At All Costs and non-stop attack runs
loua...@yahoo.com
the strategic rules have entirely changed, with no reason given, since
the start of the series. And not in a way (at least that he could see)
based on the oodles of new technology floating around, either.
To sum up: as I understand his gripe, he looked at the series of raids
by (spoiler) going easily past the battle front deep into (spoiler)
territory and asked, WTF have we been diddling around with astral
geography for all this time? In what sense does a 'front line' system
(e.g. Yeltsin) in any way protect an 'interior' system (e.g. Manticore)
if the enemy can island-hop undetectably around the first one in
hyperspace for a direct attack on the second one?
Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
I wasn't struck that way at all on my own reading of AAC. But now that
it's been pointed out, I don't have an opposing argument either. Are he
and I both missing something?
Arturo Magidin
loua...@yahoo.com <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A friend of mine reviewed AAC in his live journal and complained that
>the strategic rules have entirely changed, with no reason given, since
>the start of the series. And not in a way (at least that he could see)
>based on the oodles of new technology floating around, either.
>
>To sum up: as I understand his gripe, he looked at the series of raids
>by (spoiler) going easily past the battle front deep into (spoiler)
>territory and asked, WTF have we been diddling around with astral
>geography for all this time? In what sense does a 'front line' system
>(e.g. Yeltsin) in any way protect an 'interior' system (e.g. Manticore)
>if the enemy can island-hop undetectably around the first one in
>hyperspace for a direct attack on the second one?
There are a number of problems: first, the lines of communication: for
a fleet departing from the edges of Haven space, it takes 3 weeks to
get to Manticore (without using a hyperspace terminus). How do you
support a fleet in Manticore?
You can certainly ->raid<- Manticore, just as the allies could bombard
Berlin in WWII prior to occupying Germany. And you can play havoc with
the stationary industry. But it would be difficult to occupy Manticore
if there is any substantial force that can be moved to smack you if
you cannot easily get reinforcements or re-supply.
>Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
>hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
>only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
>home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
>giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
What do you do after attacking the other guy's home system? You
leave. Just like bombing Japan or Germany during 1944.
The only way you can effectively occupy the enemy's home system is if
you have a series of supply depots and fleet centers closer to the
enemy than your own central deposits; hence the need to occupy systems
closer to the enemy's home base.
Notice that the purpose of Beatrice wasn't to occupy Manticore: by
eliminating Home Fleet and Third/Third+Eight Fleet, and destroying the
manufacturing facilities in the Manticore system, Manticore would be
unable to withstand an attack by Haven: the difference in hulls would
be overwhelming. At that point, Manticore would have to surrender and
start negotiating, or Haven would simply advance in the more
traditional manner, occupy locations along the way (like Trevor's
Star, which would give them an ideal 'advance base/depot'), and then
go on to occupy the Home system. Had Beatrice succeeded, it wasn't
Tourville's force (or Tourville and Chin's force) that would occupy
Manticore; they would be withdrawn and then Manticore would be forced
to surrender and come to the table.
Going to the enemy's home system doesn't destroy the enemy's fleet: it
only destroys (if you're lucky) the fleet present. The situation with
Manticore had to do with the potential destruction of the industrial
base, plus the fact that Manticore was already behind in tonnage and
hulls. Hitting New Paris, for instance, would do much less good to
Manticore than hitting Manticore would do for Haven, since the
industrial base necessary for the Haven fleet was not in New Paris.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
mag...@math.berkeley.edu
benjamin schollnick
<"loua...@yahoo.com"> wrote:
> To sum up: as I understand his gripe, he looked at the series of raids
> by (spoiler) going easily past the battle front deep into (spoiler)
> territory and asked, WTF have we been diddling around with astral
> geography for all this time? In what sense does a 'front line' system
> (e.g. Yeltsin) in any way protect an 'interior' system (e.g. Manticore)
> if the enemy can island-hop undetectably around the first one in
> hyperspace for a direct attack on the second one?
The reason is simple, time, energy, money, and convience...
Each side was not willing to gamble with taking a fleet deep into enemy
territory, preventing those units from being used in a defensive
position.
It might take a week to attach a "front line" system, but a month to
attack a interior system....
Would you want our defensive forces tied up for a month?
> Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
> hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
> only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
> home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
> giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
If you can get the first strike in, then maybe that would work, but if
the enemy has any forces available afterwords, be careful.
And hope that the enemy isn't doing the same thing to you while your
forces are off attacking him...
> I wasn't struck that way at all on my own reading of AAC. But now that
> it's been pointed out, I don't have an opposing argument either. Are he
> and I both missing something?
It's been a logical progression...
- Benjamin
Mean Green Dancing Machine
benjamin schollnick <bsch...@mac.com> wrote:
>In article <1132693903....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
><"loua...@yahoo.com"> wrote:
>>
>> Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
>> hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
>> only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
>> home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
>> giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
>
>If you can get the first strike in, then maybe that would work, but if
>the enemy has any forces available afterwords, be careful.
>
>And hope that the enemy isn't doing the same thing to you while your
>forces are off attacking him...
Yes. Theisman warns Pritchart that's one of the possibilities if
Manticore is further along with their new weapon systems than currently
believed.
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2005 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"Society does not owe people jobs.
Society owes it to itself to find people jobs." --Philippa Cowderoy
Don Sample
mag...@math.berkeley.edu (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
But it wasn't just the attack against Manticore. Honor was conducting
deep raids against the RoH all through the book. Not as deep as Haven
itself, but she was operating well behind their lines, to force the RoH
to pull units away from the front lines, in order to protect all their
other systems. Why hadn't the Manties been doing that sort of thing all
along?
The Alliance, which didn't real have much depth, wasn't nearly as
susceptible to that sort of attack, didn't have to worry so much about
that sort of thing.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Don Sample
aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote:
> In article <221120051646498855%bsch...@mac.com>,
> benjamin schollnick <bsch...@mac.com> wrote:
> >In article <1132693903....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> ><"loua...@yahoo.com"> wrote:
> >>
> >> Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
> >> hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
> >> only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
> >> home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
> >> giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
> >
> >If you can get the first strike in, then maybe that would work, but if
> >the enemy has any forces available afterwords, be careful.
> >
> >And hope that the enemy isn't doing the same thing to you while your
> >forces are off attacking him...
>
> Yes. Theisman warns Pritchart that's one of the possibilities if
> Manticore is further along with their new weapon systems than currently
> believed.
Yes, taking the bulk of your fleet off to attack the other guy's home
system has always been a risky affair, but why haven't the Manties been
conducting deep raids, like Honor was doing all through AAC, from the
start of the war? Make the Peeps spread themselves around trying to
cover all their behind the lines systems. The Manties could have done
that without having to commit the bulk of their fleet to it.
Jeffrey MacHott
Practically speaking, maybe, but from a political standpoint, certainly
not. Manticore had to defend not only it's own home system, but those
of their allies (Grayson has been the only ally who has shown itself
capable of more-or-less independently defending against a Havenite
attack on their homeworld, and even then, they were only defending
against a raid, not a full-fledged assault.) Haven launched a number of
behind-the-front-lines raids, often practically just throwing away ships
to do so, with no practical reduction in their ability to continue
fighting the Manties, while the Manties were having to dig deep to find
the manpower and hulls (considerably smaller population and industrial
base) to fight the Havenite fleets with.
Also keep in mind, that for a good long while, Manticore *had* to keep
the bulk of it's fleet in the home system in case the Havenites should
launch an assault from Trevor's Star through the terminus, completley
bypassing the front lines. Much of what wasn't defending Manticore was
maneuvering against Trevor's Star itself. Finally, the only way they
were able to take Trevor's Star was to send Home Fleet in against it
through the junction along with 3rd Fleet attacking from the front lines
(was it 3rd Fleet?), leaving Manticore completley exposed to attack
while they did this.
And of course, it wasn't until recently that anything near the size and
range of broadsides routinely used in At All Costs were possible. An
attacking fleet early in the war would have to take on massive defenses
with relatively limited throw weight. Even after that wasn't an issue,
the fleets were led by officers who had allways had to deal with that as
an issue, and old habits would die hard.
And of course, the rennesance of LAC warfare allowed fleets to reconitor
an enemy system to get a feel for the defenses, as well as providing
extra missile defense, without putting larger ships in un-necessary risk
(a modern LAC is both cheaper and much harder to find and intercept than
a destroyer would be).
--
--Jeffrey MacHott
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of
childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -- C.S. Lewis
Arturo Magidin
Don Sample <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote:
>In article <dm02km$1h59$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> mag...@math.berkeley.edu (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
[.snip.]
In this war, they have. In previous wars, they had no need: they had
the initiative, were on the offensive, had the edge on hulls and
quality. Why risk hulls on raids, when you can use them to push
forward on the front? And at the time, the amount of hardware needed
to overcome fixed defenses was prohibitive (with no pod-noughts, no
carriers, you would have to send a very large number of dreadnoughts;
you might as well use them to keep to enemy pinned down along the front).
And at the time, they had the problem of Trevor's Star; remember that
they only took Trevor's Star just as Buttercup was ramping up. At that
point, raids were pointless: all you had to do was push
forward. Trevor's Star was a major headache because of the Junction
terminus. Haven was not going to redeploy from Trevor's Star, which
was the major objective of Manticore, and in the long run, the
Alliance could not hope to win a war of attrition with Haven; Haven is
too big, can absorb too much damage. The point right now is that they
needed to slow down Haven a bit until Manticore could ramp up
production and overhaul Haven't advantage in hulls. The raids would
not be effective in the long run, only in the very short run to slow
down Haven's advance.
Steve Osmanski
>Yes, taking the bulk of your fleet off to attack the other guy's home
>system has always been a risky affair, but why haven't the Manties been
>conducting deep raids, like Honor was doing all through AAC, from the
>start of the war? Make the Peeps spread themselves around trying to
>cover all their behind the lines systems. The Manties could have done
>that without having to commit the bulk of their fleet to it.
Maybe the Manties were doing this all through the war but we just
weren't shown it since no viewpoint characters were involved. The
appendix in the back of SVW tells us that Manticore favored BCs for
raiding enemy infrastructure (and that the Peeps built so many BBs
just to defend against such raids). Maybe squadrons of Manty BCs were
active all behind enemy lines thorughout the first war and we were
never explicitly told.
There is at least one such raid mentioned. In EoH we are told that the
Peep captain Joanne Hall had defeated a trio of raiding Manty BCs by
going ballistic in her BB. So the RMN was raiding behind Peep front
lines, we just didn't see most of it.
forkliftramp.com
<loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
in a word Logistics.
--
"Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp,
panicky half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete,
fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence
never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the
other guys are all dead."
deowll
<loua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132693903....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Matter of tactics and strategy. Going for the heart is apt to produce a
blood bath as in the last book. If you lack the stomach for that you try to
work your way in by removing smaller parts that look vulnerable and would
weaken them. In the long run you may have more causalities but when you get
to home system it might be much weaker or even ready to cut a deal.
On the other hand they should have been raiding each others home systems
from day one. It causes people to scream, run in circles and demand the navy
be stationed in home system and that all available resources be spent of
defense at the cost of offense.
deowll
"Arturo Magidin" <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:dm02km$1h59$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <1132693903....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> loua...@yahoo.com <loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>A friend of mine reviewed AAC in his live journal and complained that
>>the strategic rules have entirely changed, with no reason given, since
>>the start of the series. And not in a way (at least that he could see)
>>based on the oodles of new technology floating around, either.
>>
>>To sum up: as I understand his gripe, he looked at the series of raids
>>by (spoiler) going easily past the battle front deep into (spoiler)
>>territory and asked, WTF have we been diddling around with astral
>>geography for all this time? In what sense does a 'front line' system
>>(e.g. Yeltsin) in any way protect an 'interior' system (e.g. Manticore)
>>if the enemy can island-hop undetectably around the first one in
>>hyperspace for a direct attack on the second one?
>
> There are a number of problems: first, the lines of communication: for
> a fleet departing from the edges of Haven space, it takes 3 weeks to
> get to Manticore (without using a hyperspace terminus). How do you
> support a fleet in Manticore?
It doesn't have to stay.
>
> You can certainly ->raid<- Manticore, just as the allies could bombard
> Berlin in WWII prior to occupying Germany. And you can play havoc with
> the stationary industry. But it would be difficult to occupy Manticore
> if there is any substantial force that can be moved to smack you if
> you cannot easily get reinforcements or re-supply.
>
You can trash the navel yards and major industry. Trash the universities,
civilian merchant shipping and in general ruin the economy, knock the
government out of operation and cause all sorts of chaos.
>>Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
>>hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
>>only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
>>home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
>>giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
>
> What do you do after attacking the other guy's home system? You
> leave. Just like bombing Japan or Germany during 1944.
After which much of the industrial base was in ruins and priceless war
material gone. In this case you might have even been able to capture part of
the government and steal tech and the people that know how to make it.
People might refuse to work for you but if you have their families that is
harder to do.
>
> The only way you can effectively occupy the enemy's home system is if
> you have a series of supply depots and fleet centers closer to the
> enemy than your own central deposits; hence the need to occupy systems
> closer to the enemy's home base.
Of course you don't need to occupy if you can cut it off and nuturalize it.
>
> Notice that the purpose of Beatrice wasn't to occupy Manticore: by
> eliminating Home Fleet and Third/Third+Eight Fleet, and destroying the
> manufacturing facilities in the Manticore system, Manticore would be
> unable to withstand an attack by Haven: the difference in hulls would
> be overwhelming. At that point, Manticore would have to surrender and
> start negotiating, or Haven would simply advance in the more
> traditional manner, occupy locations along the way (like Trevor's
> Star, which would give them an ideal 'advance base/depot'), and then
> go on to occupy the Home system. Had Beatrice succeeded, it wasn't
> Tourville's force (or Tourville and Chin's force) that would occupy
> Manticore; they would be withdrawn and then Manticore would be forced
> to surrender and come to the table.
>
> Going to the enemy's home system doesn't destroy the enemy's fleet: it
> only destroys (if you're lucky) the fleet present. The situation with
> Manticore had to do with the potential destruction of the industrial
> base, plus the fact that Manticore was already behind in tonnage and
> hulls. Hitting New Paris, for instance, would do much less good to
> Manticore than hitting Manticore would do for Haven, since the
> industrial base necessary for the Haven fleet was not in New Paris.
Shatter the government. That might be enough to force about any kind of
peace treaty you want. Of course a few years later these people aren't going
to like you so figure on another round.
deowll
"Don Sample" <dsa...@synapse.net> wrote in message
news:dsample-255701...@news.giganews.com...
But it was done at Zanzabar and other locations.
Arturo Magidin
Right. But the only way you can do that is by throwing in an enormous
weight of ships. Haven committed about 80% of its wall of battle,
which was then out of circulation for 3 weeks. It was a major risk,
run only because the alternative was to wait until the entire
Manticore fleet was refitted with the new weapons, and then be
annihilated. It's not a risk you run lightly.
Other locations ->had<- been continually raided by Haven: Zanzibar,
attacks on Grayson, Basilisk, Erehwon. Because Haven was on the
defensive. And they succeeded in their objectives: throw off
Manticore's attack tempo. I seem to recall that Manticore had to
postpone the attack on Trevor's Star and other major offensives for a
long time because of their inability to concentrate enough forces, by
the need to have large detachments covering those locations (making
raids prohibitively expensive for Haven).
And, as has been pointed out, it has only been recently (since the
advent of pod-laying ships of several sizes, and the MDM technology)
that even a fleet as large as the one Haven sent to Manticore would
have been able to have the throw weight necessary to make a dent on
the fixed defenses of the major hubs.
As for Manticore, as noted, they had no need to engage in high risk
raids until this war: they were on the offensive.
Arturo Magidin
deowll <deo...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>On the other hand they should have been raiding each others home systems
>from day one. It causes people to scream, run in circles and demand the navy
>be stationed in home system and that all available resources be spent of
>defense at the cost of offense.
They were; Haven attacked Zanzibar, Grayson, Basilisk, Erehwon, and
other Alliance partners and locations precisely to force dispertion,
in the previous war. Manticore was on the offensive, so sending
high-risk raids is counter-productive: you are trying to concentrate
your force, not disperse it. The home systems, on the other hand, had
formidable defenses; even with the throw weight of podlyaing
battlecruisers-through-dreadnoughts, Donkey, and MDMs, Haven had to
commit, what, about 80% of its modern fleet to the attack on
Manticore? An attack that would have failed in the previous war when
they did not have the weight or range, when the defenses on the home
system were comparatively better, and when Manticore had a larger
'available' forces for reinforcement through the wormhole
available. We don't know what Home Fleet in Haven was, either; but the
defenses in Trevor's Star were large enough to require a sustained,
extremely large attack (that involved reinforcement by all of Home
Fleet to deliver the telling blow). We can only guess that their own
Home Fleet was at least as powerful. But Manticore ->did<- raid and
knock out all of the systems that provided logistical support to
Trevor's Star prior to that engagement.
Loren Pechtel
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>Right. But the only way you can do that is by throwing in an enormous
>weight of ships. Haven committed about 80% of its wall of battle,
>which was then out of circulation for 3 weeks. It was a major risk,
>run only because the alternative was to wait until the entire
>Manticore fleet was refitted with the new weapons, and then be
>annihilated. It's not a risk you run lightly.
Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
something big happens Haven is defeated.
Arturo Magidin
Not right now, because they ->did<- manage to destroy a very large
portion of the Manticore wall of battle. Trevor's Star is currently
protected only by battlecruisers, for example, and all Apollo-equipped
ships are tied down protecting the Manticore system. And Haven's
building production is still growing faster than Manticore's. Until
the situation with the League and the Cluster stabilizes, Manticore
still cannot afford to send the ships to attack Haven.
loua...@yahoo.com
Loren Pechtel wrote:
> (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
> >Haven committed about 80% of its wall of battle,
> >which was then out of circulation for 3 weeks. It was a major risk,
> >run only because the alternative was to wait until the entire
> >Manticore fleet was refitted with the new weapons, and then be
> >annihilated. It's not a risk you run lightly.
>
> Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
> something big happens Haven is defeated.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying "Midway." (I'm not an
overall military historian, but I've read a lot of Gordon Prange on
WWII.)
Although AAC did lay the groundwork for Haven having a whole lot of new
ships in the pipeline, and we've already covered how Haven's military
casualties have been tiny in proportion to their overall population. So
not "Midway" from the war-of-attrition standpoint so much.
Louann, who fancies nobody ever wanted to play poker with Spruance
again after that.
Jeffrey MacHott
Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
different star nations).
This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
Stoneface
<Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
>> something big happens Haven is defeated.
>
>Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
It will take sometime before the mantys can exploit their advantage
but they have 3 star nations building apollo capable ships. It won't
be two long before they have their defenses straightened away and can
free up offensive forces and when that happens Haven has nothing that
can stop them and won't have for years (not that they will get years
this time)
>
>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>different star nations).
the biggest shock will be Haven's, their whole navy is now obsolete :)
>
>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
>
They do have the single most powerful fleet in space, and it will be
getting bigger so i think Manticore will stay the driving force in the
Alliance.
--
Everything that can be counted doesn't necessarily count;
Everything that counts can't necessarily be counted. (Einstein)
Jeffrey MacHott
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:37:02 -0600, Jeffrey MacHott
> <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>
>
>>>Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
>>>something big happens Haven is defeated.
>>
>>Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
>>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
>
>
> It will take sometime before the mantys can exploit their advantage
> but they have 3 star nations building apollo capable ships. It won't
> be two long before they have their defenses straightened away and can
> free up offensive forces and when that happens Haven has nothing that
> can stop them and won't have for years (not that they will get years
> this time)
They may have three star nations building Apollo capable ships, but even
combined they don't match the ship-building capability that Haven has.
Also recall that the Alliance has always had manpower problems, that's
not gonna be much better for them now that they've lost two entire
fleets in the same battle. Who's to say Haven can't pull together a
force big enough to start raiding shipyards in the systems where Honor's
Home Fleet isn't camping? Remember that hers IS still the only fleet
with Apollo.
>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>>different star nations).
>
>
> the biggest shock will be Haven's, their whole navy is now obsolete :)
That hasn't stopped them for the last 20 years, no particular reason for
it to stop them now :*D
>>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
>>
>
> They do have the single most powerful fleet in space, and it will be
> getting bigger so i think Manticore will stay the driving force in the
> Alliance.
Well, they haven't had the single most powerful fleet for a while now.
As of the beginning of the second war, Grayson had the largest fleet
among the Alliance members, and Manticore has just had two of their
primary fleets destroyed (some part of both fleets were Grayson and
Andermani units, but it's unclear just what the ratio was, or how those
numbers compare to each fleet's overall disposition.)
Don Sample
Jeffrey MacHott <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
> At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
> try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
> shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
> battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
> different star nations).
Maybe the worst single day, but it pales in comparison to some of the
WW-II battles on the eastern front between the Axis and the Soviets.
Jeffrey MacHott
> In article <X17hf.1555$1x.1539@fed1read06>,
> Jeffrey MacHott <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>
>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>>different star nations).
>
>
> Maybe the worst single day, but it pales in comparison to some of the
> WW-II battles on the eastern front between the Axis and the Soviets.
Well, I suppose I should have said space battles. But for sheer scale
and intensity, I tend to doubt there was much in WWI or II to compare it
to.
Jerry
forced to surrender sixty eight podnoughts, seven CLAC's and over three
thousand LAC's at the end of the battle at Manticore. While some of
those vessels would be damaged beyond repair, a substantial portion
would be able to be refitted for Alliance use. This, in addition to the
new construction Alliance SD(P)'s and the Andermani SD(P)'s being
refitted will give the Alliance a substantial degree of assistance.
Of course, they could end up returned to Republican service as well when
Haven eventually joins with the Alliance to fight the real cause of this
war.....Mesa, Manpower and their Solarian allies. Now this will be quite
a conflict....uneasy allies fighting side by side against a ruthless
juggernaut who is their common foe.
Jerry
Taki Kogoma
allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>You might also want to rememember something else. Lester Tourville was
>forced to surrender sixty eight podnoughts, seven CLAC's and over three
>thousand LAC's at the end of the battle at Manticore. While some of
>those vessels would be damaged beyond repair, a substantial portion
>would be able to be refitted for Alliance use. This, in addition to the
>new construction Alliance SD(P)'s and the Andermani SD(P)'s being
>refitted will give the Alliance a substantial degree of assistance.
The Havenite LACs are barely wroth scrapping for raw materials, and
the other ships are obsolescent at best and would take considerable
resources to refit to Apollo capability. Remember the bottleneck
involved with converting the Andy Podnaughts? Plus there's the
manning situation; Manty/Grayson designs have all that automation to
free up crew strength for more ships.
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk -- quirk @ swcp.com | /"\ ASCII RIBBON
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | \ / CAMPAIGN
Just an article detector on the | X AGAINST HTML MAIL
Information Supercollider. | / \ AND POSTINGS
Jerry
embraced the degree of automation that the Graysons and RMN have. I
would hardly say that the new fission powered Republican LAC's are only
worth scrapping. Every little bit helps....especially when there is an
extreme lack of hulls available.
Jerry
Taki Kogoma
allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>Taki Kogoma wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 16:02:49 GMT, Jerry <tekt...@aol.com>
>> allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>>>You might also want to rememember something else. Lester Tourville was
>>>forced to surrender sixty eight podnoughts, seven CLAC's and over three
>>>thousand LAC's at the end of the battle at Manticore. While some of
>>>those vessels would be damaged beyond repair, a substantial portion
>>>would be able to be refitted for Alliance use. This, in addition to the
>>>new construction Alliance SD(P)'s and the Andermani SD(P)'s being
>>>refitted will give the Alliance a substantial degree of assistance.
>>
>> The Havenite LACs are barely wroth scrapping for raw materials, and
>> the other ships are obsolescent at best and would take considerable
>> resources to refit to Apollo capability. Remember the bottleneck
>> involved with converting the Andy Podnaughts? Plus there's the
>> manning situation; Manty/Grayson designs have all that automation to
>> free up crew strength for more ships.
>
>embraced the degree of automation that the Graysons and RMN have. I
>would hardly say that the new fission powered Republican LAC's are only
>worth scrapping.
No bow walls, need compensator refits...You *might* be able to make
them into second-rate Ferret clones, but at what cost?
>Every little bit helps....especially when there is an
>extreme lack of hulls available.
But will it be cost- and time-effective to gut the Havenite hulls --
disrupting the existing building/refit program in the process -- in
order to adapt them to use Alliance MDMs and pods. Not to mention
the fire control and EW issues? You don't have anything resembling a
supply of Havenite ammo and spares either.
Hrm. It just occurred to me that this may be an expedient way for
BuShips and BuWeaps to get a couple of relatively cheap test-beds for
the long-debated SDE project. ;-)
Loren Pechtel
<Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>They may have three star nations building Apollo capable ships, but even
>combined they don't match the ship-building capability that Haven has.
It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
return fire.
Haven knows what Apollo can do even if they don't know how it works
(and they should be figuring it out anyway). Future battles should
pretty much go down like that raid where Harrington offered to let
them scuttle and avoid battle.
>Also recall that the Alliance has always had manpower problems, that's
>not gonna be much better for them now that they've lost two entire
>fleets in the same battle. Who's to say Haven can't pull together a
>force big enough to start raiding shipyards in the systems where Honor's
>Home Fleet isn't camping? Remember that hers IS still the only fleet
>with Apollo.
Not for long.
Loren Pechtel
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>>Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
>>something big happens Haven is defeated.
>
>Not right now, because they ->did<- manage to destroy a very large
>portion of the Manticore wall of battle. Trevor's Star is currently
>protected only by battlecruisers, for example, and all Apollo-equipped
>ships are tied down protecting the Manticore system. And Haven's
>building production is still growing faster than Manticore's. Until
>the situation with the League and the Cluster stabilizes, Manticore
>still cannot afford to send the ships to attack Haven.
They went into it with a considerable numeric superiority. They don't
have that anymore and Manticore has something like 100 wallers
captured from Haven. Admittedly they aren't up to Manticore standards
but patched up they should be useful for system defense.
As for Haven's production--that should be easy to kill. It seems to
me that a BC(P) with Apollo should be able to take out a production
facility on it's own. Stay outside the hyper limit and send the
missiles in.
Loren Pechtel
<Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
>
>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>different star nations).
Time to refit Apollo.
As for defending Manticore--against what? Their fixed defenses will
hold against anything but the Sollies right now. All the Apollo ships
should be out clobbering Havenite production facilities.
>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
Manticore has nearly as much firepower as pre-battle assuming they can
repair/man those Havenite ships.
Arturo Magidin
Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:09:15 +0000 (UTC), mag...@math.berkeley.edu
>(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
>>>Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
>>>something big happens Haven is defeated.
>>
>>Not right now, because they ->did<- manage to destroy a very large
>>portion of the Manticore wall of battle. Trevor's Star is currently
>>protected only by battlecruisers, for example, and all Apollo-equipped
>>ships are tied down protecting the Manticore system. And Haven's
>>building production is still growing faster than Manticore's. Until
>>the situation with the League and the Cluster stabilizes, Manticore
>>still cannot afford to send the ships to attack Haven.
>
>They went into it with a considerable numeric superiority. They don't
>have that anymore and Manticore has something like 100 wallers
>captured from Haven. Admittedly they aren't up to Manticore standards
>but patched up they should be useful for system defense.
And Haven has well over 100 wallers in their remaining fleet. And the
numerical superiority of Haven still exists: they are building hulls
faster than Manticore, and the difference is still increasing in
Haven's favor (and will continue to do so for at least another T-year,
if my memory serves), so even if they were once again even, Haven will
have numerical superiority soon, and will continue to have it for at
least a couple of years (until Manticore overhauls the gap and starts
making up for it). And this assumes Manticore does not have to send
resources away to the Cluster, to Silesia, and to defend San Marino,
Grayson, and other locations.
>As for Haven's production--that should be easy to kill. It seems to
>me that a BC(P) with Apollo should be able to take out a production
>facility on it's own. Stay outside the hyper limit and send the
>missiles in.
(i) You need to know where they are. Manticore still doesn't know
where Bolthole and a large number of Haven production facilities are.
(ii) It takes several weeks to launch each one of those attacks, in
terms of logistical support and travel time. How many locations are
there to hit? How long will it take Manticore to hit each of them at
least once? I would say certainly more than a couple of years, even
assuming they already know where they all are.
Right now, they are back to even. Manticore's Apollo will turn the
tide, but not soon.
Jerry
new generation Republican fission powered LAC's did have bow walls. If
the ship works, even if it only stood second line duties, it would free
up modern Alliance vessels for front line offensive duty.
Also, the Alliance has a history of refitting captured Peep warships for
use by the Alliance. There is no reason at all why that history will
change either.
forkliftramp.com
wrote:
actually they would make lovely gifts to your allies and could
probably be used as system pickets on a short term basis till manti or
grayson hulls come available.
Stoneface
<lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
>was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
>again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
>return fire.
Not only that but the real time guidance the Apollo/Keyhole systems
provide increases the manty's missile accuracy so much that a task
force of 24 Apollo SD(P)s has the offensive punch of a fleet of a
hundred or more of the current Haven SD(P)s. It may even be more than
that and like you said all that firepower is from beyond Haven ability
to shoot back.
Stoneface
<loua...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A friend of mine reviewed AAC in his live journal and complained that
>the strategic rules have entirely changed, with no reason given, since
>the start of the series. And not in a way (at least that he could see)
>based on the oodles of new technology floating around, either.
>
>To sum up: as I understand his gripe, he looked at the series of raids
>by (spoiler) going easily past the battle front deep into (spoiler)
>territory and asked, WTF have we been diddling around with astral
>geography for all this time? In what sense does a 'front line' system
>(e.g. Yeltsin) in any way protect an 'interior' system (e.g. Manticore)
>if the enemy can island-hop undetectably around the first one in
>hyperspace for a direct attack on the second one?
>
>Corrolary: if the maneuvers in AAC were always perfectly possible, why
>hasn't everyone been doing them from day one? He seems to feel that the
>only sensible uses of a fleet in that context are either protecting the
>home system, or going straight for the other guy's home system in a
>giant toe-to-toe sort of super-Jutland like Japan expected in WWII.
>
>I wasn't struck that way at all on my own reading of AAC. But now that
>it's been pointed out, I don't have an opposing argument either. Are he
>and I both missing something?
Haven did a bunch of commerce raiding, in Silesia early in the war
trying to draw down the manty forces, i think there was a book about
it . ; )
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Jerry <tekt...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2005 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." --John Gilmore
Loren Pechtel
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>And Haven has well over 100 wallers in their remaining fleet. And the
Manticore has the pickets from their other systems as well. Besides,
their fixed defenses should be able to cope with 100 wallers.
>>As for Haven's production--that should be easy to kill. It seems to
>>me that a BC(P) with Apollo should be able to take out a production
>>facility on it's own. Stay outside the hyper limit and send the
>>missiles in.
>
>(i) You need to know where they are. Manticore still doesn't know
>where Bolthole and a large number of Haven production facilities are.
Killing Bolthole will be a problem. The rest of it is not so much of
an issue.
>(ii) It takes several weeks to launch each one of those attacks, in
>terms of logistical support and travel time. How many locations are
>there to hit? How long will it take Manticore to hit each of them at
>least once? I would say certainly more than a couple of years, even
>assuming they already know where they all are.
Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
and hit several planets per mission.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:39:22 -0800, Loren Pechtel
><lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
>>was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
>>again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
>>return fire.
>
>Not only that but the real time guidance the Apollo/Keyhole systems
>provide increases the manty's missile accuracy so much that a task
>force of 24 Apollo SD(P)s has the offensive punch of a fleet of a
>hundred or more of the current Haven SD(P)s. It may even be more than
>that and like you said all that firepower is from beyond Haven ability
>to shoot back.
24 Apollo SD(P)s with enough ammo ships could punch out the Sollie
main fleet.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>The Havenite LACs are barely wroth scrapping for raw materials, and
>the other ships are obsolescent at best and would take considerable
>resources to refit to Apollo capability. Remember the bottleneck
>involved with converting the Andy Podnaughts? Plus there's the
>manning situation; Manty/Grayson designs have all that automation to
>free up crew strength for more ships.
Use them as defense for the fixed defenses. Don't even man the
offensive weapons systems.
Arturo Magidin
Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:05:43 +0000 (UTC), mag...@math.berkeley.edu
>(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
>>And Haven has well over 100 wallers in their remaining fleet. And the
>
>Manticore has the pickets from their other systems as well. Besides,
>their fixed defenses should be able to cope with 100 wallers.
The fixed defenses are by and large obsolete; they were only just
bringing the fixed defenses in Manticore up to modern standards. And a
system defended solely by fixed defenses is a sitting duck: they
can be completely disabled by ballistic fire from well outside their
range.
[.snip.]
>>(ii) It takes several weeks to launch each one of those attacks, in
>>terms of logistical support and travel time. How many locations are
>>there to hit? How long will it take Manticore to hit each of them at
>>least once? I would say certainly more than a couple of years, even
>>assuming they already know where they all are.
>
>Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
>and hit several planets per mission.
Planning. Scouting. Build-up of supplies. Logistics. None of these can
be simply ignored.
It was going to take about 2 months to prepare and launch the attack
on Jouett. While the marginal time needed for a second raid on the
same sortie is less than that needed for a fresh one, you cannot
assume it can be sent in just as easily. Attacking two targets would
probably take no less than 75-80 days preparation, and it means that
any scouting information you have on the second system will be that
much older when you go after it (having hit the first). Ammo ships are
not unlimited, either: how many do you need to have enough ammo to hit
two or three targets? You need to be able to fully reload after each
mission. How long does it take you to concentrate those supplies
before sending it out?
You are talking about 4-6 months preparations for a mission hitting 4
targets in a row, and each one becomes ever more risky: Apollo is no
good if you have no missilies or extensive damage.
David Simpson
@panix2.panix.com:
> In article <UMshf.141998$tD4....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com>,
> Jerry <tekt...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
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No, I think not trimming the post is worse, then top posting. lol
(Wish you post would have been longer, so what I did it would have looked
REALLY stupid. I've seen some 60 line post with 1 word added to the
bottom.)
--
____________________________________________
/ David Simpson \
| City of Heroes, Basic Stamp, RPGs, War Games |
| dsim...@NOnyxSPAM.net |
| http://www.nyx.net/~dsimpson |
\____________________________________________/
Jay Maynard
> No, I think not trimming the post is worse, then top posting. lol
Top-posting and bottom-posting without trimming are equally obnoxious. The
latter is mainly obnoxious because people use it as an excuse to top-post.
Top-posting is evil.
The right way to do it - as has been true for at least two decades - is to
trim your quote to just what you're replying to and reply right below the
quoted text...just like I've done here.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
http://www.conmicro.cx
http://www.tronguy.net (Yes, that's me!)
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com
Loren Pechtel
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>The fixed defenses are by and large obsolete; they were only just
>bringing the fixed defenses in Manticore up to modern standards. And a
>system defended solely by fixed defenses is a sitting duck: they
>can be completely disabled by ballistic fire from well outside their
>range.
The defenses of Sphinx were considered likely to be able to take
the remains of the first Havenite force. That means they're pretty
powerful.
>Planning. Scouting. Build-up of supplies. Logistics. None of these can
>be simply ignored.
The scouting can be done by destroyers acting independantly. You'll
want to harass every target anyway so they don't know where the real
ones are.
>It was going to take about 2 months to prepare and launch the attack
>on Jouett. While the marginal time needed for a second raid on the
>same sortie is less than that needed for a fresh one, you cannot
>assume it can be sent in just as easily. Attacking two targets would
>probably take no less than 75-80 days preparation, and it means that
>any scouting information you have on the second system will be that
>much older when you go after it (having hit the first). Ammo ships are
>not unlimited, either: how many do you need to have enough ammo to hit
>two or three targets? You need to be able to fully reload after each
>mission. How long does it take you to concentrate those supplies
>before sending it out?
Yes, you need a full load before each battle, or perhaps even use the
ammo ship itself as the podlayer like they did at Monica.
>You are talking about 4-6 months preparations for a mission hitting 4
>targets in a row, and each one becomes ever more risky: Apollo is no
>good if you have no missilies or extensive damage.
I'm not expecting any damage--the whole point of the tactic is never
to enter their hyper limits so they'll never be forced into battle.
Arturo Magidin
Loren Pechtel <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:05:29 +0000 (UTC), mag...@math.berkeley.edu
>(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
>>The fixed defenses are by and large obsolete; they were only just
>>bringing the fixed defenses in Manticore up to modern standards. And a
>>system defended solely by fixed defenses is a sitting duck: they
>>can be completely disabled by ballistic fire from well outside their
>>range.
>
> The defenses of Sphinx were considered likely to be able to take
>the remains of the first Havenite force. That means they're pretty
>powerful.
Because the first Havenite force was already in range and was
damaged.
You need mobile forces to support your fixed defenses; this prevents
the attacking force from simply doing what you suggest Manticore do:
sit outside the hyper limit and just pound the defenses. Fixed
defenses are highly vulnerable to proximity detonation and ballistic
attacks at high velocity, precisely because they cannot move. Even
assuming the anti-ballistic defenses work, all you have to do is shoot
until they are exhausted and then destroy the fixed defenses.
That's the point of having mobile units in addition to the forts and
mines. You need them so you can harass the attacking force, and force
it to either leave or come into range of the fixed
defenses. Otherwise, why did Manticore even ->have<- a Home Fleet in
the previous war, when they had powerful fixed forts that were
up-to-date and well-maintained?
>>Planning. Scouting. Build-up of supplies. Logistics. None of these can
>>be simply ignored.
>
>The scouting can be done by destroyers acting independantly. You'll
>want to harass every target anyway so they don't know where the real
>ones are.
Agreed. To a point.
>>It was going to take about 2 months to prepare and launch the attack
>>on Jouett. While the marginal time needed for a second raid on the
>>same sortie is less than that needed for a fresh one, you cannot
>>assume it can be sent in just as easily. Attacking two targets would
>>probably take no less than 75-80 days preparation, and it means that
>>any scouting information you have on the second system will be that
>>much older when you go after it (having hit the first). Ammo ships are
>>not unlimited, either: how many do you need to have enough ammo to hit
>>two or three targets? You need to be able to fully reload after each
>>mission. How long does it take you to concentrate those supplies
>>before sending it out?
>
>Yes, you need a full load before each battle, or perhaps even use the
>ammo ship itself as the podlayer like they did at Monica.
>
>>You are talking about 4-6 months preparations for a mission hitting 4
>>targets in a row, and each one becomes ever more risky: Apollo is no
>>good if you have no missilies or extensive damage.
>
>I'm not expecting any damage--the whole point of the tactic is never
>to enter their hyper limits so they'll never be forced into battle.
You still think this can be done easily with 8th Fleet alone? You are
simply ignoring the time frame involved. Remember the Havenites had a
list of about 25 "likely" targets for 8th Fleet during Cutworm. That's
about 20 targets still to be hit, and those are the secondary
ones. You still have the primary targets to hit. I don't think
Manticore even has the ammo ships to attempt this at one go, let alone
the missiles (which they certainly do not have yet). And then having
8th Fleet be gone for how long? A year or so while it goes around
hitting the targets.
During which time Haven is still building modern ships at a much
faster rate than Manticore. And after they get hit the second or third
time, why not send their new ships over to hit the now-undefended
Manticore?
deowll
<loua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1132785842.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
>
>> (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>>
>> >Haven committed about 80% of its wall of battle,
>> >which was then out of circulation for 3 weeks. It was a major risk,
>> >run only because the alternative was to wait until the entire
>> >Manticore fleet was refitted with the new weapons, and then be
>> >annihilated. It's not a risk you run lightly.
>>
>> something big happens Haven is defeated.
>
> overall military historian, but I've read a lot of Gordon Prange on
> WWII.)
>
> Although AAC did lay the groundwork for Haven having a whole lot of new
> ships in the pipeline, and we've already covered how Haven's military
> casualties have been tiny in proportion to their overall population. So
> not "Midway" from the war-of-attrition standpoint so much.
Both sides have been gutted but Manticore captured a lot of peep ships.
>
> Louann, who fancies nobody ever wanted to play poker with Spruance
> again after that.
>
deowll
"Stoneface" <Ston...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:j92ao11oj8kqd0a1c...@4ax.com...
>
>>> Yeah, they basically bet the farm on that raid. It failed. Unless
>>> something big happens Haven is defeated.
>>
>>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
>
> but they have 3 star nations building apollo capable ships. It won't
> be two long before they have their defenses straightened away and can
> free up offensive forces and when that happens Haven has nothing that
> can stop them and won't have for years (not that they will get years
> this time)
>>
>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>>different star nations).
>
It will play out as DW wishes. If the tech witch can do something to fritze
some of their advantage and has it on the new construction then things won't
go that way. I wouldn't count her out until DW puts it in type. Of course
both sides may get slightly side tracked but what ever MASA is up to. They
are planning some sort of military operation most likely going after their
escaped colony world and worm hole.
>>
>>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
>>
> They do have the single most powerful fleet in space, and it will be
> getting bigger so i think Manticore will stay the driving force in the
> Alliance.
deowll
"Jeffrey MacHott" <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:P5bhf.1588$1x.647@fed1read06...
> Don Sample wrote:
>> In article <X17hf.1555$1x.1539@fed1read06>,
>> Jeffrey MacHott <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the shock
>>>of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal battle in
>>>the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four different
>>>star nations).
>>
>>
>> Maybe the worst single day, but it pales in comparison to some of the
>> WW-II battles on the eastern front between the Axis and the Soviets.
>
> Well, I suppose I should have said space battles. But for sheer scale and
> intensity, I tend to doubt there was much in WWI or II to compare it to.
Those were real dead bodies.
deowll
"Jerry" <tekt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Julhf.230949$lI5....@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
> You might also want to rememember something else. Lester Tourville was
> forced to surrender sixty eight podnoughts, seven CLAC's and over three
> thousand LAC's at the end of the battle at Manticore. While some of those
> vessels would be damaged beyond repair, a substantial portion would be
> able to be refitted for Alliance use. This, in addition to the new
> construction Alliance SD(P)'s and the Andermani SD(P)'s being refitted
> will give the Alliance a substantial degree of assistance.
>
> Of course, they could end up returned to Republican service as well when
> Haven eventually joins with the Alliance to fight the real cause of this
> war.....Mesa, Manpower and their Solarian allies. Now this will be quite a
> conflict....uneasy allies fighting side by side against a ruthless
> juggernaut who is their common foe.
>
> Jerry
The ships are an issue. Nothing on board is going to be the same as what
Manticore uses. Trying to find some way to use them in a hurry would raise
serious issues about supply, training, equipment, etc. DW can play it any
way he wants.
deowll
"Taki Kogoma" <qu...@swcp.com> wrote in message
news:dm4rfp$kjc$1...@iruka.swcp.com...
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 16:02:49 GMT, Jerry <tekt...@aol.com>
> allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>>You might also want to rememember something else. Lester Tourville was
>>forced to surrender sixty eight podnoughts, seven CLAC's and over three
>>thousand LAC's at the end of the battle at Manticore. While some of
>>those vessels would be damaged beyond repair, a substantial portion
>>would be able to be refitted for Alliance use. This, in addition to the
>>new construction Alliance SD(P)'s and the Andermani SD(P)'s being
>>refitted will give the Alliance a substantial degree of assistance.
>
> The Havenite LACs are barely wroth scrapping for raw materials, and
> the other ships are obsolescent at best and would take considerable
> resources to refit to Apollo capability. Remember the bottleneck
> involved with converting the Andy Podnaughts? Plus there's the
> manning situation; Manty/Grayson designs have all that automation to
> free up crew strength for more ships.
I agree. Of course your back is against the wall. Your system almost got
taken out. You need ships disparately. You have captured a lot of enemy hard
ware. To the best of your knowledge it is as good as anything the other
side has.What are the odds you won't try to do something with it?
You do know that this is going to give them an incredible amount of
information in those Haven computers and on exactly what those ships can do.
The problem is the new stuff being built is going to be better in some
regards.
deowll
> You just never know.....besides the Andermani's haven't necessarily
> embraced the degree of automation that the Graysons and RMN have. I would
> hardly say that the new fission powered Republican LAC's are only worth
> scrapping. Every little bit helps....especially when there is an extreme
> lack of hulls available.
>
> Jerry
It's in situations like this that all sorts of improvised crap gets tried
that wouldn't even be considered normally. Hardware gets built that gets
scraped as soon as the pressure is off even a little. Maybe the Alliance
won't do this but Manticore is hurt.
deowll
If they can get a third of those ships battle ready by scrapping the rest
and use them to buffer some weak point even as they are they'd be smart to
do it. To the best of Manticore's knowledge they are equal to anything Haven
has.
I wouldn't bet on that being true of the next wave of ships but you use the
best you have available.
I can think of one ally who can use those ships as they are and most likely
get supplies for them from Haven though they wouldn't use those ships
against Haven. Just MASA. That would be a toot!
deowll
"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c0co1t2lqea2u3i8...@4ax.com...
Absolutely. If the location can be found in the captured computers or
squeezed out of a prisoner. Of course if the yard is next to a planet you
might need to get closer than you'd like and I think they have more than one
yard up and running now. Personally I'd bet there is some way to undo some
of that stealth. Anything using gravity waves to communicate should show up
like a bleeping beacon to the right detector.
deowll
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:39:24 -0600, Jeffrey MacHott
> <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>>They may have three star nations building Apollo capable ships, but even
>>combined they don't match the ship-building capability that Haven has.
>
> It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
> was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
> again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
> return fire.
>
> (and they should be figuring it out anyway). Future battles should
> pretty much go down like that raid where Harrington offered to let
> them scuttle and avoid battle.
>
>>Also recall that the Alliance has always had manpower problems, that's
>>not gonna be much better for them now that they've lost two entire
>>fleets in the same battle. Who's to say Haven can't pull together a
>>force big enough to start raiding shipyards in the systems where Honor's
>>Home Fleet isn't camping? Remember that hers IS still the only fleet
>>with Apollo.
>
> Not for long.
Maybe. It is up to DW. In the real world anything using a gravity wave to
communicate should be highly detectable. Take out those units and much of
the pretty stealth long range attack advantage goes poof!
deowll
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:37:02 -0600, Jeffrey MacHott
> <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>>Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
>>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
>>
>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>>different star nations).
>
> Time to refit Apollo.
>
> As for defending Manticore--against what? Their fixed defenses will
> hold against anything but the Sollies right now. All the Apollo ships
> should be out clobbering Havenite production facilities.
Great. That would leave their own ship yards wide open. Manticore has weak
fixed defenses or don't you remember?
As bad as things have gotten it might not have escaped them that Haven might
risk pissing off the Sollies and blow away three plants ending Manciore's
role in the war rather perminately. The Sollies might declare war but its a
long, long way from Sollie space to Haven. Block a few worm holes and the
Sollies might get tired and go away.
>
>>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
>
> Manticore has nearly as much firepower as pre-battle assuming they can
> repair/man those Havenite ships.
Repair, man, and supply with green crews using unfamiliar equipment that
doesn't meet their normal standard.
deowll
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:39:22 -0800, Loren Pechtel
> <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
>>was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
>>again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
>>return fire.
>
> Not only that but the real time guidance the Apollo/Keyhole systems
> provide increases the manty's missile accuracy so much that a task
> force of 24 Apollo SD(P)s has the offensive punch of a fleet of a
> hundred or more of the current Haven SD(P)s. It may even be more than
> that and like you said all that firepower is from beyond Haven ability
> to shoot back.
Just as long as the tech witch or some other doesn't come up with answers to
some of its tricks.
deowll
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 19:05:43 +0000 (UTC), mag...@math.berkeley.edu
> (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
>>And Haven has well over 100 wallers in their remaining fleet. And the
>
> Manticore has the pickets from their other systems as well. Besides,
> their fixed defenses should be able to cope with 100 wallers.
Now that I would bet against. The static defense was never meant to stand
alone and the fortresses haven't been upgraded nearly as much as the fleet.
My money is that 100 wallers given free run could take out at least one
planet. They could certainly run everything else to ground and start a siege
while blocking all traffic through the wormholes. I don't think Manticore
could live with that very well.
>
>>>As for Haven's production--that should be easy to kill. It seems to
>>>me that a BC(P) with Apollo should be able to take out a production
>>>facility on it's own. Stay outside the hyper limit and send the
>>>missiles in.
>>
>>(i) You need to know where they are. Manticore still doesn't know
>>where Bolthole and a large number of Haven production facilities are.
>
> Killing Bolthole will be a problem. The rest of it is not so much of
> an issue.
Assuming you are willing to let Haven park a fleet in your system and close
down all commerce and you static defense can stop 100 ships of the wall. I
wouldn't go for a deal like that myself. It would be political sucide even
if it worked.
>
>>(ii) It takes several weeks to launch each one of those attacks, in
>>terms of logistical support and travel time. How many locations are
>>there to hit? How long will it take Manticore to hit each of them at
>>least once? I would say certainly more than a couple of years, even
>>assuming they already know where they all are.
>
> Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
> and hit several planets per mission.
Which means you stay gone a real long time and might show up back home to
learn home had changed hands.
deowll
"Arturo Magidin" <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:dmaivv$1cti$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
Or just block all traffic through the system thus killing the ecomony dead
as a door nail. No amount of static defense at the junctions is going to
allow traffic between the junctions.
Heck the Sollies might even see that as a reason to try and take over the
portals in the name of international commerce.
Taki Kogoma
allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>"Stoneface" <Ston...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:lf2do1p1ht50qadlh...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 10:39:22 -0800, Loren Pechtel
>> <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>It doesn't matter. Apollo is a bigger jump above the MDM as the MDM
>>>was above the standard missile. It's Buttercup all over
>>>again--Manticore can engage from beyond the range that Haven can
>>>return fire.
>>
>> Not only that but the real time guidance the Apollo/Keyhole systems
>> provide increases the manty's missile accuracy so much that a task
>> force of 24 Apollo SD(P)s has the offensive punch of a fleet of a
>> hundred or more of the current Haven SD(P)s. It may even be more than
>> that and like you said all that firepower is from beyond Haven ability
>> to shoot back.
>
>Just as long as the tech witch or some other doesn't come up with answers to
>some of its tricks.
I'm pretty sure Shannon's working on the problem; her handicap is that
all she has sensor records.
Gym "And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sonja Hemphill hasn't assiged a
tiger team to work on it either." Quirk
Taki Kogoma
allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
It occurs to me that the heaviest blow against the Havenites wrt the
Battle of Manticore may be the loss -- either dead or captured -- of
all the well-trained commanders and crews assigned to Beatrice.
(Presumably, if you're going to go for a knock-out punch, you send in
the First Team.)
Loren Pechtel
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>> The defenses of Sphinx were considered likely to be able to take
>>the remains of the first Havenite force. That means they're pretty
>>powerful.
>
>Because the first Havenite force was already in range and was
>damaged.
True--you can't use the fixed defenses alone. I'm saying the captured
Havenite ships protect the fixed defenses so they can engage anybody
new that shows up. This should be able to deal with the entire
current Havenite wall of battle.
>You need mobile forces to support your fixed defenses; this prevents
>the attacking force from simply doing what you suggest Manticore do:
>sit outside the hyper limit and just pound the defenses. Fixed
>defenses are highly vulnerable to proximity detonation and ballistic
>attacks at high velocity, precisely because they cannot move. Even
>assuming the anti-ballistic defenses work, all you have to do is shoot
>until they are exhausted and then destroy the fixed defenses.
Haven doesn't have Apollo. Their strikes would be ballistic, easy
pickings even if they were willing to risk an Erandi violation (and
that's something I don't think they would do in an attack like that.
Shooting back at launchers while your missiles are still controlled is
bad enough when they are close to a planet, but ballistic strikes???)
You can simply line up the ships and let each one use it's laser
clusters on the inbounds. You don't need the missiles at all.
>defenses. Otherwise, why did Manticore even ->have<- a Home Fleet in
>the previous war, when they had powerful fixed forts that were
>up-to-date and well-maintained?
The forts were for the junctions, not the planets.
>>I'm not expecting any damage--the whole point of the tactic is never
>>to enter their hyper limits so they'll never be forced into battle.
>
>You still think this can be done easily with 8th Fleet alone? You are
>simply ignoring the time frame involved. Remember the Havenites had a
>list of about 25 "likely" targets for 8th Fleet during Cutworm. That's
>about 20 targets still to be hit, and those are the secondary
>ones. You still have the primary targets to hit. I don't think
>Manticore even has the ammo ships to attempt this at one go, let alone
>the missiles (which they certainly do not have yet). And then having
>8th Fleet be gone for how long? A year or so while it goes around
>hitting the targets.
That's not what I'm saying to do. I'm saying to send destroyers to
everyplace that might reasonably be a target. Then send out the
Apollo ships of 8th fleet probably in pairs although they could even
operate independantly and send along an ammo ship with them. When
they get to a system they ask the destroyer what juicy targets are
around. Any wallers or military shipyards get hit, nothing else. Then
go on to the next system.
It used to be that sort of tactic didn't work because you had to enter
the hyper limit in order to fight. Now, however, Manticore can snipe
from outside the hyper limit. The balance of offense/defense has been
*RADICALLY* changed.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>The ships are an issue. Nothing on board is going to be the same as what
>Manticore uses. Trying to find some way to use them in a hurry would raise
>serious issues about supply, training, equipment, etc. DW can play it any
>way he wants.
But Manticore has been refitting Havenite ships for a long time. I'm
sure they know what they need to do in order to get them working.
I also expect a lot of the refitting would be done by salvaing pieces
from other ships.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>Absolutely. If the location can be found in the captured computers or
>squeezed out of a prisoner. Of course if the yard is next to a planet you
>might need to get closer than you'd like and I think they have more than one
>yard up and running now. Personally I'd bet there is some way to undo some
>of that stealth. Anything using gravity waves to communicate should show up
>like a bleeping beacon to the right detector.
With Apollo you don't risk Erandi problems. Aim a safe distance
beside the planet and only close on the second stage and make sure the
path never crosses the planet.
As for spotting the communcations:
1) It's already possible at close enough range--note what happened
in Saganami. They were concerned about communications being detected.
2) It won't help against Apollo--the missiles don't *NEED*
communcations while they are closing. When they do their final
engagements they're spotted anyway by their drives.
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Eridani
--
--- Aahz <*> (Copyright 2005 by aa...@pobox.com)
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/
Androgynous poly kinky vanilla queer het Pythonista
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." --John Gilmore
David Simpson
news:slrndoh31h....@thebrain.conmicro.cx:
I agree, was just showing how bad not trimming is. Matter of fact, I also
agree about top posting, but peopel being people, there are stupid and lazy
ones all around, and I'm not sure our complaining will do any good. Now if
we could shoot them for doing it ...
David Simpson
CD0207.095...@news.west.cox.net:
> I prefer interlinear posting when one is responding to more than one
> point in the message.
Oops, thought that was implied.
I have a great many friends that if I send them 1 email with 10 questions,
I'll get 1 answer back. If I send 10 emails with 1 question each, they'll
complain about all the emails! You just can't win with some people.
Mean Green Dancing Machine
David Simpson <dsim...@NOnyx.SPAMnet> wrote:
>Jay Maynard <jmay...@thebrain.conmicro.cx> wrote in
>news:slrndoh31h....@thebrain.conmicro.cx:
>>
>> below the quoted text...just like I've done here.
>
>I agree, was just showing how bad not trimming is. Matter of fact, I also
>agree about top posting, but peopel being people, there are stupid and lazy
>ones all around, and I'm not sure our complaining will do any good. Now if
>we could shoot them for doing it ...
Or we could just killfile them. But I figure a warning is only fair.
David Simpson
news:dmbg43$n75$1...@panix3.panix.com:
> Or we could just killfile them. But I figure a warning is only fair.
Problem, it doesn't remove them from the gene pool. You'll just get more
of them! Remeber, long term fixes are better, wouldn't want something like
that is the MESA gene pool if they take over!!!!!
Mean Green Dancing Machine
David Simpson <dsim...@NOnyx.SPAMnet> wrote:
>aa...@pobox.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) wrote in
>news:dmbg43$n75$1...@panix3.panix.com:
>>
>> Or we could just killfile them. But I figure a warning is only fair.
>
>Problem, it doesn't remove them from the gene pool. You'll just get more
>of them! Remeber, long term fixes are better, wouldn't want something like
>that is the MESA gene pool if they take over!!!!!
Overtrimming that removes context is almost as bad as undertrimming.
How is anyone supposed to know who "them" is?
forkliftramp.com
wrote:
>
>Great. That would leave their own ship yards wide open. Manticore has weak
>fixed defenses or don't you remember?
>As bad as things have gotten it might not have escaped them that Haven might
>risk pissing off the Sollies and blow away three plants ending Manciore's
>role in the war rather perminately. The Sollies might declare war but its a
>long, long way from Sollie space to Haven. Block a few worm holes and the
>Sollies might get tired and go away.
this would be completely out of character for the folks running haven
currently despite what the manties may fear.
--
"Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp,
panicky half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete,
fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence
never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the
other guys are all dead."
Jeffrey MacHott
> No, I think not trimming the post is worse, then top posting. lol
>
> (Wish you post would have been longer, so what I did it would have looked
> REALLY stupid. I've seen some 60 line post with 1 word added to the
> bottom.)
It's even worse than one-liner replies with multi-line sigs.
Jeffrey MacHott
> On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 17:37:02 -0600, Jeffrey MacHott
> <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Something big like two of Manticore's primary battle fleets (including
>>their Home Fleet) being completley destroyed in their own home system,
>>along with many of their most experienced and skilled commanders, and
>>the primary offensive force of the Manticoran Alliance (8th Fleet) now
>>having to defend Manticore against another possible attack?
>>
>>At the moment, it looks like the war will hit a big pause as both sides
>>try to recover from their losses and more or less just get over the
>>shock of what has just happened (the largest, arguably most brutal
>>battle in the history of mankind, involving the fighting forces of four
>>different star nations).
>
>
> Time to refit Apollo.
>
> As for defending Manticore--against what? Their fixed defenses will
> hold against anything but the Sollies right now. All the Apollo ships
> should be out clobbering Havenite production facilities.
Practical considerations are irrelevant when it comes to the politics of
defending the homeworld, especially in a democratic government. They
have to keep Honor's Home Fleet in Manticore to defend against any other
attacks because if they don't, the people of the SKM will drag the
Alexander Government over the coals.
>>This will no doubt have huge implications for the Alliance as well. It
>>is now apparant that the Havenites are willing to not only attack
>>Alliance homeworlds (Grayson, Alizon, Zanzibar, and Marsh have all been
>>the targets of raids of varying sucess) but Manticore itself. Even
>>though Admirals D'Orville, Kuzak, and Harrington were able to defeat the
>>attacking force and capture a substantial portion of it, Manticore, I'm
>>betting, may not have the fighting power to justify it's leading role in
>>the Alliance, although the Junction still makes Manticore a logical
>>place for an alliance HQ, when it all comes down to it.
>
>
> Manticore has nearly as much firepower as pre-battle assuming they can
> repair/man those Havenite ships.
Which is a big assumption since not only do we have to worry about any
damage the ships have sustained, but also take into account that this is
a fleet that nobody in the Manticoran Navy has any kind of real
experience and training with. If a Manticoran-crewed fleet of Havenite
wallers went up against an equivilant sized force of Havenite-crewed
Havenite wallers, I wouldn't be suprised if the Manties got their butts
kicked "up between their ears".
Then once you've dealt with the training issue, where do you find the
bullets for the damn things? Order them from Haven via FedEx next-day
delivery? We're talking massive refits just to make the ships work with
Manticoran weapons, assuming that Havenite missiles don't just happen to
be the same size as Manticoran missiles (and we know they aren't). It
will still be months before the captured Havenite ships can be used as a
fleet, assuming they are refitted at all any time soon (presumably all
of Manticore's shipyard space is already being used to build and refit
and repair their own ships).
What I'm curious about is Grayson. They might try dispatching the
Protector's Own again, but I'm willing to bet they're pretty weary of
uncovering their planet as well, though the Protector's Own is
presumably seperate from whatever Home Fleet they may have.
Jeffrey MacHott
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:21:49 -0600, "deowll" <deo...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> this would be completely out of character for the folks running haven
> currently despite what the manties may fear.
True, but what the Manties fear is going to be rather dominant in their
decision-making processes when planning for a defense against the
Havenites. The Havenites HAVE used planetary bombardment before (When
Admiral McQueen was putting down the Leveler Coup, she used an orbital
kinetic strike to neutralize the defenses in the area so her pinnaces
could get into attack range.) That said, I'm not sure if anybody
outside of Haven even KNOWS that happened (the kinetic strikes, I'd be
willing to be they'd caught wiff of the Leveler Coup attempt by now).
deowll
Um, my understanding is that they are closing for a long, long way at the
present. The same can be said for when the "final egagement" starts. Once
your create a gravity field the only thing that could mask it is a stronger
gravity field. You can target a gravity field. DW may or may not ignore
that. I think he has already been ignoring it.
deowll
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:10:23 +0000 (UTC), mag...@math.berkeley.edu
> (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
>
>>> The defenses of Sphinx were considered likely to be able to take
>>>the remains of the first Havenite force. That means they're pretty
>>>powerful.
>>
>>Because the first Havenite force was already in range and was
>>damaged.
>
> True--you can't use the fixed defenses alone. I'm saying the captured
> Havenite ships protect the fixed defenses so they can engage anybody
> new that shows up. This should be able to deal with the entire
> current Havenite wall of battle.
Depending on what new tech the tech witch came up with.
>
>>You need mobile forces to support your fixed defenses; this prevents
>>the attacking force from simply doing what you suggest Manticore do:
>>sit outside the hyper limit and just pound the defenses. Fixed
>>defenses are highly vulnerable to proximity detonation and ballistic
>>attacks at high velocity, precisely because they cannot move. Even
>>assuming the anti-ballistic defenses work, all you have to do is shoot
>>until they are exhausted and then destroy the fixed defenses.
>
> Haven doesn't have Apollo. Their strikes would be ballistic, easy
> pickings even if they were willing to risk an Erandi violation (and
> that's something I don't think they would do in an attack like that.
> Shooting back at launchers while your missiles are still controlled is
> bad enough when they are close to a planet, but ballistic strikes???)
> You can simply line up the ships and let each one use it's laser
> clusters on the inbounds. You don't need the missiles at all.
One very serious point. Real stealth on a ballistic missile is passive.
Nothing shows. Nothing is radiated. The first the target knows about it is
impact.
What DW has been using is jamming combined with stealth. Jamming is a
totally different animal. You know the target is there but you can't get a
lock on it. A truly high speed ballistic strike isn't going to show you jack
until you have less than a fraction of a second left to do something at the
speeds these missiles travel and the momentum carries much more energy than
the warhead. The only things I can thing of to prevent being hit is dodge or
use the magic wedge.
Let me be honest here. If I were Haven and Manticore tried what you
suggested the Sollies could do what they want with the Erandi violation. I'd
blow three freaking planets then shoot the "rebels" that did it. I hope this
doesn't shock you two much. Maybe there is even such a thing as a star
killer. Then I might have two system wide accidents. That might kill the
worm holes as well. With out them any Sollies that show up are going to be a
very long way from home.
Pease understand. If my people were in the position of Haven when Manticore
started taking your advice I'd volunteer to do the job, stand trail, and be
shot.
deowll
I've already noted refit by salvage. You aren't going to last long as a
combat force doing that. They've had experience with older ships. I'm not
sure how much because I don't think they actually kept any in their own
service. In other words I doubt how much practice they've had converting
Havenite ships for their own use. I think the answer is non. Grayson may
have done it. I'm not sure.
Of course Grayson ship yards aren't very handy.
deowll
"forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knows...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:dhmjo1tk6123oo3kq...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:21:49 -0600, "deowll" <deo...@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Great. That would leave their own ship yards wide open. Manticore has weak
>>fixed defenses or don't you remember?
>>As bad as things have gotten it might not have escaped them that Haven
>>might
>>risk pissing off the Sollies and blow away three plants ending Manciore's
>>role in the war rather perminately. The Sollies might declare war but its
>>a
>>long, long way from Sollie space to Haven. Block a few worm holes and the
>>Sollies might get tired and go away.
>
>
> this would be completely out of character for the folks running haven
> currently despite what the manties may fear.
It is not out of character for anyone with their backs against the wall and
the survival of their nation, everybody and everything they know and love,
on the line. When it comes to dieing and the choice is your people or my
people the choice is always going to be your people. Of course as long it is
just pretend feel free to think people are alteristic enough to decide to
let your side win.
deowll
"Jeffrey MacHott" <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:aEBif.2379$1x.712@fed1read06...
Of course they will have some free ship yard space because a lot ships have
retired perminately. I don't know how much that helps.
>
> What I'm curious about is Grayson. They might try dispatching the
> Protector's Own again, but I'm willing to bet they're pretty weary of
> uncovering their planet as well, though the Protector's Own is presumably
> seperate from whatever Home Fleet they may have.
>
Do they have the new super weapons? No? Only the newest hulls out of
Manticore. To bad. Um, Maybe some of Grayson's newest hulls might.
deowll
> forkliftramp.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:21:49 -0600, "deowll" <deo...@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> this would be completely out of character for the folks running haven
>> currently despite what the manties may fear.
>
> True, but what the Manties fear is going to be rather dominant in their
> decision-making processes when planning for a defense against the
> Havenites. The Havenites HAVE used planetary bombardment before (When
> Admiral McQueen was putting down the Leveler Coup, she used an orbital
> kinetic strike to neutralize the defenses in the area so her pinnaces
> could get into attack range.) That said, I'm not sure if anybody outside
> of Haven even KNOWS that happened (the kinetic strikes, I'd be willing to
> be they'd caught wiff of the Leveler Coup attempt by now).
The guys from Masada were willing as well. If some of their escaped ships
crews some how got a new high tech ship they might be willing to unload
everything at Grayson or Manticore from long range. Maybe a load of missiles
and their old ships. Even if the defense stopped them it sure would give the
locals a case of the shakes.
John Campbell
> I've already noted refit by salvage. You aren't going to last long as a
> combat force doing that. They've had experience with older ships. I'm not
> sure how much because I don't think they actually kept any in their own
> service. In other words I doubt how much practice they've had converting
> Havenite ships for their own use. I think the answer is non. Grayson may
> have done it. I'm not sure.
> Of course Grayson ship yards aren't very handy.
Grayson's certainly done it. The SDs that Honor commanded at
Fourth Yeltsin were refitted Peep ships that White Haven captured at
Third Yeltsin.
Building a superdreadnought seems to be a significant enough
undertaking that re-using the hull, even if you can't re-use much more
than that, is a worthwhile savings of time and effort. (Assuming that
you *can* re-use the hull... it doesn't seem to be possible to convert a
conventional SD to a hollow-core podlayer.)
LACs are probably not worth the effort... easier just to build a
new one. Somewhere between the LACs and the SD(P)s there's a break-even
point, where you want to scrap everything smaller than that and refit
everything bigger.
--
John Campbell
jcam...@lynn.ci-n.com
Per Trygve Myhrer
"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> skrev i melding
news:0mfeo191j4qd8qt8f...@4ax.com...
>
> Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
> and hit several planets per mission.
My thought also. I cant understand why Honor did not do that in the hit on
Lovat and whent on and took out Haven or a lot of their home fleet if they
could not take it out.
Arturo Magidin
Per Trygve Myhrer <per.t...@c2i.net> wrote:
>
>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> skrev i melding
>news:0mfeo191j4qd8qt8f...@4ax.com...
>>
>> Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
>> and hit several planets per mission.
>
>My thought also. I cant understand why Honor did not do that in the hit on
>Lovat and whent on and took out Haven or a lot of their home fleet if they
>could not take it out.
Lovat was the first live test of Apollo; they had no idea how it would
actually perform in the field. One of the most important purposes of
Lovat was also to get the tactical information on Apollo's performance
back to the Admiralty for evaluation.
It exceeded their expectations, but they had no way of knowing that
when they set out. In addition, there was a bottle neck on Apollo
production that, according to Caparelli, they were only just beginning
to work out of when Honor returned from Lovat. They didn't have the
birds for such a mission.
Don Sample
For things like Apollo, Honor was shooting the missiles just as fast as
they were making them. She would have had to wait around longer between
strikes to build up enough reserves to be able to fill a collier with
them.
With her fly out, hit someone, fly back MO by the time she got back, and
had any required repairs and maintenance done on her ships, there were
enough new missiles built for her to go do it again.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>I've already noted refit by salvage. You aren't going to last long as a
>combat force doing that. They've had experience with older ships. I'm not
>sure how much because I don't think they actually kept any in their own
>service. In other words I doubt how much practice they've had converting
>Havenite ships for their own use. I think the answer is non. Grayson may
>have done it. I'm not sure.
>Of course Grayson ship yards aren't very handy.
Honor is a multi-billionaire. While some of that is from investment a
good chunk is from prizes--and you only get prize money if the
government buys the ship into service.
Is she going to be a trillionaire after this?
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>> 2) It won't help against Apollo--the missiles don't *NEED*
>> communcations while they are closing. When they do their final
>> engagements they're spotted anyway by their drives.
>
>Um, my understanding is that they are closing for a long, long way at the
>present. The same can be said for when the "final egagement" starts. Once
>your create a gravity field the only thing that could mask it is a stronger
>gravity field. You can target a gravity field. DW may or may not ignore
>that. I think he has already been ignoring it.
What I'm saying is that while an Apollo missile is drifting after the
first stage burns out there's nothing to detect. Other than sending
back sensor information there's no communication and if you should
have a good enough idea of your target that you don't need that during
the drift phase. When the communications comes active so does the
second stage of the missile and at that point everyone sees them
anyway.
Loren Pechtel
<Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote:
>True, but what the Manties fear is going to be rather dominant in their
>decision-making processes when planning for a defense against the
>Havenites. The Havenites HAVE used planetary bombardment before (When
>Admiral McQueen was putting down the Leveler Coup, she used an orbital
>kinetic strike to neutralize the defenses in the area so her pinnaces
>could get into attack range.) That said, I'm not sure if anybody
>outside of Haven even KNOWS that happened (the kinetic strikes, I'd be
>willing to be they'd caught wiff of the Leveler Coup attempt by now).
Kinetic strikes like that aren't going to cause problems with the
Sollies anyway. It's indiscriminate bombardment that will piss them
off.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>The guys from Masada were willing as well. If some of their escaped ships
>crews some how got a new high tech ship they might be willing to unload
>everything at Grayson or Manticore from long range. Maybe a load of missiles
>and their old ships. Even if the defense stopped them it sure would give the
>locals a case of the shakes.
Yeah, Masada is scary. There's probably plenty of them who would 9/11
Grayson. Hyper in a light-month out, accelerate and then drift. A
few days out accelerate to perhaps .9c. (Yes, I know the screens
can't handle it--put plenty of mass forward and it's a one-way trip
anyway.) It would make the dinosaur killer look like a firecracker.
Loren Pechtel
wrote:
>> What I'm curious about is Grayson. They might try dispatching the
>> Protector's Own again, but I'm willing to bet they're pretty weary of
>> uncovering their planet as well, though the Protector's Own is presumably
>> seperate from whatever Home Fleet they may have.
>>
>
>Do they have the new super weapons? No? Only the newest hulls out of
>Manticore. To bad. Um, Maybe some of Grayson's newest hulls might.
I would think Grayson would have been very active in refitting Apollo
to anything that could handle it. They tend to be ahead of Manticore
in the actual deployment of the new stuff.
Jerry
ships for their own use. All of the SD's that Honor had available during
the climactic battle in Field of Dishonor were former Havenite
warships. These weren't even all of the former Havenite SD's available
at the time because others were sent out to reinforce White Haven's
fleet. Another example is the original ships assigned to the Protector's
Own. They were also all former Havenite warships that Honor had
captured. Therefore your supposition that Manticore has had little to
no experience in refitting captured Havenite warships is completely
false. Captured Havenite warships were certainly in service in
significant numbers in both the Grayson and Manticore navies. I only
mentioned a few of the numerous examples in the Honor Harrington novels.
There are certainly many more there.
Tony Zbaraschuk
I think that at this point they were too short of Apollo missiles to
do that (if they'd had enough missiles to stage extra raids, they'd
have had enough missiles to do multiple simultaneous raids).
Tony Z
--
Despair was kudzu.
--_Atlanta Nights_, Travis Tea
Arturo Magidin
Jerry <tekt...@aol.com> wrote:
>Actually, Manticore has a great deal of practice converting Havenite
>ships for their own use. All of the SD's that Honor had available during
> the climactic battle in Field of Dishonor were former Havenite warships.
I ->think<- you are thinking of the climactic battle of "Flag in
Exile", where Honor is indeed commanding, for the GSN, a squadron of
converted Havenite SD's.
I don't think there even is a climactic battle in Field of Dishonor,
unless you mean the one in the dueling fields. Honor goes back to
Manticore on a damaged _Nike_ for repairs and assigned under White
Haven. Part of the reason they won't ship her out when things start
getting hairy is that if they transfer her off _Nike_ it will be seen
as a demotion; and she never manages to ship off before the duel and
she gets beached.
Jeffrey MacHott
> I've already noted refit by salvage. You aren't going to last long as a
> combat force doing that. They've had experience with older ships. I'm not
> sure how much because I don't think they actually kept any in their own
> service. In other words I doubt how much practice they've had converting
> Havenite ships for their own use. I think the answer is non. Grayson may
> have done it. I'm not sure.
> Of course Grayson ship yards aren't very handy.
As far as older ships are concerned, the Royal Manticoran Navy used
Dreadnoughts at least as late as the beginning of the current war
(Honor's Sidemore force included 14 Dreadnoughts, IIRC, which made up
the Manticoran Navy's entire compliment of DNs at the time). Also,
there are numerous examples of older skirmisher ships being used in
various roles (most notably HMS Warlock, which fought in the Battle of
Monica in The Shadow of Saganami).
There are several cases where Havenite ships have been refitted for use
in Alliance forces. Grayson in particular has done this on a number of
occasions (Honor's entire complement of Superdreadnoughts in Flag in
Exile was made up of formerly Havenite Superdreadnoughts, refitted to
use the latest of Manticoran technology, and the Protector's Own was
initially made up entirely of captured Havenite warships.)
It's really not a question of IF they can refit the ships, but IF it
will be worth the trouble for them. They might decide it is, they might
decide it isn't, but the fact is, any of Tourville's ships that they
refit will have to use yardspace that was previously being used for
building or refitting a Manticoran warship.
Jeffrey MacHott
Well, I seem to recall that when hitting targets that are located within
civilian population centers, you needed to give the civvies a reasonable
amount of time to get out of the way, which I'm thinking didn't happen
here. In any case, either the Sollies didn't hear about it, or decided
it wasn't worth their attention.
Jeffrey MacHott
> "Jeffrey MacHott" <Ragul...@netzero.net> wrote in message
<snipped because the previous poster didn't>
It
>>will still be months before the captured Havenite ships can be used as a
>>fleet, assuming they are refitted at all any time soon (presumably all of
>>Manticore's shipyard space is already being used to build and refit and
>>repair their own ships).
>
>
> Of course they will have some free ship yard space because a lot ships have
> retired perminately. I don't know how much that helps.
>
If you're referring to Home Fleet and 3rd Fleet, it's worth pointing out
that none of the ships destroyed in either fleet were taking up any of
hte aforementioned yard space. If anything, this only makes the
situation worse because of all the damaged surviving ships (most, if not
all of them from 3rd Fleet)
>
>>What I'm curious about is Grayson. They might try dispatching the
>>Protector's Own again, but I'm willing to bet they're pretty weary of
>>uncovering their planet as well, though the Protector's Own is presumably
>>seperate from whatever Home Fleet they may have.
>>
>
>
> Do they have the new super weapons? No? Only the newest hulls out of
> Manticore. To bad. Um, Maybe some of Grayson's newest hulls might.
>
Well, 8th Fleet didn't have the new weapons either until very recently.
The Graysons might risk a force against a target that's less likely to
have a mousetrap force waiting if it means putting the Havenites further
back on their heels.
forkliftramp.com
wrote:
>>
>>
>> this would be completely out of character for the folks running haven
>> currently despite what the manties may fear.
>
>It is not out of character for anyone with their backs against the wall and
>the survival of their nation, everybody and everything they know and love,
>on the line. When it comes to dieing and the choice is your people or my
>people the choice is always going to be your people. Of course as long it is
>just pretend feel free to think people are alteristic enough to decide to
>let your side win.
the situation is nowhere near as dire for haven as you would paint it.
it's not like the manties are going to burn off your planets or even
inflict civilian casualties other than as accidents. the worst haven
faces is a crushing military defeat and unfavourable peace terms.
manitcore lacks the ability to bite off any meaningful chunks of haven
as they just don't have the population for that sort of thing.
it would suck for haven to lose but it's certainly not the end of
their existance.
deowll
"John Campbell" <jcam...@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote in message
news:jw1jf.13066$F73.9406@trnddc03...
I think I can recall one medium sized hull that was refited because the
drives were worth more than you could sell the ship for as scrap.
>
> --
> John Campbell
> jcam...@lynn.ci-n.com
>
deowll
"Per Trygve Myhrer" <per.t...@c2i.net> wrote in message
news:RO1jf.8407$qE.18...@juliett.dax.net...
It might suggest that for some reason not shared with us she didn't think
she could do much that was useful at Haven.
In fact if you could do a successful raid on Haven logic suggests you would
hit it first.
deowll
"Arturo Magidin" <mag...@math.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:dmic54$2imm$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> In article <RO1jf.8407$qE.18...@juliett.dax.net>,
> Per Trygve Myhrer <per.t...@c2i.net> wrote:
>>
>>"Loren Pechtel" <lorenp...@remove.hotmail.com> skrev i melding
>>news:0mfeo191j4qd8qt8f...@4ax.com...
>
>>>
>>> Who says the raids need to be independant. Bring along an ammo ship
>>> and hit several planets per mission.
>>
>>My thought also. I cant understand why Honor did not do that in the hit on
>>Lovat and whent on and took out Haven or a lot of their home fleet if they
>>could not take it out.
>
> Lovat was the first live test of Apollo; they had no idea how it would
> actually perform in the field. One of the most important purposes of
> Lovat was also to get the tactical information on Apollo's performance
> back to the Admiralty for evaluation.
>
> It exceeded their expectations, but they had no way of knowing that
> when they set out. In addition, there was a bottle neck on Apollo
> production that, according to Caparelli, they were only just beginning
> to work out of when Honor returned from Lovat. They didn't have the
> birds for such a mission.
And if they lacked the birds before Honor emptied all those tubes they
absolutely don't have the birds now.
The might try running some sort of bluff.
deowll
True. My question is how do you keep from having your talking gravity
producing units be as consicious as a burning gas well on a dark night? DW
did note in a way that having them taken out would be a bad thing.