Re: Tolkien trained as a WW2 codebreaker
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
>news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>
>That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
When were they written and when were they published?
Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor written, but
only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Mike Schilling
> On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:03:25 +0200, �jevind L�ng
> <bredba...@ojevind.lang> wrote:
>
>> "Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
>>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>>
>> That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
>
> When were they written and when were they published?
>
> Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor
> written, but only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
If the True West is Numinor, perhaps the Only Apparent West is
Phenomenor.
Dorothy J Heydt
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:03:25 +0200, �jevind L�ng <bredba...@ojevind.lang>
>wrote:
>
>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
>>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>>
>>That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
>
>When were they written and when were they published?
>
>Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor written, but
>only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
Exactly. _THS_ was published in 1945, and a note at the
beginning says that its internal date is "vaguely 'after the
war.'"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Steve Hayes
>In article <vqh7b5pt3u8147o8p...@4ax.com>,
>Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:03:25 +0200, �jevind L�ng <bredba...@ojevind.lang>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>>news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
>>>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>>>
>>>That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
>>
>>When were they written and when were they published?
>>
>>Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor written, but
>>only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
>
>Exactly. _THS_ was published in 1945, and a note at the
>beginning says that its internal date is "vaguely 'after the
>war.'"
OK, so if it was published BEFORE LOTR, then it is probable that Lewis never
saw "Numenor" written, and so did not know how to spell it.
Dorothy J Heydt
Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:22:38 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <vqh7b5pt3u8147o8p...@4ax.com>,
>>Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:03:25 +0200, �jevind L�ng
><bredba...@ojevind.lang>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>>>news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>>>>
>>>>[snip]
>>>>
>>>>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
>>>>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>>>>
>>>>That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
>>>
>>>When were they written and when were they published?
>>>
>>>Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor written, but
>>>only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
>>
>>Exactly. _THS_ was published in 1945, and a note at the
>>beginning says that its internal date is "vaguely 'after the
>>war.'"
>
>OK, so if it was published BEFORE LOTR, then it is probable that Lewis never
>saw "Numenor" written, and so did not know how to spell it.
This is more than probable. The Inklings read chapters out
loud to one another, rather than making lots of extra copies
so everybody could read one (no xeroxes in those days).
Occam's Razor decrees that Lewis simply assumed how to spell
it, and assumed wrong.
Jeff Urs
> This is more than probable. The Inklings read chapters out
> loud to one another, rather than making lots of extra copies
> so everybody could read one (no xeroxes in those days).
> Occam's Razor decrees that Lewis simply assumed how to spell
> it, and assumed wrong.
And there was the word "numinous" to help him along.
--
Jeff
Dirk Thierbach
> Steve Hayes <haye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> OK, so if it was published BEFORE LOTR, then it is probable that
>> Lewis never saw "Numenor" written, and so did not know how to spell
>> it.
> This is more than probable. The Inklings read chapters out loud to
> one another, rather than making lots of extra copies so everybody
> could read one (no xeroxes in those days). Occam's Razor decrees
> that Lewis simply assumed how to spell it, and assumed wrong.
And Tolkien himself confirms that (letter #169):
Your discovery of 'Numinor' in C.S.L.'s That Hideous Strength is
discovery of a plagiarism: well, not that, since he used the word,
taken from my legends of the First and Second Ages, in the belief that
they would soon appear. They have not, but I suppose now they may. The
spelling Numinor is due to his hearing it and not seeing it.
- Dirk
Dorothy J Heydt
So there was, and that was a favorite word of Lewis's.
Tamf Moo
> Steve Hayes wrote:
>> Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor
>> written, but only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
>
> If the True West is Numinor, perhaps the Only Apparent West is
> Phenomenor.
Numinor makes me think of Moominor. Lewis never went so far as to put
Moomins in his worlds, though.
--
tamf
I see two Gandalfs and church bell. And two half lions chasing
a bull rat each over the lake. (Rorschach tests seen by "Illogic")
Quadibloc
> In article <3c4c123e-0d0e-4e30-b3b9-96c6b852f...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
> Jeff Urs <jeff....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >And there was the word "numinous" to help him along.
>
> So there was, and that was a favorite word of Lewis's.
And, in fact, that word was intentionally part of Tolkien's
inspiration too. So if Tolkien decided to change the I to an accented
E so as to make things less obvious, yes, Lewis can hardly be blamed
for not anticipating that.
John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Sep 19, 9:18�am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> In article
><3c4c123e-0d0e-4e30-b3b9-96c6b852f...@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
>> Jeff Urs �<jeff....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >And there was the word "numinous" to help him along.
>>
>> So there was, and that was a favorite word of Lewis's.
>
>And, in fact, that word was intentionally part of Tolkien's
>inspiration too.
Where did you find that? _Numenor_ simply means "western
land."
So if Tolkien decided to change the I to an accented
>E so as to make things less obvious, yes, Lewis can hardly be blamed
>for not anticipating that.
--
Dirk Thierbach
> On Sep 19, 9:18 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>> Jeff Urs <jeff....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >And there was the word "numinous" to help him along.
>> So there was, and that was a favorite word of Lewis's.
> And, in fact, that word was intentionally part of Tolkien's
> inspiration too.
Is there a source for that? Tolkien states twice in /Letters/ that
there is no connection between "Numenor" and "numinous".
- Dirk
Dorothy J Heydt
There are *some* sneaky connections between words in _LotR_
and words in our linguistic inventory. For instance _craban_
(plural _crebain_), "crow", is cognate with Latin _corvus_,
Greek _korax_ and (by Grimm's Law) English "raven." And very
sneaky indeed, consider the Sindarin for "Man" -- _adan_.
And in the _Silmarillion_, at the end of the Akallabeth, we
read that after Numenor sank beneath the sea it was called
Atalante, the Downfallen.
But I don't think _Numenor_ itself means anything other than
"Western land."
Quadibloc
wrote:
> Is there a source for that? Tolkien states twice in /Letters/ that
> there is no connection between "Numenor" and "numinous".
My mistake, then.
John Savard
Sean O'Hara
declared:
Ooo, that's one of my favorite Muppet songs.
Phenomenor! Phenomenor!
--
Sean O'Hara <http://www.diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
New audio book: As Long as You Wish by John O'Keefe
<http://librivox.org/short-science-fiction-collection-010/>
Quadibloc
> In the Year of the Earth Ox, the Great and Powerful Mike Schilling
> declared:
> > Steve Hayes wrote:
> >> Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor
> >> written, but only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
> > If the True West is Numinor, perhaps the Only Apparent West is
> > Phenomenor.
> Ooo, that's one of my favorite Muppet songs.
> Phenomenor! Phenomenor!
And, of course, in that case, the True West would have to be Noumenor.
(Noumena/Phenomena, in the Teillard de Chardin sense, as against
Numinous in the C. S. Lewis sense.)
John Savard
John W Kennedy
> There are *some* sneaky connections between words in _LotR_
> and words in our linguistic inventory. For instance _craban_
> (plural _crebain_), "crow", is cognate with Latin _corvus_,
> Greek _korax_ and (by Grimm's Law) English "raven."
And Scots (and Zorkish) "Corbie".
--
John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see
why it was her."
-- "Alias"
sie...@acm.org
> In article <nmi8b554ppsdjjesb8vappima1e669v...@4ax.com>,
> Steve Hayes <hayes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:22:38 GMT, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> >Heydt) wrote:
>
> >>In article <vqh7b5pt3u8147o8p6h3tam42gc88ip...@4ax.com>,
> >>Steve Hayes <hayes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:03:25 +0200, Öjevind Lång
> ><bredband....@ojevind.lang>
> >>>wrote:
>
> >>>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djhe...@kithrup.com> skrev i meddelandet
> >>>>news:Kq549...@kithrup.com...
>
> >>>>[snip]
>
> >>>>> Lewis didn't know much Quenya. If any. Remember he couldn't
> >>>>> spell Numenor. (Which is Sindarin anyway, I think.)
>
> >>>>That's right. In "That Hideous Strength" he called it "Numinor".
>
> >>>When were they written and when were they published?
>
> >>>Perhaps at the time Lewis wrote THS he had never seen Numenor written, but
> >>>only heard Tolkien read it aloud at an Inklings.
>
> >>Exactly. _THS_ was published in 1945, and a note at the
> >>beginning says that its internal date is "vaguely 'after the
> >>war.'"
>
> >OK, so if it was published BEFORE LOTR, then it is probable that Lewis never
> >saw "Numenor" written, and so did not know how to spell it.
>
> This is more than probable. The Inklings read chapters out
> loud to one another, rather than making lots of extra copies
> so everybody could read one (no xeroxes in those days).
> Occam's Razor decrees that Lewis simply assumed how to spell
> it, and assumed wrong.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at hotmail dot com
> Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
> Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
It is more assured that that. Tolkien *says*, in one of his later
published letters, that "Numinor" was CSL's memory of a name he had
heard read aloud, but never read in written form. This is along with
discussion of JRRT's dislike of the way the third "space" novel, _That
Hideious Strength_ came out, and the influence by Williams on CSL, and
the decline of JRRT's friendship with CSL..
-DES