1984 ideology: realistic or caricature?
Paul Hanley
doctrine in 1984 (boot constantly stomping on face, power for it's own
sake, etc.) is a potentially viable political doctrine or merely a
caricature of totalitarianism that couldn't possible exist in practice
(in other words, an exaggeration intended merely for literary effect).
Thanks,
Paul
Flink Poyd
opposition to rebellion, or anything really, must be dormant. Subjects would
never allow such a force into power, and if it did, it wouldn't have the
time to be forgotten before it was taken over again. I can't think hard
enough to go into any more detail than that, so there.
Paul McCord
Paul Hanley <spr...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:76854C8D2B48480F.13F59930...@lp.airnews.net...
Timothy LeMaire
At the time Orwell wrote 1984 Germany and Italy had just come out from under
totalitarianism, China along with Eastern Europe was going in, and Russia
had been enjoying it's fruits for close to 30 years. The world had seen
enormous economic upheavals during the depression and it had taken a World
War to rid the West of the Nazi/Axis threat. Desperate times need desperate
measures and people in general throughout the 30's had not concerned
themselves with the manipulation of power as long as their needs were met.
Even the United States allowed enormous political power to shift to the
Presidency in the 30's so long as the country would get on it's feet. The
opportunity for dictatorship was ripe world-wide.
As in AF I do not believe that power was seized in the beginning for it's
own sake, but I think that Orwell was merely saying that power corrupts, and
without the checks and balances of the democratic institutions it could lead
anywhere. I do think he literally felt that totalitarianism could lead to a
state where the retention of power was the main concern (the boot in the
face). We even see that in the democratic countries where all elected
representatives work to remain so, often at the expense of their principles.
In Canada we have a Prime Minister who we rarely hear from, knowing that to
stay in power all he has to do is not make any glaring mistakes because the
serious opposition to him is divided but where is the leadership.
We are fortunate that we have a somewhat free press and democracy has
established itself very firmly in the last fifty years but in 1949 the fear
was very real.
Tim
Flink Poyd wrote in message <807g84$3do$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
carrien
has grasped the ideology of totalitarianism. However, under contemporary
climate, 1984 seems out of date and passed its era. Domination is now much
more subtler - just ask World Bank and United State's anti-nuclear
stance:they only oppose to nuclear testing after their own technology
enables them to simulate nuclear testing via computer. Besides, although
Orwell wrote 1984 as a warning against dictatorship (and we all know how bad
that is), it actually reinforces the binary opposition of clear-cut
good/evil. I don't think power and oppression is that linear, nor do I think
closeting oneself with only European lit is the answer. The problem with
western lit is that it tends to categorise novels into canons/trash, and
that itself is oppressive. I remember one time when I was at another
newsgroup and there's a person who calls Kafka, Joyce and Nabokov as the
literary "Holy Trinity". As if all the best books are written by white male
europeans. As if.
To use an example from Orwell. Remember the prolitariates? Well, I think
that's what we need to look into. The subaltern/people in liminal position
do have a voice. They, too, need to be heard. And the important thing is,
they do not have to remain in a perpetual victim position. They, too, can be
empowered.
Joyce
Martha Bridegam
>
> The problem with
> western lit is that it tends to categorise novels into canons/trash, and
> that itself is oppressive.
Is the high-low culture thing a purely western pattern? Seriously, I'm
ignorant. How is public reception of literature different elsewhere?
/MAB
greg
http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
Smith might have read?
Timothy LeMaire wrote in message ...
Martha Bridegam
>
> Don't know if this has been discussed but at this web site
> http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
> Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
> striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
> Smith might have read?
Oho.
Think you've got something there.
Whole text of the story is available at www.sfw.org/books/wyndham.html
Including this:
" A wild, incredible age. An age of nations and wars. . . Perhaps it
was hardly necessary to go back so far. . . There were so many things
that existed then which
had ceased to be. So many conditions of life that were now no more than
an evil, alluring dream. . . After that, there had been the abolition of
war. The abolition of nationality. The abolition of social inequalities.
The abolition of the barbarisms of competition. The control or abolition
of every form of animal or insect life. The control of climate, with the
consequent abolition of extremes of temperature, or discomforts of
tempest. The almost absolute abolition of disease. Finally, the
abolition of pain, complete and final, as evidenced by the fact that he
felt no smallest discomfort from the operation which must have been
performed upon him.
So mankind had risen and proved its strength, coming to a serene
supremacy over the follies and failures of earlier millenniums, and over
the physical forces to
which they had once succumbed. And so, at last, for five hundred years,
they had endured a life which was without difference or result: without
hope or fear,
except the fear of its individual end, which would now approach, at a
steady pace, to a settled date, until now, to break the monotony of
eventless years, a new idea
had been born. It had originated in the mind of Pilwin-C6P and was no
less than that the incompetence of the Creator should be challenged and
demonstrated by
the universal suicide of mankind...."
Which is what happens when Socialists Don't Believe In Fun, isn't it?
Hey, greg, why don'tcha get back into academia? You could tease a
publication out of this one in no time flat.
(BTW Mr. S. Fowler Wright is *not* in the Complete Works index. But it
sounds like he ought to be.)
/MAB
Martha Bridegam
>
> greg wrote:
> >
> > Don't know if this has been discussed but at this web site
> > http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
> > Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
> > striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
> > Smith might have read?
>
> Oho.
>
> Think you've got something there.
>
> Whole text of the story is available at www.sfw.org/books/wyndham.html
>
> Including this:
>
...................
And these:
A man who is the only 20th-century consciousness in a sterilized future
world. (Last man In Europe, anyone?)
A young woman who has spent her life "passing" but who "knew herself to
have many criminal impulses which she dared not show," who lives in a
common residence with 99 others like herself.
"...A plate of some pink substance which, apart from its color, had the
appearance of grated cheese..."
Re: life before the great rationalization of everything: "...It was
horrible. Pain. Heat. Cold. Quarrels. Bad food. Diseases. All sorts of
muddle and dirt. Even insects under your clothes."
Secret meetings between a couple who not only can't publicly acknowledge
their association, but can't publicly acknowledge any strong feeling
about anything or anyone.
And then in Chapter 16,
Smith: "Have you considered... The old belief that we may be possessed
of immortal spirits?..."
The Spokesman For The System: "Will you tell me you believe that?"
...........................
Gratuitous killer robot. Drive-in Academy Award to Vinetta for saying,
"You are not hurt? I am so glad!" 24,999,998 dead bodies. Joe Bob says
check it out.
Yes, it's pretty heavy on the Zamyatin & Huxley, especially the Huxley
-- but there are some new elements in the above that *do* sound an awful
lot like __1984__.
Hm.
/MAB
Dutch Courage
>
>I've heard alot of praises about 1984, about how visionary it is, and how it
>has grasped the ideology of totalitarianism. However, under contemporary
>climate, 1984 seems out of date and passed its era.
Ever have a happy meal, or been downsized? Ever noticed MTV propagating
"conformity is rebellion?"
"I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn
human actions, but to understand them" -Spinoza
"The ridiculing and scorn, that's just gravy."-Courage
greg
Martha Bridegam wrote in message <382CD07C...@sirius.com>...
>greg wrote:
>>
>> Don't know if this has been discussed but at this web site
>> http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
>> Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
>> striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
>> Smith might have read?
>
>
>Oho.
>
>Think you've got something there.
>
>Whole text of the story is available at www.sfw.org/books/wyndham.html
>
>Including this:
>
>was hardly necessary to go back so far. . . There were so many things
>that existed then which
>had ceased to be. So many conditions of life that were now no more than
>an evil, alluring dream. . . After that, there had been the abolition of
>war. The abolition of nationality. The abolition of social inequalities.
>The abolition of the barbarisms of competition. The control or abolition
>of every form of animal or insect life. The control of climate, with the
>consequent abolition of extremes of temperature, or discomforts of
>tempest. The almost absolute abolition of disease. Finally, the
>abolition of pain, complete and final, as evidenced by the fact that he
>felt no smallest discomfort from the operation which must have been
>performed upon him.
I'm not the world's best-read person, but I have to say that the above
paragraph makes greater use of the word 'abolition' than any other paragraph
I have ever read.
Wonder if Mr. Wright was influenced by the bad Zamyatin translation?
> " So mankind had risen and proved its strength, coming to a serene
>supremacy over the follies and failures of earlier millenniums, and over
>the physical forces to
>which they had once succumbed. And so, at last, for five hundred years,
>they had endured a life which was without difference or result: without
>hope or fear,
>except the fear of its individual end, which would now approach, at a
>steady pace, to a settled date, until now, to break the monotony of
>eventless years, a new idea
>had been born. It had originated in the mind of Pilwin-C6P and was no
>less than that the incompetence of the Creator should be challenged and
>demonstrated by
>the universal suicide of mankind...."
>
>
>Which is what happens when Socialists Don't Believe In Fun, isn't it?
>
>Hey, greg, why don'tcha get back into academia? You could tease a
>publication out of this one in no time flat.
For the record, Madame, they probably wouldn't have me. Let me acquit myself
here and now lest anyone misconstrue my ravings against academia as
post-participatory bitterness; the five and one-half years I spent in a
cloud of pot smoke at school as *student* could never be anything but a
precious and really confusing memory. I *am* a college graduate, if a bad
speller and closet post-mod 'natterer', but have never been, and would never
willingly become, even at gun-point or sabre-edge or Zulu spear, an
academic.
>(BTW Mr. S. Fowler Wright is *not* in the Complete Works index. But it
>sounds like he ought to be.)
Yep. One would have thought Davison's inky thumbs would have discovered and
probed Fowler Wright at some point.
Greggie the non-footnote type.
Alan Allport
news:HV2X3.19$dq1....@news.callamer.com...
> Don't know if this has been discussed but at this web site
> http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
> Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
> striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
> Smith might have read?
Might this have been a stab at our old Vorticist-fascist pal Wyndham Lewis,
who I assume is the much sniped-at newspaper columnist "Timothy Shy" of
Orwell essay fame?
Alan.
Tom Deveson
>
>Might this have been a stab at our old Vorticist-fascist pal Wyndham Lewis,
>who I assume is the much sniped-at newspaper columnist "Timothy Shy" of
>Orwell essay fame?
Sorry, Alan, here comes the nit-nurse.
The Timothy Shy pseudonym (called by Orwell once a "professional R.C"
and once "a stinking R.C." -- both times in private correspondence)
conceals D.B.Wyndham Lewis. He wrote humour columns in the Press, in the
mode of Beachcomber -- nearest US equivalent might be a mixture of
Robert Benchley and/or Alexander Woolcott, but not really much like
either. Some of his pieces are still quite funny, and he pioneered [ or
at any rate used] some of the regular devices used by *Private Eye*,
such as fake newspaper stories about fake celebrities, stories made up
of parodies of headlines, imaginary interviews, comments on Press
misprints, unfinished paragraphs saying "see P.19 Col 3", etc. He was
also allied with Beachcomber (and in a sense with the ChesterBelloc) as
a propagandist for Roman Catholic views, with a complementary distaste
for aspects of the modern and/or Protestant worlds, among which he
included professional cricket.
Wyndham Lewis (usually known thus, but called Percy) was the painter,
poet, critic, polemicist, novelist, Vorticist, friend of
Pound/Joyce/Eliot/Yeats, called by Eliot "one of the permanent masters
of style in the English Language" though loathed by Leavis, and, in an
Orwellian context, friend in later life of Julian Symons who wrote
affectionately about him.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Alan Allport
news:L5hLrFAE...@devesons.demon.co.uk...
> Sorry, Alan, here comes the nit-nurse.
That's OK - this was a sort of stalking horse for the nit-nurse, if that's
enough of a mixed metaphor for you. Any relation between the two? And might
the novel still be a reference to one or the other (presumably Percy)?
Alan.
Martha Bridegam
>
> greg <petro...@netzero.net> wrote in message
> news:HV2X3.19$dq1....@news.callamer.com...
>
> > Don't know if this has been discussed but at this web site
> > http://www.sfw.org/books/eplfull.html is a mention of a novel called 'The
> > Adventure Of Wyndham Smith' published in 1938 in GB, described as "a
> > striking dystopian fantasy". Would this be a book the creator of Winston
> > Smith might have read?
>
> who I assume is the much sniped-at newspaper columnist "Timothy Shy" of
> Orwell essay fame?
Care to explain? The novel *does* have a good bit of fascism in it. In
fact, the *1938* discussion of mass extermination, via cremation of all
things, is extremely creepy.
/MAB
--
jo...@sirius.com
Martha Bridegam
>
> >Hey, greg, why don'tcha get back into academia? You could tease a
> >publication out of this one in no time flat.
>
> For the record, Madame, they probably wouldn't have me. Let me acquit myself
> here and now lest anyone misconstrue my ravings against academia as
> post-participatory bitterness; the five and one-half years I spent in a
> cloud of pot smoke at school as *student* could never be anything but a
Believe me, the above was not meant as a slam. And if it's any comfort,
during seven years of supposed higher education my pattern was to find
the most independent student organization on campus (two newspapers & a
welfare rights clinic, respectively) & hole up in its office for the
duration, emerging when absolutely necessary to maintain a B-minus
average.
I do sometimes wish I'd gone to school properly.
/MAB
Martha Bridegam
>
> Wyndham Lewis (usually known thus, but called Percy) was the painter,
> poet, critic, polemicist, novelist, Vorticist, friend of
> Pound/Joyce/Eliot/Yeats, called by Eliot "one of the permanent masters
> of style in the English Language" though loathed by Leavis, and, in an
> Orwellian context, friend in later life of Julian Symons who wrote
> affectionately about him.
Your pardon, sirs. What is a Vorticist, please?
/MAB
Tom Deveson
>
>Your pardon, sirs. What is a Vorticist, please?
Briefly, Vorticism was a specifically English contribution to Modernist
art just before WW1. It was a brief movement, mainly dominated by
Wyndham Lewis through his publicity as much as his painterly skill. It
was related to much of the abstract art going on around 1914. Lewis
edited a magazine called BLAST, a puce-coloured periodical of which one
issue came out in summer 1914, the other (and last) in 1915.
There's a William Roberts painting, *The Vorticists at the Café de la
Tour Eiffel* in which the painters together with Ezra Pound are seen
holding copies of BLAST. It was pioneering in its use of lettering and
graphic design. The artists used techniques inspired by aerial
photography which anticipated Malevich (Vorticism is akin to Malevich's
Suprematism as well, probably because both were influenced by Cubism and
Futurism).
Pound invented the name Vorticism, and said it was different from
Futurism because "Futurism is descended from Impressionism. It is, in so
far as it is an art movement, a kind of accelerated Impressionism. It is
a spreading or surface art, as opposed to Vorticism, which is
intensive." The idea was to create an image of intense, inrushing
perspective -- a vortex.
Pound also wrote: "The image is not a idea. It is a radiant node or
cluster; it is what I can, and must perforce, call a VORTEX, from which,
and through which, and into which ideas are constantly rushing. In
decency one can only call it a VORTEX. And from this necessity came the
name 'Vorticism'.
When BLAST came out, there was a BLAST dinner and a BLAST party at a
night-club run by Strindberg's second wife. The magazine had columns
headed Blast and Bless (an idea taken form Apollinaire who had used
Merde instead of Blast) praising and damning a whole range of people and
institutions. It had a review of and long translated extracts from
Kandinsky's *Concerning the Spiritual in Art*
Other artists associated with Vorticism were David Bomberg and, to a
degree, Epstein (in his sculpture Rockdrill) and Gaudier-Brzeska -- the
idea was to show a kind of dynamic brutal energy, echoing the mechanical
barbarity that was about to engulf Europe.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Tom Deveson
>>(BTW Mr. S. Fowler Wright is *not* in the Complete Works index. But it
>>sounds like he ought to be.)
>
>
>Yep. One would have thought Davison's inky thumbs would have discovered and
>probed Fowler Wright at some point.
Nor is he in Kingsley Amis's *New Maps of Hell* which are the lectures
on science fiction he gave at Princeton in 1959 and include two whole
chapters on utopias, including those which are malevolently totalitarian
and those founded on mistaken notions of benevolence.
Without use of sabre-edge or Zulu spear -- tell us, Greg, what other
gold nuggets you have in reserve.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
greg
Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
>greg writes
>>>(BTW Mr. S. Fowler Wright is *not* in the Complete Works index. But it
>>>sounds like he ought to be.)
>>
>>
>>Yep. One would have thought Davison's inky thumbs would have discovered
and
>>probed Fowler Wright at some point.
>
>Nor is he in Kingsley Amis's *New Maps of Hell* which are the lectures
>on science fiction he gave at Princeton in 1959 and include two whole
>chapters on utopias, including those which are malevolently totalitarian
>and those founded on mistaken notions of benevolence.
>
One interesting idea about Wright at the site is this, from someone named
Brian Stabelford- that some of Fowler Wright's books are now unfamiliar
because they had very small print runs, so that "one is tempted to speculate
that they might have been assisted to disappear because they were considered
a threat to morale once the war they had prophesied actually began." Given
the superb timing of GO's book, as well as its much superior writing, you
might think _1984_ came to eclipse earlier efforts by other writers because
the war was over. And the 'War is Peace' Cold War sensibiltiy wasn't really
prophetic of any coming war. On the other hand, FW's mechanical
bounty-hunters is rather original in its way and was probably more scary,
and seemingly imminent, than any such speculations in Wells or anyone else
who has supposedly influenced GO. From what I've read of Wright, 'unjustly
neglected' is a bit of a stretch, but he was full of good ideas.