I've noticed a contiuity mistake??
go...@mst.csiro.au
reading OBS, on being intro'ed to HH, her height is described as 180 cm. In
HOE her height is given as 190 cm.
what about giving the editor who let this pass a red shirt?
gossix
-=================================================-
military officer evalution-
This Officer should go far..... and the sooner the better.
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Chuckg
go...@mst.csiro.au wrote in message <6l2lc6$1op$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>reading OBS, on being intro'ed to HH, her height is described as 180 cm. In
>HOE her height is given as 190 cm.
>
>what about giving the editor who let this pass a red shirt?
You forgot about the effects of prolong. Throughout the books, Honor was just
wrapping up what would normally have been the post-adolescent growth spurt...
delayed until what would have been late middle age on an untreated human, thanks
to third-generation prolong.
So it is possible that she could have grown 10cm over the ten years or however
many there were between OBS and HOE (I don't have my timeline with me right
now.)
--
Chuckg
Navbuoy
In article <35754...@news6.kcdata.com>, "Chuckg" <cgla...@hotmail.com>
writes:
===============================
Actually, as I understand it, this is a combination of errors . . . and one Big
D has been called on before. I think it was three or four months back that
someone pointed this out, and David owned up to his own error. Honor's actual
height is *188* cm. In OBS, there was a typo in his original ms, which he
failed to catch and which the editors and proof-readers, with no reason to know
it was wrong in the first place, had no cause to think was incorrect. Then, to
compound problems, he (and this one he admits was ENTIRELY his fault) wrote a
couple of passages in which her height was variously given without making it
sufficiently clear that these were estimates of her height by other characters.
However you slice it, though, the continuity problem you've cited in this
instance was his fault, and he owns up to it fairly readily. At least I don't
think he's even contemplated red-shirting anyone for calling him on it.
Not even me! ;-)
Navbuoy
Chris Croughton
Navbuoy wrote:
> Actually, as I understand it, this is a combination of errors . . . and one Big
> D has been called on before. I think it was three or four months back that
> someone pointed this out, and David owned up to his own error. Honor's actual
> height is *188* cm. In OBS, there was a typo in his original ms, which he
> failed to catch and which the editors and proof-readers, with no reason to know
> it was wrong in the first place, had no cause to think was incorrect. Then, to
> compound problems, he (and this one he admits was ENTIRELY his fault) wrote a
> couple of passages in which her height was variously given without making it
> sufficiently clear that these were estimates of her height by other characters.
This is, of course, compounded by using metric rather than Imperial
measurements. If characters had said "she's six foot tall", "five foot
eleven", etc. then no-one would be all that bothered, because there is
an implied element of imprecision. Saying 188cm or 190cm implies that
you're actually using a precision of a centimetre or better when in fact
it's an approximation.
For example, if I say the distance from Ulm to Stuttgart is 50 miles,
and then someone measures it and finds it's 51 or 49 miles I won't get
told off, no-one expects it to be that accurate. But if I said 81.5 km
and it was 80 or 83 km people would get annoyed because 81.5 implies
that I've measured it accurate to around 100 metres or so.
Chris C
Armorfiend
Chris Croughton wrote:
> This is, of course, compounded by using metric rather than Imperial
> measurements. If characters had said "she's six foot tall", "five foot
> eleven", etc. then no-one would be all that bothered, because there is
> an implied element of imprecision. Saying 188cm or 190cm implies that
> you're actually using a precision of a centimetre or better when in fact
> it's an approximation.
>
> For example, if I say the distance from Ulm to Stuttgart is 50 miles,
> and then someone measures it and finds it's 51 or 49 miles I won't get
> told off, no-one expects it to be that accurate. But if I said 81.5 km
> and it was 80 or 83 km people would get annoyed because 81.5 implies
> that I've measured it accurate to around 100 metres or so.
>
> Chris C
Imprecise or not, how could this lead to her "towering over" anyone and
everyone she meets?
<blink> odd... I'd envisioned her being taller than that, for sure...
What really gives me cause to speculate is that, well, we're generally
predisposed, as a species, to get taller as time goes by, right?
(considering if you look at a vintage suit of (european) armor, it was
made to fit guys who were approximatly 5'6", or f'8", and these were the
"big folks" of their era... and nowadays the average guy is what, 6'1"
or 6'2"? (european/americans from mostly european stock))
I mean, suppose that the average height increased by an inch every 125
years... [okay, here my math is of necessity imprecise- I've seen very
few vintage suits of armor _in person_, and for all I know, I just hang
out with tall guys...]
then, by the time of the honor-verse, wouldn't the average human male be
about 6'6" or 6'7" or thereabouts? At 6'4", or 6'5", Honor might well be
tall for a woman, but she wouldn't really tower over all the guys around
her, would she?
Anyway, there's my thoughts :)
Feel free to poke holes in my arguments, math, etc. :D
GTG (the imprecise)
mike weber
Armorfiend <g_a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip calculations of average height increase in human race>
>then, by the time of the honor-verse, wouldn't the average human male be
>about 6'6" or 6'7" or thereabouts? At 6'4", or 6'5", Honor might well be
>tall for a woman, but she wouldn't really tower over all the guys around
>her, would she?
I was in Sicily in the Navy close to thirty years ago. I am just
about 6 feet tall. I ran close to a head taller than the average
Sicilian. My friend Big Mike ((they had to tell us apart -somehow-,
and "Black Mike" and "White Mike" might have sounded funny)) who was 6
fot seven and literally black -- the blackest-skinned black man i have
ever known -- used to literally interfere with traffic for a block in
all directions merely by standing on street corners and catching
attention...
Remember -- the people reacting the most strongly to Honor's height
are Graysons and Peeps -- both from cultures which ((in the case of
the Graysons)) we -know- to run small for the current human average
and ((in the case of the Peeps)) we may well -suspect- of doing so...
((Peep proles may be adequately nourished, but are they so well
nourished that all of them grow up to reach their full potential
height?))
>
>Anyway, there's my thoughts :)
>Feel free to poke holes in my arguments, math, etc. :D
>
>GTG (the imprecise)
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
The history of exploration is mostly the history of finding
new ways to die unexpectedly -- JWCjr, on the Apollo 1 fire
Armorfiend
mike weber wrote:
> I was in Sicily in the Navy close to thirty years ago. I am just
> about 6 feet tall. I ran close to a head taller than the average
> Sicilian. My friend Big Mike ((they had to tell us apart -somehow-,
> and "Black Mike" and "White Mike" might have sounded funny)) who was 6
> fot seven and literally black -- the blackest-skinned black man i have
> ever known -- used to literally interfere with traffic for a block in
> all directions merely by standing on street corners and catching
> attention...
<:)
>
> Remember -- the people reacting the most strongly to Honor's height
> are Graysons and Peeps -- both from cultures which ((in the case of
> the Graysons)) we -know- to run small for the current human average
> and ((in the case of the Peeps)) we may well -suspect- of doing so...
I'll grant the Graysons, because despite some of the new research about
bone-grwoth and gravity, TOWiDW stated that they're shorter.. ergo,
they're shorter :)
I'd thought that the Peeps were just as much mixed as Manticore,
though...
>
> ((Peep proles may be adequately nourished, but are they so well
> nourished that all of them grow up to reach their full potential
> height?))
Good thought, but wouldn't that BLS they're always rioting about provide
for that? I mean, these folks all have TV's, computers (else how would
those unfortunate two that Harkness killed have been so familiar with
the games) and the like... I'd find it hard to believe that they didn't
have adequate supllies of foods which met all the nutritional
requirements, even if it _didn't_ meet any culinary requirements...
>
> --
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
GTG
Leo Sorel
regarding the BLS
I would think that it would work similar to our Welfare system or even more
appropriately to Communism, as this is where the idea of communism started in
one form or another about this time (Revolutionary wars, France).
How many people on welfare actually only use it for food and not for items such
as cigarettes, liquor or junk food. (I'm just throwing that out even though
I'm sure a good majority DON'T waste their allotements, it just depends on what
you term necessary and unnecessary)
Or, they trade in their food stamps for other unsavory items.
If I was paid to basically live at home, do nothing and still be able to eat,
drink and do all the other activities that I enjoy doing and not have to
actually work and be a productive member of society, I would most likely jump
at it, as I'm sure quite a few people would do.
Even though it may sound like I'm dumping on the welfare system and those that
use it, and to a point I am, it's because I believe it's being abused and not
being properly corrected. It's totally out of hand. I believe that a good
portion of the people would and do work if it's available to them, and IF it's
BETTER than what they have now.
My own 5 cents worth. (Have to take into account inflation)
Armorfiend
lives of the lower-middle class... I mean, granted, some of them might
be druggies or drunks, but the average guy is probably not. And so, he's
probably going to grow to a standard size, since he's not squandering
his money on expensive addictions (or even inexpensive ones)... Somehow,
I just dont see the stamps being used as currency, simply because
everybody's already got a surplus of them...
GTG
Chuckg
Armorfiend wrote in message <3575C083...@mindspring.com>...
>Yes, but what I was commenting on, was that these folks are living the
>lives of the lower-middle class... I mean, granted, some of them might
>be druggies or drunks, but the average guy is probably not. And so, he's
>probably going to grow to a standard size, since he's not squandering
>his money on expensive addictions (or even inexpensive ones)... Somehow,
>I just dont see the stamps being used as currency, simply because
>everybody's already got a surplus of them...
Stamps? Haven probably has electronic currency.
In which case, all you need to do to be able to spend your "food credits" on
booze or something is to consult your friendly neighborhood electronic
money-launderer, who will quite cheerfully hack your credcard for you so that
the credits earmarked only for food and necessities will now spend at the liquor
store -- for a cut, of course.
Given the rampant crime and corruption that is supposed to exist throughout all
the Dolist living blocks, I'm certain that organized crime rings designed to
fulfill *any* conceivable illicit need can be found without having to move more
than 200 yards in any direction.
--
Chuckg
Jeanne Hedge
Leo Sorel wrote:
>regarding the BLS
>If I was paid to basically live at home, do nothing and still be able to eat,
>drink and do all the other activities that I enjoy doing and not have to
>actually work and be a productive member of society, I would most likely jump
>at it, as I'm sure quite a few people would do.
Due to circumstances beyond my control (plant closing and staff
lay-off), I find myself in just that position at the moment. Being
paid to stay home may sound like fun, but believe me, it's
mindnumbingly boring. Even when you're doing a job search, it still
sucks.
Regards,
Jeanne Hedge
Tharsia
mike weber wrote:
> I was in Sicily in the Navy close to thirty years ago. I am just
> about 6 feet tall. I ran close to a head taller than the average
> Sicilian. My friend Big Mike ((they had to tell us apart -somehow-,
> and "Black Mike" and "White Mike" might have sounded funny)) who was 6
> fot seven and literally black -- the blackest-skinned black man i have
> ever known -- used to literally interfere with traffic for a block in
> all directions merely by standing on street corners and catching
> attention...
. . . while here, in present day New Hampshire, *I* tower over many of my
fellow, native born citizens . . . and I'm 5'2 in shoes. Urban New Hampshire
has a large contingent of French Canadian descent, and it isn't only the
elderly who often don't make 5', many of these are young middle-class people.
So it's only partly a matter of reaching full potential due to nutrition, and
partly due to genetics.
(I remember finding that the average ancient Roman man was 5'5 and average
Roman woman 5'2, and being amused/relieved that I would have fit in fairly well
on that regard. While, if you recall, the Celts, Slavs and Germanic tribes were
guaranteed to stand out in a Roman crowd due to the fact that they averaged a
head taller at least. . . even 2000 years ago. Subsequent 'melting-pots' have
undoubtedly muddled average heights over the centuries in Europe as much as in
america, while even today you have relatively isolated populations -- like my
hometown -- with distinctly different averages.)
Tha...@aol.com (aka joan barger)
--Whoever does not study history is doomed to repeat it
If the news today were being written by a satirist . . . how could you tell?
mike weber
Armorfiend <g_a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Yes, but what I was commenting on, was that these folks are living the
>lives of the lower-middle class... I mean, granted, some of them might
>be druggies or drunks, but the average guy is probably not. And so, he's
>probably going to grow to a standard size, since he's not squandering
>his money on expensive addictions (or even inexpensive ones)... Somehow,
>I just dont see the stamps being used as currency, simply because
>everybody's already got a surplus of them...
>
In his first "GOD, Inc" book, Jack Chalker mentions that people at the
lower end of the economic chain are more l;ikely to be overweight than
thos further up -- either because they choose to or can rerally only
afford to eat a lot of starches and so on -- processed foods, macaroni
and cheese, McDonalds burgers, etc.
It is possible to be lower-middle class or a bit lower, above the
poverty level, to be "properly nourished" and still -not- eat a
particularly healthy diet. ((My own present weight problem illustrates
this...))
mike weber
jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne Hedge) wrote:
>Leo Sorel wrote:
>
>>regarding the BLS
>
>>If I was paid to basically live at home, do nothing and still be able to eat,
>>drink and do all the other activities that I enjoy doing and not have to
>>actually work and be a productive member of society, I would most likely jump
>>at it, as I'm sure quite a few people would do.
>
>Due to circumstances beyond my control (plant closing and staff
>lay-off), I find myself in just that position at the moment. Being
>paid to stay home may sound like fun, but believe me, it's
>mindnumbingly boring. Even when you're doing a job search, it still
>sucks.
>
Amen, sister, amen. And you gain weight...
mike weber
tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) wrote:
>(I remember finding that the average ancient Roman man was 5'5 and average
>Roman woman 5'2, and being amused/relieved that I would have fit in fairly well
>on that regard. While, if you recall, the Celts, Slavs and Germanic tribes were
>guaranteed to stand out in a Roman crowd due to the fact that they averaged a
>head taller at least. . . even 2000 years ago. Subsequent 'melting-pots' have
>undoubtedly muddled average heights over the centuries in Europe as much as in
>america, while even today you have relatively isolated populations -- like my
>hometown -- with distinctly different averages.)
>
Poul Anderson, not a particularly large man, though taller than me,
told the story ((in an essay on what's wrong with Conan and other
similar characters)) of how he once had a chance to try on Henry
VIII's actual armour, in the Tower.
This was the armour of young Prince Hal, not the fat old man he became
-- a giant among men of his day, able to wrestle any man in his army
and beat him two out of three, etc.
((You ought to hear Poul's comments on the way most heroic-fantasy
writers write about horses and horsemanship...))
Poul had a tight squeeze getting into it...
Armorfiend
mike weber wrote:
> In his first "GOD, Inc" book, Jack Chalker mentions that people at the
> thos further up -- either because they choose to or can rerally only
> afford to eat a lot of starches and so on -- processed foods, macaroni
> and cheese, McDonalds burgers, etc.
>
> It is possible to be lower-middle class or a bit lower, above the
> poverty level, to be "properly nourished" and still -not- eat a
> particularly healthy diet. ((My own present weight problem illustrates
> this...))
>
> --
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
McDonalds class restaraunt... Simply because, at each rather small
McD's, you've got at least 3 people per shift... (although usually it's
4 or more)
Remember too, that the PRH has something like an 85% unemployment,
right? I just don't think that there are enough _workers_ to man those
restaraunts... I figure that instead, they have automated synthesizing
machines, that turn algae and some of its cousins into various
"lookalikes", with balanced vitamins, minerals, etc. While it'd still be
possible for folks to become fat by overeating, it'd be a lot harder,
too...
My main thought behind this is that beef's rather expensive to raise, as
are any animals, so they're going to be more expensive- and therefore
deemed "luxury foods"... Though the Dolists probably do get a certain
number of "luxury points", I can't see it as being enough for them to
eat real meat every day- because, if we remember, New Paris "Can't Even
Feed Itself", and has to import food... Which really must drive up the
price.
GTG
Greg Ewing
Good luck, Jeanne. I hope you find something soon.
Been unemployed, didn't like the depression that set in.
Greg Ewing
CRepublic
In article <357626b2...@news.mindspring.com>, emsh...@aol.com (mike
weber) writes:
>Armorfiend <g_a...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Yes, but what I was commenting on, was that these folks are living the
>>lives of the lower-middle class... I mean, granted, some of them might
>>be druggies or drunks, but the average guy is probably not. And so, he's
>>probably going to grow to a standard size, since he's not squandering
>>his money on expensive addictions (or even inexpensive ones)... Somehow,
>>I just dont see the stamps being used as currency, simply because
>>everybody's already got a surplus of them...
I could well be wrong here. But I seem to recall that 'Yu' described his
situation as a child once. Aparently the proles are incoraged to use
recreational drugs. Discoraged from gaining an eduaction. And I would supect
not encoraged to eat a balanced diet.
Gorg
Leo Sorel
Jeanne, I do know what you mean, having been laid off three times in the past
15 years, and so I do also know how easy it would be to manipulate the system
if I had wanted to.
None of what I had said before was meant as a disparagement of any particular
type of people, group, race, etc., etc., but, I was trying to point out how
easy it would be to lay back, say screw it and just basically let other people
carry the burden of society.
Navbuoy
In article <3575C083...@mindspring.com>, Armorfiend
<g_a...@mindspring.com> writes:
>Yes, but what I was commenting on, was that these folks are living the
>lives of the lower-middle class... I mean, granted, some of them might
>be druggies or drunks, but the average guy is probably not. And so, he's
>probably going to grow to a standard size, since he's not squandering
>his money on expensive addictions (or even inexpensive ones)... Somehow,
>I just dont see the stamps being used as currency, simply because
>everybody's already got a surplus of them...
>
>GTG
>
>
=====================================
Lower middle-class? I think perhaps that's an over-estimation. Remember when
Big D explains why Giscard's commissioner--what's-her-name, the gorgeous babe
who's fallen for him and vice-versa?--joined the Citizens Rights Union because
her sister was raped and murdered by a youth gang in "one of the worst Dolist
towers"? That sounds to me like a culture of violence ala the late-20th century
urban ghetto, not "lower middle-class."
Navbuoy
Armorfiend
Navbuoy wrote:
> =====================================
>
> Lower middle-class? I think perhaps that's an over-estimation. Remember when
> Big D explains why Giscard's commissioner--what's-her-name, the gorgeous babe
> who's fallen for him and vice-versa?--joined the Citizens Rights Union because
> her sister was raped and murdered by a youth gang in "one of the worst Dolist
> towers"? That sounds to me like a culture of violence ala the late-20th century
> urban ghetto, not "lower middle-class."
>
> Navbuoy
lower-middle class. Automatically. However, if they're being encouraged
to use drugs (as someone else mentioned), then the drugs are legal and
just part of the lifestyle... Probably don't cost much more than a beer.
The gangs are not so much a product of the dolist lifestyle/social
class, as they are the terminal boredom of the dolists... And, as those
who would have been police are either policing only the rich, or are on
the dole themselves, there's nobody to _stop_ the gangs.
So you get gangs that start origionally as teams for neighborhood
basketball, then wind up slaughtering one another over some triviality,
the survivors of the fight say, "hey, this is fun. And, I belong and
have responsibility to the gang! I don't get _that_ anywhere else!" So
they go out and terrorize the area, until rival gangs form, or posses
form, or militias, to kick the gangs away from whoever organised their
own vigilante squad, and so forth.
As long as there's no caring police, and no _other_ place for the
citizens to feel necessary, then this will continue, irrespective of the
lifestyle in which they are maintained.
The fact remains that these folks are already supplied with food and
pretty high-tech recreational equipment... However, as high-tech turns
low-tech with continued development, these guys are probably given the
paraphenalia of the lower-middle class...
Just my $.02
GTG
Tharsia
Mike Weber wrote:
>Poul Anderson, not a particularly large man, though taller than > me, told the
story ((in an essay on what's wrong with Conan and > other similar characters))
of how he once had a chance to try on > Henry VIII's actual armour, in the
Tower.
>
>This was the armour of young Prince Hal, not the fat old man he became
>-- a giant among men of his day, able to wrestle any man in his army and beat
him two out of three, etc.
>
>((You ought to hear Poul's comments on the way most heroic-fantasy writers
write about horses and horsemanship...))
>
>
>Poul had a tight squeeze getting into it...
>
I've read it. I've also seen indications that nobody ever, ever won against Hal
in anything, because it would have been a really poor, poor idea.
(At least if you wanted to stay upwardly mobile, or even mobile, period.)
I'm sorry to say this about somebody [Anderson] who is such a respected writer
and known for his medievalism, but his knowledge of horses is way, way worse
than my knowledge of astrophysics. I could (and have done before) spiel one
about horses, riding styles, mediaeval warfare and gravity for several pages,
but that would really be OT . . .
There's also armor of a guy who's 6'10 in the Tower. I've seen it.
Then there are the Masai . . .
;-)
mike weber
tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) wrote:
>I'm sorry to say this about somebody [Anderson] who is such a respected writer
>and known for his medievalism, but his knowledge of horses is way, way worse
>than my knowledge of astrophysics. I could (and have done before) spiel one
>about horses, riding styles, mediaeval warfare and gravity for several pages,
>but that would really be OT . . .
>
Actually, he was commenting on how many Conanist authors like to have
characters wearing nothing but a loincloth riding bareback. Horsehair
is -coarse-.
Also, he had something to say about the propensity of authors who
really ought to know better to always have the hero and his buddies
all riding side-by-side on fierce stallions.
And, of course, the fact that stallions can get real -interesting-
around menstruating women...
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
History doesn't always repeat itself -- sometimes it
just screams "Why don't you listen to what I'm telling
you?" and lets fly with a club. -- JWCjr
Robert A. Woodward
> tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) wrote:
>
>
> >I'm sorry to say this about somebody [Anderson] who is such a respected
writer
> >and known for his medievalism, but his knowledge of horses is way, way worse
> >than my knowledge of astrophysics. I could (and have done before) spiel one
> >about horses, riding styles, mediaeval warfare and gravity for several pages,
> >but that would really be OT . . .
> >
> Actually, he was commenting on how many Conanist authors like to have
> characters wearing nothing but a loincloth riding bareback. Horsehair
> is -coarse-.
>
And at a gallop all day as well. Tolkien should have reconsidered having
Shadowfax (who wasn't actually a horse IMHO, but was a equine of a
different color). A goodly number of authors haven't picked up how special
Shadowfax was.
<snip>
Tharsia
>tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) wrote:
>
>
>>I'm sorry to say this about somebody [Anderson] who is such a >> respected
writer and known for his medievalism, but his >> knowledge of horses is way,
way worse than my knowledge of >> astrophysics. I could (and have done before)
spiel one
>>about horses, riding styles, mediaeval warfare and gravity for >> several
pages, but that would really be OT . . .
>>
>Actually, he was commenting on how many Conanist authors like > to have
characters wearing nothing but a loincloth riding > bareback. Horsehair is
-coarse-.
>
ought to know better to always have the hero and his > buddies all riding
side-by-side on fierce stallions.
>
>And, of course, the fact that stallions can get real -interesting-
>around menstruating women...
>
>--
><mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
Well, like I said, I did read the essay. And although I personally have no
inclination to ride in anything but sturdy pants and equally sturdy boots, I
know plenty of people who are happy to ride at least barelegged, in swimsuits
or shorts. The major objection is that if you've got a saddle, you're going to
end up with dents and pinches, and if you're riding bareback, you'll end up
filthy. Horsehair isn't all that much coarser than dog (some horses are much
softer than some dogs, in fact) and, well, the first famous equitation expert,
Xenophon, (he was a student of Plato's and was the guy who wrote the Anabasis,
which is the basis for Andre Norton's _Star Guard_) was of the opinion that
riding in the classical Greek style -- ie, bareback and naked -- gave the most
security as sticky, sweaty horsehide would stick best to sticky, sweaty skin.
He was speaking from first-hand experience, too. (Unlike many classical
techniques, it's not something that's been put to modern experiment that I know
of.)
The odd thing about stallions is that, unless there are mares about, they will
generally get along fine. In the wild, young males ejected from the herd form
their own gangs, 'bachelor herds,' as they are termed technically, and
cooperate without problems. It's only when they are in a position to compete
for mates that there's a problem. Thus the Lippizan stallions perform and are
stabled together without any difficulty; the breeding farms are quite some
distance away, outside the city altogether.
I've heard the stallion story; after spending most of my life around horse
people, and knowing women who own/train stallions, and riding one myself for a
summer -- it's a story.
Many stallions are badly behaved, because they're not brought up properly and
are not used as working animals -- just expected to look pretty in a show ring
and make foals. They also have a problem in that they're often 'expected' to
behave badly and so get away with more, or that people are more scared of them
(because of course they're fiercer) and so they get away with more.
OTOH, any 1000+ pound animal -- or rather, _any animal_ that is allowed to
become a spoiled brat is a menace to itself, other animals, and human beings.
There are a lot of mean, dangerous geldings and mares out there, but people
tend to notice this less or to regard as an 'individual' thing, rather than
what you'd expect from any large, undisciplined creature. Overindulgence and
abuse are both equally likely to make wretched horses to be around, and a horse
that has been abused by a male is likely to be scared/hate of males; by a
female, of females. (This is true of dogs, too.)
In brief, horses aren't stupid as a species -- they have the same priorities as
dogs (ie, food, companionship, and fun) and their boredom threshold is fairly
low. Their idea of fun is much the same as your household cats' -- run back and
forth and slam into each other, or just bug out and run like heck with their
ears pinned back for the hell of it.
Like your average three-year-old human, they can figure out what bugs you and
yank your chain very quickly, get out of work, get sympathy and treats --
though, like most first-time parents, many riders are unaware of this. The more
affection and activity they receive in their earliest years, the more
affectionate and outgoing they will be throughout life. Like people, the more
excercise they get, the more they can do, and the healthier they are for longer
lives. Trained endurance racers and Kashmiri or Afghani mounts can go up to 50
miles in a day, regularly. (IIRC the record for jumping, vertically, is over 8
feet now.)
A horse who is mentally and physically challenged and at the same time
well-treated will come to look forward to 'work' and regard it as play, whether
it is pulling massive blocks of cement, running down young cattle, jumping
fences taller than itself, or traveling cross-country. Given correct care and
regular maintainance a horse is no more fragile than an automobile, which also
can suffer devastating, expensive injuries without warning.
There are many horses out there who hate work, hate people, hate everything --
just as the same can be said for human beings; usually for horses the cause
lies in wretched training, abuse, and incompetent management. A good horse is
as much fun to work with and to see in action as a good sheepdog. Treat a horse
as you would a thousand-pound dog or cat -- with friendly, respectful,
authority -- and you'll get along well.
<end of abbreviated spiel>
I agree that most writers don't know enough to put horses into the story, and
deal with horses about as realisitcally as they do _airplanes_. (_Air Force
One_, anyone?) However, the Poul Anderson route, to regard them simply as
annoyingly bad substitutes for motor vehicles, is what annoyed me second worst
of all in David Eddings' books. It isn't as though horsemanship were a lost
art, for Pete's sake. There's plenty of literature easily found, even if you do
live in a city. (And if you live in a city, you probably have a mounted police
force you could talk to . . .)
As for the other points in the essay, well, there are definitely problems in
the genre, but there are problems in the essay too.
Mary Gentle and I have also discussed the inherent problems in the setting up
of the 'sword' tests -- a free-swinging piece of meat is not comparable to a
200 lb man's neck. (Frex : take a piece of paper, dangle it loosely, and poke
at it with a fork. It'll bounce off the tines. Then hold it so it's more or
less rigid, and you'll be able to hole it.) Various other historical groups
have made experiments and come to other conclusions; the chief problem is a
shortage of volunteers . . .
<g>
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> From: tha...@aol.com (Tharsia)
> Date: 07 Jun 1998 02:46:39 GMT
>
> I've heard the stallion story; after spending most of my life around horse
> people, and knowing women who own/train stallions, and riding one myself for a
> summer -- it's a story.
Well, they will attempt to treat a menstruating woman like a mare in season,
until firmly corrected.
Mares lead the herd, stallions protect the herd.
> Many stallions are badly behaved, because they're not brought up properly and
> are not used as working animals -- just expected to look pretty in a show ring
> and make foals. They also have a problem in that they're often 'expected' to
> behave badly and so get away with more, or that people are more scared of them
> (because of course they're fiercer) and so they get away with more.
Not on *my* farm, they don't.
The key is getting to them while they're still small. Correct the bad behavior
early and you have much less problems down the road. We have a 17h
Spanish-Norman stallion that is *extremely* well-behaved, and even stays inside
17g 3-strand electric fence.
(Of course, it helps that the wire is charged with a 50-mile "weed burning"
charger, but it is a rare day that Sol is even in a mood to test the fence.)
> OTOH, any 1000+ pound animal -- or rather, _any animal_ that is allowed to
> become a spoiled brat is a menace to itself, other animals, and human beings.
Amen!
> A horse who is mentally and physically challenged and at the same time
> well-treated will come to look forward to 'work' and regard it as play, whether
> it is pulling massive blocks of cement, running down young cattle, jumping
> fences taller than itself, or traveling cross-country.
Or war-training, for that matter. Imagine a 1200-1500 pound horse acting like a
dog that just saw you pick up a ball/stick when it sees armor and swords.
> There are many horses out there who hate work, hate people, hate everything --
> just as the same can be said for human beings; usually for horses the cause
> lies in wretched training, abuse, and incompetent management.
Amen again. My fiance Kacci specializes in re-training horses like this. She's
good at it, but she's a masochist.
For grins and giggles, I'll add in at this point a copy of a *very* old post I
made describing war-training to a bunch in the SCA.
As a note, we train horses to fight "Markland rules" not SCA rules, which means
the armor is real, but the weapons (boffer swords) are rattan sticks wrapped with
at least 2 inches of soft foam and duct tape, except for thrown weapons which are
completely foam wrapped in duct tape.
--------------Copied item follows--------------------------
> It's just that the *East Kingdom* (and thus AEthelmearc) has not been
> very active in the equestrian arts.
>
> However, you are correct that we do not do the "martial" activities
> (jousting and such), but things like tilting at rings and such are
> very common.
Which is why my fiance does not participate in the SCA. Something about
wasting six hours and $100 in gas trailering horses to do something she can do
at home.
Some background, since I am in the process of moving to AEthelmarc:
My fiance and I train horses for battle reenactments. Depending on the
particular horse, the maneuvers we train them for include jousting passes,
mounted man-to-man fights, jumping shield walls, and mounted vs ground
fighter encounters.
A typical demo of mounted vs ground goes like this:
Me as the ground fighter (aka the loser B-)= ) in armor, my fiance on her
appoloosa stallion, also in armor, each of us armed with boffers. Three or
four passing attacks where we cross swords, then a pressed attack where the
horse gets in on the fun. Horse grabs top of my shield and forces it down out
of position, horseman clocks me over the head and I die. Or the horse ducks
beneath my shield to try and do the same thing, I drop my shield down to
protect the lower part of my body, leaving my head unprotected, horseman
clocks me over the head and I die. If I'm *really* inattentive, the horse has
been known to grab the boffer and disarm me. Again, I die.
Or, with my fiance on *my* horse (what loyalty), we do three or four passing
attacks as before, then on the fourth or fifth pass I fail my morale check,
turn and run. This is a demonstration of what happens when a ground-pounder
tries to run from a horse: the ground-pounder turns into ground chuck. I die
yet again.
Notice that the guy on the horse always wins? B-)= And in this case, if I'm
supposed to die and I don't, my draft mare has been known to "help" me remember
by putting her shoulder in the middle of my back. I'm here to tell you that dirt
does *not* taste very good. . .
When the app gets older and settles down, we'll gradually introduce live steel
(blunted and bated) to this for a good show.
Before I go on, let me point out that even in the off-season, we do these
drills with the horses two or three times a month. If we're building up to a
demo, we're doing this up to five times per week for the six weeks before.
This is not something that can be done casually. It's a lot of work
(especially for the guy who's always dying).
We treat this as a game, though the truth of the matter is that we're training
war horses. Those of you with dogs know the reaction a dog has when you pick
up a ball or something to play catch. Imagine a thousand-pound animal with
the same reaction when we bring out the armor and boffer swords. Normally, we
use these drills as a reward for doing other boring activities like riding
lessons and dressage practice.
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
Don't Tread On Me
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet_
-----------------End Copied Item-------------------------
Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Are you ready for Y2K? Read "Time Bomb 2000" by Ed Yourdon
Abuses by the BATF http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
Darwin Prevention Society: "We keep evolution from happening."
J. Otto Tennant
"Greg Ewing" <gew...@cet.com> writes:
Indeed, I add my good wishes.
(I have to add that for a couple of months this year, my former employer
paid me a princely wage (seriously) to set up a home office and
essentially wait around for the phone to ring. I tried to keep busy at
essentially useless tasks, but it was driving me nuts. I had known
before that I have a drinking problem; but keeping the bottle in the
closet until 5:00 P.M. became a real problem.)
(They thought they were unhappy to see me quit, and we arranged a
consulting contract. In the month since I've left, I've gotten one call
by answering machine; and the odds are real good I won't charge them for
a few minutes conversation tomorrow. I'll bet they are real happy now.)
The best thing one can have in the world is productive work, and it is a
blessing if one enjoys it. (The work I now have is productive and fun,
even if the crew I'm working with is the most difficult few people I've
ever had to deal with. (Even my "boss" at this job, who is a Brother
Mason, is not the most balanced person I've ever worked with; on the
other hand, his particular brand of imbalance is about the same as
mine.)
(Another very seriously bad thing about working at home is that the cats
(in my case, but others may have more intelligent dependents) think it
to be the greatest thing since mouse flavoured cat food. I'm home, and
therefore I should be petting them. At this instant, Magnificat is
attempting to put her head under my right hand --- which makes typing
awkwrda.)
--
J.Otto Tennant jo...@pobox.com
Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit.
Charter Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
J. Otto Tennant
tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) writes:
[... I edit out bunches, indicated by [...] ...}
>>tha...@aol.com (Tharsia) wrote:
[...]
>In brief, horses aren't stupid as a species -- they have the same priorities as
>dogs (ie, food, companionship, and fun) and their boredom threshold is fairly
>low. Their idea of fun is much the same as your household cats' -- run back and
>forth and slam into each other, or just bug out and run like heck with their
>ears pinned back for the hell of it.
I disagree: horses are stupid as a species. However, requiring
vegetation somewhat more developed than a cow or a sheep, they are a wee
bit brighter than the average sheep (which isn't much of a reach.)
Horses, having been "domesticated" later than sheep, and, having a
rather higher perspective on the environment than sheep, do tend to be a
bit more aware of environmental threats than does a sheep. My Lord is
My Shepherd, which isn't a complement but surely realistic.
> Like your average three-year-old human, they can figure out what bugs you and
>yank your chain very quickly, get out of work, get sympathy and treats --
>though, like most first-time parents, many riders are unaware of this.
When I was first set upon a horse (at the behest of my blessed ex-wife),
I assumed that the horse and I could have an intelligent and productive
conversation. Indeed, I, personally, had no problem with the animal
browsing on the local leaves. I had no particular desire to go anywhere
(remember, this was my ex-wife's idea.) Indeed, I was rather more
interested in what the horse considered to be tasty.
As the horse was browsing, I began to wonder if beef tastes different if
fed on Pioneer Hy-Bred Corn or some other brand. In fact, I also
started wondering about the taste of horse; and whether it would matter
of it were fed on oak leaves or linden leaves.
But ...
>...................................................................... The more
>affection and activity they receive in their earliest years, the more
>affectionate and outgoing they will be throughout life. Like people, the more
>excercise they get, the more they can do, and the healthier they are for longer
>lives. Trained endurance racers and Kashmiri or Afghani mounts can go up to 50
>miles in a day, regularly. (IIRC the record for jumping, vertically, is over 8
>feet now.)
I have seen a lady of my acquaintance work with her horses.
These animals, in my opinion, are large and intractable. But one of her
Arabians, when she puts a bridle (I'm not sure that's the word) on him,
prefixes his obedience by nuzzling her. She is a little girl, and it is
instructive to see this huge animal obeying her. (He would take my hand
off, by preference, even holding a carrot; that miserable animal wants
both.)
>A horse who is mentally and physically challenged and at the same time
>well-treated will come to look forward to 'work' and regard it as play, whether
>it is pulling massive blocks of cement, running down young cattle, jumping
>fences taller than itself, or traveling cross-country. Given correct care and
>regular maintainance a horse is no more fragile than an automobile, which also
>can suffer devastating, expensive injuries without warning.
What I want is a horse --- well, actually I don't want one, but in the
context of someone wanting to "know" a horse --- who understands that I
don't much care who eats what, but that I'd like to get home sometime.
I really do not think that horses are very bright; but experience has
proven that they are brighter than I am.
[...]
>................................................................. Treat a horse
>as you would a thousand-pound dog or cat -- with friendly, respectful,
>authority -- and you'll get along well.
(I simply cannot imagine a half-ton housecat. The only reason I'm not
"meat" to my cats is that, despite their best attempts, I'm not yet
breakfast.)
Tharsia
<snip very interesting SCA training>
We treat this as a game, though the truth of the matter is that we're training
war horses. Those of you with dogs know the reaction a dog has when you pick
up a ball or something to play catch. Imagine a thousand-pound animal with the
same reaction when we bring out the armor and boffer swords. Normally, we use
these drills as a reward for doing other boring activities like riding
lessons and dressage practice.
Frank Ney EMT-A N4ZHG LPVa NRA GOA CCRKBA LEAA JPFO 'M-O-U-S-E'
Don't Tread On Me
"Apparently on New Texas, killing a politician was not _malum in se_, and was
_malum prohibitorum_ only to the extent that what the politician got was in
excess of what he deserved."
H. Beam Piper, _Lone Star Planet_
================================================
Sounds like a lot of fun -- what disappointed me most about our local SCA group
(before it seceded and turned into Paintball wars) was that they had no
interest in warhorses (or medieval music, or cooking, or . . . which is why
they seceded ultimately).
I've tried to explain to people that cavalry in fact was a very practical
fighting force (Why did the Parthians and cataphractii do so well? Er . . .)
but it's almost impossible to people whose ideas of knights come from stupid
movies and cartoons. Similar to trying to convince people that the stirrups are
_not_ what keeps you from falling off. OTOH, same people are usually a bit .
. . shall we say, reluctant? to approach a mounted policeman.
(I'll never forget the time my brother realized that, quote, "You actually put
your HAND in its mouth? But -- but -- look at those TEETH!" I got a bit more
respect after that . . .)
My first _confirmation_ that what I felt sure was not merely romantic
nonsense, came at Trooping the Colors in 1988, when I watched the entire Horse
Guard, at close range, and realized that indeed, if circumstances were more --
chaotic, and the cavalry put against the crowd afoot, the results would be not
altogether favoring the majority.
Anderson's dismissal of horses as efficient war-vehicles is, IIRC, based on a
local SCA group attempting to take old trail horses and charge them at each
other, without any 'basic training.' That isn't how green kids survive the
melee and tournee, and ignores the fact that anybody -- horse or human --
suddenly flung into a situation that violates all the known paradigms and rules
is not going to react well.
Introduced to it properly, there's no reason that it shouldn't be as much fun
as polo. (Which, I gather, Ralph Lauren claims to have trademarked, so perhaps
I should put a (tm) after it.)
"He saith among the trumpets, Aha!" etc.
Tharsia/aol.com (aka joan barger; standardize address to reply)
--Whoever does not study history is doomed to repeat it
"On the other hand, gentlemen . . . suppose we gave a war and EVERYBODY came?"
-- Jules Pfeifer
Tharsia
>
>I disagree: horses are stupid as a species. However, requiring
> vegetation somewhat more developed than a cow or a sheep, > they are a wee
bit brighter than the average sheep (which isn't > much of a reach.)
No, this isn't that the _vegetation_ is more developed, it's that they haven't
forgotten that things _eat_ you while you're eating. Look at deer, who are even
more 'paranoid' than horses. (My definition of 'not stupid' is 'making the
appropriate response based on the evidence you have at hand, even if you happen
to be wrong,' and there are plenty of dogs I consider individually stupid, but
as a species I think they're about the same. I don't consider 'willing to do
tricks' the same as 'smart', and I don't consider 'refuses to cooperate' the
same as 'smart' the way the mule people do.)
> Horses, having been "domesticated" later than sheep, and, > having a rather
higher perspective on the environment than > sheep, do tend to be a bit more
aware of environmental threats > than does a sheep. My Lord is My Shepherd,
which isn't a > complement but surely realistic.
Sheep haven't been bred to be smart either, not in most parts of the world. It
makes them harder to catch, and you need to catch them. That's what a) goats
and b) sheepdogs are for.
>These animals, in my opinion, are large and intractable.
For you, they are, because they know they can get away with it. I have had some
interesting situations, (the 'fast-forward/reverse' story is funny -- in
retrospect) and undoubtedly will have more as I am (now -- not 3 years ago)
always willing to ride something bigger and more experienced than I am used to.
(Someday, God willing, I'll have the money to go to Ulan Batar and ride with
the Kazakh tribesmen and their eagles.)
> But one of her Arabians, when she puts a bridle (I'm not sure
> that's the word) on him, prefixes his obedience by nuzzling her.
Yup, you got it :-) bridle for riding -- metal bit in the mouth, unless it's a
hackamore; halter (no bit, just straps & rings) for leading around and tying up
to brush.
> She is a little girl, and it is instructive to see this huge animal
> obeying her.
That's because he 1) respects her, and 2) -- not unconnected -- likes her. In
fact, as far as I know, equitation is the only field of sports wherein men and
women compete against each other on the top levels. That's because, if you are
reasonably fit, you can ride a horse, regardless of how large or muscular you
are (though not everyone is suited for each other; either of you could be too
tall or too short.) The competition is a matter of teamwork -- you the rider
provide the analytical work, are the 'navigator', and you also provide the
balance, the corrections needed, as 'DCC.' While the horse provides the
physical strength, and also in-the-field analysis and corrections. Ideally, you
both help each other to reach the same goal, very actively both in mind and
body.
Of course, sometimes you fall off, too ;-}
> (He would take my hand off, by preference, even holding a
> carrot; that miserable animal wants both.)
That's certainly possible, but it could be that 1) he's just snatchy with
treats; many animals (dogs included, and my cats, too) are unless sternly
corrected. (For that matter, some of the kids in my family are as well.) It
could also be 2) that he isn't seeing them very well, because of the way
horses' eyes are set; they can't really see what's under their chins. (Shoot,
neither can I.) This is why it's important to a) hold treats out on the flat
of your hand and b) teach your horses to be gentle taking them. (It's all fun
and games until somebody loses a finger . . . )
The most terrifying and yet humbling horse experience I've had was when the
large, grumpy, elderly, ill-trained horse I'd been riding suddenly realized
that I wasn't telling him to go-and-stop at the same time, but that I wanted
him to run *slowly*, and then that this was *interesting & fun* and we started
elementary dressage, and as I was taking off his bridle, he reached down and
took my fingers in his mouth and just held them for a minute. He's old, but his
incisors are still as long as my thumb. I didn't dare do anything, I was afraid
that he thought I had a carrot, and then he let go and nudged me in a friendly
way, and I remembered that my brother's dog does exactly the same thing when
he's feeling particularly affectionate.
I have a friend who does a lot of obedience work with her dog and reads on it a
great deal. Most of it (not the high squeaky voice thing) works perfectly on
horses, which indicates that there is less mental difference between them than
one would at first expect. In fact, I know of three animals which all have
domestic and wild counterparts and are social in varying degrees -- and the
more I learn, the more astonished I am to see how much dogs/wolves, cats/lions,
and horses feral and domestic have in common.
Then again --
the three cardinal rules of horsemanship, I have concluded, are --
1) Never give an order that you know will not be obeyed.
2) Never punish your horse for doing what you told him to do. (which can
also be phrased as,
Never put your horse in a no-win situation.)
3) Never, never lose your temper.
Hmmm . . .
Tharsia
> Treat a horse as you would a thousand-pound dog or cat -- with friendly,
respectful, authority -- and you'll get along well.
>
>(I simply cannot imagine a half-ton housecat.
Ah, you definitely need to read the Prydain Chronicles we were discussing
earlier. The problem of what to do with a half-ton cat (sorcerously enhanced
from a small, British-style wildcat similar to the American bobcat but more
like a housecat) is an important part of the story in volume 3, as is
convincing it not to make breakfast out of the heroes . . .
> The only reason I'm not "meat" to my cats is that, despite their
> best attempts, I'm not yet breakfast.)
No, this is just how they interact -- watch some of the videos of lions
'playing.' You just have to bite 'em back! <g>
aRJay
In an article using recycled electrons Tharsia wrote :-
>I've tried to explain to people that cavalry in fact was a very practical
>fighting force (Why did the Parthians and cataphractii do so well? Er . . .)
>but it's almost impossible to people whose ideas of knights come from stupid
>movies and cartoons. Similar to trying to convince people that the stirrups are
> _not_ what keeps you from falling off. OTOH, same people are usually a bit .
>. . shall we say, reluctant? to approach a mounted policeman.
>(I'll never forget the time my brother realized that, quote, "You actually put
>your HAND in its mouth? But -- but -- look at those TEETH!" I got a bit more
>respect after that . . .)
>
>My first _confirmation_ that what I felt sure was not merely romantic
>nonsense, came at Trooping the Colors in 1988, when I watched the entire Horse
>Guard, at close range, and realized that indeed, if circumstances were more --
>chaotic, and the cavalry put against the crowd afoot, the results would be not
>altogether favoring the majority.
Sort of following on from this. The above reminded me of some very old
newsreal footage of a football match (cup final IIRC). Where for some
reason several thousand (it looked like) of the croud had spilled over
onto the pitch and one policeman mounted on a white horse was steadily
pushing them all back into the stands.
--
aRJay
Willie@whitehouse.gov Chuck Todd
On 09 Jun 1998 05:55:36 GMT, Tharsia wrote:
:>
:>I have a friend who does a lot of obedience work with her dog and reads on it a
:>great deal. Most of it (not the high squeaky voice thing) works perfectly on
:>horses, which indicates that there is less mental difference between them than
:>one would at first expect.
You should check out what the translation of horse is in 16's century Plains
American Native.
Elk Dog.
Chuck Todd
P.S. I bet you cannot guess My Race?
Kevin Stall
That's nothing, the navy said I was 6'1", the Army said I was 6'5 1/2".
go...@mst.csiro.au wrote:
> reading OBS, on being intro'ed to HH, her height is described as 180 cm. In
> HOE her height is given as 190 cm.
>
> what about giving the editor who let this pass a red shirt?
>
> gossix
>
> -=================================================-
>
> military officer evalution-
> This Officer should go far..... and the sooner the better.
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> From: tha...@aol.com (Tharsia)
> Date: 09 Jun 1998 05:59:36 GMT
>
> > Treat a horse as you would a thousand-pound dog or cat -- with friendly,
> respectful, authority -- and you'll get along well.
> >
> >(I simply cannot imagine a half-ton housecat.
>
> Ah, you definitely need to read the Prydain Chronicles we were discussing
> earlier. The problem of what to do with a half-ton cat (sorcerously enhanced
> from a small, British-style wildcat similar to the American bobcat but more
> like a housecat) is an important part of the story in volume 3, as is
> convincing it not to make breakfast out of the heroes . . .
>
> > The only reason I'm not "meat" to my cats is that, despite their
> > best attempts, I'm not yet breakfast.)
>
> No, this is just how they interact -- watch some of the videos of lions
> 'playing.' You just have to bite 'em back! <g>
Just like wolves, it's a pecking order/dominance thing.
I should know. The same fiance that introduced me to horses adopted an 80%
arctic wolf and a coyote/husky. It's rather fun, aside from the occasional
desire of Cheyenne (the wolf) to come between us in bed. Her usual sleeping
spot is at the foot of the bed, useful in winter. (I can see people going "ick"
as I write this...)
And we haven't had to house-train a puppy yet. Of course, if *you* had
something twenty times your size go "grrr" at you every time you squatted
inside, you'd be house-trained within a week, too.
Tharsia
>Sort of following on from this. The above reminded me of some very old
>newsreal footage of a football match (cup final IIRC). Where for some
>reason several thousand (it looked like) of the croud had spilled over
>onto the pitch and one policeman mounted on a white horse was steadily
>pushing them all back into the stands.
>--
>aRJay
>
>
Horses have the opposite effect, in person, from tree-cats -- at least to
tree-cats prior to the telecasting of 'Maccabeus, part 1,' blooper reel.
It's odd how modern people who sneer at the mounted knight as an idea, suddenly
develop prudence when confronted with one!.
:-)
BTW, re this & some ironic remarks on Mr. Ney's surname -- has anyone here seen
'Waterloo' with Christopher Plummer (and a lot of other good actors) by Di
Laurentis? Now that's one 19th c war movie I'd like to see on the big screen --
forget GWTW!
Tharsia/aol.com (aka joan barger; standardize address to reply)
--Whoever does not study history is doomed to repeat it
"The idiot who praises with enthusiastic tone
every century but this & every nation but his own --"
(W.S. Gilbert)
Armorfiend
Kevin Stall wrote:
>
> That's nothing, the navy said I was 6'1", the Army said I was 6'5 1/2".
GTG
aRJay
In an article using recycled electrons Tharsia wrote :-
>>Sort of following on from this. The above reminded me of some very old
>>newsreal footage of a football match (cup final IIRC). Where for some
>>reason several thousand (it looked like) of the croud had spilled over
>>onto the pitch and one policeman mounted on a white horse was steadily
>>pushing them all back into the stands.
>>--
>>aRJay
>>
>>
>
>Horses have the opposite effect, in person, from tree-cats -- at least to
>tree-cats prior to the telecasting of 'Maccabeus, part 1,' blooper reel.
>
>It's odd how modern people who sneer at the mounted knight as an idea, suddenly
>develop prudence when confronted with one!.
>:-)
>
>BTW, re this & some ironic remarks on Mr. Ney's surname -- has anyone here seen
>'Waterloo' with Christopher Plummer (and a lot of other good actors) by Di
>Laurentis? Now that's one 19th c war movie I'd like to see on the big screen --
>forget GWTW!
>
Been there done that when it came out Derby where I live had a full
width Cinemascope screened cinema. The film was quiet nice on that. Put
it another way it is magnificent like that.
--
aRJay
Tharsia
>
>You should check out what the translation of horse is in 16's century Plains
>American Native.
>
> Elk Dog.
>
>Chuck Todd
>
>P.S. I bet you cannot guess My Race?
>
>
Er . . . 16th c. Plains American??? <gd&rlh>
It's funny -- I'd come across various translations of American words for
'horse' which incorporated 'dog,' and always assumed that it was because the
basic American transport animal, prior to the reintroduction of horses, _was_
the dog. (Sort of like everything being a robin, or 'near--' in sf.)
Then, when I finally moved to the country, I realized that it was a lot more
accurate descriptively, than some of the near-whatsits we have across the
globe, like robins.
The elk part is interesting too; we have moose around here frequently, even
downtown (one ran through my parents' yard not too long ago, another was
resting in someone's lawn) and they're wierdly graceful, scarily fast, and very
dangerous, though we've not had a moose casualty in town in 20 years that i
know of.
However, they will go out of their way to attack dogsleds, simply because they
can't tell the diff between a dogteam and a wolfpack. I find the assumption
that 'herbivore'='sweet & harmless' to be tedious at best . . .
Navbuoy
I've followed (and enjoyed) the thread on horses, their intelligence, and their
proper employment and training. Now I want to ask a question of our equine
experts: how well has *Big Dave* done with horses in his two fantasy novels to
date? I know he knows at least one person who raises Arabians, and who, Dave
says rather wryly, looked at at him askance when he described what he had in
mind for his "coursers" in terms of intelligence, endurance, loyalty, etc., and
said, more or less, "That already exists. We call it an Arabian."
FWIW, I have wormed out of the Big D one thing which (I suspect) will come as a
surprise only to the hradani and the Sothoii--to wit, the thing that makes the
coursers work is very much the same thing that makes the HRADANI work; both are
tied directly into the "magic field" by reason of genetic engineering practiced
upon them at the time of the Fall of Kontovar. Now, am I the ONLY one to whom
this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride? Hmmmmm?
Navbouy
Chuckg
Navbuoy wrote in message <199806110453...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
<snip>
>FWIW, I have wormed out of the Big D one thing which (I suspect) will come as a
>surprise only to the hradani and the Sothoii--to wit, the thing that makes the
>coursers work is very much the same thing that makes the HRADANI work; both are
>tied directly into the "magic field" by reason of genetic engineering practiced
>upon them at the time of the Fall of Kontovar. Now, am I the ONLY one to whom
>this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride? Hmmmmm?
What, after Bahzell spent valuable 'screen time' in book one thinking to himself
about how the only horse in the world that could possibly carry him was a
Sothoii courser?
Nope.
--
Chuckg
Brom O'Berin
nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy) wrote:
>FWIW, I have wormed out of the Big D one thing which (I suspect) will come as a
>surprise only to the hradani and the Sothoii--to wit, the thing that makes the
>coursers work is very much the same thing that makes the HRADANI work; both are
>tied directly into the "magic field" by reason of genetic engineering practiced
>upon them at the time of the Fall of Kontovar. Now, am I the ONLY one to whom
>this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride? Hmmmmm?
does this remind anyone else of ... Companions?
Brom
Chuckg
Brom O'Berin wrote in message <357fdca8...@news.erols.com>...
No, because Companions are sentient guardian spirits, and Sothoii coursers are
merely magically-engineered and slightly-smarter horses, but still animals.
It *does*, however, remind me of Shin'a'in battlesteeds.
==
Chuckg
mike weber
Sometime around Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:41:05 GMT, dse...@erols.com (Brom
O'Berin) opined:
>nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy) wrote:
>
>>Now, am I the ONLY one to whom
>>this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride? Hmmmmm?
>
>does this remind anyone else of ... Companions?
>
Nope. More of the Paladins of Gird's chargers.
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
Life's a game where they're bound to beat you, and time's
a trick they can turn to cheat you -- and we only waste
it anyway, that's the hell of it -- Paul Williams
Mark Smith
mike weber (emsh...@aol.com) wrote:
: Sometime around Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:41:05 GMT, dse...@erols.com (Brom
: O'Berin) opined:
: >nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy) wrote:
: >
: >does this remind anyone else of ... Companions?
: >
: Nope. More of the Paladins of Gird's chargers.
That's what!
Mark
--
=========================================================================
UNIX IS user friendly, it's just very choosy about who it calls a friend!
=========================================================================
Francis A. Ney, Jr
> From: nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy)
> Date: 11 Jun 1998 04:53:17 GMT
>
> I've followed (and enjoyed) the thread on horses, their intelligence, and their
> proper employment and training. Now I want to ask a question of our equine
> experts: how well has *Big Dave* done with horses in his two fantasy novels to
> date? I know he knows at least one person who raises Arabians, and who, Dave
> says rather wryly, looked at at him askance when he described what he had in
> mind for his "coursers" in terms of intelligence, endurance, loyalty, etc., and
> said, more or less, "That already exists. We call it an Arabian."
And she's right.
The problem is an Arabian couldn't come *near* to carrying Bahzell -- his feet
would drag the ground.
You'd need something with an Arabian's temperment and the size of a Shire.
In earth terms, that horse just doesn't exist. . .
Tharsia
Well, the problem is that there isn't an Arabian as big as the Sothoii
coursers. Andalusians come close (they're the warhorses you see in Rubens
melodramas) but they don't have the wiry endurance of desert animals. Arabians
have been bred up from what they used to be, but they're still fairly small,
light animals.
>FWIW, I have wormed out of the Big D one thing which (I suspect) will come as
a surprise only to the hradani and the Sothoii--to wit, the thing that makes
the coursers work is very much the same thing that makes the HRADANI work; both
>are tied directly into the "magic field" by reason of genetic engineering
practiced upon them at the time of the Fall of Kontovar. Now, am I the ONLY one
to whom this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride?
Hmmmmm?
>
>Navbouy
Hey, I was thinking that too!
Great minds and all that . . ..
Robert A. Woodward
In article <VA.0000082...@access.digex.net>,
cro...@access.digex.net wrote:
> > From: nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy)
> > Date: 11 Jun 1998 04:53:17 GMT
> >
> > I've followed (and enjoyed) the thread on horses, their intelligence,
and their
> > proper employment and training. Now I want to ask a question of our equine
> > experts: how well has *Big Dave* done with horses in his two fantasy
novels to
> > date? I know he knows at least one person who raises Arabians, and
who, Dave
> > says rather wryly, looked at at him askance when he described what he had in
> > mind for his "coursers" in terms of intelligence, endurance, loyalty,
etc., and
> > said, more or less, "That already exists. We call it an Arabian."
>
> And she's right.
>
> The problem is an Arabian couldn't come *near* to carrying Bahzell --
his feet
> would drag the ground.
>
> You'd need something with an Arabian's temperment and the size of a Shire.
>
> In earth terms, that horse just doesn't exist. . .
Not only an Arabian's temperment, but its proportions as well. Such a
horse can not exist - inverse square law strikes again. It is an actual
problem with race horses; their legs bones are right on the ragged edge of
being too thin for their weight (and occasionally, they break).
Greg Ewing
Reference please? Good book?
Greg
Chuckg wrote in message <357fe...@news6.kcdata.com>...
>
>Brom O'Berin wrote in message <357fdca8...@news.erols.com>...
>>nav...@aol.com (Navbuoy) wrote:
>>
>>>FWIW, I have wormed out of the Big D one thing which (I suspect) will
come as
>a
>>>surprise only to the hradani and the Sothoii--to wit, the thing that
makes the
>>>coursers work is very much the same thing that makes the HRADANI work;
both
>are
>>>tied directly into the "magic field" by reason of genetic engineering
>practiced
>>>upon them at the time of the Fall of Kontovar. Now, am I the ONLY one to
whom
>>>this suggests that Bahzell is about to get his very own pony to ride?
Hmmmmm?
>>
>>does this remind anyone else of ... Companions?
>
>
Greg Ewing
I must be further out of touch in my readings than I though. I completely
miss the reference. ???????????
Greg
Mark Smith wrote in message <6losqd$dae$1...@leopard.it.wsu.edu>...
Mark Smith
Greg Ewing (gew...@cet.com) wrote:
: I must be further out of touch in my readings than I though. I completely
: miss the reference. ???????????
Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth moon. This may be found as a single
volume of the same name or a trilogy Sheepfarmers Daughter, Divided
Allegience and Oath of Gold.
It's a very good fantasy IMO. You can hear the D&D dice rattling in
the back ground some times, but it's good all the same. BTW, Moon
spent some time in the Marines.
Chuckg
Greg Ewing wrote in message <6lqqgu$fh2$1...@legends.cet.com>...
>Reference please? Good book?
*Great* books -- but there are rather a lot of them. Despite this not being the
alt.books.mercedes-lackey newsgroup, I'm still going to ramble on at length, so
please bear with me folks.
These references were from Mercedes Lackey's "Valdemar" universe, which has had
several separate trilogies connected by one large and very well-knit over-arcing
multi-generational storyline.
There were two main story lines -- the "Tarma & Kethry" storyline, that
chronicled the history of the kingdom of Valdemar (the "Heralds" storyline),
and the one that followed the near-extermination (only one member left alive,
total, and her adopted oath-sister) and eventual recovery of one of the
Shin'a'in nomad clans, Clan Tale'Sedrin. Eventually, Tarma & Kethry restored
their clan and retired (BTW -- the later stories deal with something that very
few authors ever bother to deal with... specifically, what heroes do with
themselves *after* retirement....)
... but Kethry had a granddaughter, Kerowyn, who, after one hell of an
independent merc career, ended up becoming a key character in the "Heralds"
storyline.
Of especial note about the "Tarma & Kethry" series is that it taught me more
about how to DM deities, belief structures, and divine intervention in a fantasy
role-playing game than all of the FRPG supplements I've ever bought. Watching
Tarma's interaction with her Goddess (Tarma is a Kal'enedral -- a "Swordsworn",
a martial priest of the Shin'a'in people) and how awesomely deep a wisdom her
Goddess displays in knowing how to truly guide and care for her people and how
*not* to intervene when necessary is worth the price of admission all by itself.
We are talking epic high fantasy on one of its really good days... but with
enough "low" fantasy mixed well enough in that the characters are always
people -- real people, who bleed and get tired and ache in the morning and
everything, and not just icons.
(Misty's the only author I've ever seen who actually got realistic about scar
tissue, aging joints, and how a thirty-five year old barbarian mercenary
*really* feels upon getting up on a cold morning after having had to sleep on
the floor... touches like that are worth the prices of admission all by itself.
So is hearing Tarma's lecture to young dreamers about what the life of the
wandering sell-sword is *really* like. And Misty, of course, never makes a
stupid mistake about the real-world details of horses, care and feeding of...
she's an experienced horsewoman.)
If you've never read any "Valdemar", I'd suggest starting off with the storyline
that originally started out as a short story collection -- the 'Tarma & Kethry'
storyline, found in these three books, _Oathbound_, _Oathbreakers_, and
_Oathblood_.
Now the trouble with the "Tarma & Kethry" storyline is that it wasn't originally
intended to be a storyline -- it started off life as a short story serial in the
"Sword & Sorceress" anthologies. So Book One (_Oathbound_), kinda reads in
sections. And the *origin* story of Tarma & Kethry is not *in* _Oathbound_
(blame the original publisher) -- it's in the 'mop-up' short story collection
that Lackey just published, _Oathblood_.
Still, all three books are worth having. _Oathbound_, even with a bit of a slow
start, is still a good read. _Oathbreakers_, which was written back to front as
a unified novel, is an *outstanding* read. And _Oathblood_, despite one or two
stories that kinda limp, is still a great collection -- plus, they have a new
novella in it. What I really love about the "Tarma & Kethry" storyline is that
it takes every single cliche of the old sword & sorcery -- and stomps them into
the ground. Sideways. This is some of Misty's best writing.
And then there is the "Heralds of Valdemar" storyline, which is by far the
largest part of Misty's universe... and just defies a simple description. If
you can imagine a high fantasy version of the "Lensman" series, right down to
"Chosen" who have both incorruptibility, intense training and responsiblity, and
an absolutely uncounterfeitable and untransferable identification symbol, you've
got Valdemar. Of course, in the Heralds' case, their "identification symbol"
are their Companions -- who are pure white, full-sized and fully-intelligent and
psionically endowed warhorses. (Psst -- don't tell the Heralds, because the
Companions don't want them to know... but Companions are actually Guardian
Spirits of the highest order, sent by the gods to watch over and subtly guide
the Heralds.)
Chronologically, The "Heralds" series starts with a "prequel" trilogy set
several hundred years ago -- "The Last Herald-Mage of Valdemar" series, which
was, IMO, not quite the best one she written. I would not, repeat *not*,
suggest starting off with Valdemar here, it wouldn't give you a fair impression
of how the rest of the Valdemar series reads. Go back and read them after
you've read everything else.
The necessary place to start with the "Valdemar" storyline is the "Arrows"
trilogy (_Arrows of the Queen_, _Arrow's Flight_, and _Arrow's Fall_) -- which
were written as young adult fiction.
They are very *good* young adult fiction, but they are still young adult. Go in
forewarned, and you'll enjoy them a lot more. BTW, reading them is necessary to
understand the characterization and plot of a whole lot that comes after, but
they're only the second or third-best trilogy in the series.
After that (chronologically, at least) comes the introduction of Kerowyn,
Kethry's granddaughter (told you the storylines connected!), in _By The Sword_,
a stand-alone novel that is set mostly outside Valdemar but gets there at the
end -- and just in the nick of time to save Valdemar, too.
After that comes the "Mage Winds" trilogy -- _Winds of Fate_, _Winds of Chance_,
and _Winds of Fury_, which are, no doubt, beyond all possible doubt, the
absolute BEST three books in the entire damn series.
And it brings everything together -- the Shin'a'in, their kin-cousins the
Tay'ledras tribes, Valdemar, the neighboring kingdoms (both hereditary friends
and enemies) -- everything. Not to mention the single most cunning and by far
the most evil villain of all the books -- Mornelithe Falconsbane, the
reincarnation of Ma'Ar the Dark Adept, one of the two most powerful Adepts in
the history of that entire world and the man responsible for the ancient Mage
Wars and the Cataclysm. Let me put it this way -- Mornelithe Falconsbane, even
just recovered from a coma with *brain damage*, was *still* dangerous enough to
need a half-dozen of Valdemar's best -- including three of their most powerful
Adepts... to take down. You don't want to know how bad he was before.
(shudder)
PS -- after "Mage Winds" and the (finally) death of Mornelithe, they then have
to stop the return of the world-destroying Cataclysm... but that's in the
"Storms" trilogy (_Storm Warning_, _Storm Rising_, and _Storm Breaking_).
I started off with "Mage Winds" myself, blind, and that trilogy can indeed stand
alone and still be a great read if you know nothing else about Valdemar... but
you'd enjoy it a lot more with a solid grounding in Valdemar first. I'd
recommend starting in this order -- the "Tarma & Kethry" storyline (optional,
actually, but it will get you addicted to Lackey and then you'll have the *urge*
to finish all the rest), then the "Arrows" trilogy, then _By The Sword_, and
then "Mage Winds". After that, you can go anywhere in Valdemar and know what's
what. :-)
Enjoy!
--
Chuckg
>Greg
>
>Chuckg wrote in message <357fe...@news6.kcdata.com>...
>>No, because Companions are sentient guardian spirits, and Sothoii coursers
>>are merely magically-engineered and slightly-smarter horses, but still
animals.
>>
>>It *does*, however, remind me of Shin'a'in battlesteeds.
(who, like Sothoii coursers, were magically engineered to be a lot smarter and
tougher than real horses... Shin'ain battlesteeds can be trained like war dogs,
thanks to the generations of effort the old Kaled'a'in adepts put into altering
their breeding. PS -- who were the Kaled'a'in? Read _Winds of Chance_, I ain't
saying. (LOL))
Willie@whitehouse.gov Chuck Todd
On 10 Jun 1998 22:21:00 GMT, Tharsia wrote:
:>>
:>>P.S. I bet you cannot guess My Race?
:>>
:>>
:>
:>Er . . . 16th c. Plains American??? <gd&rlh>
:
Souix
Chuck Todd
Jeanne Hedge
Chuckg wrote:
<excellent summation of Lackey's Velgarth universe snipped, except
for...>
>There were two main story lines -- the "Tarma & Kethry" storyline, that
>chronicled the history of the kingdom of Valdemar (the "Heralds" storyline),
>and the one that followed the near-extermination (only one member left alive,
>total, and her adopted oath-sister) and eventual recovery of one of the
>Shin'a'in nomad clans, Clan Tale'Sedrin. Eventually, Tarma & Kethry restored
>their clan and retired (BTW -- the later stories deal with something that very
>few authors ever bother to deal with... specifically, what heroes do with
>themselves *after* retirement....)
Actually, T&K did not chronicle Valdemar, because they only went to
Valdemar the one time. It was about their life and adventures, and, as
you point out, had a lot of information about the Clans and other
things that *are* important in the stories that do deal directly with
Valdemar.
>... but Kethry had a granddaughter, Kerowyn, who, after one hell of an
>independent merc career, ended up becoming a key character in the "Heralds"
>storyline.
And Kero's perhaps T&K's biggest contribution to Valdemar. Everything
else associated with them that ends up with Valdemar does so directly
because of Kero.
>If you've never read any "Valdemar", I'd suggest starting off with the storyline
>that originally started out as a short story collection -- the 'Tarma & Kethry'
>storyline, found in these three books, _Oathbound_, _Oathbreakers_, and
>_Oathblood_.
Oathblood is actually a series of short stories, mostly reprints of
those previously published in Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Sword and
Soceress" series. But there *are* two new stories in this book as
well, including the title novella.
>Chronologically, The "Heralds" series starts with a "prequel" trilogy set
>several hundred years ago -- "The Last Herald-Mage of Valdemar" series, which
>was, IMO, not quite the best one she written. I would not, repeat *not*,
>suggest starting off with Valdemar here, it wouldn't give you a fair impression
>of how the rest of the Valdemar series reads. Go back and read them after
>you've read everything else.
>
>The necessary place to start with the "Valdemar" storyline is the "Arrows"
>trilogy (_Arrows of the Queen_, _Arrow's Flight_, and _Arrow's Fall_) -- which
>were written as young adult fiction.
>
>They are very *good* young adult fiction, but they are still young adult. Go in
>forewarned, and you'll enjoy them a lot more. BTW, reading them is necessary to
>understand the characterization and plot of a whole lot that comes after, but
>they're only the second or third-best trilogy in the series.
I'd read AotQ first, then LHM, then the Tarma and Kethry stories,
then everything else in publication order. But I strongly believe a
person would be really lost if they didn't read AotQ first.
>After that comes the "Mage Winds" trilogy -- _Winds of Fate_, _Winds of Chance_,
>and _Winds of Fury_, which are, no doubt, beyond all possible doubt, the
>absolute BEST three books in the entire damn series.
Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
Regards,
Jeanne Hedge
mike weber
Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:56:01 -0700, "Greg Ewing"
<gew...@cet.com> opined:
>Reference please? Good book?
>
Assuming you're referring to Chuck's mention/exegesis of Companions
and Shin'a'in battlesteeds -- both are from Mercedes Lackey's works.
The Companions are the blue-eyed, telepathic, magic-using, often
smart-ass "horses" that the heralds of Valdemar ride, and the
battle-steeds are ugly, hammer-headed, vicious very intelligent -real-
horses bred by the Shin'a'in plainsfolk...
Beyond that i cannot explain adequately here -- too much ground to
cover.
mike weber
Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:49:37 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
Hedge) opined:
>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
>
A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
"Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
Armorfiend
mike weber wrote:
> A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
> "Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
> over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
>
> --
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
I'm also over on ABML, but I'd get diced if I noised it about too much,
over there... :)
GTG (who liked Grand Duke Tremane)
Chuckg
Jeanne Hedge wrote in message <358167c...@news.wwa.com>...
>Chuckg wrote:
><excellent summation of Lackey's Velgarth universe snipped, except
>for...>
>Actually, T&K did not chronicle Valdemar, because they only went to
>Valdemar the one time. It was about their life and adventures, and, as
>you point out, had a lot of information about the Clans and other
>things that *are* important in the stories that do deal directly with
>Valdemar.
That was a biiiig typo (which I have been known to make before -- *grin*). The
first line should have read "There were two main story lines -- the "Tarma &
Kethry" storyline, which chronicled (etc.), and then the "Heralds" storyline
which chornicled the history of the kingdom of Valdemar.
I didn't mean to say that Tarma & Kethry themselves were more than peripherally
connected with Valdemar, even if one of Kethry's descendants did help save it,
and even if the events of _Oathbreakers_ ended up becoming a vital part of the
histories of both Valdemar and Rethwellan.
>>... but Kethry had a granddaughter, Kerowyn, who, after one hell of an
>>independent merc career, ended up becoming a key character in the "Heralds"
>>storyline.
>
>And Kero's perhaps T&K's biggest contribution to Valdemar. Everything
>else associated with them that ends up with Valdemar does so directly
>because of Kero.
Actually, no. Rethwellan helped save Valdemar from the Karsite invasion in _By
The Sword_ because of the pledge that Prince Stefen of Rethwellan had given
Prince Roald of Valedemar to return Valdemar's assistance favor for favor -- and
the reason that Prince Stefen had given that pledge was because of Valdemar's
logistical support in helping him regain his usurped throne.
But which two people were the key part of the plot to put Stefen back on his
throne? Tarma & Kethry, of course. So I think that you can say that they did
make a major contribution to Valdemar... even if it did lay around for two
generations before Valdemar got around to collecting on the debt. :-)
>>If you've never read any "Valdemar", I'd suggest starting off with the
storyline
>>that originally started out as a short story collection -- the 'Tarma &
Kethry'
>>storyline, found in these three books, _Oathbound_, _Oathbreakers_, and
>>_Oathblood_.
>
>Oathblood is actually a series of short stories, mostly reprints of
>those previously published in Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Sword and
>Soceress" series. But there *are* two new stories in this book as
>well, including the title novella.
>>Chronologically, The "Heralds" series starts with a "prequel" trilogy set
>>several hundred years ago -- "The Last Herald-Mage of Valdemar" series, which
>>was, IMO, not quite the best one she written. I would not, repeat *not*,
>>suggest starting off with Valdemar here, it wouldn't give you a fair
impression
>>of how the rest of the Valdemar series reads. Go back and read them after
>>you've read everything else.
>>
>>The necessary place to start with the "Valdemar" storyline is the "Arrows"
>>trilogy (_Arrows of the Queen_, _Arrow's Flight_, and _Arrow's Fall_) -- which
>>were written as young adult fiction.
>>
>>They are very *good* young adult fiction, but they are still young adult. Go
in
>>forewarned, and you'll enjoy them a lot more. BTW, reading them is necessary
to
>>understand the characterization and plot of a whole lot that comes after, but
>>they're only the second or third-best trilogy in the series.
>
>I'd read AotQ first, then LHM, then the Tarma and Kethry stories,
>then everything else in publication order. But I strongly believe a
>person would be really lost if they didn't read AotQ first.
Not really -- you can read Tarma & Kethry first without ever seeing the "Arrows"
trilogy, and you won't be too lost. (after all, they do a good quickie job of
explaining Herald Roald and his Companion simply by comparing him and said
Companion to Tarma's own status as a Shin'a'in Swordsworn and her own
spirit-teachers.)
However, if you tried to read "Mage Winds" or "Mage Storms" or "Last
Herald-Mage" or anything else without reading "Arrows" first, then you would be
lost.
>>After that comes the "Mage Winds" trilogy -- _Winds of Fate_, _Winds of
Chance_,
>>and _Winds of Fury_, which are, no doubt, beyond all possible doubt, the
>>absolute BEST three books in the entire damn series.
>
>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
That's just a personal taste. I liked watching Elspeth the young woman mature
into the first Herald-Mage since Vanyel's time a lot better than liked watching
Elspeth the Royal Brat grow up into Elspeth the cute teenager. Besides,
Darkwind makes up for a lot, and then there was the villain quality...
--
Chuckg
Jeanne Hedge
mike weber wrote:
>Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:49:37 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
>Hedge) opined:
>
>
>>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
>>
>A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
>"Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
>over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
That was about the time I decided that Lackey needs to take a *long*
break. She's been churning them out way too fast, and storylines are
suffering.
Another favorite, Sue Grafton, took about a year off (or so the story
says) from her "Alphabet Mysteries" series (Kinsey Milhone). Whatever
the reason for the break, it helped, as the stories are back on the
upswing again (IMO)
Jeanne Hedge
Armorfiend wrote:
>mike weber wrote:
>> A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
>> "Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
>> over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
>>
>> --
>> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
>I third that! <G>
>I'm also over on ABML, but I'd get diced if I noised it about too much,
>over there... :)
>
>GTG (who liked Grand Duke Tremane)
I stay away pretty much from ABML. I used to be on the ML mailing
list, but that got a bit too clique-ish for my taste.
(my faves are Kerowyn and Talia in the main Valdemar storyline and
Tarma and Kethry otherwise. And I think there should have been more
with Keren, Teren, and Sherrill ^_^)
Chuckg
Chuckg wrote in message <3581a...@news6.kcdata.com>...
>Actually, no. Rethwellan helped save Valdemar from the Karsite invasion
*Hardonen* invasion, damn it! That's the second enormous typo today!
(pounds head on desk again)
I've had these "caffeine failure days" before, and I guess I'm having another
one.
--
Chuckg
Tharsia
My stepmother's family's part Cree, though you'd never guess from the Celtic
last name either (Glenn). (Apparently we're also related (me by marriage, of
course) to the Glenn who founded Calgary. He was said to be one of the less
avaricious of the white traders back in the gold rush days . . .so he got a
reputation as an honest white man:-)
Chuckg
Jeanne Hedge wrote in message <3581ab01...@news.wwa.com>...
>mike weber wrote:
>>>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
>>>
>>A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
>>"Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
>>over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
There was a lot of set-up that didn't climax until "Mage Storms", true... but I
still liked it. Seeing Ancar and Hulda become 3-D villains, a great deal of the
Falconsbane saga (needed a better death scene at the end, though), and Darkwind,
and Skif, and even Nyara... there was a lot to be said for taking the slow route
to the end of the plot.
>That was about the time I decided that Lackey needs to take a *long*
>break. She's been churning them out way too fast, and storylines are
>suffering.
Actually, I'd started deciding that about the middle of the "Mage Storms"
trilogy, even though I did like Grand Duke Tremane and Karal very, very much.
(Ah yes, and Altra... I'm a hopeless sucker for smart cats.)
And where I *really* thought that Mercedes Lackey was churning them out too fast
was _Black Gryphon_ -- I couldn't even get past the first book. Honestly, what
with the tremendous build-up Ma'Ar the Dark Adept had received, you'd think that
his original downfall would have taken the whole trilogy to chronicle, not just
the one book...
--
Chuckg
>Another favorite, Sue Grafton, took about a year off (or so the story
>says) from her "Alphabet Mysteries" series (Kinsey Milhone). Whatever
>the reason for the break, it helped, as the stories are back on the
>upswing again (IMO)
I haven't seen any Valdemar from Misty since the end of _Storm Breaking_ (except
for _Oathblood_, but as you said that was just an anthology + novella) --
hopefully, she is taking a similar hiatus from Valdemar so that it will upswing
soon.
--
Chuckg
mike weber
Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:28:17 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
Hedge) opined:
>mike weber wrote:
>
>>Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:49:37 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
>>Hedge) opined:
>>
>>
>>>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
>>>
>>A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
>>"Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
>>over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
>
>That was about the time I decided that Lackey needs to take a *long*
>break. She's been churning them out way too fast, and storylines are
>suffering.
>
Did you get the impression -- as i did -- that -By the Sword- was
originally pitched as a trilogy but ((in those days)) someone at DAW
had enough story-sense to recognise there wasn't enough material?
Think about the "Winds" trilogy as onebigmutha volume like -By the
Sword-. Better, neh?
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
The history of exploration is mostly the history of
finding new ways to die unexpectedly --
JWCjr, on the Apollo 1 fire
Jeanne Hedge
mike weber wrote:
>Did you get the impression -- as i did -- that -By the Sword- was
>originally pitched as a trilogy but ((in those days)) someone at DAW
>had enough story-sense to recognise there wasn't enough material?
If not a trilogy, at least a 2-parter.
>Think about the "Winds" trilogy as onebigmutha volume like -By the
>Sword-. Better, neh?
Winds and Storms could have easily been edited down to that size, I
think. (well, maybe not *easily*, but......)
Kevin Scott Eaches
Chuckg wrote:
>
> I haven't seen any Valdemar from Misty since the end of _Storm Breaking_ (except
> for _Oathblood_, but as you said that was just an anthology + novella) --
> hopefully, she is taking a similar hiatus from Valdemar so that it will upswing
> soon.
> --
> Chuckg
Actually, there IS one more book in the Valdemar universe between Storm
Breaking and Oathblood. It's called Owlflight. It's _not_
Herald-centered, but deals with a mage-gifted youth in a Valdemaran
village, out in the boonies. WAY out in the boonies. Near the Pelagirs -
we get more Hawk-brothers. An...interesting read, though it kept making
me think of a young adult story. Might have just been the younger main
character, though.
Kevin Eaches
kea...@infinet.com
mike weber
Sometime around Sat, 13 Jun 1998 05:08:06 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
Hedge) opined:
>mike weber wrote:
>
>>Think about the "Winds" trilogy as onebigmutha volume like -By the
>>Sword-. Better, neh?
>
>Winds and Storms could have easily been edited down to that size, I
>think. (well, maybe not *easily*, but......)
>
Actually, for about three posts here, when i typed "Winds", i was
actually thinking "Storms"
--
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
History doesn't always repeat itself -- sometimes it
just screams "Why don't you listen to what I'm telling
you?" and lets fly with a club. -- JWCjr
Kevin Scott Eaches
And one further bit of information, that I JUST found out tonight on the
Sf-written group. In the listing of Locus Forthcoming, they mentioned
_Owlsight_ (I think that's the name) coming out in October of 1998. If
it's NOT a sequel to Owlflight, I'll eat my hat.
Kevin Eaches
kea...@infinet.com
Louann Miller
In article <35819393...@news.mindspring.com>,
emsh...@aol.com says...
> Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:49:37 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
> Hedge) opined:
>
>
> >
> A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
> "Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
> over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
>
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
I didn't mind that so much. But in the middle of the
'Storms' trilogy, you keep getting characters explaining
things to each other that you the reader already know.
Repeatedly in some cases.
Lackey is far from a bad writer, but to my mind her best
stuff is the few freestanding non-series books she does.
"Sacred Ground," "Firebird," and "Fire Rose," all fairly
recent, are well worth a glom.
--
Our ISP is cyberramp.net -- you know the routine...
Jon Crowhurst
Hey!, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:17:07 -0500, "Chuckg"
<cgla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Greg Ewing wrote in message <6lqqgu$fh2$1...@legends.cet.com>...
>>Reference please? Good book?
>
>
>*Great* books -- but there are rather a lot of them. Despite this not being the
>alt.books.mercedes-lackey newsgroup, I'm still going to ramble on at length, so
>please bear with me folks.
<snips a long & good description of Misty's Tarma & Kethry books to
get to...>
>And then there is the "Heralds of Valdemar" storyline, which is by far the
>largest part of Misty's universe... and just defies a simple description. If
>you can imagine a high fantasy version of the "Lensman" series, right down to
>"Chosen" who have both incorruptibility, intense training and responsiblity, and
>an absolutely uncounterfeitable and untransferable identification symbol, you've
>got Valdemar. Of course, in the Heralds' case, their "identification symbol"
>are their Companions -- who are pure white, full-sized and fully-intelligent and
>psionically endowed warhorses. (Psst -- don't tell the Heralds, because the
>Companions don't want them to know... but Companions are actually Guardian
>Spirits of the highest order, sent by the gods to watch over and subtly guide
>the Heralds.)
Ahem... the original Companions are exactly as you say and so are the
Queen's Own companions like Rolan, but all other Companions are NOT
Guardian Spirits of the highest order, but rather spirits of a lower
order... with a definate link to Valdemar (I won't mention what it is
cause it's a nice-ish surprise when it is revealed).
As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
Jeanne Hedge
Jon Crowhurst wrote:
>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
I'd read BTS before Mage Winds or Storms. How else to find out how
come Selenay suddenly has a hubby? ^_^
Chuckg
Jon Crowhurst wrote in message <3582acbe...@news.golden.net>...
>Hey!, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:17:07 -0500, "Chuckg"
><cgla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Greg Ewing wrote in message <6lqqgu$fh2$1...@legends.cet.com>...
>>>Reference please? Good book?
>>
>>
>>*Great* books -- but there are rather a lot of them. Despite this not being
the
>>alt.books.mercedes-lackey newsgroup, I'm still going to ramble on at length,
so
>>please bear with me folks.
>
><snips a long & good description of Misty's Tarma & Kethry books to
>get to...>
>
>>And then there is the "Heralds of Valdemar" storyline, which is by far the
>>largest part of Misty's universe... and just defies a simple description. If
>>you can imagine a high fantasy version of the "Lensman" series, right down to
>>"Chosen" who have both incorruptibility, intense training and responsiblity,
and
>>an absolutely uncounterfeitable and untransferable identification symbol,
you've
>>got Valdemar. Of course, in the Heralds' case, their "identification symbol"
>>are their Companions -- who are pure white, full-sized and fully-intelligent
and
>>psionically endowed warhorses. (Psst -- don't tell the Heralds, because the
>>Companions don't want them to know... but Companions are actually Guardian
>>Spirits of the highest order, sent by the gods to watch over and subtly guide
>>the Heralds.)
>
>Ahem... the original Companions are exactly as you say and so are the
>Queen's Own companions like Rolan, but all other Companions are NOT
>Guardian Spirits of the highest order, but rather spirits of a lower
>order... with a definate link to Valdemar (I won't mention what it is
>cause it's a nice-ish surprise when it is revealed).
Why do you think I "forgot" to mention that part in the first place? :-)
Now he's been forewarned there's a surprise out there waiting for him, and
surprises are so much more fun when they just run up behind you and hit you in
the back of the head with a board. :-)
>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
That's why I suggested starting with T&K -- both because they can be read
separately from the Valdemar storyline, *and* because reading them will get you
so addicted to Mercedes Lackey *first* that not even the draggiest parts of the
"Heralds" storyline can deter the new pigeon... err, reader... from finishing
them the whole way through. (LOL)
==
Chuckg
towo...@concentric.net
Chuckg <cgla...@hotmail.com> might have said:
FWIW, Chuck, you possibly just spoiled the entire series for people. Most
of that info is the stuff that people go "Huh, whats that, well, maybe
they'll explain it later. i think it's this and that. Oh my god, its
actually that?? Cool!" when they're reading the series. You possibly,
just possibly, should have put a spoiler warning on it...8P
--
Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.shtml
towo...@concentric.net
Kevin Scott Eaches <kea...@infinet.com> might have said:
>we get more Hawk-brothers. An...interesting read, though it kept making
>me think of a young adult story. Might have just been the younger main
Thats because it is. 8) FWIW, Owlsight is supposed to come out next year.
Sequel, of course.
Chuckg
towo...@concentric.net wrote in message <6luin2$l...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>Chuckg <cgla...@hotmail.com> might have said:
>
>FWIW, Chuck, you possibly just spoiled the entire series for people. Most
>of that info is the stuff that people go "Huh, whats that, well, maybe
>they'll explain it later. i think it's this and that. Oh my god, its
>actually that?? Cool!" when they're reading the series. You possibly,
>just possibly, should have put a spoiler warning on it...8P
What did I spoil? I mentioned names of heroes and villains... I did *not*
mention the actual plots. I even tried to fudge on the true nature of
Companions but somebody else let the cat at leasth partway out of the bag on
that one.
Everything I put on this .ng could have been gotten from back cover blurbs and
book reviews, as far as I know. IMO, that's not "spoiling", that's just
publishing the "teaser".
==
Chuckg
pss...@arn.net
In article <3581b...@news6.kcdata.com>,
"Chuckg" <cgla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> >That was about the time I decided that Lackey needs to take a *long*
> >break. She's been churning them out way too fast, and storylines are
> >suffering.
>
> trilogy, even though I did like Grand Duke Tremane and Karal very, very much.
> (Ah yes, and Altra... I'm a hopeless sucker for smart cats.)
>
> And where I *really* thought that Mercedes Lackey was churning them out too
fast
> was _Black Gryphon_ -- I couldn't even get past the first book. Honestly,
what
> with the tremendous build-up Ma'Ar the Dark Adept had received, you'd think
that
> his original downfall would have taken the whole trilogy to chronicle, not
just
> the one book...
> --
> Chuckg
>
> >Another favorite, Sue Grafton, took about a year off (or so the story
> >says) from her "Alphabet Mysteries" series (Kinsey Milhone). Whatever
> >the reason for the break, it helped, as the stories are back on the
> >upswing again (IMO)
>
(except
> for _Oathblood_, but as you said that was just an anthology + novella) --
> hopefully, she is taking a similar hiatus from Valdemar so that it will
upswing
> soon.
> --
> Chuckg
>
>
She wrote a book called "OWLFLIGHT" which was very trivial and
dissappointing. I usually am desperate for something to read and want my
favorite authors to write more, but I hope she will take a break and improve
the product!
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Mary Creasey
mike weber wrote:
>
> Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:28:17 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
> Hedge) opined:
>
> >mike weber wrote:
> >
> >>Sometime around Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:49:37 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne
> >>Hedge) opined:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Too much Elspeth. I really dislike Elspeth as a main character.
> >>>
> >>A-Men!! Plus, while a lot happens in the last bok-and-a-half of the
> >>"Winds" trilogy, nothing really happens. That is, there are Events al
> >>over the place, but the story-line barely budges.
> >
> >break. She's been churning them out way too fast, and storylines are
> >suffering.
> >
>
> originally pitched as a trilogy but ((in those days)) someone at DAW
> had enough story-sense to recognise there wasn't enough material?
I've read the full lyrics to "Kerowyn's Ride" (only about half of it
made it to the tape); the whole first third of the book was neatly
summed up in the one song.
> Think about the "Winds" trilogy as onebigmutha volume like -By the
> Sword-. Better, neh?
Possibly--if you only cut out the fat and not the lean.
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
>
> The history of exploration is mostly the history of
> finding new ways to die unexpectedly --
> JWCjr, on the Apollo 1 fire
Too true--ask ANY of the "Age of Exploration" (15th-17th C.)
folks....
Mary the Filker
Armorfiend
mike weber wrote:
> Actually, for about three posts here, when i typed "Winds", i was
> actually thinking "Storms"
>
> --
> <mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
out that way... The first one was so darn _small_, that I just couldn't
believe it!
GTG
Armorfiend
Jeanne Hedge wrote:
> I stay away pretty much from ABML. I used to be on the ML mailing
> list, but that got a bit too clique-ish for my taste.
>
> (my faves are Kerowyn and Talia in the main Valdemar storyline and
> Tarma and Kethry otherwise. And I think there should have been more
> with Keren, Teren, and Sherrill ^_^)
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeanne Hedge
ABML isn't cliquish, rather it's just all gone insane... <G> Since we've
had to wait so long for her next book, we've completely exhauseted just
about everything there is to talk about. Occaisionally newbies come in,
and we jump on any new opinions that they show... But eventually, all
the speculation dies again, so we just aggressivly forge our way off
topic.
The mailing list, though, has recieved that complaint a lot <G>
I too, liked a lot of the fighters/weak mages better than all of the
supermagi that pop up so often...
GTG :)
mike weber
Sometime around Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:06:23 GMT,
tak...@SPAMBLOCK.golden.net (Jon Crowhurst) opined:
>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
Actually, Tarma and Kethry have Significant encounters with Heralds
and Valdemar before that, at least chronologically speaking -- i
forget just where/when, 'cos it's been years since i read those books,
but i remember a winter-set sequence...
Jon Crowhurst
Hey!, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:22:54 GMT, jhe...@wwa.com (Jeanne Hedge)
wrote:
>Jon Crowhurst wrote:
>
>>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
>
>I'd read BTS before Mage Winds or Storms. How else to find out how
>come Selenay suddenly has a hubby? ^_^
As I said, publication order... which is where having a date of
copyright in the front of each book makes SO much sense. <g>
Jon Crowhurst
Hey!, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:38:46 -0500, "Chuckg"
<cgla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
<snipping stuff to get this dang Usenet conncetcion of mine to accept
this post... >
>>Ahem... the original Companions are exactly as you say and so are the
>>Queen's Own companions like Rolan, but all other Companions are NOT
>>Guardian Spirits of the highest order, but rather spirits of a lower
>>order... with a definate link to Valdemar (I won't mention what it is
>>cause it's a nice-ish surprise when it is revealed).
>
>
>Why do you think I "forgot" to mention that part in the first place? :-)
>
>Now he's been forewarned there's a surprise out there waiting for him, and
>surprises are so much more fun when they just run up behind you and hit you in
>the back of the head with a board. :-)
LOL... I remember there back when I was on GEnie taking part in the
Queen's Own section (this was when Misty was on GEnie and partaking in
the chat) there was a bit of discussion about just that element... I
did a list of the known Heralds, their talents and the Companions (I
was always losing track of who could do what) and independantly noted
what some others had spotted when they read BTS...
Oh, BTW, don't ask if I got that list... that was two HD reformats ago
and even if I did have it, it would be largely obsolete (made after
the 1st book in the Wings trilogy).
>>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
>
>That's why I suggested starting with T&K -- both because they can be read
>separately from the Valdemar storyline, *and* because reading them will get you
>so addicted to Mercedes Lackey *first* that not even the draggiest parts of the
>"Heralds" storyline can deter the new pigeon... err, reader... from finishing
Yeah... T&K are a relatively realistic fantasy series... good for
those who have zero patience for fantasy stories that don't have any
credence with being accurate about what occurs. BTW, have you read
Margaret Ball's "Tales from the Slushpile", found in Esther Friesner's
"Did You Say Chicks?" anthology? A humorous take on the same
principle. <G>
Chuckg
Jon Crowhurst wrote in message <3585f992...@news.golden.net>...
I've seen (but haven't bought) a _Chicks in Chainmail_ anthology, but I've never
seen Friesner's _Did You Say Chicks?_ anthology. I did like her _Villains By
Necessity_, though.
--
Chuckg
mike weber
Sometime around Tue, 16 Jun 98 01:11:56 -0700, "Chuck Todd" <Slick
Wil...@whitehouse.gov> opined:
>On 12 Jun 1998 23:06:12 GMT, Tharsia wrote:
>
>:>
>:>My stepmother's family's part Cree, though you'd never guess from the Celtic
>:>last name either (Glenn). (Apparently we're also related (me by marriage, of
>:>course) to the Glenn who founded Calgary. He was said to be one of the less
>:>avaricious of the white traders back in the gold rush days . . .so he got a
>:>reputation as an honest white man:-)
>:>
>
>This Ancestor Thing is kind of like being a ausi and Claiming a murderer as a
>grandfather.
>As long as the ancestor in question is dead and forgotten.
>
"If you're born of Australia I know that you be
The son of a son of a scoundrel like me!"
((Shel Silverstein, -Ned Kelly- soundtrack))
=======================================
<mike weber> <emsh...@aol.com>
"If you ordered a carload of sons of bitches, delivery
of him alone would constitute substantial performance"
((Richard Haas, attorney, about a government lawyer))
Scott Raun
On Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:15:05 GMT, emsh...@aol.com (mike weber)
wrote:
>Sometime around Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:06:23 GMT,
>tak...@SPAMBLOCK.golden.net (Jon Crowhurst) opined:
>
>>As for your suggested reading order, Misty's books are best tackled in
>>publication order especially the books set in Valdemar proper. The
>>Arrows trilogy sets the world of Valdemar up rather well and is must
>>reading to understand the rest of it. The three Tarma & Kethry books
>>stand apart and can be read in order - note that they don't link
>>universes until By The Sword, and the link is tenuous enough that it
>>doesn't matter what you read prior to By The Sword as long as it was
>>at least one book of the Valdemar series and one book of T&K series.
>
>Actually, Tarma and Kethry have Significant encounters with Heralds
>and Valdemar before that, at least chronologically speaking -- i
>forget just where/when, 'cos it's been years since i read those books,
>but i remember a winter-set sequence...
Let's see - just one, IIRC. Something to do with Herald-Prince Roald
and a coup - about the last half of Oathbreakers...
Remember: Valdemar financed King Stefan's overthrow of his brother.
That's why Rethwellan owed Valdemar a rather significant favor - which
was very useful later on, and the redemption of which was _all_
Kerowyn's fault (in By The Sword).
-----
Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check?
Scott Raun - sr...@iaxs.net
pwa...@atlanta.com
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:47:22 -0500, "Chuckg" <cgla...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
>I've seen (but haven't bought) a _Chicks in Chainmail_ anthology, but I've never
>seen Friesner's _Did You Say Chicks?_ anthology. I did like her _Villains By
>Necessity_, though.
I believe that Eve Forward wrote _Villians by Necessity_, a very good
first novel
pww