, and thus were grouped into the same
> category as Tom Holt, Piers Anthony's Xanth novels, and Douglas Adams'
> Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy[1], with which they were often
> compared.
I can't comment on the Piers Anthony stuff as I don't know it (from what
I read here, I probably ought to get it). But the Tom Holt and Douglas
Adams comparisons aren't far out - except that Pratchett and Adams are
each much better than Holt.
> So Cpt. Samuel Vimes became "Hauptmann Samuel Mumm" (Mumm being an
> outdated German word for bravery)
Er, how is that a translation? "Vimes" in English means ...... ?
> There exists a brilliant, poetic, wonderful German translation of the
> Lord of the Rings ....
[snip]
> And in at least one instance, the German translation actually improves
> upon Tolkien; go ask any German fan of the Rings trilogy :). She
> translated The Shire as "das Auenland", loosely re-translatable as
> "the county of water meadows", a name which conjures up the image of
> clear sweet shallow rivers winding through lush green fields, of sandy
> beaches in the river bend where you can have a picnic, of rolling
> hills and green and golden sun-lit meadows filled with butterflies and
> birds and flowers.
But, of course, "the Shire" is fundamentally untranslatable. It is
pre-industrialised Warwickshire.
> In 2001, the Klett-Cotta publishing house decided for reasons only
> known to them that the German market needed a "modernised" translation
> of Tolkien's trilogy, "adapted" as they said "to the modern German
> speech". (Because, you know, Tolkien's original had been updated to
> 21st century colloquial English, too. No, it had not? Oh, sorry. Silly
> of me.)
Tolkien, of course, was deliberately using archaic forms of English to
create the atmosphere he wanted. As were the translators of the
Authorised Version (Merkins please read as "King James Version") of the
Bible and the authors of the 16th & 17th Century (Church of England)
Prayer Books.
bewtifulfreak
> I can't comment on the Piers Anthony stuff as I don't know it (from
> what I read here, I probably ought to get it). But the Tom Holt and
> Douglas Adams comparisons aren't far out - except that Pratchett
> and Adams are each much better than Holt.
I like Holt, but because I'm not as highly educated in mythology and history
and various other things, a lot of his stuff goes over my head. As I've
said before, Pratchett is intelligent without being unintelligable. :)
I like Adams' stuff, too; it's fun, clever, but a bit pragmatic for it to
really grab me like Pratchett's does. Pratchett's has heart. :)
>> So Cpt. Samuel Vimes became "Hauptmann Samuel Mumm" (Mumm being an
>> outdated German word for bravery)
>
> Er, how is that a translation? "Vimes" in English means ...... ?
I know....I agree with the person who said there's no need to translate
names unless there's an inherent joke in the name.
>> In 2001, the Klett-Cotta publishing house decided for reasons only
>> known to them that the German market needed a "modernised"
>> translation of Tolkien's trilogy, "adapted" as they said "to the
>> modern German speech". (Because, you know, Tolkien's original had
>> been updated to 21st century colloquial English, too. No, it had
>> not? Oh, sorry. Silly of me.)
>
> Tolkien, of course, was deliberately using archaic forms of English to
> create the atmosphere he wanted. As were the translators of the
> Authorised Version (Merkins please read as "King James Version") of
> the Bible and the authors of the 16th & 17th Century (Church of
> England) Prayer Books.
Which is why she's right, and a "modernised" version is so abhorant. :\
--
Ann
A California Yankee in Queen Elizabeth's Court
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak
Richard Bos
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 10:08:05 GMT, r...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl (Richard
> Bos) wrote:
>
> >memeh...@web.de (Christina Waldeck) wrote:
> >
> >> And in at least one instance, the German translation actually improves
> >> upon Tolkien; go ask any German fan of the Rings trilogy :). She
> >> translated The Shire as "das Auenland", loosely re-translatable as
> >> "the county of water meadows", a name which conjures up the image of
> >> clear sweet shallow rivers winding through lush green fields, of sandy
> >> beaches in the river bend where you can have a picnic, of rolling
> >> hills and green and golden sun-lit meadows filled with butterflies and
> >> birds and flowers.
> >
> >Whereas "The Shire" more or less invokes an image of rural England,
> >perhaps some centuries ago - and this was intentional. Why would
> >replacing this setting with a sickly-sweet fairytale scene be an
> >improvement?
>
> Why would German [1] readers naturally know what rural England was
> like some centuries ago?
Why would German readers naturally know what a fight between mediaeval-
like armies is like, or life on a flat earth?
> Why not translate the name into something
> which fits the impression given in the book of what the shire is like?
> It's green, has rolling hills, has meandering rivers, has meadows and
> fields, probably features picnics if I know anything about hobbits and
> it would be strange if there weren't at least a few insects. The shire
> pre-sauruman is idyllic, that's the point.
Ah, but it isn't! It's beautiful, and it's pleasant, but it's also
populated by hard workers and well-kept. It's a farmers' country, not a
fairytale land. And "farmers' country" is exactly the image that "Shire"
conjures up in my mind, even though I didn't live in Western England in
1740.
Richard
Graycat
Bos) wrote:
>> Why would German [1] readers naturally know what rural England was
>> like some centuries ago?
Or to phrase it differently, who should there be a word in German that
conjures up rural England some centuries ago? Why should "the shire"
mean that to a German? It doesn't to me.
>Why would German readers naturally know what a fight between mediaeval-
>like armies is like, or life on a flat earth?
That's not the same thing. Germany had medieval times, there were
armies there, in that it is no different from an English person
reading about medieval armies. As far as discworld goes, we don't need
the foreknowledge of what life on a flat planet is like because Pterry
tells us, for hundreds of pages each tme he tells us what it's like.
>> Why not translate the name into something
>> which fits the impression given in the book of what the shire is like?
>> It's green, has rolling hills, has meandering rivers, has meadows and
>> fields, probably features picnics if I know anything about hobbits and
>> it would be strange if there weren't at least a few insects. The shire
>> pre-sauruman is idyllic, that's the point.
>
>Ah, but it isn't! It's beautiful, and it's pleasant, but it's also
>populated by hard workers and well-kept. It's a farmers' country, not a
>fairytale land.
Read the description of hobbits in the beginning. Read the bits about
when Adam was growing up in Good Omens. Read any amount of oldish
adventure books for boys. They are all idyllic in pretty much the same
way. Yes there is work, and workers, and sometimes even the horror of
going to bed early against your will. But mostly it's sunny, and six
meals a day and pipeweed and parties. It is well kept and and
populated by hard workers because Tolkien was a good writer and a real
place like the shire would have all that, because real places do.
However, that doesn't mean it can't be idyllic. People are for the
most part friendly, they aren't concerned with the greater world and
the evils in it, they throw frequent parties and pass presents around
because it makes them happy. They eat because they love eating, they
go to the pub and hang out with their friends, they blow smoke rings.
All quite ordinary things, but it still makes for a pretty idyllic
time. I had some pretty darn idyllic moments this summer, while never
once leaving the real world.
>And "farmers' country" is exactly the image that "Shire"
>conjures up in my mind, even though I didn't live in Western England in
>1740.
Neither did I, and "the Shire" means "that place with the hobbits" to
me, because that was the first place I ever encountered it. In Swedish
it's called "Fylke", which means exactly the same thing to me, because
I had never heard that word either. Wether you think that is good,
bad, horrible or nothng much at all is up to you, of course.
Duke of URL
news:b42usvof4okahpfm1...@4ax.com
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:06:44 GMT, r...@hoekstra-uitgeverij.nl
> (Richard Bos) wrote:
>
>>> Why would German [1] readers naturally know what rural England was
>>> like some centuries ago?
>
> Or to phrase it differently, who should there be a word in German
> that conjures up rural England some centuries ago? Why should "the
> shire" mean that to a German? It doesn't to me.
??? I thought Shire was derived from a Deutsch word. Wrong? Anyone got
its etymology? If it's too long and you think it would bore people
here, please email it to me - I am interested. Don't forget AT=@ DOT=.
Tim Sharrock
>??? I thought Shire was derived from a Deutsch word. Wrong? Anyone got
>its etymology? If it's too long and you think it would bore people
>here, please email it to me - I am interested. Don't forget AT=@ DOT=.
The Oxford English Dictionary suggests that the Old English "scir" relates
to Old High German "scira", and suggests a couple of possible Old Teutonic
roots that require letters not in most fonts, with a possible pre-Teutonic
link to Old Italic. (I am not a philologist, so I may have mis-represented
the details)
Tim
--
Tim Sharrock (t...@sharrock.org.uk)
Duke of URL
news:osgusv0k16nj3mma7...@4ax.com
AhHAH! I was right! Scuze me, gotta go find a red crayon to mark my
calendar...
Duke of URL
By Robin Pearce (a psychologist with time on his hands)
Yesterday I visited a translation website and translated some carols
into other languages, then back into English. The results:
=
Jingleglocken, jingleglocken, jingle completely.
Oh which fun it is to ride into a horse-opened sleigh.
("Jingle Bells," translated into German and then back into English)
=
Ring of sleighbells, are you listening?
In the track the snow is shining.
A beautiful vista, we are tonight happy,
Walking in the country of the wonders of the winter.
("Winter Wonderland," Spanish)
=
Icily Snowman a lucky merry soul
With one was formed from a key corncob,
And the nose and two eyes, those from coal.
("Frosty the Snowman," German)
=
Rudolph the red-nose reindeer has had a nose a lot polishes,
And if you never saw it, you would even say that she emits light.
("Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer," Italian)
=
You would improve the clock towards the outside,
You would improve not the shout,
You would improve not the codfish.
I is saying to him Papa Noel is coming to the city.
("Santa Claus Is Coming to Town," Spanish)
=-=-=-=-=
I would LOVE to see some of this circular translating used in a story
somewhere...
Steveski
> Retranslations Of Translations For The Holidays:
> By Robin Pearce (a psychologist with time on his hands)
[snip]
> I is saying to him Papa Noel is coming to the city.
> ("Santa Claus Is Coming to Town," Spanish)
> =-=-=-=-=
> I would LOVE to see some of this circular translating used in a story
> somewhere...
There used to be a game which used a Japanese mainframe to do this and you
had to guess what the original word was :0
Steveski
--
<<<<< can't be arsed with a sig >>>>>
Sigurd Brattsti Sørensen
wrote:
> Retranslations Of Translations For The Holidays:
Could you post the original texts too, for the benefit of us stupid
non-native english speakers who don't know the text in english yule carols?
--
-Sigurd
Heidrun Kirchweger
wrote:
>However, that doesn't mean it can't be idyllic. People are for the
>most part friendly, they aren't concerned with the greater world and
>the evils in it, they throw frequent parties and pass presents around
>because it makes them happy. They eat because they love eating, they
>go to the pub and hang out with their friends, they blow smoke rings.
>All quite ordinary things, but it still makes for a pretty idyllic
>time. I had some pretty darn idyllic moments this summer, while never
>once leaving the real world.
I don't think there was a place like this anywhere in Europe in the
18th century. There was always some war going on, most of the farmers
weren't free (so called "serfdom" which was nothing other than slavery
was still widely spread and ended only at the end of the 18th century
or even later by reforms), either the wars went over the land, masters
pressed taxes from the people to finance their wars or extravagant
court lifestyles or people had to send (and probably lose) their sons
in a war somewhere. And regions that were so remote that no other
countries were interested in them tended also to be so poor that there
sure was no "going to the pub" or "passing presents" or eating just
for the fun of it for the ordinary people.
Just a little glimpse on what happened in Europe in early to middle
18th century:
Poland: In the Polish war of succession 1733-35 Russian troups force
the election of the Austrian-Russian claimant.
Austria: In spite of the "pragmatic sanction" [1] (Empress Maria
Theresia's [reign 1740-80] father Emperor Karl VI had no son so he
signed treaties with all the important countries to acknowledge the
female succession to the throne) war of succession caused by the
invasion of Silesia by Prussia's Friedrich II. Saxonia and Bavaria
make demands on the throne. This goes on until 1748 and some years
later the next war starts.
France: The "Ancién regime" reigns with absolute power, lavish royal
household, 1720 inflation and national bankruptcy (so you could say
the French revolution starts boiling up).
Prussia: Reign of king Friedrich Wilhelm I who made major reforms but
reigned with absolute power and establishs a military state.
1753-63 The "Seven years-war" with Austria, Russia, France, Great
Britain, Prussia and even Sweden participating goes on mostly in
what's now Poland, eastern Germany and the Czech Republic.
The Brits and the French had their colonial wars in America, so there
was a lot of dying of sons, tax pressing etc. in these countries too.
Of course there were some great improvements in this century like
compulsory school education for all children, end to witch burnings,
freedom or tolerance of religion, end of torture, separation of
powers, draining of swamps, reforms in agriculture (e.g. crop
rotation, the cultivation of potatoes which ended most of the latent
famine in central Europe, the beginning of forestry) and lots more but
still there never was something even nearly resembling the life of the
Shire described by Tolkien. You just have to imagine that people in
some of the most remote places in the Austrian Alps had to literally
sell their kids as labourers to rich farmers in Southern Germany. This
went on until the beginning of the past century so that there are
still some people alive here in one of the richest countries in the
world who had to endure this themselves.
I liked the description of Tolkien's Shire but I never see is as
something real but rather as wishful thinking of country dwellers all
over the world (though I would find it rather boring myself).
[1] This is a direct translation of the German expression, so I hope
I'm not too far away from the exact historic expressions.
Source of the historic data: dtv-Atlas zur Weltgeschichte, Band 1.
--
Frage an Radio Eriwan: Kann ein Troll schwimmen?
Antwort: Im Prinzip ja, er ist ja hohl. Trotzdem wird er
untergehen, weil er nicht ganz dicht ist.
Heidrun Kirchweger
<kirch...@gmx.at> wrote:
>Just a little glimpse on what happened in Europe in early to middle
>18th century:
And I nearly forgot to mention, the last epidemic of the plague rushed
through Europe in 1720/21...
Richard Eney
Sigurd asked for the originals:
>> Retranslations Of Translations For The Holidays:
>> By Robin Pearce (a psychologist with time on his hands)
>> Yesterday I visited a translation website and translated some carols
>> into other languages, then back into English. The results:
>> =
>> Jingleglocken, jingleglocken, jingle completely.
>> Oh which fun it is to ride into a horse-opened sleigh.
>> ("Jingle Bells," translated into German and then back into English)
Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way.
Oh, what fun it is to ride in a one-horse open sleigh.
>> =
>> Ring of sleighbells, are you listening?
>> In the track the snow is shining.
>> A beautiful vista, we are tonight happy,
>> Walking in the country of the wonders of the winter.
>> ("Winter Wonderland," Spanish)
Sleighbells ring, are you listening?
On the way, the snow is glistening.
It's a beautiful sight, we're happy tonight,
Walking in a winter wonderland.
>> =
>> Icily Snowman a lucky merry soul
>> With one was formed from a key corncob,
>> And the nose and two eyes, those from coal.
>> ("Frosty the Snowman," German)
Frosty the Snowman was a jolly, happy soul
With a corncob pipe and a button nose
And two eyes made out of coal
>> =
>> Rudolph the red-nose reindeer has had a nose a lot polishes,
>> And if you never saw it, you would even say that she emits light.
>> ("Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer," Italian)
Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer had a very shiny nose.
And if you ever saw it, you would even say it glows.
>> =
>> You would improve the clock towards the outside,
>> You would improve not the shout,
>> You would improve not the codfish.
>> I is saying to him Papa Noel is coming to the city.
>> ("Santa Claus Is Coming to Town," Spanish)
You'd better watch out, you'd better not cry,
You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Santa Claus is coming to town.
>Could you post the original texts too, for the benefit of us stupid
>non-native english speakers who don't know the text in english yule carols?
=Tamar
Alec Cawley
Kirchweger <kirch...@gmx.at> writes
>On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:33:05 +0100, Graycat <gra...@passagen.se>
>wrote:
>>However, that doesn't mean it can't be idyllic. People are for the
>>most part friendly, they aren't concerned with the greater world and
>>the evils in it, they throw frequent parties and pass presents around
>>because it makes them happy. They eat because they love eating, they
>>go to the pub and hang out with their friends, they blow smoke rings.
>>All quite ordinary things, but it still makes for a pretty idyllic
>>time. I had some pretty darn idyllic moments this summer, while never
>>once leaving the real world.
>
>I don't think there was a place like this anywhere in Europe in the
>18th century. There was always some war going on, most of the farmers
>weren't free (so called "serfdom" which was nothing other than slavery
>was still widely spread and ended only at the end of the 18th century
>or even later by reforms), either the wars went over the land, masters
>pressed taxes from the people to finance their wars or extravagant
>court lifestyles or people had to send (and probably lose) their sons
>in a war somewhere. And regions that were so remote that no other
>countries were interested in them tended also to be so poor that there
>sure was no "going to the pub" or "passing presents" or eating just
>for the fun of it for the ordinary people.
But in England, it was all quiet and a time of sharply increasing
prosperity. After the bloody Civil War and then the Commonwealth, there
was no major in England at all. The Glorious Revolution of 1688 was
essentially bloodless, and the Scottish incursions in 1715 and 1745 were
short lives scares. Britain was, of course, involved in wars overseas -
sundry wars against France, losing an Empire in N America, gaining one
in India. Meanwhile, the Industrial Revolution fired up, bringing vastly
increased quantities of manufactured goods delivered via the new canals
and turnpike roads. Agriculture was also increasing sharply in
efficiency, with the first agricultural machinery, systematic crop
development etc. While rural poverty was certainly extreme, it would be
too much to call it serfdom. Of course, the newly industrialising cities
also introduced appalling urban conditions. But it would be plausible to
don rose-tinted glasses and say that rural life in 18th century England
had quite a lot going for it - certainly compared to what preceded it.
--
Alec Cawley
Stacie Hanes
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:11:16 -0600, "Duke of URL"
> <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote:
>
>> Retranslations Of Translations For The Holidays:
>
> Russian translating computer. When it was being tested it was
> asked to translate English to Russian and then the Russian back
> to English. The first sentence the testers put in was 'Out of
> sight, out of mind.' this was translated into Russian and then
> the Russian sentence was put back in for re-translation into
> English. The output displayed was 'Blind and insane'.
>
> Right, I'll be off now.
>
I read that it was Chinese and that it came out as "Blind idiot."
Stacie
David Cameron Staples
<house_d...@yahoo.com> in hoc locus scripsit:
'Invisible Idiot' for me.
As opposed to 'The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak'
English > Russian > English =
'The vodka is strong, but the meat is rotten'.
--
David Cameron Staples | staples AT cs DOT mu DOT oz DOT au
Melbourne University | Computer Science | Technical Services
Thanks for the Dadaist Pep-talk.
Duke of URL
news:i7uusvk0d2966rqpu...@4ax.com
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 11:11:16 -0600, "Duke of URL"
> <macbenahATkdsiDOTnet> wrote:
>
>> Retranslations Of Translations For The Holidays:
>
> Russian translating computer. When it was being tested it was
> asked to translate English to Russian and then the Russian back
> to English. The first sentence the testers put in was 'Out of
> sight, out of mind.' this was translated into Russian and then
> the Russian sentence was put back in for re-translation into
> English. The output displayed was 'Blind and insane'.
>
> Right, I'll be off now.
Here's your coat...
Duke of URL
news:bqoddd$i46$1...@news1.radix.net
> In article <oprzn7gn...@news.ifi.uio.no>,
Ah. Thanks. The codfish line had me wondering...
PeterH
>
> ??? I thought Shire was derived from a Deutsch word. Wrong? Anyone got
> its etymology? If it's too long and you think it would bore people
> here, please email it to me - I am interested. Don't forget AT=@ DOT=.
Could you possibly be a touch less obscure with your email address?
I've tried it twice now and gotten user unknown messages on both
occassions.
..PeterH
Duke of URL
news:7729e40e.03120...@posting.google.com
LOL! Aw, c'mon, it's sorta obvious. Try MacB...@kdsi.net
Paul Wilkins
> "PeterH" <pete...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> I've tried it twice now and gotten user unknown messages on both
>> occassions.
>
> LOL! Aw, c'mon, it's sorta obvious. Try MacB...@kdsi.net
Is it case sensitive with your email server?
--
Paul Wilkins
Duke of URL
Paul Wilkins <di...@paradise.net.nz> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
Shouldn't be.
Still can't get through?
<pause>
Just checked - my spamkiller had yahoo.co.uk blocked. Try again...
Nils Richter
>>>So Cpt. Samuel Vimes became "Hauptmann Samuel Mumm" (Mumm being an
>>>outdated German word for bravery)
>>
>>Er, how is that a translation? "Vimes" in English means ...... ?
>
>
> I know....
Well I don't. I didn't even notice that Vimes and Mumm were the same
character until a friend (who still reads the translations) didn't
know who Vimes was, when I told her about MR...
And I couldn't find ist in the usual dictionaries (including the OED).
Enlighten us foreigners,
Nils.
--
Never try to outstubborn a cat.
bewtifulfreak
I didn't mean I knew what Vimes means in English, or that Vimes was Mumm in
German....what I meant is, I know what you're saying, Vimes doesn't mean
anything particular in English, probably came from another language even, so
why translate it into a word describing one of the character's many
personality traits.
Hope that clears that up; if not, let me know and I'll try again. :)
Christina Waldeck
> memeh...@web.de (Christina Waldeck) wrote:
>
> > And in at least one instance, the German translation actually improves
> > upon Tolkien; go ask any German fan of the Rings trilogy :). She
> > translated The Shire as "das Auenland", loosely re-translatable as
> > "the county of water meadows", a name which conjures up the image of
> > clear sweet shallow rivers winding through lush green fields, of sandy
> > beaches in the river bend where you can have a picnic, of rolling
> > hills and green and golden sun-lit meadows filled with butterflies and
> > birds and flowers.
>
> Whereas "The Shire" more or less invokes an image of rural England,
> perhaps some centuries ago - and this was intentional. Why would
> replacing this setting with a sickly-sweet fairytale scene be an
> improvement?
>
Oh ::groans:: you don't like "sickly-sweet fairytale", I get it. I'm
sorry, I thought we were talking about the mythical land where the
kingly blood is passed down through 3,000 years of history, and trees
can walk and talk? So far I had always connected "sickly-sweet" with
Victorian flower-fairies, not with Grimm's Fairy-Tales.
When I wrote my post above, I suppose I was channeling The Wind in the
Willows and Puck's Song by Rudyard Kipling a wee bit too much. Just
forget the butterflies. Insert "dragonflies" instead.
See, a literal translation of "shire" would have been "Die Grafschaft"
in German, which means as far as I know: a county. If there is an
appendix like "-shire" in German to denote generic county-ness, I
don't know it, and in any event it would not yield sufficient rural
Englishness.
In German, "Grafschaft" is merely a polital term, it invokes no mental
picture of a landscape, of greenery and soil, of rural folk, but only
of the guy who is in the chance: the Earl. I don't remember a feudal
or noble lord featuring heavily in the first book of the Lord of the
Rings, with him riding around and sending his heavies to collect taxes
from the subordinate Hobbit peasants. The Hobbit communities seemed to
own their own land (mind you it's been a while since I read every bit
of LotR) in a peaceful, "sickly-sweet" agrarian wonderland utopia,
where a "Mr. Frodo" would drink beer with his gardener and everyone
was happy. As for hard-working, I don't remember stony fields and
16-hour workdays and anyone having to slaughter the last cow for
winter and hoping the meat would keep... hobbits always seemed to have
plenty to eat and drink and no plagues or crop pests to bother them.
One must wonder why such a fertile and pleasant piece of land - which
was not located on a island somewhere but smack in the middle of a
country full of humans, woodelves and other folk - belonging to a race
of small peasant farmers without weapons, city walls, militia or
anything more dangerous than radishes had never been invaded by
marauding humans looking for greener pastures and good ale. And the
land comes with its own peasants, too, once you enslave them! Yes,
Hobbits had a knack of not being noticed by the Tall Folks, but one
should think a county full of fields and town fares would. And since
the Hobbits didn't have much contact with anyone outside the Shire, we
cannot even pretend that excellent diplomatic and trade relations and
political treaties had anything to do with it.
Whereas the word "Aue" or "Fluss-Aue" in German means the plains
alongside meandering rivers, with fertile soil, grass, open woodland,
periodically flooded when the river changes its bed or carries a lot
of water in the spring. Green hills suited for growing wine or hop
feature into it somewhere, too. In times of old, those "Fluss-Auen"
often were preferred places of settlement, unless you wanted to build
a big fat castle on a hilltop somewhere...
But this has nothing to do with DW anymore.
Christina
Christina Waldeck
(snip)
> something real but rather as wishful thinking of country dwellers all
> over the world (though I would find it rather boring myself).
An interesting book on this topic, about the historical roots of
environmental feeling in the anglo-saxon world, growing "sensitivity"
towards animals and plants, and the glorification of rural life and of
wild landscapes in art, prose and poety by aristocrats, city-dwellers
and the growing middle-class that celebrated gardening:
Keith Thomas (1983) 'Man and the Natural World - Changing attitudes in
England 1500-1800', Penguin Books
In essence, the once-feared "wild woods" and wilderness became, once
most of it had been tamed and subjugated to Man's will, cleared of
dangerous animals, fenced in, cut down and turned into productive
fields, something precious and romantic, the remnants of a lost Garden
of Eden, the sight of which could lift the spirit of a sensitive
person.
No longer were animals and plants distinguished as either "useful" or
"pests", with pests having to be eradicated, and wild animals or
plants yet untamed to be made useful to Mankind. What before had been
seen as the proper "civilising" of "rough" nature was more and more
viewed as destruction of a historical landscape, as a breaking of the
spirit of animals under the joke of slavery.
The cry against mistreatment of wild and domestic animals arose
parallel to the growing resentment against human slavery and against
mistreatment of the laboring class. Bear-bating was forbidden, parts
of some oods or single trees were considered worthy of protection.
bewtifulfreak
<snip other good stuff>
I agree with you, Christina; the Shire as Tolkein describes it is about as
idyllic as you can get, and thus, a lovely, fairytale name is much more
appropriate in my eyes than the other term you mentioned for the reasons you
mentioned. Yes, "The Shire" does vaguely invoke and image of rural England
long ago, but I doubt very much whether England was *ever* as lovely,
idyllic, and most of all, peaceful. And it's more the narrative than the
name that really conjures up images of exactly what the Shire is, and they
are far more Utopian than I think any real place on Earth has ever been, at
least any real place where humans have lived.
In any case, "the country of water meadows" nicely describes the Shire as
I've always pictured it, which is not of any place on earth now, but just a
land of lovely rolling fields (which "water meadows" also suggests to me :)
and little hillocks, with the river flowing nearby. Which isn't incongruous
with the rural England of old anyway, but still poetic enough to fit nicely
into a tale such as that. And I certainly don't find "the country of water
meadows" any more 'sickly sweet' than the concept of a lush green land full
of little people who love to party, always get along, and live in harmony
with the land.
Duke of URL
Christina Waldeck <memeh...@web.de> radiated into the WorldWideWait:
> hard-working, I don't remember stony fields and 16-hour workdays
> and anyone having to slaughter the last cow for winter and hoping
> the meat would keep... hobbits always seemed to have plenty to eat
> and drink and no plagues or crop pests to bother them.
> One must wonder why such a fertile and pleasant piece of land -
aHAH! You just clarified it for me, after lo these many years - the
Shire was here in the High Plains. Probably just North of Aurora,
Nebraska...
Rosina Rowantree
> I've always pictured it, which is not of any place on earth now, but just a
> land of lovely rolling fields (which "water meadows" also suggests to me :)
> and little hillocks, with the river flowing nearby. Which isn't incongruous
> with the rural England of old anyway, but still poetic enough to fit nicely
> into a tale such as that. And I certainly don't find "the country of water
> meadows" any more 'sickly sweet' than the concept of a lush green land full
> of little people who love to party, always get along, and live in harmony
> with the land.
"The country of water meadows" makes me think of Liang Shan Po (the
Water Margins). Not despising the snake is good advice, even for
Hobbits.
Rosina
Tonkintoto
stee...@cix.co.uk (Steve James) wrote:
>In article <8bb65e0d.03111...@posting.google.com>, chri...@hotmail.com (The Death of Mayflies) wrote:
>
>> Those of you who have followed the thread "Translating the Master"
>> know me already. I just happen to have this weird interest in
>> translation... :-)
>>
>> What I was wondering now is whether the translators have left names
>> untouched, generally speaking, or if they have tried to capture their
>> essence, as it were. In Swedish, "Magrat" could be made into
>> "Margarĺtta", or "Margaratte" in German, but I don't know if this is
>> how they have done it. Does anyone else?
>>
>I find the whole thing about changing people's names very difficult [1].
> My name is Steve in any language I am NOT Stephen, Stefan,
> Etian or even SuTeBeN.
>I don't translate other peoples names in to English, why should
>anyone else. I would not walk up to Mr Yamaha and welcome him
>as Mountain Teeth.
>I would be interested to discover how Bilbo, Gandalf, Gollum and Sauron
>have had their names changed in other languages.
>
>
>Steve (Steeljam) *BF DAcFD (UU) *
> Resident Opsimath in Redivivus Studies
Hello everyone!
Just a few thoughts on translation from the point of view of a reader
in Croatia.
The first novel by Terry Pratchett that I've read was Colour of Magic,
translated to Croatian. The translator tried to capture the essence of
the names and translated (very successfully, in my opinion) most of
them. What is curious, though, is that no one who had an opportunity
to read it in English, liked it. Later, I started reading in English,
too, and haven't gone back to translations, not because of names, but
because of all the other stuff - jokes, beautifull, funny sentences...
everything that makes reading a literary work in original a unique
experience. However, I still like that translation.
In my opinion, a translation can never be as good as the original,
especially if the languages are not of the same origin. Any more
thoughts on that?
--
"Teachers of children in the USA told the children that 1492 was when
their continent was discovered by human beings.
Actually, millions of human beings were already living full and imaginative lives
on the continent in 1492. That was simply the year in which sea pirates began to
cheat and rob and kill them."
by Kurt Vonnegut